CZM Book Club: Hermetica, by Alan Lea, Part One

Margaret reads you a modern speculative fiction novella written in the classic style that she thinks you'll like.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone Media book Club book Club book Club. Hello
and welcome to cools On Media book Club, the only
book club where you don't have to do the reading
because I do it for you. I'm your host, Margaret Kiljoy,
and I've been promising you big things the coals On
Media book Club for months now. I've been saying big

(00:25):
things just around the corner, and you're starting to think
Margaret's just saying that to have something to say, but
it wasn't true. I was thinking about big things and
the main purpose of those big things is that I'm
excited about a bunch of new content that we've got
for you. And we're starting that new content this very

(00:49):
week because this week I'm going to be reading you
and novella. Well, okay, over the next several weeks, I'm
going to be reading You and Novella. And I didn't
even write it. I'm going to be reading you. Hermetica
by Alan Lee and it was published by Detritus Books
in twenty twenty one. Alan Lee is a pen name.

(01:09):
It's the speculative fiction pen name for an author you
might already know about, and if you don't, you could
come to know about. Named Peter Gelderlos and Peter Gelderlos
is the author of a bunch of nonfiction books you
might have already read, including The Solutions Are Already Here
and How Nonviolence Protects the State, and a lot of

(01:30):
stuff that talks about the formation of states and movement
strategy and all kinds of things. But this is Alan
Lee's debut novella. But if you want to find more
from Peter, you can find his essays, his rants, his analysis,
and his missives on substack at Surviving Levia Fan or

(01:50):
if you just search Peter Gelderlos, which is Peter g
elder Loos, and you can find all that on somebs stuck.
It's a good substock. I subscribe to it. Hermetica by
Alan Lee one. It was when Days found a sheet

(02:12):
of tree fiber inside the wall, stamped with black ink
and the likeness of words, words referring to Earth, that
they realized things did not add up. Why had they
pried open the wall panel in their module in the
first place. Destruction of one's module was destruction of hermetica itself,
And no behavior was more selfish, more dangerous than sabotage.

(02:36):
Of course, Snookums had started it scratching at the panel,
not that that would count as a mitigating factor in
any reconciliation processed. Days might be invited to join to
address the sabotage. Snookums was a cat, a fugitive, almost
certainly inexplicable, at least for the moment, but at the
end of the day, a cat, therefore not a citizen,

(03:01):
therefore not party to reconciliation processes. In fact, the relevant
agreements would probably class Snookum's misdeed as negligent sabotage on
Day's watch, even though Snookums was not assigned to Days
did not even appear to be in the system. Days
had permitted the cat into the module, had watched as

(03:23):
the cat scratched fervently at the wall, had joined in
the destructive enterprise, and now everything was unraveling at a
terrifying speed. When Days was younger, they knew they wanted
to work on the sky. The day Snookums appeared. The
sky was a perfect azure and argent dome. It was

(03:44):
oppressive in its glory. Days wanted to reach out to
touch it, to paint a little wisp of cloud just there,
but they were not allowed. The sky was the domain
of others who had been judged and found more worthy.
Summarily unfair that a single exam had reduced Days to
a peon. After staring a moment longer at the exquisite sky,

(04:08):
Days let their head fall chest to chin and trudged
off down the block. Days had dosed that morning, but
still they could not summon the will to smile a
greeting to the people they passed. The mere thought of
this failure brought the tears a growing weight, begging release,
a release they could not allow. Some moisture around the

(04:32):
rim could fall within the probability shadow of allergies or sleepiness,
not likely in their file, but still possible, But a
whole fat tear rolling down a cheek would definitely result
in Days getting sent home, marking up another sick day,
which in itself wasn't a problem. Even at fifteen percent productivity.

(04:54):
Days would not be classed for permanent reconciliation unless they
also logged a couple anti social, but it would ineluctably
feel like another failure, one more in an unbroken train,
going as far back as they cared to look, as
far forward as they dared to imagine. Perhaps working on

(05:15):
the sky had been an unpragmatically ambitious dream. Designers required
the highest aptitude in esthetics, mechanics, and maths. They had
to be team players. The sky formed a joint project
with Engineering, Life Sis and Mattillo. Days's high aptitudes and
intuitive low scores and teamwork and fine appreciation for suffering

(05:36):
had tracked them into palliative therapy. Yet wasn't that, on
another level an affirmation of their feelings. Days had the
unshakable feeling that it was their destiny to touch the sky.
What other dreams could one have condemned to die in
transit for Days's cohort. There was no final destination. Days's office,

(05:57):
like all health centers on her Medica, was at the node,
just at the end of the block. They paused before
going in. It was so low today, the sky as
though it began just at the top of the section walls.
The walls didn't end Days new Every block was itself
a sealed module, but the designers gave them something beautiful
to look at overhead, so they wouldn't have to stare

(06:19):
at gray walls on all six sides. Days would give
anything to climb into that deep, rich blue. They sighed
and walked through the double set of sliding doors, passing
through decontamination, Days went straight to their office. Lingering in
the common area would all but force the other therapists
to ask them how their day was, and Days couldn't

(06:41):
bear the thought of that, how's it going? The cruelest
question there was. They sat down and let out the
tears when they could. They focused on breathing, deep breaths.
It wouldn't do to see a patient like this. Every
work assignment brings us close to all of us or
none of us. That's what they had been taught. Days

(07:05):
was supposed to feel proud of their work as a therapist,
but it was impossible not to see the assignment as
some kind of failing. They had been early selected for
placement in a science cohort, and at the end of
it all, Days was barely a technician, while the others
had gone on to great things. True, only one person
in the cohort had been selected as a designer, and

(07:25):
last they knew, sidetracked into an entertainment project is as
far from the sky as Days themselves. And it was
also true that officially all jobs were equally valued and
prestige ranking was discouraged. Appreciative commentary on this or that
work category was boosted or muted accordingly, and even palliative
therapists and cleaning bought repair. Overseers got their digital love,

(07:50):
but people could still distinguish what was PSA, what was forced,
and what was generally admirable. It was even worse than
a science cohort because the peer reviewed structurally could not
use the same metrics as the social and if your
name never dropped in a PrV, you were definitely nobody.
But it was not the lack of name recognition that

(08:10):
chafed days. They could not help make the sky every
single day, and in exchange, they had to be classed
as permanent reconciliation on their profile for all the cohort
to see. If no one ever knew that they made
those colors, those moon rises, those soul hemorrhaging sunsets, they
would be perfectly happy. It was the fact that they

(08:30):
spent three and a half days a week guiding point
prods and air jets over the knotted backs and shoulders
of those who did the real work. That they coached
the creators of beautiful and important things on corrective posture
that stifled their spirit. Once they were breathing normally, Days
called the console to life and clocked in. The first

(08:51):
appointment came in seating and undressing on the other side
of the plexi. They were a young person in mechanics
from the next blockover who had started seeking therapy be
a few months ago for soreness and migraines. The two
had talked on other occasions when Days was on the up.
They had a decent job and reducing distribution loss between
blocks the unending quest to make her Metica more efficient.

(09:14):
It wasn't genius work, but anything that might accelerate the
arrival window was considered at least a little prestigious. Honestly,
anything that involved working on the ship and not just
on the bodies that filled it or the secondary machines
that serviced it was considered decent. Days had never worked
on anyone who had worked on the sky or the

(09:35):
engines for that matter. It would be illicit, but Days
wondered whether those job descriptions were tracked to higher grade therapists.
The scan was complete, and Days began directing their array
of instruments over the patient's back, keeping half an eye
on the display that Mr. End all the neural activity,
but mostly just following their own feelings on what the

(09:55):
other body needed, how it responded to the probing, the vibrations,
the digit pressure, the heat and the cold of a
dozen different appendages they kept in motion on the other
side of the plexi. Days supposed they were pretty good
at what they did. There had even been comments on
social that spoke of a magic touch that didn't seem

(10:15):
to be PSA. They were pretty sure they had been
written by real patients and weren't just machine love to
cheer them up for all its prosaic lack of glamour.
Therapy was something Days could do when they were down,
and when they were up, they could feel what other
people were feeling in a way it had surprised Days
to learn most other people could not. And that was

(10:37):
the world. Days inhabited a jungle of raw feelings in
which they were at the same time cold and alone.
But do you know what will keep you, dear listener,
from feeling cold and alone? The cold alone embrace of advertising,
because you and the advertising can be alone together. And
can you really say that you're alone listening to advertising?

(11:02):
Probably here's that, and we're back on a prior appointment,
Days had asked this patient if they knew anything about

(11:22):
the arrival window, But the mechanic wasn't that high up,
and there wasn't really anything else they could ask someone
like that, Certainly nothing that had any bearing on their block.
The power worked except when it didn't, but it always
came back quickly, and emergency systems never failed. Every now
and then a PSA went out and they were all
asked to minimize usage between such and such hours. Surely

(11:46):
there was a lot of work involved behind the scenes,
but what to say? So Days conducted the session in silence.
The thought of the arrival window stayed with them, though
the arrival window was all always narrowing and widening based
on the complex interaction between the colleagues and FIZZ and
the ones in engineering in interaction Days was not privy

(12:09):
to and would not understand anyway. But as it stood
most recently, her Medico was scheduled to arrive in two
to three hundred years at best. Unless bioen COGFIZZ and
Metaphizz made some huge advancements, Days would live just past
the halfway point. They would never arrive. They would spend

(12:29):
their life correcting the knots and cramps of engineers and
designers who would put those knots right back in place
with their next week of desk work. Even the ones
who had complete HF interfaces, no typing, all verbal in
gestural commands had posture problems. After all, many of the
high tier specialists voluntarily worked seven days a week to
keep their heads sharp. As the old saying went, so

(12:52):
as probably an NBS a problem that would never be solved,
which meant that Days's entire purpose was to keep fixing
those reappearing knots forever and ever unto death, and that
was all there would be. After two more appointments, Days
went home for the day, and that's when snookums appeared.

(13:13):
Crossing the block almost back to the module. They saw
movement out of the corner of their eye. Days turned
and there was a cat. None of their neighbors had
cats like that. Well, Days couldn't actually be sure. Weeks
passed before any one person had the chance to spend
time with even half the people on their block. But
getting assigned a new cat that was something people bull

(13:34):
horned on social every time, VIDs, anecdote and a flurry
of commentary. Days would have noticed a cat like this,
ash and coal and tiger stripes with peach cream undertones.
The cat had a peremptory gaze, set over a broad,
majestic nose that came to the perfect little floor delise
pawprint of a tip, a sculpted kiblet of marzipan perched

(13:58):
over a pursed mouth, flanked by long fans of whiskers
that bespoke a scornful elegance. The mystery cat ran up
to the nearest wall, shoring up its confidence, perhaps, but
also inciting attention. Hey snookums, Days said on a whim,
not knowing why. They lowered their mask, not strictly permitted

(14:20):
out on the street, but no neighbors happened to be
traversing the block at this hour. Hey baby, Days made
kissing sounds, and Snookums as it were, came hither. The
feel of its fur was so warm and soft. Some
kind of liquid pleasure flowed through Days's body, and they
drank it up, parched like one coming in from the desert.

(14:42):
They immediately felt their trapezius relax, releasing weeks of built
up tension. They should have noticed it was, after all,
in the center of their limited feel of expertise, but
while a patient begged a diagnosis, the self always demurred.
Having rubbed thoroughly against Day's leg, Snookums ran suggestively ahead,

(15:03):
right up to the door of the module, Day's module.
I don't suppose it's any harm if I borrow you
for a bit. As they approached, the module, door slid open,
and Snookums waltzed right inside, as though it owned the place. Well,
they joked, they can't say I kidnapped you. The bed extracted,

(15:23):
and Days plopped down on top of it. Snookums jumped
up and soon was atop their lower back, purring and
kneading away. Even more tension dissolved, as though chains had
been wrapped around Day's lungs, and they re encountered the
tears forced down that morning and so many other mornings.
Now there were no more walls and no need to

(15:44):
man them, and Days surrendered every last tier to the
bed sheets. By the time Snookums jumped off, Days felt
dry and clean, lighter. They let the cat hang around
until well after the beginning of the night's cycle, stroking
its head and flattering it with a progression of increasingly
ridiculous superlatives and then let it out the door. Snookums

(16:07):
disappeared into the dark. Later they scrolled through all their
neighbour's socials. None of them had a new cat. Days
woke up with a certainty that it was a special day.
As soon as their feet hit the floor, the bed
retracted and the smell of coffee infused the air. Good morning,
they chirped, Good morning, Days. The blinds rolled up with

(16:29):
a satisfying rustle, like a whisper in reverse, and Days
saw that the designers had outdone themselves again, another beautiful
day aboard her Metica. By the time they fell to
a crouch, the floor panel had tranced to sturdy foam,
and Days launched themselves into a dozen short reps of crunches, squats,
and burpies. As they came down from the final leap,

(16:52):
fingers almost touching the module's roof, they were panting joyfully.
They did a few stretches while their breathing came down.
Heel up on the windowsill, the shower extracted the moment
they pulled their underpants down right on cue. The jets
were hot and precise, and Days found bliss in the
barrage of water. They didn't exactly have time to think

(17:14):
before the leader ran out, but to feel. Certainly, they
felt a wonderful day stretch out before them. They toweled
off and tossed it, along with yesterday's clothes, into the chute,
which closed and backed them away. The shower dehumidified with
a gentle roar as Days selected a new set of clothes,
a loose baggy shirt and some snug elastic pants that

(17:37):
would offer no objections. They thought capriciously if later they
felt like dancing. As soon as they took a seat,
the mr shooted out onto the table, piping hot its
farther edge, making a perfect tangent with the coffee mug
at its side, just the way they liked it. Would
you like a dose this morning? No thanks, I'm ready

(17:59):
to meet the world on my own today. Module had
already predicted that response based on Days's vitals and visuals,
but it also knew that being asked and saying no,
affirming their ability to go without chemical supplementation, increased the
average time before Days would again need a dose. Breakfast
was pretty good. A palette of flavors with names like bacon, mango,

(18:22):
and plantain cast across a satisfying diversity of textures. As
they finished up the last bites, they decided, Hell, they
could go all out. Calendar Yes, Days, who's my social
appointment for today? Milty? Oh good? Send a confirmation, also

(18:42):
a message recording, Hey, Milty, I'm looking forward to seeing
you today. Do you feel like coming over? I hope so,
I'm cooking, don't bring anything, see you at nineteen h
buye sending thanks. Shall I set your default to pre
confirmation on social appointments? Whaho module, let's not get ahead

(19:05):
of ourselves. Days chuckled, Wait and see how we're feeling tomorrow. Yeah,
of course, Days. They stood up, pushing the empty mre
and mug into their chute. Oh, Days, Milty has confirmed
for nineteen h great. It had been about a week
since Days had kept a social appointment. You only got
one a day, plus the malty on Sundays and the

(19:27):
block party four times a year for everyone in good health.
It had been like that ever since the new safety
was implemented, back when Days was an infant. It turned
out that the population on her Medica, ideal for rapidly
settling a new home world, was also the perfect ecosystem
for the evolution and incubation of new viruses, and twenty

(19:47):
five years ago an epidemic had raced through the close
quarters of the ship. ARPV, popularly known as the Choking sickness,
had infected millions. It was only deadly in extreme cases,
but it spread asymptomatically, making it exceedingly hard to control.
The engineers and medicals had perfected the module and block layout,

(20:08):
restricting transit across the entire system. Every cohort in every
block was composed of people of the same age, preventing
cross generational contagion and protecting the more vulnerable age groups
while streamlining health services. And since then there have been
no serious emergencies. They had adapted. What had become vigilance

(20:28):
became custom, and life went on. But do you know
what is a serious emergency. The amazing sales and deals
that are available to our listeners through these advertisements, every
single one of them a serious life altering emergency. And
you're thinking, but, Margaret, wouldn't it have made more sense

(20:52):
to use as an ad transition that what had been
vigilance became custom and how life goes on despite these advertisements.
Well you might think that, but I'm holding by serious
life altering emergencies. Run, don't walk to probably just press
forward fifteen seconds, probably with four times or so, and

(21:25):
we're back mask on and out the door. Days looked
around for snookums, but saw no sign of the cat.
A number of their neighbors were out and about, and
they sang out one good morning after another. The sky
was projecting puffy white clouds and a strident sun, and
Days relished in the wind whipping about their face. The

(21:47):
membrane that closed off the top of every block was
permeable to air and precipitation, as her Medica's life support
system needed to cycle oxygen, nitrogen, and water vapor on
a shipwide basis. System was far from perfect, and occasionally
there were simulated weather events to equalize pressure and chemical distribution. Fortunately,

(22:07):
the designers could always anticipate weather occurrences with the data
they got from Mettio, and they made sure the sky
was always dressed for the occasion. So today the clouds
moved from left to right in the same direction as
the wind, coming to the center of the block. Days
saw they were building something on the green. As a
couple drones hovered about, movers deposited bundles and a couple

(22:30):
bots erected a tall pole almost as high as the
tallest modules the family units. Was it already time for
the next block party? Days wondered what the theme of
this time would be. The last one was Chinese New Year,
but Days hadn't been feeling well and gave it a miss.
Staying out of the way of the bots, they crossed
the green The health center was straight ahead, but the

(22:52):
supply node was to the right at the end of
the cross street. They had to get ingredients if they
were going to cook for Milty tonight, but then they
might be late for the first patient and certainly too
excited thinking about dinner to focus on work. They could
stop by on the way home. It was a fortuitous decision.
First in the queue they got a new patient, one

(23:15):
who worked in mettio. Bubbling with curiosity, they bit their
tongue until the patient was comfortable and the ensemble of
machines were whizzing and worrying over their back. It would
not do to stress them out, compound whatever muscle problem
had brought them here, and get a low rating on
top of it all. Some people loved to talk during
the sessions, but others flat out fell asleep. So you're

(23:38):
a meteorologist. Days ventured after the patient let out a
particularly appreciative groan. Me, no, days frowned. Nope, I work
in meteorology, but I'm actually a botanist. Oh good, a talker.
I thought all the botanists were an alimentation, most of us,
but not me. You know the bushes and shrubs grow

(24:00):
on your block? Uh huh, Well every block has a
botanical cohort, you see. To complement the human population spread
across our Medica, we actually have quite a biodiversity in
plant species. Of course, everything will need to terraform is
in the gene bank, but there's a hypothesis that after
a certain stage of KEMPREP we'll have better luck transplanting
adult specimens. In any case, with livestock, we have a redundancy,

(24:25):
and it's also proven to improve air quality and mental
health for the passengers. Wow, well that makes sense. So
what's the connection with meteorology. Media's primary job is to
monitor the atmosphere aborder Medica. Of course, the atmosphere belongs
to life systems. Their prime directive is to give us
air de breathe, but any changes they make have shipwide

(24:45):
ramifications and they have to work closely with METEO to
roll out those changes and monitor any feedback. Think of
METIO as like a shock absorber for life sys AH
in botany, well, we're the shock absorbers for the shock absorbers.
A meteorology rollout is designed for the health of the
passengers while minimizing the kind of discomfort systems ripples can cause.

(25:08):
No one's thinking about the shrubs. So that's where I
come in. Weather events an atmosphere in general spell life
or death for our botany cohorts, and they're not very
high up on the priority chain. Now, your maintenance blocks
are collecting chemical data every time they go by, and
the block analyzes it and sometimes can make a change autonomously.
Schizophrogma needs more watering done, but I combine that with

(25:30):
qualitative commentary on plant health. I can override the block
and design a special treatment regime for an unhealthy specimen,
And in the case of prolonged malaise, I can make
a recommendation to METIO, like to change the weather. You
bet if it can keep a cohort from dying off.
Of course, like I said, it's low on the priority chain,

(25:51):
but sometimes they make adjustments. WHOA, that's amazing. I've never
met anyone who can affect the weather before. So you're
in charge of all the plants on her Medica, The
patient laughed me. Nah, I just supervise one hundred blocks,
no complaints here. That lets me travel way more than
your average passenger. But her Medica is huge, and we

(26:12):
each got our tiny role to play. If any one
person just focuses on themselves, they feel small. But we're
doing all together. It's extraordinary. A shadow crossed over Days's
heart the first of the day. The patient was right,
it was extraordinary. But Days couldn't help but feel like
their life was impossibly small. Was it fair that one

(26:33):
person could travel across a hundred blocks, could reach up
and touch the sky, could make it rain, and Days
had to spend their life between the module and the office,
not even one hundred meters apart, touching strangers through a
plexi and the intermediary of a dozen probes and appendages.
It was their own fault, of course, If they had

(26:53):
studied harder, they could have done better on the aptitudes.
They had had all the advantages of an education in science.
The other people from their cohort had gone on to
important assignments. They didn't keep up with most of them,
but they could see what they were doing on social
One a mathematician had created a dynamic encryption system that
enabled classified reports to read one another, so that specialists

(27:17):
from different working groups and with different security clearances could
access relevant information across departments or check their data against
another set of data without actually having to view it
in the event they did not have clearance. Another, a
molecular biologist, was working on a team perfecting a nanobotic
array that could quickly scan, detect, analyze, and repair genetic

(27:38):
mutations across an entire organism. Plenty had gone into phizz,
and though physics people generally could not speak about their work,
it was rumored that one of them was in the
nuclear program working on her Medica's propulsion system ZIMP. Days's
best friend from the cohort was in higher ed training
the next generation of minds in quantum Mechanics AXA. Another

(28:00):
classmate was in socio psych designing optimum human interactions. Definitely
not Days's cup of tea, but who was Days to
be picky? They were a masseuse running the same dozen
routines over variants of the same four problems, over and
over and over again. The trainings post aptitudes were simple,

(28:20):
a year of anatomy and then a month of technical
education for operating the machines. Days had figured it out
in a week. Zimp, on the other hand, had gone
through six years of training and had to do hours
of reading every week to keep up on the PRVs,
and the molecular biologist from the cohort had only gotten
a work assignment a couple years ago after eight years

(28:41):
of post app training. If Days had been feeling a
little better, more social the day of the aptitudes, would
the outcome have been any different. They had scored well
in analytical and maths, but the low teamwork score had
spelled doom for just about any cutting edge assignment. Dreading
the memory, they were back in the unfamiamiliar room. Most
of the faces were unfamiliar to cohorts got broken up

(29:04):
for testing. The young students in the room were joined
by another bond, though, who could fail to recognize the
shared anxiety to no one's self in one's peers. The
examiner was late. No one was happy about that. The
screens at the front of the class already read nine
twenty That was starting time. They were supposed to have
two and a half full hours to finish. Days looked around,

(29:28):
weighing their peers, growing concern. The ubiquitous Remember the wiki
poster hung forlorn on the back wall. There were no windows.
At nine twenty four thirty six, the door swished open
and the examiner bustled in, taking their place at the
head console. Their face was a ste not a sign
of fluster or apology. Everyone in the class shifted backs, erect,

(29:53):
hands at the ready atop their desks. The examiner logged
in and entered a command, and the console extracted from
everyone one's desk. Twenty sets of fingers launched themselves across
tactile screens, entering personal ID numbers and passcodes. Any moment
the first problem should appear. Instead, the examiner spoke, speaking

(30:15):
with strictly forbidden during the aptitudes. But they were the examiner.
They could have you removed and failed for the mere
suspicion of impropriety. Before the test begins. You will all
go in to configure and set the test time back
to nine to twenty zero zero. Use this override a
twelve digit passcode appeared on the main screen. That was

(30:36):
certainly irregular, and it hardly seemed fair. They had now
lost five full minutes from their testing time, and no
one ever got through all the problems. Days decided not
to comply. Still frightened to the examiner, they moved their
fingers over the tactile so they'd blend in with all
the others. Then the test started and the first problem

(30:58):
appeared on everyone on screen. Dun dun dun. That's the
cliffhanger music. Everyone knows that dun du dun, dun dun't.
That's not the cliffhanger music. That's just me making noises
with my mouth because I've been talking into a microphone
for a while and it makes me lose my brain
a little bit. Anyway, that's the end of part one,

(31:21):
well episode one of her Metica by Alan Lee. Join
us next week when we find out what happens next
and in the meantime Allen Lee. It's a novella published
by Detritus Books in twenty twenty one. You can go
check it out now if you want, but you can
also check out other stuff done by the same author,

(31:41):
Allen Lee as their speculative fiction pen name, and his
name for most of his books is Peter Gelderlos, which
again includes, for example, the book The Solutions Are Already
Here Strategies for Ecological Revolution from Below. And you can
also check out Peter Substack Surviving Laff and I don't

(32:01):
know what else to plug besides listen next week when
I read you the next part of Hermatica by Alan Lee.
All Right bye. It could happen here as a production
of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media,
visit our website coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen

(32:22):
to podcasts. You can find sources where it could Happen here,
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