February 28, 2024 • 44 mins
Shereen is joined by chef Reem Assil and filmmaker Jibrael Younes to discuss the importance of persevering Palestinian cuisine amidst an ethnic cleansing, utilizing food as resistance, and celebrating Palestinian joy and culture.
Reem Assil:
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instagram.com/reem.assil
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Alzoon Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello everybody, This is Sharen. Welcome to it could happen
here today. We're talking to two people I love and
respect very much about a topic that I think is
really underreported on, and that's food erasure and how it's
part of ethic cleansing. And I think it's a really
important topic to talk about right now, especially with the
genocide happening in Palestine. So let's just jump right in
(00:29):
without further ado. Welcome my guests, Reeve and Jabidil.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Hello, Hello, Hello, Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Just so our audience can get to know you guys
a little bit better, how about y'all introduce yourselves and
like what you do and yeah, yeah, Ream you want
to go first?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
My name is Reem.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
I am a Bay Area based Palestinian Syria and chef.
I own a restaurant called Reems, California. And our mission
really is too who built community across cultures and experiences
through the warmth of Arab bread and hospitality.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Beautiful. Wow, that was so succinct. My name is thank
you for a Saesday, So.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I've done it a few times, you know.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Yeah. My name is Jabrell Unis. I'm a filmmaker based
in Pasadena, and I am also a Palestinian artist in general.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, no relation. Both of our last names are Unis,
but that is how we met. A white person said,
you guys have the same last name, you should meet,
and we met. No, we're friends, But I really like
the partnership that you guys have in the collaboration that
you guys, from my perspective, have established. Can you guys
talk about what you've been working on recently together?
Speaker 5 (01:47):
Yeah? Yeah, So we've been working on for the past
since like twenty twenty one or late twenty twenty. We've
been working on a documentary series that is named after
reim cookbook, which is you should pick it up. It's
one of my favorite cookbooks that I own. It's called
Arabia and it is a documenting series exploring the food
(02:10):
ways and diaspora of Arab people across South past Asia,
North Africa. And I think the general log line and
dream can dive into a bit more of the general
log line is you can tell this like through telling
the story of the food, you can tell the story
of our people in diaspora. And it underscores a lot
of I think we'll talk about today, which is sort
(02:31):
of food, identity, identity through food and resilience and through food.
But also I think one thing that's always been really
important to both of us is how much we see
the show as like a celebration of our culture. I
feel like there are so many trauma stories from not
only Palestinians but Arabs in general, and I think something
(02:53):
that was really important to us is like, guess, let's
talk about all of it. We're an extremely I think
you know, we're extremely politicize as a people, but also
very passionate, but also let's celebrate all the things we
love about ourselves and love about our culture and the
tastes and smells and sounds and sights. So how would
you I feel like that's sort of the setup, but
(03:14):
how would you describe it?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And our hope is
that the being able to break down the barriers or
have a lens into our world for the public is
kind of a gateway to understand the context and the
politics behind why things are the way they are and
(03:41):
to really fight the dehumanization that Arabs have experienced, particularly.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
In the West.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
And so, you know, while this is a show about food,
it's also it's very much a show about people and
how interconnected we are. So yeah, we're really excited to
be able to break down some of those barriers of
understanding in a way that could actually lead to people,
(04:08):
you know, fighting anti Arab sentiment in this country, fighting Islamophobia,
all of these things when they have that kind of
lens or that view into our world.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Yeah, and I mean it's been pretty interesting. Can I
keep vamping a little bit? It's been pretty interesting. I
mean I think the sort of like thought that started
the show really was why it's so easy? And I
think we'll talk about this later too in depth, but like,
why is it so easy to find so many different
(04:39):
cultures food? You know, like you have I'm going to
use Asian food as an example because I live in
the San Gabriel Valley, so it's like all around me.
But you have Korean food and Japanese food, and so
many different types of Chinese food that are all specifically
called what they are and where they're from, right, They're
all like identified correctly. That can extend to the Latin
(05:02):
X world and their food. It can extend to European food.
It's all very you know, like people call it what
it is, and then you sort of get to you
get to you know, Southwest Asia and North Africa, and
suddenly the food stops being called you know, what it is,
and starts being called Mediterranean or starts being called Middle Eastern.
(05:26):
And I think that the idea was, like I had
gone to Anaheim, where there's a neighborhood called Little Arabia here,
and there was a Palestinian restaurant. I was like so
excited about it. It's called the Olive Tree. It's closed now,
but I was like so so excited, and I got
I always get so so excited when I find a
Palestinian restaurant or a yeah, any restaurant, and you know,
(05:51):
I mean many of them. But I think the reason
I get so excited is because it's so hard to
find those places, and I think there's a reason why.
And so, you know, three and a half years later,
the show has sort of grown from that initial thought
and interest and become very very different, and it's effort
(06:12):
to humanize Arabs, which is something I think is you know,
it's unfortunate that we still have to do that, but
I think we kind of do, especially right now. But yeah,
we've been pitching for like, you know, we worked on
it together for a while and then of been pitching
and going through pitches and talking at different companies and
getting a lot of great feedback and getting some really
weird feedback for the past like few years. And we
(06:34):
can talk about that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
More if you want, But well, oh, I'd like to
talk about some of the more interesting feedback, I guess,
but I would also want to ask you ream how
how did you get involved in food? Like where did
that passion start?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah, I've I.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Would say food has always been in the backdrop for
better or for worse of my life experiences, particularly when
everything falls apart from me. I grew up kind of
as a whatever. The term I've heard is like the
third culture kid, right where the Arab identity was really
(07:16):
strong in our household and that was particularly through food,
but then also and a stranger in a strange land
outside of the home where it was predominantly your typical
Americana suburban culture. And so I was kind of like,
even though food was there, the intertwining with identity made
(07:41):
me like run away from it a lot because it
reminds you of your otherness and also just the nuances
of seeing my mom being a working mom and struggling
in the kitchen. So I was like, I'm never gonna
I'm going to be a feminist and I'm never.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Gonna touch her. That was like.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Every time, like you know, and then I did like
what the immigrant child does, like overachiever, like go to college,
try to be the president, and then realize us of
what I want to do. When I spent many years
in the nonprofit world, I was doing organizing work, and
while that work was really rewarding to some extent, it
was really draining and not fulfilling in a deeper spiritual level.
(08:24):
And so every time I would burn out, the food,
and particularly the food of my culture would come back
in some shape or form. So I just had this
kind of moment in twenty ten where I was in
another bout of burnout and depression and really questioning everything.
And it was a trip that I took to the
Arab world with my father and seeing particularly bred in
(08:45):
these straight corner bakeries be the anchor for this community
that I had, you know, as a kid of diaspora,
like really longing to feel connected to and it was
through the food that I like felt connected once again,
So my mom did something right, look of her the
credit for that, But I was like, I need to
(09:08):
explore this more. I need to understand what is this?
And so then food became a source of healing for
me to come back to my identity and come back
to my culture. But then also just the power of
food as a community builder that like transcends all cultures,
Like I really loved that as a community organizer who
had been working with other communities who struggled just like
(09:30):
my own, right, So that's kind of how I got
into food by way of my love for wanting to
belong and my love for connection of community, and then
slowly became obsessed with food itself.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I mean, who doesn't love food?
Speaker 4 (09:46):
But it is a place of both trauma and healing
for me, So it became kind of a way to
transcend that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
No, I think it's a great thing to bring up
how it's a trauma and very healing as well. I
to kind of talk about like the feedback. I know
you've had a restaurant in the Bay Area for a while.
Was it similar when you tried to make the show
come together? Like did you have similar barriers and feedback?
Like were you like familiar with some of the things
that people were saying, or was it completely like a
(10:17):
new game.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
So the context that I started my restaurant, and I
want to say it was probably much different than even
what it is now today, although certainly there is backlash.
But I would say I was one of the first
few chefs who were saying, nope, I want my food
to be called Arab, and I really wanted to counter
(10:40):
these kind of watered down labels of Middle Eastern or
Mediterranean or you know, levantine. To me, those were all
colonial terms and it was like a bad word to
say Arab, and I wanted to reclaim that identity. I
was like, if I'm going to come out, I want
to come out as my whole self and not this person,
this scared person that was stifled all my life. And
(11:00):
I understand why the immigrants before me came, you know,
did it that way because they needed to make a living,
and you know, there was a lot of anti Arab sentiment,
especially in the wake of nine to eleven, that that
kind of climate here, and so I had this like
lovely idea that I'm like this generation where I can
like break it down and make it cool. I'm like,
(11:22):
I'm going to mainstream it, you know, And I got
pushback actually from my own family because they had those fears.
They were like, just you know, start like, don't even
start with like a Zacta event with shit, nobody's gonna
now it's like the hot thing.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
But so that was a context in which I was
opening my.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Business and nobody had done it really before, so I
could kind of create my own rules and people.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Are like, what is this?
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And I still got like a lot of like, oh
is this you know Mediterranean? You know people, it took
a while to train people to say Arab and then
put the layer of Palestinian identity, you know, my Palestinian
identity at the time that I was opening my restaurant
was really important. It was you know, I had started
(12:08):
my pop ups on the in the wake of Israel's
second to worst. Now we're seeing the worst of it
incursion on RaSE in twenty fourteen, in which they killed
you know, over three thousand Palestinians in one winter, and
we were devastated by that. We were devastated about the
(12:30):
state of organizing with Palestinians, and I really wanted to
as I opened my restaurant not be scared to talk
about my whole self, and so I, uh so everything
about Reims, even though we're not like pushing our politics
in your face. The very act of being Palestinian was
seen as political, just existing. And we had a mural
(12:51):
of a Palestinian activist who was based in Chicago named
Esmueroda who was deported by the government as a made
an example of to say, if you're Palestinian and you're
outspoken about Palestine, this is what will happen to you.
And I put her on the wall to remind my
community and to remind myself that we don't need to
be scared. And I got a lot of backlash for that,
(13:15):
but I think even in that time, despite the backlash,
the amount of community support, amount of opportunity for people
to learn, was that much greater, and so I ended
up getting a lot more positive attention for my bakery
overall as a result of that.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
How do you have just a few?
Speaker 4 (13:40):
It makes me happy every time I wake up with
a nomination. I'm like, I wonder what the Zionists be thinking.
It gives me a little bit of like hope that
like our success is kind of like what is threatening,
you know, because we are truth We are in the
business of truth telling, and we do it in a
way that's very human, you know, based in our humanity
(14:02):
and our dignity, and that our restaurant was really I
think powerful in that way that a simple art piece
or the simple act of making food and calling it
Palestinian was that threatening to the powers that be, you know, Like.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
That's such an interesting backdrop also to talk about the
feedback we got from the show, because like, I think
Reem's experience was so was so visceral in that way,
and I mean what she described as well, and I
think you can look it up and there have been
articles on Vice and stuff about it where people can
(14:38):
read about her experience and everything that happened. And you know,
I think maybe we undersold your intro a little bit
ram like you're a badass and you know, the James
Beard nooms and a lot of great and awesome press.
But I think what's interesting about the show is with realms,
with realms at the restaurant. You know, it's very specifically
(15:02):
Palestinian and Arab food and the show, while yeah, it's
being made by us who are Palestinian people, it's not
only about Palestine, and that's been something we've sort of
had to overcome. Like the show is about Arabs, and
it's about our foods and food ways, and as much
(15:24):
as the food, you know, the show. As much as
the show focuses on on Palestine, it also focuses on
Egypt and Yemen and where you know, I mean the
Yemeni coffee tradition is like where Arab coffee kind of
came from and started from. And it also focused on
Lebanon and Morocco and Algeria. It's been an interesting Yeah,
(15:45):
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Yeah, I was just to that point, like it's it's
not about I mean, first of all, these these these
states are border right, they're bordered, they're they're colonized states
in some shape or form, and ideas to fight the
tropes of the Arab as one thing, right, Like it's
showing the breadth and depth of our culture that like
(16:06):
we're not Hamat, it's not a monolith, we're not homogeneous.
And even the ethos of Reems kind of is very
similar to that idea that yes we are Palestinian, but
we're also Syrian, we're also Oakland, we're also California, Like
those things don't need to compete with one another. I
hate you know, like you know, my identity kind of
(16:30):
coming on the scene. Yes I'm Arab and yes I'm Palestinian,
but those are political identities. The reason we call our
food Palestinian is to draw attention to the ethnic cleansing.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
And e raisure of our people. That's why we call
it Palestinian. But it's not. There's there are certain foods
that are not inherent.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I mean they're enjoyed all over the Arab world and
they look different, but you can't like the claiming of
ownership of food is yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
We try to.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
I think this show is really trying to fight against
that of the it's called ada Bia, which is kind
of like a tongue in cheek, like what do you
think of with the Arab woman? And it's like, let
me take all of those stereotypes and like turn them
on their head. It's the same thing with like all
of our food ways in our culture. There is no
(17:15):
singular way of what an Arab is. We all have
kind of our unique stories and histories. So when we
choose to call things what they are, there's a context
in a history for that, and that's what we're trying
to share.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
Yeah, exactly, I think.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I mean, I really really relate to the idea of
really wanting to be represented with food. Like when I
find a Syrian restaurant, I freak out. Like there's one
alcohol in southern California where it's like my family and
I go there every weekend when I'm down and when
I'm visiting my parents. It's just like a place where
(17:54):
we feel like the closest we can get to home again.
And I think it's a really important and like reminder
that I don't know, food is food can be really powerful.
And before I keep rambling, I'm going to take our
break and we'll be right back. And we are back, reim.
(18:22):
You mentioned something earlier that I think is worth touching
back on the idea of like existing being already like
a political act. I think that is like it's a
burden for a lot of people of color and a
lot of marginalized communities. And I think hand in hand
with that is the fact that like our food is
also like a political act, like making sure it's couscus
(18:44):
not is really cuscus or whatever it is that we're
trying to fight against How do you see food, and
especially now, I think people underestimate how many levels there
are of ethnic cleansing, because erasing food and appropriating food
is a huge part of that, right, So can I
get your take on that, both of your takes.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
You mean, like beyond appropriating, Yeah, I mean I think
food is a tool of It is weaponized historically against people,
I mean most doubtably obviously with seventy five years of
occupation of Palestine. One of the many ways, besides the dispossession, killing, expulsion,
(19:31):
is to sever us from our food ways. And when
you sever someone from their land that creates the food ways,
you sever them from their culture, from their existence. Then
there's just the most the more immediate way as we're
seeing this genocide unfolds, where you can starve a population
with that, and so food then becomes kind of this
(19:54):
powerful tool to break a people and why we see
people like food become a form of resistance for people.
But even here in our communities, I mean, this is
not unfortunately unique to the Palestinians. You've seen the pillaging
of indigenous folks here in this country, the same things
(20:19):
kind of cutting them off from their food ways, their
means of subsistence, of supporting one another, of you know,
being connected to their culture. And now you're seeing in
communities through economic policy, like food deserts and people not
being able to access their food or have sovereignty over
their food production. So it is absolutely a tool and
(20:43):
something that we talk about at REAMS a lot that
like the fight for Palestine is the fight for food
sovereignty everywhere and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Right, Well, I'm glad you brought up the idea of
or just the fact that like Israel and design is
has like taken Palestinians from their land. And I've talked
about this before on this podcast, but like the olive
tree is a very significant part of Palestinian culture, and
like olive harvesting is a huge part of Palestinian life.
(21:13):
And so when you burn down thousands of olive trees,
or when you kick people out of like thet agriculturally
rich parts of the land, you're denying them so much
more than just olives. It's like very deep. And I
think when people that are not as informed about Palestine
question like why is there a watermelon? Like what's this?
(21:33):
And what's the olive about? And I think that goes
to show how powerful food can be. And just for
those who don't know, the watermelon became an active or
a symbol of resistance because the Palestinia flag was not
allowed to be raised for a while and it has
the same colors as the Palestinian flag, and so that's
just like a really beautiful way that food has become
(21:53):
this like powerful symbol. And so I just I just
trying to know emphasize that a little bit. I guess, Jabill,
what's your take.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean I think that I think just I'll
speak like a little bit more domestically. I feel like
Raem is so eloquent and talking about historic parts of it,
but I mean even here, like domestically in Los Angeles
or California, I think one of the things, and it
kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier.
One of the things that's one of the things that's
difficult is there are so few identifying parts of or
(22:28):
just restaurants in general, like correctly identifying restaurants Syria in
or lebaneses or Palestinian or what have you, and they
hide under these names, which when I'm not going to
name like specific restaurants here, but like which when other
restaurants open and maybe they're owned by an Italian person
(22:49):
or just other people that aren't Arab, and suddenly they're
taking the food and misappropriating it and calling it. Yeah,
I mean, Israeli kuskus are like is rarely salad or
Israeli falaffle or hey, here's all this food and it's
shuarma and it's kebabs and it's menish and we're an
(23:10):
Israeli restaurant. Like these are things that are really difficult
because I think, you know, those things tend to be
unfortunately just like more approachable, saying Mediterranean tends to be
more approachable, and what you get ultimately is a population
of I would say a larger population of non Arab
people that don't really understand what they're eating and they're
(23:31):
not educated on where it comes from. And just the
amount of people you know, anecdotally that I personally have
met who like don't know that this food is Arab
food or don't know like what where the food comes from,
which is so interesting to me because it's not an
experience that I think many other cultures or ethnicities have.
(23:54):
And so yeah, I mean I kind of always joke
that I feel like are really close. Example is if
you know, somebody started, like an American person started making
sushi and they're like, this is American food and it's
just not at the same time. And so I think
that the need to assimilate for generations before Reims and
(24:17):
I I have an empathy for the want of safety
that they were doing and the want to make a
living and the reasons they did it. I think we
kind of alluded to that earlier. But where it's left
us now is a population of Arabs and diaspora that
(24:38):
I think are harmed for it. You know, like we
don't have we don't show up on the census, and
it's all sort of one part. It's all they're all
different parts of the one problem. And I think that
when you take the food and you don't give it
its correct name, and you don't or you give it
the incorrect name, it hurts all of us in ways
(24:58):
that like we can't even imagine, whether it's at work
or in Diversity and Belonging initiative it's not including Swanamina people,
or whether it's just in food ways and not being
included or not being included in the census, which leads
to us not having as much community support around our
people are not knowing medical statistics. I think they're all
(25:22):
they're symptoms of a bigger issue, and I think one
of the ways you combat that issue is through knowledge
and shared learning and shared experience. And I think food
and food ways are one of the main ways that
people experience and learn about other cultures. And I think
if people look at that in their own lives, you
(25:43):
can apply it to any culture of food that you
really love and maybe it's not your own, and you've
learned something about those people through that, you know. I
think the main dishes of any culture, it says a
lot about out where that culture has been, where they
come from, what their history is. And I think people
(26:05):
being able to experience those things and go to a
Mexican restaurant and learn about, you know, a certain dish
and where it comes from or why it's there, or
why it's named something is an experience that allows them
to learn about a culture. And we just don't necessarily
have that here. And then when you add on, you know,
misnomers or incorrect labels, it becomes even more damaging and
(26:28):
also just hurtful and very annoying, Like it's so annoying,
and I like, I don't want to go. I'm sorry,
Like there are restaurants in LA that I like just
don't want to go to. And maybe the chefs are
really nice and they might be allies in some ways
or maybe they're not, but like I would rather give please,
Like I would rather give my money to like an
(26:50):
Arab person making our own food rather than going to
experience it in a different way, you know what I mean,
Like I don't. I don't know, so I think that's
kind of like how I generally feel. And the less
professional answer is I just find it like really annoying.
And I'm like, come on, y'all, there's so many listen, Like,
we're not LA is not New York. We have like
(27:11):
not as many Arab places to go. They're sort of few.
You have to seek them out a little bit more here.
But I'm like, come on, y'all, we're out here. Yeah,
go find go find us, like, go find give your
money to like this Syrian immigrant who moved here and
started this place that everybody loves. And you know, I, yeah,
(27:34):
I don't know. There are a lot of big restaurants
are very popular restaurants here, and I'm just like, not
a dog. I don't want to pay I don't want
to pay thirty five dollars for to believe.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's twofold kind
of like who has access to resources versus who doesn't?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Right, who gets highlighted? You know?
Speaker 4 (27:52):
There there's that piece and what's palatable to the American
public and what's not right? Like I always say, like,
for for instance, I think like realms, we kind of
we do things a little bit different. Obviously, we honor tradition,
we honor the soul of air cuisine, but we play.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Around with it.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
And one could argue, are we is this like americanizing
the food? And they're like, no, it's just through the
lens of a yes for Palestinian Syrian by way of California.
But we I think when we first came on the scene,
I mean, there there is something to be said about
(28:35):
the privilege that I have as English speaking, as this
generation that can like what do you call it, translate
the foods to a mainstream public in a way that's
like really compelling, like.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
A mediator, almost a ladiator like, but.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
That comes from a little bit of racism, like that
people don't they want the food, you know, and so
like I am this palette character in some ways, and
that's a contradiction that I'm constantly like I don't want
to be. But it's like, what do you call that
the trojan horse?
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
But then once you come.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Into Reams, it's still it's very warm. I mean, there's
nothing we're not tricking anyone, right, But we're also truly
ourselves and that's.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Not for everybody.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
So we don't want to be a gentrifying space where like,
if you're going to come in here, you have to
deal with the community that we're in just as much
as the food that you are obsessed with now, right
because either.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Wrote about it or whatever.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
So we really and that's not for everybody, right, And
that just speaks to a like a bigger problem of
like if you like the people as much as you
like their food, Like our food is not just for sale.
You can't just take some of it and leave the
rest of it. And I think that's why the American
public is so comfortable with our foods being represented by
(30:00):
people other than us. We're not We're not We're never
the tellers of our own stories, because again, this dehumanization
of Palestinians, and it's particularly interesting now. And I would
say like Reims has always been transparent, but I've heard
from counterparts and who are now, you know, like there
are other restaurants now coming out. I think there was
(30:22):
even just an article that was released today on Eater
about the Palestinian category on Google, and you know, people
are now calling their restaurants, are maybe leading up to
this last four months calling their restaurants Palestinian.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
And that was palatable enough.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
It's like cool, like it's this culture that's really beautiful,
but then when it came down to it, when we're
experiencing a genocide, it made people feel uncomfortable. So it's
like they want to like it doesn't stop at food,
you know, And I think our food at least for me,
and I would say for a lot of people who
get into like expressing their food ways here in the US,
(31:03):
Like you can't just take some of us our food
and then dismiss the rest of us or dehumanize the
rest of us. And so I think that is the
contradiction that we're always dealing with, is like how can
we offer this beautiful culture, but not tokenize it. So
it becomes depoliticized because it is political. And if you're
(31:26):
engaging with Palestinian cuisine and consuming it, you can't just
you can't do it without either you know, being an
active participant one way or the other. Right, and what
is happening to Palestinians. And so we kind of pushed
the envelope on that, and you know, for us at Reams,
(31:48):
that has yielded a real, ever expanding community of folks
who have really maybe a few years ago, knew nothing
about Palestine. We got to do it in a way
that was right. And so we were you know, we
met people where they're at. We bring them along. It's
(32:08):
not like we're like, you know, beating anything over people's heads,
but we're like, this is what it means to be
truly authentically ourselves. This is our story, this is the history,
this is the painful atrocities, and like, if you're going
to eat our food, you have to engage with that
in some way. Like it can't just be comfortable and
like it's cool to eat Palestinian food. I don't want
(32:29):
to see our food as a trend, right.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Yeah, So while it's While it's.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Cool to see a lot of Palestinian restaurants now gaining popularity,
and hopefully, you know, REMS has paid some path for that,
we got to make sure that we're doing it in
a way that's intentional and responsible so we don't get
token zed.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
I think one just like piggyback on one thought. One
thought that I that you brought up Riham that I
thought was really interesting was like being able to tell
our own stories and often we're not. We're not, And
I think that relates to like a lot of what
we've talked about today. But I mean even like sharing
our own experiences, Like you know, I don't think it's
(33:14):
necessarily a choice to be where you you know, to
be who you are. It is what you are. And
I think ultimately there's this real pressure for Arabs and
in Palestinians as well, to sort of let other people
tell our story for us, Let other people make the food,
(33:34):
let other people photograph the traumas and the joy is
like if you go to any like art bookstore and
try to find like an Arab photographer photographing of their
own people, whether it's the wars or the joy or
art like you'll find maybe one, you know, And I've
been to them and said, hey, do you have any
(33:55):
I'm looking for like this, and I want it from
an Arab person, and like the only one is Sharina
shot Who's I'm Persian, But I don't know. I think
it's I think it's just really interesting how I think
there's like a real fear about talking about for a
lot of us, about talking about our own experiences publicly.
And I think a lot of that, A lot of
(34:19):
that comes from just like being sort of conditioned in
this country to minimize ourselves and minimize our identity.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
And I think essentially, well, there are real retributions for that. Yeah,
we get jailed, we get deported, we get fired from
our jobs. We don't get book deals, we don't get
show deals. Yeah, as we're experiencing. So it's like that's real.
Speaker 5 (34:47):
Yeah. And I mean a lot of the a lot
of the stuff we've a lot of the feedback we've
gotten on the show. I mean early on a couple
of years ago, we started getting feedback that. I mean
there were like two or three are we started pitching
and I won't call out names, but they were like
major companies and one of them was we already have
(35:08):
like our minority food show. Like that was one of
the literal biases of feedback. And another one was and
again like I just I know we've talked about Palestine
a lot, but again, like the show is not necessarily
centered around Palestinians. It's just us telling our own stories.
And one of the pieces of feedback we got was
(35:32):
they were worried that Reim and I like that our
identities were too inherently political, and it's like, okay, but
there's like nothing we can do about how you perceive us.
What we can control is saying, hey, we want to
make an Arab joy show, and we want to like
(35:52):
show off the things we love about our culture, and
we want to talk about how great the food tastes
and talk about stories like immigrant success stories of people
coming to this country. And yeah, we'll talk about the trauma,
and sure we'll talk about the politics because that's what
we're passionate about. But like to get that feedback even
(36:12):
a couple of years ago, when you know, it seemed
like everybody was sort of every culture or people were
getting their turn to sort of shine, was I was like, really,
are we still are we still here right now. Yeah,
And yeah, I mean it's gotten, it's gotten weirder as
time goes on. And you know, I don't know, no
(36:36):
show exists like this in the way that probably no
restaurant existed like Reims did when she opened it. And
I think it's going to take like someone who just
really believes and is a champion for Arab people, for
us to make something that just shows how much we
love our own people and how excited we are to
be Arab, and how excited we are to be Palestinians,
(36:59):
and how awesome our food is and how great our
culture is and how fun and exciting it is, and
all these things that people love and eat. We just
want to show them like where it comes from and
who we are, and in addition to that, show that
we're all regionally very different, like we call in this country.
(37:19):
Every type of Arab food is called Mediterranean, whether it's
Moroccan or Lebanese or Egyptian, and they're all so different,
they're all wildly different. Yeah, And I think that, Yeah,
like the fact that we haven't been able to tell
this story is wild you know, like the fact that
no one has and we've come really close, we've gotten
(37:40):
into deals before, we've gotten into shopping agreements more recently,
and sort of you know, the outcome felt punitive after
October seventh, And yeah, I think that ultimately the fact
that like we we and it doesn't you know, truly,
I hope it's me and rem but like the fact
(38:01):
that no one has been able to tell this story
for a group of people that is so huge in
the Arab community, in the Muslim community, like that no
one has been able to serve this demographic of people
with a food show is wild and there's so many
of us who would be so excited. I would be
(38:23):
so excited, Like I would be bummed that it wasn't me,
but I would be thrilled that it happened for the community.
And I don't know if not now when you know,
like the time for the time for equity injustice as always.
And I think that's generally how I sort of feel
about the show and just being able to like I
(38:45):
just want to tell the story for my community so badly,
And yeah, I mean, I don't know, I feel like
I went on a bit of a tangent. That's kind
of where I am right now.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Well, in a time of Venice side, where literally are
people and this is not just past that, It's not
you know, there's a regional are the dehumanization of Arabs
is costing us lives. Yeah, so it feels that much
more important.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
To do this work now.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, people are so used to seeing us seeing Arabs
like traumatized, are used to seeing us in pain. They're
used to seeing our countries destroyed and seeing our buildings
turned into rubble. I think so much of our culture
is so beautiful, and so much of it is about
food and art and joy. I think it's really Yeah.
(39:43):
I would be so excited for that show too, because
I if I was a little kid watching that, I
would have felt so much better about myself. And to
your point, a couple minutes ago, Realm, you were talking
about how you're not exactly a mediator, but growing up
there's almost this like shame about having like you're not
Arab enough, you're not American enough. You have a foot
(40:03):
in both worlds. But it's really a strength, you know,
in your experience and in our experience, Like we can
use that put in both worlds to our advantage and
try to show the American community how beautiful our community
is and I don't know, I think it's Yeah, I
love you.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Guys, That's what it comes down to it.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, but I really do appreciate you both doing this work,
and yeah, reminding us that it's Arab culture isn't something
to be feared. I don't know that the humanization has
gotten to a point that it's just really terrifying. And
so I think the fact that even existing is like
political or scary, and yeah, you bring to your point,
(40:51):
everything is so much more digestible for people than Arab
or than Muslim or whatever. Like in La we have
a huge Armenian community and they really embraced and I
would love that to happen for us too.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
The backlash of being Arab feels very real and visceral
right now, feels like we are in a time of
the years after nine eleven again, and especially with this
upcoming election in twenty twenty four, it's a really, I
(41:25):
think a scary time of censorship for Arabs in general
and Muslim communities. Regardless of who the candidate who wins
our political campaign, it's quite clear that the policies towards us,
(41:50):
you know, the foreign policy, but also domestically how that
has translated into hate crimes against Arabs simply for being
Arab is a really scary thing. And so yeah, it's
just a new thing that we're going to have to
navigate in this in this new era.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, I think on that note, like community is so
important and I'm really grateful to continue to foster the
community around me as well. And I think with food,
with Palestinian culture in general, it relies so much on
us remembering and continuing to talk about it and not
letting anyone forget about it. And so I think food
(42:33):
is the same way. It's just reminding everyone this is
where it comes from, this is how important it is,
this is what it means to the culture. You can't
enjoy some of our culture and not all of it,
I guess, And I feel like that happens all the time.
I really appreciate you guys both being on the show
and talking a little bit about your stories, and yeah,
I can't wait to see the show happen one day,
(42:54):
because it will happen awesome.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for for the work that I'm doing,
especially as it relates to food and hospitality. I was
one of the founders of an effort called Hospitality for
Humanity and you can find us on at Hospitality the
number four pal P A L. You know, we continue
(43:21):
to do things at REEMS and you can see us
on the socials at REEMS California, and then you can
obviously follow my whereabouts at REEM dot A C A S.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
S I L.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
I could put all your links in the description as well,
but you're real. Do you want to be found on
the internet and if so, where.
Speaker 5 (43:43):
I don't know how much I want to be found
on the internet. I will plug that. I think everyone
should call their senators and demand a ceasefire immediately, and
also consider donating to one of many nonprofits, but the
one that I have is Gaza Emergency Appeal, and uh,
just ask for a ceasefire as much as possible. But
also if somebody demanded, they'll find me. Demand demand is fired.
(44:08):
Don't ask, don't ask, sir? Please can I have? Can
I have? Are you?
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Please?
Speaker 5 (44:17):
But no?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Please, everyone that's listening, keep talking about Palestine, keep sharing
info from Palestinians themselves, and yeah three Palestine.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Yes it could happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit
our website, cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen
to podcasts, you can find sources for It could happen here,
(44:49):
updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources.
Thanks for listening.
Alzoon Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Hello everybody, This is Sharen. Welcome to it could happen
here today. We're talking to two people I love and
respect very much about a topic that I think is
really underreported on, and that's food erasure and how it's
part of ethic cleansing. And I think it's a really
important topic to talk about right now, especially with the
genocide happening in Palestine. So let's just jump right in
(00:29):
without further ado. Welcome my guests, Reeve and Jabidil.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
Hello, Hello, Hello, Hey.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Just so our audience can get to know you guys
a little bit better, how about y'all introduce yourselves and
like what you do and yeah, yeah, Ream you want
to go first?
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Sure.
Speaker 3 (00:48):
My name is Reem.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
I am a Bay Area based Palestinian Syria and chef.
I own a restaurant called Reems, California. And our mission
really is too who built community across cultures and experiences
through the warmth of Arab bread and hospitality.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Beautiful. Wow, that was so succinct. My name is thank
you for a Saesday, So.
Speaker 3 (01:14):
I've done it a few times, you know.
Speaker 5 (01:16):
Yeah. My name is Jabrell Unis. I'm a filmmaker based
in Pasadena, and I am also a Palestinian artist in general.
Speaker 2 (01:26):
Yeah, no relation. Both of our last names are Unis,
but that is how we met. A white person said,
you guys have the same last name, you should meet,
and we met. No, we're friends, But I really like
the partnership that you guys have in the collaboration that
you guys, from my perspective, have established. Can you guys
talk about what you've been working on recently together?
Speaker 5 (01:47):
Yeah? Yeah, So we've been working on for the past
since like twenty twenty one or late twenty twenty. We've
been working on a documentary series that is named after
reim cookbook, which is you should pick it up. It's
one of my favorite cookbooks that I own. It's called
Arabia and it is a documenting series exploring the food
(02:10):
ways and diaspora of Arab people across South past Asia,
North Africa. And I think the general log line and
dream can dive into a bit more of the general
log line is you can tell this like through telling
the story of the food, you can tell the story
of our people in diaspora. And it underscores a lot
of I think we'll talk about today, which is sort
(02:31):
of food, identity, identity through food and resilience and through food.
But also I think one thing that's always been really
important to both of us is how much we see
the show as like a celebration of our culture. I
feel like there are so many trauma stories from not
only Palestinians but Arabs in general, and I think something
(02:53):
that was really important to us is like, guess, let's
talk about all of it. We're an extremely I think
you know, we're extremely politicize as a people, but also
very passionate, but also let's celebrate all the things we
love about ourselves and love about our culture and the
tastes and smells and sounds and sights. So how would
you I feel like that's sort of the setup, but
(03:14):
how would you describe it?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
Yeah, I think that's exactly it. And our hope is
that the being able to break down the barriers or
have a lens into our world for the public is
kind of a gateway to understand the context and the
politics behind why things are the way they are and
(03:41):
to really fight the dehumanization that Arabs have experienced, particularly.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
In the West.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
And so, you know, while this is a show about food,
it's also it's very much a show about people and
how interconnected we are. So yeah, we're really excited to
be able to break down some of those barriers of
understanding in a way that could actually lead to people,
(04:08):
you know, fighting anti Arab sentiment in this country, fighting Islamophobia,
all of these things when they have that kind of
lens or that view into our world.
Speaker 5 (04:19):
Yeah, and I mean it's been pretty interesting. Can I
keep vamping a little bit? It's been pretty interesting. I
mean I think the sort of like thought that started
the show really was why it's so easy? And I
think we'll talk about this later too in depth, but like,
why is it so easy to find so many different
(04:39):
cultures food? You know, like you have I'm going to
use Asian food as an example because I live in
the San Gabriel Valley, so it's like all around me.
But you have Korean food and Japanese food, and so
many different types of Chinese food that are all specifically
called what they are and where they're from, right, They're
all like identified correctly. That can extend to the Latin
(05:02):
X world and their food. It can extend to European food.
It's all very you know, like people call it what
it is, and then you sort of get to you
get to you know, Southwest Asia and North Africa, and
suddenly the food stops being called you know, what it is,
and starts being called Mediterranean or starts being called Middle Eastern.
(05:26):
And I think that the idea was, like I had
gone to Anaheim, where there's a neighborhood called Little Arabia here,
and there was a Palestinian restaurant. I was like so
excited about it. It's called the Olive Tree. It's closed now,
but I was like so so excited, and I got
I always get so so excited when I find a
Palestinian restaurant or a yeah, any restaurant, and you know,
(05:51):
I mean many of them. But I think the reason
I get so excited is because it's so hard to
find those places, and I think there's a reason why.
And so, you know, three and a half years later,
the show has sort of grown from that initial thought
and interest and become very very different, and it's effort
(06:12):
to humanize Arabs, which is something I think is you know,
it's unfortunate that we still have to do that, but
I think we kind of do, especially right now. But yeah,
we've been pitching for like, you know, we worked on
it together for a while and then of been pitching
and going through pitches and talking at different companies and
getting a lot of great feedback and getting some really
weird feedback for the past like few years. And we
(06:34):
can talk about that.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
More if you want, But well, oh, I'd like to
talk about some of the more interesting feedback, I guess,
but I would also want to ask you ream how
how did you get involved in food? Like where did
that passion start?
Speaker 3 (06:50):
Yeah, I've I.
Speaker 4 (06:52):
Would say food has always been in the backdrop for
better or for worse of my life experiences, particularly when
everything falls apart from me. I grew up kind of
as a whatever. The term I've heard is like the
third culture kid, right where the Arab identity was really
(07:16):
strong in our household and that was particularly through food,
but then also and a stranger in a strange land
outside of the home where it was predominantly your typical
Americana suburban culture. And so I was kind of like,
even though food was there, the intertwining with identity made
(07:41):
me like run away from it a lot because it
reminds you of your otherness and also just the nuances
of seeing my mom being a working mom and struggling
in the kitchen. So I was like, I'm never gonna
I'm going to be a feminist and I'm never.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Gonna touch her. That was like.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
Every time, like you know, and then I did like
what the immigrant child does, like overachiever, like go to college,
try to be the president, and then realize us of
what I want to do. When I spent many years
in the nonprofit world, I was doing organizing work, and
while that work was really rewarding to some extent, it
was really draining and not fulfilling in a deeper spiritual level.
(08:24):
And so every time I would burn out, the food,
and particularly the food of my culture would come back
in some shape or form. So I just had this
kind of moment in twenty ten where I was in
another bout of burnout and depression and really questioning everything.
And it was a trip that I took to the
Arab world with my father and seeing particularly bred in
(08:45):
these straight corner bakeries be the anchor for this community
that I had, you know, as a kid of diaspora,
like really longing to feel connected to and it was
through the food that I like felt connected once again,
So my mom did something right, look of her the
credit for that, But I was like, I need to
(09:08):
explore this more. I need to understand what is this?
And so then food became a source of healing for
me to come back to my identity and come back
to my culture. But then also just the power of
food as a community builder that like transcends all cultures,
Like I really loved that as a community organizer who
had been working with other communities who struggled just like
(09:30):
my own, right, So that's kind of how I got
into food by way of my love for wanting to
belong and my love for connection of community, and then
slowly became obsessed with food itself.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
I mean, who doesn't love food?
Speaker 4 (09:46):
But it is a place of both trauma and healing
for me, So it became kind of a way to
transcend that.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
No, I think it's a great thing to bring up
how it's a trauma and very healing as well. I
to kind of talk about like the feedback. I know
you've had a restaurant in the Bay Area for a while.
Was it similar when you tried to make the show
come together? Like did you have similar barriers and feedback?
Like were you like familiar with some of the things
that people were saying, or was it completely like a
(10:17):
new game.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:19):
So the context that I started my restaurant, and I
want to say it was probably much different than even
what it is now today, although certainly there is backlash.
But I would say I was one of the first
few chefs who were saying, nope, I want my food
to be called Arab, and I really wanted to counter
(10:40):
these kind of watered down labels of Middle Eastern or
Mediterranean or you know, levantine. To me, those were all
colonial terms and it was like a bad word to
say Arab, and I wanted to reclaim that identity. I
was like, if I'm going to come out, I want
to come out as my whole self and not this person,
this scared person that was stifled all my life. And
(11:00):
I understand why the immigrants before me came, you know,
did it that way because they needed to make a living,
and you know, there was a lot of anti Arab sentiment,
especially in the wake of nine to eleven, that that
kind of climate here, and so I had this like
lovely idea that I'm like this generation where I can
like break it down and make it cool. I'm like,
(11:22):
I'm going to mainstream it, you know, And I got
pushback actually from my own family because they had those fears.
They were like, just you know, start like, don't even
start with like a Zacta event with shit, nobody's gonna
now it's like the hot thing.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
But so that was a context in which I was
opening my.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
Business and nobody had done it really before, so I
could kind of create my own rules and people.
Speaker 3 (11:46):
Are like, what is this?
Speaker 4 (11:47):
And I still got like a lot of like, oh
is this you know Mediterranean? You know people, it took
a while to train people to say Arab and then
put the layer of Palestinian identity, you know, my Palestinian
identity at the time that I was opening my restaurant
was really important. It was you know, I had started
(12:08):
my pop ups on the in the wake of Israel's
second to worst. Now we're seeing the worst of it
incursion on RaSE in twenty fourteen, in which they killed
you know, over three thousand Palestinians in one winter, and
we were devastated by that. We were devastated about the
(12:30):
state of organizing with Palestinians, and I really wanted to
as I opened my restaurant not be scared to talk
about my whole self, and so I, uh so everything
about Reims, even though we're not like pushing our politics
in your face. The very act of being Palestinian was
seen as political, just existing. And we had a mural
(12:51):
of a Palestinian activist who was based in Chicago named
Esmueroda who was deported by the government as a made
an example of to say, if you're Palestinian and you're
outspoken about Palestine, this is what will happen to you.
And I put her on the wall to remind my
community and to remind myself that we don't need to
be scared. And I got a lot of backlash for that,
(13:15):
but I think even in that time, despite the backlash,
the amount of community support, amount of opportunity for people
to learn, was that much greater, and so I ended
up getting a lot more positive attention for my bakery
overall as a result of that.
Speaker 5 (13:36):
How do you have just a few?
Speaker 4 (13:40):
It makes me happy every time I wake up with
a nomination. I'm like, I wonder what the Zionists be thinking.
It gives me a little bit of like hope that
like our success is kind of like what is threatening,
you know, because we are truth We are in the
business of truth telling, and we do it in a
way that's very human, you know, based in our humanity
(14:02):
and our dignity, and that our restaurant was really I
think powerful in that way that a simple art piece
or the simple act of making food and calling it
Palestinian was that threatening to the powers that be, you know, Like.
Speaker 5 (14:18):
That's such an interesting backdrop also to talk about the
feedback we got from the show, because like, I think
Reem's experience was so was so visceral in that way,
and I mean what she described as well, and I
think you can look it up and there have been
articles on Vice and stuff about it where people can
(14:38):
read about her experience and everything that happened. And you know,
I think maybe we undersold your intro a little bit
ram like you're a badass and you know, the James
Beard nooms and a lot of great and awesome press.
But I think what's interesting about the show is with realms,
with realms at the restaurant. You know, it's very specifically
(15:02):
Palestinian and Arab food and the show, while yeah, it's
being made by us who are Palestinian people, it's not
only about Palestine, and that's been something we've sort of
had to overcome. Like the show is about Arabs, and
it's about our foods and food ways, and as much
(15:24):
as the food, you know, the show. As much as
the show focuses on on Palestine, it also focuses on
Egypt and Yemen and where you know, I mean the
Yemeni coffee tradition is like where Arab coffee kind of
came from and started from. And it also focused on
Lebanon and Morocco and Algeria. It's been an interesting Yeah,
(15:45):
go ahead.
Speaker 4 (15:46):
Yeah, I was just to that point, like it's it's
not about I mean, first of all, these these these
states are border right, they're bordered, they're they're colonized states
in some shape or form, and ideas to fight the
tropes of the Arab as one thing, right, Like it's
showing the breadth and depth of our culture that like
(16:06):
we're not Hamat, it's not a monolith, we're not homogeneous.
And even the ethos of Reems kind of is very
similar to that idea that yes we are Palestinian, but
we're also Syrian, we're also Oakland, we're also California, Like
those things don't need to compete with one another. I
hate you know, like you know, my identity kind of
(16:30):
coming on the scene. Yes I'm Arab and yes I'm Palestinian,
but those are political identities. The reason we call our
food Palestinian is to draw attention to the ethnic cleansing.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
And e raisure of our people. That's why we call
it Palestinian. But it's not. There's there are certain foods
that are not inherent.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
I mean they're enjoyed all over the Arab world and
they look different, but you can't like the claiming of
ownership of food is yeah, so.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
We try to.
Speaker 4 (16:54):
I think this show is really trying to fight against
that of the it's called ada Bia, which is kind
of like a tongue in cheek, like what do you
think of with the Arab woman? And it's like, let
me take all of those stereotypes and like turn them
on their head. It's the same thing with like all
of our food ways in our culture. There is no
(17:15):
singular way of what an Arab is. We all have
kind of our unique stories and histories. So when we
choose to call things what they are, there's a context
in a history for that, and that's what we're trying
to share.
Speaker 5 (17:29):
Yeah, exactly, I think.
Speaker 2 (17:32):
I mean, I really really relate to the idea of
really wanting to be represented with food. Like when I
find a Syrian restaurant, I freak out. Like there's one
alcohol in southern California where it's like my family and
I go there every weekend when I'm down and when
I'm visiting my parents. It's just like a place where
(17:54):
we feel like the closest we can get to home again.
And I think it's a really important and like reminder
that I don't know, food is food can be really powerful.
And before I keep rambling, I'm going to take our
break and we'll be right back. And we are back, reim.
(18:22):
You mentioned something earlier that I think is worth touching
back on the idea of like existing being already like
a political act. I think that is like it's a
burden for a lot of people of color and a
lot of marginalized communities. And I think hand in hand
with that is the fact that like our food is
also like a political act, like making sure it's couscus
(18:44):
not is really cuscus or whatever it is that we're
trying to fight against How do you see food, and
especially now, I think people underestimate how many levels there
are of ethnic cleansing, because erasing food and appropriating food
is a huge part of that, right, So can I
get your take on that, both of your takes.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
You mean, like beyond appropriating, Yeah, I mean I think
food is a tool of It is weaponized historically against people,
I mean most doubtably obviously with seventy five years of
occupation of Palestine. One of the many ways, besides the dispossession, killing, expulsion,
(19:31):
is to sever us from our food ways. And when
you sever someone from their land that creates the food ways,
you sever them from their culture, from their existence. Then
there's just the most the more immediate way as we're
seeing this genocide unfolds, where you can starve a population
with that, and so food then becomes kind of this
(19:54):
powerful tool to break a people and why we see
people like food become a form of resistance for people.
But even here in our communities, I mean, this is
not unfortunately unique to the Palestinians. You've seen the pillaging
of indigenous folks here in this country, the same things
(20:19):
kind of cutting them off from their food ways, their
means of subsistence, of supporting one another, of you know,
being connected to their culture. And now you're seeing in
communities through economic policy, like food deserts and people not
being able to access their food or have sovereignty over
their food production. So it is absolutely a tool and
(20:43):
something that we talk about at REAMS a lot that
like the fight for Palestine is the fight for food
sovereignty everywhere and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
Right, Well, I'm glad you brought up the idea of
or just the fact that like Israel and design is
has like taken Palestinians from their land. And I've talked
about this before on this podcast, but like the olive
tree is a very significant part of Palestinian culture, and
like olive harvesting is a huge part of Palestinian life.
(21:13):
And so when you burn down thousands of olive trees,
or when you kick people out of like thet agriculturally
rich parts of the land, you're denying them so much
more than just olives. It's like very deep. And I
think when people that are not as informed about Palestine
question like why is there a watermelon? Like what's this?
(21:33):
And what's the olive about? And I think that goes
to show how powerful food can be. And just for
those who don't know, the watermelon became an active or
a symbol of resistance because the Palestinia flag was not
allowed to be raised for a while and it has
the same colors as the Palestinian flag, and so that's
just like a really beautiful way that food has become
(21:53):
this like powerful symbol. And so I just I just
trying to know emphasize that a little bit. I guess, Jabill,
what's your take.
Speaker 5 (22:04):
Yeah, I mean I think that I think just I'll
speak like a little bit more domestically. I feel like
Raem is so eloquent and talking about historic parts of it,
but I mean even here, like domestically in Los Angeles
or California, I think one of the things, and it
kind of goes back to what we were talking about earlier.
One of the things that's one of the things that's
difficult is there are so few identifying parts of or
(22:28):
just restaurants in general, like correctly identifying restaurants Syria in
or lebaneses or Palestinian or what have you, and they
hide under these names, which when I'm not going to
name like specific restaurants here, but like which when other
restaurants open and maybe they're owned by an Italian person
(22:49):
or just other people that aren't Arab, and suddenly they're
taking the food and misappropriating it and calling it. Yeah,
I mean, Israeli kuskus are like is rarely salad or
Israeli falaffle or hey, here's all this food and it's
shuarma and it's kebabs and it's menish and we're an
(23:10):
Israeli restaurant. Like these are things that are really difficult
because I think, you know, those things tend to be
unfortunately just like more approachable, saying Mediterranean tends to be
more approachable, and what you get ultimately is a population
of I would say a larger population of non Arab
people that don't really understand what they're eating and they're
(23:31):
not educated on where it comes from. And just the
amount of people you know, anecdotally that I personally have
met who like don't know that this food is Arab
food or don't know like what where the food comes from,
which is so interesting to me because it's not an
experience that I think many other cultures or ethnicities have.
(23:54):
And so yeah, I mean I kind of always joke
that I feel like are really close. Example is if
you know, somebody started, like an American person started making
sushi and they're like, this is American food and it's
just not at the same time. And so I think
that the need to assimilate for generations before Reims and
(24:17):
I I have an empathy for the want of safety
that they were doing and the want to make a
living and the reasons they did it. I think we
kind of alluded to that earlier. But where it's left
us now is a population of Arabs and diaspora that
(24:38):
I think are harmed for it. You know, like we
don't have we don't show up on the census, and
it's all sort of one part. It's all they're all
different parts of the one problem. And I think that
when you take the food and you don't give it
its correct name, and you don't or you give it
the incorrect name, it hurts all of us in ways
(24:58):
that like we can't even imagine, whether it's at work
or in Diversity and Belonging initiative it's not including Swanamina people,
or whether it's just in food ways and not being
included or not being included in the census, which leads
to us not having as much community support around our
people are not knowing medical statistics. I think they're all
(25:22):
they're symptoms of a bigger issue, and I think one
of the ways you combat that issue is through knowledge
and shared learning and shared experience. And I think food
and food ways are one of the main ways that
people experience and learn about other cultures. And I think
if people look at that in their own lives, you
(25:43):
can apply it to any culture of food that you
really love and maybe it's not your own, and you've
learned something about those people through that, you know. I
think the main dishes of any culture, it says a
lot about out where that culture has been, where they
come from, what their history is. And I think people
(26:05):
being able to experience those things and go to a
Mexican restaurant and learn about, you know, a certain dish
and where it comes from or why it's there, or
why it's named something is an experience that allows them
to learn about a culture. And we just don't necessarily
have that here. And then when you add on, you know,
misnomers or incorrect labels, it becomes even more damaging and
(26:28):
also just hurtful and very annoying, Like it's so annoying,
and I like, I don't want to go. I'm sorry,
Like there are restaurants in LA that I like just
don't want to go to. And maybe the chefs are
really nice and they might be allies in some ways
or maybe they're not, but like I would rather give please,
Like I would rather give my money to like an
(26:50):
Arab person making our own food rather than going to
experience it in a different way, you know what I mean,
Like I don't. I don't know, so I think that's
kind of like how I generally feel. And the less
professional answer is I just find it like really annoying.
And I'm like, come on, y'all, there's so many listen, Like,
we're not LA is not New York. We have like
(27:11):
not as many Arab places to go. They're sort of few.
You have to seek them out a little bit more here.
But I'm like, come on, y'all, we're out here. Yeah,
go find go find us, like, go find give your
money to like this Syrian immigrant who moved here and
started this place that everybody loves. And you know, I, yeah,
(27:34):
I don't know. There are a lot of big restaurants
are very popular restaurants here, and I'm just like, not
a dog. I don't want to pay I don't want
to pay thirty five dollars for to believe.
Speaker 4 (27:43):
Yeah, I think, I mean, I think it's twofold kind
of like who has access to resources versus who doesn't?
Speaker 3 (27:49):
Right, who gets highlighted? You know?
Speaker 4 (27:52):
There there's that piece and what's palatable to the American
public and what's not right? Like I always say, like,
for for instance, I think like realms, we kind of
we do things a little bit different. Obviously, we honor tradition,
we honor the soul of air cuisine, but we play.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
Around with it.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
And one could argue, are we is this like americanizing
the food? And they're like, no, it's just through the
lens of a yes for Palestinian Syrian by way of California.
But we I think when we first came on the scene,
I mean, there there is something to be said about
(28:35):
the privilege that I have as English speaking, as this
generation that can like what do you call it, translate
the foods to a mainstream public in a way that's
like really compelling, like.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
A mediator, almost a ladiator like, but.
Speaker 4 (28:53):
That comes from a little bit of racism, like that
people don't they want the food, you know, and so
like I am this palette character in some ways, and
that's a contradiction that I'm constantly like I don't want
to be. But it's like, what do you call that
the trojan horse?
Speaker 5 (29:12):
Right?
Speaker 3 (29:12):
But then once you come.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
Into Reams, it's still it's very warm. I mean, there's
nothing we're not tricking anyone, right, But we're also truly
ourselves and that's.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
Not for everybody.
Speaker 4 (29:23):
So we don't want to be a gentrifying space where like,
if you're going to come in here, you have to
deal with the community that we're in just as much
as the food that you are obsessed with now, right
because either.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
Wrote about it or whatever.
Speaker 4 (29:37):
So we really and that's not for everybody, right, And
that just speaks to a like a bigger problem of
like if you like the people as much as you
like their food, Like our food is not just for sale.
You can't just take some of it and leave the
rest of it. And I think that's why the American
public is so comfortable with our foods being represented by
(30:00):
people other than us. We're not We're not We're never
the tellers of our own stories, because again, this dehumanization
of Palestinians, and it's particularly interesting now. And I would
say like Reims has always been transparent, but I've heard
from counterparts and who are now, you know, like there
are other restaurants now coming out. I think there was
(30:22):
even just an article that was released today on Eater
about the Palestinian category on Google, and you know, people
are now calling their restaurants, are maybe leading up to
this last four months calling their restaurants Palestinian.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
And that was palatable enough.
Speaker 4 (30:41):
It's like cool, like it's this culture that's really beautiful,
but then when it came down to it, when we're
experiencing a genocide, it made people feel uncomfortable. So it's
like they want to like it doesn't stop at food,
you know, And I think our food at least for me,
and I would say for a lot of people who
get into like expressing their food ways here in the US,
(31:03):
Like you can't just take some of us our food
and then dismiss the rest of us or dehumanize the
rest of us. And so I think that is the
contradiction that we're always dealing with, is like how can
we offer this beautiful culture, but not tokenize it. So
it becomes depoliticized because it is political. And if you're
(31:26):
engaging with Palestinian cuisine and consuming it, you can't just
you can't do it without either you know, being an
active participant one way or the other. Right, and what
is happening to Palestinians. And so we kind of pushed
the envelope on that, and you know, for us at Reams,
(31:48):
that has yielded a real, ever expanding community of folks
who have really maybe a few years ago, knew nothing
about Palestine. We got to do it in a way
that was right. And so we were you know, we
met people where they're at. We bring them along. It's
(32:08):
not like we're like, you know, beating anything over people's heads,
but we're like, this is what it means to be
truly authentically ourselves. This is our story, this is the history,
this is the painful atrocities, and like, if you're going
to eat our food, you have to engage with that
in some way. Like it can't just be comfortable and
like it's cool to eat Palestinian food. I don't want
(32:29):
to see our food as a trend, right.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
Yeah, So while it's While it's.
Speaker 4 (32:33):
Cool to see a lot of Palestinian restaurants now gaining popularity,
and hopefully, you know, REMS has paid some path for that,
we got to make sure that we're doing it in
a way that's intentional and responsible so we don't get
token zed.
Speaker 5 (32:51):
I think one just like piggyback on one thought. One
thought that I that you brought up Riham that I
thought was really interesting was like being able to tell
our own stories and often we're not. We're not, And
I think that relates to like a lot of what
we've talked about today. But I mean even like sharing
our own experiences, Like you know, I don't think it's
(33:14):
necessarily a choice to be where you you know, to
be who you are. It is what you are. And
I think ultimately there's this real pressure for Arabs and
in Palestinians as well, to sort of let other people
tell our story for us, Let other people make the food,
(33:34):
let other people photograph the traumas and the joy is
like if you go to any like art bookstore and
try to find like an Arab photographer photographing of their
own people, whether it's the wars or the joy or
art like you'll find maybe one, you know, And I've
been to them and said, hey, do you have any
(33:55):
I'm looking for like this, and I want it from
an Arab person, and like the only one is Sharina
shot Who's I'm Persian, But I don't know. I think
it's I think it's just really interesting how I think
there's like a real fear about talking about for a
lot of us, about talking about our own experiences publicly.
And I think a lot of that, A lot of
(34:19):
that comes from just like being sort of conditioned in
this country to minimize ourselves and minimize our identity.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
And I think essentially, well, there are real retributions for that. Yeah,
we get jailed, we get deported, we get fired from
our jobs. We don't get book deals, we don't get
show deals. Yeah, as we're experiencing. So it's like that's real.
Speaker 5 (34:47):
Yeah. And I mean a lot of the a lot
of the stuff we've a lot of the feedback we've
gotten on the show. I mean early on a couple
of years ago, we started getting feedback that. I mean
there were like two or three are we started pitching
and I won't call out names, but they were like
major companies and one of them was we already have
(35:08):
like our minority food show. Like that was one of
the literal biases of feedback. And another one was and
again like I just I know we've talked about Palestine
a lot, but again, like the show is not necessarily
centered around Palestinians. It's just us telling our own stories.
And one of the pieces of feedback we got was
(35:32):
they were worried that Reim and I like that our
identities were too inherently political, and it's like, okay, but
there's like nothing we can do about how you perceive us.
What we can control is saying, hey, we want to
make an Arab joy show, and we want to like
(35:52):
show off the things we love about our culture, and
we want to talk about how great the food tastes
and talk about stories like immigrant success stories of people
coming to this country. And yeah, we'll talk about the trauma,
and sure we'll talk about the politics because that's what
we're passionate about. But like to get that feedback even
(36:12):
a couple of years ago, when you know, it seemed
like everybody was sort of every culture or people were
getting their turn to sort of shine, was I was like, really,
are we still are we still here right now. Yeah,
And yeah, I mean it's gotten, it's gotten weirder as
time goes on. And you know, I don't know, no
(36:36):
show exists like this in the way that probably no
restaurant existed like Reims did when she opened it. And
I think it's going to take like someone who just
really believes and is a champion for Arab people, for
us to make something that just shows how much we
love our own people and how excited we are to
be Arab, and how excited we are to be Palestinians,
(36:59):
and how awesome our food is and how great our
culture is and how fun and exciting it is, and
all these things that people love and eat. We just
want to show them like where it comes from and
who we are, and in addition to that, show that
we're all regionally very different, like we call in this country.
(37:19):
Every type of Arab food is called Mediterranean, whether it's
Moroccan or Lebanese or Egyptian, and they're all so different,
they're all wildly different. Yeah, And I think that, Yeah,
like the fact that we haven't been able to tell
this story is wild you know, like the fact that
no one has and we've come really close, we've gotten
(37:40):
into deals before, we've gotten into shopping agreements more recently,
and sort of you know, the outcome felt punitive after
October seventh, And yeah, I think that ultimately the fact
that like we we and it doesn't you know, truly,
I hope it's me and rem but like the fact
(38:01):
that no one has been able to tell this story
for a group of people that is so huge in
the Arab community, in the Muslim community, like that no
one has been able to serve this demographic of people
with a food show is wild and there's so many
of us who would be so excited. I would be
(38:23):
so excited, Like I would be bummed that it wasn't me,
but I would be thrilled that it happened for the community.
And I don't know if not now when you know,
like the time for the time for equity injustice as always.
And I think that's generally how I sort of feel
about the show and just being able to like I
(38:45):
just want to tell the story for my community so badly,
And yeah, I mean, I don't know, I feel like
I went on a bit of a tangent. That's kind
of where I am right now.
Speaker 4 (38:56):
Well, in a time of Venice side, where literally are
people and this is not just past that, It's not
you know, there's a regional are the dehumanization of Arabs
is costing us lives. Yeah, so it feels that much
more important.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
To do this work now.
Speaker 2 (39:19):
Yeah, people are so used to seeing us seeing Arabs
like traumatized, are used to seeing us in pain. They're
used to seeing our countries destroyed and seeing our buildings
turned into rubble. I think so much of our culture
is so beautiful, and so much of it is about
food and art and joy. I think it's really Yeah.
(39:43):
I would be so excited for that show too, because
I if I was a little kid watching that, I
would have felt so much better about myself. And to
your point, a couple minutes ago, Realm, you were talking
about how you're not exactly a mediator, but growing up
there's almost this like shame about having like you're not
Arab enough, you're not American enough. You have a foot
(40:03):
in both worlds. But it's really a strength, you know,
in your experience and in our experience, Like we can
use that put in both worlds to our advantage and
try to show the American community how beautiful our community
is and I don't know, I think it's Yeah, I
love you.
Speaker 3 (40:23):
Guys, That's what it comes down to it.
Speaker 2 (40:29):
Yeah, but I really do appreciate you both doing this work,
and yeah, reminding us that it's Arab culture isn't something
to be feared. I don't know that the humanization has
gotten to a point that it's just really terrifying. And
so I think the fact that even existing is like
political or scary, and yeah, you bring to your point,
(40:51):
everything is so much more digestible for people than Arab
or than Muslim or whatever. Like in La we have
a huge Armenian community and they really embraced and I
would love that to happen for us too.
Speaker 4 (41:04):
The backlash of being Arab feels very real and visceral
right now, feels like we are in a time of
the years after nine eleven again, and especially with this
upcoming election in twenty twenty four, it's a really, I
(41:25):
think a scary time of censorship for Arabs in general
and Muslim communities. Regardless of who the candidate who wins
our political campaign, it's quite clear that the policies towards us,
(41:50):
you know, the foreign policy, but also domestically how that
has translated into hate crimes against Arabs simply for being
Arab is a really scary thing. And so yeah, it's
just a new thing that we're going to have to
navigate in this in this new era.
Speaker 2 (42:11):
Yeah, I think on that note, like community is so
important and I'm really grateful to continue to foster the
community around me as well. And I think with food,
with Palestinian culture in general, it relies so much on
us remembering and continuing to talk about it and not
letting anyone forget about it. And so I think food
(42:33):
is the same way. It's just reminding everyone this is
where it comes from, this is how important it is,
this is what it means to the culture. You can't
enjoy some of our culture and not all of it,
I guess, And I feel like that happens all the time.
I really appreciate you guys both being on the show
and talking a little bit about your stories, and yeah,
I can't wait to see the show happen one day,
(42:54):
because it will happen awesome.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
Thank you. Yeah, thanks for for the work that I'm doing,
especially as it relates to food and hospitality. I was
one of the founders of an effort called Hospitality for
Humanity and you can find us on at Hospitality the
number four pal P A L. You know, we continue
(43:21):
to do things at REEMS and you can see us
on the socials at REEMS California, and then you can
obviously follow my whereabouts at REEM dot A C A S.
Speaker 5 (43:34):
S I L.
Speaker 2 (43:35):
I could put all your links in the description as well,
but you're real. Do you want to be found on
the internet and if so, where.
Speaker 5 (43:43):
I don't know how much I want to be found
on the internet. I will plug that. I think everyone
should call their senators and demand a ceasefire immediately, and
also consider donating to one of many nonprofits, but the
one that I have is Gaza Emergency Appeal, and uh,
just ask for a ceasefire as much as possible. But
also if somebody demanded, they'll find me. Demand demand is fired.
(44:08):
Don't ask, don't ask, sir? Please can I have? Can
I have? Are you?
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Please?
Speaker 5 (44:17):
But no?
Speaker 2 (44:17):
Please, everyone that's listening, keep talking about Palestine, keep sharing
info from Palestinians themselves, and yeah three Palestine.
Speaker 1 (44:29):
Yes it could happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit
our website, cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out
on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen
to podcasts, you can find sources for It could happen here,
(44:49):
updated monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources.
Thanks for listening.
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James Stout
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