October 1, 2025 • 41 mins
James is joined by Dr. Tyler Black and Dr. Kaveh Hoda to discuss the MAHA claim that the medication Tylenol is increasing the incidence of autism.
Sources:
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/2817406
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media, Hello and welcome to the podcast. It's me
James today and I'm very lucky to be joined by
a couple of people who I'm about to introduce to
discuss the very important topic of does Tyler and old
give your baby autism? I think we probably already know
(00:22):
the answer, but nonetheless we have half an hour to
talk about it. So you were here, doctor Carve Hoder laughing,
that's uh, that's cave.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Many of you will know him, but he's a medical
doctor and host of the House of Pod podcast. And
I'm also joined by Tyler Black, who's a psychologist in
British Columbia. Welcome Tyler, chiatrist, psychiatrist. Fucked it up?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Them fighting words, James them fighting.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, no, I know, yeah, this is yes. Like when
people call me a sociologists, I understand, or even worse,
an anthropologist.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
It's a pleasure to be here and no worries.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Tyler is Canadian, so to see him correct somebody on
something and makes me happy.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I'm very sorry.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, but that's why we get him on.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
He's very sorry, he's very sorry about that. I love
Tyler very much. He comes on my show not infrequently
and one really pleasant thing that's happened. One little bright
spot in the last I don't know, five years of
terror that have been happening medically is seeing Tyler gradually
over time become grumpier and I'm more willing to fight.
(01:27):
That's the only bright spot I've had. Thank you Tyler
for that.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah, I imagine that's the side effect of your consumption
of a seat of metaphana.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Maybe send me to you.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, I got a cut back, bro got cut back.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, all right. For those not familiar, why are we
talking about Tyler and All? Might be the name you're
familiar if you, especially of your American people, like to
use brand names a little more. I still find that
very confusing, and I've lived here for a better part
of two decades. But why are we talking about time
and all?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Tyler? Do you want to introduce this concept?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Sure so, Yeah, tilan all goes by Parascenamol in UK
and other places in the world. It's a seed of
minifin here. So it really is not talking about talent,
although the shorthand that the political people who've been talking
about it have specifically called out the brand Talentol, which
is bizarre. But this stems from both a mission that
(02:21):
RFK Junior when he took over as the HHS sort
of had, which was to find the cause of autism,
which is his political quest to find some environmental cause.
I mean, he started as an environmental lawyer. I don't
think he's doing this disingenuously. I think he truly believes
there was an environmental cause to autism. But of course
(02:42):
RFK wheeled science probably driven by the brainworm, and so
he has this way of having a conclusion and finding
the science to support it. And it was very clear
that he was going to point towards vaccine vaccine schedule,
and at some point this is definitely coming. I think
this might be a roundabout way to do it through
fevers and talinol. But the talental link is something that
(03:06):
has been a question mark. So a really quick aside
will be that when drugs are regulated, the drug companies
have very little natural interest to study it in pregnant people.
It only brings them risk. There's no reason to do it.
You are required to submit what studies you have on
animal toxicity in utero and these types of things, but
not really that much for humans, and so the drug
(03:27):
companies usually put their hands up and go talk to
your doctor about using this, and then the rest of
us in medicine have to take that information that's been
generated about this medication and try and interpret it on
pregnant people. And it creates this system where we create
the evidence over the next twenty years in what we
call pharmacal vigilids or post marketing studies, where we basically,
(03:50):
has there been a problem, did we find any birth effects?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You know?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
And we kind of do it backwards. It's kind of
makes sense because you couldn't really do an RCAT on
pregnant women to star with if you didn't know any
reason for the drugs. So it's one of those sort
of loopholes. And so this natural conversation has resulted in
science that points in a number of directions. Does the
cedamnifite cause autism? Can't be answered by the current science
(04:14):
because it's all cohort data, it's looking backwards, it's looking
at populations. It's confounded. However, the best study was published
in twenty twenty four, which makes the timing of this
announcement really awkward. There was two point five million people.
It was a believe it's a Danish study Swedish study. Okay,
and in that study there was a small link found,
(04:35):
but because they had two point five million people, they
could check that link by looking at sibling pairs within
that two point five million. So in that group they
had sixteen thousand sibling pairs both exposed to and not
exposed to acetaminifin, and lo and behold they found that
there was no relationship there. So this really is one
of the more definitive correlational studies that says pretty much,
(04:58):
any effect we're seeing is probably confounded. It probably isn't
due to a cinemenifin. Though there are some animal studies
that might hint at it, it appears to be minor
and k I see are about to say something.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, First of all, that's exactly right. I think that
there are a lot of things that Maha and RFK
Junior talk about that are just insane, and you can
dismiss out of hand. This is a topic that is
not complete rubbish. It is something that has a little
bit of nuance and we can talk about as Tyler
was just mentioning, there is some evidence that there might
(05:30):
be a small relationship, but the real key is determining
if it's a causal relationship or just correlative. Are they
just related for some reason or another, or are they
caused by each other? And that study that he talked about,
that Swedish study looked at about one hundred and eighty
thousand infants that had parents that were exposed to a cinemenafin.
(05:51):
What's really elegant about that is that it looked at
the siblings. That's why it's such an important study. And
that's what I say, it closes the door on the matter.
I agree with Tyler. I think the preponderance of evidence
now is that there is no connection between town law
and autism. But I don't know if this study totally
closes the door. It is really well done though. So
(06:12):
they showed that if you look at siblings, if you
look at a family, there's no connection. You take out
some of the variables, you take out some of the
confounders there that can obfuscate or confuse an issue. You
take those out of the picture, and you see that
there's no relationship between town lam menaphin. What's interesting in
that same study that sweet To study, if they then
(06:35):
put those back in, if they didn't account for the siblings,
then Yeah, showed that there is a little bit of
evidence a small basic relationship between you know, senomenaphin and
developing autism. But once you start accounting for some of
these these really tough to account for variables, then you
(06:55):
start to see that that falls apart, and that implies
that most of these other studies are not causal but
correlative relationships.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
The sort of twenty twenty five update is and I
think this might have I think as that we learn
more about it, this might have been something that was
either solicited or developed in tandem with RFK and his goals.
But there was a publication in twenty twenty five by
I think the Harvard Dean of Medicine, who has been
a plaintiff's witness for attorneys battling talentol in developing autism.
(07:28):
So there is a bit of a financial conflict of
interest there, right, Yeah. Baccarelli, Yeah, doctor Baccarelli, who published
a study called a Navigation Review, and it's basically a
science y version of let me tell a story, and
here's the evidence that supports it. Basically, what they did
is they took the number of studies, they counted the
number that pointed towards talinol as a factor, and they
(07:50):
counted against it, and they found about twenty something in total.
The majority of them found a link to talent al
and autism, and then a minority found no link. But
of course that's not really how we do science. In
twenty twenty five, if we had two studies and you
can actually look at his studies, and some of these
studies are two hundred people, three hundred people, five hundred people,
(08:12):
and then you have this other study that's two point
five million people. You know, in the real world that
larger study would dwarf the significance of the other ones.
But in the way that this navigation study was set up,
they're all kind of equal. In fact, he treats the
non confounded sample that Cave was mentioning as its own study,
(08:32):
and then he treats the controlled sample with siblings as
its own studies. So the same study from Sweden was
cited twice, one four and one against. You can see
how you could shape a narrative, which is what a
narrative review is. It's when you shape a narrative. It's
not a very sciencey way to do things. We like
to do systematic reviews, and this did provide a bit
(08:55):
of cover because now everyone in AHHS can point to words.
This study by the Harvard Deed of Medicine, published in
BMC Environmental Study is peer reviewed showing that a navigational
study shows that there could be a link. But it
really if you read the study, any scientists reading it like, yeah,
there could be a link, but the largest study in
(09:16):
that group suggests there is no link.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Right, yeah, in terms of someone's playing games with evidence
when they've already decided what they completly would it be. Yeah,
let's talk about this fascination with autism that exists in
the MAHA. Right, make America healthy again. For those who
are not familiar what's happening here, people are probably diagnosed
with autism at a higher rate now than they were
(09:39):
when these people were young. Right, that is not however, well,
I will let you guys explain that. Explain how that
doesn't mean that we're giving children autism If that is
my understanding is.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Correct, sure, I mean I'll jump in first. So there's
a number of ways to test whether or not the
rate is truly increasing. So the first thing to say is,
over the world, I've seen a gradual increase in the
global population that has autism from about zero point eight
percent of the population to about two percent of the population.
(10:10):
That's what's happened over the past twenty five years of
studies across the world. Now, that's not exactly the exponential
rise that you often hear about in the United States.
The United States has a lot of unique features though.
You have a ton of people working in this area,
you have a ton of researchers, lots of people have
access to healthcare. There's many reasons why global numbers might
not look like American numbers, but the general idea behind
(10:32):
this increase rate of autism. Most of that increase is
due to our change in diagnostics in the way that
we label things. So when RFK was a kid, there
were kids that were excluded from school because they were
literally called retarded. They were not allowed to come to school.
They were known as spass and goofs, and they were
the ones that were made fun of and they struggled
throughout life. Now that were they called autistic, No, did
(10:55):
they have the same symptoms that the kids today that
are being diagnosed with autism have And the way that
we can control for that or there's some really elegant studies.
One is we take diagnostic criteria from children and then
we ask adults currently living today to go through a
structured interview looking for those things. And yes, what we
find the same rate in adults that we see in kids.
(11:18):
This idea that it's an exponential rate. Now, I think
the rate is also increasing, but I think it's increasing gradually,
and this is because the extreme of ages are having
kids more often, especially at the older end. And we
do know that older age is related to autism, especially
older age of the father. And we also know that
premature babies and babies with significant developmental disabilities are surviving
(11:42):
their post natal period as soon as they're born. Instead
of instantly dying or dying during childbirth or not being
able to be resuscitated, they're kept alive and survive and
this is good. But this does mean that there's more
neurodiversity in the world because of course these children have
encountered significant harm.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
And I agree with that. I do think that the
diagnostic criteria has expanded and that's part of why we
see more. But yeah, I think the two things we
know that are related are some genetic predisposition. If there's
people in the family that have it, and the older
age of patients, and as we get older. I'm an
older father myself. You know, you see more with older patients,
(12:23):
and that's more common now than it's ever been before.
So these are all a part of it. And once
you take a look, for example, going back to that
Swedish study in twenty twenty four that was so good,
that sibling study, looks at the genetics of it, And
once you count for the genetics of it, you start
to be able to say, Okay, maybe that's other stuff
like tile mall isn't important? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, is there a gender element to this as well? Yeah,
I may have misfremenbed here. My understanding is that women
FEN people tended to be diagnosed at a lower rate
until relatively recently.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, So not only is there a gender component, but
I do think that the bio logical sex of the
child has an impact on the genetic expression, because it
seems like the transmission to males is higher than the
transmission to females. So there might be something buffering about
that extra X chromosome. You know, we have this shrimpy
little Y chromosome that makes us all degenerates. You only
(13:16):
have one Y chromosome, Sorry, are you a super male?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
I have two wys caves y Why you know, Harry,
My ears are so there are a number of disorders
that the extra X chromosome is protective for, and I
do wonder if that's the case for autism.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
But what's also true is we have stereotypes about what
girls should be and what boys should be, and that
leads to boys being diagnosed with autism more frequently than girls.
So the girl that's quiet and awkward and anxious is
labeled as an anxious kid a lot more quickly than
when you see that in a boy that the parents
think autism or the clinician thinks autism. So there could
(13:55):
be some social reasons for that discrepancy as well. And
then the last thing I really wanted to say is
that the really tragic thing about all of this is
profound autism, which autism is the spectrum. Profound autism is
extremely disabling for people around the person. Generally, autistic people
enjoy their lives, especially if the world is set up
(14:15):
in a way so that they can live safely and
without impediment. Autistic people are perfectly content to be autistic,
and this whole idea of autism being this travesty, this epidemic,
this blight on society, is really doing a disservice to
the wide variety of people that we're now calling autistic,
because when our criteria expanded, we created a whole space
(14:38):
of autistic people who are very what we would call
non profound autism. These are people that have difficulties in
social communication or do the same thing over and over
despite it being at an abnormal level, but it's what
they need to soothe themselves, you know, that will be
called autism.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Now.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Now, would a parent want a child who's in a
home constant rocking back and forth and just soothing themselves
by licking their fingers or whatever, you know, some very
severe autistic behavior. No, that probably wouldn't be the parents ideal.
But I've worked with so much autism in my life.
I'm a child anadists and psychiatrist. They've seen so many
artistic kids. They can live happy, happy, happy lives autistic,
(15:20):
So I'm not a fan of the blight sort of
messaging of it either.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned that, because that's one
of the worst things about in a sense, one of
the most damaging things about is where people who are
living happy, healthy and fulfilled lives are being like slandered
or pathologized to rided by the government of this country.
And that's fucked yeah, and I'm sure will have an
impact on those people because it would have an impact
(15:44):
on anyone to see this condition that, as you said, right, like,
maybe difficult for people who are not familiar with it
to navigate, but it doesn't mean that you can't have
a fulfilling and happy and very pleasant life. Suddenly suggested
it some kind of massively disabling and terror travesty and
that the person who gave birth to you is to
blame for this, right.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Right, That's what really bothers me, is like we're always
trying to find ways to blame mothers. This is this
is this is a mantle and I apologize for that. Listener,
please don't at me for that. But part of what
this is is like control over women. And you know,
while that Swedish study of mention may not completely close
(16:26):
the issue, I think it's pretty clear that the evidence
pretty strong against there being a connection between taal Mual
and to make a whole sale governmental recommendation that as
a country, for us to move this way, to make
such strong claims, to have a president come out and
just say grit your teeth and bear it. To women
(16:47):
in regards to the one medicine that we've told them
they can use during a pregnancy is insane to me.
So there's the autism issue and the insult essentially to
that community, but also to women in general. It's insane
to me that this is happening right now. Again, there
is a bit of nuance to this issue. As I mentioned,
it's not like totally insane to ask about and question it,
(17:09):
but to make a wholesale directional change in how we
recommend managing patients with our pregnant is is nuts. It's
just nuts.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, And to piggyback on that, you know, like it's
really normal. It was normal advice in twenty twenty four
for us to say, yeah, you can use talan all,
but try to use it sparingly. We're not really sure
use it when you need it though, because we do
know that pain and fever and these types of things
are bad for the baby, right, you know, So this
kind of way in which it's now been massaged, So
(17:41):
I saw a letter from doctor Marty Mackeriy, who's another
grifter who's now in the American political system. There has
written a letter basically saying at the bottom, use it judiciously,
and it is the only one that's proved so. But
that's exactly where we were before. There was no need
for a past conference every doctor saying, use talanol sparingly,
(18:01):
but you can use it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
James, Can I tell you what's driving me crazy about this? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Please?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
This administration has done something. Trump in general has done
something that has blown my mind, which is somehow, time
and time again, I find myself defending people and things
that I would never want to defend. Like, first of
on watching Jimmy Kimmel, I don't know how that happened. Yes,
(18:27):
I blame Trump for that. Second, like tylanol is a
dangerous medication. I'm a liver doc. Yes, ideal, Like tylanol
overdose is causing acute liver injury and acute liver failure
is a massive, real issue across the world, and it is.
It's it's a real thing. So there are reasons that
(18:49):
we should be watchful of tailanol, but this is not
one of them. Right.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, personally, I'm a champion of all tailanol should be
like the UK, it should be in individually wrapped pieces
because there is evidence that that reduces the rate of
intentional overdose and even icy overdoses that cause liver failure.
So yeah, take away freedoms.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah right, this is the medical freedom crowd. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, we should take an advertising break and then come back.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
So we'll do that. Oh god, that would be fantastic
if I could take an advertise. I could use an
ad right now.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So badyup. It's going to be for fucking lemon pepper water,
which is the only pain treatment you should be taking.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Bark to put between your teeth.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Sure, yea, go get some leaves and fucking eat them.
What can get wrong? All right, we're back. Thank you
for that message from Leaf Pain Relief.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Get the spot, it's good.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Don't eat leaves. I saw someone posing with a they
were taking their graduation pitch. Is very nice setting. I'm
not going to say the flour, I guess just in case.
You know, you can call it quite remarkable hallucinations and
it is not a good idea to be like.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Half in it.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, it's a nice looking flower. You didn't know you
might have.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, now I want to know what the hell you're
talking about. You're gonna tell me later. I'm assuming you
lived in California your whole life. How do you not
know this? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
It text you afterwards?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Them dandelions? Is it dandelions?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I've been told not to roses.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
It reminds me though there was a TikTok video of
there's been a few of women proudly being pregnant and
ingesting talanol. And to be clear, that's an insane response
to this problem, Like, please don't take talanol as a point,
as k was saying before the break, right, Helenol does
deplete the glutathion in your body, and it is toxic
to your liver. If you're a deliver, doesn't have the
(20:41):
glue to thion necessary, it directly injures the liver. And
this is what happens when you take an overdose, is
it overwhelms the amount of gluteothion that your liver has
and it causes liver damage.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So in most pregnant women who want to keep the
baby are very judicious to begin with, not just like
downing shit. Willy nilly, you know what I mean? Like
they're like, oh god, this is really bad. I bear
take something and talent all, by the way, sucks, you know,
as a pain medicine. You know it's not gonna It's
(21:12):
like the thing you take when they won't give you
anything else that's not a great one. So to take
it from them without a good reason, without a proposed mechanism.
If you're gonna make extraordinary claims, you have to have,
if not extraordinary evidence por ponderance of it. So this
is really bothering me, as you can tell, because it
does not exist.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah. I think something you mentioned earlier, like when like
you said, you're back to to a corner where you're
defending like a big farmer and tynel specifically, is the
one thing that they've tried to do is like inhabit
nuance and then disingenuously use it absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yes, yes, that's the entire anti vaccines.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah, right, and then it leads to people responding
in a way that it raises nuance entirely. I understand
where we get that response, but like it's not the
correct response, right, Yeah. People want you to be like
this is one hundred percent safe, right. They want you
to say this is actually the perfect medication and it's
fine and you should have it for breakfast.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah, And the AHHS tweeted out statement that Talanol did
in twenty seventeen basically saying, we don't recommend talent all
and pregnancy. But no drug maker recommends any medication. They
all say, specifically, talk to your doctor about this medication.
They're not allowed to recommend the medication. Only doctors can't.
So when they're using that language and then HHS tweets
(22:33):
it out, HHS is tweeting it out specifically to give
the illusion that we don't want pregnant people to be
taking this medication. They specifically said we don't recommend it,
and that's a nuance and that's how they use it.
And it just sucks.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Right, that's exactly right, and title mall the makers of it.
By the way, I am curious about the fact that
Johnson Johnson spun Off can view. I wonder if they
knew this was coming and that's why they did it
the same way that DuPont spun Off.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
It was only three years ago that they did that,
you know, more.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Like DuPont spun Off, the company in charge of all
their pfasts they're forever chemicals because they knew shit was
coming down the pipeline. I wonder if that was the
same reason here Title Law did this.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
They put band aid and nutrigena in the same group,
so I think it was more just to consolidate home stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Interesting. Yeah, got a.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Press conference coming next week about band aid.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
It's can sick cause anxiety. Anyways, It's very interesting to
me that this is happening at all. Really. I mean,
what I thought was interesting about the press conference, and
I wonder if you guys picked up on this too,
was you know, I was wondering, why is this pivot happening?
How can RFK Junior be happy about this? He can't
(23:41):
be happy about leaving his crusade against vaccine. The Mohawk
community behind him clearly doesn't love that aspect, and I
wonder why they were pivoting to that, And I wonder
what you guys think about that. I did feel that
during that press conference, Trump really went out of his
way to sort of give lip service we should we
should talk about this too, about vaccines. He talked about
(24:03):
vaccines a lot, even though there's no new evidence about
vaccines causing problems, and Trump gave this terrible advice about
breaking up the vaccines, which we know is a terrible
idea because that's going to lead to decrease uptake overall,
the more visits you have to go back to, the
less likely you're going to do it, so the more
likely you're not going to be vaccinated. But it made
me wonder why this is happening now, why they decided
(24:24):
to make this pivot, and I wonder what you both
think about that.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
My theory is the link with fevers. If I'm being
really conspiratorial, I would say that they're going to try
and link vaccine induced fever to autism, and they're going
to say, oh, we thought it was the tile and all,
but it turns out to be the vaccines.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It's the fever, and the fever is caused by the
vaccine gines. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, My theory is gender. I think that telling pregnant
people to suck it up is then you've got you know,
you're dude still standing on the podium there, right, You're
pregnant people are going to be women. It's something that
men have been doing to women for millennia. Like it's
a safer bet than yeah, your kid might die, but
you know, you never know.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, yeah, which actually is you know. That brings up
another thing that I think we should talk about, which
is what Trump kept saying. Trump kept saying, don't take it,
but he was like, what's the worst that happens? Nothing
bad will come of it. So it invokes this precautionary principle,
which is like, you know, why not avoid the talent all,
what's the worst that can happen? And that doesn't work here. No,
(25:33):
because we know that people are taking this for a fever.
Tal Law is not good for inflammation, doesn't work on
inflammation the way advilbbiprofene does it. But it can work
on a fever. And we know that fever can have
some risk at least as much, if not more than
tilentol in harm to the baby, in harm to the pregnancy.
(25:54):
So to me, the precautionary principle just doesn't apply here.
And to hear the president, I never heard a president
give medical advice before like that. It blew my mind.
I felt like I was disassociating while I was watching this.
I'm like, this cannot be realized. He said it so unequivocally,
don't take talentol.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Just it up. And I tweeted something that I read
from doctor Glockenplocken, who's one of my favorite medical comedians.
But he said this will kill people, and I do agree.
I think people were very incredulous when I when I
said this will kill people, and they were like, what
do you mean people dying of a fever. I'm like, yeah,
kind of like fevers can be really bad for you.
(26:32):
And if you're not going to hospital and the only
thing you have is talentol, it's a really good idea
to take the talent ol. And there's some people that
don't go to hospital for lots of reasons, and fevers
can kill you. They just can.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So I disapprove of the Canadian and englishmen referring to
the hospital as hospital. They need you guys to refer
to it as of the hospital.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Forgotten about that? Yeah, always for the definite article.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, taking it to a hospital, Thank you guys.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But yeah, I think you're right like that. There is
no like no harm option here, right, like that is
a damage is done when people don't take this, right.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I just imagine this this poor mom you know at home,
you know doesn't have great healthcare, but does have a
bottle of talentol and is battling a sorry, I'll americanize
this like one hundred and four degree fever.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Thank you don't make me do mad?
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, you're to make me do mad, you know. And
and you know, it's it's around that one hundred and
three hundred and four mark where we actually get really
worried about the person's brain. We get really worried about
their health and what's going to happen, and what would
happen to that person in hospital? They would absolutely get
talent al right away, prescribed by a doctor right that moment.
And so I worry about this. I worry about this
(27:39):
mom presenting a hospital with her fever. She's pregnant, and
the doctors say, okay, we're going to give you talinol,
and she says, no, you're right, what because I don't
want I don't want my child to have autism? Because
people are listening to this guy. First of all, again
the hospital. Second, they're going to listen to this guy.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
It's insane.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
People are really going to take this advice. And I
could see, you know, especially the more Trump following people
saying you will never give me talentol, not in this hospital, right,
And so it does sound silly that not taking talentol
could kill you. But if you're so scared of talentol
because it causes autism that you don't take it when
it's recommended to you by a doctor, where it's prescribed
(28:18):
to you by doctor, you could die. And I won't
be surprised when there are more fever induced deaths in
twenty twenty five and twenty twenty six in the United States.
I already have the CDC Wonder Data search ready to
go because I study mortality all the time, and I
am absolutely sure we're going to see a few more
fever induced deaths than we would have previously.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Geez, yeah, maybe like we can finish up by explaining
to people like, you know, if you're talking to someone
in your family, right, someone who maybe isn't a listener
(29:00):
to either of our podcasts. I know this isn't directly
the area either of you specializing, but from what I understand,
pregnant people like the way that drugs are categorized, as
we spoke about earlier on. There's not like, yeah, go
ahead and take all of these, right, there's like probably
fine if you have to, probably a bad idea unless
you really need to, and like maybe some straight up don't. Yeah,
(29:24):
can you explain that for people?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Sure, So there's a classification system and it's technical, but
it's exactly like that. There are very few medications that
are like totally fine. These are medications that are given
during pregnancy that have been well studied in pregnancy. But
for the most part, pretty much everything else in my
world of psychiatry, you know, SSRIs and antipsychotics and benzodiazepines
(29:47):
and whatnot, they all have the same classification, which is
basically contraindicated, don't take it unless your doctor persudes it
for you. Now, we still get pregnant people with depression
and psychosis and who need all these medications, and so
we do have to interpret it based off of the
data that we have, and the data that we have
(30:07):
always comes late, so if we find a problem, it's
found too late, and generally it's precautionary. So typically I
don't know cave if there's a similar thing in GI work,
But like for me, I'll get a call all the time. Well,
we have this woman, she's thirty two, she's really worried.
She normally takes antidepressants, but she's thinking about stopping them
because she's really worried about passing into her baby or whatever.
(30:30):
And I'm like, how bad is the depression. Well, it
was really bad. She was hospitalized three times and nearly died.
I was like, probably want to keep antidepressant treatment going
and just let her know that there could be some
harm to the fetus. But depression is way worse. And
if we just go with God, you know, do your best.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
There are certain medications where we are going to say
you absolute should take these during pregnancy. Yeah, and you
should discuss that with your obstrician, to talk that over
with yourcologist and your your primary care doctor. You should
talk it over with your medical team. That's great, But
every medication has some small amount of risk, some larger
(31:09):
than others. But it's really about the risk versus the benefit.
And this has been well studied by the experts, and
what you've heard, what those people have heard from Trump
and RFK Junior is well outside of the normal recommendations
from the experts like the ACOG, the American College of Obstetricians,
(31:31):
and kindecologists, the people who have been keeping our pregnant
patients alive and relatively well for many many years. This
is well outside of those recommendations. And while it's an
interesting topic and I think, maybe, you know, sure, i'd
like to see more studies on it, I'm never going
to say don't study this more. I would say that
(31:52):
the preponderance of evidence and scientific belief and medical belief
in this one goes against what they're saying. And I
would say, least talk it over with your doctor. If
you have a question, talk it over with your doctor.
And that's you mentioned it before. Town law has sort
of like, you know, try to hedge its bets by saying,
talk it over with your doctor. But the reason they
(32:13):
do that is they know most doctors are going to
be reasonable about this and follow the scientific evidence that's there.
So I would say if they really have a question,
they should talk about with their doctor. Because Trump, whether
or not they love him or not, this is well
out of his range of understanding, and he is getting
It's like a game of telephone. He's getting a version
(32:34):
of the medical information transmit to him by RFK Junior,
who is getting a weird version of it from his
belief system, and it's being supported by people who are
there solely just just there to do the beck and
call of Trump at this point, and that's super dangerous.
And so if they can keep an open mind about it,
(32:56):
talk it over with their doctor, continues to do what
their parents did, I think they're going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, real quick, because like for reasons that are life
you related to the way that we do healthcare in
the United States, people sometimes are retident to talk to
their doctor, unable to talk to a doctor. Reliable sources
of medical information versus the shit that you find on Google.
Give us like a five minute primer.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
So you know, in almost every jurisdiction there is an
official health agency that you can go to their website
and get good health data. So in BC, we have
Health Length BC and there's a number that you can
call to speak to a nurse. In America, you have
great I would say it used to be great. Like
Cleveland Clinic used to be really great, but they got
a little hokey. I would still say, you know, there
(33:41):
are some really good American places that you can go.
Male Clinic has a lot of public facing information that
has pretty good general descriptions, but just make sure it's
from a place that is official because there is a
whole space now that's going to be opened up because
the second part of this present that RFK gave was
(34:01):
about a generic medication that might help some people with
a very specific form of autism. And I promise you
the amount of huckstering that's going to happen based on that.
The alternatives. You know, we made a joke about lemon
water before the ad break, but there are going to
be people who are going to be selling the alternative
titalinol that is autism free, and that's really worrisome.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, be wary of anyone that has something in their Instagram,
their talk, their wellness post that uses the words detox.
Be wary about ancient remedies. Be wary about anyone that
is selling something like doctor Oz, who, by the way,
(34:45):
sells a version of the full linic acid or the
leucovorin that they're talking about here, So be wary about that.
We don't sell shit. Be wary about people like doctor Baccarelli,
the dean of Harvard Epidemiology, who, by the way, I've
heard is a doctor from the friends I have in Harvard,
they say he's not a bad guy. But be worry
(35:05):
about the fact anytime you see someone's making one hundred
and fifty thousand dollars off of court trial to sue
tail and all and has a vested interest in these things,
so you should be worry about those things. That's definitely
something to look for in if you're looking for trusted source.
Speaking of hucksters, you could listen to my podcast The
House of Pod anywhere you find podcasts where we're going
(35:27):
to talk about medical stuff just like this, and I
will bring you trusted sources.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Beautiful. That's that was all a long play to get
to listen to Kave's podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I'm in it for the long con. I'm in it
for the long con, buddy.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, thank you for helping us clear that up a bit.
I think it's it's a real rough time for healthcare
in general, and especially people with autism, like like well
nero divergent people. It really fucking sucks to see the
entire federal government bad mouthing people. So, yeah, we are
thinking of.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
You, very similar to the issue with trans kids. Like
I'm a Canadian, you know, and we have right next
door to my province, Alberta, which is very much taking
the route of Florida and other things with respect to
trans policies, and it's just got to suck to be
a trans kid in Florida right now. It's got to
suck to be a trans kid anywhere in America right now,
(36:18):
knowing what's coming down the pipeline. And it'll be the
same for people with autism and families with autistic kids.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, yep. I could conservatively complain about this for another
three hours.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
We didn't even talk about hepatitis B. By the way,
we even talk about hepatities. People can talk about this
on the point. There's just so much. There's so much,
and it's so terrible, and you're absolutely right, it's really
like for that community right now.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
By the way, I wanted to debunk something because it's
been said multiple times.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
RFK and a whole bunch of people have said, I
didn't know anybody autistic when I was you know, when
I was a kid or whatever. I've never met someone
autistic my age. Donald Triplett was the very first person
diagnosed with autism in nineteen forty three, I believe nineteen
forty three. He just died last year. I think he
was something like eighty ninety years old. Okay, autistic people
(37:13):
are old too. This idea that there aren't old autistic
people is so asked backwards. It was just not diagnosed. Yes,
And it's such a shame because when Donald Triplett passed,
you know, like people in psychiatry notes, that's not the
type of thing that people in the world noticed. But
he was the very first autistic person. He lived a
(37:35):
full life, he was an engineer. He had autism, it
was diagnosed. He was the first ever case diagnosed, and
he also lived a life. And so for rfk to
just erase him completely and say I've never known an
old person to have autism is just ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, and if you conduct yourself as Rskade does, but
being a piece of shit to neurodivergent people, then even
people who have been diagnosed, I'm just going to be like, hey,
and yeah, I wanted to talk to you about more
about life because you're being a turn to them and
like you're being unkind, Yeah, like what do you expect?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, Tyler Brandon is like how old
is she now? Like in her seventies. I mean, it's
it's absurd to think that this is a totally new thing.
I mean, it also tells me that he was probably
a bit sheltered and it probably didn't mean enough people.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Wow Kennedy sheltered?
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Well yeah, yeah, he's had a different experience of life
than any of us. It's fair to say.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I got through the whole podcast without making a toddler
and all pun. I'm very proud of that. I usually
do pretty much every time, and it kisses my wife
off so much.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I'm really proud of you.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Man.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
You showed a lot of growth.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's great. I was gonna make one, but
I didn't want to want to offend. Yeah, thank you
very much. Where can people find both of you on
the internet if they'd like to, oh, you know, in person?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Don't find me? Yeah, I give that as You can
listen to my podcast, The House of Pod. Anywhere you
listen to podcasts, you'll hear people like James, you'll hear
people like Tyler. Last time Tyler was on was actually
for episode two eighty four. We did an episode on
Adult ADHD with author Rex King. She's rad So that's
a good episode to listen to. And you can find
(39:21):
me on Blue Sky at CAVEMD. I still have a
Twitter account and Instagram account, but I don't really use
those that much. So find me on Blue Sky Blue Sky,
by the way as a shout out, as a plug.
I think it's good for science if you're interested in
science based stuff. It may not be that much fun
for everything else, but at least in terms of like
if you want to follow doctors scientists, that's a good
(39:42):
place to go. That's that's where a lot of us
have gone. So I'll be there at Blue Sky.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, and I'm I am still on Twitter Tyler Black
thirty two. I'm slugging it out. It is a lot
of hate and a lot of death threats now, especially
as I've I've been on a few trans podcasts, I've
been on quite a few medical anti vacs and vaccine podcasts,
So you know, I'll pop up from time to time
on a podcast or something, but I'm not really have
(40:08):
anything to plug anymore. I'm just really hoping that we
can continue to fight this sort of It's a really
disgusting reality in this decade that misinformation has won the
day and literally misinformers are the political leaders now, and
misinformation has just eroded science to the point where I
(40:28):
don't know if America is ever going to get it back.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, if we do, this has set us back many years.
This has set us back many many years. Yeah, it's
pretty bleak.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Well that was fun.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
De's send on that hopeful note. Yeah, all right, it.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Could happen Here is a production or Cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
now find sources for It Could Happen here, listed directly
in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
Also media, Hello and welcome to the podcast. It's me
James today and I'm very lucky to be joined by
a couple of people who I'm about to introduce to
discuss the very important topic of does Tyler and old
give your baby autism? I think we probably already know
(00:22):
the answer, but nonetheless we have half an hour to
talk about it. So you were here, doctor Carve Hoder laughing,
that's uh, that's cave.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:31):
Many of you will know him, but he's a medical
doctor and host of the House of Pod podcast. And
I'm also joined by Tyler Black, who's a psychologist in
British Columbia. Welcome Tyler, chiatrist, psychiatrist. Fucked it up?
Speaker 2 (00:44):
Them fighting words, James them fighting.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
Yeah, no, I know, yeah, this is yes. Like when
people call me a sociologists, I understand, or even worse,
an anthropologist.
Speaker 3 (00:54):
It's a pleasure to be here and no worries.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
Tyler is Canadian, so to see him correct somebody on
something and makes me happy.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
I'm very sorry.
Speaker 1 (01:02):
Yeah, but that's why we get him on.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
He's very sorry, he's very sorry about that. I love
Tyler very much. He comes on my show not infrequently
and one really pleasant thing that's happened. One little bright
spot in the last I don't know, five years of
terror that have been happening medically is seeing Tyler gradually
over time become grumpier and I'm more willing to fight.
(01:27):
That's the only bright spot I've had. Thank you Tyler
for that.
Speaker 1 (01:30):
Yeah, I imagine that's the side effect of your consumption
of a seat of metaphana.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
Maybe send me to you.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, I got a cut back, bro got cut back.
Speaker 1 (01:40):
Yeah, all right. For those not familiar, why are we
talking about Tyler and All? Might be the name you're
familiar if you, especially of your American people, like to
use brand names a little more. I still find that
very confusing, and I've lived here for a better part
of two decades. But why are we talking about time
and all?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Tyler? Do you want to introduce this concept?
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Sure so, Yeah, tilan all goes by Parascenamol in UK
and other places in the world. It's a seed of
minifin here. So it really is not talking about talent,
although the shorthand that the political people who've been talking
about it have specifically called out the brand Talentol, which
is bizarre. But this stems from both a mission that
(02:21):
RFK Junior when he took over as the HHS sort
of had, which was to find the cause of autism,
which is his political quest to find some environmental cause.
I mean, he started as an environmental lawyer. I don't
think he's doing this disingenuously. I think he truly believes
there was an environmental cause to autism. But of course
(02:42):
RFK wheeled science probably driven by the brainworm, and so
he has this way of having a conclusion and finding
the science to support it. And it was very clear
that he was going to point towards vaccine vaccine schedule,
and at some point this is definitely coming. I think
this might be a roundabout way to do it through
fevers and talinol. But the talental link is something that
(03:06):
has been a question mark. So a really quick aside
will be that when drugs are regulated, the drug companies
have very little natural interest to study it in pregnant people.
It only brings them risk. There's no reason to do it.
You are required to submit what studies you have on
animal toxicity in utero and these types of things, but
not really that much for humans, and so the drug
(03:27):
companies usually put their hands up and go talk to
your doctor about using this, and then the rest of
us in medicine have to take that information that's been
generated about this medication and try and interpret it on
pregnant people. And it creates this system where we create
the evidence over the next twenty years in what we
call pharmacal vigilids or post marketing studies, where we basically,
(03:50):
has there been a problem, did we find any birth effects?
Speaker 2 (03:53):
You know?
Speaker 3 (03:54):
And we kind of do it backwards. It's kind of
makes sense because you couldn't really do an RCAT on
pregnant women to star with if you didn't know any
reason for the drugs. So it's one of those sort
of loopholes. And so this natural conversation has resulted in
science that points in a number of directions. Does the
cedamnifite cause autism? Can't be answered by the current science
(04:14):
because it's all cohort data, it's looking backwards, it's looking
at populations. It's confounded. However, the best study was published
in twenty twenty four, which makes the timing of this
announcement really awkward. There was two point five million people.
It was a believe it's a Danish study Swedish study. Okay,
and in that study there was a small link found,
(04:35):
but because they had two point five million people, they
could check that link by looking at sibling pairs within
that two point five million. So in that group they
had sixteen thousand sibling pairs both exposed to and not
exposed to acetaminifin, and lo and behold they found that
there was no relationship there. So this really is one
of the more definitive correlational studies that says pretty much,
(04:58):
any effect we're seeing is probably confounded. It probably isn't
due to a cinemenifin. Though there are some animal studies
that might hint at it, it appears to be minor
and k I see are about to say something.
Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, First of all, that's exactly right. I think that
there are a lot of things that Maha and RFK
Junior talk about that are just insane, and you can
dismiss out of hand. This is a topic that is
not complete rubbish. It is something that has a little
bit of nuance and we can talk about as Tyler
was just mentioning, there is some evidence that there might
(05:30):
be a small relationship, but the real key is determining
if it's a causal relationship or just correlative. Are they
just related for some reason or another, or are they
caused by each other? And that study that he talked about,
that Swedish study looked at about one hundred and eighty
thousand infants that had parents that were exposed to a cinemenafin.
(05:51):
What's really elegant about that is that it looked at
the siblings. That's why it's such an important study. And
that's what I say, it closes the door on the matter.
I agree with Tyler. I think the preponderance of evidence
now is that there is no connection between town law
and autism. But I don't know if this study totally
closes the door. It is really well done though. So
(06:12):
they showed that if you look at siblings, if you
look at a family, there's no connection. You take out
some of the variables, you take out some of the
confounders there that can obfuscate or confuse an issue. You
take those out of the picture, and you see that
there's no relationship between town lam menaphin. What's interesting in
that same study that sweet To study, if they then
(06:35):
put those back in, if they didn't account for the siblings,
then Yeah, showed that there is a little bit of
evidence a small basic relationship between you know, senomenaphin and
developing autism. But once you start accounting for some of
these these really tough to account for variables, then you
(06:55):
start to see that that falls apart, and that implies
that most of these other studies are not causal but
correlative relationships.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
The sort of twenty twenty five update is and I
think this might have I think as that we learn
more about it, this might have been something that was
either solicited or developed in tandem with RFK and his goals.
But there was a publication in twenty twenty five by
I think the Harvard Dean of Medicine, who has been
a plaintiff's witness for attorneys battling talentol in developing autism.
(07:28):
So there is a bit of a financial conflict of
interest there, right, Yeah. Baccarelli, Yeah, doctor Baccarelli, who published
a study called a Navigation Review, and it's basically a
science y version of let me tell a story, and
here's the evidence that supports it. Basically, what they did
is they took the number of studies, they counted the
number that pointed towards talinol as a factor, and they
(07:50):
counted against it, and they found about twenty something in total.
The majority of them found a link to talent al
and autism, and then a minority found no link. But
of course that's not really how we do science. In
twenty twenty five, if we had two studies and you
can actually look at his studies, and some of these
studies are two hundred people, three hundred people, five hundred people,
(08:12):
and then you have this other study that's two point
five million people. You know, in the real world that
larger study would dwarf the significance of the other ones.
But in the way that this navigation study was set up,
they're all kind of equal. In fact, he treats the
non confounded sample that Cave was mentioning as its own study,
(08:32):
and then he treats the controlled sample with siblings as
its own studies. So the same study from Sweden was
cited twice, one four and one against. You can see
how you could shape a narrative, which is what a
narrative review is. It's when you shape a narrative. It's
not a very sciencey way to do things. We like
to do systematic reviews, and this did provide a bit
(08:55):
of cover because now everyone in AHHS can point to words.
This study by the Harvard Deed of Medicine, published in
BMC Environmental Study is peer reviewed showing that a navigational
study shows that there could be a link. But it
really if you read the study, any scientists reading it like, yeah,
there could be a link, but the largest study in
(09:16):
that group suggests there is no link.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Right, yeah, in terms of someone's playing games with evidence
when they've already decided what they completly would it be. Yeah,
let's talk about this fascination with autism that exists in
the MAHA. Right, make America healthy again. For those who
are not familiar what's happening here, people are probably diagnosed
with autism at a higher rate now than they were
(09:39):
when these people were young. Right, that is not however, well,
I will let you guys explain that. Explain how that
doesn't mean that we're giving children autism If that is
my understanding is.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
Correct, sure, I mean I'll jump in first. So there's
a number of ways to test whether or not the
rate is truly increasing. So the first thing to say is,
over the world, I've seen a gradual increase in the
global population that has autism from about zero point eight
percent of the population to about two percent of the population.
(10:10):
That's what's happened over the past twenty five years of
studies across the world. Now, that's not exactly the exponential
rise that you often hear about in the United States.
The United States has a lot of unique features though.
You have a ton of people working in this area,
you have a ton of researchers, lots of people have
access to healthcare. There's many reasons why global numbers might
not look like American numbers, but the general idea behind
(10:32):
this increase rate of autism. Most of that increase is
due to our change in diagnostics in the way that
we label things. So when RFK was a kid, there
were kids that were excluded from school because they were
literally called retarded. They were not allowed to come to school.
They were known as spass and goofs, and they were
the ones that were made fun of and they struggled
throughout life. Now that were they called autistic, No, did
(10:55):
they have the same symptoms that the kids today that
are being diagnosed with autism have And the way that
we can control for that or there's some really elegant studies.
One is we take diagnostic criteria from children and then
we ask adults currently living today to go through a
structured interview looking for those things. And yes, what we
find the same rate in adults that we see in kids.
(11:18):
This idea that it's an exponential rate. Now, I think
the rate is also increasing, but I think it's increasing gradually,
and this is because the extreme of ages are having
kids more often, especially at the older end. And we
do know that older age is related to autism, especially
older age of the father. And we also know that
premature babies and babies with significant developmental disabilities are surviving
(11:42):
their post natal period as soon as they're born. Instead
of instantly dying or dying during childbirth or not being
able to be resuscitated, they're kept alive and survive and
this is good. But this does mean that there's more
neurodiversity in the world because of course these children have
encountered significant harm.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
And I agree with that. I do think that the
diagnostic criteria has expanded and that's part of why we
see more. But yeah, I think the two things we
know that are related are some genetic predisposition. If there's
people in the family that have it, and the older
age of patients, and as we get older. I'm an
older father myself. You know, you see more with older patients,
(12:23):
and that's more common now than it's ever been before.
So these are all a part of it. And once
you take a look, for example, going back to that
Swedish study in twenty twenty four that was so good,
that sibling study, looks at the genetics of it, And
once you count for the genetics of it, you start
to be able to say, Okay, maybe that's other stuff
like tile mall isn't important? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, is there a gender element to this as well? Yeah,
I may have misfremenbed here. My understanding is that women
FEN people tended to be diagnosed at a lower rate
until relatively recently.
Speaker 3 (12:55):
Yeah, So not only is there a gender component, but
I do think that the bio logical sex of the
child has an impact on the genetic expression, because it
seems like the transmission to males is higher than the
transmission to females. So there might be something buffering about
that extra X chromosome. You know, we have this shrimpy
little Y chromosome that makes us all degenerates. You only
(13:16):
have one Y chromosome, Sorry, are you a super male?
Speaker 4 (13:21):
I have two wys caves y Why you know, Harry,
My ears are so there are a number of disorders
that the extra X chromosome is protective for, and I
do wonder if that's the case for autism.
Speaker 3 (13:33):
But what's also true is we have stereotypes about what
girls should be and what boys should be, and that
leads to boys being diagnosed with autism more frequently than girls.
So the girl that's quiet and awkward and anxious is
labeled as an anxious kid a lot more quickly than
when you see that in a boy that the parents
think autism or the clinician thinks autism. So there could
(13:55):
be some social reasons for that discrepancy as well. And
then the last thing I really wanted to say is
that the really tragic thing about all of this is
profound autism, which autism is the spectrum. Profound autism is
extremely disabling for people around the person. Generally, autistic people
enjoy their lives, especially if the world is set up
(14:15):
in a way so that they can live safely and
without impediment. Autistic people are perfectly content to be autistic,
and this whole idea of autism being this travesty, this epidemic,
this blight on society, is really doing a disservice to
the wide variety of people that we're now calling autistic,
because when our criteria expanded, we created a whole space
(14:38):
of autistic people who are very what we would call
non profound autism. These are people that have difficulties in
social communication or do the same thing over and over
despite it being at an abnormal level, but it's what
they need to soothe themselves, you know, that will be
called autism.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Now.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Now, would a parent want a child who's in a
home constant rocking back and forth and just soothing themselves
by licking their fingers or whatever, you know, some very
severe autistic behavior. No, that probably wouldn't be the parents ideal.
But I've worked with so much autism in my life.
I'm a child anadists and psychiatrist. They've seen so many
artistic kids. They can live happy, happy, happy lives autistic,
(15:20):
So I'm not a fan of the blight sort of
messaging of it either.
Speaker 1 (15:23):
Yeah, I'm really glad you mentioned that, because that's one
of the worst things about in a sense, one of
the most damaging things about is where people who are
living happy, healthy and fulfilled lives are being like slandered
or pathologized to rided by the government of this country.
And that's fucked yeah, and I'm sure will have an
impact on those people because it would have an impact
(15:44):
on anyone to see this condition that, as you said, right, like,
maybe difficult for people who are not familiar with it
to navigate, but it doesn't mean that you can't have
a fulfilling and happy and very pleasant life. Suddenly suggested
it some kind of massively disabling and terror travesty and
that the person who gave birth to you is to
blame for this, right.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
Right, That's what really bothers me, is like we're always
trying to find ways to blame mothers. This is this
is this is a mantle and I apologize for that. Listener,
please don't at me for that. But part of what
this is is like control over women. And you know,
while that Swedish study of mention may not completely close
(16:26):
the issue, I think it's pretty clear that the evidence
pretty strong against there being a connection between taal Mual
and to make a whole sale governmental recommendation that as
a country, for us to move this way, to make
such strong claims, to have a president come out and
just say grit your teeth and bear it. To women
(16:47):
in regards to the one medicine that we've told them
they can use during a pregnancy is insane to me.
So there's the autism issue and the insult essentially to
that community, but also to women in general. It's insane
to me that this is happening right now. Again, there
is a bit of nuance to this issue. As I mentioned,
it's not like totally insane to ask about and question it,
(17:09):
but to make a wholesale directional change in how we
recommend managing patients with our pregnant is is nuts. It's
just nuts.
Speaker 3 (17:20):
Yeah, And to piggyback on that, you know, like it's
really normal. It was normal advice in twenty twenty four
for us to say, yeah, you can use talan all,
but try to use it sparingly. We're not really sure
use it when you need it though, because we do
know that pain and fever and these types of things
are bad for the baby, right, you know, So this
kind of way in which it's now been massaged, So
(17:41):
I saw a letter from doctor Marty Mackeriy, who's another
grifter who's now in the American political system. There has
written a letter basically saying at the bottom, use it judiciously,
and it is the only one that's proved so. But
that's exactly where we were before. There was no need
for a past conference every doctor saying, use talanol sparingly,
(18:01):
but you can use it.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
James, Can I tell you what's driving me crazy about this? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Please?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
This administration has done something. Trump in general has done
something that has blown my mind, which is somehow, time
and time again, I find myself defending people and things
that I would never want to defend. Like, first of
on watching Jimmy Kimmel, I don't know how that happened. Yes,
(18:27):
I blame Trump for that. Second, like tylanol is a
dangerous medication. I'm a liver doc. Yes, ideal, Like tylanol
overdose is causing acute liver injury and acute liver failure
is a massive, real issue across the world, and it is.
It's it's a real thing. So there are reasons that
(18:49):
we should be watchful of tailanol, but this is not
one of them. Right.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, personally, I'm a champion of all tailanol should be
like the UK, it should be in individually wrapped pieces
because there is evidence that that reduces the rate of
intentional overdose and even icy overdoses that cause liver failure.
So yeah, take away freedoms.
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Yeah right, this is the medical freedom crowd. It's amazing.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
Yeah, we should take an advertising break and then come back.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
So we'll do that. Oh god, that would be fantastic
if I could take an advertise. I could use an
ad right now.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
So badyup. It's going to be for fucking lemon pepper water,
which is the only pain treatment you should be taking.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
Bark to put between your teeth.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
Sure, yea, go get some leaves and fucking eat them.
What can get wrong? All right, we're back. Thank you
for that message from Leaf Pain Relief.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
Get the spot, it's good.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
Don't eat leaves. I saw someone posing with a they
were taking their graduation pitch. Is very nice setting. I'm
not going to say the flour, I guess just in case.
You know, you can call it quite remarkable hallucinations and
it is not a good idea to be like.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
Half in it.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Yeah, it's a nice looking flower. You didn't know you
might have.
Speaker 2 (20:08):
Well, now I want to know what the hell you're
talking about. You're gonna tell me later. I'm assuming you
lived in California your whole life. How do you not
know this? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (20:14):
It text you afterwards?
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Them dandelions? Is it dandelions?
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I've been told not to roses.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
It reminds me though there was a TikTok video of
there's been a few of women proudly being pregnant and
ingesting talanol. And to be clear, that's an insane response
to this problem, Like, please don't take talanol as a point,
as k was saying before the break, right, Helenol does
deplete the glutathion in your body, and it is toxic
to your liver. If you're a deliver, doesn't have the
(20:41):
glue to thion necessary, it directly injures the liver. And
this is what happens when you take an overdose, is
it overwhelms the amount of gluteothion that your liver has
and it causes liver damage.
Speaker 2 (20:52):
So in most pregnant women who want to keep the
baby are very judicious to begin with, not just like
downing shit. Willy nilly, you know what I mean? Like
they're like, oh god, this is really bad. I bear
take something and talent all, by the way, sucks, you know,
as a pain medicine. You know it's not gonna It's
(21:12):
like the thing you take when they won't give you
anything else that's not a great one. So to take
it from them without a good reason, without a proposed mechanism.
If you're gonna make extraordinary claims, you have to have,
if not extraordinary evidence por ponderance of it. So this
is really bothering me, as you can tell, because it
does not exist.
Speaker 1 (21:33):
Yeah. I think something you mentioned earlier, like when like
you said, you're back to to a corner where you're
defending like a big farmer and tynel specifically, is the
one thing that they've tried to do is like inhabit
nuance and then disingenuously use it absolutely.
Speaker 3 (21:49):
Yes, yes, that's the entire anti vaccines.
Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah, yeah, right, and then it leads to people responding
in a way that it raises nuance entirely. I understand
where we get that response, but like it's not the
correct response, right, Yeah. People want you to be like
this is one hundred percent safe, right. They want you
to say this is actually the perfect medication and it's
fine and you should have it for breakfast.
Speaker 3 (22:11):
Yeah, And the AHHS tweeted out statement that Talanol did
in twenty seventeen basically saying, we don't recommend talent all
and pregnancy. But no drug maker recommends any medication. They
all say, specifically, talk to your doctor about this medication.
They're not allowed to recommend the medication. Only doctors can't.
So when they're using that language and then HHS tweets
(22:33):
it out, HHS is tweeting it out specifically to give
the illusion that we don't want pregnant people to be
taking this medication. They specifically said we don't recommend it,
and that's a nuance and that's how they use it.
And it just sucks.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
Right, that's exactly right, and title mall the makers of it.
By the way, I am curious about the fact that
Johnson Johnson spun Off can view. I wonder if they
knew this was coming and that's why they did it
the same way that DuPont spun Off.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
It was only three years ago that they did that,
you know, more.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
Like DuPont spun Off, the company in charge of all
their pfasts they're forever chemicals because they knew shit was
coming down the pipeline. I wonder if that was the
same reason here Title Law did this.
Speaker 3 (23:09):
They put band aid and nutrigena in the same group,
so I think it was more just to consolidate home stuff.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
Interesting. Yeah, got a.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
Press conference coming next week about band aid.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
It's can sick cause anxiety. Anyways, It's very interesting to
me that this is happening at all. Really. I mean,
what I thought was interesting about the press conference, and
I wonder if you guys picked up on this too,
was you know, I was wondering, why is this pivot happening?
How can RFK Junior be happy about this? He can't
(23:41):
be happy about leaving his crusade against vaccine. The Mohawk
community behind him clearly doesn't love that aspect, and I
wonder why they were pivoting to that, And I wonder
what you guys think about that. I did feel that
during that press conference, Trump really went out of his
way to sort of give lip service we should we
should talk about this too, about vaccines. He talked about
(24:03):
vaccines a lot, even though there's no new evidence about
vaccines causing problems, and Trump gave this terrible advice about
breaking up the vaccines, which we know is a terrible
idea because that's going to lead to decrease uptake overall,
the more visits you have to go back to, the
less likely you're going to do it, so the more
likely you're not going to be vaccinated. But it made
me wonder why this is happening now, why they decided
(24:24):
to make this pivot, and I wonder what you both
think about that.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
My theory is the link with fevers. If I'm being
really conspiratorial, I would say that they're going to try
and link vaccine induced fever to autism, and they're going
to say, oh, we thought it was the tile and all,
but it turns out to be the vaccines.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
It's the fever, and the fever is caused by the
vaccine gines. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, My theory is gender. I think that telling pregnant
people to suck it up is then you've got you know,
you're dude still standing on the podium there, right, You're
pregnant people are going to be women. It's something that
men have been doing to women for millennia. Like it's
a safer bet than yeah, your kid might die, but
you know, you never know.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, yeah, which actually is you know. That brings up
another thing that I think we should talk about, which
is what Trump kept saying. Trump kept saying, don't take it,
but he was like, what's the worst that happens? Nothing
bad will come of it. So it invokes this precautionary principle,
which is like, you know, why not avoid the talent all,
what's the worst that can happen? And that doesn't work here. No,
(25:33):
because we know that people are taking this for a fever.
Tal Law is not good for inflammation, doesn't work on
inflammation the way advilbbiprofene does it. But it can work
on a fever. And we know that fever can have
some risk at least as much, if not more than
tilentol in harm to the baby, in harm to the pregnancy.
(25:54):
So to me, the precautionary principle just doesn't apply here.
And to hear the president, I never heard a president
give medical advice before like that. It blew my mind.
I felt like I was disassociating while I was watching this.
I'm like, this cannot be realized. He said it so unequivocally,
don't take talentol.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Just it up. And I tweeted something that I read
from doctor Glockenplocken, who's one of my favorite medical comedians.
But he said this will kill people, and I do agree.
I think people were very incredulous when I when I
said this will kill people, and they were like, what
do you mean people dying of a fever. I'm like, yeah,
kind of like fevers can be really bad for you.
(26:32):
And if you're not going to hospital and the only
thing you have is talentol, it's a really good idea
to take the talent ol. And there's some people that
don't go to hospital for lots of reasons, and fevers
can kill you. They just can.
Speaker 4 (26:42):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
So I disapprove of the Canadian and englishmen referring to
the hospital as hospital. They need you guys to refer
to it as of the hospital.
Speaker 1 (26:51):
Forgotten about that? Yeah, always for the definite article.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
Yeah, taking it to a hospital, Thank you guys.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
But yeah, I think you're right like that. There is
no like no harm option here, right, like that is
a damage is done when people don't take this, right.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I just imagine this this poor mom you know at home,
you know doesn't have great healthcare, but does have a
bottle of talentol and is battling a sorry, I'll americanize
this like one hundred and four degree fever.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Thank you don't make me do mad?
Speaker 3 (27:18):
Yeah, you're to make me do mad, you know. And
and you know, it's it's around that one hundred and
three hundred and four mark where we actually get really
worried about the person's brain. We get really worried about
their health and what's going to happen, and what would
happen to that person in hospital? They would absolutely get
talent al right away, prescribed by a doctor right that moment.
And so I worry about this. I worry about this
(27:39):
mom presenting a hospital with her fever. She's pregnant, and
the doctors say, okay, we're going to give you talinol,
and she says, no, you're right, what because I don't
want I don't want my child to have autism? Because
people are listening to this guy. First of all, again
the hospital. Second, they're going to listen to this guy.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
It's insane.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
People are really going to take this advice. And I
could see, you know, especially the more Trump following people
saying you will never give me talentol, not in this hospital, right,
And so it does sound silly that not taking talentol
could kill you. But if you're so scared of talentol
because it causes autism that you don't take it when
it's recommended to you by a doctor, where it's prescribed
(28:18):
to you by doctor, you could die. And I won't
be surprised when there are more fever induced deaths in
twenty twenty five and twenty twenty six in the United States.
I already have the CDC Wonder Data search ready to
go because I study mortality all the time, and I
am absolutely sure we're going to see a few more
fever induced deaths than we would have previously.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Geez, yeah, maybe like we can finish up by explaining
to people like, you know, if you're talking to someone
in your family, right, someone who maybe isn't a listener
(29:00):
to either of our podcasts. I know this isn't directly
the area either of you specializing, but from what I understand,
pregnant people like the way that drugs are categorized, as
we spoke about earlier on. There's not like, yeah, go
ahead and take all of these, right, there's like probably
fine if you have to, probably a bad idea unless
you really need to, and like maybe some straight up don't. Yeah,
(29:24):
can you explain that for people?
Speaker 3 (29:25):
Sure, So there's a classification system and it's technical, but
it's exactly like that. There are very few medications that
are like totally fine. These are medications that are given
during pregnancy that have been well studied in pregnancy. But
for the most part, pretty much everything else in my
world of psychiatry, you know, SSRIs and antipsychotics and benzodiazepines
(29:47):
and whatnot, they all have the same classification, which is
basically contraindicated, don't take it unless your doctor persudes it
for you. Now, we still get pregnant people with depression
and psychosis and who need all these medications, and so
we do have to interpret it based off of the
data that we have, and the data that we have
(30:07):
always comes late, so if we find a problem, it's
found too late, and generally it's precautionary. So typically I
don't know cave if there's a similar thing in GI work,
But like for me, I'll get a call all the time. Well,
we have this woman, she's thirty two, she's really worried.
She normally takes antidepressants, but she's thinking about stopping them
because she's really worried about passing into her baby or whatever.
(30:30):
And I'm like, how bad is the depression. Well, it
was really bad. She was hospitalized three times and nearly died.
I was like, probably want to keep antidepressant treatment going
and just let her know that there could be some
harm to the fetus. But depression is way worse. And
if we just go with God, you know, do your best.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
There are certain medications where we are going to say
you absolute should take these during pregnancy. Yeah, and you
should discuss that with your obstrician, to talk that over
with yourcologist and your your primary care doctor. You should
talk it over with your medical team. That's great, But
every medication has some small amount of risk, some larger
(31:09):
than others. But it's really about the risk versus the benefit.
And this has been well studied by the experts, and
what you've heard, what those people have heard from Trump
and RFK Junior is well outside of the normal recommendations
from the experts like the ACOG, the American College of Obstetricians,
(31:31):
and kindecologists, the people who have been keeping our pregnant
patients alive and relatively well for many many years. This
is well outside of those recommendations. And while it's an
interesting topic and I think, maybe, you know, sure, i'd
like to see more studies on it, I'm never going
to say don't study this more. I would say that
(31:52):
the preponderance of evidence and scientific belief and medical belief
in this one goes against what they're saying. And I
would say, least talk it over with your doctor. If
you have a question, talk it over with your doctor.
And that's you mentioned it before. Town law has sort
of like, you know, try to hedge its bets by saying,
talk it over with your doctor. But the reason they
(32:13):
do that is they know most doctors are going to
be reasonable about this and follow the scientific evidence that's there.
So I would say if they really have a question,
they should talk about with their doctor. Because Trump, whether
or not they love him or not, this is well
out of his range of understanding, and he is getting
It's like a game of telephone. He's getting a version
(32:34):
of the medical information transmit to him by RFK Junior,
who is getting a weird version of it from his
belief system, and it's being supported by people who are
there solely just just there to do the beck and
call of Trump at this point, and that's super dangerous.
And so if they can keep an open mind about it,
(32:56):
talk it over with their doctor, continues to do what
their parents did, I think they're going to be okay.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Yeah, real quick, because like for reasons that are life
you related to the way that we do healthcare in
the United States, people sometimes are retident to talk to
their doctor, unable to talk to a doctor. Reliable sources
of medical information versus the shit that you find on Google.
Give us like a five minute primer.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (33:19):
So you know, in almost every jurisdiction there is an
official health agency that you can go to their website
and get good health data. So in BC, we have
Health Length BC and there's a number that you can
call to speak to a nurse. In America, you have
great I would say it used to be great. Like
Cleveland Clinic used to be really great, but they got
a little hokey. I would still say, you know, there
(33:41):
are some really good American places that you can go.
Male Clinic has a lot of public facing information that
has pretty good general descriptions, but just make sure it's
from a place that is official because there is a
whole space now that's going to be opened up because
the second part of this present that RFK gave was
(34:01):
about a generic medication that might help some people with
a very specific form of autism. And I promise you
the amount of huckstering that's going to happen based on that.
The alternatives. You know, we made a joke about lemon
water before the ad break, but there are going to
be people who are going to be selling the alternative
titalinol that is autism free, and that's really worrisome.
Speaker 2 (34:24):
Yeah, be wary of anyone that has something in their Instagram,
their talk, their wellness post that uses the words detox.
Be wary about ancient remedies. Be wary about anyone that
is selling something like doctor Oz, who, by the way,
(34:45):
sells a version of the full linic acid or the
leucovorin that they're talking about here, So be wary about that.
We don't sell shit. Be wary about people like doctor Baccarelli,
the dean of Harvard Epidemiology, who, by the way, I've
heard is a doctor from the friends I have in Harvard,
they say he's not a bad guy. But be worry
(35:05):
about the fact anytime you see someone's making one hundred
and fifty thousand dollars off of court trial to sue
tail and all and has a vested interest in these things,
so you should be worry about those things. That's definitely
something to look for in if you're looking for trusted source.
Speaking of hucksters, you could listen to my podcast The
House of Pod anywhere you find podcasts where we're going
(35:27):
to talk about medical stuff just like this, and I
will bring you trusted sources.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Beautiful. That's that was all a long play to get
to listen to Kave's podcast.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
I'm in it for the long con. I'm in it
for the long con, buddy.
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Yeah, thank you for helping us clear that up a bit.
I think it's it's a real rough time for healthcare
in general, and especially people with autism, like like well
nero divergent people. It really fucking sucks to see the
entire federal government bad mouthing people. So, yeah, we are
thinking of.
Speaker 3 (35:57):
You, very similar to the issue with trans kids. Like
I'm a Canadian, you know, and we have right next
door to my province, Alberta, which is very much taking
the route of Florida and other things with respect to
trans policies, and it's just got to suck to be
a trans kid in Florida right now. It's got to
suck to be a trans kid anywhere in America right now,
(36:18):
knowing what's coming down the pipeline. And it'll be the
same for people with autism and families with autistic kids.
Speaker 2 (36:24):
Yeah, yep. I could conservatively complain about this for another
three hours.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
We didn't even talk about hepatitis B. By the way,
we even talk about hepatities. People can talk about this
on the point. There's just so much. There's so much,
and it's so terrible, and you're absolutely right, it's really
like for that community right now.
Speaker 3 (36:43):
By the way, I wanted to debunk something because it's
been said multiple times.
Speaker 1 (36:47):
Yeah, yeah, I get it.
Speaker 3 (36:48):
RFK and a whole bunch of people have said, I
didn't know anybody autistic when I was you know, when
I was a kid or whatever. I've never met someone
autistic my age. Donald Triplett was the very first person
diagnosed with autism in nineteen forty three, I believe nineteen
forty three. He just died last year. I think he
was something like eighty ninety years old. Okay, autistic people
(37:13):
are old too. This idea that there aren't old autistic
people is so asked backwards. It was just not diagnosed. Yes,
And it's such a shame because when Donald Triplett passed,
you know, like people in psychiatry notes, that's not the
type of thing that people in the world noticed. But
he was the very first autistic person. He lived a
(37:35):
full life, he was an engineer. He had autism, it
was diagnosed. He was the first ever case diagnosed, and
he also lived a life. And so for rfk to
just erase him completely and say I've never known an
old person to have autism is just ridiculous.
Speaker 1 (37:51):
Yeah, and if you conduct yourself as Rskade does, but
being a piece of shit to neurodivergent people, then even
people who have been diagnosed, I'm just going to be like, hey,
and yeah, I wanted to talk to you about more
about life because you're being a turn to them and
like you're being unkind, Yeah, like what do you expect?
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, Tyler Brandon is like how old
is she now? Like in her seventies. I mean, it's
it's absurd to think that this is a totally new thing.
I mean, it also tells me that he was probably
a bit sheltered and it probably didn't mean enough people.
Speaker 3 (38:26):
Wow Kennedy sheltered?
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Well yeah, yeah, he's had a different experience of life
than any of us. It's fair to say.
Speaker 3 (38:33):
I got through the whole podcast without making a toddler
and all pun. I'm very proud of that. I usually
do pretty much every time, and it kisses my wife
off so much.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
I'm really proud of you.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
Man.
Speaker 2 (38:43):
You showed a lot of growth.
Speaker 1 (38:44):
Yeah, yeah, that's great. I was gonna make one, but
I didn't want to want to offend. Yeah, thank you
very much. Where can people find both of you on
the internet if they'd like to, oh, you know, in person?
Speaker 2 (38:58):
Don't find me? Yeah, I give that as You can
listen to my podcast, The House of Pod. Anywhere you
listen to podcasts, you'll hear people like James, you'll hear
people like Tyler. Last time Tyler was on was actually
for episode two eighty four. We did an episode on
Adult ADHD with author Rex King. She's rad So that's
a good episode to listen to. And you can find
(39:21):
me on Blue Sky at CAVEMD. I still have a
Twitter account and Instagram account, but I don't really use
those that much. So find me on Blue Sky Blue Sky,
by the way as a shout out, as a plug.
I think it's good for science if you're interested in
science based stuff. It may not be that much fun
for everything else, but at least in terms of like
if you want to follow doctors scientists, that's a good
(39:42):
place to go. That's that's where a lot of us
have gone. So I'll be there at Blue Sky.
Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah, and I'm I am still on Twitter Tyler Black
thirty two. I'm slugging it out. It is a lot
of hate and a lot of death threats now, especially
as I've I've been on a few trans podcasts, I've
been on quite a few medical anti vacs and vaccine podcasts,
So you know, I'll pop up from time to time
on a podcast or something, but I'm not really have
(40:08):
anything to plug anymore. I'm just really hoping that we
can continue to fight this sort of It's a really
disgusting reality in this decade that misinformation has won the
day and literally misinformers are the political leaders now, and
misinformation has just eroded science to the point where I
(40:28):
don't know if America is ever going to get it back.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
Yeah, if we do, this has set us back many years.
This has set us back many many years. Yeah, it's
pretty bleak.
Speaker 3 (40:38):
Well that was fun.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
De's send on that hopeful note. Yeah, all right, it.
Speaker 5 (40:47):
Could happen Here is a production or Cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from Cool Zone Media, visit our website
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It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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