How To Save America

Now that you're scared, let's talk about how to save America.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
The first several episodes of this podcast have gotten a
more enthusiastic reaction than I could have ever guessed. I'm
very grateful for that. My motivation for doing the show
comes out of a very deep fear I feel towards
where this country is headed and what might happen if
our present destructive course is not somehow arrested and averted.
So I'm glad that this has gone the podcast equivalent
of viral. I'm proud that so many people have reached

(00:24):
out to tell me the impact it's had on them.
But I'm also troubled by some things, and I hope
you'll indulge me in a little bit of creative narcissism
as I analyze my own work, because the success thus
far of it could happen here has also given me
a very clear understanding of some of its flaws. For
one thing, it's become very clear to me that this
show has terrified an awful lot of people. To some extent.

(00:45):
That was my goal from the beginning. I've been scared
about this for a long time, and I wanted political
moderates and liberals to see the dangers I see. But
a number of people have reached out to me and
expressed feelings of hopelessness and an ear panicked feeling that
there is nothing they can do to stop This was
my plan to build to an episode about, you know,
things people could do to help make the Second American

(01:05):
Civil War less likely and in this series on an
optimistic note. Uh, there's certainly more than a little bit
of narcissism in that as well. But from a storytelling standpoint,
it makes sense to keep building tension right up until
the end and then close out on a hopeful note. However,
this is not just an exercise in storytelling. It's a
work of journalism, and given the kind of emotional impact
podcasts have on their listeners, I think it would be

(01:26):
irresponsible to go that long without providing some suggestions for
how folks might stop all of this. There's more darkness
to come in this series, I will promise you that,
but I've decided this little mini episode should act as
an intermission to provide some practical advice on how to
make everything I've talked about so far a little bit
less likely to happen. Now. The key to that is this,
we have to get better at building solidarity across our

(01:48):
political divide. I want to make a couple of things
clear before we get deeper into this. There is a
right way and a wrong way to foster communication between
the right and the left. Many primetime television journalistic hats
than the way to do this is to provide a
platform to hate mongering nationalists like Candice Owens. Others think
debate is the sav for all of our wounds. NPR
recently published an article titled keeping it Civil. How to

(02:11):
talk politics without letting things turn ugly now. NPR shared
this article on Twitter, and the first response was from
my friend Molly. She said, simply, no others shared the
same sentiment. Molly is a fan of my work, as
I am a fan of her activism, and I understand
her reaction. She was deeply intimately impacted by the violence
at the Unite the Right rally in two thousand seventeen,

(02:31):
and she has literal Nazis threatened to kill her on
a near daily basis. She's one of the people I
was talking about in the first episode of this series
when I mentioned that for some of us, the Second
American Civil War has already started. So I want to
make it clear that I'm not saying The solution to
all of this is for us to have polite debates
with people we disagree with. I think debate is useless.

(02:52):
That's why assholes like Stephen Crowder and Ben Shapiro spend
their lives trying to have public debates where they can
destroy people they disagree with and of course sell more
leftist tears mugs. In fact, I think some of the
most dangerous people in our society right now, the people
lurching us ever closer to bloody, bullet riddled calamity, are
fools with large platforms who provide a bullhorn for the

(03:12):
most hateful among us and justify it by saying that
they're just having conversations. Joe Rogan and Logan Paul come
most immediately to mind. Both men recently hosted Alex Jones
on their popular podcast and YouTube channel, respectively. Rogan has
continued to platform Jones after the latter repeatedly threatened to
expose and destroy him in a series of Unhinged Info

(03:32):
Wars rants. Joe Rogan does this because he considers Alex
Jones a friend and because he has built a career
off of hosting unhinged conspiracy theorists. Rogan paints himself is
just a simple, open minded guy willing to listen to anyone.
I think if he were here right now, he'd say
he doesn't see the harm and just talking to someone
with different opinions. Logan Paul would probably admit, if pressed,

(03:53):
that he hosted Alex Jones because he thought it was
funny and because he saw how incredibly popular Rogan's recent
five hour podcast with Alex Jones was. As of the
writing of this episode, that podcast has been watched nearly
thirteen million times on YouTube alone. Thankfully, Paul's platforming of
Jones was less productive. That YouTube video was at around
four hundred and fifty three thousand views right now, but

(04:14):
it still helped introduce Alex Jones to a much younger demographic,
some of whom will follow him back to in full Wars.
Speaking of infull Wars, Within a couple of days of
that Logan Paul appearance, Alex Jones dedicated the better part
of an episode of his show to an unhinged rant
against the drag Queen's Story Hour. Now. This is an
advocacy organization all over the US and in several other

(04:35):
countries based around having drag queens read story books to
kids at local libraries. The goal is to introduce these
kids to the idea that queer people exist in the
world and are members of their communities too, like anyone else.
At least that's how most sane people interpret it. To
Alex Jones, it's part of a violent conspiracy to rape
and murder children. These drag queens stand ins for all

(04:55):
queer people are just trying to get children used to
their presence so they don't fight back when they're abduct
it and ritually murdered. That's an inductee right there. That's
rim Field, a demon posing as a woman, a woman
that gives life, that nurtures babies, And these poor babies.
The last thing they see when the inner hell is

(05:18):
men dressed as women. The last thing they see is
they're hacked up and torn into pieces, and as their
blood is slobbingly delict into the mouths, and no men
will stand against them. And unless we convince ourselves that,
no one really listens to Alex Jones when he says

(05:40):
this crazy ship. Here's a clip from later in the episode,
when a caller who identifies himself as a cop talks
about his desire to murder drag queens without consequence. One
thing you say that I like is you don't need
orders from headquarters, well as of the civilian, a parent
or a legal guardian doesn't need the police. In my eyes,
I've being the cop to go to school and grab

(06:00):
that drag queen and drag him out the parking lot
and dispose of them. If you're in that school and
you're in kids, and somebody's not stopping it, I should
have the legal right to go in and and put
you down. And we're already percussions. Thanks to Dan from
the Knowledge Fight podcast for both of those clips. So
I think I've made it clear at this point that
there is absolutely a wrong way to talk to the

(06:21):
other side of the aisle. We do not need to
talk to Alex Jones or Miloianopolis or Richard Spencer or
Candice Owens. Ben Shapiro does not need to be debated
about his racist claim that eight hundred million Muslims are
dangerous radicals. None of these people deserve to be platformed
or debated. They need to be ignored. The people we
need to talk to the people. We cannot ignore our

(06:43):
fellow citizens. They are people who may have fallen under
the spells of some of these demagogues or of Trump himself,
but many of them are fundamentally decent human beings acting
based on their imperfect knowledge of the world. In episode
two of this series, I talked about the revenge of
rural America. I tried and perfectly, I'm sure, to make
the point that these people have legitimate grievances before detailing

(07:04):
how they could bring this country to its knees if
pushed far enough. I think it's important for liberals to
understand this because a lot of the rhetoric I've seen
from scorn Clinton supporters towards conservative America is extremely dangerous.
Here's one example. In March of two thousand nineteen, the
news dropped that an Ohio g implant was shutting down
Trumpet campaign in the area on the promise that he

(07:25):
would keep this factory open. Many liberals reacted jubilantly at
seeing their political enemies take a hit. The first comment
I found on one article about the story read quote
to all of the union members that placed an X
beside that nazi bastard's name, you got what you deserved.
Since Trump's upset victory, there's been a lot of talk
on the left about eliminating the electoral College. Now, I'm

(07:47):
not going to defend that institution because it's just super dumb,
But I don't think people who urge its destruction really
think about the implications of what they're suggesting. Yes, it
is unjust that three million more people voted for Hillary
Clinton and she's still laws, But it's also unjust to
say fuck it, we enlightened city dwellers should get to
decide everything for rural Americans and funk what they want
if they disagree with us. That impulse right there will

(08:10):
lead us to a civil war as surely as anything else. Now,
the good news is that the vast, vast majority of
rural Americans don't want to become violent insurgents. They don't
want to kill you. They do want their world to
stop falling apart. They want to stop being ignored and
written off as hicks by people in the cities. More
than anything, they want to have hope for the future.

(08:32):
There are many committed, bone deep Trump supporters out in
rural America, but those people are outnumbered by the folks
who just voted for him because they saw no hope
for politics as usual. To deal with the crippling opioid
problems in their communities, the collapse of rural infrastructure, and
the utter lack of hope they see on the faces
of their children. That sense of terror at what comes
next is actually one area where we can all find

(08:52):
common ground. I know this because I've seen it on
the faces of many urban liberals and leftists as we
digest the latest heart wrenching story about climate change or
read about the concentration camps our government has built in
El Paso. Once we start talking, we may find that
we have more points we can agree on than we thought.
We should not be debating each other. We should be
focusing on finding solutions to the problems that we can

(09:13):
all see. Climate change is actually a good example. Eight
and ten Americans believe the climate is changing, bringing with
it more extreme weather conditions. This includes more than sixty
percent of Republicans. A healthy majority of Americans consider climate
change a serious problem. Just this spring, South Dakota, Nebraska,
and southern Minnesota experienced apocalyptic mud slides after unprecedented spring rains.

(09:36):
The mud did billions of dollars in damage and obliterated
many local economies. These mud slides in the north and Midwest,
echo equally apocalyptic mud slides experienced by Californians in early
two thousand eighteen. Solidarity is a word with a long
and confusing ideological pedigree. It crept into popular political discourse
in the eighteen forties, as socialism began to take off

(09:57):
around the world and utopian experiments where launched throughout the West.
By nine hundred, the concept of solidarity was so widely
understood that it would be fair to call it the
global cornerstone of progressive politics. Around the turn of the century,
the great sociologist Emil Durkheim explained, quote, the sense of
solidarity is the foundation of morality, since it is necessary

(10:17):
to show the young that human beings are by no
means isolated within themselves, but are part of a totality
from which they cannot be separated other than in their thoughts,
that society lives and operates in them and represents the
best aspect of their own. Nature. Of fascist political success

(10:44):
relies wholly on separation. The people who want to raise
the temperature in our society and provoke open, bloody violence
between left and right thrive when the rest of us
isolate ourselves. Their ideas metastasized when rural Americans hide on
their farms and in their small towns, and urban Americans
preached to each other from the safety of their ideological bubbles.
A two thousand fourteen Pew survey found that thirty one

(11:06):
percent of consistent conservatives and forty four percent of consistent
liberals have muted or unfriended a follower based on political disagreements.
During the two thousand sixteen election, seventy five percent of
Clinton voters did not have a single Trump supporter in
their network. More than half of Trump and Clinton voters
reported not regularly discussing politics with someone who disagreed with them.
Only about twenty percent of voters on either side had

(11:28):
truly mixed social networks and discussed politics regularly with people
they didn't agree with. When we don't talk to each
other at all, we miss opportunities for solidarity. I've been
fortunate enough to spend a lot of my life as
a leftist in deeply read territory, so I'd like to
expand on another opportunity for solidarity. The end of the
billionaire Class. Dan Riffle, Alexandria Accacio Cortes's senior policy adviser

(11:51):
made the news recently when he changed his Twitter name
to every billionaire is a policy failure. Now, this is
not a statement you're likely to get most conservatives on
board with if you phrase it that way, But when
you get into the meat of what Accassio, Cortes and
other Democrats suggest in order to reduce income inequality, there's
actually less daylight between right and left than you might suspect.

(12:11):
Seventy six percent of registered voters want the wealthiest Americans
to pay more in taxes. Sixty one percent of us
support the sort of wealth tax proposed by Elizabeth Warren,
which boosts the taxes on those with a net worth
of over fifty million dollars. Forty five percent of Americans
support Alexandria Acasio Cortes's seventy percent top marginal tax rate
on people who make more than ten million dollars. Across

(12:34):
the political spectrum, Americans increasingly agree that the rich are
not paying their fair share and that they ought to.
Hammer and simple flags and talk of guillotines will not
convert anyone to supporting a higher marginal tax rate, but
you might see some success in talking to them about
the Sackler family. The Sacklers are the billionaire clan behind
Perdue Pharmaceuticals. Starting in nineteen ninety five and running right

(12:55):
up until the present day, they conducted a fraudulent advertising
campaign to hide the addictiveness of their most profitable product, OxyContin,
and get it into the bodies of as many Americans
as possible. Because of the Sacklers, opiate pain killers went
from something only the seriously ill were prescribed to something
commonly handed out for the kind of chronic pain they
do not help with. As a result, more than two

(13:16):
hundred thousand Americans have died of prescription pain killer overdoses.
Whole towns in rural America have been decimated, in some
cases nearly wiped out by a plague of addiction. And
while small town Americans have died in their thousands, the
Sacklers have increased their net worth from tens of millions
of dollars to around fourteen billion dollars. They've spent a
tidy chunk of that Monday funding a number of radical

(13:37):
anti Muslim organizations dedicated to stoking right wing fears of Islam.
I don't know about you, but I like the idea
of fighting a war against the billionaires through the ballot
box alongside conservatives more than I like the idea of
fighting conservatives with bullets while the Sacklers and their ilk
fleeted compounds in New Zealand. There are other opportunities for
cross political solidarity. Some of them are nestled in the

(13:58):
things that seem most frightening about our current political climate.
In episode one, I talked about the increased prevalence of
left wing gun advocacy groups. This can be seen as
a proto insurgency situation, something that leads to more fear
and division and eventually violence, but it could also be
another opportunity to find common ground. I've spent a lot
of time in Los Angeles gun stores. There's some of
the only places in this city where you're regularly run

(14:20):
into vocal Republicans. I also recently went out to a
shooting range with a John Brown Gun Club, a leftist
gun organization. In both places and surrounded by both groups
of people, I heard a lot of the same complaints
about California's confusing and often unproductive gun laws. In the
weeks since the first episode of this podcast launch, dozens
upon dozens of liberals and leftists have reached out to
me asking if they should buy firearms. Many told me

(14:43):
they were already in the process of buying their first guns.
I realized that these people on the left were starting
to feel something that many on the right have felt
for a while, the desire to arm up in the
face of an uncertain future. I do worry that all
these guns might wind up being used in violence, absolutely
I do. But I also have hope at the presence
of a left wing gun culture might foster some productive
conversations across the political chasm, because the current conversations we're

(15:07):
having about guns in this country are not productive. This
is embodied well by a message Eric Swawell, a Democratic
representative from California, recently received from a furious gun nuts.
Eric's all, well, here's a little duty for you. Thirty
round clip. You're all gonna drop and I'll give up anymore.
Your mother, I think you've got some new young motherfucker

(15:30):
going to take over the constitution. You want to go
to war, We're going to war, and you're going to
be a mother. Now. That's obviously terrifying and fucked up,
and I'm afraid that reperative. Swallow's response only made it worse.
Immediately after playing that audio, he played this text on screen.

(15:51):
We recently passed background check bills in the House. We
must ban and buy back assault weapons next. Now, this
probably sounds reasonable to many of you, and I'm not
trying to talk you out of whatever your views on
this issue are. But I also see it as another escalation,
taking this nuts violent rhetoric and giving him exactly what
he wants, a left wing boogeyman coming for his guns.

(16:11):
Of American households own a gun, and the A R
fifteen is by far the most common single firearm in
this nation. Gun ownership in America is on a significant
upward trend. After dropping form much of the nineteen nineties,
it's ticked steadily higher in the twenty first century. Drawing
a hard political line by saying fuck you, We're going
to take your weapons is not nearly as bad as
threatening murder, obviously, and I'm not trying to equate the two,

(16:33):
but it is not a productive step forward either, because
most gun owners are not literal madman like the guy
who threatened. Representative Swallow of n r A members support
comprehensive background checks. Not only is that number nice, it
shows widespread support for an into unregulated face to face sales,
what some pundits referred to as the gun show loophole.
Seventy eight percent of non n r A gun owners

(16:56):
like myself support universal background checks. Now when we tell
about other gun control measures like gun violence restraining orders,
raising the age required to purchase firearms, and implementing waiting
periods in more states, things get more controversial. But still
half of American gun owners support a national firearms Purchased database.
There is clearly room for conversation and for real progress

(17:17):
on these issues. The n r A and certain politicians
stand the most extreme versions of their respective policies, but
most American voters, including gun owning voters, can be convinced
to support more nuanced policies that still have a real
impact on gun violence. I've been shooting since I was
seven years old, and I own what most people would
describe as a funkload of firearms, and I can tell

(17:37):
you that much of the frustration rational gun owners feel
towards politicians like Representative Swallow comes from the fact that
most gun control laws are written by people who don't
understand firearms. Some laws make objective sense to me, waiting
periods are sane and sensible. I can get behind banning
people under twenty one from purching semi automatic weapons, But
then there's California's assault weapons ban. Most liberals probably think

(17:58):
it means I can't own air fifteens or a K
forty sevens, but I own both in the city of
Los Angeles. The largest means that I've had to stick
as silly and very easily removable plastic flipper on the
pistol grip of my rifle, so it doesn't technically count
as a pistol grip. This is part of why I
think more firearms ownership among the left could lead to
more effective gun control if the people writing those laws

(18:19):
know what they're talking about, and if gun owners on
the right see broad support for a reasonable interpretation of
the Second Amendment. If they see a lot of people
on the other side of the aisle also own firearms
and are trying to take their guns, they might be
more open to talking about common sense gun control policies.
I think one of Barack Obama's biggest mistakes during his
first presidential campaign was referring to rural Americans as people

(18:40):
who cling to their guns and Bibles. If you live
in a major urban area, don't regularly go to church,
and have never fired a gun. Obama's words probably rang true.
They jelled with what you believed, especially about rural Americans.
But think about how those words would feel from the
perspective of someone whose town has an unemployment rate more
than double the national average. Someone who has lost multiple
friends and family members to opiate addiction. Someone for whom

(19:02):
the center of their social life is church on Sunday.
Someone from whom access to a firearm is the best
way to get affordable meat. Someone who's best memories of
their granddad, father, or uncle involved learning how to shoot.
To that person, Barack Obama's words sounded less like an
apt diagnosis and more like a slap to the face.
We don't all right. None of this is an apologia

(19:32):
for the literal Nazis among the right wing people like
that gang of fascists arrested in Florida with a rocket
launcher earlier this year. Fuck those people. But most conservatives
are not those people. And if we can reach out
to them in solidarity over the problems we share, if
they can be shown they have cause and pain in
common with poor people, in inner city America. If they
can see that the socialists yelling about billionaires are pissed

(19:53):
at the same people whose poison pills killed their mom, well,
that presents a path forward, and to be honest, it's
the only path I can see that isn't drenched in blood.
So this brings us to the question of what you,
the listener, can start doing right now to help with this.
The bad actors in our society, people like doctor Jordan Peterson,
don't want you to do anything. Dr Peterson, who was

(20:15):
also platformed into the mainstream by Joe Rogan, says this quote.
The proper way to fix the world isn't to fix
the world. There's no reason to assume that you're even
up to such a task. But you can fix yourself.
You'll do no one any harm by doing so, and
in that matter, at least you will make the world
a better place. I think that's horseship. Self improvement is
all well and good, but we are heading towards a

(20:35):
gaping precipice of murder right now. The world and the
country needs you to get out there and try to
unfunck this nation more than it needs you to clean
your room and do sit ups. Martin Luther King Junior
cheated on his wife. Mahatma Gandhi was a racist with
a terrible temper. Both men made the world a measurably
better through their activism. You don't have to be perfect
to help build a more perfect world. So what do

(20:58):
I recommend? What can you do right now? If you
live in Oregon, I'd suggest volunteering and donating to the
Rural Organizing Project. The r o P evolved out of
a fight against a rural far right political insurgency based
around anti gay politics and turned into an aggressive counter
messaging campaign aimed at de radicalizing rural conservatives and helping
to show them areas like environmental protection and an opposition

(21:20):
to foreign wars where they agree with their progressive urban cousins.
Another group you might consider donating to or volunteering with
is Light upon Light. They focus on de radicalizing extremists
of all types. They currently have a go fund me
set up that is badly in need of support. In
episode two, I talked about the role literal neo Nazis
and other such violent criminals play in raising the temperature

(21:41):
high enough to allow for a civil war. Light upon
Light in other groups with similar missions, like Life After Hate,
dedicate themselves to lowering that temperature. Their work is important.
It buys all of us more time to fix the
underlying causes of this budding civil war. If you have
emergency medical experience, you might consider volunteering your time time
with Remote Area Medical. This is a volunteer medical charity

(22:03):
that provides healthcare options to people in impoverished, underserved rural communities.
They are not a political group, but the work they
do is invaluable, and letting rural Americans know they aren't
forgotten or abandoned by the rest of us, that too,
lowers the temperature. Another important way to lower the temperature
is education, connecting people to good information about the world
to push back against the bullshit pedled by the Alex

(22:25):
Joneses and Joe's Rogan of the world. Many small, impoverished
rural towns lack convenient access to libraries. Of rural Americans
say they have not read a book in the last year,
compared to twenty three percent of city dwellers. Bookmobiles exist
to fight back against this problem. Now, the number of
active bookmobiles has declined in recent years, but that trend

(22:46):
seems to be changing, and you can be a part
of that by donating money or by volunteering your time
to create a book mobile of your own. Mutual Aid
Disaster Relief is a nationwide volunteer organization geared towards supporting
disaster survivors in the immediate term with food and medical aid,
and in the long term through education on things like permaculture.
Their motto is solidarity not charity, and they represent a

(23:08):
method of spreading leftist principles and building class consciousness through
something that works a hell of a lot better than
handing out pamphlets direct action. Thanks to climate change, nightmarish
natural disasters are only going to grow more common in
the coming years. If you are someone who has been
deeply worried by the things I've talked about on this podcast,
you should really consider volunteering with Mutual Aid Disaster Relief.

(23:29):
Not only can the actions of a group like this
help to de radicalize and lower the temperature in parts
of the country, but if fighting does spark off, it
will be handy to already be in contact with a
group of activists who have practical experience dealing with calamity.
And then, of course there's political action. I don't think
it's hyperbolic to say that the election will be the
most important election of our lifetimes, and may in fact

(23:50):
be the most important election in this nation's history. Even
a narrow Democratic victory could be disastrous, as it would
give President Trump an opportunity to deny the legitimacy of
his defeat. We will not insure a healthy margin of
victory and reduce the odds of a violent right wing
insurgency just by preaching to our bubbles about how much
we hate Trump. We need to get out in rural
communities and talk to these people, like Leslie Cockburn did.

(24:14):
In two thousand eighteen, Leslie was the Democratic candidate in
Virginia's fifth district. She did much of her campaigning in
rural and small town Virginia, talking to conservatives whose minds
were not closed to the possibility of voting for a Democrat. Now,
Leslie did not win her election, but that doesn't mean
her outreach and the outreach of her campaign's workers and
volunteers was useless. She lost by under seven points. For comparison,

(24:37):
the Democratic candidate in two thousand sixteen in Virginia's fifth
district lost by seventeen points. Leslie's defeat is evidence of
serious progress. While she was campaigning, she said this to
the Intercept quote, if you talk to people in these
rural areas, you find out that there are a huge
number of very what I call just mainstream, old fashioned Democrats.
It's simple basic. They believe in a living way age,

(25:00):
they believe in collective bargaining. They believe in decent health
care for everyone. I think a lot of people listening
to this episode we're probably surprised by the fact that
most conservatives now accept the reality of climate change finally,
and that most gun owners actually support more gun control regulations.
In the same way, many Republicans are shocked to realize
how many liberals and leftists are devoutly religious, own firearms,

(25:22):
or agree that raising taxes on gasoline and middle income
Americans is a dumb idea. There's quite a lot of
evidence that Democrats and Republicans are very, very bad at
understanding what the other people on the other side of
the aisle, not the politicians, but the people look like
and believe. A few research center Pole last year backs
this up. It found that Republicans estimated LGBT people made

(25:44):
up thirty eight percent of the Democratic Party actual number
six percent, and that Democrats estimated forty four percent of
Republicans made more than a quarter of a million dollars
a year actual number two percent. Five thirty eight summarized
the research by saying, in short, the parties in our
heads are not the parties in real life. The question
everyone hearing this should ask is this, if we're getting

(26:04):
all this basic stuff wrong about the other side, what
else might we be missing. Is it possible that a
lot of this division, which seems to be inching inexorably
closer to violence, is the result of bad actors in
the media and shiphead politicians rather than truly insurmountable visions
of the world. I want to be clear here. I'm
not saying that, say, racism and anti LGBT bigotry on

(26:25):
the right is not a problem. Nor am I saying
that there aren't political disagreements in our country where there
isn't room for compromise. But there are things we can
agree on and other things we can compromise on, And
if we work on those things without compromising things like
trans rights, racial justice, or abortion, we might be able
to build enough goodwill to reduce some of this pressure.
Working together to say, tax billionaires and fight the opiate

(26:47):
crisis and reduce the impact of climate change doesn't just
help with those problems. It helps to quench the hatreds
that have been building for years. It might stop us
from going over the edge. I think it's worth a shop,
and I know it's better than shooting h I'm Robert
Evans and I'm just exhausted from reading all of that.

(27:07):
You can find me on Twitter at I right, okay.
You can find this show on Twitter at happen here pod,
and you can find the show online at it could
happen here pod dot com. Our music, as always, is
from Four Fists