December 1, 2025 • 32 mins
In the first of a four part series, James catches up with Primrose and her daughter Kim, who he met in the Darien Gap. We hear about the journey from Panama to the USA’s southern border, and the challenges migrants face along the way.
Primrose’s Legal Aid Fundraiser: https://www.gofundme.com/f/immigration-lawyer-for-primrose
Sources:
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/01/21/world/americas/trump-us-mexico-border.html
https://www.fresnobee.com/news/article299272524.html
https://www.whitehouse.gov/presidential-actions/executive-orders/
http://www.toddmillerwriter.com/border-patrol-nation/
https://timzhernandez.com/all-they-will-call-you/
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Al Zone media.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Like most of you, I wasn't having a great day
on the twentieth of January of twenty twenty five. I
wasn't about to watch the inauguration, so I went for
a run in the mountains instead. I spent the next
few weeks trying to focus on the things we could do,
the things we had to do to get through four
years of fascism. Just a few miles away from my house,
(00:49):
I set out for my run, and unbeknown to me,
my friend Primrose was staring down from the top of
a thirty foot steel monument to hate Donald Trump had
built the last time he was president. To be ir accurate,
it was one that had modified. There have been versions
of the border wall in San Diego for decades.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
They said, no, we have an option. We need to
take you.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
But you know, for me, I had to take a
risk because I was scared to stay in Mexico. So
they took us with under the bridge, I think the sewage.
We were walking with our stomach like under the bridge
to get to USA and Mexican borders. So they put
(01:32):
ladder for us to help us. Those people when they
saw American immigration came, they just removed the ladder and
me I was on top. So I had yeah, I
was staged. Then I had no choice and the King
Balish was crying like calm, let's go, let's go.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
At that time I knew nothing about it, but her
daughter Kim had already jumped as a Biden press. He
drew to a close but before Trump began signing executive
orders with pens, he tossed into the crowd. She'd made
it into the US. Her mum was in the US
as well. The wall is inside the border, but the
people who had helped it get up to the top
(02:14):
of the war had fled when border patrol arrived, taking
their ladder with them, and so Primrose was left atop
the wall, the literal and metaphorical final hurdle in her
long and dangerous journey that had begun in Zimbabwe, who
went through South Africa, Brazil, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica, Negaragua, Honduras,
Guatemala and Mexico. But before we come down from the
(02:42):
border wall, I want to take you back to the
miss Soak River bank of Maragante. Last September, Yah Daddy,
my fixer, and I had woken up at no godly hour,
and so had the jungle birds. Along with half the
population of the village, walked down to the riverbank, carrying
(03:02):
the engines and fuel tanks to the Piraguas. A few
minutes later, a chorus of two stroke engines and smoke
fired up as the boats set off towards Bajo Jaquito.
I stood in the bow, still trying to master the
use of the pole as we passed through the faster moving,
shallower water. Daddy sat in the middle and laughed at me.
(03:25):
Despite my best efforts, we arrived in one piece in
Bajo Chiquito, and I launched myself from the bow into
knee deep water on the rocky beach. In front of
us stood hundreds of people, patiently waiting for the Piragueros
to take them north and out of the jungle. Stretched
like a snake all the way through town. The line
of migrants must have totaled one thousand people. I walked
(03:46):
backwards away from the boats, the only foreigner not leaving
look for people i'd met the day before. About halfway
down the line stood Primrose and Kim, and I stopped
while we chatted for a bit about what the boat
was like, what they could expect next.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah I'm going there. Yeah, yeah, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
To Do you have family?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
No?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
No, you just make your American life. No, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I think I'm just trying. No, it's only me and
I do it.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Despite this, they had found community on the journey. I
can't describe how scary it must be for two women
to set out on this journey alone. It takes an
awful lot to embark on that journey and to be
able to trust people when everyone is a potential threat.
But if there's one thing I learned in a jungle,
it sit in the hardest times and the hardest places.
(04:37):
The only way forward is together. Primrose reminded me of this,
telling me how complete strangers had helped her.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Very nice.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
This, especially these Spanish people, they are very nice. I
don't know into life was. If you need yop, you
forgot them for your look. The other ones they might
run away by the other ones, they just for They
even give us tablets on the road, give us energy drinks,
give my daughter a sweets for enage. They push us like,
(05:09):
let's go, guys, let's go, let's go. You make it,
and we really make it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, that's really nice to hear. I asked Primrose a
question I asked everyone there. What did she hope for
when she got to America? What was her American dream?
What do you hope for her in America? What do
you want to do in America?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I want to go to school, then she can I
see something in life. I don't wish my daughter to
go big, to same or no, not at all. Yeah,
it's really really.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I saw them a few days later last Blancas I've
read chat with a group of little Venezuelan children playing
a game where we'd throw bottletops into a broken half
cinder block. We talked about the struggle they faced to
pay for the bus north, and we didn't record anything
that day, But as I was leaving for the evening,
(06:16):
Kim asked me if I could buy her a drink.
I generally try not to splash my money around because
I don't have enough money to help everyone, and I
still have some scars from ridiculous concept of objectivity that
would lead some editors not to commission a story from
me if I gave the subject a gift. But this
time I felt like buying her a drink, and I
let her select the biggest bottle of cold soda she
(06:37):
could find in the little store in the camp there.
I told her and her mum to stay in touch
and wrote my number on a piece of my notebook,
tore it out and gave it to them. Months later,
Kim was holding the same scrap of paper, looking up
her mum stuck on the border wall. A whole lot
had changed since I last saw them. A few days
(06:57):
after my scriptured podcast and the Daddy and Gap was released,
the United States elected Donald Trump as his forty seventh president.
It was a ship month all round that My phone,
as it often does, lit up with messages from my
daddy and friends asking me what this meant and if
Trump was going to close the border. I didn't really
know how to answer those questions, because if as one
(07:17):
thing we know about Trumps, he changed his mind every
few weeks. As we got closer and closer to the
day he was inaugurated, they got more and more concerned.
Most of them hadn't made it out of southern Mexico.
Many of them had told me that things there were
even worse than the jungle. They'd all been robbed, some
of them had been sexually assaulted, some of them kidnapped
(07:39):
and some of them killed. I'd heard about all of
these things every day from September last year to January
this year. In the middle of a run, or when
I was having dinner meeting a friend for a coffee,
my phone would ring, and I'd be confronted with terrible injustice,
and I'd be totally powerless to set it right. As
(07:59):
time went on, I heard from fewer and fewer of them.
I assume their phones were stolen, but there are, of
course more upsetting explanations as to why they might have
stopped contacting me. Noemi, the little girl who wanted to
visit Minnie Mouse Video, called me once from Tapatula with
a little tiny toy bear that I'd given her and
that she kept with her on the whole journey. It
(08:20):
may be happy to see them, and a silly little
bear carved from soapstone that had traveled the lengths of
South America with them. Every few weeks after I'd left,
I'd get photos of the bear in a different country.
As a little Losito worked its way closer to Disneyland,
some people who worked at Disneyland had reached out to
off was suggestions about tickets other people had reached out,
offering to pay. I was, despite the odds, hoping that
(08:44):
one day I could help one little girl see her
American dream come true. When we spoke, she was with
her mum and they were trying to log onto CBP
one hoping for an appointment, but it wouldn't work on
their old Android phones. I tried to find shelters with
her liable internet that would take them in, and called
friends and endio's almost every week, passing along questions or
(09:05):
looking for resources. I spent hours calling, finding it hard
to accept that the capacity for mutual aid was so
overwhelmed that nobody had a safe space for little girl
and her mom, and wondering if it still felt like
a pepper Pig adventure or if even little indomitable Miami
was scared now. Even from where I was was a
(09:27):
fast Internet and a weather friends across the Western hemisphere,
I couldn't find the help people needed, and it made
me increasingly angry and anxious the more I tried. It sucked,
but there was still a chance, however slim, that one
day I might get to see Miami meet Minnie Mouse.
So I kept trying, and so did her mom. Then
(09:49):
one day I got no response from her mum's WhatsApp
when I messaged her, nobody picked up the phone when
I tried to ring. I still haven't had a response,
but artically I'll keep trying. Even the last messages and
photos are gone now after my words up updated. Like
so many of the people who I shared my food with,
whose little children held my hand in the darkness of
(10:11):
the jungle, who I desperately wished and wish I could
do more for, they're gone.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That's what strong borders means. It means brave little girls
disappearing so a politician who knows nothing of their struggles
can point to a statistic. I've listened to the interview
I conducted with them so many times since last September.
I still can't really work out her. Anyone with a
heart could hear that and think they wanted to live
in a world where that little girl wasn't safe. But
(10:39):
that's what people voted for. I guess I don't think
they did. Actually I can't think they did. I think
people liked them, and that's what they voted for. But nonetheless,
here we are now, sitting in a country that didn't
want to help the little girl who flexed he around
muscles to show me how strong she was after climbing
the mountain into the most dangerous land migration route in
the Americas, and told me it was for her all
(11:02):
a adventure. Her mother gave a different account.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I didn't want to cry because I didn't want her
to see me crying. But sometimes I would explode because
it's hard for your child to ask you for water,
to ask you for food, and you don't have any
to be in a place where you walk. You walk
from five in the morning, it's five in the afternoon.
You're walking, you don't know what to do, going through
more than one hundred rivers and asking God not to
rain and not wanting it to get worse. It rained,
(11:35):
and the girl got a fever. She got a fever.
But well, God is good that we pray a lot.
I say that we don't know God so much in
the church from the process and the process that we
are in, and we don't know we can be so
strong until we go through that storm and we see
that He protext us. He knows that He was always
there watching over us, taking care of us at all times.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I don't want to dwell on this too long, because
talking in public about grief is something I'm bad at.
One of my friends died fighting in Ukraine this year.
A colleague died just weeks before we'd planned a trip together.
Some of my Burmese friends died fighting. But even as
someone who talks to soldiers for a living, nothing really
compares to the death toll inflicted by the US border regime.
(12:35):
The little village in England where I grew up, there
are memorials in every town a village for the young
people who died fighting in the World Wars. If we
built those at the border, they'd soon be towering far
above the wall that does so much of the killing.
Things are as bad now as they've ever been. The
wall construction in the San Diego sector that Trump administration
has proposed will wave environmental and cultural protections and push
(12:59):
micro further into the desert. In the desert, further from help,
further from water. More of them will die. Speak to
migrants all the time, the ones who stayed in Mexico,
even the ones who took the Venezuelan governments offers of
flights home. As much as they ask about America, they
also ask about each other. Do I know what happens
(13:21):
to the Angolans who shared their food too generously? They say, No,
I haven't heard from them.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
What about the.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Venezuelan trans girl who braided their children's hair, Well, she's
still braiding hair, but she hasn't made it to the US. Gradually,
she did make it, and then she was immediately deported
back to southern Mexico. How about Rose, they say, the
Bolivian girl who came all on her own and founder
found me along the trail, only to be separated from them. Again.
I haven't heard from her in a year. Universally, they're
(13:50):
happy to hear about Kim and Primrose. They're glad to
hear that someone made it, that somebody can make it.
Because of the more than one hundred pages I tore
out of my note book with my phone number, they
are two of the three people who let me know
they made it here. So let's hear from Primerose about
what it looks like to make it here, how it
(14:10):
feels to have the best outcome of anyone I met.
Let's pick up at Las Blancas there now shattered migrant
reception center. We're a hundred language for weeks and months
trying to get together the money to pay for a
bus to the Panama Costa Lika border.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
I think I spent seven days in Banama. Oh what's
short with money? So I went into immigrash trying to
ask them if you can they can help me to
take a bus to Costa Rica, of which they say no,
you have to pay your sixty dollars.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
You're in your daughter which one India? So I pay that?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So I ask you people, man, the people I know
they helped me with money saw Fromanama. We took it
a bus from Banama to Costa Rica.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
This is a very common story. People borrow money from
a huge range of friends and relatives along the way
they hope to get to the US, work hard, and
be able to pay it back. The whole process takes
every penny they've earned in their life and generates significant
amounts of debt. In most cases, this has made worse
by the fact that on arrival they will wait months,
(15:25):
if not years, for work permit, and their immigration judge
could stop the clock on this at any time for
any reason. Primros and Kim's case, Costaly can move them
through its territory quickly, as they do with nearly all migrants.
Next they arrived in Nicaragua.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Yeah, to Nicaragua. Then in Nicaragua, I think we walk
from Costatica border to Nicaragua border. Then we walk again.
I think it was it was walk from Yah to
Nicaragua bus team. In US we just walk. Then we
when we reached there, we paid again to wander Us.
(16:07):
Then there's also place we walked from Honduras from nicarag
got to wander Us by stemin Us. I think it
just was the all day. Then from wander Us Guatemalam. Yeah,
in Guatemala we spent it three days again because it
(16:28):
was tough Guatemala. People they really need asking for a
lot of money. So my life was like asking people,
asking people and do it get and do we reach Mexico.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Then exhausted and broke, she came made it to Mexico.
Then you only began in Zimbabwe and took them from
there to South Africa, then to Brazil and across the continent.
Now they had just warn more country to go before
they made it. But I say, where to find out
this one country is the one that so many migrants
don't make it out of.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Then in Mexico. My life was like in this because
they were charging a lot of money. In In fact,
when we reached Mexico, we reached Tapatola and not before
ta Patula. I just forget the name. So they took
us in the bush where we paid money. Again, when
(17:28):
we paid money, they started teaching us. If we don't
live gus, then they walk with us. It was two
of midnight. They walk with us till they get a
transport to take us to Tappatola. So when I reached Tapachola,
you know people, we were giving information to each other.
(17:52):
So I was also following other people like from Cameroons
and Venezuela. So when we reached Tabachela, we reached Tarpatola
the tend of October twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Tapatula in the south of Mexico. It's where thousands of
migrants send up. The Mexican government at the time had
a policy of trying to keep people there and began
offering them free bus rides north. They had a CBP
one appointment. But unlike places like Tijuana, where there have
been migrants gathered for many decades, there are not as
many services in Tapatula and the shelters and services that
(18:26):
exist there are overwhelmed by the demand. The volume of
migrants and the relative absence of services leaves a space
open for abuse. That's what happened to Primrose and Kimberly.
They ended up paying someone who they thought could help
them navigate the complicated and convoluted system of registration in Mexico,
the CBP one app and then traveling north to the
(18:46):
USA and ultimately being able to make their asylum claim. Finally,
in the end, what they got was the opposite of help.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Then the agents judge US four thousand each, which is
me four thousand, my daughter four thousand, of which I
was I wasn't lift that man other people that we're paying.
So I just talked to the agent. Then I said, okay,
you please go down a little bit because I'm a
(19:15):
single party. And then I don't have anyone to help
me with that kind of money. Then he said, okay,
three point five. So I started asking people become the
people I know, maybe they can help me. So I
have a lady who helped me with the money, which
is she gave me four thousand years. Then my mom
(19:41):
sell my land. I was saving a land with which
she saw which lays money. Then she saw even also
stuff to get another man to complete seven thousand. So
we asked someone to send it to America because in
Mexico they don't do this money from Africa. So I
(20:02):
found someone here in America to receive the man. So
he sent it to me in Mexico. But when I
paid the man, the agent took me. He said that
way I'm going to take you. So he sent the guys,
which there were four Mexican guys. So they came to
(20:23):
feature us. We were six seven. Yeah, I don't even
know where they took us. So they took us to
the to the bush which is Guajaradella. I can't even
remember it. Gajadella, Yeah, I think so. I spent the
day from October up to.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
January in the background. Here you're here splashing. That's came
playing in the pool. A little apartment complex where they
were living in East La I just comment for migrants
to share a flat with someone else. Didn't have much
in the way of furniture. The last time I saw
Primrose and Kim, it was by the Tuquesso River in
Las Blancas. There the brown water was something to be
(21:06):
afraid of. Migrants died crossing the river every day, swept
away by the fast moving water and relying only on
strangers to hold them as the current tried to pull
them in. A few times I walked out into that river.
I felt the tug of the current on my boots.
I wondered what it must be like higher up in
the mountains. At six foot three. The river I crossed
(21:27):
never came above waist high. It's deeper higher up. But
even then, reaching out my hand to carry someone's bag
or grab a child's hand as they came from other
direction and struggled to keep their toddlers and their few
positions out the current, I get little jolts of fear
when I stepped on a wet rock. His primrose talking
about that part of her journey.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
I was good, my daughter, she was strong, she was strong,
but she was crying also, but she had what wounds
all over their body? Even me, I was crying myself.
I was like, I want to just put myself in
the water, then I can just go both. The gain
was tough, really really tough. The mountain, the stones, the river.
(22:09):
It's not easy at all. It's not very I don't
even recommended someone to say you use that and give no.
And even myself I did know about it. I was
regretting myself. I was crying. I was like, God, I
don't know my family, and my family they don't know
where I am right now.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Back in Los Angeles, primers told me that she'd fallen
in the river and two Venezuelan men had jumped in
to pull her and came out total strangers on their
own journey, had risked their lives to help a woman
child who didn't know, with whom they couldn't even speak.
The river kills people who drink it too. The concentration
of human waste and human remains in the water makes
(22:52):
it incredibly dangerous to drink, even for people dying of thirst.
I couldn't stop thinking of that river and how much
it scared people, Feeling so grateful the Kimberley could to
enjoy the water after all of that. Next time, I said,
they could take the train down to San Diego and
we could all go to the beach. Let's go back
(23:22):
to Mexico. Now to Guadalajara, where many migrants told me
that of all the things they had endured, including the jungle.
Things were the worst of all. Promoter's arrival in Mexico
had not been great, and having paid one person, she
was now being held by another group and asked for
yet more money.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
They were kidnipping me. They were asking for fifteen thousand
dollars each. They said, you're not going to take you
and I was crying. Kim, she was also crying. They
are that people. They will get money paid. Leave I
think from my group for the people they were kids napping.
(24:05):
It was only me left and they came and I
was crying depression.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I didn't know, but I tried.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
I tried, you want to escape, run away? I failed
down and my leg was something else. I didn't even
go to hospital. My leg was swollen. And the way
they would treat us it was paid. Especially when I came.
The other one wanted touching me the whole board like
(24:38):
I was like, please, if you want to do something,
you can do it to me, and plus don't do
it in front of my daughter because she was also
crying disturbing. I didn't even go to hospital. I asked
them to go to hospital. The refuse, Yeah, James, I'm
(24:59):
doing no. I'm sorry because.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Primrose understandably had trouble even recounting this story. It's not
the sort of memory that's easy to share. But just
when things seemed to be beyond repair and when it
seemed like there was nothing to hope for, it was
Kimberly who came through to help her mom.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yeah, they no, so Kim Madish was like, uh, lending Spanish,
so she was understanding some of the winds.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
So she just tell this guy.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Also was like, why can't you leave this woman because
she doesn't live money. Because those people they took my phone,
they even break it in front of my eyes.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
The fue I was leaving from Africa.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Kim Spanish was pretty good by the time I met
them in Los Angeles this summer. We went out for
dinner and I asked him what she'd like to eat.
She said she wanted to try seafood and practice of Spanish.
So we went to a Mexican seafood place, complete with
cabin decord, taxidermy fish on the wall, and the waitress
kindly helped Kim order in Spanish, patiently showing her different
(26:07):
menu items and smiling as Kim read them off. It
was a happy moment for me and what I didn't
think i'd ever be having when I moved here in
the bush Era, But that part of southern California has
always been a welcoming place for me. When I was
in my twenties and racing bugs for are Living, I'd
fly into Lax and often ended up spending the night
at Union Station or Alvera Street before taking a train
(26:28):
to San Diego. I speak Spanish. I always felt like
the people I met there were such a better reflection
of la than the portrayal we see of it in
the media. Now a decade and a half later, sitting
in a Mexican restaurant where a lady from Nadiqe helped
a little girl from Zimbabwe speak Spanish, it felt like
a little glimpse of the way we're told things are
here and the way they can be in working class communities.
(26:52):
A nation built by migrants, yes, on stolen land, but
one that nonetheless welcome people who needed help and took
the time to help them. Sadly, not everyone was helpful
on Camen Primaries this journey, and when her captains realized
she had no money to pay them, they eventually just
decided to let her go.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Then I think on Januarist seven or fifth, I don't remember.
Then they just really took us. Then they just done us.
I don't even know. Then a star I saw an
immigration immigration officer with the guy with the car. Then
I stopped him. Then I translate to ask him to
(27:35):
Then they said, okay, get inside the car. They took
us to immigration, so we get a pass from there
to another town. Because I was like shifting, shifting, shifting,
asking to I get to Joanna. But those guys before
(27:56):
they told me like, wherever you go, even if you
are here in Mexico, we put uh a tricker for you.
So if you tell anyone, if we find you're going
to kill you. So me, I was scared. Yeah, I
was scared. So I didn't tell you. Even the immigration officer. Yeah, yeah,
(28:21):
Do I get to tea Joanna? So I we get
to join on the trendred of January. So I just
asked the Mexicans people. Then there's a guy as I said, okay,
I will try to help you, but you need to pay.
Then I said, I don't leave money. He said if
you don't have maney, we can't help you. So I
(28:42):
was like, oh, I only asking people asking every people
to help me and the other people that were just
opening me was I said, people, we look where I
am with my daughter, I'm far. But my family, the
other family, especially my my other family mem By, they
don't even know where I am. So those guys from Tijuana,
(29:09):
the guys, if you're not crossing today, you're not going
to cross cours. Look the president and you said he's
going to shut down all the borders.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
In between November and January, non stop roomors circulated in
giant WhatsApp groups. Trump was closing the border, Biden was
opening it. Most migrants didn't have the means to get
to the southern border even if they tried. CVP one
remained mostly useless, and people spent days, weeks, months refreshing
it to no avail. Those who did get appointments would
(29:41):
find them canceled once a new administration came into office.
Their reward for doing things in the so called right
way to be left with no options in a country
where they were anything but safe and far from home.
Mostly my friends in the jungle have retained their incredibly
good humor. Delithuel and friends video caught me once an
hour on a hike. They started laughing at me sweating
(30:02):
going uphill, and paused a conversation to shout encouragement for
a while. A year after I left the jungle, I
would still be more than happy to welcome these people
as my neighbors. But it seems unlikely I ever will
border crossings that drop dramatically. They're not as the administration
sometimes claims zero, but they are lower. People die crossing
(30:25):
the borders still. Sometimes the volunteers you've heard in my
last series have to hike miles into the desert and
sift through sand and rocks to search their remains. Once
nature scatism like leaves blowing around the canyons. Sometimes I'm
there with them. Sometimes we all wouldn't cross it up mountains.
So don't have names on the map to mark the
(30:45):
places where people's dreams died. Those people don't get a
viral video or a story in the New York Times,
because even at a time where people are more engaged
than they ever have been in my lifetime in advocacy
for migrants, there's still not much attention paid to the
actual border that every single migrant has to cross Tomorrow.
(31:07):
That's what we're going to talk about. Let's hear from
Primrose about her. That same day, January twentieth, went for her.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
Then they took us to the boat to the border,
but we couldn't get in the gates while they were closed.
Then they said no, we have an option, we need
to take you. But you know, for me, I had
to take it. It's because I was scared did to
stay in Mexico. So they took us with under the bridge,
(31:37):
I think the sewage. We were walking with our stomach
like under the bridge to we get to USA and
Mexican borders. So they put ladder for us to help
us to but we paid them three fifty three fifty.
They judge I found the other people. They also we
(31:58):
were fifteen years Yeah, then the up does to jump.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
now find sources for it Could Happen here listed directly
in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
Al Zone media.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Like most of you, I wasn't having a great day
on the twentieth of January of twenty twenty five. I
wasn't about to watch the inauguration, so I went for
a run in the mountains instead. I spent the next
few weeks trying to focus on the things we could do,
the things we had to do to get through four
years of fascism. Just a few miles away from my house,
(00:49):
I set out for my run, and unbeknown to me,
my friend Primrose was staring down from the top of
a thirty foot steel monument to hate Donald Trump had
built the last time he was president. To be ir accurate,
it was one that had modified. There have been versions
of the border wall in San Diego for decades.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
They said, no, we have an option. We need to
take you.
Speaker 4 (01:10):
But you know, for me, I had to take a
risk because I was scared to stay in Mexico. So
they took us with under the bridge, I think the sewage.
We were walking with our stomach like under the bridge
to get to USA and Mexican borders. So they put
(01:32):
ladder for us to help us. Those people when they
saw American immigration came, they just removed the ladder and
me I was on top. So I had yeah, I
was staged. Then I had no choice and the King
Balish was crying like calm, let's go, let's go.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
At that time I knew nothing about it, but her
daughter Kim had already jumped as a Biden press. He
drew to a close but before Trump began signing executive
orders with pens, he tossed into the crowd. She'd made
it into the US. Her mum was in the US
as well. The wall is inside the border, but the
people who had helped it get up to the top
(02:14):
of the war had fled when border patrol arrived, taking
their ladder with them, and so Primrose was left atop
the wall, the literal and metaphorical final hurdle in her
long and dangerous journey that had begun in Zimbabwe, who
went through South Africa, Brazil, Colombia, Panama, Costa Rica, Negaragua, Honduras,
Guatemala and Mexico. But before we come down from the
(02:42):
border wall, I want to take you back to the
miss Soak River bank of Maragante. Last September, Yah Daddy,
my fixer, and I had woken up at no godly hour,
and so had the jungle birds. Along with half the
population of the village, walked down to the riverbank, carrying
(03:02):
the engines and fuel tanks to the Piraguas. A few
minutes later, a chorus of two stroke engines and smoke
fired up as the boats set off towards Bajo Jaquito.
I stood in the bow, still trying to master the
use of the pole as we passed through the faster moving,
shallower water. Daddy sat in the middle and laughed at me.
(03:25):
Despite my best efforts, we arrived in one piece in
Bajo Chiquito, and I launched myself from the bow into
knee deep water on the rocky beach. In front of
us stood hundreds of people, patiently waiting for the Piragueros
to take them north and out of the jungle. Stretched
like a snake all the way through town. The line
of migrants must have totaled one thousand people. I walked
(03:46):
backwards away from the boats, the only foreigner not leaving
look for people i'd met the day before. About halfway
down the line stood Primrose and Kim, and I stopped
while we chatted for a bit about what the boat
was like, what they could expect next.
Speaker 3 (04:03):
Yeah I'm going there. Yeah, yeah, I'm going.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
To Do you have family?
Speaker 3 (04:07):
No?
Speaker 2 (04:08):
No, you just make your American life. No, it's okay.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
I think I'm just trying. No, it's only me and
I do it.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
Despite this, they had found community on the journey. I
can't describe how scary it must be for two women
to set out on this journey alone. It takes an
awful lot to embark on that journey and to be
able to trust people when everyone is a potential threat.
But if there's one thing I learned in a jungle,
it sit in the hardest times and the hardest places.
(04:37):
The only way forward is together. Primrose reminded me of this,
telling me how complete strangers had helped her.
Speaker 3 (04:46):
Very nice.
Speaker 4 (04:47):
This, especially these Spanish people, they are very nice. I
don't know into life was. If you need yop, you
forgot them for your look. The other ones they might
run away by the other ones, they just for They
even give us tablets on the road, give us energy drinks,
give my daughter a sweets for enage. They push us like,
(05:09):
let's go, guys, let's go, let's go. You make it,
and we really make it.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, that's really nice to hear. I asked Primrose a
question I asked everyone there. What did she hope for
when she got to America? What was her American dream?
What do you hope for her in America? What do
you want to do in America?
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I want to go to school, then she can I
see something in life. I don't wish my daughter to
go big, to same or no, not at all. Yeah,
it's really really.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I saw them a few days later last Blancas I've
read chat with a group of little Venezuelan children playing
a game where we'd throw bottletops into a broken half
cinder block. We talked about the struggle they faced to
pay for the bus north, and we didn't record anything
that day, But as I was leaving for the evening,
(06:16):
Kim asked me if I could buy her a drink.
I generally try not to splash my money around because
I don't have enough money to help everyone, and I
still have some scars from ridiculous concept of objectivity that
would lead some editors not to commission a story from
me if I gave the subject a gift. But this
time I felt like buying her a drink, and I
let her select the biggest bottle of cold soda she
(06:37):
could find in the little store in the camp there.
I told her and her mum to stay in touch
and wrote my number on a piece of my notebook,
tore it out and gave it to them. Months later,
Kim was holding the same scrap of paper, looking up
her mum stuck on the border wall. A whole lot
had changed since I last saw them. A few days
(06:57):
after my scriptured podcast and the Daddy and Gap was released,
the United States elected Donald Trump as his forty seventh president.
It was a ship month all round that My phone,
as it often does, lit up with messages from my
daddy and friends asking me what this meant and if
Trump was going to close the border. I didn't really
know how to answer those questions, because if as one
(07:17):
thing we know about Trumps, he changed his mind every
few weeks. As we got closer and closer to the
day he was inaugurated, they got more and more concerned.
Most of them hadn't made it out of southern Mexico.
Many of them had told me that things there were
even worse than the jungle. They'd all been robbed, some
of them had been sexually assaulted, some of them kidnapped
(07:39):
and some of them killed. I'd heard about all of
these things every day from September last year to January
this year. In the middle of a run, or when
I was having dinner meeting a friend for a coffee,
my phone would ring, and I'd be confronted with terrible injustice,
and I'd be totally powerless to set it right. As
(07:59):
time went on, I heard from fewer and fewer of them.
I assume their phones were stolen, but there are, of
course more upsetting explanations as to why they might have
stopped contacting me. Noemi, the little girl who wanted to
visit Minnie Mouse Video, called me once from Tapatula with
a little tiny toy bear that I'd given her and
that she kept with her on the whole journey. It
(08:20):
may be happy to see them, and a silly little
bear carved from soapstone that had traveled the lengths of
South America with them. Every few weeks after I'd left,
I'd get photos of the bear in a different country.
As a little Losito worked its way closer to Disneyland,
some people who worked at Disneyland had reached out to
off was suggestions about tickets other people had reached out,
offering to pay. I was, despite the odds, hoping that
(08:44):
one day I could help one little girl see her
American dream come true. When we spoke, she was with
her mum and they were trying to log onto CBP
one hoping for an appointment, but it wouldn't work on
their old Android phones. I tried to find shelters with
her liable internet that would take them in, and called
friends and endio's almost every week, passing along questions or
(09:05):
looking for resources. I spent hours calling, finding it hard
to accept that the capacity for mutual aid was so
overwhelmed that nobody had a safe space for little girl
and her mom, and wondering if it still felt like
a pepper Pig adventure or if even little indomitable Miami
was scared now. Even from where I was was a
(09:27):
fast Internet and a weather friends across the Western hemisphere,
I couldn't find the help people needed, and it made
me increasingly angry and anxious the more I tried. It sucked,
but there was still a chance, however slim, that one
day I might get to see Miami meet Minnie Mouse.
So I kept trying, and so did her mom. Then
(09:49):
one day I got no response from her mum's WhatsApp
when I messaged her, nobody picked up the phone when
I tried to ring. I still haven't had a response,
but artically I'll keep trying. Even the last messages and
photos are gone now after my words up updated. Like
so many of the people who I shared my food with,
whose little children held my hand in the darkness of
(10:11):
the jungle, who I desperately wished and wish I could
do more for, they're gone.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Now.
Speaker 2 (10:17):
That's what strong borders means. It means brave little girls
disappearing so a politician who knows nothing of their struggles
can point to a statistic. I've listened to the interview
I conducted with them so many times since last September.
I still can't really work out her. Anyone with a
heart could hear that and think they wanted to live
in a world where that little girl wasn't safe. But
(10:39):
that's what people voted for. I guess I don't think
they did. Actually I can't think they did. I think
people liked them, and that's what they voted for. But nonetheless,
here we are now, sitting in a country that didn't
want to help the little girl who flexed he around
muscles to show me how strong she was after climbing
the mountain into the most dangerous land migration route in
the Americas, and told me it was for her all
(11:02):
a adventure. Her mother gave a different account.
Speaker 5 (11:13):
I didn't want to cry because I didn't want her
to see me crying. But sometimes I would explode because
it's hard for your child to ask you for water,
to ask you for food, and you don't have any
to be in a place where you walk. You walk
from five in the morning, it's five in the afternoon.
You're walking, you don't know what to do, going through
more than one hundred rivers and asking God not to
rain and not wanting it to get worse. It rained,
(11:35):
and the girl got a fever. She got a fever.
But well, God is good that we pray a lot.
I say that we don't know God so much in
the church from the process and the process that we
are in, and we don't know we can be so
strong until we go through that storm and we see
that He protext us. He knows that He was always
there watching over us, taking care of us at all times.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
I don't want to dwell on this too long, because
talking in public about grief is something I'm bad at.
One of my friends died fighting in Ukraine this year.
A colleague died just weeks before we'd planned a trip together.
Some of my Burmese friends died fighting. But even as
someone who talks to soldiers for a living, nothing really
compares to the death toll inflicted by the US border regime.
(12:35):
The little village in England where I grew up, there
are memorials in every town a village for the young
people who died fighting in the World Wars. If we
built those at the border, they'd soon be towering far
above the wall that does so much of the killing.
Things are as bad now as they've ever been. The
wall construction in the San Diego sector that Trump administration
has proposed will wave environmental and cultural protections and push
(12:59):
micro further into the desert. In the desert, further from help,
further from water. More of them will die. Speak to
migrants all the time, the ones who stayed in Mexico,
even the ones who took the Venezuelan governments offers of
flights home. As much as they ask about America, they
also ask about each other. Do I know what happens
(13:21):
to the Angolans who shared their food too generously? They say, No,
I haven't heard from them.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
What about the.
Speaker 2 (13:27):
Venezuelan trans girl who braided their children's hair, Well, she's
still braiding hair, but she hasn't made it to the US. Gradually,
she did make it, and then she was immediately deported
back to southern Mexico. How about Rose, they say, the
Bolivian girl who came all on her own and founder
found me along the trail, only to be separated from them. Again.
I haven't heard from her in a year. Universally, they're
(13:50):
happy to hear about Kim and Primrose. They're glad to
hear that someone made it, that somebody can make it.
Because of the more than one hundred pages I tore
out of my note book with my phone number, they
are two of the three people who let me know
they made it here. So let's hear from Primerose about
what it looks like to make it here, how it
(14:10):
feels to have the best outcome of anyone I met.
Let's pick up at Las Blancas there now shattered migrant
reception center. We're a hundred language for weeks and months
trying to get together the money to pay for a
bus to the Panama Costa Lika border.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
I think I spent seven days in Banama. Oh what's
short with money? So I went into immigrash trying to
ask them if you can they can help me to
take a bus to Costa Rica, of which they say no,
you have to pay your sixty dollars.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
You're in your daughter which one India? So I pay that?
Speaker 4 (14:52):
So I ask you people, man, the people I know
they helped me with money saw Fromanama. We took it
a bus from Banama to Costa Rica.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
This is a very common story. People borrow money from
a huge range of friends and relatives along the way
they hope to get to the US, work hard, and
be able to pay it back. The whole process takes
every penny they've earned in their life and generates significant
amounts of debt. In most cases, this has made worse
by the fact that on arrival they will wait months,
(15:25):
if not years, for work permit, and their immigration judge
could stop the clock on this at any time for
any reason. Primros and Kim's case, Costaly can move them
through its territory quickly, as they do with nearly all migrants.
Next they arrived in Nicaragua.
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Yeah, to Nicaragua. Then in Nicaragua, I think we walk
from Costatica border to Nicaragua border. Then we walk again.
I think it was it was walk from Yah to
Nicaragua bus team. In US we just walk. Then we
when we reached there, we paid again to wander Us.
(16:07):
Then there's also place we walked from Honduras from nicarag
got to wander Us by stemin Us. I think it
just was the all day. Then from wander Us Guatemalam. Yeah,
in Guatemala we spent it three days again because it
(16:28):
was tough Guatemala. People they really need asking for a
lot of money. So my life was like asking people,
asking people and do it get and do we reach Mexico.
Speaker 2 (16:42):
Then exhausted and broke, she came made it to Mexico.
Then you only began in Zimbabwe and took them from
there to South Africa, then to Brazil and across the continent.
Now they had just warn more country to go before
they made it. But I say, where to find out
this one country is the one that so many migrants
don't make it out of.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
Then in Mexico. My life was like in this because
they were charging a lot of money. In In fact,
when we reached Mexico, we reached Tapatola and not before
ta Patula. I just forget the name. So they took
us in the bush where we paid money. Again, when
(17:28):
we paid money, they started teaching us. If we don't
live gus, then they walk with us. It was two
of midnight. They walk with us till they get a
transport to take us to Tappatola. So when I reached Tapachola,
you know people, we were giving information to each other.
(17:52):
So I was also following other people like from Cameroons
and Venezuela. So when we reached Tabachela, we reached Tarpatola
the tend of October twenty twenty four.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
Tapatula in the south of Mexico. It's where thousands of
migrants send up. The Mexican government at the time had
a policy of trying to keep people there and began
offering them free bus rides north. They had a CBP
one appointment. But unlike places like Tijuana, where there have
been migrants gathered for many decades, there are not as
many services in Tapatula and the shelters and services that
(18:26):
exist there are overwhelmed by the demand. The volume of
migrants and the relative absence of services leaves a space
open for abuse. That's what happened to Primrose and Kimberly.
They ended up paying someone who they thought could help
them navigate the complicated and convoluted system of registration in Mexico,
the CBP one app and then traveling north to the
(18:46):
USA and ultimately being able to make their asylum claim. Finally,
in the end, what they got was the opposite of help.
Speaker 4 (18:55):
Then the agents judge US four thousand each, which is
me four thousand, my daughter four thousand, of which I
was I wasn't lift that man other people that we're paying.
So I just talked to the agent. Then I said, okay,
you please go down a little bit because I'm a
(19:15):
single party. And then I don't have anyone to help
me with that kind of money. Then he said, okay,
three point five. So I started asking people become the
people I know, maybe they can help me. So I
have a lady who helped me with the money, which
is she gave me four thousand years. Then my mom
(19:41):
sell my land. I was saving a land with which
she saw which lays money. Then she saw even also
stuff to get another man to complete seven thousand. So
we asked someone to send it to America because in
Mexico they don't do this money from Africa. So I
(20:02):
found someone here in America to receive the man. So
he sent it to me in Mexico. But when I
paid the man, the agent took me. He said that
way I'm going to take you. So he sent the guys,
which there were four Mexican guys. So they came to
(20:23):
feature us. We were six seven. Yeah, I don't even
know where they took us. So they took us to
the to the bush which is Guajaradella. I can't even
remember it. Gajadella, Yeah, I think so. I spent the
day from October up to.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
January in the background. Here you're here splashing. That's came
playing in the pool. A little apartment complex where they
were living in East La I just comment for migrants
to share a flat with someone else. Didn't have much
in the way of furniture. The last time I saw
Primrose and Kim, it was by the Tuquesso River in
Las Blancas. There the brown water was something to be
(21:06):
afraid of. Migrants died crossing the river every day, swept
away by the fast moving water and relying only on
strangers to hold them as the current tried to pull
them in. A few times I walked out into that river.
I felt the tug of the current on my boots.
I wondered what it must be like higher up in
the mountains. At six foot three. The river I crossed
(21:27):
never came above waist high. It's deeper higher up. But
even then, reaching out my hand to carry someone's bag
or grab a child's hand as they came from other
direction and struggled to keep their toddlers and their few
positions out the current, I get little jolts of fear
when I stepped on a wet rock. His primrose talking
about that part of her journey.
Speaker 4 (21:46):
I was good, my daughter, she was strong, she was strong,
but she was crying also, but she had what wounds
all over their body? Even me, I was crying myself.
I was like, I want to just put myself in
the water, then I can just go both. The gain
was tough, really really tough. The mountain, the stones, the river.
(22:09):
It's not easy at all. It's not very I don't
even recommended someone to say you use that and give no.
And even myself I did know about it. I was
regretting myself. I was crying. I was like, God, I
don't know my family, and my family they don't know
where I am right now.
Speaker 2 (22:31):
Back in Los Angeles, primers told me that she'd fallen
in the river and two Venezuelan men had jumped in
to pull her and came out total strangers on their
own journey, had risked their lives to help a woman
child who didn't know, with whom they couldn't even speak.
The river kills people who drink it too. The concentration
of human waste and human remains in the water makes
(22:52):
it incredibly dangerous to drink, even for people dying of thirst.
I couldn't stop thinking of that river and how much
it scared people, Feeling so grateful the Kimberley could to
enjoy the water after all of that. Next time, I said,
they could take the train down to San Diego and
we could all go to the beach. Let's go back
(23:22):
to Mexico. Now to Guadalajara, where many migrants told me
that of all the things they had endured, including the jungle.
Things were the worst of all. Promoter's arrival in Mexico
had not been great, and having paid one person, she
was now being held by another group and asked for
yet more money.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
They were kidnipping me. They were asking for fifteen thousand
dollars each. They said, you're not going to take you
and I was crying. Kim, she was also crying. They
are that people. They will get money paid. Leave I
think from my group for the people they were kids napping.
(24:05):
It was only me left and they came and I
was crying depression.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
I didn't know, but I tried.
Speaker 4 (24:16):
I tried, you want to escape, run away? I failed
down and my leg was something else. I didn't even
go to hospital. My leg was swollen. And the way
they would treat us it was paid. Especially when I came.
The other one wanted touching me the whole board like
(24:38):
I was like, please, if you want to do something,
you can do it to me, and plus don't do
it in front of my daughter because she was also
crying disturbing. I didn't even go to hospital. I asked
them to go to hospital. The refuse, Yeah, James, I'm
(24:59):
doing no. I'm sorry because.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Primrose understandably had trouble even recounting this story. It's not
the sort of memory that's easy to share. But just
when things seemed to be beyond repair and when it
seemed like there was nothing to hope for, it was
Kimberly who came through to help her mom.
Speaker 4 (25:20):
Yeah, they no, so Kim Madish was like, uh, lending Spanish,
so she was understanding some of the winds.
Speaker 3 (25:29):
So she just tell this guy.
Speaker 4 (25:30):
Also was like, why can't you leave this woman because
she doesn't live money. Because those people they took my phone,
they even break it in front of my eyes.
Speaker 3 (25:42):
The fue I was leaving from Africa.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Kim Spanish was pretty good by the time I met
them in Los Angeles this summer. We went out for
dinner and I asked him what she'd like to eat.
She said she wanted to try seafood and practice of Spanish.
So we went to a Mexican seafood place, complete with
cabin decord, taxidermy fish on the wall, and the waitress
kindly helped Kim order in Spanish, patiently showing her different
(26:07):
menu items and smiling as Kim read them off. It
was a happy moment for me and what I didn't
think i'd ever be having when I moved here in
the bush Era, But that part of southern California has
always been a welcoming place for me. When I was
in my twenties and racing bugs for are Living, I'd
fly into Lax and often ended up spending the night
at Union Station or Alvera Street before taking a train
(26:28):
to San Diego. I speak Spanish. I always felt like
the people I met there were such a better reflection
of la than the portrayal we see of it in
the media. Now a decade and a half later, sitting
in a Mexican restaurant where a lady from Nadiqe helped
a little girl from Zimbabwe speak Spanish, it felt like
a little glimpse of the way we're told things are
here and the way they can be in working class communities.
(26:52):
A nation built by migrants, yes, on stolen land, but
one that nonetheless welcome people who needed help and took
the time to help them. Sadly, not everyone was helpful
on Camen Primaries this journey, and when her captains realized
she had no money to pay them, they eventually just
decided to let her go.
Speaker 4 (27:10):
Then I think on Januarist seven or fifth, I don't remember.
Then they just really took us. Then they just done us.
I don't even know. Then a star I saw an
immigration immigration officer with the guy with the car. Then
I stopped him. Then I translate to ask him to
(27:35):
Then they said, okay, get inside the car. They took
us to immigration, so we get a pass from there
to another town. Because I was like shifting, shifting, shifting,
asking to I get to Joanna. But those guys before
(27:56):
they told me like, wherever you go, even if you
are here in Mexico, we put uh a tricker for you.
So if you tell anyone, if we find you're going
to kill you. So me, I was scared. Yeah, I
was scared. So I didn't tell you. Even the immigration officer. Yeah, yeah,
(28:21):
Do I get to tea Joanna? So I we get
to join on the trendred of January. So I just
asked the Mexicans people. Then there's a guy as I said, okay,
I will try to help you, but you need to pay.
Then I said, I don't leave money. He said if
you don't have maney, we can't help you. So I
(28:42):
was like, oh, I only asking people asking every people
to help me and the other people that were just
opening me was I said, people, we look where I
am with my daughter, I'm far. But my family, the
other family, especially my my other family mem By, they
don't even know where I am. So those guys from Tijuana,
(29:09):
the guys, if you're not crossing today, you're not going
to cross cours. Look the president and you said he's
going to shut down all the borders.
Speaker 2 (29:18):
In between November and January, non stop roomors circulated in
giant WhatsApp groups. Trump was closing the border, Biden was
opening it. Most migrants didn't have the means to get
to the southern border even if they tried. CVP one
remained mostly useless, and people spent days, weeks, months refreshing
it to no avail. Those who did get appointments would
(29:41):
find them canceled once a new administration came into office.
Their reward for doing things in the so called right
way to be left with no options in a country
where they were anything but safe and far from home.
Mostly my friends in the jungle have retained their incredibly
good humor. Delithuel and friends video caught me once an
hour on a hike. They started laughing at me sweating
(30:02):
going uphill, and paused a conversation to shout encouragement for
a while. A year after I left the jungle, I
would still be more than happy to welcome these people
as my neighbors. But it seems unlikely I ever will
border crossings that drop dramatically. They're not as the administration
sometimes claims zero, but they are lower. People die crossing
(30:25):
the borders still. Sometimes the volunteers you've heard in my
last series have to hike miles into the desert and
sift through sand and rocks to search their remains. Once
nature scatism like leaves blowing around the canyons. Sometimes I'm
there with them. Sometimes we all wouldn't cross it up mountains.
So don't have names on the map to mark the
(30:45):
places where people's dreams died. Those people don't get a
viral video or a story in the New York Times,
because even at a time where people are more engaged
than they ever have been in my lifetime in advocacy
for migrants, there's still not much attention paid to the
actual border that every single migrant has to cross Tomorrow.
(31:07):
That's what we're going to talk about. Let's hear from
Primrose about her. That same day, January twentieth, went for her.
Speaker 4 (31:15):
Then they took us to the boat to the border,
but we couldn't get in the gates while they were closed.
Then they said no, we have an option, we need
to take you. But you know, for me, I had
to take it. It's because I was scared did to
stay in Mexico. So they took us with under the bridge,
(31:37):
I think the sewage. We were walking with our stomach
like under the bridge to we get to USA and
Mexican borders. So they put ladder for us to help
us to but we paid them three fifty three fifty.
They judge I found the other people. They also we
(31:58):
were fifteen years Yeah, then the up does to jump.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
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coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
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It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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