CZM Rewind: Discussing Palestine and Israel w/ Deevee Kashi

Shereen is joined by Israeli-American Deevee Kashi as he shares his perspective about the ongoing violence in Palestine and Israel, his experience as an anti-zionist, and why he believes that supporting Palestinian liberation is necessary.

Follow Deevee: https://www.instagram.com/deeveekashi 

Gaza Awareness Instagram post from @sbeih.jpg (includes list of places to donate to): https://www.instagram.com/p/CySCPAprJ9M/?igshid=NzZhOTFlYzFmZQ%3D%3D&img_index=1 

Instagram post with accounts to follow: https://www.instagram.com/p/CygYxxsRl6O/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA%3D%3D 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hello, you are about to listen to a rewind episode.
And it's not that much of a rewind. It's pretty
recent as far as history goes. But I just really
love this episode. I'm really proud of it. I'm really
grateful to have met our guest to Hob Kashi. He
just has insight that I think a lot of people
need to hear, especially as a Israeli American right now.

(00:28):
And yeah, I just find his voice very valuable and
it's worth a re listen. So here it is. Hello, everybody,
welcome to it could happen here. This is Sharene and
I am so happy to be joined by my guest today.

(00:50):
I've been so excited to speak to him. I am
joined by dB Kashi. He is a pro policy and
activist from New York and Israel, and there's just a
lot of stuff I want to talk to you about.

Speaker 1 (01:01):
So welcome, pleasure to be here. Great to meet you, Sharen.

Speaker 2 (01:04):
I want to start with just some background for the
audience to just like kind of get to know where
the perspective you're speaking from. Can you tell me a
little bit about your family history and where you grew
up and where your parents are from. And all of that.

Speaker 1 (01:16):
Sure, my parents were both born in Israel, and they,
like many Israelis, moved to New York City in the
eighties and had myself and my two siblings, And as
my grandparents were getting older, to whom we were very close,

(01:37):
my mom decided to move back to Tel Aviv when
I was in two thousand, so right before the Second Intifada.
And so when I was thirteen eighth grade, I moved
to Tel Aviv for the first time. And you know,
obviously I was very familiar with it, like visit every summer,

(01:59):
and you know, grew up in our grandparents' house, both
of whom were Iraqi Jews who immigrated to Israel in
the early fifties. And so yeah, so when I moved
there in eighth grade, I was completely pretty much a
shock in terms of what I was used to in

(02:22):
New York. Obviously, I had friends from many different walks
of life, many different backgrounds here. I was very used
to that, right, I didn't grew up in you know,
a very staunch Jewish community. I had Jewish friends, but
I didn't solely have Jewish friends. And so that's what
I loved, That's what I embraced, but when I moved

(02:44):
to Israel, it was very jarring. You know, I had
studied in Hebrew for the first time, and you know,
everything that we studied in school was pertaining to the
Jewish identity. So every kind of history class, you know,
you'd study about the Roman Empire and the Jewish people.
You'd study about, you know, ancient Greece and the Jewish people.

(03:06):
And that's okay to learn about Jewish identity, but intertwining
it with every aspect of the school curriculum and really
thinking about the persecure really kind of hammering home this
notion of persecution, really kind of understanding how you know,
And again, I think it's important to understand your history

(03:31):
and history in general, but I think that kind of
introducing this notion of persecution as a tactic to retraumatize
people that aren't directly experiencing the trauma. Right, So everyone
in the world learns about the Holocaust, but did you
know that in Israel, Holocaust Remembrance Day isn't on the

(03:52):
same day as the rest of the world's Holocaust Remembrance
Day because they want to own their own kind of
version of the Holocaust Remembrance Day. Right. And so you know,
when you think about the Holocaust, you think about other holocausts,
other genocides that have happened, and Israel's failure to recognize
those genocides, like the Armenian genocide, right, and the fact

(04:14):
that you know, many people don't know, but you know,
throughout history Israel has armed genocidal forces with Israeli made
weapons to you know, support imperialist motives and colonialist powers
around the world. So you know, even even now with
what's happening in Armenia with the Iserbaijani's right, Israel is

(04:37):
on the wrong side of that equation, right, And so
it's never been about standing with the side of the
oppressed for Israel, It's never been about, you know, ensuring
that what happens when they say never again, actually never again,
never happens again to anyone around the world. Right. Think

(04:58):
about their policy is the racist policies around refugees, right.
I think people don't understand, right. I have a very
unique perspective because I understand kind of the minds of
the colonizers. I can humanize the colonizers. I think there's
a dangerous kind of maybe thinking about things from a

(05:23):
bit of a different angle than kind of people are
used to, and also bringing it back to the events
of the last ten days or eleven days at this point,
I think, you know, I've always kind of looked at
and identified with the Palestinian struggle, right, And I've always
seen it as human rights struggle, right, and you know,

(05:43):
as such, and as many well regarded activists and thinkers
and intellectuals have always talked about the unification of all
the struggles of the oppress, and that's always always arrived
at the identification with this struggle for the Palestinian people.
I've also felt, you know, by virtue of this se

(06:07):
this imposed identity of you know, Israeli, I've always felt
directly responsible for the oppression of the Palestinian people, even
though I've never done anything myself to champion or perpetuate
that oppression. I've always worked against it from a very
very young age. Now people always ask me, you know,

(06:28):
kind of annoying questions like, you know, why do you
care so much about the Palestinians when so many people
in the world are suffering. And the answer to that
question is I care about all suffering. But this is
something that the government that supposedly represents me, that the
entity that supposedly represents me is directly perpetrating and frankly,

(06:50):
after going to many protests in New York and in
Israel itself, I've realized that this is the most important
human rights struggle of our generation for sure, but of
modern times because it stands for all of it's essentially
the last beacon of direct colonialism. Right. We all know

(07:13):
how kind of neocolonialism works. I mean, maybe we do
when we don't, but neo colonialism, through you know, different
coupitalist structures, right, America has been able to perpetrate neocolonialism
without actually having to occupy other people, you know, save

(07:33):
for Iraq for almost twenty years, but or fifteen years
or whatever, it was a very long time. But Israel
is directly and physically occupying in other people, and they
have been for the last seventy five years, right officially
for the last seventy five years. And that's been a constant, Right,

(07:54):
It's not, hey, you know, here's a country and let's
you know fight, let's continue our kind of battle in
that way. It's been it's always been. If you're a
scholar of Israeli history of Zionist history, you always you
start understanding that the goal was to take over all

(08:14):
of Judaea and Samara, right, And that's kind of how
the settler government that Netanyahu has in power has been
speaking for years. Right. I'm really upset and really kind
of frustrated by the way that the Western media has
been portraying what's happening over the last eleven days, because

(08:35):
even Israeli media Halitz, which is an Israeli newspaper, which
is very prominent one right, isn't portraying it the way
that the Western media is portraying it. Right, they're criticizing
the Netanyahu. There's so many people in Israel that are scared, right,
All the leftists are scared. They're being persecuted. They're signal
groups doxing friends of mine, people literally fighting for human rights.

(08:58):
They're doxing them. Israelfrai, he's an Orthodox reporter that's been
staunchly pro Palestinian and he's a very prominent member of
the press. Angry mob of right wing extremists try to
knock down his door the other day and he had
to escape from the back door and run away. So

(09:19):
they don't, you know, potentially kill him, right, and so
these voices are being silenced in Israel. No one is
talking about that. Everyone in the West is beating the
drums of war. The media is supporting that. We've seen
on the kind of a micro but tragic level, what
happened to that six year old kid that was stobbed
to death by someone just because of the anti Islamic,

(09:41):
anti Palestinian rhetoric that's being perpetrated, And so everyone's kind
of losing their shit as all of a sudden, everyone's
saying the same thing because everyone is being pushed to
justify this war. But people are starting to wake up, right,
the UN's woken up and very very slowly start to
wake up because they're seeing that genocide is actually being

(10:03):
committed and so you can't throw your full weight behind genocide.
But they're walking it back too slowly. And the people
that I'm disappointed by are people that are supposedly smart,
spewing complete nonsense rhetoric about two sides. Right. I struggled, Right,
this is important. I struggled. I know people who were
killed in the Hamas attack personally and intimately know them. Right.

(10:26):
You know, my ex girlfriend's best friend was killed. Right,
She's We've hung out many, many, many times. She was
a very sweet, very kind person. We know an activist
who was literally because people don't understand. And this is
for a lot of the kind of pro Palestinians that
that that And I completely empathize, and I understand why

(10:47):
people believe what they believe. Believe me, but this is
for a lot of the pro Palestinians that you know
immediately called all of them settlers, right, And I think
it's important to distinguish because if there's ever going to
be a path forward this mess, we have to offer
a new rhetoric that deconstructs the nationalist ideologies. Okay, I

(11:09):
don't put the Palestinian flag or say free Palestine, which
I do as a nationalist ideology. I say that as
a deconstruction of nationalism, as as a call to freedom
for all, right, though oppressed as well as the oppressor. Right.
If you actually read everyone's quoting, everyone's quoting Phenonen, right,

(11:33):
everyone's quoting all these revolutionaries, if you actually read the
material that they said. Chae Gavari even said the true
revolutionary is guided by deep with deep feelings of love
in their heart, and he said this at the risk
of sounding absurd. He said that direct quote the people
perpetuating in Israel. I can say this from a first

(11:54):
hand account. I know very good people that are guided
by nationalist and fascist idea. However, they've been manipulated, They've
been lied to, They've they're fed propaganda twenty four to
seven through the news and the sentiment in Israel right now,
and I can tell you this, I'm getting messages from people.

(12:14):
They think everyone is trying to kill Jews. That's what
they believe, That's what they've been told. They think this
is armageddon for the Jewish people. That's what the media
narrative is in Israel. Okay, in spite of the fact
that there are many people that are against what's happening,
there are many people that directly blame Netanyahu for this,
but they're being scared to believe that they're being going

(12:36):
to be attacked on all fronts, and they have to
do everything they can to neutralize your threats. Okay, that
is the survival kind of That is a fact. Does
that mean that every single person in Israel is a
terrible human being as evil as some people say, No,
that is not true at all. Right. And my point is,
and what a lot of the revolutionaries said, right. Palo

(12:58):
Freer in the Pedagogy the Oppressed said, in the process
of dehumanization, the oppressor dehumanizes himself. Putting that aside, though,
I think that you know, for me, I see I
know people that died, it was very difficult for me
the post in the first two days. I think there
were some problematic justifications for the massacre that didn't sit

(13:21):
well with me because I'm a humanist. But in the
same token, right, I think that I understand the context.
I think it behooves us to understand the context. Right.
There's a really famous quote. I forget who said it,
but if you started the clock or started looking at

(13:43):
kind of the colonization in America from when the Native
Americans started shooting the arrows, you think that the Native
Americans were the aggressives. Right. If you started looking at,
you know, the colonization of Algeria, when the Alga when
the local population started rebelling, you think that they were
the aggressives. Right. And that's not to say in the

(14:05):
same breath that terrible things happen to amazing people there. Right,
What people don't know and a lot of the Propolst
movement doesn't know is that many of the people living
in the area on Gazas are actually activists, like very
anti zionists, activists right that many of the testimonies of

(14:25):
the families of the of those activists are saying to
stop the genocide, that it's not going to bring back
their friends, their family members. Those are the people that
were a lot of whom were killed in the attacks,
because that's where they live, they work with, you know,
organizations at Gaza like acknowledge that, right, understand the complexity saying, hey,

(14:48):
you guys are all settlers. That's just dumb. It's not
factually true. Their grandparents were, their great grandparents were one
hundred percent. But now their generations and generations of people, right,
just like in America, their generations and generations of people
that descended, Are they to be held accountable for the
actions of their ancestors. Doesn't make any sense. They should

(15:11):
be held accountable for actions that they take now for sure, right,
holding your government accountable, you know, thinking about an actual
solution to this terrible situation that one hundred percent people
should be held accountable for. But to call them settlers
as a justification for their deaths is something that I
will never do, right, and I don't think it helps

(15:32):
the struggle, right. I think it's important to say, and
then simultaneously also say, did you guys know that Israel
played a very major role in establishing the commas? Like
don't be stupid, open a history books, see what happened, right, Understand,
don't just be quick to call and quick to say
both sides. It's not a both side situation. Even though

(15:54):
the aggression was terrible, those are those two things can
be true. It's a devastating, tragic event, right, and I
know many great people that were killed in it, But
in the same breath, we have to remember what caused it.

Speaker 2 (16:07):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (16:07):
Context is everything, right, Context is everything. Israel funded the Kamas.
Bibi has direct quotes in Israeli newspapers saying we have
to fund the Kamas in order for is Palestinians never
to have a state. He directly said that how do
you guys ignore these statements? They've been very Bibi has
been very clear as to what is going to happen

(16:29):
and what he's trying to accomplish. And then on top
of that, to compound things, the settlers in his government
right now isamal Bengvil and Smotrich are two settlers. They
literally are settlers, like in according to the national law,
they're considered settlers, okay, illegal settlers. And there the second

(16:49):
and third most powerful people in Israel. Okay, I don't
think people understand or know, but those two guys. There's
a there's a famous rabbi, okay, Andrew. He's an extremist,
fundamentalist rabbi, Jewish fundamentalist rabbi. What he's been calling for
for a long time, sadaka Is Kahana was right. He

(17:11):
was a very fascist rabbi that was basically calling for
the extermination of all Arabs. And they're basically they're called
kahanistem and that's it's basically what the left in Israel
used to call this government. Manchash Khanistem means government of Kahanists. Okay,
that is what that's who's running the country. And this

(17:32):
rabbi has been calling for in a biblical sense. And
we all know when people have an utmost you know,
devotion to religion, that guides them, right, not our world.
Our world does not guide them. The religious texts and
the religious leaders are the ones who tell them what
is right and what is wrong right religious in religious fundamentalism,
and so what this rabbi has been calling for for

(17:54):
years has been a war to end all wars. Okay,
that is what he's been telling them. That is what
they've been operating under. Okay, their allegiances are to him,
not to the Israeli people like literally to that ideology.
And so they're in the government right now. Over the
last year, they've been essentially adding illegal settlements at a

(18:21):
rapid rate, emboldening and empowering settlers to commit violence that
we haven't seen in many many years, levels of violence
we haven't been seen in many many years, even before
this latest aggression I'm talking about over the last twelve months.
And the biggest most annoying thing that I hear from
Westerners that think they understand right, they're like, oh, yeah,

(18:45):
we really care about Palestinians. But Hamas has to go
two things to that. One, the fact that there are
Palestinians on the West Bank and the Palestinians in Gaza
doesn't mean they're not the same people. They're Palestinians in
forty eight as well. They feel deep feelings of solidarity
because they're all oppressed in different ways. Right, it's solidarity

(19:08):
under this got under this Grand Zionist oppression that they experienced.
And so I think that it's a fallacy that it
was an unprovoked attack. It's a fallacy, right, It's not
the case the fact that Aleksa kept getting bombarded by
settlers on purpose, on purpose, I don't put it back

(19:29):
like they did this to get a provocation. They've been
provoking to get the retaliation for Hamas. They've been doing
this for years. This is nothing new, Right. Every time
Ramas shot rockets over the last five years is because
Israel was attacking Elecxa right right after Ramadan if you remember,
or during Ramadan. Sorry, And so every time a barage
of rockets came in right after that barrage of rockets

(19:50):
because Hamas wanted to show that someone is sticking up
for them. But I'm just saying you have to understand
the context when you're in a blockade, when you're living
in a concentration camp, worse than a concentration camp, frankly, Right,
every electricity is controlled, water is controlled, food is controlled.
You're not able to leave, right, You're not able to

(20:12):
freaking leave when you want. You're not able to come
when you want, not able to. A sixty kilometer strip
of land is the most densely populated strip of land
in the entire world. Depression is the the highest rates
of depression. I think the highest rates of child suicide
are in Gaza, Okay, when you're living under those conditions,

(20:35):
I have no idea how you don't. I have no
idea what that would feel like. So how can I
judge anyone any response to that? Right in the same breath,
I can also say it's a tragic thing that innocent
people died, and they're innocent people, and I think it's
important to hold that complexity. Also for the Palestinian cause.
I think it's important to not lose sight of our

(20:56):
humanity in criticizing the grave injustices that Israel has committed
and putting the blame squarely on Israel's shoulders. That Hamas exists.

Speaker 2 (21:05):
Yeah, I think that's something that I keep coming back
to is whenever someone is just all about condemning Hamas,
which is like, yes, as you mentioned, like innocent people
shouldn't have died, but I blame all the violence that's
happening in Israel on Israel, Like, it's not you. Yeah,
you can't just start like at a slave revolt as

(21:27):
the beginning of history of slavery. It's like no, actually exactly,
they did that for a reason and they had no
other choice. And I mean for Palestinians, I think, like,
what's the biggest context that's missing is like they've tried everything.
It's not their first choice to kill people that didn't

(21:48):
deserve it. It's I think I think that's what's been really
annoying with the the people that have chosen to spoke
to speak out that have never spoken out before. They
are so narrow in their view of this that it's
so damaging because they have so many follow werds, or
they're talking about the wrong things, and all of those
things like kind of perpetuate a really dangerous environment where

(22:13):
like a six year old kid can get stabbed to death.
Or I don't know. I agree with everything you said,
and I really appreciate you saying all those things before
I forget. We're going to take our first break, so
don't go anywhere and we're back. Something you mentioned early

(22:38):
on that I have been thinking about and getting really
angry about is why people are surprised or like unexpecting
you to speak out about Palestinians if you are not
a Palestinian. I am not a Palestinian. I'm Syrian, and
I am extremely vocal about the Palestinian cause and the
Palestinian I've always been one hundred perc free Palestine till

(23:01):
I die. And it's almost like surprising to people, like
why are you so worked up? Like why aren't you
so worked up like that? That's what really gets me
is your humanity and care. It shouldn't be contingent on
your identity if you actually give a shit. And I
think that's what I really want to like relate to people,

(23:21):
is this is not the Palestinian's struggle solely for themselves,
Like this is a struggle for all. Like if this
genocide obliterates the Palestinian people, that's on humanity shoulders. That's
not like that that is so indicative of how depraved
humans have become. It's just so upsetting. It's just a
complete obliteration. There has been videos of settlers saying they

(23:45):
want to flatten the whole thing, make it a parking lot.
I mean, I don't even have to tell you what
like actual media and like politicians have been saying because
it's like atrocious. But I think that's what I want
to relate to people, is like, if you're not if
you don't care, examine that because that is troubling to me,
if you don't care about actual genocide. And maybe that

(24:06):
word has been used too much to make people give
a shit, but it really makes me question people's humanity
when they are able to kind of just like shrug
it off and continue about their day.

Speaker 1 (24:17):
I've been practicing being hopeful. I think it's really important,
especially in times like these, to be hopeful because without
hope and it sounds cheesy, but it's true, we're not empowered, right,
We're not able to act. And I think what's exciting,

(24:39):
what's I guess heartening to me is actually the people's
response to what's happening. Yes, there are many influencers and
celebrities that posted the wrong thing, I'm also seeing many
that posted the right thing. Yeah, I'm also seeing many
people that I'm I'm seeing many people that I wasn't

(25:02):
surprised by posting the wrong thing. Yeah, frankly, but I'm
also seeing many people white people, you know, black people, right,
like people of all kinds that are disconnected, you know,
from an identity perspective, to the Postinian people doing so
much showing up. I went to the I was I

(25:26):
saw images from the protest in uh the other day
and there, and I'm not talking about the Jewish protest,
which was amazing, right. What JVP did with if not
now in front of truck Schumer's house was incredible. Right.
That's that's solidarity. That's that's that's real, right, That's that's
that's that's humanity, right, that's what humanity should be. That's

(25:49):
real solidarity. I'm talking about the protests though, that was
Palestinian lad in the midtown, and I saw tons of
Jews there m hm. And I'm not talking about the
sut Mar anti Zionist, you know Hasidic Jews, those are great, right,
and they're they're helpful. I'm talking about like regular regular
ass Jews, right, like me, Like people like not even

(26:09):
wearing amaicas, like people with you know, small yamicas that
aren't like you know, Hasidic or anything, holding up signs
to help liberate the Pestinian people in spite of the Hamas,
in spite of everything that happened, they showed up, they
were not scared. A Pastinian flag doesn't scare them, right,

(26:33):
it shouldn't. It shouldn't. But again, I want to be
I want to I want to maintain my my I
guess I want to maintain the view of objectivity. I
think again, you know, Devil's advocate, I think when when
And again this is not not me blaming, right, it's

(26:54):
more so offering kind of a perspective to question how
to kind of move forward when people Israeli's Jews whoever, right,
are indoctrinated to believe that Palestine means no place for me, okay,

(27:14):
and then you couple that with the anger anguish that
the oppressed people are feeling and saying, yeah, fu fuck that,
like we couldn't want you here, right, like you look
what you're doing to us. I think that they view
the Palestinian flag as a replacement of, you know, the
flag of Israel, which many people actually kind of not

(27:38):
many people, some people view it that way. And I
think that the way I see it and the way
many people I know see it, it's a flag that
represents liberation from oppression, liberation of the Palestinian people who
are being actively oppressed by Zionism, right, an ideology, right,

(28:01):
you know, perpetuated and executed by people, but it's still
an ideology.

Speaker 2 (28:06):
So just like because I think this always comes up,
but being anti zion Its has nothing to do with
being anti Semitic, and I think they always get completed,
and that's on purpose to make people afraid to speak
up about Israel. I can only imagine how brainwashed Zionism
becomes to like the whole, like the like education and everything, like,

(28:28):
is that something you experienced like firsthand.

Speaker 1 (28:32):
One hundred percent? I think what we've seen over the
last decade, right, the fact that Natania has been in
power for over twenty years, that's that's like the dictatorship
level stuff. And people in America are like, oh yeah,
the West, you know, there is a semblance of you know,

(28:52):
power to the people in the West, as semblance of it. Right,
we're seeing how much the media is in cahoots with
you know, power against the people right now, which is very,
very scary and everyone should be up in arms no
matter where your your feelings lie. But there is you know,
there's a new president. You know, every four years of

(29:14):
a president is termed, right, you can't be you can't
be a president for more than two terms. Right. These
are real things, right, these are real protections. You have
three different branches of government, right, you have local level,
local government. You have so many different checks and balances
that are you know, corrupted and corupted in certain ways,
you know, through lobbyists and you know, corporate interests, et cetera.

(29:36):
I'm aware, but at least you have that system. In Israel,
that system doesn't exist, okay, there's no constitution and a
prime minister can't be termed. And so now bib Nintanello
has been in power and figured out how to survive
attempts on his throne many times over through building coalitions

(29:58):
with the right wing extremists, which frankly are against his interests.
Like he wanted to kind of perpetuate status quo and
just kind of be in power. Like this is kind
of made it difficult for him to just be the
guy who kind of, you know, makes it makes everything
okay for Israelis. Right now, Israelis are scared shitless and so.
But but putting that aside and going back to your point,

(30:23):
the knock Aba was never even discussed until recent history.
Like it was not like no one even knew what
that word means. Right, We celebrated it as Jomat's Mote
Independence Day. So the Israeli Independence Day is the Palestinian's knockbat,

(30:43):
which means the great tragedy for those who don't know,
and the catastrophe. Yes and so. But but what's interesting
and very sad is that in recent years, because of
the world actually and when Israelis tell you don't know
what you're talking about, don't comment on things you don't

(31:04):
talk about that you don't know about. You most likely
if you've done any any literally any if you read
one book on Palistine, if you read on Palestine by
Noam Chomsky and Elan Pape, like, you know more than
Israelis know about their own situation. And I say that

(31:25):
wholeheartedly because I know what they study, right, They omit
the large swaths of information in order to form the
psyche through the narrative that they perpetuate. And so. But
because of recent external and global pressure, because of the
fact that the world's the new generation of young people

(31:49):
have educated themselves on Palestine, you know, catalyze a lot
of them, catalyzed by the social justice movement. Right, the
Angela Davis is the Chomskis of the world who always,
since the sixties, I've been talking about Black liberation is
incomplete without the liberation of Palestinians unifying struggles. They know
more about history of Israel and Palestine then Israeli's neue. Okay.

(32:14):
I've always been super impressed, not like not to say
that people are dumb. I actually think people are very smart,
right if they're willing to look. But every Palestinian friend
of mine, every single one, knows so much about Zionism
and zion Is history, right, there's scholars of Zionist history, right,
But Israeli there's no idea about Palestinians and Palestinian history.

Speaker 2 (32:37):
It's just I think it's really unsettling because, I mean,
for those who don't know.

Speaker 1 (32:42):
The catastrophe was like massment, like the.

Speaker 2 (32:45):
Mass expulsion of like seven hundred and fifty thousand Palestinians,
ethnic cleansing, massacres, extreme, like just a disgusting show of
forcing someone to leave their land and taking it over.
It was uh atrocious and hurt. And I think the
fact that I can't even learn about power or like
learn deeply about Palestine or Palestinians. It's like another way

(33:08):
of ethnic cleansing and like forgetting to even exist. And
I think that's very unsettling because you can't just forget.
I mean, at the same time, they say, like history
is written by the people that are in power, right
or the people that like win the war, quote unquote,
and they're very capable of convincing a big amount of
people that like like that they were never here.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
I think being hopeful is a practice, and I've definitely
fallen into, you know, bouts of depression and helplessness and
hopelessness also I think we all do, but I think
it behooves us to practice hopefulness, especially in times like

(33:54):
because without it, we don't have the power to liberate
the oppressed. Right, Yeah, and I think you know, yeah,
I mean, like like you said, it's it's I think
it's also important. I keep saying, the Palestinian struggle is

(34:15):
the people's movement all over the world, right, and we're
seeing that it's not me, I'm nobody, but we're seeing
that people understand that. Right. Like I said, people are smart, Right,
you don't have to go to you know, an Ivy
League school to be intelligent, right, Palafreier talked about banking
and intelligence. Right, when you just consume information from a teacher,

(34:37):
perpetuating the perpetuating the injustices, and maintaining the system of oppression, right,
you can be as educated as you want in that
form of education and not understand the world and understand
the inequalities around you. Right, But if you feel those inequalities,
if you have that empathy, if you're able to expand
your consciousness a little bit to also include those that

(35:00):
you may not identify with or as, or you know
that that maybe are not tangible, their experience is not
as tangible to you, then then you're able to understand
situations pretty clearly and easily. And I think the world
is showing up because they understand that. Right. Sure, the
air world is showing up. And that's incredible, right because

(35:21):
they understand. Right, this is like what I always say
is Palestine is the last kind of like I said earlier,
the last direct colonialist project that exists in the world direct, right,
in terms of direct and active about that colonials project
that exists in the world and the air world. You know,

(35:43):
if you read Edwards Aid and Orientalism, you understand how
the West basically created and othered kind of they are
a world in order to create that separation and division,
in order to create, you know, a world that serves
interest in visualism versus kind of communitarianism and of the

(36:06):
kind of East. And so when you when you think
about in that context, you start understanding that you know,
this is and this is a struggle against kind of
Western imperialism, right, this is a struggle to free all
oppressed people, because that's what that's what Zionism Israel currently

(36:26):
stands for. And everyone who perpetuates it, and people that
talk about intersectionality and anti racism and all of that,
and they still say and they still don't understand that
this is literally a real time manifestation of the ship
that they've been reading in history book, right, and we're
seeing it and it's jarring, and resistance is fucking jarring, right,

(36:47):
Like it was darring to me. I could barely watch it.
I had people crying, you know, and this is I
didn't say this earlier, but I had you know, family
members that didn't want to speak to me, and like,
you know, people cursing at me, and like friends from
you know, middle school sending me heate messages. My mom
is receiving death threats, right, Like, this is real shit, right,

(37:07):
and so like this isn't like an abstract like and
and so you know that's what that's what people don't
necessarily understand when they just approach it academically. And I
commend them. And I think it's important to like understand
the intellectual context of things, like I've done the work,
I've read the books, but I think it's also important

(37:27):
to kind of take a step back and contextualize things
all around, right, and and only through that contextualization can
we rehumanize, you know, both the the oppressed and the
oppressor are in order to actually have a path forward
that's inclusive of all that doesn't that doesn't pit people

(37:48):
against each other. Right, Jews lived on that land for
many years before Zionism, if.

Speaker 2 (37:54):
Your scholar, I want to say, that's just fine, before
the introductions of Zionism, which is a very modern, very
fascist ideology.

Speaker 1 (38:05):
Not only Zionism though, right, Like think about Syke's Picot, right,
the British French treaty that was signed in nineteen twenty
that sliced up the Arab world according to their whim
didn't take into account any demog any, ethnic geographic relations,
didn't take into account any of that, and that is

(38:27):
what's set the tone for a lot of what we're
seeing in their world today. Right, compounded by the introduction
of a European ideology into the region that served European interests,
is what is what we're seeing to this very day,
and the Palestinians bear the biggest brunt of it. I
wouldn't say like I would say, like in recent years,
there's tragedies all around due to Western imperialism and Western intervention, right,

(38:53):
I take that back, right, Like I don't want to
compare tragedies, but the tragedy of the Palestinian people that
there's no one really advocating on their behalf. Yea. I
was going to add a wrinkle that probably ninety nine
point nine percent of the population doesn't know, including Pustinians
and Arabs, because it was actively erased. But up until
Psykes Pico, up until Western imperialism, Arab Jews were an

(39:19):
integral part of Arabic culture. Okay, any my grandparents from Iraq, right,
Iraq wasn't The Iraqi Jews were not Zionists. There were
hundreds of thousands of Jews in Iraq that lived there
since Babylonian times.

Speaker 2 (39:33):
Right.

Speaker 1 (39:34):
There are many, you know, many empires that came through
the air world. Right, so this place replaced et cetera.
But they were there for hundreds of years at the minimum.
Some would say some of them were actually not there
due to the Spanish Inquisition, right, but actually were there
before and never left basically, And so you know, they

(39:56):
were musicians, you know, they played in Kusum, right, like
they were statesmen. They were very integral part of the culture. Right.
And they are many Arab friends that do know this,
and they they're like, yeah, like it's the biggest, the biggest,
one of the biggest tragedies is kind of the betrayal
of the Arab jew right, And they understand, right, like

(40:17):
when at this point in time, and this is not
only iraqis was Egypt and you know Yemen and Morocco.
There's a huge community, right, like these these people live there.
The Nazism is not an Arabic concept. They're trying to
paint Arabs as Nazis.

Speaker 2 (40:33):
Even growing up, I would go to Syria a lot,
and my grandfather would like he would only get bread
at the Jewish bakery, like he would take the walk
and go there and it was normal. No one cares,
like no one gives a shit really what your religion
is in those communities. And I think, I mean, this
is obvious for people that are reading about all of this,

(40:54):
but the media and Zionism in Israel, they're purposely conflating
what's happening with religion to make it more complicated for people,
to make it this like ancient battle of all time,
when it's not about any kind of Muslim versus Jewish
versus Arab versus whatever. It's it's really so simple, to
the point where it's kind of silly. And I think

(41:16):
they make it so complicated for people to be scared
to talk about it. They're they're not informed enough. They
don't know about religion, they don't know about the history.
You don't have to know about any of that to
know that oppression is wrong and genocide is wrong.

Speaker 1 (41:29):
And every every every resistance movement in history was considered
a terrorist, yes, movement in modern times, right, even Israeli militias. Right,
you had the Lech, the Excel and the Aganah. Okay,
they're considered terrorist organizations. Because they would attack civilian British

(41:50):
and they've attacked civilian targets during the British mandate. Yep,
sounds familiar. But you know what, those those three militias
became the idea, the idea exactly. The three militias that
that formed the idea if once Israel was given statehood
were considered terrorist organizations, the IRA terrorist organization. Right, Melson

(42:12):
Mandela was on the US Terrorists Watchless until two thousand
and eight. These are real things. These are all facts.
But I'm saying even if you're thinking about it from
the perspective of attacking civilians, Okay, wrong my opinion, But
when you don't have if you look at actually ere
another another fact. Right, look at what the Chbella is doing. Okay,

(42:34):
they were considered terrorist organization. Their armed to the teeth.
Israel scared shitless of the Isabella threat. I'm hearing it
from people on the ground, right, they're attacking military targets.
They're showing the world that they can't because they can.
They used to not be able to, Now they can.
So they are When a population is oppressed, suppressed to

(42:56):
the level that the Gossins are, what military do they
have Do they have F sixteen fighter jets that they
can go and bomb? I don't know the Kiriyah? Did
you guys know that the biggest military base in Israel
is in the middle of the Tel Aviv.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
Yeah, in a residential area.

Speaker 1 (43:13):
In a residential area. So what if? What if? What
if the Gosins had F sixteen fighter what if Kamas
had F sixteen fighters? They wouldn't want to bomb that? Yeah?
Like people are people that dense like that, they don't
understand how this thing works and what what oppression looks like. Right.
A lot of my Pastinian friends always say the world
wants us to be the perfect victims. Yeah, and in

(43:34):
a lot of in a lot of senses, the burden
is always on the victim, right in these oppressive scenarios.
So I always tell them, guys, like, we have to
be smart. We have to make sure that you know, again,
I like, it's it's trauma that I can't you know,
I feel in my bones, But but it's not, it's
not directly happening to me, and and and so I can't.

(43:58):
I'm not It's not from a place of judgment, It's
from a pragmatic perspective. We have to understand that that's
the trap that they're setting for us. The Kamas enacted.
The Kamas did exactly what the right wing government wanted
them to do in order to justify the plan that
they had all along. I'm not going to go so
far as to start perpetuating conspiracy theories because it's not

(44:20):
my place. So I'm not going to say that they
planned this and it was, you know, an inside job.
I'm not going to say that. But what I will
say is it served the interests of the right wing government.
And the one thing I wanted to say, because I
keep going off on tangents and I apologize, But to
your point about the Knakaba, I said, in the last

(44:41):
ten years, it's pretty crazy to see the narrative shift.
Israel has so been so emboldened. They feel so invincible
because of the international support that they have. Now they
acknowledge the Knokaba. Now they acknowledge a enough, but we
know how they acknowledge it. They say, yeah, the knuck happened,
Let's do a second one, yep, right, And so now

(45:04):
they're now all of a sudden the knock by existed, right,
and they're basically saying, hey, let's do a second one.
All the like, all the right wing govern of government
officials were saying, second knock, But let's do it now,
let's let's that's what they're trying to do. Yeah, I
mean they're trying to do in Gaza. The humanitarian it.

Speaker 2 (45:20):
Feels like the first one just ended right.

Speaker 1 (45:22):
That I always I always say that I agree, but
I'm saying, like I'm talking about mass expulsion right now.
They're trying to They're trying, under international on everyone's noses
to utilize genocide and ethnic cleansing to displace millions of
Palestindiums from Gaza. And God knows, I don't. They don't
have a they don't. This was like a biblical idea, right,

(45:43):
like the Judean Samaria. This is not like a there's
no like specific plans that people had, Like this is
a biblical, fervent, ideological idea. They don't freaking know what
they're doing. They don't want to go to the don't
want to go to war with Iran. They're scared of
the like these are real things, these are real threats,
Like Israel hasn't fought a real opponent since the seventies

(46:06):
and the pool war. That's what I'm trying to say,
Like this showed how vulnerable they are and they're scared.
I'm telling you, Like I know the sentiment on the ground,
like people are scared out of their minds. They don't think.
They're not very confident in Israel's military, right, Like that's
why they're bombing the shit, and like that's why they
haven't invaded. They said they're going to invade, babes talking
this big game. They haven't done yet because they're scared.

Speaker 2 (46:26):
Remember also, is that the IDF that's all. It does
not actually act in the best interests of the civilians,
if anything. Like there was like a report from an
Israeli woman who survived the massacre at the music festival
that said a lot of them were shot by like
their own forces. It was like indiscriminate shooting.

Speaker 1 (46:44):
The biggest casualties for Israeli soldiers up until this was
friendly fire. Yeah really, that's.

Speaker 2 (46:54):
I mean, I just think that's so hard to remember
because it's a they're framed as this very like ideal
warrior bullshit, and it's so far from the truth.

Speaker 1 (47:06):
Yeah, that's what I'm saying. They're eighteen year old kids, yeah,
these aren't like US like marines that are career assassins.
Like have you ever seen in a US marine and
next to an Israeli soldiers? I'm serious, like like I know.

Speaker 2 (47:21):
It's become a trend to be a soldier of anything.
It's like very like you see these like young people
like yeah, exactly, it's like a very cool thing to.

Speaker 1 (47:32):
Do because there was never a threat though Israel. Israel
has been You've grown up in Israel believing that you're
the most powerful entity and you can do whatever you
want whenever you want, right, and that notion has been
shaken to its core. And if you're part of the
propaganda machine, if you're caught in the propaganda machine that
is kind of Zionist Israeli ideology, you're basically now your

(47:53):
whole world is crumbled beneath you. Right, you're completely in
survival mode. Everyone's posting everyone, it's like you have to
eradicate come us. They're not even eradicating comas what are
they doing, They're just emboldening come us. Like this happens
all the time. It's just happening on a much bigger scale.
Right now, any hamas leader that the thing I was
basically looking for like a big like a major hamas leadership,

(48:15):
you know, attack and once they're able to neutralize, you know,
in their words numerous high ranking officials, I think they'll
declare victory, even though they're not going to be victorious.
They're not going to bring back the fourteen hundred people.

Speaker 2 (48:30):
They're also going to kill the hostages at this rate,
you know what I mean, Like they're not like.

Speaker 1 (48:33):
They've already killed more than twenty two.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
That's how much do you actually care about your civilians
and the hostage like the foreign hostages either like it's
your but but I don't know those clearly showing their ass.

Speaker 1 (48:44):
In my opinion, I want to have a clear message
though to kind of people that are on the fence
in the West that are being fed propaganda through Western
media outlets. That is quite clear at this point, and
some of them recognize this, and that's why they come
to my page and they're like, oh, you know, thank you,

(49:04):
I didn't I didn't know. I didn't know. In Israel,
there are many people, not even ideologically that want to
bring the hostages back and don't understand why Israel is
doing what it's doing before and not even talking to
them about the hostages.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Yeah, it is complete being like plead, it's just yeah.

Speaker 1 (49:27):
I'm not talking about left wing activists. I'm talking about
like average israelis right. Natanya has failed the Israeli people
that attack the fact that and again this I don't
know if people know this right people who know, no,
but maybe some some don't, that attack was a complete
military failure on behalf of Israel. And that happened because

(49:49):
over the last six to nine months since the right
wing government took place, took power, they've been using the
IDF to support, empower, embolden and protect settlers in the
West Bank. And that's why settler attacks have increased. That's

(50:11):
why settlements have increased, that's why they're more settlers than
ever before. And what they were doing on that very
day people don't already know. I hope they do. But
if they don't already know, the IDF was in the
West Bank on Suquot, which is a Jewish holiday, and
they were protecting settlers in building a sukkah structure that

(50:32):
people sit in in the middle of Juara, a Palestinian village,
and they were protecting them and chaper owning them. So
that they can break into Palestinian village to build a
suka in order to antagonize Testinians. That's say what you
may about anything else, the fact that that is the

(50:52):
priority of the government. You know you're doing the oppression.
You're already committing the oppression. You're already subjugating the Tastinian people.
You know that Haman is Cobabs. You're going to remove
the security forces from the border to embolden and empower
settlers instead.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
That's shame.

Speaker 1 (51:09):
It doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 2 (51:11):
No, it's it's I mean, that's why the most unsettling
things I've seen coming out of Israel are those right
wing protests where they're like death to Arabs and whatever,
or like they're attacking people and the ideaf is like
either helping them or standing by. If you're on the

(51:34):
fence about this, still, you are literally for genocide. Those
are the two differences. It's either your for genocide or
you're against genocide. And if you're considering the options, examine yourself.
That's not right. I was just sent this tweet apparently yesterday,
the twitter for Israeli Prime Minister at Israel PM said

(51:58):
this is a struggle between the children of light and
the children of darkness, between humanity and the law of
the jungle. Are you fucking kidding me? That's like Nazi
Hitler shit, are you? There are so many lives I've
already been lost, and the ones that have not been
lost are never going to recover. They've lost so much
other than their life. There are so many terrifying and

(52:21):
horrific videos that I've seen that no one should have
to go through. And not only are they going through it,
they're getting funded and encouraged by most of the world.
I cannot accept that. I sorry, I don't want to cry,
but I might.

Speaker 1 (52:41):
I mean, it's that's where we're at at this point.

Speaker 2 (52:44):
No, but I appreciate you being here to get through
to people who might still be considering what's happening as
a both sides thing or a justification for anything when
they see tweets like that, or when they see justification
for killing all the people because they're all barbarians or
whatever it is. I urge you. I urge you to

(53:06):
seek out Palestinian sources of news, actually see what's happening
in Gaza, listen to people who are not advertising anything
to you, and it's like pleading for their lives. I
just this can't be how we end up as a people.

Speaker 1 (53:26):
I'm very sad.

Speaker 2 (53:29):
It's extremely unlike no words to describe how devastating. And
I think if you are listening and you are wondering
what to do, there are places you can donate to.
I can put some links in the description of sources
that I trust of people to follow and all that stuff,
so you can look at the description for that. I

(53:50):
think what's very important that people maybe aren't taking too
seriously is how important social media and like spreading awareness
has been, because the only reason and the resistance has
come this far is because of that. Because more people
are aware about what's going on, people aren't accepting that
Israel is doing this. So I think we just can't stop.

(54:12):
Like as much as they want the world to forget
that Palestines were even there, we cannot forget Palestinians. And
I'm not going to stop talking about it, and you
shouldn't either.

Speaker 1 (54:22):
This is why I'm speaking on I just set a
message on Palestinian friends. You are our voice. Now We're
not allowed to spit out a lip. They are arresting
anyone who speaks or shares the truth. Please, I beg
you don't give up on our people in Gaza. We
need your voice to stop the genocide. Thousands of lives
have already been taken. We can't stand this anymore.

Speaker 2 (54:45):
Please listen to that, everybody.

Speaker 1 (54:47):
Please, it's very hard to fathom and internalize what's happening.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, it's a lot, and we're privileged enough to think
about it deeply. The people in Gods of Palestinians, they
don't have the luxury of no of anything other than
their nightmare of a reality.

Speaker 1 (55:09):
No, I want to add san just because I think
that the biggest kind of pushback that we keep hearing
is Hamas. And I think that again remembering what we
kind of mentioned earlier in the call, how liberation movements
for occupied peoples have always been deemed terrorist organizations and

(55:36):
you know, even targeted civilians, right, So not only like
by the definition of terroist organizations are terrorist organizations. So
even if that's what we believe, and let's just say
that that's you know, we accept and agreed that that's
what Hamas is. I think it's important to understand that

(55:57):
terrorist organizations have become political organisations time and time again,
and I think that it's also important to understand historically,
the Hamas as an entity. Again, I remind you was
created and partially created and funded by the State of Israel,
emboldened by the State of Israel. Because I want to

(56:19):
be very clear, up until the nineties, right Alslo accord
to the peace process. People say, oh, the Palestinians didn't
want peace. To your point earlier, the Palestinians were willing
to take almost anything. At that point, Arafat, who was
considered a terrorist before he became a statesman, right, was
on the table with Robin had an agreement in place. Okay,

(56:43):
and then people don't know. If you're not a scholar
and you don't know, you should know. Oh Goldstein, an
Israeli terrorist, came in to a mosque. I believe it
was in Hebron, I don't remember exactly, and he killed
more than thirty people during prayer in discriminately shot innocent
people in a monsque. So the biggest, one of the

(57:04):
biggest tragedies. Right, and then he was he was not
only did they the response, you know, Raben's response to
that was it was locking down Hebron Palestinians in Hebron,
so because he was fearful of what the Palestinians would
do in retaliation. The immediate response by Rabine was locking

(57:27):
down the people of Hebron, okay, instead of going and
doing something about the settlers that committed the crime or
that emboldened the person committing the crime. That's number one.
Number two, that sparked the retaliation because when people don't
have justice, they take justice in their own hands. So

(57:47):
that sparked this series of attacks in Israel, right, devastating
attacks in Israel. But it was that that did that,
And it was his He could have he could have
handled that differently, but he and right and and and
that was what sparked the response. Then in turn, okay

(58:07):
again who putting that aside? Right? And and sorry, little tidbit.
His grave m HM Cochtain's grave is guarded by the
IDF as some and many many many consider him a
national hero. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (58:28):
I've seen photos of people like crying at his grave
like it's yes, save their family or something. When he's
not just when you literally just like went to a
mosque with a gun and shot thirty people who were
fucking praying.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yes, and that's right.

Speaker 2 (58:41):
When people are idolizing exactly.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
It's rotten to its core, is my point. This is
what you're supporting when you support the state of Israel. Okay,
this is part of part of this is part of
what you're supporting. Now, taking a second step, Robin was
assassinated by a Jewish Israeli, not by Palestinian. Even in

(59:03):
spite of everything, the peace process was still going on
because they did everything to foil it, right, and then
they assassinated the Israeli Prime minister. And ever since then,
Right then you had Ariel's your own and whatever that
tried to continue a peace process and you know, some capacity.
But ever since then, for the last twenty three years,

(59:26):
no one has been talking about a peace process. They blamed,
they blamed the Palestinians for every act of resistance. They
don't listen. They believe that they talk the way that
politicians discussed the Palestinian kind of oppression is managing the occupation, okay,

(59:46):
managing oppomission. No one's talking about peace, not left left,
pseudo left, whatever you want to call it, not liberal
Zionis left or center or right. No one is talking
about peace. No one is talking about any semblance of Pea.
I find it very particular, right, and this is my
this is why I'm saying we live in the twilight zone.

(01:00:07):
That Donald Trump's four years in office, Okay, he had
Kushner that say, what all the bad things right about
his about his behavior. He was trying to through normalization
deals with their world, trying to get a deal for
the Palestinian people, albeit the most absurd sort of deal

(01:00:28):
if you ever read what the Abraham Accords actually entailed,
right like weird like highways and weird, right like not
a deal that anyone should have accepted. But putting that aside,
he was talking about it. There was discussion, there was
Palestinian like the word Palestinian was being said by the
Office of the President. In the last four years that

(01:00:50):
Biden was in office. No one said anything, no one
did anything to advanced piece. No one even brought a
bogus deal like darreed Kushner to the table. Don't make
it make sense. I don't understand. They basically bought into
the Zionist idea that we can just live, continue living

(01:01:11):
while millions of people are being oppressed and occupied. This
is the Democratic Party, and that's why we see the
media now the way it is because they're controlling the
media narrative too, right, So open your eyes, see it
for what it is, right, don't get cloud don't let
your judgment get clouded by this. Two side bs aspect

(01:01:33):
hold space for the killing of innocent civilians, including the
killing of Israeli innocent civilians, while simultaneously understanding that this
is all because of the aggression of colonialism and specifically
the perpetuation of the Zionist project as a colonialist, nationalist

(01:01:54):
ethno state. And that is what I ask of you
guys to do, right, Yeah, thank.

Speaker 2 (01:02:02):
You for that. That's I think a great place to end.
Thank you again for joining me. You are just as
your Palestinian friends said in that message. Your voice is
really critical because people will more likely listen to you
than to a Palestinian. So I very much thank you
for your activism. And I don't know, it's we're not

(01:02:27):
living in a just world and so we just have
to stick together. I also want to mention the other
reason why social media is so important. It's like one
there's a reason they cut electricity to Gaza. They don't
want anything coming out of there. They want them to
die in a blackout and two they are literally arresting
people for following Palestinian accounts. Now yeah, so I mean,

(01:02:50):
if that's not totalitarianism, like what the fuck is? I
don't But anyway, so that's it for today. I can't.
I don't think it can do anymore. But again, I'll
put some sources in the description to donate to to
keep raising awareness. If you have people in your circles
that are still hesitant about having a stance on this, like,

(01:03:13):
have conversations. It shouldn't be complicated. It really shouldn't, because
it's not. And that's all. That's all I have.

Speaker 1 (01:03:19):
So thanks everybody, Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (01:03:27):
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