August 28, 2025 • 21 mins
Mia continues her conversation with journalist David Forbes about two recent horrific anti-trans bills in North Carolina and how Democrats made them possible.
https://transnews.network/p/nc-dems-anti-trans-betrayals
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome Dick It Happened Here a podcast about things falling
apart and also sometimes about how claiming that you were
going to put things back together and then not doing
it makes things fall apart even worse. I am your host,
Mia Wong, and today we are going to be continuing
with part two of my interview with David Forbes, an
editor and journalist with the Trans News Network in the
(00:27):
Asheville Blade, about the history of the North Carolina Democratic
Parties progressive veneer over their agreement with Republican policies, and importantly,
how the Democratic Party's original response to the anti trans
bathroom bills from twenty sixteen paved the way for where
we are today. So enjoy. Let's talk about the original
(00:51):
bathroom bills, because I think there's some knowledge well, okay,
I don't know. It's been almost a decade. Yeah, so
I think people may have forgotten how this all start.
Is let's talk about the first bathroom bills, what happened,
and then how the Democrats kind of ensured that they
would stay in place.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Sure, so there is the big one everyone knows about
is HB two because it became kind of internationally famous
as the North Carolina bathroom Bill, and even I think
for folks who memories may have faded, it has come
up recently as kind of a benchmark, and often a
misinterpreted one. Is we're about to get into for how
far things have shifted, because on paper it looks like
(01:30):
this really horribly backfired, and in some ways it did.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Initially.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
HB two was a bill that was kind of slapped
in last minute. It clearly drew from the larger anti
trans far right policy circles which North Carolin Republicans are
highly connected to. Those kind of Dems often kind of
view themselves their own little like institution, like where the
Democratic moderorate.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
It's like North northund Democrats have always been at their best.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
People of that ttuation when we talked about the Republicans
here were like, Okay, we're now in power, which they
were starting in twenty eleven. Let's try out this stuff
from ALEC, Let's try out this stuff from some obscure
right wing think tank. And that meant they were plugged
in when in the wake of Obergafell, and also in
North Carolina as well the year before, you'd had equal
(02:19):
marriage for that whole swath of the South was kind
of imposed by a federal court order or recognized by
federal court order. So they were like, Okay, this isn't working.
There is not just more. There is more de facto
on the ground popular acceptance of equal marriage. Now that's
not the wedge it was previously. So what do we
shift to? What we shift to? Trans people? And so
(02:41):
North caronl legislators very eager to try out far right policies.
The Caron GOP is far right even by Southern standards,
which is interesting because the state's very split as far
as like votes and demographics go. So twenty sixteens rolled
around four years earlier, the Dems had done the usual thing.
They'd run a super conservative, super pro business, white guy Democrat.
(03:03):
He got trounced by Pat McCrory, who was the former
mayor of Charlotte, and Rain was like, oh, I'm a moderate,
sensible Republican. I'm going to bounce out the legislature a
little bit. But unlike too many outside the region and
the state who kind of wrote a oka in North
Carolina just becoming this red state now like other Southern
states have, they knew their hole was actually really precarious.
Now think jerrymandered extensively, so extensively that like North Carolina
(03:29):
the same year as HB two pass stopped being recognized
as a democracy by the the policiers the study. As
a matter of fact, the district Carolina they did a
whole commentary later that year that these were the most
rigged districts, the most chairman districts they'd seen, not just
in the US, but anywhere in the world.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
So that is where we live. That's where we lived
for some time.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
But the governors like the statewide so he's in a
more precarious position, and they wanted a wedge issue in
their view to drive out conservative votes. They also hate
trans people and want to hurt us. So this HB
two said that trans people can't go into bathrooms unless
they use the one matching their birth certificate in any
(04:13):
state building in North Carolina.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
And this technically also.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Includes like local government buildings, includes like social services, it
includes like any educational setting pretty much. So this was
clearly a slab dash affair. They didn't even have like
an enforcement mechanism in there. But I did a few
other things too, I think people forget about, which is
it also stripped the ability of localities to make their
own minimum wage rules. So it was also an attack
(04:38):
on labor because those always go together and not unrelated.
Trans and queen people are only working class demographics, which
I don't think get setting up, and also essentially users
on reaction to Charlotte adding gender identity to its existing
non discrimination ordinance. There's old was a local one, but
in reality, you know, if chart had never done that,
(04:59):
they would have done a bill like this pretty shortly. Anyway,
it was kind of just the excuse. And they also
struck down all non discrimination ordinances across the state, like
local non discrimination ordinances. So this is a broad attack
with trans people as kind of the point of the spear,
as it were, like the ones most in the front lines.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
It's a familiar pattern.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
You go after trans rights, you're also going after broad
rights for any marginalized group because non discrimation stuff is
being struck down left and right, and also your attacking
labor yep. So you know, it really kind of set
the model for things to come. HB two sparks a
massive international backlash. I think the indestment was four hundred million.
(05:41):
The state lost four hundred million, as companies pulled out,
events pulled out. There was a boycott, a fairly effective one, honestly,
that was started as grassroots though gay inc Groups and
even like just random nonprofits, and some Democratic Party officials
later joined in on it. So the money being hemorrhage
left and right, McCrory's being turned into a national laughing stock,
(06:04):
if anything, is proving a rallying point for the other side.
Because twenty sixteen rolls around, and in a year where
Trump takes North Carolina and generally the Republicans do fairly
well throughout the South, even in a swing states like NC,
McCrory loses. He loses to the Attorney General, Roy Cooper
is a Democrat. Now, I would never say his prograins
(06:24):
we're about again some major betrayals he did. He was
more willing to say, at least perfunctory statements about trains
rights than any northbound Democratic politician as a statewide level
before and honestly since, including the current governor. And yeah,
he proceeded to win, so he gets in office. North
(06:51):
Carolina gentry are historically plenty fine with big A treatment,
but the Republicans had by this point broken one of
their cardinal rules.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Which is they fucked with the money.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, because like the state was losing money, they were
losing business deals, corporate headquarters and stuff. And this is
a lot of what the status quo, very anti labour says.
Quote that North Tide Democrats and Republicans had generally both
supported in varying ways was in danger. And you know
some of them person who were losing money. So they
basically tell the Republicans in early twenty seventeen to knock
(07:21):
it off, like, Okay, you've gone far enough.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
It didn't work, you lost the election.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They still do the Jerry manner had a lot of
power in the state legislature, but they didn't have the
governor's office anymore, so you know, repeal this like we're
getting too much BAP publicity. And what really escalated it
was basketball is kind of a religion in North Carolina,
especially college basketball, and the NCAA said, look, we'll pull
the tournament out of HB two is still in the books.
And at that point there became like these back and
(07:49):
forth sessions. Earlier in December, there was this compromise effort
where supposedly Charlotte would strike its non discrimination stuff on
its end.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
It was currently.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Liket of legal challenge. They'd gone to court to fight
to uphold it. And this should have been a warning
sign the governor, Governor ELEC Cooper at that point broker
kind of this deal where okay, Charlotte, you take trains
people out of your non screaming short and insa of
your own accord and the state will repeal HB two.
Well that didn't happen. They did the first part, and
(08:19):
then the let's sae legislators were like, okay, well that's nice,
we're not doing anything about this. That should have been
a lesson about complying in the advance, but it didn't
really seem to take sadly, so HB two was sow
in the books by March, you know, March madness is
coming up and all that. And so they finally do
a repeal and this is still hailed as oh, look
(08:41):
like back in the day, like even Republicans, some Republicans
would like repeal a trans bill when it got this
big backlash. Their federal funding was being threatened as well
for the state. I was not like federal education funding
and all. That's not what happened though, And what happened
I think is actually was a lot more ominous and
a lot more revealing. What passed instead was honest a
second bathroom bill called HB one four to two or
(09:03):
HB two point zero, as a lot of activists and
queer folks in the ground transfer the Ground dubbed it.
And what this bill did was it technically took out
the bathroom ban, but it's put in a bunch of
byzantine provisions about who could use the bathroom wins, so
it would still take a court case for a trans
woman to go use the women's bathroom. It kept all
the anti labor stuff, and it kept all the non
(09:24):
discrimination stuff struck down for years, like you couldn't pass
local manuscration protections for years. And at this point the
pressure is mounting the Democratic Party for the first time
in most of a decade, their votes in the legislature
actually matter because the Republican they're split between kind of
the capitalists who are hate trains that we're using this
(09:44):
as a wedge issue and now the money's being fucked
with they're ready to repeal it, and some of the
others who are like, no, no, we really are dedicated to
hating trans people. Mistake can burn as long as trans
people's lives are made more miserable. So they have the
votes in their own caucus to pass this. So for
once DEM's had a lot of power and they could
have easily been like no floor or peel or nothing,
and they probably would have gotten it through. They did not.
(10:07):
They sided with the Republicans. They passed this mess that
essentially kept the status quo. It was just barely enough
for the NCAA, who even noted they even know their corporation.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Basically they know it was.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Reluctant that they were, you know, putting the tournament back
in NC, but they did. The governor knew. Governor democratic
governor signed it. I probably mentioned earlier. HB two passed
with two Democratic votes in the first place. This is
like not a new trend of this happening. Heck, anti
queer stuff even well before that would often pass with
Democratic support as well as Republican support, often be signed
(10:40):
by democratic governors, so this is not an entirely new thing.
And this is also a point where you can see
gay ink splitting a bit because gay ink did actually
have actually condemned HB two point zero, but once it
became passed, they either offered tempted statements or they backed down.
And so the US and from HB two wasn't okay.
(11:03):
Back in the day, you know, nine years ago, trans
rights used to be more of a consensus, even among
moderate conservatives, at least basic protections for it. And a
good example was how unpopular HBT was. It was repealed
under all this backlash. It did get a backlash, yeah,
but it wasn't really repealed. And as a matter of fact,
what the far right learned was that when it comes
(11:25):
down to it, the Democrats North Carolina, it turned out
elsewhere will fold if trans rights has made an issue.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, and you know, and you can watch everything that
has happened since with trans rights has just been the
Democrats folding over and over and over again and getting
weaker and weaker language until we're in this place now,
you know, Like and I think the thing that is
a little bit different, is it Like you used to
have to like claim you had done something yeah about
(11:53):
the anti trans bill, and now you can just sign
it yeah, and it becomes law. And this is something
that has does played out across the coach, Like there
have been a lot of states where democratic governors have
signed anti trans bills, yes.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Or vita pro trans bills like in California. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
And you know even in states where like Pritzker, the
governor of Illinois, has been being held up as like
the big pro trans people I've seen. I see like
even trans leftists doing this. And you know, like there
are a lot of things in Illinois that are very
good for trans people because of the weird Pritzker corruption,
his sister is trans. And also the moment the government
was like, oh hey, we're gonna like sort of make
(12:29):
a big show of threatening like healthcare funding, Pritsker just
folded and let all these hospitals stop providing transcrir to youth,
even though it is literally a violation of Illinois like
of Illinois ANSI discrimination legislation.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Yeah, they just back down and refuse to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
And the way that this starts is that there is
a gap between the rhetoric of someone like Pritzker being like, oh, no,
like we support trans rights. Trans rights are in an
important civil rights issue, and then you watch them like
allow a bunch of hospitals in Illinois to stop providing
care to trans kids. And the place where that ends
is more and more Democrats just straight up voting for
(13:04):
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And it's and the Democrats, you know, as you're talking
about with with HB two is like, you know, there
were there were Democratic votes on that one.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, HB one four two especially, Yeah, the compromise, Billy,
but even HB too itself. Yeah, there were there were
Democrats who score that too.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
And so this is this is I think the critical
part of this is that, like this stuff only can
happen with the support of the Democrats. And that's why
it's happening. It's because yes, because like and this is
this is something that's incredibly important right now. We're like
all of the ship that is happening, all these Republicans
are doing are hideously unpotty, like thirty percent approval ratings
across the board for like all of this just hideously
(13:44):
hideously hated. The only way it can happen is if
the Democrats go collaborationists inside with the Republicans, and that's
what they're doing now.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Things always need whislims.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, and they're relying on the image of resistance to
distract everyone from the fact that they're helping these policies
go through and if you want to stop them, you
have to stop them from collaborating.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
I think I also brings up kind of the third
element in this. You've got the bar always fascist, increasingly
fashist Republican Party. You've got the increasing collaborations Democratic Party,
and especially on queer and trains rights. You have gay
inc which, and I go into some examples in the piece.
After HB two point zero they put out some preferrenctory statements,
but then they turned to gatekeeping, and the ensuing years
(14:36):
they very consistently tried to stifle any activism that was
more radical or more principled to try to get this
stuff off the books, and especially if it came to
holding Democratic officials feet the fire. I literally have an
example in the article that I was physically therefore and
witnessed where a director of the canvass and Equality sees
(14:56):
the mic as it was being passes in candidates to
answer a stronger question and from some transactivists and change
the question to something that didn't actually put any pressure
on them at all, like just kind of absurd, petty
stuff like that. But the coom of effect has been that,
you know, they turned to thinking about their political careers
and their fundraising. And when push comes to shove again
(15:18):
and again, they've shown they won't hold Democrats' feet to
the fire. If anything, they will tell the Trains people
trying to hold their feet the fire to shut up.
So if you know that the lobby, the official lobby
that's supposed to, you know, ostensibly, on some level stand
up for some mild version of trains and queer rights,
will never give someone any shit for breaking ranks. Not
(15:39):
even like we condemn officials so and so and their
bigotry or whatever more we are sorely disappointed in or
anyone of the boiler play things. They won't even go
that far. That's too far for them. So you have
Democrats collaborating and a gay ink structure that has taken
the energy and funding out of lave of the queer activists,
(16:00):
but will absolutely will not fight when Democrats are involved.
So if you're fascist, all you have to do is
get some Democrats involved.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Yeah, and that's that's how you give VICHI friends Like
that's yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And honestly, this is it's a question I put to
folks because you know, look, I'm honestly dealing with the
North crownd Democrats. Is one of the things that made
me an anarchist. So yeah, so it's you know, I've
not had any faith in them for a very very
long time. But for folks that you know, kind of
do put a little more energie into electoral processes, I
just you know, a questions the piece I think are
(16:32):
worth asking them, Like what's the point of people who
are just going to support your enemies?
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah? What's the point of.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
People that you elect, maybe even like get out you
know and dock doors or whatever to get elected, who
then don't do the one thing they're elected to do?
And God asked too for some of the folks who
support some of these gay ink ords, I was like,
if they won't fight, now, what is the point of them? Yeah,
why do they deserve any support from us as a community?
(17:00):
Or is it far past time to look to other alternatives?
There was only lesson hbto taught as well, which is
if you want even the most die hard bigot to
start losing their nerve, to attack their money and their power,
and then you don't stop if so, say all you
have to compromise with a pragmatic solution, You ignore them,
(17:21):
laugh in their faces, do whatever. But you keep pressting
them because that was their thing. HQ too, there was
a really effective campaign to boycott and it did have
a substantial effect. You know, the lovely weapon of vicious
mockery really came in handy, and even the rulgas didn't
like becoming a national laughing stock, so there were less
about how stuff could be fought as well. And the
(17:44):
more radical history in North Carolina. You know, there are
there are quer radicals here and you know, my city
was hit by a massive hurricane last year and honestly,
it was a lot of US radicals getting out in
the ground that kept things from getting even worse. And
you know, and just folks on the ground pitching in
outside of government structures, not waiting for the official nonprofits
(18:04):
who were either devastated or had not planned for this.
So there are other alternatives, you know, and or heck
that the hell.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
I have to remember, I could curse here.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That the fact that civil rights we the low attention
has gone to sitidence and there was a lot of
organizing in those movements.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
It's a lot more Miltont than folks.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Remember that also went along three decades of riots and
cities throughout the state before the old order even began.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
To budge a little bit.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And the lesson from that North caround Democrats and North
Caunta status quo. And I see throughout the South and
throughout the country it only budges even starts to move
when the cost of continuing the way it is become
far too high.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, and our job is to impose that cost. Yes,
because if we don't impose that cost, they're going to
keep pushing and they are going to continue to write
us out of existence until they have the guns to
do it.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
And on that is that is a mentality I think
a lot more people need to need to absorb. And
I think one of the lessons from you know, fighting
the far right at some points for my entire like
adult life basically even a little bit before then in
North Carolina is that the more you fight than the
weaker they are. But also, and this is this is
(19:21):
something one of the more experience transfernds us South I
know has emphasized, you won't always win, you can always
inflict a cost. And I think a little more like
thinking outside of elections, a little more bloody minded determination
can really come in handy of the sense of like
if our enemies are like, Okay, court rules against us,
We're still pressing the attack. Okay, election goes against us,
(19:45):
We're still pressing the attack. I think we can do
way meaner and way better than they than they do
on that front. Something goes against us, that's nice. We're
still pressing the attack. You know, there's nothing in this
healthscape of an empire we have to abuy by, especially
not in the South.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, So if something doesn't go our way once, Okay, learn, regroup, redouble,
make sure you inflicted some costs, go out and inflict
more of them.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
They're not invincible, trust me.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, another gender is possible.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
You just have to go out and fight for exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, so I think on that note, David, where can
people find your work?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
You can find my stuff for trans News Network at
Transnews dot Network, including this most recent piece. And you
can find some of my local reporting as part of
the Ashville Blade co op at Ashville Blade dot com.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Awesome, and y'all at both the trans News Network and
the actual Blade, I've been doing a bunch of absolutely
incredible work. Thank you, and I encourage you, for one
to support both because ideally the function of journalism is
to be the targeting mechanism of the class and these
these are two groups of working class trans journalists.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
To do it and both organizations are worker run. I
should add yep, this.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Has been a get happen here, Go fight them.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
You can now find sources for it could Happen here,
listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
All Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Welcome Dick It Happened Here a podcast about things falling
apart and also sometimes about how claiming that you were
going to put things back together and then not doing
it makes things fall apart even worse. I am your host,
Mia Wong, and today we are going to be continuing
with part two of my interview with David Forbes, an
editor and journalist with the Trans News Network in the
(00:27):
Asheville Blade, about the history of the North Carolina Democratic
Parties progressive veneer over their agreement with Republican policies, and importantly,
how the Democratic Party's original response to the anti trans
bathroom bills from twenty sixteen paved the way for where
we are today. So enjoy. Let's talk about the original
(00:51):
bathroom bills, because I think there's some knowledge well, okay,
I don't know. It's been almost a decade. Yeah, so
I think people may have forgotten how this all start.
Is let's talk about the first bathroom bills, what happened,
and then how the Democrats kind of ensured that they
would stay in place.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Sure, so there is the big one everyone knows about
is HB two because it became kind of internationally famous
as the North Carolina bathroom Bill, and even I think
for folks who memories may have faded, it has come
up recently as kind of a benchmark, and often a
misinterpreted one. Is we're about to get into for how
far things have shifted, because on paper it looks like
(01:30):
this really horribly backfired, and in some ways it did.
Speaker 4 (01:34):
Initially.
Speaker 3 (01:35):
HB two was a bill that was kind of slapped
in last minute. It clearly drew from the larger anti
trans far right policy circles which North Carolin Republicans are
highly connected to. Those kind of Dems often kind of
view themselves their own little like institution, like where the
Democratic moderorate.
Speaker 4 (01:55):
It's like North northund Democrats have always been at their best.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
People of that ttuation when we talked about the Republicans
here were like, Okay, we're now in power, which they
were starting in twenty eleven. Let's try out this stuff
from ALEC, Let's try out this stuff from some obscure
right wing think tank. And that meant they were plugged
in when in the wake of Obergafell, and also in
North Carolina as well the year before, you'd had equal
(02:19):
marriage for that whole swath of the South was kind
of imposed by a federal court order or recognized by
federal court order. So they were like, Okay, this isn't working.
There is not just more. There is more de facto
on the ground popular acceptance of equal marriage. Now that's
not the wedge it was previously. So what do we
shift to? What we shift to? Trans people? And so
(02:41):
North caronl legislators very eager to try out far right policies.
The Caron GOP is far right even by Southern standards,
which is interesting because the state's very split as far
as like votes and demographics go. So twenty sixteens rolled
around four years earlier, the Dems had done the usual thing.
They'd run a super conservative, super pro business, white guy Democrat.
(03:03):
He got trounced by Pat McCrory, who was the former
mayor of Charlotte, and Rain was like, oh, I'm a moderate,
sensible Republican. I'm going to bounce out the legislature a
little bit. But unlike too many outside the region and
the state who kind of wrote a oka in North
Carolina just becoming this red state now like other Southern
states have, they knew their hole was actually really precarious.
Now think jerrymandered extensively, so extensively that like North Carolina
(03:29):
the same year as HB two pass stopped being recognized
as a democracy by the the policiers the study. As
a matter of fact, the district Carolina they did a
whole commentary later that year that these were the most
rigged districts, the most chairman districts they'd seen, not just
in the US, but anywhere in the world.
Speaker 4 (03:47):
So that is where we live. That's where we lived
for some time.
Speaker 3 (03:51):
But the governors like the statewide so he's in a
more precarious position, and they wanted a wedge issue in
their view to drive out conservative votes. They also hate
trans people and want to hurt us. So this HB
two said that trans people can't go into bathrooms unless
they use the one matching their birth certificate in any
(04:13):
state building in North Carolina.
Speaker 4 (04:15):
And this technically also.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Includes like local government buildings, includes like social services, it
includes like any educational setting pretty much. So this was
clearly a slab dash affair. They didn't even have like
an enforcement mechanism in there. But I did a few
other things too, I think people forget about, which is
it also stripped the ability of localities to make their
own minimum wage rules. So it was also an attack
(04:38):
on labor because those always go together and not unrelated.
Trans and queen people are only working class demographics, which
I don't think get setting up, and also essentially users
on reaction to Charlotte adding gender identity to its existing
non discrimination ordinance. There's old was a local one, but
in reality, you know, if chart had never done that,
(04:59):
they would have done a bill like this pretty shortly. Anyway,
it was kind of just the excuse. And they also
struck down all non discrimination ordinances across the state, like
local non discrimination ordinances. So this is a broad attack
with trans people as kind of the point of the spear,
as it were, like the ones most in the front lines.
Speaker 4 (05:19):
It's a familiar pattern.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
You go after trans rights, you're also going after broad
rights for any marginalized group because non discrimation stuff is
being struck down left and right, and also your attacking
labor yep. So you know, it really kind of set
the model for things to come. HB two sparks a
massive international backlash. I think the indestment was four hundred million.
(05:41):
The state lost four hundred million, as companies pulled out,
events pulled out. There was a boycott, a fairly effective one, honestly,
that was started as grassroots though gay inc Groups and
even like just random nonprofits, and some Democratic Party officials
later joined in on it. So the money being hemorrhage
left and right, McCrory's being turned into a national laughing stock,
(06:04):
if anything, is proving a rallying point for the other side.
Because twenty sixteen rolls around, and in a year where
Trump takes North Carolina and generally the Republicans do fairly
well throughout the South, even in a swing states like NC,
McCrory loses. He loses to the Attorney General, Roy Cooper
is a Democrat. Now, I would never say his prograins
(06:24):
we're about again some major betrayals he did. He was
more willing to say, at least perfunctory statements about trains
rights than any northbound Democratic politician as a statewide level
before and honestly since, including the current governor. And yeah,
he proceeded to win, so he gets in office. North
(06:51):
Carolina gentry are historically plenty fine with big A treatment,
but the Republicans had by this point broken one of
their cardinal rules.
Speaker 4 (06:57):
Which is they fucked with the money.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Yeah, because like the state was losing money, they were
losing business deals, corporate headquarters and stuff. And this is
a lot of what the status quo, very anti labour says.
Quote that North Tide Democrats and Republicans had generally both
supported in varying ways was in danger. And you know
some of them person who were losing money. So they
basically tell the Republicans in early twenty seventeen to knock
(07:21):
it off, like, Okay, you've gone far enough.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
It didn't work, you lost the election.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
They still do the Jerry manner had a lot of
power in the state legislature, but they didn't have the
governor's office anymore, so you know, repeal this like we're
getting too much BAP publicity. And what really escalated it
was basketball is kind of a religion in North Carolina,
especially college basketball, and the NCAA said, look, we'll pull
the tournament out of HB two is still in the books.
And at that point there became like these back and
(07:49):
forth sessions. Earlier in December, there was this compromise effort
where supposedly Charlotte would strike its non discrimination stuff on
its end.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
It was currently.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
Liket of legal challenge. They'd gone to court to fight
to uphold it. And this should have been a warning
sign the governor, Governor ELEC Cooper at that point broker
kind of this deal where okay, Charlotte, you take trains
people out of your non screaming short and insa of
your own accord and the state will repeal HB two.
Well that didn't happen. They did the first part, and
(08:19):
then the let's sae legislators were like, okay, well that's nice,
we're not doing anything about this. That should have been
a lesson about complying in the advance, but it didn't
really seem to take sadly, so HB two was sow
in the books by March, you know, March madness is
coming up and all that. And so they finally do
a repeal and this is still hailed as oh, look
(08:41):
like back in the day, like even Republicans, some Republicans
would like repeal a trans bill when it got this
big backlash. Their federal funding was being threatened as well
for the state. I was not like federal education funding
and all. That's not what happened though, And what happened
I think is actually was a lot more ominous and
a lot more revealing. What passed instead was honest a
second bathroom bill called HB one four to two or
(09:03):
HB two point zero, as a lot of activists and
queer folks in the ground transfer the Ground dubbed it.
And what this bill did was it technically took out
the bathroom ban, but it's put in a bunch of
byzantine provisions about who could use the bathroom wins, so
it would still take a court case for a trans
woman to go use the women's bathroom. It kept all
the anti labor stuff, and it kept all the non
(09:24):
discrimination stuff struck down for years, like you couldn't pass
local manuscration protections for years. And at this point the
pressure is mounting the Democratic Party for the first time
in most of a decade, their votes in the legislature
actually matter because the Republican they're split between kind of
the capitalists who are hate trains that we're using this
(09:44):
as a wedge issue and now the money's being fucked
with they're ready to repeal it, and some of the
others who are like, no, no, we really are dedicated to
hating trans people. Mistake can burn as long as trans
people's lives are made more miserable. So they have the
votes in their own caucus to pass this. So for
once DEM's had a lot of power and they could
have easily been like no floor or peel or nothing,
and they probably would have gotten it through. They did not.
(10:07):
They sided with the Republicans. They passed this mess that
essentially kept the status quo. It was just barely enough
for the NCAA, who even noted they even know their corporation.
Speaker 4 (10:17):
Basically they know it was.
Speaker 3 (10:18):
Reluctant that they were, you know, putting the tournament back
in NC, but they did. The governor knew. Governor democratic
governor signed it. I probably mentioned earlier. HB two passed
with two Democratic votes in the first place. This is
like not a new trend of this happening. Heck, anti
queer stuff even well before that would often pass with
Democratic support as well as Republican support, often be signed
(10:40):
by democratic governors, so this is not an entirely new thing.
And this is also a point where you can see
gay ink splitting a bit because gay ink did actually
have actually condemned HB two point zero, but once it
became passed, they either offered tempted statements or they backed down.
And so the US and from HB two wasn't okay.
(11:03):
Back in the day, you know, nine years ago, trans
rights used to be more of a consensus, even among
moderate conservatives, at least basic protections for it. And a
good example was how unpopular HBT was. It was repealed
under all this backlash. It did get a backlash, yeah,
but it wasn't really repealed. And as a matter of fact,
what the far right learned was that when it comes
(11:25):
down to it, the Democrats North Carolina, it turned out
elsewhere will fold if trans rights has made an issue.
Speaker 2 (11:32):
Yeah, and you know, and you can watch everything that
has happened since with trans rights has just been the
Democrats folding over and over and over again and getting
weaker and weaker language until we're in this place now,
you know, Like and I think the thing that is
a little bit different, is it Like you used to
have to like claim you had done something yeah about
(11:53):
the anti trans bill, and now you can just sign
it yeah, and it becomes law. And this is something
that has does played out across the coach, Like there
have been a lot of states where democratic governors have
signed anti trans bills, yes.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Or vita pro trans bills like in California. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
And you know even in states where like Pritzker, the
governor of Illinois, has been being held up as like
the big pro trans people I've seen. I see like
even trans leftists doing this. And you know, like there
are a lot of things in Illinois that are very
good for trans people because of the weird Pritzker corruption,
his sister is trans. And also the moment the government
was like, oh hey, we're gonna like sort of make
(12:29):
a big show of threatening like healthcare funding, Pritsker just
folded and let all these hospitals stop providing transcrir to youth,
even though it is literally a violation of Illinois like
of Illinois ANSI discrimination legislation.
Speaker 4 (12:40):
Yeah, they just back down and refuse to do it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
And the way that this starts is that there is
a gap between the rhetoric of someone like Pritzker being like, oh, no,
like we support trans rights. Trans rights are in an
important civil rights issue, and then you watch them like
allow a bunch of hospitals in Illinois to stop providing
care to trans kids. And the place where that ends
is more and more Democrats just straight up voting for
(13:04):
this stuff.
Speaker 3 (13:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:06):
And it's and the Democrats, you know, as you're talking
about with with HB two is like, you know, there
were there were Democratic votes on that one.
Speaker 3 (13:13):
Yeah, HB one four two especially, Yeah, the compromise, Billy,
but even HB too itself. Yeah, there were there were
Democrats who score that too.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:20):
And so this is this is I think the critical
part of this is that, like this stuff only can
happen with the support of the Democrats. And that's why
it's happening. It's because yes, because like and this is
this is something that's incredibly important right now. We're like
all of the ship that is happening, all these Republicans
are doing are hideously unpotty, like thirty percent approval ratings
across the board for like all of this just hideously
(13:44):
hideously hated. The only way it can happen is if
the Democrats go collaborationists inside with the Republicans, and that's
what they're doing now.
Speaker 4 (13:53):
Things always need whislims.
Speaker 2 (13:54):
Yeah, and they're relying on the image of resistance to
distract everyone from the fact that they're helping these policies
go through and if you want to stop them, you
have to stop them from collaborating.
Speaker 3 (14:14):
I think I also brings up kind of the third
element in this. You've got the bar always fascist, increasingly
fashist Republican Party. You've got the increasing collaborations Democratic Party,
and especially on queer and trains rights. You have gay
inc which, and I go into some examples in the piece.
After HB two point zero they put out some preferrenctory statements,
but then they turned to gatekeeping, and the ensuing years
(14:36):
they very consistently tried to stifle any activism that was
more radical or more principled to try to get this
stuff off the books, and especially if it came to
holding Democratic officials feet the fire. I literally have an
example in the article that I was physically therefore and
witnessed where a director of the canvass and Equality sees
(14:56):
the mic as it was being passes in candidates to
answer a stronger question and from some transactivists and change
the question to something that didn't actually put any pressure
on them at all, like just kind of absurd, petty
stuff like that. But the coom of effect has been that,
you know, they turned to thinking about their political careers
and their fundraising. And when push comes to shove again
(15:18):
and again, they've shown they won't hold Democrats' feet to
the fire. If anything, they will tell the Trains people
trying to hold their feet the fire to shut up.
So if you know that the lobby, the official lobby
that's supposed to, you know, ostensibly, on some level stand
up for some mild version of trains and queer rights,
will never give someone any shit for breaking ranks. Not
(15:39):
even like we condemn officials so and so and their
bigotry or whatever more we are sorely disappointed in or
anyone of the boiler play things. They won't even go
that far. That's too far for them. So you have
Democrats collaborating and a gay ink structure that has taken
the energy and funding out of lave of the queer activists,
(16:00):
but will absolutely will not fight when Democrats are involved.
So if you're fascist, all you have to do is
get some Democrats involved.
Speaker 4 (16:07):
Yeah, and that's that's how you give VICHI friends Like
that's yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:11):
And honestly, this is it's a question I put to
folks because you know, look, I'm honestly dealing with the
North crownd Democrats. Is one of the things that made
me an anarchist. So yeah, so it's you know, I've
not had any faith in them for a very very
long time. But for folks that you know, kind of
do put a little more energie into electoral processes, I
just you know, a questions the piece I think are
(16:32):
worth asking them, Like what's the point of people who
are just going to support your enemies?
Speaker 4 (16:37):
Yeah? What's the point of.
Speaker 3 (16:38):
People that you elect, maybe even like get out you
know and dock doors or whatever to get elected, who
then don't do the one thing they're elected to do?
And God asked too for some of the folks who
support some of these gay ink ords, I was like,
if they won't fight, now, what is the point of them? Yeah,
why do they deserve any support from us as a community?
(17:00):
Or is it far past time to look to other alternatives?
There was only lesson hbto taught as well, which is
if you want even the most die hard bigot to
start losing their nerve, to attack their money and their power,
and then you don't stop if so, say all you
have to compromise with a pragmatic solution, You ignore them,
(17:21):
laugh in their faces, do whatever. But you keep pressting
them because that was their thing. HQ too, there was
a really effective campaign to boycott and it did have
a substantial effect. You know, the lovely weapon of vicious
mockery really came in handy, and even the rulgas didn't
like becoming a national laughing stock, so there were less
about how stuff could be fought as well. And the
(17:44):
more radical history in North Carolina. You know, there are
there are quer radicals here and you know, my city
was hit by a massive hurricane last year and honestly,
it was a lot of US radicals getting out in
the ground that kept things from getting even worse. And
you know, and just folks on the ground pitching in
outside of government structures, not waiting for the official nonprofits
(18:04):
who were either devastated or had not planned for this.
So there are other alternatives, you know, and or heck
that the hell.
Speaker 4 (18:13):
I have to remember, I could curse here.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
That the fact that civil rights we the low attention
has gone to sitidence and there was a lot of
organizing in those movements.
Speaker 4 (18:22):
It's a lot more Miltont than folks.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Remember that also went along three decades of riots and
cities throughout the state before the old order even began.
Speaker 4 (18:32):
To budge a little bit.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
And the lesson from that North caround Democrats and North
Caunta status quo. And I see throughout the South and
throughout the country it only budges even starts to move
when the cost of continuing the way it is become
far too high.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, and our job is to impose that cost. Yes,
because if we don't impose that cost, they're going to
keep pushing and they are going to continue to write
us out of existence until they have the guns to
do it.
Speaker 4 (18:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (18:59):
And on that is that is a mentality I think
a lot more people need to need to absorb. And
I think one of the lessons from you know, fighting
the far right at some points for my entire like
adult life basically even a little bit before then in
North Carolina is that the more you fight than the
weaker they are. But also, and this is this is
(19:21):
something one of the more experience transfernds us South I
know has emphasized, you won't always win, you can always
inflict a cost. And I think a little more like
thinking outside of elections, a little more bloody minded determination
can really come in handy of the sense of like
if our enemies are like, Okay, court rules against us,
We're still pressing the attack. Okay, election goes against us,
(19:45):
We're still pressing the attack. I think we can do
way meaner and way better than they than they do
on that front. Something goes against us, that's nice. We're
still pressing the attack. You know, there's nothing in this
healthscape of an empire we have to abuy by, especially
not in the South.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:02):
Yeah, So if something doesn't go our way once, Okay, learn, regroup, redouble,
make sure you inflicted some costs, go out and inflict
more of them.
Speaker 4 (20:10):
They're not invincible, trust me.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
Yeah, another gender is possible.
Speaker 4 (20:14):
You just have to go out and fight for exactly.
Speaker 2 (20:17):
Yeah, so I think on that note, David, where can
people find your work?
Speaker 3 (20:23):
You can find my stuff for trans News Network at
Transnews dot Network, including this most recent piece. And you
can find some of my local reporting as part of
the Ashville Blade co op at Ashville Blade dot com.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
Awesome, and y'all at both the trans News Network and
the actual Blade, I've been doing a bunch of absolutely
incredible work. Thank you, and I encourage you, for one
to support both because ideally the function of journalism is
to be the targeting mechanism of the class and these
these are two groups of working class trans journalists.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
To do it and both organizations are worker run. I
should add yep, this.
Speaker 2 (21:01):
Has been a get happen here, Go fight them.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
It could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 4 (21:18):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 1 (21:20):
You can now find sources for it could Happen here,
listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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