It Could Happen Here Weekly 127

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Al Zone Media. Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I
wanted to let you know this is a compilation episode.
So every episode of the week that just happened is
here in one convenient and with somewhat less ads package
for you to listen to in a long stretch if
you want. If you've been listening to the episodes every
day this week, there's going to be nothing new here

(00:22):
for you, but you can make your own decisions.

Speaker 2 (00:26):
Either snow nor rain, nor heat nor darkness can stop
the Persian Courier Service. Welcome to Dick it Out here,
a podcast about postal services. Who reasked the question can
the American capitalist class finally stop the American post Office?
I'm your host, Mio Long and with me to talk
about what is going on with the post office, what's

(00:46):
going on with the post office unions, and yeah, how
things are going downhill for the noble people who carry
your mail. Is Tommy Espinoza, who's a union steward for
the National Association of Letter Carriers to welcome to the show.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
Thank you so much for having me, Thank you so
much for giving us the mail care dollars, the male
carriers a platform to stand on.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, I'm really I'm really happy to you and I'm
really happy to get to talk to you about this.
So I think the place we should start is with
a bunch of very very weird stuff in how labor
law works. So, Okay, for like most people in the
United States, you have a fatally protected right to strike
if you have a union. That is not true for

(01:32):
federal employees. That is especially not true for members of
the Post Office, and that is a real issue because
the government has decided that, like, yeah, I know, all
these people who do vital service are not allowed to
go on strike and it absolutely sucks. Yeah, So I
think this gets into sort of where I want to start,

(01:56):
which is with the sort of history of the National
Association of Life Carriers, a union that is not allowed
to strike, and how sort of weird that is. So yeah,
I was wondering if you could talk a bit about
sort of the origins of the union and what effect
that has had on how organizing works or doesn't work.

Speaker 3 (02:16):
Yeah, the right to strike has been a rather divisive topic.
I'm sure you're familiar with unions and just generally people
on our side of our side of politics to be
infighting a lot I shouldn't come to a surprise.

Speaker 4 (02:37):
So in nineteen sixty nine.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
Just over fifty years ago, the salary for postal workers
was under two dollars an hour. People were working months
straight with no days off, and those were close to
twelve hour days, And so these postal workers at the
time qualified for welfare and decided in nine teen seventy

(03:01):
to go on strike despite it being illegal. This conversation
is not new. It was illegal then, it's illegal now.
And I do want to be crystal clear here. I
am not advocating for a strike that would also be
against the law, and we don't advocate for anything that's
against the law. What I do want to advocate for

(03:25):
is the right to strike, because being quasi federal, there's
a lot of limitations in what the NAOC and the
general postal unions are able to do. In total, there
are nine bargaining agreements and seven unions within the Post Office,
some of which are the manager's unions, so take that

(03:48):
as it is. Yet, on top of not being able
to strike, none of our money that we collect as
union does can be used for lobbying purposes, so they
can't support a single candidate or any of the parties involved.
We have a separate fund for that with the NALC

(04:08):
called the Letter Carrier's Political Fund, to try and circumvent
the restrictions that are put on there. And as a
result of that, it's like we're fighting with our hands
tied behind our back. We are unable to organize effectively.
Our union leadership seems to be afraid of protests and

(04:29):
picketing for fear that it'll be misconstrued or labeled as
a strike, and they're I think generally afraid of public opinion.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
Yeah, that's a debilitating set of conditions because you've effectively
taken away sort of the two major tools that you know,
I mean unions of basically across all political stripes used, right,
You've taken away the ability to strike. You've taken away
the ability to use your due's money to influence actions.
So this immediately means you've taken away the tool that

(05:03):
sort of Milton unions use, which strikes, and you've taken
away the tools that more conservative unions use, which is
buying attempting to buy politicians. And then also your leadership
is like we can't strike, I mean, we can't protest
because someone might think it's a strike and the public
might commenitus, and it's like that that doesn't seem I
don't know, it really seems like it's like it's not
only have you tied both hands behind your back, you've

(05:25):
like tied them behind your back to your legs and
you're now rolling around on the ground.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
Right, And to talk about what happens when we push
past all of these barriers and just do it anyways?
You know, in March nineteen seventy, two hundred and ten
thousand postal workers defied law, defied the general leadership of
the time. And it all started in New York where

(05:50):
people clocked in and at nine o'clock they just walked out. Soon,
let's see, it was Cleveland, Chicago, Los Angeles. The nation
joined very shortly after. Once it broke the news that
they were calling for a national strike. Nixon called in

(06:11):
the National Guard to try and deliver mail, and the
National Guard had no idea what they were doing. There's
an amazing video that I'll try and send you afterwards.
It's just the National Guard at our cases where we
sort the mail. An interviewer is asking him, do you

(06:31):
think that you're doing a good job? It's just like, no,
it's just some kid, you know. And don't get me wrong,
I'm just some guy. But you need the training, you
need to know what you're doing. And it's not something
that anyone can pick up in a day, but it's
a job that anyone can do. But yeah, for the

(06:52):
first time, the mail had stopped, and that won us
collective bargaining binding arbitration, which is a process that I
think most people within unions know what they mean, but
to explain it, arbitration is what happens when our parties
cannot agree on a settlement for a grievance, and eventually

(07:15):
we call in a third party, an arbitrator to decide
for us, and those are generally lawyers. On top of
binding arbitration, it gave us a new pay scale and
set in motion.

Speaker 4 (07:28):
I think over.

Speaker 3 (07:30):
It's got to be hundreds of raises between the colas
and the new pay table. It used to be twenty
one years for you to reach the top pay scale,
which is absolutely ridiculous, and I think it's eight. Yeah,
So the post Office was forced to reorganize, and so
is the union. This is where the American Postal Workers

(07:53):
Union was born and from this strike, we were able
to settle on the National Agreement. So there's the National Agreement,
which is our binding contract. There's the JCAM, which is
the Joint Contract Administration Manual, just what the Post Office
and the Union use as the interpretation of the contract.

(08:16):
That way, we are not arguing and spending time about
what the contract could mean. We can just focus on
whether or not someone broke our agreement. So after this,
one would imagine that a quasi federal institution would honor
the contract that was created, argain in good faith, and

(08:39):
treat their employees.

Speaker 4 (08:40):
Isn't that right?

Speaker 2 (08:41):
Yeah, I know it's spoken like someone who has never
watched a federal cod action.

Speaker 4 (08:48):
Yeah. Absolutely not.

Speaker 3 (08:50):
Before we get into issues that we face today, I
do want to say that one of the main goals
of our contract negotiations, or of this episode really is
to create public knowledge of how our contract is not
being adhered to. If there was one main goal that

(09:12):
I'd have in mind, is just to have the Post
Office honor what they signed and agreed to do.

Speaker 5 (09:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:21):
I mean, this is something that it's a part of
being in a union that doesn't get talked about very much,
which is that the contract doesn't mean anything unless the
union enforces it, because the moment the contract happens, the
bosses will attempt to not abide by it. And this
is what a lot of union militancy back in the
sort of heyday of militancy was. I mean, like, you know,

(09:42):
if you look at like how the UAW worked in
like the sixties, right, they'd have a guy with a
whistle standing on the line, and if someone did a
contract violation, he would blow the whistle and everyone would
just sit down and you'd immediately have a strike right it,
you know, And like that level of miltancy. You don't
need to be at that level to enforce a contract,

(10:04):
but you have to actually be willing to do stuff
and to fight management over it. And if you're not
willing to do that, your contract is effectively meaningless. And
that's a real issue with a lot of unions.

Speaker 3 (10:16):
Which just kind of circles back to one of the
big issues that we face is that if we were
to do that, that would be a willingfu delay of mail,
and we could be charged for it just for trying
to enforce the contract.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yep. Yeah, which the thing I think is really interesting,
just to circle back to the nineteen seventy strike. Is
that so the strike was illegal, right, Nixon brings in
the army, in the National Guard to break it, and
the strike still wins. And not only does it you know,
I mean you could argue whether it achieved total victory,

(10:52):
but not a single person who walked off the line
got arrested, even though all of them technically committed a crime.
And that's something that like, you know, I think, let
me okay, the the enforcements of laws depends on sort

(11:12):
of the the depends on a set of of relative
balance of forces and whether people care about enforce in
the law, which is how like for example, like if
you pirate like seven movies and you get you get
three copyright strike, you go to prison. But you know,
like the sam Alman or whatever like AI company can

(11:33):
literally steal everything on the entire Internet and get money
for it and no one will love to prosecute him, right,
And so so you know, whether or not something is
illegal is to a large extent or or the difference
between something being illegal and you going to prison for
it largely has to do with the balance of forces involved.

(11:53):
And that's something that you should keep in mind when
and this is this is the thing, this is the
thing that that cuts the other way too. Employers just
do illegal actions literally all the time, and it doesn't
matter because the state doesn't care.

Speaker 3 (12:09):
Yeah, By and large, labor laws in America are set
up in favor of the businesses of the employers. If
you're familiar with workers comp or any of the systems
involved in the Federal Employees Compensation Act, it's not enforced.
We have cases that are pending arbitration where someone's been

(12:34):
run over by a worker has been run over by
a postal vehicle while they were working. The post office
effectively takes them off of payroll to increase the damage
done to the individual. Eventually, the Department of Labor says, yes,

(12:54):
we will pay this individual, and the post office is
liable to pay them now they are off the rolls,
which means there's a greater period of time before this
individual gets their money. And there's a certain form that
within the post office the managers need to fill out.

Speaker 4 (13:12):
I believe it's an eighty one thirty or you know.

Speaker 3 (13:15):
All these forms have some numbers associated with them that
they just refuse to fill out, and there's no recourse.
There's no cheez, a path for us to take to
make them hurry or make them get this individual the
money that they're owed. And some people this doesn't ruin
their lives and they've already paid off their house or whatever.

(13:38):
But I imagine for many many working Americans that's that's their
livelihood immediately down the drain.

Speaker 2 (13:49):
Yeah, unfortunately we need to go to ads for a
little bit because unfortunately, my boss's boss's boss's livelihood depends
on these ads. By technically does too, but like lord knows,
I don't see that money.

Speaker 5 (14:03):
So ads.

Speaker 1 (14:17):
We are back.

Speaker 2 (14:19):
And yeah, I guess that leads into you the next
place you want to go to, which is talking about
what are the specific grievances today that y'all are dealing
with and the union is not dealing with.

Speaker 3 (14:33):
Right So, in terms of grievances within the union and
a negotiation, a lot of it does have to do
with the aforementioned workers' compensation. Employees are just simply not
getting paid. I think the biggest problem with the union
and the grievance procedure today is that management has figured

(14:55):
out this really effective strategy if they don't settle on
the lower levels, and it gets pushed up to arbitration.
Then we have a massive backlog of cases appending arbitration,
which could be scheduled years out. I think if you

(15:15):
do the math for our current rate of handling these
cases and how many cases we have, it'll take around
fifteen years to get through the long.

Speaker 2 (15:26):
Christ not assuming there's no new ones.

Speaker 4 (15:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (15:30):
Yeah, that's like you know when you go to a
restaurant and there's that little stanchion out there that says
it's a five hour wait from this point. That's the
point that we're at. Anything beyond today will be further
along Jesus Christ. And so I think that is just

(15:51):
a major problem for us clearly. Yeah, management just not
complying with any of the and it makes it so
that our employees have to wait.

Speaker 4 (16:04):
Something I do want.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
To talk about that's outside of the grievance procedure if
we can, is just what's going on with the post
Office and the Postmaster General. Yeah, all right, So I
want to go at this from the customer perspective first,
because I think that's the best way to relate to people.
I think by and large, people are losing faith in
the Post Office. Either you have no idea what's going on,

(16:29):
or you don't care, and that's fine, I'd say. Before
I joined, I didn't think of them at all. You know,
they're just the guy that shows up at my house
every morning. A lot of people seem to think that
the post Office is going out of business, and our
customers are facing increasingly long lines, misdelivered or lost mail,

(16:51):
and an increase in postage for a service that is
getting worse. People are paying more for worse service, and
it's easy to point out the issues from the outside
and be rightfully upset at them. I do feel like
we're doing a disservice to our our customers, and I'm
not really not trying to attack them when I say

(17:11):
that they're uninformed or clueless to the inner workings of
the Post Office. I do directly want to attack Congress
and say that, yeah, when they post They had pushed
forward a bill called the Postal Accountability and Enhancement Act
in two thousand and six, which required the Post Office

(17:32):
to prefund one hundred percent of its retiree health benefits
and liabilities seventy five years into the future. What so, overnight,
the Post Office was handed a five point five billion
dollar burden, and that's where the whole I don't know
if you remember, I certainly wasn't conscious of it at

(17:53):
the time, to save our post office stickers that were
being sold and trying to fund the post Office. And
really that's where the rhetoric of the post Office is
going under comes from. The Other thing I want to
point out is that we are a quasi federal We
actually accept nothing from tax payer monies. It says it's
a service, but really the post Office has ran as

(18:14):
a business. We don't even get subsidized because they don't
need to. My local union president loves to remind us
that the post Office is a business that has a
revenue of seventy eight point two billion dollars, and he'll
want me to stress that the point two is extremely
important because point two of a billion is twenty million.

(18:36):
They are not in jeopardy. We are not going out
of business. And the Postmaster General, Louis de Joy, he's
the second highest paid public servant in America, just underneath
the President of the United States.

Speaker 2 (18:54):
He's played Ward and Clarence Thomas.

Speaker 1 (18:56):
Wow.

Speaker 3 (18:57):
Yeah, I think it was like three hundred and eighty
two thousand a year or something. Like that the Joy
was appointed by Donald Trump. I'm assuming this is kind
of a baseless assumption, so forgive me. I'm not doing
my research here, but I'm assuming that they're buddies because
d Joy has no idea.

Speaker 2 (19:16):
Yeah, wasn't Wasn't she the guy that Trump brought in,
like specifically to destroy the post office as part of
the campaign to steal the election.

Speaker 3 (19:24):
Yeah, so there's been a lot about the Joy defrauding
the election process. I wasn't part of the post office
to see the inner workings of it, so it's kind
of hard for me to say if it was hearsay
or not, but I believe it because the Joy has
no idea how to run a post office. He's never
been involved with this kind of business. He is in

(19:46):
the same way that Trump is a businessman, a horrible businessman,
and his Delivering for America plan could really be redefined
as consolidation efforts for a business. So what they're doing
is their consolidating infrastructure and the workforce, which means closing
post offices in order to save money and shoving three

(20:08):
installations into one building. That's why the lines are getting longer.
It also means that from dispatch, the employees have to
drive an extra mile or two into their working zone,
which of course means that we're going to go into overtime,
and this just throws a wrench in the mail handling process.

(20:30):
He has single handedly made the service a lot more reliable,
and I do think that you're right. Irreliable, yeah, sorry,
more unreliable, And I do think that you're right. He
wants to destroy the post office not only for the election,
but to the point where it makes more sense to

(20:50):
go private. Now is the time to point out that
the joy is a major shareholder in FedEx, which is.

Speaker 4 (20:58):
Which is a subcontractor for the.

Speaker 3 (21:01):
USPS, and he has millions of dollars in equity involved.

Speaker 4 (21:06):
He's got skin in the game.

Speaker 2 (21:08):
Love open corruption so great.

Speaker 3 (21:12):
And so on the local level, on what's going on
in my office, I actually have one of the better
offices that I've seen or heard about. I have been
sent to other offices and I have experience firsthand the
bullying and harassment from management pushing us to go faster.

(21:33):
But even at one of the better offices, I work
sixty hour weeks. I don't have set days off. It's
not even a rotation. When I get home. I'm spent.
And my commute isn't that bad. I think I'm about
fifteen minutes each way, and I really can't imagine driving
two hours after an eleven hour shift just to eat

(21:56):
and come back and do it again.

Speaker 6 (21:58):
I mean, that's just unsafe, Like that's see.

Speaker 3 (22:02):
Oh yeah, it would be illegal, but since it's in
the contract, it's not illegal.

Speaker 2 (22:07):
Oh my god.

Speaker 3 (22:09):
So the sacrifice that you make when you're joining the
post Office, well, I guess I should explain. When you
join as a letter carrier, the first ninety days, they
can fire you for any reason, and you're something called
either a CCA or a PTF, and that means part
time flexible or a city carrier assistant. You are only

(22:31):
guaranteed four hours for showing up for work. You're not
guaranteed to be scheduled. So if they don't like you,
they just will schedule schedule you once a week for
an unknown amount of time until you quit. And if
you're in a busy place, then that just means that
they're going to work you to death. So when you
join the workforce, immediately you lose time with your family.

(22:54):
You lose time with your loved ones and your friends,
and I myself am so fortunate that all my loved
ones have been beyond understanding. But every time I talk
about it, I get asked the same thing, why don't
you quit?

Speaker 2 (23:11):
Yeah?

Speaker 3 (23:12):
And the truth is, this job is awesome. I love it.
I want to work it. I just want it to
make sense and be livable. And I'm not gonna give
up just because we haven't reached the point where it is.
You know, if you walk away now, it doesn't get better.
I'm sure someone would take my place. But it helps

(23:33):
to have people stick around.

Speaker 2 (23:45):
That's actually a pretty comedy. I mean, this is one
of the Amazon strategy right through from their warehouses. They
intentionally want to cycle through people because the more the
more new people you have continuously cycling through, the less
organized and the less sort of like must knowledge, they
have less you have to pay them, et cetera, et cetera,
et cetera. And so if you can just cause high
turnover rates on purpose, that's the thing that a lot

(24:08):
of these sort of business gohoule like Nightmare or factory
people love in their workforces and makes everyone else's life
just a living hell. But you know they're getting They're
still getting paid.

Speaker 4 (24:25):
Right, and so I try and hold that in mind.

Speaker 3 (24:28):
When I've been overworked and I'm at the end of
one of my major shifts because I had to carry
part of another route because someone else called out, I
really have to stop and think to myself that this
other person who called out is just as exhausted as
I am is probably going to get a letter of

(24:50):
warning for calling out.

Speaker 4 (24:51):
That's another issue. They don't want you to use your leave.

Speaker 2 (24:55):
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 3 (24:56):
I'm going to file an unfair labor practice because they've
been doing that a lot at my office as well.

Speaker 4 (25:03):
It reminds me a.

Speaker 3 (25:04):
Lot are issues of your recent episode. I think it
was you about the nurses Union, the shift change episode.
Their members are dealing with a lot of the same things,
where the unions are so big that they become detached
from the membership and we are finding out afterwards what

(25:25):
our bargaining agreements are, what our strategy was. Everything's after
the contract has been signed, and that's just not how
unions were meant to be. They're meant to be from
the bottom up, by the workers, for the workers. But
it really does feel like it's like National is its

(25:45):
own entity, and so I guess that would bring us
to talking about the union and the future of the union.

Speaker 2 (25:53):
Yeah, let's get into that.

Speaker 3 (25:55):
So I got to be careful here because Brian Renfro,
he's our national leader of the union. He's been struggling
with problems in his personal life, and I don't feel
like I'm outsteeing him as its public knowledge, at least
within the Post office.

Speaker 4 (26:10):
It's public knowledge.

Speaker 3 (26:11):
He's dealing with substance abuse, with alcoholism, and that's something
that hits very close to home within my family, and
I really don't want to demonize that he's struggling. But
what I do want to say is when you're going
through something like that and you've accepted a position on
the national level like this, you really need to either

(26:34):
step down or appoint someone to handle things in your place.
As negotiations started over a year ago, he kind of
went missing and it was later revealed that he was inpatient,
which is fine, get your help, but there was nothing left,

(26:56):
no notes left for us to strategize with, and our
membership is just in the dark. And beyond that, the
leadership has gone missing. It's it's very dark times for
the NAOC.

Speaker 2 (27:13):
Well, and that that's also just sort of like an
organizational problem, right like if if you're if your organization
is set up in such a way that a small
number of people being incapacitated means total paralysis and no
one has any idea what's going on. That's just a
bad way to run something. And especially it's a terrible
way to run a union because the union's you know,

(27:36):
power is supposed to be from from its organization and
from the collective power of a large, large, organized group
of people who can make decisions for themselves. And if
it's if that's not happening and you get to the
point where these decisions are being made by a very
small number of people who can just sort of vanish,
like that's that for whatever, And you know, literally whatever

(27:56):
reason that is, right, it could just be you get sick.
It could just be like whatever happens. That's just a
terrible way to organize things. And I guess it's also
like I want to make take it like like like
a little tiny tangent to be like, if you're doing
any organizing project, your goal is to organize yourself out
of a job, Like you're like ideally, if you were
in an organization, it should be able to function without you.

(28:18):
There should Not having an indispensable person is a fiasco.

Speaker 5 (28:22):
Don't do that.

Speaker 2 (28:23):
This is true of both like your tiny local mutual
aid group, as much as is true of your giant
national union. So that this this has been this has
been mea talking about the indispensable person don't have.

Speaker 3 (28:36):
Well, yeah, that's kind of the funny thing about joining
a union from an anarchist perspective. It gets a little
funky how hierarchical they typically are, and the problems that
we know we are going to face when you have
a system that's built like a pyramid.

Speaker 4 (28:54):
Yeah, oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (28:57):
And so I was saying, we're in dark time, but
there's such a bright future that I can see for
us Branch nine of the NALC, and namely this individual
Tyler Vasser, who when I had originally posted on Reddit
asking for attention, he's the one that I thought would

(29:20):
be great for this interview. His branch, Branch nine has
passed a resolution to form an open bargaining strategy for
contract negotiations, and I hope this sweeps the nation. We're
not allowed to strike, as I've mentioned, and our leadership
is so shy when it when it comes to activism

(29:42):
or mobilization of the workforce, they don't want to touch
the topic. The closest thing we have to it is
a rally that is enough is Enough that's being held
in Baltimore soon about the violence that's being done to
postal workers. We're being robbed and we're being harassed, But

(30:03):
even then we're missing a large chunk of the danger
that is posed to postal workers, because yes, we're being
robbed on the streets, but we're also being bullied and
harassed inside of our work places by management, by the
people who are supposed to empower us to do the
job effectively.

Speaker 4 (30:25):
And so they don't want to touch the topic of
a strike, I think, for fear of retaliation. But to me,
pushing for the right to strike is a I'm not
sure how to word this. It is such.

Speaker 3 (30:41):
An important part of the nilc's identity, the postal strike
of nineteen seventy, that it seems silly to ignore it
today and pretend like it didn't happen. So for the future,
I think that activism is our key to success. I

(31:01):
think that the old heads that lead our union come
from a time where unions were frowned upon where activism
was frowned upon. But I think that public opinion will
be largely in our favor, and that public opinion can
really put pressure on the legislative branch on Congress, and

(31:23):
if we are transparent about our union, what we're asking for,
the issues that we're facing, I think that the public
would be on our side. If the people in America
knew that management was falsifying time records or training records
and interfering with workers' comps, claim and back pay, or

(31:44):
that they're not paying the settlements that they've agreed to pay,
that they're not scheduling arbitration sessions big or small, that
they would care, and that they would join us in
the streets. One major thing that happened, I think it
was last year in the summer, we had a letter carrier,

(32:07):
his name is Eugene Gates, who died in the Texas
heat Jesus year because management told him not to take
as many breaks or he would face discipline. These pressures
that we face when when you're threatened that you will
lose your job if you don't listen to us, you

(32:29):
will push yourself to the point of exhaustion and further, Yeah,
I think that the Post Office killed mister Gates and
there wasn't as much outcry or.

Speaker 4 (32:46):
Or anger behind the movement.

Speaker 3 (32:48):
I often find myself thinking that while I don't have
the answers, I do know that we need to care more. Yeah,
and it's hard to care when you're exhausted. I acknowledge that.

Speaker 7 (33:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (33:03):
Well, I think there's two things about that. One, I mean,
I don't and this is something I've gotten to with
a lot of the sort of interviews that I've done
on this show, is that I think a lot of
very very basic jobs have labor conditions that are unimaginably
appalling that people just don't know about. And I think

(33:25):
people are very sympathetic too, once they actually understand what's
happening in the kind of just horror show stuff that's
happening in these workplaces. And the second thing I think
that's sort of important in terms of getting people to
you know, trying to actually do like mass mobilizations even
just to get people to understand what's going on, is
that I think a lot of people who are facing

(33:46):
these kinds of conditions think that they're alone and think
that it's just something that happens to them, or they've
been in them for so long they think that it's
sort of normal. And having a bunch of people go no,
like a this happens and be it shouldn't happen is
extraordinarily powerful because you know, like that that feeling of

(34:07):
isolation is is the thing that all of that you know,
you're that your bosses depend on to make sure that
you know you you just keep going along with these
conditions even though they are just objectively horrific. And I
think any strategy that's not based on that is just
not going to go anywhere.

Speaker 3 (34:27):
Right, And one of the strategies that I really want
to push forward as I grow within the union. And
don't get me wrong, I want to stay as steward.
I think that educating our members and uh being part
of the workforce is my place in the union. But
what I want to push is for union solidarity. I

(34:48):
want the NLC to hire organizers, specifically organizers to try
and get the public mobilized and as well as the workforce,
so that we can put pressure on Congress, so that
we can show our bargaining teams that we support them,
and so that we can have clearly defined bargaining terms.

(35:11):
And yeah, I think that having solidarity between unions and
reaching out to the other movements in a time where
union support is higher than ever is such a clear
path that we are just ignoring for whatever reason because
people are afraid to speak out against the Post Office.

(35:35):
And so I'm really not sure what's going to happen
with our current contract, but I do know that the
fight never ends, and that while we stand on the
shoulders of giants, we have to pay respect to these
giants by not giving up now. And I'm a relatively
new employee and steward, but I'm really walking in the

(35:55):
footsteps of some warriors. The branch president I mentioned, Ken
Lurch has given me so much support and education and
has done so much hard work over the years that
I don't have to reinvent the wheel, none of us do.
We just have to continue the struggle.

Speaker 2 (36:15):
Yeah, and I think I think that's a great place
to end you unless you have anything else that you
want to make sure we get to.

Speaker 4 (36:23):
No, nothing, nothing on this topic.

Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yeah, So how can how can people support you and
postal workers just in general? If there's specific place you
want them to go?

Speaker 4 (36:35):
In general?

Speaker 3 (36:35):
There is on the na LC site, which is just
an ALC dot com. There is a section where you
put in your address and it it'll give you the
email addresses, the phone numbers for your representatives so that
you can make some noise. Again, we're amazingly limited in

(36:59):
what we can do, so there's not really anything that
you can donate to to help us, including the letter
carrier political fund.

Speaker 4 (37:09):
But yeah, just pay attention to us.

Speaker 3 (37:12):
Maybe leave a bottle of water out in your front door,
says for the postal worker. You know, there's nothing better
that you can do than talking about it. Word of
mouth is the best advertisement.

Speaker 2 (37:25):
Well, yeah, we will, we will. We will put that
in the show notes. I help you all win, and
I don't. I don't think I've ever said this genuinely
in my life, but thank you for your service.

Speaker 4 (37:36):
I appreciate that. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:37):
I never imagined myself to become a federal employee, and
it is just as bad as I imagined. Yeah, so
I do want to shout out Actually it's a little meta,
I guess, but I do want to shout out some
important episodes of it could happen here that.

Speaker 4 (37:58):
Hit me very closely. If I can.

Speaker 3 (38:00):
Yeah, yeah, go for it because a lot of the
people listening will be postal workers that have been pointed
in this direction. Please look at the May and Mar episodes,
the Free burm the Burmese Revolution, and look at the
work that me I believe you've done the same work

(38:20):
as James with border kindness.

Speaker 4 (38:23):
Those are two topics that.

Speaker 3 (38:25):
I think y'all hit really well and that really touched
me as a person. Sometimes I'll relisten to those episodes
when I'm having a hard day just to remind myself
that it's all the same. It's all the same fight.

Speaker 2 (38:42):
Yeah, it absolutely is, And I mean I think that's
that's sort of the beauty. I mean, it's it's both
the beauty and the horror of this world is that
on the one hand, all of us are being crushed
by the same sets of forces. But on the other hand,
it means that whatever fight that you're taking is also
a part of the larger fight forget all.

Speaker 4 (39:01):
Of us free.

Speaker 3 (39:03):
Yeah exactly, So just fight the burnout and stay in
the fight.

Speaker 1 (39:07):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Yeah, this is pennicket Apple. Here go make trouble for
people who suck.

Speaker 7 (39:27):
Hi.

Speaker 5 (39:28):
Everyone, it's James. We just wanted to let you know
that some new shit has come to light since since
we recorded this. Specifically, a former staff of was A
Your Kitchen who resigned who was of Palestinian descent wrote
an op ed I guess in Mundweiss, which is a
publication that covers is rather Palestine and the United States
role there, and it's given us some more information about

(39:50):
what's the tr kitchen that we didn't know when we
first recorded this, and so we are going to address
out at the end. So after the second ad break,
Charles will go Sherean and I will come back and
we gonna address some stuff that we found in that
op ed. We will also link it in the description
to this podcast.

Speaker 8 (40:05):
Yes, it's a really good article. I recommend you guys
give it a full read. But yeah, we will be
talking all about it at the end, so please listen
to the whole episode. Hello, everybody, welcome to it could
happen here today. I am joined by my illustrious colleague.

Speaker 5 (40:21):
James Hi James, Hi Scheren.

Speaker 8 (40:24):
And my now friend Charles McBride. Hi, Charles, welcome back
to the show.

Speaker 5 (40:29):
Hi, no friends, Sharen.

Speaker 9 (40:30):
It's wonderful to be here and to know that you're
a real person, not a yeah.

Speaker 10 (40:35):
Fun fact.

Speaker 8 (40:35):
I have met Charles in person, but I have not
met James in person, and I think that's pretty funny.

Speaker 5 (40:40):
That's why I got colleague and Charles ki friends.

Speaker 10 (40:44):
Tech that don't read into that.

Speaker 6 (40:47):
Okay, we have.

Speaker 8 (40:50):
We're talking about World Central Kitchen and the tragedy that
happened last week in which seven AID workers were killed.
Both of these gentlemen have personal experience with the organization,
so I thought it would be good to talk about.
But James take it.

Speaker 5 (41:04):
Away, Okay, So yeah, I think I think we should
maybe start off Charles, you and I've both seen World
Central Kitchen in different places. Like my longest experience with
them was starting in twenty eighteen in Tijuana, right when
we were trying to feed people who were part of
a caravan of migrants who had arrived right before the midterms,

(41:25):
and what was a relatively normal thing became a really
big political sort of football, which resulted in the people,
remember like people being tear gassed in Mexico from inside
the United States, people being held first in a baseball
stadium and then in an old strip club, which was
really gross. And they're being essentially no and goo presence

(41:47):
at first and then Mutual Aid Presence and then World
Central Kitchen were one of the first people to show
up and cook for people, and like, at this point,
there was a really dying of need for food. Like
I have this vivid memory of three of my friends
and I are riding in a bed of a pickup
truck into this refugee camp and people just mobbing for
food and water, and like people would get about, like

(42:11):
not stamping on children once once we stopped, but like
I was really worried there was going to be a crash.
People were very hungry and very thirsty, and I had
just had massive respect for people showing up and just
being like, we are people who cook food, and what
we're here to do is cook food and these people
are hungry who were going to give it to them?
And so I've always been admiring of their work since then.

(42:31):
And I went to Childs, like what your sort of
initial experience was with them, and if you could describe
like sort of what sort of work you've seen them doing. Yeah, So.

Speaker 9 (42:44):
First experience that I had with World Central Kitchen was
actually hands off. It was when my friends and I
we created this thing four years ago called the Farm
Project which is a food rescue organization. It basically finds
food that's going to waste on farms and pays the
wages of the truckers and the drivers to transport the

(43:06):
food to food banks that are overworked. We sort of
tagged in with World Central Kitchen in the beginning of
COVID and talked with them a little bit, but there
was never any official partnership. Some of their comms people
gave us advice, some of their fundraising people gave us advice.
First time I ever saw them in operation was coming
into the Jimish train station week two of the Ukraine War,

(43:31):
and they were the organization feeding all the refugees coming
in a bunch of people in World Central Kitchen, and
the thing I noticed was none of them were speaking English.
They were all speaking Polish and Ukrainian or Russian. And
I started to realize, this is an organization that knows

(43:52):
how to mobilize a local population and a local response
as a part of the thing. And that's something I
really noticed when almost a year later, I flew from
Ukraine to Turkey when a seven point five Magetude earthquake
went through southeastern Turkey, Kardistan and I flew into Adanna

(44:14):
and then basically linked up with the World's Central Kitchen
people in the city of Osmania. And one of the
things I noticed was how quickly they were able to
get into Syria when nobody else was getting into Syria.
And the reason is because it's just chefs. It's just

(44:35):
using chefs in restaurants in places where they already exist.
Every place in the world has chefs and restaurants. And
Jose Andres has this amazing quote that I really like.
He says, everyone already works for World Central Kitchen, they
just don't know it yet. And I saw that in action.
I saw all these kitchens transformed into you know, shelters

(44:56):
and food distribution sites, and I got to work alongside
their team. So my project, I was trying to fundraise
for heaters and blankets to heat the AFAD tents in
the affected regions in Kurdistan and in the Kurdish villages
on the on the border with Syria, because there was
it was still very cold at that time and there
was not you know, adequate attention paid to that. Obviously,

(45:20):
AFAD and its cronies is part of the whole reason
that that incident was as bad as it was, but
World Central Kitchen stepped up in a big way in Turkey,
and I was really impressed with kind of their outfit.
We were working out of the same distribution center, you know.
I got to a company, Jose Andres on a couple
of his deliveries, and we went in to Hate and
walked around and saw the extent of the devastation and

(45:43):
visited all the World Central Kitchen feeding sites, and it
was just it was all Turkish people and Gurtish people
who were there working from World Central Kitchen. They had
been mobilized by this entity. So there's this decentralized element
to World Central Kitchen that I found really impressive. It
didn't feel like the top down, bureaucratic thing I kept
throwing into in my humanitarian work with these big NGOs.

(46:05):
It was much more grassroots, much more bottom up. So
it gained a lot of respect for me in that sense.

Speaker 5 (46:11):
Yeah, I think that's a really good point to make
that they do have a different model. It allows them
to be flexible. It's allowed them to be places where
other people aren't like. I think a lot of people,
perhaps like are not as familiar with the NGO world
as you and I might be like, like, NGOs often
present themselves in places where people need help, but it's like,

(46:32):
you know, they have large office buildings and white land cruises,
and they have one way of doing things and it's
their way, and sometimes that doesn't work well. I can
recount countless examples of this, right, NGOs that exist to
do things in a certain way and don't adapt to
a local situation or culture. And that's something the World's
Central Kitchen have done really well in my experience, all

(46:54):
over the world.

Speaker 9 (46:55):
Yeah, they graft themselves on to a local response and
every everywhere that they go, it takes on the local flavor.
And I think it's that's why this happened, is because
they inserted themselves into a highly volatile situation and because
they are so decentralized, and because they are so on
the ground, they also exposed themselves to the realities of

(47:16):
what Palestinians have been facing in Gaza and lost members
of their team, you know as a result. And I
think that is part of that is there's a lot
of people who won't even go into Gaza, you know,
if they had the opportunity, like you said, these big NGOs,
I think last time I was on the on the
podcast Sharen, I talked about, you know, seeing these big

(47:38):
UN advertisements in the Copenhagen airport saying save Ukrainian children
when I first when I was going over there, and
then as soon as I got there, I mean, the
minute you go east to Leviv, You're not going to
see a UN truck anywhere. And it was it was
that way for nine months, you know. In Yeah, it
was just a bunch of people with like brand new
white Land Cruise or Pratos, sipping cocktails and Leviv while

(48:01):
subcontracting with actual humanitarians working closer to the front line.
World Central Kitchen was not that way. They were all
the way out, all the way on the east. Everywhere
I went there was World Central Kitchen cars, even deep
into Donyetsk, And that was really impressive. It was so
it felt antithetical to the whole nonprofit industrial complex model

(48:23):
that I'd become familiar with, and I was impressed by that.

Speaker 5 (48:28):
Yeah, So perhaps we should to speak about exactly what
they were doing in Ghaz because I think people are
practical a little confused. There's been a lot of like
misinformation from all kinds of angles about what they were
doing in Gaza, So do you have a good handle
on that.

Speaker 9 (48:43):
I mean, World Central Kitchen positioned itself. They engage in
slightly more activist humanitarianism than most organizations, which is why
I mean jose Andres went big on Ukraine. He was there,
he brought the whole team. I mean, they put they
dedicated so many resources to Ukraine, and for him it

(49:05):
was unequivocal. Ukrainians are the good guys, Russians are the
bad guys. We're helping the victims of this conflict, and
you know, we're on the side of the angels in
this and that was the positioning, and I think it
was a bit of a wake up call when after
October seventh he did the same thing in Israel and
went and you know, gave food to the to the

(49:27):
to the different Kibut seam that were affected by the
October seventh attacks, and at first very much positioned himself
as like, we're here to help relieve the affect at
israelis which again for like polite liberals in the humanitarian world.
You know, Israel Ukraine both aligned with Western interests, Western

(49:49):
values theoretically, and I think and then you know, suddenly
the war focus goes from what happened to the kibbut
seem to what's happening in Gaza. And so they went
to Egypt and they started helping the refugees, and then
they tried to get into Gaza. Then they did get
into Gaza and they set up, you know, an effective

(50:10):
system of the food aid. And I started to notice
while that was happening that the perspectives of a lot
of the people that I was working with in the
aid community were starting to shift on this whole thing.
People who didn't have a political interest in supporting the
Palestinians and were just kind of supporting Israel because of
the default. When they actually went to Gaza, they started

(50:34):
to really change their tune.

Speaker 5 (50:37):
And you see this.

Speaker 9 (50:37):
A little bit with Jose Andres as well. I think
Jose Andres was, yeah, I mean this in terms of
his personal views on Israel, they seem to have very
clearly evolved. You can see very soon after October seventh,
he is calling out the Spanish Prime Minister on calling
what's happening in Palestine and genocide. He's saying Israel has

(51:00):
the rights to defend itself, and then he spends a
bunch of time in Gaza, and now he's greeting everyone
in Arabic, and then this thing happens, and he immediately
points the finger at ISRAELI says, you guys targeted my team,
you killed them deliberately, and you made sure the job
was finished, and that is just so reproachable. And in

(51:22):
doing so, he became one of the only really big
celebrity voices to make what appeared to be something of
a one to eighty turn on that conflict. And pretty
much everyone that I've worked with in the humanitarian or
journalism space has also done the same thing in regard
to Gaza. I'd say most people thought my views on
this were too extreme after October seventh, when I began

(51:44):
immediately criticizing Israel, and now the ones who have actually
been there pretty much on equivocally say they're the bad
actor in this region. And I think you saw that
shift happen in real time with sort of the attitude
that World Central Kitchen took to Gaza. All that stuff
is available from public statements. I don't want to share
private sentiments that have been shared with me by members

(52:06):
of World Central Kitchen staff. Those are their own and
they don't represent the organization. But I think even just
watching the yo yo of Jose Andres's perspective on this
change has been enlightening.

Speaker 5 (52:18):
Yeah, And I think, like it's easy to be critical
of someone for having opinions which like have not aided well, right, Like,
and sometimes that's okay sometimes some since we need to
do that, sometimes people say shit which is unforgivable. But
like I think in this instance, like we can be
critical at a point, but I don't think now it's
a time for that. Like I think now it's a

(52:40):
time for like everyone who wants the starving and killing
of innocent people in Gaza to stop is on our
side right now, and we need to welcome that. And
like there are a lot of people in this country
right who we need to do that same one eighty
and giving examples of people doing that is good, like

(53:01):
they and there are a lot of people who don't
see themselves when they see dead people in Gaza, and
that's a problem, right, And that's some shit that they
need to examine, and because there's a lot of bigotry there.
But if they see themselves in those aid workers, or
they see themselves in Jose Andres, and look fucking when
I saw the bodies of those aid workers, right, you
have a tall, skinny British guy with long hair in

(53:23):
a plate carrier with a badge on like that, That's
what I look like to ninety nine percent of the world,
and it's hard not to feel like, oh shit, like
that could be me, and and I have well, I
feel like I have a lot of empathy for people
in guys that are friends in guars that we speak
to them on the podcast sharing and I spoke to
them last week. But whatever it takes for those people

(53:43):
to change their opinions right now is what we need,
and we can we can dissect how we got here later,
but like every minute that this continues, more innocent people die.
And if we can stop this one minute sooner than
there's an important life that we can save. And I
think it's really important to focus on where we are,

(54:04):
not like how how we got here right now, if
that makes sense.

Speaker 8 (54:08):
As far as global conflicts go. I believe it's like
two hundred and twenty four AID workers have died in Gaza,
which is not a normal number in any kind of war.
So that's according to the UN.

Speaker 5 (54:20):
Yeah, one hundred journalists, right like every there is one
person I can think of who has worked with in
Gaza who is still alive. Everyone I know has lost
family members, and that that's just my tiny slice, you know,
and by no means as affected by this as most people.
But yeah, that three times as many children have died
since October in Gaza as are normally killed in conflicts

(54:43):
in a year worldwide. It's fucking horrific. And yeah, we
will do well to put aside our differences and make
it stop, I think.

Speaker 9 (54:52):
Yeah, I agree, opposition to genocide and wanting to end
it should be a very big tent and the fact
that some people on the Internet are trying to make
it a smaller one doesn't make a lot of sense
to me.

Speaker 5 (55:04):
Yeah.

Speaker 8 (55:04):
Yeah, yeah, it promotes infighting, which is not helpful right now. Yeah,
it is helpful to not call it a war and
continue calling a genocide because that's what it is. So yeah,
just continuing to change all the rhetoric around this genocide
I think is important. This is also not the first
time that Israel has directly targeted aid workers that are

(55:27):
clearly labeled as aid workers. In two thousand and six
and Lebanon, Israel struck a red Cross ambulance right in
the center of the logo. Right on top of the
truck there was or the van was a red cross,
a clear red cross, and it struck right in the center.
I think that image is now going around again from

(55:47):
two thousand and six.

Speaker 10 (55:48):
Again.

Speaker 8 (55:49):
It's not the first time that Israel has directly targeted
AID workers, and I think it's really appalling seeing leadership
in Israel just kind of apologize half hardly, being like
this was a mistake, and then they just move on.
It's if this was the red line for people. I one,
I find that frustrating, But if it's finally the red

(56:11):
line for people, I just hope it continues and people
don't let it go.

Speaker 5 (56:14):
That story that was absolutely fucking heartbreaking, right of that
young girl who was trapped in her car and she
called the ambulance and the ambulance came and they bombed
the ambulance right and they killed her. And they called
the ambulance drivers like those two ambulance drivers were Palestinian.
They were working for the Palestinian Red Crest and they
deserve every bit as much outrage as the words Central
Kitchen people do what they did with every bit as admirable,

(56:37):
but like, if this is what it takes for people
to change, then like I hope that they will also
acknowledge that everything else that happened before was an a
trustee too, talking of like a trustees, we have an
advertising break now.

Speaker 10 (56:52):
That was good James, good job, and we're back.

Speaker 8 (57:06):
Charles. You recently got some online attention for a video
that you posted that was highlighting the vast imbalance of
attention that the targeted assassination of the AID workers got
in comparison to the murder and genocide of Palestinians. Specifically,
people were talking about how there was also a Palestinian

(57:27):
driver who was murdered along with the AID workers and
his name was not getting mentioned. His name is safe,
Isam Abudaha. And just a reminder of how frustrating it
is that this had to be the red line for people.
There are over thirty three thousand people in Gaza who
have been murdered, nearly half of which are children. There
are probably thousands more who are trapped under the rubble,

(57:50):
and other thousands that are just unaccounted for because of
the bobbing of hospitals and the lack of records. So
to have the killing of six aid workers be a
red line for people. That's what I mean by saying
it's frustrating because it is a tragedy, but tragedy has
been taking place for the past six months and also

(58:10):
the past seventy six years. So yes, the video that
Charles made gossa well deserved attention, and I'd love for
you to talk about it a little bit.

Speaker 6 (58:22):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (58:22):
So this was like a strange convergence of things for
me because I had been keeping up with the WCK
team as they went into Gaza. I'd actually even been
in conversations with some of them about potentially going there,
but I hadn't. I mean, like these were just buddies
from a humanitarian trip. I mean, you know, like James
probably knows, you make friends really fast when you're connected,

(58:43):
when you're in these sorts of scenarios, and you know,
I had, I made friendships while I was in Turkey
that I've maintained, and but then my my Palestinian advocacy
was separate. You know, I'm over here educating and everything.
And then suddenly there's this converse jints of like former

(59:04):
co workers on this team dying and then it being
the fault of this regime that I've spent the last
six months trying to educate people on why it's bad.
And I posted a video which was my tribute to
the fallen WCK employees, who were very close friends of
people that I got really close to on that project,

(59:26):
and it was a tribute to them and also a
way of pointing out how their martyrdom has been has
overshadowed the martyrdom of so many Palestinians who will never
get the kind of press and attention that they did,

(59:46):
and I think it achieved that effect. The video went very,
very viral. It's exceeded a million views on TikTok, it's
around a quarter a million on Instagram, and more than
that on the accounts that have reposted and shared it,
sometimes without the context that I am not a World
Central Kitchen employee, nor do I represent the opinions of
the organization. And one of the things that I think

(01:00:09):
made that story go viral is that I did shift
the attention to I said, this is a genocide, and
I said, as grieved as I am at the loss
of these people that I have this connection with, I
do want to point out that it is overshadowing the
horrendous loss of life of Palestinians, and I think that
resonated with a lot of people. It also resonated with

(01:00:31):
my former my friends at w CK, who reached out
to say, we appreciate you using your platform to talk
about this, especially considering the fact that w CK employees
do not typically are not really supposed to be making
statements online about this, so they have a little more
leeway with that. Concerning the fact that the head of

(01:00:54):
the organization has explicitly now condemned Israel for this strike,
but I've had some very interesting conversations with friends of
mine that either still work or connected to the organization.
And that's a slightly complicated thing because World Central Kitchen
subcontracts with so many different people, So at any given point,
there are people who are connected to World Central Kitchen
who are not representatives of the organization or technically employees.

(01:01:17):
So you know, you can't say definitively this is what
the majority of people in WCK feel about Gaza or
Israel or anything. You know, different people have different opinions
about that whole situation.

Speaker 5 (01:01:30):
I think what you tried to do was obviously not
to represent them, and it would be disingenuous any want
to suggest you did, but the internet does that. I
want to talk about one more, talking of disindienuous things
on the Internet, I guess there was this thing that
went around immediately in the aftermath of the photos coming
out of the different people's corpses that like it seemed

(01:01:53):
to be mostly like tankies or perhaps people who still
believe that they can generate revenue from views on Twitter,
saying that like, because these people had a security team,
the security team was somehow spies and the evidence they're
working phase are right, and you can speak to your
experienced childis like, I've worked with security teams and seen
people working with security teams all over the fucking world

(01:02:14):
because war is dangerous and you have the thing that
everyone needs.

Speaker 9 (01:02:18):
If you have the misfortune of being a veteran of
the global War on Terror, you have a very few
outlets for your skill set. One of those is providing
security for humanitarian actors and journalists, and that is one
of the most pro social applications of your skill set.

Speaker 6 (01:02:38):
Yeah, those things to do with those skills, believe me, right.

Speaker 9 (01:02:43):
So I have encountered a lot of people in my
time in Ukraine and elsewhere who have decided to turn
their sort of military intelligence background experience into you know, well, okay,
I'm good at this. I'm familiar with these types of scenarios.
And if there's one thing I'm decent at, it's well,

(01:03:04):
at least trying to keep people safe and give them intelligence.
And that is a that's never a guarantee. But in
all the people I've met who actually are legit, you know,
security consultants or or just veterans who have applied their
skills towards a pro social humanitarian purpose are pretty good guys.
And while I'm sure you know there are some of

(01:03:27):
them who are connected to various you are still connected
to sort of the intelligence services of their various countries.
I think that's definitely a possibility. A lot of them
are not. They're just veterans who are trying to help
and they this is a way that they can make
a living and while doing something that has a low
moral hazard.

Speaker 4 (01:03:49):
So yeah, I.

Speaker 9 (01:03:50):
Dismissed that stuff. There's a lot of conspiracies. The problem is,
I mean, in the vacuum of the sort of post
manufacturing consent world where none of us truyus the Western
liberal media. A lot of people trust stuff that's even dumber,
including just like takes on the Internet that somebody pulled
out of their ass. And a lot of it is

(01:04:11):
if you have set yourself up against everything that comes
out of the West, then every everything that looks like
a fingerprint of an intelligence agency or anything is going
to ring your alarm bells, obviously, you know, James. I
feel like Ukraine is a great example of this. The
fact that the United States supports Ukraine means that Ukraine
must be the villain, and that the entire thing must

(01:04:32):
be a CIA SIOP and their spies everywhere. And I'm
a spy for going to Ukraine and helping grandmothers get
their insulin. All of those things have been said about Ukraine,
about me, about you know that sort of thing, and
we know it, we know it's not true.

Speaker 5 (01:04:46):
It's just that people.

Speaker 9 (01:04:47):
I mean, these, as far as I know, these were
guys who were security consultants, very similar to I work
with a lot of British veterans of the Global War
on tear, basically on various different projects, of it having
to do with PTSD, others having to do with environmental conservation.
Some of whom have worked in Palestine and been in

(01:05:08):
the West Bank. And I think Brits by and large
have a more sane perspective on Palestine than people in
the US too. I've just noticed that they are like
fewer ultra Zionist Brits than Americans.

Speaker 5 (01:05:21):
I think our politics is less dominated by that perspective.
There are ultra zion As British people, but yeah, it's
also just I think a little bit harder to live
a life in Britain where you don't know, it's not
Palestinian people, Arab people and and Muslim people, right, and
that complete demonization and dehumanization of Muslim people that the

(01:05:44):
Western media did for twenty years to manufacture consent for
war that wasn't about weapons of master attraction or women
in Afghanistan. It doesn't stick the landing quite so well
when like, you have friends and you can kind of
see through the nonsense. Yeah.

Speaker 8 (01:05:58):
Well, also I think the percent of like evangelical Christians
was probably much less.

Speaker 1 (01:06:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 5 (01:06:03):
No one's bringing a fucking red cow in England to
take it to this third temple that I know of.

Speaker 9 (01:06:10):
That was one of the things I was going to
point out is I don't think you even have to know,
like to be a Zionist, you don't even have to
know Jewish people in the US. I was raised an
ultra Zionist without knowing a single Jewish family because I
came from an evangelical community in South Carolina that was
very Christo nationalist, very kind of culturally dispensationalist. Even though
my family wasn't dispensationalist. It was all about in times,

(01:06:32):
you support Israel because that's where you know, that's where
Jesus is going to come back. So yeah, I remember,
I mean I I we even had like fake Passover
ceremonies in our church. God, this is bringing up some interesting.

Speaker 5 (01:06:45):
Yeah, into the trima bugs.

Speaker 9 (01:06:48):
But truly, I mean one of my one of my
early sort of I would say I was I was
completely anti Zionist before I was even a leftist. And
part of that reason was because I got to know
a Palestinian friend in Washington, d C. While sharing a
desk with an Israeli conservative and a liberal Zionist.

Speaker 8 (01:07:09):
Wow that is and yeah, joke like these people walk
into a bar, Yeah, trio of.

Speaker 9 (01:07:16):
People, So I like I think I had kind of
I got pilled on Palestine. Part of it was because
like I was history major in college, so I learned historiography.
I just never applied historiography to the Israel Palestine conflict.
And then having these two voices in my ear while
like living and working in DC, I was like, oh,
I need to actually look into this, and so yeah,

(01:07:37):
I mean I would say even before I was like
a leftist, I was down on Israel. I figured they
were not the good guys. And then I think reading
The Fateful Triangle by nome Chrompsky really solidified that. And uh,
obviously Ilan Pope kind of was the nail on the
coffin for me. So yeah, and speaking of like you
know what happens in DC, and you know, America's opinions

(01:08:01):
on the Middle East, most of them are dogshit opinions
because most people do not have some sort of strong
point of reference to this zone. But it goes back
to what we were saying about how being against genocides
should be a very big tent and we should resist
efforts to make it smaller. Because I'm reading through the

(01:08:21):
Hundred Years War in Palestine right now Rashid Khaldi, and
one of the things that he said is how the
war is fought in the United States in Congress because
we hold the keys. So as much as it's as
painful as it is to try and change the minds
of dumb Americans with no geopolitical understanding, it's absolutely essential

(01:08:47):
to holding Israel to account. It is actually one of
the best things that you can do. And when someone
who has the international appeal of Chef jose Andres points
the finger at Israel and said, you killed my employees
deliberately and you're starving Gazans, that goes a long way

(01:09:08):
towards shifting the opinions of the people who actually hold
the keys to everything Israel does.

Speaker 5 (01:09:16):
Yeah, I think that's a very good point, and like
that's what we need to do, right And I like
to stop them getting bombs to kill people, not argue
you on Twitter or you know, Instagram or what have you. Like,
we need to make the killing stop. I wonder, like
you spoke at Childs but knowing people I know, Central

(01:09:38):
Kitchen are no longer working in Gaza for the time being.
From when is that still correct?

Speaker 9 (01:09:45):
They they've publicly announced that they're scaling back their efforts. Yes,
I'm not sure if they're going to totally close down
their operation. I think right now they're probably trying to
reconsider their security protocols before making another step.

Speaker 5 (01:10:00):
Yeah, I mean I don't really know what as there
are things, of course, but like they did attempt to
deconflict I guess, and they were using a road which
is designated for the use that they were using it for, and.

Speaker 8 (01:10:14):
Israel knew where they were, Like it's they have to
report where they are. So, I mean, it would be
fucking crazy if Israel attacked Abergers again right now, but
also it's Israel. I mean, I've done crazier things.

Speaker 9 (01:10:28):
Yeah, but can we like dwell on that for a second.
Like Israel constantly boasts about its ISR capabilities mm HM
in ISR's intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. So like Israel is
constantly reassuring people that it is doing everything it can
to avoid civilian casualties, it talks about its chain of
command for approval. And in light of that, none of

(01:10:50):
the things that they've said about this make any sense whatsoever,
because if if they're protocols, because they're either, it's like
they can't decide what they're trying to gaslight the world
into believing every claim that they're making is muddling what
they're trying to get the world to believe about them,
and it just gives everyone the distinct impression that they're recklessly, incompetent, lying, evil,

(01:11:15):
or potentially all three.

Speaker 5 (01:11:18):
Right, even if you look, I was because I don't
know why this is the thing that I do. I
was looking at like trying to work out what munition
Israel hood used, right to destroy those vehicles, And Israel
has they have a number of different sort of musus
that they could have used. But one of the things
that they do in the US does it too, but
it's a bigger thing with Israel is if they have

(01:11:40):
inert or low yield health fire ammunitions sort of guided
munitions at a five from a helicopter or drone, and
they use them to do a thing that they call
roof knocking, right, which sounds maybe like you're like knocking
on someone's ref What you're doing is sending a missile
through somebody's roof, and that is the means by which
you alert them to evacuate the building because you planning

(01:12:00):
a larger strike that in itself. Yeah, we have this
great ISR capability and what do we do? We launch
missiles into the homes of civilians and then hopefully they
will run away and fear for their lives so that
more of them don't die when we blow up that
block ten minutes later. Like, it's just you know, you
have to look at what's happening, not what's being said.

(01:12:23):
I guess, but.

Speaker 9 (01:12:24):
No, there they're absolutely allergic to accountability. And I think
you can see just how far they've been able. They're
scrambling now because they've been able to get away with
so much for so long, and their excuses are falling
apart because they're alternatively depicting themselves as a highly disciplined
and professional, you know, army, or that they're just making
mistakes because it's war and that people should get off

(01:12:45):
their back because no one holds anyone else at the
same standard that they hold Israel.

Speaker 8 (01:12:49):
It.

Speaker 9 (01:12:49):
So I was like, which is it? Like, what are
you trying to get the world to believe? Are you
either this like crack discipline unit with a very sophisticated
chain of command in an AI software that you're really
proud of for targeting, or are you is this the
fog of war and you're just making mistakes and everyone
makes mistakes and we should get off your back for
it because you can't.

Speaker 5 (01:13:06):
Have it both ways.

Speaker 10 (01:13:06):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:13:07):
Yeah, the civilian casualties are too high for you to
have it both ways. So either you are making mistakes
and too many people are getting killed and you're violating
the laws of rule, or you're doing it deliberately, which
is worse.

Speaker 5 (01:13:21):
Yeah, people can make up their in minds.

Speaker 6 (01:13:24):
I guess Charles.

Speaker 8 (01:13:25):
Thank you so much for joining us today. I really
respect all the work you do and I am grateful
that you have shared your voice with our audience once again.
Where can people find you on the internet if you
want to be found, thank.

Speaker 5 (01:13:38):
You, Shran.

Speaker 9 (01:13:39):
Yeah, you can find me pretty much everywhere except Twitter
with Charles McBride and that's McBride with a why rather
than an I. That's on substack, Instagram, TikTok, and my
website Charles McBride dot com will be live at this
point nice when this episode drops. So if you want

(01:13:59):
to support the humanitarian work I've been involved in in Ukraine,
you can support Mission Harkive on Instagram. It's mission dot
harkive and their website is missionharkive dot com. And if
you're looking for an org that is already working in
Gaza to provide life saving aid in the wake of

(01:14:19):
you know, unrubbing gone. World Central Kitchen now pulling out
an era pulling out. Global Empowerment Mission is still there
and still fulfilling a lot of the same functions that
those organizations were doing.

Speaker 10 (01:14:32):
Thank you so much, Charles.

Speaker 8 (01:14:45):
Scheren and James from the future here giving you an
update about the article that we mentioned at the top
of the episode. So the title itself is I resign
from World Central Kitchen because they refuse to tell the
truth about the Israeli genocide and Gaza. The ex staffer
is Ramsey t. The article itself has some really damning
information about WCK, so we're going to get into it.

(01:15:06):
He says, for months, World Central Kitchen leadership censored material
coming out of its Gaza operation and refused to honor
staff concerns about their work there. And even though they're
finally taking a stand after its personnel have been murdered,
it is much too late. So he resigned in early
March of this year, and at the time he was
the only staff member of Palestinian descent at WCK. And

(01:15:29):
there is an amendment. There, he says that while WCK
hired many Palestinian contractors in Gaza in Egypt, he was
the only Palestinian with staff status following the departure of
one other longtime employee, and he resigned in protest of
the extensive unexplained censorship regarding Gaza At the organization. They
talk about how in December seventh of last year, they

(01:15:50):
sent a letter to wck's executive team, and that letter
called for WCK to join other regionally active NGOs in
calling for a ceasefire and condemning his reels blockade, as
well as conforming its language and coverage of Gaza to
the standard that was stepped by the coverage of Ukraine,
as well as stopping meal service in Israel. It got
fourty three signatures, and the WCK executive team declined to

(01:16:14):
meet up with the people that signed the letter, and
they failed to respond to any inquiries, and they also
actively still served the meals in Israel while the second
day of the ICJ Genocide hearing was happening in January.

Speaker 5 (01:16:27):
There's one paragraph that I want to diale as well,
just because I think it's very crucial when we're discussing
the fact that these people died working for a Ceter kitchen.
And that's this paragraph that I would pick up halfway through.
In another instance, a video of a WCK kitchen caught
in an IDF bombing was put on hold entirely. It

(01:16:49):
appears this incident, as well as the fact that WCK
personnel were board a UN convoy that was bombed, have
not been mentioned anywhere externally. Like, I think that's a
real crucial getting off point. You can have shit politics,
but if you're not saying stuff when your people are
getting bombed, like until they're getting killed, A, I don't

(01:17:11):
know what's wrong with you, and B if you didn't
change things that, I don't know they didn't change things, right,
that's not detailed here, but like you have to change
things if your people are being bombed, Like if I'm
working somewhere where that's a likelihood, you know, like if
if we get bombed once and we're lucky enough to
be okay, we do not continue doing the same shit.

(01:17:31):
And I'm not entirely sure that they did. I don't
want to for a moment suggest that like the people
who died were in like complicit right, that's not what
I'm saying. It's not what you're in saying. I very
much understand the desire to go to places where dangerous
things are happening and help the people who did nothing
to deserve this, and I think the people who did

(01:17:51):
that deserve are an ending gratitude and respect. I'm not
for a minute saying that that's not true. I'm saying
that this organization needs to really think about how it
does shit if it wants to continue operating.

Speaker 8 (01:18:07):
And yeah, the blame is on the executives of this organization.
The article also talks about how the character of w
CK's relief response to Gaza. It was revealed very early
on after October seventh the chief communications officer, Linda Roth.
She had put out a statement without the communications team's input,

(01:18:27):
which is apparently breaking precedent, and it was about how
Hamas attacked Israel with no mention of the Palestinian lives
that were lost. And then three days later, Jose Andres
posted a video to w CK's Instagram where he only
makes reference to the October seventh attack, with no mention
of the climbing Palestine death till at the time or
the blockades and then on social media, Charles mentioned this

(01:18:51):
of the episode. On October sixteenth, he tweeted at the
Spanish Prime Minister to be removed for her protest of
the Israeli tactics, and at the same time, WCK continued
to work closely with the IDF over the course of
the relief response. The initial statement as well as Andre's video,
were decisions that were made by leadership against the concerns
of a WCK personnel. There's this paragraph that I want

(01:19:14):
to read just verbatim. Much of the work in a
genocide is not pulling the trigger, but instead minimizing and
denying that a genocide is going on. Genocide is a
phenomenon of gradual boundary pushing. Each increment must be accepted
by the parties with agency for the next to be reached.
Under the direction of CEO Aaron Gore, Linda Roth, and

(01:19:35):
quote Chief Feeding Officer Jose Andres, World Central Kitchen recklessly
endangered its personnel, selflessly exploited the situation for its own benefit,
and actively participated in the normalization of an ongoing genocide.

Speaker 5 (01:19:49):
I think what I want to say more broadly here
it's my stunts. I guess maybe other people sharre it, man,
they don't. This situation is not going to be solved
by NGOs, and it certainly not going to be solved
by NGOs which have this very explicitly neoliberal political agenda. Right, Like,
at best they can plug a hole in a leaky bucket,

(01:20:09):
and it's good when they do that. Right, if one
less person starves, that's good. It doesn't mean they don't
have to be perfect to help, but they don't get
to be exemptive from criticism because they're helping, right, Like
World's Central Kitchen didn't want to help us at the
border in Hucumber. My friends reached out. They didn't want
to do that. Yeah, I don't think you should expect
endios to share your your radical politics. It doesn't mean

(01:20:32):
that they can't do harm reduction, and it doesn't mean
that when they are doing harm reduction, they sometimes need
your money, and in the such situations where this is happening,
you should give it to them if you can't help
more directly. Right, But like you know, if we look
at their communications, we do see them calling for a
cease fire, which is about what you can expect from
an NGO, you know, we actually it appears that we

(01:20:55):
see Hosse Andrews calling for a ceasefire, and we see
World Central Kitchen saying Jsse andrew is for a ceasefire,
which I don't quite know why they don't just say
we are calling for a ceasefire. They didn't sign that
document with the other rango. It's like that. I don't
know if they're trying to play like have it both ways.
I don't know. I don't I'm not privy to those conversations. Right,
they didn't sort of wholeheartedly say this is the genocide

(01:21:16):
but they have to get permission for Israel to do stuff.
I mean, now they're saying it, but after the Trustee
that happened, the whole world is watching, right, Not that
the whole world shouldn't have been watching from the start,
but I don't think enos are ever going to be
you know, it's radical that there's people on the internet
want them for They're also they're doing stuff and people
on the internet aren't, so you know, we have to

(01:21:38):
respect that. And I don't want any of this to
take away from the fact that some people from all
over the world, right from Europe, from Australia, from the
United States, have died feeding people who need to be fed,
because that's the most any of us can give, is

(01:22:01):
our lives, right, And so I don't for a minute
want any of this to detract from the sacrifice they made.
No should their sacrifice be held in any higher regard
than the sacrifice made by hundreds, if not thousands of
Palestinian aid workers, right, people working for the Palestinian re Crescent,
a Palestinian even the Palestinian people working for International NGOs right,

(01:22:24):
or the United Nations people who have been killed, right,
None of the sacrifices it should be ignored or ound
mind because if people are certainly given a lot more
than I have, I don't have any right to say that.
I think, yeah, this organ it changes communications, right. I
think they've obviously realized that there is no nicely nicely

(01:22:44):
about this, like you have to call a spade a
space when it comes to what's happening in Gaza, which
is a deliberate and targeted campt to kill civilians, thousands
and tens of thousands of children even And I think
until we move the conversation onto where that is being
called by its name, that is to say, genocide, then

(01:23:05):
I don't think we'll see that the reactions that we need,
and I think they appear to have reflected on that.
I wish they've got there sooner, but they're there now,
and I'm sorry that it took these people's lives to
get there. But what I see from them is what
I see from other NGOs. It's not they're not certainly
not uniquely bad. In fact, they are better than very
many indios. And they were there when other people weren't,

(01:23:25):
and they're delivering food when other people weren't, So I
don't want, I don't want to distract from that. But yeah,
they're this messaging, this internal conduct, like there's somebody these
internal messages, they are traveling and like again, it's just
what i'd expect from any other NGO, whereas I've seen
these guys do things in many ways sort of better
than other angios, but none if that messaging takes away

(01:23:46):
from these people giving their lives, and I don't want
to suggest that.

Speaker 8 (01:23:50):
I think the most telling thing is that they're making
the biases of their the top people that work for
this company very evident. And the article goes into Linda
Roth's background and her pro Israeli stances in the past,
and the fact that in all the outwardly facing materials
about Gaza, it was very typical to change the word
siege to conflict or to question the blockades. It talks

(01:24:11):
about how the people at the very top their biases
just seeped through and the people that were actually working
for the organization were in disagreement with this. I think
the last thing I want to read from this article
just really highlights that WCK did not protect the people
that worked for them. It says, save the possibility of
genuine and competence, the WCK leadership's decisions were not made

(01:24:35):
to maintain neutrality, did not increase effectiveness, and as April
first demonstrated, did not protect personnel. The leadership's failure to
honestly portray the dire reality in Gaza and lack of
an attempt to influence the genocide in Gaza via its
status and close ties to the Bien administration means that
they bear responsibility for its outcomes. Let no one say

(01:24:58):
they did everything they could. And this is obviously talking
about the leadership versus the personnel. And then he goes
on to close the article saying that his experience is
one experience and when he resigned there was a palpable,
widespread atmosphere of disappointment among the staff and employees. And
he ends with just calling on current and former WCK employees, contractors,

(01:25:18):
and volunteers to publicly share their stories as well in
order to force accountability and change.

Speaker 5 (01:25:25):
Yeah, okay, if you work for a Central Kitchen, you
can message us hate to hear your stories that.

Speaker 8 (01:25:32):
Yeah, yeah, we wanted to make sure that this perspective
was shared. And again the article will be in the description,
so please give it a good read. But yeah, that
is the episode. Thanks for listening, Three pals done.

Speaker 1 (01:26:00):
Welcome back to It could Happen here a podcast about
things falling apart. And when things fall apart, one of
the things that happens is you get a bunch of
a lot of opportunities for a lot of weird little guys,
a lot of a lot of Nazis and other kinds
of scums start, you know, sliding up to the surface
in the hopes that they can get some of the sweet,

(01:26:21):
sweet oxygen of collapse. And that's why we've brought onto
the program and are bringing into the network our good
friend Molly Conger for a little recurrence series. I like
to call look who's stalking? That was the That was
the stocking joke. I'm wanted to open the episode with
my own journeys.

Speaker 11 (01:26:39):
I'm not stalking anyone. I would never do that. That
is a crime. This is reporting.

Speaker 1 (01:26:46):
It is reporting, and the line between reporting and stalking always.

Speaker 11 (01:26:49):
Clear, you know. I think it's it's on the publication. Yeah, yeah, so, Robert,
Today's topic is such a perfect mash up of so
many of my favorite things. It couldn't be more my
speed unless this whole story took place on a Wiener
dog ranch.

Speaker 1 (01:27:06):
Right. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:27:08):
This story has city council meetings that got rowdy. It
has unite the right attendee getting docks. It has the
internal calms of a hate group getting leaked. It has
regular ass people putting their foot down about hate in
their town. It is a year's long arc of one
man's journey from fucking around to finding out his evolution,
from chanting you will not replace us to getting replaced

(01:27:29):
at the ballot box. This is the story of Enid, Oklahoma,
Ward one City Commissioner Judson Gannon Blevins.

Speaker 1 (01:27:38):
Oh my god, ah, we're going back to my old home.

Speaker 11 (01:27:42):
That's why you spent some time in Oklahoma as a kid.
So jud Levins was raised in the town of en
in Oklahoma, and the listener, you'd be forgiven for thinking
this is the story of a small town. And I'll
be honest, I did. I'd never heard of Enid, but
you grew up in the area. Do you have any
sort of pre existing notions of gar Field County? Uh?

Speaker 1 (01:28:01):
Yeah, I mean Enid was like a bigger play. I
grew up in Ida Bell, which was really out in
the sticks, so kind of everywhere was more civilization than
Ida Bell, but Enid certainly was, although not much. No
one would no one would accuse it of much civilization.

Speaker 11 (01:28:18):
It is apparently the ninth largest city in Oklahoma, which
was surprising to me. It's an hour and a half
outside of Oklahoma City, seventy six percent white, sixty percent Republican,
and according to a twenty twenty one article on Yahoo
News that reads like it was written by an intoxicated chatbot,
it is ranked one of the most conservative cities in
the country.

Speaker 1 (01:28:38):
Yeah, that all scans for Enid, Jared, Now that scans
for a lot of cities in Oklahoma, mind you.

Speaker 11 (01:28:45):
Right, They could have named any of them. Yeah, but
it has a population of about fifty thousand, which is
actually the same size as Charlottesville, my hometown and a
city that Johnson Blevens happened to visit. In the summer
of twenty seventeen eighteen, the former US Marine moved back
to his hometown to work at his father's roofing business.
In twenty nineteen, he was publicly identified as a regional

(01:29:07):
leader in a white supremacist organization, and in twenty twenty
two he announced he was running for office.

Speaker 1 (01:29:15):
I mean that all that's a very Oklahoma politician route.
It's also like a not a white like, from from
roofing to white supremacy, not a wildly uncommon route for
people to take in Oklahoma.

Speaker 11 (01:29:28):
Now he's still doing both.

Speaker 5 (01:29:29):
Oh good.

Speaker 1 (01:29:29):
I mean, you never want to give up on your
passion for roofing. That would have made me sad.

Speaker 11 (01:29:34):
Although some of his supporters have pointed out that he
hires lots of non white people to do manual labor,
so how could he be racist?

Speaker 1 (01:29:40):
Yeah, I mean, you don't want to get up on
those roofs yourself. That's dangerous, Czarr. Yeah, it's hot out, Yeah,
this is all pretty Oklahoma so far.

Speaker 11 (01:29:48):
On February fourteenth, twenty twenty three, jud Levins narrowly won
a seat on the Eden City Council, defeating the incumbent
by just thirty six votes. His past ties the now
defunct white supremacist group Europa were no secret. Of course,
by twenty twenty three, Identity Europa didn't exist anymore. So
I don't blame you if you don't have a clear
memory of exactly what kind of Nazi group they were.

(01:30:09):
And I want to make it very clear. I don't
want time, distance and white polo shirts to soften this.
Identity Europa was a neo Nazi organization.

Speaker 1 (01:30:17):
Oh yeah. They were also just like the most infiltrated
group of the Trump era. Like of all the Nazi
orgs in the Trump era, I feel like they were
the one where every week someone else got inside their coms.

Speaker 11 (01:30:30):
Well, I guess Bluvin's maybe part to blame for that
as the regional coordinator.

Speaker 1 (01:30:35):
Oh good, so he was doing a great job.

Speaker 11 (01:30:38):
But Identity Europa was modeled after the far right French
identitarian movement and sought the creation of a white ethno state.
You will not replace us, chance you remember from Unite
the Right were actually popularized by Identity Europa at their
rallies earlier that year, and, according to testimony from a
former girlfriend, one time Identity Euroopa leader Elliot Klein considered
himself quote an unironic exterminationist, and he had violent fantasies

(01:31:03):
about killing Jewish people himself. So it's not just guys
hanging out right.

Speaker 1 (01:31:08):
No.

Speaker 11 (01:31:09):
Identity Europa was founded in twenty sixteen by Nathan Dimigo,
a former marine who went to prison after drunkenly pulling
a gun on a cab driver for quote looking iraqi.

Speaker 1 (01:31:20):
Well that gets at least he's honest.

Speaker 11 (01:31:26):
But while he was doing his time, he read David
Duke's autobiography.

Speaker 1 (01:31:31):
Oh and he.

Speaker 11 (01:31:33):
Had an awakening, right, he read My Awakening and he
had an awakening in prison. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know,
you go to prison for a hay crime, you read
a little David Duke, you get some ideas.

Speaker 1 (01:31:43):
Man, it it's not a good book. Like that's my
thing about having David Duke's autobiography be like your life
changing event, is it? It's not even a good book, right,
which I guess neither was mind comp but I feel
like everyone's lying about that one.

Speaker 11 (01:32:00):
According to some this is so off the beaten path here,
this is I have to say it. According to some
payments that came out in a divorce proceeding, David Duke
made payments to Kevin Strome for ghostwriting it. Kevin Strom
is the pedophile who actually said that thing that people
think full terror said about the Jews.

Speaker 1 (01:32:19):
Oh cool, yeah great.

Speaker 11 (01:32:24):
So just something to think about when you're reading David
Duke's autobiography in prison.

Speaker 1 (01:32:28):
I guess, I mean, I guess I had wondered what
happens to pedophiles, like when they're back out in the world, like,
how do.

Speaker 11 (01:32:35):
Your wife now? No that was before that was yeah, no,
he's got a kid now, so.

Speaker 1 (01:32:41):
Oh what, No, he shouldn't do that. Okay, great, not
a loved to live near a school. But I guess
they can't stop you from procreating. We should evaluate some
of that. I don't know.

Speaker 11 (01:32:52):
Anyway, back to our friend Nate, right, So, Nathan Amigo
gets out of prison, makes his own hate group. You
may also remember him as the guy who bravely beat
the shit out of a ninety five pound woman at
the rally in Berkeley in April of twenty seventeen. Oh yeah,
and they memed the hell out of that. They squeezed
it for all it was worth. That they used that
image of him beating that woman in the street for

(01:33:14):
promotion and recruitment. Dimigo himself touted a spike in membership applications,
which he attributed to the popularity of the video. Identity
Europa was heavily involved in the Summer of Hate, that
rash of violent white supremacist rallies across the country in
twenty seventeen. They were instrumental in planning as Unite the
Right rally.

Speaker 6 (01:33:31):
But when the.

Speaker 11 (01:33:32):
Group's discord server was leaked in March of twenty nineteen
and published in full by Unicorn Riot, their leader at
the time, Patrick Casey, quickly announced a rebrand, Identity Europa
is no more. They were the American Identity Movement now,
much to the displeasure of the American Indian Movement, whose
acronym they stole. But the rebrand was not successful and
the group died out completely in twenty twenty, and Casey

(01:33:54):
tried to pretend the rebrand wasn't just an attempt to
escape the fallout of the leak, but it really was
the leak that killed Identity Europa. At least seven active
duty military members were identified in the league. A school
resource officer at a high school in Virginia was suspended,
a Minnesota National Guardsman was recalled from basic training. So
jud Levins was just one of dozens of members of
the group to be identified in those chatlogs. The work

(01:34:16):
of anti fascist researchers who identified Blevins and the leak
chats was corroborated and published in an article on right
wing Watch by Jared Hult within weeks, and it's about
as solid as an idea as you could hope for
from a chatlog, or, depending on your position, the kind
of idea you really don't want. A user called Conway
was Identity Europa's regional coordinator for Oklahoma. He recruited and

(01:34:38):
vetted new members, organized outings for banner drops and social events,
and frequently posted pictures of the white supremacist propaganda he'd
been putting up, encouraging others to do the same, and
offering tips on how to create more effective visuals for
the group's online accounts. In over eleven hundred posts over
a nearly two year period, he left a lot of clues.

(01:34:58):
He posted a link to an article in his hometown paper,
the Enid News and Eagle. He posted a photo of
a relative's baby, details about his parents' lineage, his plans
to move home to work for his father's business, and
in the lead up to the Unite the Right rally,
he excitedly shared the discord that he would be carrying
the original flag of the state of Oklahoma, a red
rectangle with the number forty six inside of a white star,

(01:35:21):
and photos from the rally show just one man carrying
that distinctive flag that was designed by a member of
the Daughters of the Confederacy, jud Levins. As he grew
into his role as regional coordinator for Identity Europa, he
coordinated member meetups, getting several guys from Oklahoma to drive
down to Texas for a get together. Conway posted about
the meetup, and photos posted by other attendees show Blevins

(01:35:44):
standing shoulder to shoulder with other members holding a large
Identity Europa banner. Conway even posted about his appearance on
a twenty eighteen episode of Identity Europa's podcast, where he
emphasized the importance of staying in the You will not
replace us mindset. The time he announced his run for
office in twenty twenty two, it had been over three
years since he'd been out at as Conway, the Hate

(01:36:05):
Group member who attended the Unite the Right rally.

Speaker 1 (01:36:08):
And you could see why he would think it would work, right,
because that you will not replace us thing. It's become
like the mainstream Republican politics, right like this this ideology
has at least one in the Republican Party, but it's
also one divorced from these guys because even they are like,

(01:36:30):
they're too toxic for even the modern Republicans. Like it's remarkable,
but I also get why he thought this would work.

Speaker 11 (01:36:38):
And I think, I mean, I don't know what his
connection remained to other members of IE after it dissolved,
but towards the end of it, as it was dying, right,
So under Elliott Klein, you know, Klein wanted to make
a militia for Richard Spencer. He wanted to you know,
build IE into a fighting force. But under Patrick Casey,
they sort of moved back towards we should be trying

(01:36:59):
to influence inside of politics. We should be going to
colleges and getting you know, conservative students to become more base. Right,
so this is a rational course of conduct, I think
for where he was in twenty nineteen when Identity Europa died.
But in any case, by twenty twenty two, anybody in

(01:37:19):
Enid you could read his posts praising Hitler and celebrating
Identity Europa for striking fear into the heart of the
jew his words.

Speaker 7 (01:37:27):
You know.

Speaker 11 (01:37:27):
You could see pictures of him at Unite the Right,
both on the morning of the twelfth in the park
and the evening of the eleventh with a torch. You
could see pictures of him going to Texas for Ie meetups.
You could see the dozens and dozens of photos he
posted in the discord of Nazi posters and stickers he
had put up on telephone polls and college bulletin boards
across Oklahoma, and the posts where he reveled in the

(01:37:48):
media coverage of the recruitment materials he left inside library books.
His hometown newspaper, the Enid News and Eagle, ran an
article about the allegations, which he never denied. A month
before the election, and without ever having to give a
straight answer on the issue, he won, and that could
have been the end of the story. Right, You know,

(01:38:09):
we've seen this trend in the last few years of
these radical right wing elements trying to melt into the
mainstream Republican party. You know, we've got these horrible little
gropers working in congressional staff positions, and you know nazis
going to spack and not getting ejected. They're getting out
of the streets and into the meeting rooms.

Speaker 1 (01:38:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:38:26):
An account tied to blevins that he recently for the
first time denied this was him.

Speaker 6 (01:38:31):
It's him.

Speaker 11 (01:38:32):
This has been widely reported. It was a Twitter account
called at Abolish Journalism posted in twenty nineteen quote sts
I agree with the argument GOP cannot be changed from
the bottom up. However, I do not believe in discouraging
our guys from getting elected into smaller offices such as
city council, county commissioner, or even state legislators. Basically positions

(01:38:56):
where one can fly under the radar yet still be effective.
And that's what this is, right. This isn't a guy
who got out of White Nationals organizing and in an
unrelated fashion, became a local politician. No, he said years
before he did this that this was a good idea
that he had. You know, he never said I renounced
my previous actions and beliefs. I regret bringing an active

(01:39:18):
recruiter for a hate group. He just changed the way
he was doing it. And he said countless opportunities to
be clear about what he believes today and whether that's
different from the beliefs he espoused between twenty seventeen and
twenty nineteen, and he won't. He won't say I no
longer identify with the posts I made when I was
enthusiastically posting the fourteen words. And that's probably because he

(01:39:39):
just found a better way to do it. But there
were people in Enid, Oklahoma who saw right through that.

Speaker 1 (01:39:45):
Yeah, this is where the story takes a turn that like,
I don't know, it made me hopeful because the first
time I ever met a klansman was, you know, in Oklahoma.
It was the dad of a friend of mine. Like
he like that, this kid bragged about it, and I
didn't know what a klansman was. And I had to
go to my parents and like be like, hey, so

(01:40:07):
you know so and so said this about his dad.
What does that mean? And my mom was just like, well,
you're not allowed to go to his house anymore. That's
what that means, Juxes.

Speaker 6 (01:40:18):
Jesus Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:40:19):
If this like, if this guy had like, if shit
had gone well for him, I guess that would have
been my assumption. But that's that was my assumption based
on me not giving a fair shake to Enid, Oklahoma, Right.

Speaker 11 (01:40:31):
I think that's you know what's so remarkable about this
story is people didn't think Oklahoma could do it. But
you know who can accomplish everything they set out to do?

Speaker 1 (01:40:42):
Uh huh, that's right, these sponsors, all of whom are
available in Enid, Oklahoma, and we're back.

Speaker 11 (01:41:00):
Okay, alrighty, so I'm.

Speaker 1 (01:41:03):
Happy to hear. Yeah. The next part of this.

Speaker 11 (01:41:05):
Levins took office in May of twenty twenty three. Local
election law requires a six month wait between being sworn
in and when a recall attempt can be initiated, but
the residents who opposed Levins didn't wait quietly. A group
called the Enid Social Justice Committee protested his swearing in,
with some protesters holding posters bearing a photo of Blevins

(01:41:27):
holding a torch at the August eleven, twenty seventeen Nazi
march at the University of Virginia. And now this I
didn't even think about it until I was writing this
that what an incredible coincidence of timing. Right, So May
twenty twenty three, he's being sworn into office. It was
just I think maybe two weeks before he was sworn
in that the first indictment was unsealed against the guys

(01:41:51):
who are now facing felony charges for participating in that
torch march. Right, so it was we did an episode
on this a little bit ago. But if you're not
familiar that the guys who marched in that torch march
at Eva in twenty seventeen, some of them are now
being charged with a felony under Virginia law for burning
an object with intent to intimidate. It's obviously a sort
of a law aimed at the Klan, right, sort of

(01:42:13):
a crossburning type law. But they were burning, they have
these burning objects, and they were menacing people. It was
racially motivated. So they're being charged with this felony for
burning an object.

Speaker 1 (01:42:23):
It does feel like that's, yeah, a pretty good fit.

Speaker 11 (01:42:27):
But so right as he's being sworn in, you know,
these people are protesting his swearing in with this photo
of him with the torch and a couple guys just
showed up in jail here in Charlottesville on that charge.
So it's it's just a remarkable cognitive dissonance, right to
see these people. Some of his supporters in Enid downplaying
the seriousness or even outright denying that Levin's attended this rally,

(01:42:50):
But the guys he was standing next to that day
are pleading guilty to felonies. You know, he's up there
voting on resolutions and passing ordinances about you know, storm
water management or whatever. Or I think one of his
accomplishments in office was getting a Texas roadhouse in Enid.

Speaker 1 (01:43:05):
First off, you shouldn't be proud of having a Texas
roadhouse anywhere as a my job used to it might
have been a Sizzler.

Speaker 11 (01:43:13):
I can't remember something like that.

Speaker 1 (01:43:15):
I would be much more excited for a Sizzler than
a Texas fucking roadhouse, I'll say that much.

Speaker 11 (01:43:20):
But you know he's up there getting a you know,
affordable chain steak restaurant in Edid. But there's a non
zero chance that he could be arrested at any time
and extradited on a felony charge.

Speaker 1 (01:43:32):
I mean, look, if there's one thing that's appropriate for
the sizzler. It's knowing that the guy who put that
sizzler there could be arrested on a felony charge at
any moment.

Speaker 11 (01:43:43):
And you know, we don't know what the strategy is
at the prosecutor's office. Obviously they're not going to charge
everybody who is there. But it's on the table right
Like he's on video at that march with the torch
in his hand. He fits the criteria for the ten
other guys that have already gone to jail for this.
But in November of twenty twenty three, those six months
had passed, recalls on the table now, and before the

(01:44:04):
group made the final push to actually file for the recall,
they made an offer of reconciliation. All Blevin's has to
do is acknowledge the truth, denounce his past actions, just
own up to it, start making amends. Just say yes
I did that, No, I don't do it anymore. And
he can't do it. Throughout this entire ordeal, he's never

(01:44:25):
owned up to it. There are pictures and video and
his own words across multiple online accounts. There's no plausible
deniability here. There's no saying, well, maybe that's not him.
You know, it's him, so just admit it and say
you're not that guy anymore. But he has consistently refused
to even acknowledge it right on several occasions, you know,
when really pressed, he dismisses that twenty nineteen article by

(01:44:49):
Jared Holt as quote a hit piece posted four years
ago by a George Soros funded leftist outlet, calling it
smears and slander.

Speaker 1 (01:44:58):
Nothing smears somebody like there their own words and actions.

Speaker 11 (01:45:01):
I'm being defamed by this photograph of me.

Speaker 1 (01:45:04):
I'm being judged simply for the things i chose to do.

Speaker 11 (01:45:08):
I thought this was America. But he won't actually deny
specific facts. You know, he won't say that isn't me
in the photo, or I did not participate in that,
or I did not post those nice things about Hitler.
He just attacks the people saying it. And while Levens
has never denied the truth of the allegations, some of
his supporters do. At one of those council meetings in

(01:45:32):
November of last year, a woman speaking in support of
Levins said the allegations weren't credible as they came from
organizations like the SPLC that quote only exist to smear
conservative Christians.

Speaker 1 (01:45:44):
There we go.

Speaker 11 (01:45:46):
First of all, the SPLC didn't publish it. It was
Wright Wing Watch, Yeah, Huffington Post, but whenever Susan. And
it was at that same meeting that the council declined
to even vote on a resolution to censure Blevins. The
council was putting forth a resolution to say we don't
agree with what that guy did. You know, it wasn't
like punishing him. It didn't actually strip him of any powers.

(01:46:08):
He didn't do anything except say the rest of us
we don't like that. And they could, they wouldn't even
vote on it. It got tabled. And at that meeting, Commissioner
Derwin Norwood, the only black member of Enid City Council,
offered Blevins his forgiveness and gave him a big hug
and told him he loved him.

Speaker 6 (01:46:27):
Great.

Speaker 11 (01:46:27):
Levan's never apologized, right, you can't forgive someone who hasn't apologized.
He had never and still has never apologized. And he
was pretty clear on where he stands on apology, saying
I am not going to apologize for the lies that
others tell. Yeah, it was a great meeting. I watched

(01:46:47):
it from home. I had you know, I love I
love a meeting.

Speaker 1 (01:46:50):
Oh yeah, no, that's uh. I mean, I don't understand it,
but I respect it.

Speaker 11 (01:46:57):
So, with their peace offering roundly rejected by an unapologetic Blevins,
they moved forward the recall. The Enid Social Justice Committee
gathered enough signatures to put it to a vote, and
in January, Cheryl Patterson threw her hat into the ring
to replace Blevins. And to be clear, this is still Enid, Oklahoma,
where sixty percent of voters are registered Republicans. This wasn't

(01:47:17):
some liberal coup. Patterson is also a lifelong Republican candidate
formed the week before the election, Patterson was quick to
say like right off the bat, the second she opened
her mouth, she said, contrary to the rumor, I was
not recruited by the Enid Social Justice Committee. And she said,
you know, she'd been thinking about running for a while.
She loves Enid, but she was pushed to action by

(01:47:39):
her opponent's inability to clearly denounce his past involvement with
a white supremacist group. And it is remarkable right to
see conservative Republicans in the South saying like that Nazi
stuff is too much for me.

Speaker 1 (01:47:53):
Yeah, I mean, and that's like that's actually an important
part of turning shit back is getting these people who
are otherwise conservative to draw a line and actually hold
to it, because it it at least arrests that right
word momentum to an extent. And we're just not going
to get out of this unless we have some of

(01:48:15):
that right.

Speaker 11 (01:48:16):
I'm not living in a you know, in a fantasy
land where the city of Enid, Oklahoma is represented by
a council of six socialists like that, that's not on
the table. I accept that, but at least their Republicans
can say, ah, the fourteen words is like not my vibe.

Speaker 1 (01:48:32):
Yeah, literally, participating in a white supremacist terrorist action is
a line for us, and I'm glad there's a line,
so you know.

Speaker 11 (01:48:42):
She says she was inspired to run for office because
he not because of what he did, but because he
couldn't even denounce it, right that. You know, people can
grow and change. I pray that his heart moves, but
he's unable to even denounce it, and he really does
seem incapable. The very first question at that forum the
week before the line was about this. Obviously a lot

(01:49:03):
of the questions were, and he gave another non denial. Right,
he said, this election is about the next three years
of this city, not about organizations that disbanded five years ago.
But he went on to say that he would quote gladly,
plead guilty to speaking out against what is being done
to this country and the anti white hatred in the media.

(01:49:25):
So he tries to talk around the issue, saying, you know,
he was just advocating for the same policies that got
Donald Trump elected. But it's not like he was on
the local Republican committee, right, He wasn't working on a
GOP campaign. He was an organizer for a group that
supported those policies of the Trump administration explicitly because they
believe those policies were a stepping stone towards the full

(01:49:46):
Nazification of American politics. Right, you know, the relationship between
those two things troubling concerning. But you can't pretend there's
no difference between voting Republican and holding a torch at
the Nazi parade. And that's what he's trying to do here.
He's trying to blur that lines. You know, I'm just
being punished for being a proud conservative. And it's like,

(01:50:07):
which which part right people who's you know people who
want free speech, and it's like, well, which word do
you want to say? And at no point during this
recall campaign, from when they announced it in November to
the election two weeks ago now, at no point during
this recall campaign did he publicly denounce any of the
white supremacists who supported him. Outlets like v Dare, a

(01:50:30):
white nationalist publication run by an English born anti immigration
race scientists who lives in a castle in West Virginia,
wrote fawning editorials which were promoted by prominent white nationalists,
including Identity Europa founder Nathan Dimigo. Fascist telegram channels provided
guidance to subscribers about Oklahoma's campaign finance laws, which would
allow them to donate to Blevins's campaign anonymously as long

(01:50:53):
as they kept it under fifty dollars. According to reporting
by Christmathias and Huntington Post, a man in Tech who
runs a business with a known Patriot Front member donated
nearly two thousand dollars to the campaign, which made up
the bulk of the donated cash. And you might give
him the benefit of the doubt and say, well, maybe
he didn't know he was being endorsed by some of

(01:51:13):
the largest elements in organized white supremacy in America.

Speaker 6 (01:51:16):
Sure, but he did he did know.

Speaker 11 (01:51:21):
As a member of the city council, he definitely saw
the letters that were addressed to the city Council in
support of Blevins from the American Freedom Party, an explicitly
white supremacist political party that occasionally runs a Nazi for president.
But he said nothing. And when a constituent, father James Neil,
asked him directly why his campaign was funded by members
of Patriot Front, he told the priest to quote, shut

(01:51:42):
up again. He chose the company of neo Nazis, Holocaust deniers,
white supremacists, white nationalists, and ethno state enthusiasts. How can
you expect people to believe you're not that guy anymore
when you have their public praise, their endorsement, and their
money in your pocket. But you know who does not
have two thousand dollars in cash from Patriot Front in

(01:52:04):
their pockets?

Speaker 1 (01:52:06):
No, I know they keep that shit in the back.
I mean, they don't have it. Here's here's our sponsors,
and we're back.

Speaker 11 (01:52:25):
So on April second, that's two weeks ago.

Speaker 12 (01:52:28):
Now.

Speaker 11 (01:52:28):
As we're recording, the people of Enid returned to the
polls and jud Blevins was voted out of office as
Ward one City Commissioner by a vote of eight hundred
and twenty nine to five sixty one. And I don't
know if you're a math guy. I'm not a math guy.
I a calculator. Out for this bad boy. But this
turnout was significantly larger than the vote that put him
into office. A seventy two percent increase in total votes.

(01:52:51):
That's a lot. Yeah, that's a lot more people who
showed up to you know, an off cycle special election.

Speaker 1 (01:52:59):
Yeah. Yeah, that's specifically weird.

Speaker 11 (01:53:02):
And unlike the slim margin of just thirty six votes
that won him the twenty twenty three election, he lost
the recall by nearly twenty points. That's a spankin. You know,
it's hard to chalk a loss like that up to
a lunatic fringe, right, That's that's the electorate speaking. But
Matthew Gibert, a former State Department employee who lost his
job for failing to disclose his active involvement in white

(01:53:24):
supremacist organizing, noted in his telegram channel that while the
loss is disappointing, an open white nationalist winning forty percent
of the vote is quote, nothing to despair over, and
you never got a hand out to the guy who
hosts a podcast about the joys of Nazi fatherhood or whatever. Yeah,
but the numbers are what they are. You know, he

(01:53:45):
did win forty percent of the vote, and this was
after months of very public debate in the national spotlight
that made it impossible not to know what the allegations were.
And it's not like these were just diehard conservatives who
had walk into the voting booth and put their check
mark next to wherever the letter R was right in
this election, the other name on the ticket was a

(01:54:07):
Republican too, Like, these were people who walked in there
and knowingly and intentionally cast their vote for a guy
who used to vet new members for a Nazi club.
This isn't a fairy tale, it's reality, right. This wasn't
an offensive win by progress or the left or what
have you. This was an effective defense And I hope

(01:54:27):
conservatives can see a little lesson here, right, Like the
story is too often one of ever ratcheting extremism. You
can only win if you go further, if you go wilder,
if you're appealing to the people who are on the
absolute extreme end of what's acceptable to say in the party.
But this was a case where a fellow conservative said, Hey,
I want to take some books out of the library too.
I'm not a liberal, but we just can't be out

(01:54:49):
here saying the fourteen words, right. And I think some
of the buzz around this story comes from people in
bigger cities or bluer states. I mean, honestly, I'm of
this as well, who were shocked that, you know, purple
haired liberals and progressive clergy even exist in a place
like Enid, Oklahoma. But this red state blue state dichotomy

(01:55:11):
is a myth. Most places are purple, most places are
sixty forty. Even in places that reliably one hundred percent
of the time vote Republican, there's still a large minority
of people who are not represented by that. So even
in a place like Enid, which is Republican at the polls,
you have a pretty big chunk of the population isn't

(01:55:32):
represented on that two colored map. That doesn't mean they
don't care. And when I watched those Enid city council meetings,
I saw Charlottesville.

Speaker 2 (01:55:40):
Right.

Speaker 11 (01:55:41):
I've gone to every city council meeting in Charletsville for
the last seven years. Like, I know what it looks
like for people in a town that size to show
up and say, what the fuck, what the fuck are
you doing to us?

Speaker 7 (01:55:52):
Right?

Speaker 11 (01:55:52):
Yeah, you know it looked like one of our meetings.

Speaker 6 (01:55:55):
You know.

Speaker 11 (01:55:56):
I saw regular people, moms and students and grandmas and
teachers and ladies who bring muffins to the church bake sale.
People who know that their town can do better than
to be represented by a guy who won't apologize for
attending the largest Nazi rally on US soil in our lifetimes.

Speaker 1 (01:56:11):
Yeah, and I feel a lot for the folks who
are kind of not represented by either of the two
big lines on the political map, and maybe most of
the time feel like I don't know what the fuck
I can actually do or should do, but I know
this Nazi shouldn't be in office.

Speaker 11 (01:56:29):
So these were just these were just regular people. These
weren't party apperatics or you know, this wasn't the Democrat
party doing this, as wasn't the Republican party doing this.
These were just people who didn't think that a Nazi
should be their city commissioner. And that's I think another
myth at play here, right, is that activist is some
sort of separate class of person, that there is some

(01:56:50):
portion of the population whose only goal in life is
this nebulous, nefarious thing called activism. That you know, it's
sort of this boogeyman of the professional troublemaker. And throughout
this process, Blevins and his supporters have smeared the group
organizing the recall, the Ined Social Justice Committee, is some
kind of fringe radical group. They're Antifa, they're freaks, They're
not like us. They're coming for our children. His recall

(01:57:14):
campaign website called the petitioners an unhinged group of left
wing fringe activists. And the campaign website didn't say what
he could do for you. It attacked the petitioners and
said this is what they will do to you. And
I've seen this in my own city council meetings, right,
this sort of bizarre tendency of those in power to
write off the people they don't want to hear from

(01:57:35):
as activists. Well, those are people we need to listen to.
Those are activists. That's a different kind of person. Anyone
who's asking for something they don't want to do, something
that's uncomfortable, something that requires them to look inward, or
look at the structures they're upholding. They undergo this instant
metamorphosis from constituent to activists. This is no longer a

(01:57:57):
voter or a constituent. This is a crazy person. This
person isn't your neighbor anymore. They're an activist.

Speaker 4 (01:58:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (01:58:04):
I think you know, there are people who wear that
mantle proudly, and why shouldn't they. It's a usually positive thing.
But the use of the word as some sort of
delegitimizing cudgel is so consistent that I think it's worth
thinking about when it gets used against the recipient's will. Yeah,
and there's no ending to this story, right, because this

(01:58:28):
is never really over. It is happening here, it is
happening there. And I don't know what's next for Blevins.
Maybe he just smelts quietly back into society and puts
roofs on houses. A week after the recall, he filed
paperwork to change the name of his dad's contracting business
from Invincible Contracting to Great Planes Roofing. The paperwork filed

(01:58:49):
shows that the company is now registered. The company is
now registered. His address a house in Enid that he
bought last summer, with a VA loan. But now that
he's free of the self imposed recons train of running
for office, maybe he leans into it and becomes this guy. Right,
Maybe he's just the guy that this happens to, and
he goes on the cancel culture grievance circuit. Maybe he

(01:59:11):
goes full throttle and tries to get back into movement organizing.
I think his failure to come out and really celebrate
the movement and really own it and say yes, I
said that stuff and it's good. I think that failure,
as they would perceive it, would hurt him a little
bit if he tries to re enter the movement, but
not so badly that he couldn't do it. You know,

(01:59:32):
they're so desperate for new material that they would probably
embrace him if he wanted to be the figurehead of
the month. Yeah, hopefully he just does the roofing thing though.

Speaker 1 (01:59:40):
Yeah, yeah, hopefully he does the roofing thing and then
the falling off the roof thing, and then you.

Speaker 11 (01:59:46):
Know he's that they're doing the work himself. He doesn't
even have a contracting license, I checked.

Speaker 1 (01:59:51):
I hope he hires someone who is like a very
large person and they fall off and are okay because
they land on him. That's that's I think where I'm.

Speaker 11 (02:00:01):
Going here, And to be clear, that's Robert speaking.

Speaker 1 (02:00:05):
Yeah, yeah, that is, But that is also the official
opinion of iHeartMedia.

Speaker 11 (02:00:11):
Mean, I don't know that he's he's made any great pronouncements.
He hasn't showed up on any Nazi podcast yet. I
will put ten dollars on a bet that says he will.
He'll be on somebody's podcast by the end of the month.
I don't doubt it. But hopefully he just does roofing.

Speaker 1 (02:00:26):
Yeah, stick to roofing.

Speaker 11 (02:00:29):
As for ENID, you know, they want a battle that
they shouldn't have had to fight. It should be kind
of a no brainer that we don't elect guys like this.
That's becoming less certain every day, Like the fact that
there was any question about how the recall might go
is concerning. We shouldn't be in a position of wondering
will people vote for the guy who won't deny he
loves Hitler. But I think we can applaud the tenacity

(02:00:51):
of the folks in Enan who did what was necessary
in a place where it wasn't easy. Yeah, you know,
and there's there's lessons to be learned here. Go to
the meetings, get a seed and sit council chambers. Go
to the library board meeting, go to the school board meeting.
You don't have to be an activist, whatever that means,
but be in the room because nobody's going to change
the world on their own. And maybe changing the world

(02:01:13):
isn't even a meaningful objective. I don't know what that means. Yeah,
but today, maybe there's something you can do with your
neighbors to stop the rising tide in your town. You
can't change the weather, but you can put down some sandbags.
And there are jud blevins Is everywhere, hiding behind mealy

(02:01:33):
mouthed rhetoric of conservatism and quietly chipping away at your
local institutions.

Speaker 1 (02:01:40):
Yeah, so it's doable, fighting the juds Blevin of I
chose a different way to Pluraliza's name of your wherever
you live, your state, your city. Like is doable, and
it's doable if you stick to this very simple platform
of like, but not a Nazi. Right, we can agree

(02:02:01):
not a Nazi.

Speaker 11 (02:02:02):
You know, if conservatives have any if conservatives had any sense,
they could retake a lot of ground by saying like
you know, we love all the stuff you love, fellow conservatives,
but we're not that guy, right, Like, if they had
any if they had any pride, they would stop pandering
to the lunatic fringe.

Speaker 1 (02:02:24):
Yeah, and it is just kind of looking at how
congressional race is shaping up, where it seemed like it
should have been pretty easy for them to retake the house.
But you know, now they're kind of like flailing a
little bit, in part because they keep backing these maniacs
who just aren't good. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:02:46):
I don't really believe that those ideas are popular. They
just have fallen into this trap of thinking like this
is the only way to win. So I guess I
have to do it.

Speaker 1 (02:02:55):
But you'll send it not that house anyway, whatever, we'll
cut that.

Speaker 11 (02:02:58):
Who cares about those guys. Yeah, but you don't have
to do it, right, Be the Sheeryl Batterson you want
to see in the world. Yeah, and just be a
milk toast Republican and be the Nazi.

Speaker 1 (02:03:09):
Yeah, at least. I don't know. I'm mixed because, like
I do, I do like it when the Republicans fail
over much, but I also feel like it's bad to
take the bet of like, well, if we hope for
more nazis that push people away from the Republicans, maybe
it'll work for us in the long run. Statistically that

(02:03:30):
that kind of gamble is real dangerous. Yeah, yeah, that's Enid,
that's inened Baby, good working.

Speaker 11 (02:03:42):
Congratulations to the end Social Justice Committee. Honestly, I'm yeah,
very impressed.

Speaker 1 (02:03:48):
You get our coveted Oklahoma City of the Month award,
which is confusing because you are very near Oklahoma City.
But they shouldn't have named it that. Well, that's all
I got.

Speaker 11 (02:04:01):
That's all I got. Yeah, I was trying to put
a button, trying to put a button on that bad boy.
But uh yeah that's Oklahoma baby.

Speaker 1 (02:04:08):
Yeah, good for you, Good for Oklahoma.

Speaker 6 (02:04:25):
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. On
this show, we try to apply political and cultural analysis
towards speculative futurity. What can we learn about the future
by looking at how our present relates to our past
and now? As we approach a whole decade of a
resurgent far right gaining cultural prominence, we're entering a moment

(02:04:45):
in time where pop culture and media is starting to
catch up to the current political zeitgeist. Our media landscape
is inundated with depictions of unreality, political extremism, collapse, and
rising civil tensions. Some of these succeed more than but
most are still deeply neoliberal in their depictions. The Obama
produced a Netflix movie from last year, Leave the World Behind,

(02:05:08):
was a speculative look at a collapse orchestrated to jumpstart
a second American Civil war. Alex Garland's voyeuristic civil war
movie just released, which sort of gestures at politics with
offhand mentions of portlaind maoists and the Antifa massacre. But
as a movie, it completely fails to understand the moment
we currently occupy, and I believe is even more out

(02:05:30):
of touch than the Obama collapse movie, but we're not
talking about that today. For my thoughts on that, you
can look up my review on Letterboxed and refer to
the reviews I liked for a more robust critique of
Garland's deeply troubling depiction of quote unquote neutral war journalism
as uncritically virtuous. Instead, this episode will be turning to
a depiction of modern da extremism that I'm not sure

(02:05:54):
is better. It's still deeply neoliberal and honestly more overtly copaganda,
but one that I still find more interesting and I
believe does understand our political moment much better than Alex
Garland does, who comes off as less and less intelligent
in every single interview he does. Last month, the television

(02:06:14):
show Law and Order did an episode focusing on Robert
Rundo's far right fitness groups, the White supremacist Active Clubs.
To discuss, I am joined by longtime far right researcher
Molly Conger.

Speaker 11 (02:06:27):
Hello, Molly, Hey, thanks for having me on. And you
probably didn't know this about me. I am a secret
enjoyer of police procedurals, so I've actually watched a lot
of Law and Order.

Speaker 6 (02:06:37):
I have never seen a single episode of Law and
Order until this week, so I was really inundated. I
don't know. I watch a lot of kind of troubling media, though,
and media that tries to comment on current political extremism,
and often when I talk with my friends about my
interest in viewing things like this episode, I get confused

(02:06:59):
or even adversarial reactions, and I do truly understand their hesitations.
Pop culture media like this is often very sensational, turning
very real pain trauma and death caused by the far
right into this form of kind of mindless entertainment and
often reifying the role of good government and good cops
to maintain order against racist insurgents, even though more and

(02:07:23):
more of their ilk begin to occupy public office and
become cops themselves. But politics and culture are hand in hand.
Lots of what became the al Right grew out of
gamer gait, and I think there is a real use
in understanding how the political activities of fascists and anti
fascists are depicted in mass media. I believe there is

(02:07:43):
some value in knowing what NBC and the writers of
Law and Order think in Active club is as like
a sort of cultural litmus test, and also to see
how well people like us are doing in trying to
educate about these types of groups. But I totally understand
that not everyone wants to suffer through a forty minute
Lawn Order episode about cops beating the Nazis, So instead

(02:08:06):
I will watch it for you and talk about exactly
how they depicted this with Molly here today. So I
think the most efficient way for me to do this
is to kind of give a recap of the episode
and as I start going through it, we will discuss
a certain points. I can't just summarize all of it
in like a short paragraph. I mean I could. I
just think that would miss out on a lot of stuff.

(02:08:27):
So instead, we're going to go through the episode and
comment as things happen. And this episode ends up being
about a lot more than just an active club. It's
actually pulling from a few other influences that we will
talk about probably towards the end. Anyway, that felt sloppy
to me.

Speaker 11 (02:08:45):
I feel like they try to tackle several specific like
I don't know how familiar are with with the Law
and Order franchise, but they call these episodes the ripped
from the headlines episodes, right where they take a real life,
high profile case and write an episode about it. But
they tried to combine several elements that I felt didn't
blend well, and it deep the more material to work

(02:09:06):
with than they were able to address, and so it
just felt I just felt unresolved to me.

Speaker 6 (02:09:11):
I mean, I assume lots of these police procedurals are
kind of undercooked, as like pieces of art.

Speaker 11 (02:09:18):
I mean, the Dick Wolf extended universe is churning out
so much content that like, I don't know how they're
still doing it. I mean, Olivia Benson has been on
television since I was a child.

Speaker 6 (02:09:30):
So let's get into the actual episode. The cold open begins.
It's night in New York City. A nervous looking white
woman enters a subway station, and she's startled by a
sleeping homeless man. As the subway approaches, eerie music starts playing.
The anxious woman walks onto the subway and a black
man cat calls her as a group of other men

(02:09:51):
kind of join in. The woman quickly switches to a
more empty subway car, where she then bumps into another
black man whose eyes look kind of vacant and has
make weird grunting noises, and then the man appears to
lunge towards the woman. We cut to crime scene tape
stretched across the subway station. Two police detectives to enter
the subway car, where a dead body lies on the ground.

(02:10:14):
But it's not the scared white woman. It's the oddly
grunting black man who appears to have been strangled to
death with no apparent witnesses. He's identified as twenty four
year old Ellis Joyner, a stand up comedian who A
detective says, quote came from down South, love to talk
about how much he loved New York. The other detective remarks,
great place to live, not such a great place to die.

(02:10:36):
Cut the title screen with music that I assume has
not been updated in like thirty years, because the actual
it sounds so so nineties.

Speaker 11 (02:10:49):
They can't change it.

Speaker 6 (02:10:50):
Now.

Speaker 11 (02:10:51):
There are thousands of episodes of the show Garrison, It's history.

Speaker 6 (02:10:55):
So already with the cold open, we have like, ooh,
the dangerous subway, scary homeless people, this poor white woman.
A lot of stuff's being thrown at.

Speaker 11 (02:11:03):
Us, right and obviously playing on the idea that like, oh,
the white woman is going to be under that, but
that sheet, like that's going to be her body.

Speaker 6 (02:11:10):
Totally totally So, as we returned to the episode, a
forensic pathologist says the man died after being put in
a quote unquote sleeper hold, which cut off oxygen to
his brain. His medical records reveal he also had severe asthma,
and his hyperinflated lungs indicate he was currently suffering an
asthma attack when he was killed by the lethal chokehold.
In the fifty minute window for a time of death.

(02:11:31):
The train passed through six subway stations, four of which
all had broken cameras.

Speaker 11 (02:11:38):
Which is supposed to remind the viewer that we really
need to fund the subway cops.

Speaker 6 (02:11:42):
Correct. A lot of this episode is about how subway
surveillance is under equipped to deal with crime. And we
could probably fix a lot of problems if there was
more security cameras in the subway.

Speaker 11 (02:11:54):
Or just one hundred cops. What if they put one
hundred cops on there.

Speaker 6 (02:11:57):
Sure, or more cops and like to my, the subway
in New York City historically has not had security cameras
inside the actual train cars, though they are expected to
by twenty twenty six. But like the light rail in Portland,
the kind of like not not subway, but like the
Public Transits train in Atlanta, they all have cameras inside

(02:12:18):
the actual train cars. I was surprised that the subway
in New York did not. I just I just never
knew that. Anyway. Back to law and order, Ellis Joiner's
credit card identified the station that he got on at,
which also had broken cameras, but police pulled streetcam footage
from a few blocks away, which shows Joyner getting into
a fight with another comedian where Joyner got punched. The

(02:12:40):
other man is recognized as Malcolm Paige, a stand up
who quote used to open for Chappelle back in the
day unquote, so already setting up something fantastic. The detectives
interview Page and show him social media footage of Joiners
is set from last night, making fun of Page for
being old and irrelevant. Page says that verbally attacked him

(02:13:02):
because Joiner quote got his panties in a twist unquote
over some of Page's jokes quote hit too close to
home for fancy boy unquote. And when Page says fancy boy,
he does this little shaky hand thing, which the detective
asks if that's supposed to imply that Joyner is gay,
which the older comedian says, yes.

Speaker 11 (02:13:24):
I mean I've seen this sort of like limpressed hand
movie this.

Speaker 6 (02:13:29):
Did it did? It was just like a weird like
shaking like hand, like fancy you.

Speaker 11 (02:13:34):
Sort of shake your hand side to side when you
mean like kind of or maybe exactly exactly hand movie.
It was your homophobic gestures, right, it was.

Speaker 6 (02:13:42):
It was really weird. I found this whole interaction kind
of bizarre.

Speaker 11 (02:13:46):
And unnecessary, like you write in this kind of red
herring when you're trying to fill time. But they had plenty,
they had plenty of script. They didn't need this.

Speaker 6 (02:13:54):
This episode's so focused on different forms of racism, so
much adding in this like weird gay subplot to doesn't
It doesn't end up going anywhere, and it's just kind
of bizarre. So anyway, this basically, this older comedian was
telling homophobic jokes. Joiner then made fun of him on stage,
and this older comedian Page assaulted him outside. Page then
left in an uber and Joiner ran off with his boyfriend, who,

(02:14:17):
according to Paige, weren't getting along either. So there's some
kind of like like God, a new suspect arises exactly exactly.
So police look through Joiner's emails and texts in the
cloud quote unquote, and can't find any record of a boyfriend,
making detectives surmise that he must have been in the closet,

(02:14:38):
which is a baffling thing to surmise. Cops then contact
quote the Traveler app. That's that's Traveler spelled.

Speaker 11 (02:14:47):
T r a v l R. You have to cut
out a vowel or it's not an apple.

Speaker 6 (02:14:53):
So legally not Grinder gives NYPD complete access to Joiner's account, and.

Speaker 11 (02:15:00):
I'm sorry, Like, are gay male sex apps usually like
pink and purple. The color scheme is pink and purple.

Speaker 6 (02:15:07):
Yeah, not my experience, but yeah, I think it's also
a referenced to like like travelers, like fellow travelers, right right,
it was obviously supposed to be Grinder, but it's it's
just Grinder. It doesn't matter, but cop legally not Grinder
gives NYPD full access to Joiner's account, which shows he's
dating a guy named Michael Zain. And this, this whole

(02:15:28):
thing is, this whole thing's so wild because if you're
dating someone, you should not be primarily communicating through Grinder.

Speaker 11 (02:15:35):
And he said later they've been dating for six six months,
six months, They've never texted, they're just using Grinder to chat.

Speaker 6 (02:15:41):
Whenever you go on Grinder, the goal is to get
off of Grinder as soon as possible. Why why would
privately texting each other instead out you as gay anymore
than having an identifiable Grinder profile?

Speaker 11 (02:15:55):
Do I feel like having Grinder up on your phone
and it has a very distinctive like text tone, Like
that's way more likely to out you dog just text
regular exactly.

Speaker 6 (02:16:03):
It makes no sense anyway. The traveler messages between Joyner
and Michael Zain indicate a sort of ongoing fight or argument.
Now Zain has a prior conviction for aggravated assault last year.

Speaker 11 (02:16:15):
They didn't actually, so I went back and I went
back and double check this because I have some beef.

Speaker 6 (02:16:19):
He doesn't have a care.

Speaker 11 (02:16:20):
They said he was arrested for assault last year.

Speaker 6 (02:16:23):
He was just charged. He wasn't connected at my mistake, yes,
but also the episode does not make that very clear.

Speaker 11 (02:16:28):
No, because I have a reason. I went back and
checked because it makes no sense.

Speaker 6 (02:16:32):
So, yeah, his boyfriend was charged last year for aggravated assault.
So the detectives pay him a visit because they think
he's like a suspect.

Speaker 7 (02:16:39):
Right.

Speaker 6 (02:16:40):
Zain says that he didn't kill Joyner, he loved him,
and that their fight on the night of the murder
was about to Joiner's own self hatred and Zay believing
that things would be better if they could just live
openly as a couple, but Joyner was concerned that it
would threaten his comedy career. Zain maintained nothing ever got
physical between each other and explained that his assault charge
was from trying to break up a bar fight, but

(02:17:01):
when the cops arrived, they targeted Zane because he was black,
to which the two NYPD detectives nod solemnly.

Speaker 11 (02:17:10):
They're like, yeah, that does sound like something we would do.

Speaker 6 (02:17:13):
Yeah, other cops are racist, but not us. They're like okay.
Zain claims that Joyner wanted time alone, so he got
off the train a few stops before and went home,
but mentions that there was a white guy with short
brown hair, bright yellow sneakers, and a hoodie with some
kind of symbol on the back who was looking weirdly
at him and Joiner. Security camera footage shows someone matching

(02:17:37):
that description exiting the train car one stop before Joyner's
body was found, and one of the detectives recognizes the symbol.
We will learn more about this mysterious hoodie, sneaker, and
symbol after this adbreak. So I first, I just want

(02:18:04):
to describe what this symbol is. It's it is. It's
this octagon with spiky corners and like two k's facing
like like like one facing backwards. Yeah, one one facing
forward with one facing backwards, but smushed together and the
shared middle pillar is like an arrow pointing upwards.

Speaker 11 (02:18:25):
It looked like nothing to me.

Speaker 6 (02:18:26):
They tried to desire something that looked vaguely racist, but
it's just not. It just it just looks dumb.

Speaker 11 (02:18:34):
It looks like I don't like a tech company logo
or something like. Yeah, it is not evoke anything for me.

Speaker 6 (02:18:39):
No, it's it's not good. They're trying to make it
scary with like lots of like different like angles, but
like it's it's it's not. It's not scary anyway. The
detectives arrive at an MMA gym in Chelsea called the
Kovak Academy. It opened about a year ago and they've
been peppering the neighborhood with flyers. Well, that sounds familiar,
extremely accurate. The cops are graded by jacked staff member

(02:19:01):
with a shaved head, and they asked to speak with
the owner, and this skinhead employee says that they just
missed him. But there's a picture on the wall of
the owner holding a trophy and he's wearing the exact
outfit in the subway security footage. The detectives are told
that he was getting a cab to the airport. Now
thought I thought this was gonna be like a classic
Rundo move right, do some crimes flee the country, But

(02:19:25):
allegedly he was actually flying to Toronto, which actually will
kind of get explained later on. Cops are outside to
see if they can spot him before he leaves, and
they see a man in yellow sneakers and a logo
emblazoned hoodie walking towards a cab. They sprint tap him
on the shoulder. The MMA guy throws detectives against the car,
starts fighting, not realizing their NYPD because he has like
earbuds on. Cops pull their guns, then he surrenders. The

(02:19:48):
owner of the gym is named Domino Dominal. It's a
weird it's weird name.

Speaker 11 (02:19:53):
I think Dominall it's like and I think it's an
Irish name.

Speaker 5 (02:19:56):
Dominall.

Speaker 6 (02:19:57):
Yeah, dominoll Kovak. He has four previous convictions for assault,
all against black victims, with two charged as hate crimes.
A detective notes that Kovak has a tattoo on his
right arm of laced up combat boots with the number
eighty eight, which the detective calls a white nationalist symbol.

Speaker 11 (02:20:16):
Okay, okay, here, I looked, I looked hard. I looked
hard through a lot of photographs of Nazi tattoos, and
the boot tattoo is not common and you only see
it in skinhead culture.

Speaker 6 (02:20:32):
And this guy's not a skinhead. The actual owner of
the gym does not appear to be a skinhead. He
has like a big beard. He has like long brown,
like longish brown, not long, but like medium shaggy brown hair.
But but yeah, he has this combat boot eighty eight tattoo.

Speaker 11 (02:20:47):
That's there are a lot of Nazi tattoos and that's
not the one I would have picked for this character.

Speaker 6 (02:20:51):
No, it's obviously like some lawn order writer googled like
Nazi tattoo and just picked that.

Speaker 11 (02:20:56):
Like, but that's the thing is, if that's what they
had done, I don't think they would have picked that, because,
like I said, I was looking through all of these
sort of like lists of different kinds of tattoos, yeah,
by different nonprofits. There is one one picture in all
of these databases of a tattoo that's even similar to this,
where it's a pair of boots with the number eight
on each boot. I found one.

Speaker 6 (02:21:18):
Yeah, I mean I think that that is the one
they used. I think they did want to like bring
in some level of like the idea of dog whistling
kind of with eighty eight, which will come up later
in the episode, but it's it's not well done anyway.
Kovac says that he's never seen Ellis Joyner before and
that the night of the murder, he was running a
late night intensive training program called the Combat Academy, based

(02:21:42):
on the Navy Seals training course. So many red flags
are going off here. It ended around midnight. Afterwards, Kovec
said he walked to his girlfriend's dear By apartment. He
was never on the subway, but he explains that the
gray hoodie and yellow sneakers are part of the Combat
Academy uniform that all members wear.

Speaker 11 (02:22:01):
It's so important to wear matching outfits with your boys.

Speaker 6 (02:22:04):
And in one of the more accurate moments of the episode,
as soon as he's in even a little trouble, he
gives out all the names of the members in his group.

Speaker 11 (02:22:15):
Did not even wait for a subpoena. He's like, would
you like their credit card numbers?

Speaker 6 (02:22:18):
Did not hesitate. He's like, no, absolutely, I'll give a DNA,
so I'll tell I'll tell you the names all the guys.
It wasn't me, I swear. So the detectives locate they're
recently divorced Brandon Arnaut outside of the I like that
they added the detail he was recently divorced, but this
never actually come up. It does not matter.

Speaker 12 (02:22:38):
But the second, the second they walk up to him
on the street, he was like, oh, my wife left me.
My wife left me last year with me, so I
got really into grappling with the boys because my wife
left me.

Speaker 6 (02:22:48):
Yes, exactly. So they find him outside the elementary school
he teaches that and which.

Speaker 11 (02:22:54):
Also never comes up again.

Speaker 6 (02:22:55):
Nope, and after very very little questioning, very came questioning,
he immediately admits to killing Joyner, saying it was an
accident and that Joyner was attacking a woman on the
subway and Brandon here was trying to protect her. At
the police station, the police say that they can't find
any footage of the woman Brandon is talking about, but

(02:23:17):
the defense attorney asks if the cameras were even working
at every station, to which the cops roll their eyes
if like really sartastical answer. They're like, oh my god,
this fucking guy asking if the cameras are broken. The
cops tell Brandon that they found Ellis Joyner's missing cell
phone in his gym locker. They searched his house, they
didn't find anything, but they got his They got a

(02:23:38):
warn for his gym locker and found the cell phone,
and they alleged that he stole it after he realized
that Joyner recorded a video of the fight that ended
up with Joiner being strangled to death.

Speaker 11 (02:23:49):
And that's something we call consciousness of guilt.

Speaker 6 (02:23:52):
The defense attorney ends the interview immediately as soon as
they bring this.

Speaker 11 (02:23:56):
Up, like, why wouldn't you tell your lawyer that tell
him that before you go in the search history and
Brandon's laptop shows him trying to figure out how to
unlock the phone to delete the video.

Speaker 6 (02:24:07):
Now, this part's a little bit odd. The cops debate
even though quote he admits to killing Joyner, I'm not
sure we have enough evidence to charge unquote, which is
not true. You have so much evidence, you have a confession,
you have so much evidence to charge.

Speaker 11 (02:24:23):
This is so bizarre, Like how often do you have
a recording of a murder happening and then the guy admitting.

Speaker 6 (02:24:28):
That it admits, Yeah, it's ridiculous. They charge on far
far less.

Speaker 11 (02:24:34):
They have that conversation in the room and they're like, well,
we can charge him or we can let him go.
He's like, I mean, I understand a conversation about like
is this murder too, is this manslaughter? Yeah, but it's
not a question of whether or not you're charging with something.
You're charging him with something.

Speaker 5 (02:24:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:24:47):
I mean, I think there's a reason actually why they
had this conversation, which I will get to at the
end of the episode if you remind me. I think
there's a reason why they discussed this option of letting
him go versus charging him. But at this point we
now swa to the law half of the episode after
we finished the order half. I don't know why these
are reversed because they do the police part first, then
the court part. But whatever, it should be called order

(02:25:10):
and law, which just guess, I guess, just doesn't sound good.
So a front page story in the legally not New
York Post is being passed around the DA's office. It
reads self defense or racist killing hero or zero.

Speaker 11 (02:25:26):
A recurring story in New York City.

Speaker 6 (02:25:28):
The prosecutor who's played by Hugh Dancy I'm just gonna
call Hugh Dancy because they don't know his character's name,
states that half the city believes Brandon's self defense story
and the other half just to sees a white man
killing an unarmed black man. That is what happened, a
litmus test for what people want to believe, says the
main DA.

Speaker 11 (02:25:47):
I think at this point the writers in that room
are just tired. Oh yeah, so like you can only
do so much cocaine before it just like stops working.

Speaker 6 (02:25:57):
The DA's office says that Brandon held Joiner in a
choke for so long after he was unconscious that even
if it started as self defense, it escalated to homicide.
They debate between manslaughter and murder, saying the former would
be easier to win with a clear use of excessive force,
regardless of Brandon's story of trying to help the girl.
But based on the cell phone video, the DA decides

(02:26:17):
to pursue a murder case due to a quote depraved
indifference to human life unquote displayed by choking someone for
full three minutes after falling unconscious.

Speaker 11 (02:26:28):
I'm not sure if you mentioned so. They found the phone,
So the victim had been recording the altercation and then
it got knocked out of his hand, and so it
was recording audio of the murder, but not video.

Speaker 6 (02:26:38):
I'm going to get to that once we get to
the court scene. Hugh Dancy is nervous about Brandon's literal
white night story and that he has no history of violence,
but the DA insists on second degree murder, saying, quote,
this is George Floyd all over again in what way?
And I'm sure as hell not going to end up
on the wrong side of it unquote, Which does ut

(02:27:00):
make the DA sound like a good guy, just makes
him sound like he doesn't want to have like a
bad press. It comes off as very slimy.

Speaker 11 (02:27:05):
I you know, I said, I watch a lave of
Law and Order, and so I have seen probably a
thousand hours of it, but I haven't watched it in
several years, so I don't know if maybe the tone
has evolved a little bit, but I got the impression that, like,
I don't know, maybe this is a guy who's consistently
worried about getting re elected, right because his job is
an elected position. Yeah, just doesn't want the press.

Speaker 6 (02:27:23):
Yeah yeah.

Speaker 5 (02:27:24):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:27:24):
So finally we cut to court, the prosecution plays the
cell phone video. Seconds after Joyner starts recording on his phone,
Brandon knocks it out of his hand, landing camera side down,
continuing to record only audio of the struggle. We hear
Brandon putting Joyner into a choke hold, Joyner repeatedly saying
he can't breathe, before appearing to pass out, followed by
three minutes of silence up until Brandon releases his arm

(02:27:46):
from around Joyner's neck. He picks up the phone, sees
it's recording, and turns it off. As the video is playing,
the prosecutor and the jury are all shaking their heads
so that we know that they don't agree with it.
Hugh Dancy questions the medical examiner, who explains it after
Joiner lost consciousness, he could no longer pose an a
lethal threat to the defendant, who continued to talk donor
for three more minutes. The defense suggests that a surge

(02:28:09):
of adrenaline distorted time and awareness of his surroundings, which
in the panic of the moment, made brand did not
realize Joiner lost consciousness for that long. Ellis, Joiner's secret boyfriend,
testifies next. He says the defendant was weirdly staring at
Joyner and himself, and that Brandon moved aggressively to step
in Zayne's way. When he was trying to exit the

(02:28:29):
train and said, quote unquote watch yourself in a quote
unquote racist tone. The defense brings up Zayne's past aggravated
assault charge to cast doubt on his testimony.

Speaker 11 (02:28:40):
Okay, they can't do that. They cannot take they cannot
you cannot do that. There is a very limited set
of circumstances in which you can bring up a witness's
criminal history, and this isn't it.

Speaker 6 (02:28:51):
There is a lot of funky law decisions going on
in this episode.

Speaker 11 (02:28:55):
You can't do that.

Speaker 6 (02:28:57):
Speaking of a funky law decisions, while actually speaking of
speaking of this ad break, we are back speaking of

(02:29:18):
troubling law decisions. The defense calls a surprise female witness,
Rebecca Laski, something you cannot do.

Speaker 11 (02:29:26):
I looked it up. The average time to take a
felony to trial in New York is a year, So
from time of death to this going to trial, best
case scenario probably like a fucking year. They had a
year to find this woman and she shows up on
the last day of the trial.

Speaker 6 (02:29:41):
It's definitely not the last day because if.

Speaker 11 (02:29:43):
This was you know, this is obviously sort of mimicking
the what was his name, Daniel Penny.

Speaker 6 (02:29:48):
Yes, that's it's always.

Speaker 11 (02:29:50):
Like making the Daniel Penny caase like this would have
been on the New York Post like every day leading
up to the trial.

Speaker 6 (02:29:55):
This woman would have been located. The murder happened in January.
The trial star I believe in early March, and lasts
about two weeks according to the timeline of the TV show,
So that's not how it works anyway. Rebecca Laski, the
female the surprise female witness. She testifies that she accidentally
bumped into Joyner, who quote unquote appeared mentally disturbed and

(02:30:16):
was making aggressive grunting noises aggressive grunting noises before lunging
at her. She then claims Joyner reached into his pocket
and she was scared he had a knife or something,
so she screamed. She screamed for help, and Brandon Arnau
saved her. She testified that mister Arnau grabbed Joyner away
from her and the two men started fighting. Laski calls
Brandon a hero, and a jury looks on inquisitively. After

(02:30:40):
the female witnesses quote unquote compelling testimony, the prosecutor talks
with the DA about offering a manslaughter plea but the
DA is steadfast since the video clip of a man
begging for his life and being choked to death for
three minutes after falling unconscious has not actually changed. Hugh
Dancy remarks that new context for the video isn't really
in their favor to it. The DA just replies, just

(02:31:01):
because a white woman saw Joyner as a threat doesn't
make it true, like okay, based in New York, DA,
I guess. Back in court, the prosecution asks Rebecca Laski
if she was actually present when a quote, the defendant
choked the life out of a joiner unquote. She clarifies
that the train stopped as the men were still fighting.
Joyner was reaching into his pocket. She was scared that

(02:31:24):
he maybe had a knife.

Speaker 5 (02:31:25):
Again.

Speaker 11 (02:31:26):
He's probably reaching for his inhaler and.

Speaker 6 (02:31:28):
Hailer or his cell phone to record this fight. She
curiously mentions, though, that after Brandon grabbed Joyner's arm and
the fight started, Brandon kept yelling at Joyner. He was
yelling to quote, surrender and that he was bleeding, and
that he was dirty or fighting dirty. I don't really
remember the exact words unquote.

Speaker 11 (02:31:49):
This destroyed me. I almost turned it off.

Speaker 6 (02:31:52):
Everyone in the courtroom gets a really funny look when
she meant when she mentions the word dirty. So we
we will get to this in a sec Under questioning,
Last admits that she never saw any weapon of any kind,
let alone a knife, and Hugh Dancy suggests that after
being attacked by a fellow comedian and having an argument
with its boyfriend, Joyner was probably suffering from an asthma

(02:32:13):
attack triggered by high stress. He wasn't mentally ill, he
wasn't acting aggressive or grunting in a threatening manner. He
was stuck in a subway car having an asthma attack.
And he addresses Laski saying, quote, you saw a scary
black man making a noise. Objection Uh sustained, So yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:32:32):
But they didn't but they objected there. But then when
he says like, and isn't it true that his behavior
was consistent with an asthma attack? Nobody objected to that
she can't offer She can't offer a medical opinion.

Speaker 6 (02:32:43):
Rebecca Laski, a ballet dancer, not a medical professional, cannot
offer an opinion on what what his medical symptoms can
be consistent with.

Speaker 11 (02:32:52):
When she starts getting upset, saying like, oh my God,
this is all my fault, Like this happened because of me.
Like at that point, no prosecutor would have allowed her
to continue speaking. He would have said, just answer the questions,
just answer the questions. He would not have let her
get emotional up there and blame it like that's that's poison.

Speaker 6 (02:33:08):
Yeah, but it makes not very good television, thrilling television.
So after court for the day, the prosecution wonders if
Brandon allegedly saying something about blood and dirt could have
really been quote the Nazi slogan blood and.

Speaker 11 (02:33:25):
Soil no no, no gere no no.

Speaker 6 (02:33:29):
The new battle cry of white nationalist groups unquote.

Speaker 11 (02:33:33):
See here's the thing.

Speaker 6 (02:33:35):
So this is where the episode goes fully, fully off
the rails.

Speaker 11 (02:33:38):
So like when I was watching her testimony, she was
like he said something about like you know, he was
bleeding and like he was dirty. At no point did
my mind no connect that too. And I quite literally
just yesterday was watching videos of guys yelling blood and soil.
This is something that's on my mind.

Speaker 6 (02:33:55):
It is a ridiculous jump. It's not there because yeah,
he's yelling something about like bleeding because his lip was bleeding,
and sure, a remark about being dirty could be could
be construed as as like a racist remark. But the
jump from bleeding and dirty to blood and dirt to

(02:34:18):
blood and soil is fucking baffling.

Speaker 11 (02:34:21):
It's just not even the same words. But not to
nippick here, not to Nipick. I just don't know that
blood and soil would have been the chant he chose
as he was doing the choking.

Speaker 6 (02:34:31):
It's bizarre he would have said a slur. Hugh Dancy
is also skeptical. None of the interviews with Brandon's family
or co workers indicated anything about racial extremism, but the
other prosecutor suggests that they look into his fitness gym,
the Covak Academy, as the owner quote has ties to
a few white nationalist organizations.

Speaker 11 (02:34:50):
Uh oh.

Speaker 6 (02:34:50):
The DA's office decides to investigate further. They arrive at
the gym as the buff Skinhead staff member from the
start of the episode is closing up for the day.
He claims to not know Brandon very well, and when
he's asked if he's ever heard Brandon say something that
could be interpreted as racist, he responds by saying, I'm sorry,
but I can't help you. The prosecutor makes a snydermark
and starts to leave, and the man quietly says, look,

(02:35:14):
I can't get into details, but let's just say you're
heading down the right path. But I can't help you
because it would blow my cover unquote.

Speaker 11 (02:35:22):
WHOA, Oh my gosh.

Speaker 6 (02:35:25):
He's a cop infiltrating the Nazi fight club. I mean,
there are some cops in there, right. I don't know
if I would say they're infiltrating. The next scene is
the funniest in the whole episode. After stumbling onto the
undercover operation, the head DA arrives at the NYPD counter
Terrorism Bureau as they have info pertaining to the prosecution's

(02:35:47):
murder case. But the counter Terrorism Bureau explains their scope
is much larger than this one case and they have
quote had their eye on Kovac for a while now.
They explained to the DA that his MMA gym is
actually a quote active club part of an international network
of a white supremacist sleeper cells that all front as

(02:36:09):
MMA style gyms unquote. So okay, okay, okay. White nationalists
have been using MMA gyms to front for activities for decades.

Speaker 11 (02:36:21):
I just found a new one the other day.

Speaker 6 (02:36:22):
This does happen. This does not mean they are active clubs,
nor do active clubs have to be MMA gyms. These
are these things are venn diagrams that can sometimes overlap,
but not always. The version of active clubs we see
in this episode now starts getting pretty fictitious.

Speaker 11 (02:36:41):
It Immediately first, I was like, almost like a fairly
reasonable like, yeah, like we do have active clubs at
MMA gyms, that's the thing they were like and their
stockpiling weapons to do a January sixth.

Speaker 6 (02:36:51):
Yeah, so what what? So they say they've identified over
thirty active clubs across nine states and several provinces of Canada.
So nine states far too low. There's active clubs in
way more states than that. There's also not necessarily like
if you have thirty active clubs across nine states, that's

(02:37:12):
a bizarre ratio. It means there's a lot of active
clubs in like a few states, which generally isn't how
it kind of ends up being there's maybe like one
or two, maybe three like per state. We don't fully know,
but I will give them points for adding in the
Canadian chapters, which most people kind of overlook, but.

Speaker 11 (02:37:28):
Also like, why is the NYPD investigating something happening in
nine states. That's FEDS.

Speaker 6 (02:37:33):
To be fair, that is fully accurate. The NYPD counter
Terrorism Bureau investigates things all over the world.

Speaker 11 (02:37:39):
But it's like just let if it's interstate, let the
FEDS handle it.

Speaker 6 (02:37:42):
Their jurisdiction is fucking bonkers. They're like the third biggest
that counter terrorism like law enforcement group in the entire world.

Speaker 11 (02:37:49):
It's like one of the world's largest standing armies.

Speaker 6 (02:37:51):
Yeah, no, it is. It is absurd, they say. Quote
the clubs operate as recruitment centers. They lure in a
young white men under the guise of getting fit while
indoctrinating them in racist ideology and training them in military
combat unquote. Now, the training that people receive in active
clubs very often does not equal military combat training. In fact,

(02:38:14):
they often have very poor fitness regiments and really bad
advice on how to get fit.

Speaker 11 (02:38:20):
I mean, if getting hooked on gear and rolling around
on the floor shirtless with the boys is military combat training,
then absolutely.

Speaker 6 (02:38:28):
If you look at the there's a pretty sensive docks
of some of the active club members in the state
of Georgia last year, and they were their fitness information
was not up to stuff. They were mostly seventeen year
olds who were arguing about different ways to like lift
better anyway. Lawn Order says that these active clubs are

(02:38:48):
quote trying to build an army. It's the new face
of hate unquote a very kind of retro slogan. We
don't really use that anymore, but if you look like
ten years ago or like, yeah, around ten years ago,
you would see a lot of like liberal articles talking
about the new face of hate. Quote no more white

(02:39:09):
sheets or burning crosses. They've adapted and created a facade
to mask their racist beliefs unquote. So the DA wants
their undercover guy to testify to secure the conviction against
one of the active club members, but the counter Terrorism
Bureau doesn't want to blow their nine month undercover operation
even for a murder conviction, as they've quote recently received

(02:39:29):
credible intel that Kovak is now stock pile a leg
of firearms and explosive materials unquote.

Speaker 11 (02:39:36):
So they should probably go ahead and arrest him for that.

Speaker 6 (02:39:38):
Huh yeah, yeah, right, it's time to move I guess
now they're combining like active club stuff with some like
Adam Woffen and militia stuff, just like throat, just just
smushing together all these different groups into one like mega boogeyman.
I guess quote these men are terrorists. They're capable of
significant violence unquote. So the counter Terrorism Burero suggests that

(02:40:01):
the DA takes a quote big picture of view of
the situation unquote. So the DA breaks the news to
the prosecution team that the undercover will be unable to
testify because the active club is quote planning a coordinated
attack along the lines of the January sixth insurrection unquote.

Speaker 11 (02:40:19):
So you should probably like the undercover operation is over,
Like if you have credible intel that there's an imminent attack,
like the operation is over.

Speaker 6 (02:40:26):
So also like this is just not what active clubs do,
Like this is like they don't care about J six.
That's like a proud boy thing and some militia dude.
It's like most active club members would be like, no,
all of the J six people are like fucking like
conservative like Trump Trump, brain dead losers.

Speaker 2 (02:40:44):
They're like, it's.

Speaker 11 (02:40:45):
Really that thing a couple of years ago where those
members of the base were arrested right before they were
going to try to kick off the Civil War by
inciting they were going to shoot into the crowd at
the gun rally in Richmond at the Virginia Gun and
then the plan was that everyone would start shooting each other.

Speaker 4 (02:40:59):
You know.

Speaker 11 (02:40:59):
It's like, so they had a pretty large stockpile of
weapons that one of the guys was Canadians, So like
maybe they got mixed up with that the base.

Speaker 6 (02:41:07):
Yeah, like they're combining elements of the bass Adam offfin
active clubs, proud boys into this like mega boogeyman, right,
just a villain. The DA says that this new attack
will quote only be more violent and without advance warning
this time.

Speaker 11 (02:41:24):
What do you mean without advanced warning?

Speaker 6 (02:41:26):
He just says, no, right, right, let this happen.

Speaker 11 (02:41:33):
The greater good is for us to allow this to occur.

Speaker 6 (02:41:35):
The undercover investigation cannot be jepridized in any way. But
as this looks more and more like a racially targeted murder,
according to the DA, the DA's office is to find
a different way to show that Brandon is racist. Quote
it's for the greater good a phrase, a phrase that
Hugh Dancy says helps justify a lot of otherwise unjustifiable positions.
And true, they started getting into this kind of debate

(02:41:56):
around like the ethics of like doing a long term
infla tration operation versus seeing like a like like an
active like like seeing an active threat, or like seeing
a way to like currently clamp down on a like
arm of an organization, even if they can't get the
whole thing yet, and they have this debate like is
it is it better to like do like a long

(02:42:18):
term strategy or to like just like chop off as
many limbs as we can as we go on and again,
it doesn't make sense because if they have all this
credible intel, why not just like get them right now?
But like what I wrap it up? So back in court,
mister Kovak is on the stand. Hugh Dancy asks if
he and the defendant have ever discussed quote, racial ideology,

(02:42:41):
to which Kovac says, I don't know what that means.
Believable the Probible. I mean, yeah, that is the correct
answer for this situation. The prosecutor elaborates racial purity into
racial marriage, what role black people should or shouldn't have
in society, and Kovac once again feigns ignorance. Hugh Dancy
asks about Kovacs eighty eight to tattoo being a Nazi

(02:43:01):
symbol and Kovec just says, I don't know, I just
like the number eighty eight, and then he doesn't.

Speaker 11 (02:43:08):
The prosecutor doesn't explain to the jury, no, does it
means Kyle Hitler.

Speaker 6 (02:43:13):
He just he just moves on. Never once in the
episode is it explained that the eighty eight symbol me
is a reference to high Hitler.

Speaker 11 (02:43:21):
Never ever actually say it, never say it. Yeah.

Speaker 6 (02:43:24):
Dancy does bring up mister Kodak's for prior convictions for
assaulting black men, two of which were charged as hay crimes,
and Kovec just says, that was a long time ago.

Speaker 11 (02:43:33):
And now see, I do want to say, because you
made such a big deal about it earlier, about how
you can't ask about prior convictions. I think in this
case it is an allowable exception because it goes to
direct impeachment, Like if he said, like, yeah, you know,
he made a statement himself about how he's not racist,
and you say, well, you have a hate crime conviction.

Speaker 6 (02:43:51):
And later in the court room he says that he
of course obviously doesn't have any problems with black people
when being a questioned by the defense attorney, but Hugh
Dancy pulls up Kovak's social media accounts, all of which
contained the phrase blood and soil in his bio objection relevance.
The prosecution then argues that Rebecculaski's testimony of hearing something

(02:44:13):
about blood and dirt may have been a vague recollection
of hearing blood and soil.

Speaker 7 (02:44:17):
No.

Speaker 6 (02:44:18):
Dancy describes bud and soil as a Nazi reference to
a racially uniform society.

Speaker 11 (02:44:24):
The jury would not have been allowed to hear this.
This happened outside the presence of the jury.

Speaker 6 (02:44:29):
Kovaca says, the phrase means that you're proud of who
you are and where you come from. Kovac taught the
defendant how to fight, how to do a choke hold,
so to end the questioning, Hugh Dancy asks if he
also taught the defendant to hate black people. Objection objection,
all right, So, The defense's closing argument frames the subway

(02:44:50):
as a dangerous, lawless zone and Brandon as a peaceful
elementary school teacher who has never gotten as much as
a speeding ticket.

Speaker 11 (02:44:58):
Probably because he doesn't dry.

Speaker 6 (02:45:00):
Yeah, because you live in New York. Uh who saw
someone in danger and bravely decided to step up and
do something. The prosecution's closing argument frames Brandon Arnaut as
a closeted racist who saw an opportunity to put his
white supremacist ideology into practice in a situation where he
thought he could get away with it. Quote. People like
mister Arnaud keep their bigotry buttoned up. They only discuss

(02:45:21):
it that people who share their hateful worldview. They rely
on plausible deniability because if the racism isn't overt, many
good people are all too happy to assume it isn't there.
But every once in a while, in moments of panic
or anger, the mask will slip unquote. Hugh Dancy closes
by saying that Ellis Joyner was an innocent, unarmed black
man suffering a medical emergency, and the two white people

(02:45:43):
on the train assumed he was a violent threat, and
they attacked him. And even if there was no intention
to kill at the start quote, at some point, the
defendant's focus shifted and his racial hate began to manifest unquote,
yelling blood and soil at Joiner quote a declaration of
hatred for all people of color unquote, as Brandon choked

(02:46:04):
him to death.

Speaker 11 (02:46:06):
Okay, here's the thing, here's the thing. This whole situation
with the undercover the counter terrorism. I have to believe
that they're trying to set up a longer plot arc
that that's going to come back in a later episode
or so. They have a new spin off called Law
and Order Organized Crime with Christopher Maloney Elliott Stabler from SVU.

(02:46:26):
So I wonder if they're going to cross it over
to organized crime, because it makes no sense.

Speaker 6 (02:46:32):
That's what I assume. I think this white national group
is going to come back and be even a bigger
plot point in a future episode. Otherwise, it didn't need
to be in here. Otherwise the inclusion in this in
this piece is really bizarre.

Speaker 11 (02:46:43):
So but no, so, but what I was going to
say is they did not need that undercovers testimony because
the only testimony they wanted to elicit it from him
was like as a character witness to say like, oh, yeah,
I've met him and he's racist. That wouldn't really even
be admissible in most like like even if the even

(02:47:03):
if the judge allowed the jury to hear that, like,
this isn't a hate crime case, it doesn't matter. What
matters is whether or not he used excessive, like more
force than was necessary for a self defense argument.

Speaker 6 (02:47:16):
The entire legal strategy they shift to halfway through the
corproateceedings is so obviously a dead end that doesn't actually relate.

Speaker 11 (02:47:23):
To and wouldn't have been allowed.

Speaker 6 (02:47:25):
Yeah, it's so it's so bizarre.

Speaker 11 (02:47:27):
And if they wanted to and if they wanted to
get information about like his views that maybe his family
didn't know about that people at work didn't know about,
why did they not get warrants for his phone and computer?

Speaker 6 (02:47:39):
I mean, I think they did because they mentioned in
searching through his phone and computer multiple times through the.

Speaker 11 (02:47:44):
Episode, found that he had searched for like how to
delete from cloud or whatever from the guy's phone.

Speaker 6 (02:47:50):
But like again, I think that's mostly just like undercooked.

Speaker 11 (02:47:53):
He didn't open like his telegram account to see what exactly.

Speaker 6 (02:47:56):
You didn't see the active club chat season. You didn't
see like you didn't talk to any other members of
the Combat Academy, no other members of the gym really anyway,
So the jury finds the defendant not guilty because yeah, okay,
outside the courtroom, the head DA says, quote, we did
the best that we could.

Speaker 11 (02:48:18):
Here's another problem. There's another problem. So not all states
allow this, but in New York, the court can submit
to the jury what are called lesser included charges. So
if you're charged with murder two I think was what
they charged him with his case, you know, the jury
can deliberate on the actual charge murder too, but they
can also consider what are called lesser included charges, so

(02:48:39):
something like manslaughter. So the jury can say, well, we're
not going to convict on murder. Tube we do think
it was manslaughter, so we're going to convict on that,
even though that wasn't the charge in the indictment. So
I can't imagine that this DA would not have pushed
for lesser included charges.

Speaker 6 (02:48:53):
Well, Hugh Dancy may agree. He says, quote, no, we
could have done better. We just chose not to for
the greater good.

Speaker 11 (02:49:01):
No, but they they could.

Speaker 6 (02:49:04):
I think I think he said that kind of sarcastically.
The the DA affirms that one day soon they will
take down the whole racist organization. But behind the the
to the two days here Brandon walks out of the
courtroom and celebrates with the other members of the Active Club.
End of episode.

Speaker 11 (02:49:21):
Okay, so but when they when they put Kovac on
the stand and they were saying like, oh, like, did
you teach him about racism. The better line of questioning
at that moment would have been, Okay, you're his grappling coach,
did you teach him how dangerous choke holts are?

Speaker 6 (02:49:37):
Right?

Speaker 11 (02:49:38):
Because, like, I don't know anything about a choke holds.
If I accidentally killed someone with one, maybe I didn't
know that would happen. If you are taking five hours
a week of private hand to hand combat lessons, you
probably do know, and that would go to you know, foreknowledge,
and like, why didn't why didn't they ask that?

Speaker 6 (02:49:56):
Again? I started this episode because I thought it would
be about active clubs, and it turns out by the
end it's really not.

Speaker 11 (02:50:03):
It's really about Daniel Penny.

Speaker 6 (02:50:05):
It's really about the killing of Jordan Neely. So this
is the actual rip from the headline's piece that they're doing,
which I did not really realize until the episode was over.
So this is kind of riffing on the incident that
happened on May first, twenty twenty three. Jordan Neely was
a thirty year old black man. He was Michael Jackson impersonator.
At the time. He was homeless. He was running the

(02:50:26):
subway in Manhattan and appeared emotionally distressed. He was yelling
about needing food and water. No one was helping him.
He was yelling that he didn't care about going to jail.
He was ready to die, and this was reportedly frightening
other writers. Daniel Penny, a twenty four year old former marine,
approached Neely and placed him in a lethal chocold that
lasted anywhere from five to seven minutes, depending on if

(02:50:48):
you ask the prosecution or the defense. Penny was repeatedly
told by other writers that Neely appeared to be dying.
By the time first aid was being administered, he was
already dead. Daniel Penny was let go after being questioned
by police, and only arrested eleven days later. I think
this is the part where they're like, do we want
to let them go or charge him now? I think

(02:51:09):
that's kind of what they're doing here. On June fourteenth,
twenty twenty three, he was indicted on a charge of
second degree manslaughter. The trial scheduled to start on October eighth,
twenty twenty four. So this episode also, I think it
fails in a lot of ways in this depiction of
active clubs. It uses certain terms, like the term active clubs,
which I was surprised they just I'm surprised they use

(02:51:30):
because that's kind of a more of like a niche term,
but they just made it to be this like MMA
elite Nazi squad. And I think them trying to include
this bit does an incredible disservice to trying to depict
the killing of Jordan Neely, which, first of all, like
there's already problematic aspects of right of turning this this
like really fucked up thing into a piece of entertainment.

(02:51:50):
That's kind of why I started this episode with that monologue.
But I think by cramming so many other elements in here,
like this, like this homophobia angle, this this this active
club angle, it does a real disservice to the actual
incident that they're trying to comment on, where there was
a man in a very crowded subway who very publicly

(02:52:11):
was basically lynched because a few writers were not super
comfortable when riding the subway because this man was yelling
for food and water. So it's not great, But after
watching Leave the World Behind Civil War on this, I
think this is the best depiction of our current political

(02:52:33):
moment out of all of those three things, which is
a pretty fucked up bar. I guess, Molly, do you
have any other thoughts on how they depict Nazi stuff
in this?

Speaker 11 (02:52:43):
I mean not well, not well, bitch, uh no. The
I was just gonna say, I was looking on Reddit
and seeing people's people's takes on it on the Law
and Order Reddit, and I found this fantastic comment. They
did take the Daniel Penny case but change the whole
story to make Penny look guilty, probably to make the
real Penny look like a bad guy in real life.

Speaker 6 (02:53:09):
Objection, objection, objection in your honor, object mods mods not yeah,
not great because also yeah, it also like for people
who are like looking at this as a parallel to Jordania,
like oh, why do they change so many details to
make him look even more guilty, and like, no, that's
not what's happening at all.

Speaker 11 (02:53:25):
Like I think they did a disservice to that story
by changing so many elements. I mean, like you said,
there's there's a conversation to be had about the ethics
of depicting the story as entertainment period. Yeah, but if
they're going to do it, and they've been doing it
for thirty years, right, that's just what Law and Order does.
If they're going to do it, I think they have
a responsibility to not do this, to not do this.

Speaker 6 (02:53:49):
Yeah, well again, they have bigger fish to fry since
there's that upcoming worse than January sixth attack head led
by these MMA guys who are stockpiling this explosive, so
watch out for that, I guess.

Speaker 11 (02:54:02):
Yeah, I guess I'll have to watch the rest of
the season to see if the MMA gym blows up
New York.

Speaker 6 (02:54:07):
Yeah, I will not be until they release a direct
follow up, So I think that doesn't for us today.
This is already way too This episode's already long episode.
It's already longer the Law and Order episode, So that
doesn't for us today. Thank you for listening. If you
want to check out my review of Civil War, it's
very short, but it's kind of to the point. I'm
on letterboxed at Hungry bow Tie, and then the reviews

(02:54:29):
that I liked, which are underneath my own review, go
into more depth about kind of the problems with that
film in my opinion and other people's opinion. Anyway, Where
can people find you online? Molly Oh?

Speaker 11 (02:54:42):
I am on Twitter at Socialist Dog Mom and my
newsletter The Devil's Advocates on Ghost and Think Us. That's
it for me. Oh, I'm podcasting sometimes now, no objections
for me. Yeah, I guess by the time you're listening
to this, you can listen to my latest episode the
show yesterday.

Speaker 6 (02:55:03):
All right, see you on the other side.

Speaker 5 (02:55:19):
Hi, everyone, and welcome to the show. It to me
James today, and I'm joined by doctor maung Zani, who's
an activist and scholar with thirty five years of experience
advocating against genocide and for freedom and Burma and one
of the founding members of the anarchist activist platform Forces
of Renewal Southeast Asia. Welcome to the show, doctor Journey.

Speaker 7 (02:55:39):
Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, it's.

Speaker 5 (02:55:41):
A pleasure to have you here. So and also I
should mention Nobel Peace Prize nominee as of as yesterday
or the day before the congratulations on that.

Speaker 6 (02:55:49):
Also, yeah, thanks so much.

Speaker 7 (02:55:52):
It happened in January, before the deadline, and so I
just released the announcement you know for the Burmese New
Year you know occasion, because yes, you know, the country
has been torn apart by you know, armed revolutions genocide,

(02:56:13):
the racism, anti Muslim violence, and so thought like this
may be a tiny sliver or positive thing. And so
if activists want to have, you know, there's some sustenance
for their grassroots revolution, here's somebody who's who has been

(02:56:36):
grassroots for thirty five years. So that's why I released it.
But that's you know, the secondary anyway.

Speaker 5 (02:56:43):
Yeah, I know, it's if it can get the world
to look at what's happening and pay attention, then I
think it's a good thing. So one thing I wanted
to ask you about today to start off with, is
something that when I talk to people in the US
and the UK about the revolution and the cure in Meanma,
the context of like ultranationalist Buddhism is one that is

(02:57:07):
very hard, I think for people who don't have a
great understanding of how that works to understand. So I
was wondering if we could start off with you explaining
like this, this long and painful history of like ultranationalist
Buddhism in Myanmar and how it's empowered the genocide of
Muslim people and also the hunter today.

Speaker 7 (02:57:29):
Well, when we talk about you know, ultra nationalism or
various strengths of nationalism. I think we need to periodize
or put in different historical periods because you know, the
term nationalism was a progressive, emancipatory ideological umbrella when the

(02:57:58):
local society or primarily Buddhists and also other people, but
the majority political systems were built on the foundation of
Buddhism in Burma, you know, like different kingdoms. But when
when when we were under the British for one hundred

(02:58:19):
and twenty four years, the you know internally warring Buddhist kingdoms,
you know, like Rakine and Morn and Burmese and Sean,
they all at Buddhist kingdoms and they formed this oppositional

(02:58:40):
ideological identity as you know, nationalists Buddhists that would confront
the alien colonial British rule. So in that sense, you know,
nationalism was not a bad thing at all because it
was you know, primarily for image concipatory struggle. But then

(02:59:03):
like you know, then fast forward post colonial independence period
nineteen forty eight onward. Right when when the British rule
was removed at the end of the Second World War
three years after the the oppositional Buddhist nationalists, you know,

(02:59:24):
umbrella identity collapse, right so Raklines want to full ground
their ethnic city given that the main oppositional commonality, the
colonial colonialism, was no more. And so that's when the

(02:59:44):
ethnicity was reinjected, you know, into the ideological formation. And interestingly,
as you would know as well, the end of the
Second World War was followed by the Coal War, right.
And on the one hand, like you've got you know,
godless communists, atheistic Russia, a Soviet Union and in China.

(03:00:10):
And then on the other hand, you know, essentially Christian West,
you know, or at least allegedly Christian West. And in
that context, the alternationalism was essentially encouraged to buy the

(03:00:31):
by the United States and allies. You know, like if
you that this is nothing new. If you look at
the rights of like a socialist governments across the Middle East,
you know, primarily Muslim Middle East, you would find like
the rights of Muslim brotherhood and you know what we
call today fundamentalist islamicist right, but that you know, the

(03:00:56):
Buddhist with at no central orientation were encouraged you know,
by the United States through grants and aid. The same
way like you know, the rights of you know, fundamentalist
Islam was encouraged or or midwifi with the US money.

(03:01:20):
Because this is important because through the eyes of the
coal war strategists, the only way that egalitarian leftist ideologies
could be confronted was through this, the faith based ideology.

(03:01:42):
So I don't want I'm not saying that the Burmese
nationalists and also nationalists were not responsible for their own growth.
But I also what I'm saying is that there was
a larger global context in which this monster was hatched. Yes,

(03:02:04):
and so, but even you know, like the going back
to the nineteen thirties, after the War Street collapse, you know,
then like you know, the the recession pervaded across the world,
and colonial economies like Burma with massive agricultural explorer economy,

(03:02:24):
the British founded expedient to basically turn to a religious
divide and rule, and like you know, the Burmese Buddhist
laboring classes were pitted against the Indian laboring classes of

(03:02:45):
different religions, but that was more like the Buddhist nationalists
and non nationalists versus you know, like what we were
called today migrant laborers from India, you know, under the
because we were part of British Empire. After the British left,
the Muslims began to be scapegoaded, and then finally I

(03:03:08):
think like the we cannot understand yes, you know very
well the nationalism or alter nationalism without some kind of
political organization. And that organization is what we call Burmese
political or state, whether it's controlled by the civilian elected

(03:03:30):
politicians or the military military as an organization, political state's
always there, whether it's you know, fascism in Nazi Germany
or Italy or Japan or like you know, the genocidal
Mimah about fifteen years ago. State was the engine. Actually

(03:03:54):
it's not the people that were generating this toxic ideology.
It was state that was inventing, manipulating and mobilizing towards
their sinister end.

Speaker 5 (03:04:08):
Right Yeah, And it's the divide and rules strategy and
the full I guess the falling back to this these
kind of colonial methods of rule is something that I
guess I want people to understand is still happening in
Burma or Myanmar. Right we see the military that the

(03:04:28):
junta doing it right now, right like attempting to ferment
inter ethnic conflicts to prevent the formation of a popular
front or a coalition against against their rule.

Speaker 7 (03:04:39):
Right, yes, I think the here the one observation I
want to make is a you know, independence from Britain,
restoration of say like you know, more than form of
sovereignty to Burmese people was not a clean break from

(03:05:00):
the colonial past. Because the state in Burma as it
exists or it has existed over the last seventy plus years,
remains a colonial state. It was an instrument of economic
exploitation or racialized or ethnicized administration. And all the security

(03:05:28):
laws and you know, ordinances and whatnot, they were formulated
with the interest of the ruling colonial interests or power
like at the time British and what the what independence
did was really transfer of this internally racialized entity we

(03:05:53):
call state from the white man's hand to the Brahman's hand,
you know, the Burmese. So so when when you the
state wasn't actually finding it difficult to foment racial or
inter we don't use the term race here, inter ethnic

(03:06:16):
conflict or inter religious conflict. The state itself embodied this
divide and rule outlook because it remains internally colonial, you
see what I mean? And so so I think that
it isn't simply the policies of the you know, X

(03:06:38):
y Z regimes that have rude Burma since independence. But
the state itself is conducive to, or you know, supportive
of this kind of inter religious and inter ethnic contest
because there there are no principles of equality as as

(03:07:03):
ethnic or religious communities or there there there was no
sense of you know, horizontal or vertical fairness among the
political class and the majoritarian agrarian communities, and so the
state is self problematic. Yeah, that's why, like you know

(03:07:23):
that when ol San Suci came to you know, semi power,
because the military is still controlled or backseat drove for
a regime, she found it really difficult to maneuver because
she was straight jacketed in this you know internally colonial shell.

Speaker 5 (03:07:45):
Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 7 (03:07:46):
And then so so I think, of course, like you know,
you're it's correct what the military is doing now, say
in Racine State, where they committed genocide against Rainia Muslims.
You know, they drove out you know, close to eight
hundred thousand Rohindas of genocidally across the border to Bangladesh

(03:08:07):
in two thousand and seventeen and also sixteen. They are
now army and training, and you know, forcively conscripting able
body young Rhindja men into their ranks and to fight
the progressively militarily stronger recind Buddhist Arakan army. That's just

(03:08:32):
one area. But you know, if you look at other
regions like shun Stay, for instance, there's an extremely complex
ethnic contestations happening. Right, so what like political scientists call
like a horizontal violence is taking place, and so it's
like there are multiple conflicts at work, you know, but

(03:08:56):
of course like the military is number one, you know,
problem maker, but they're also lesser evil forms of like
political and ethnic conflicts taking place.

Speaker 5 (03:09:20):
Yeah, I think, yeah, it's very much against Shan states.
I think particularly complicated and interesting as we look at
the situation now in the different like both in the
liberated areas or the areas without control of the like
NAPI or state that they may still be controlled kind
of in a sense by other kind of like pseudo states.

(03:09:42):
I guess are you familiar with this? There's this argument?
I think it's probably like articulated. I'm sure you are articulated,
most notably by James C. Scott of like and he
looks at the example of me and Ma has been
rightly criticized in some areas of like the mountains, as
an area where people can I guess, choose to opt

(03:10:06):
out of the state or or to be where the
state is not completely consolidated, I guess, and never has been.

Speaker 7 (03:10:13):
Yeah, I know, I know Gym's work, you know, like
the the he divides people into valleys and you know, mountains.
You know what's interesting is like you know, it's it's
it's a lot more complex than this, you know, the
the dualistic understanding of like hill people versus plain people,

(03:10:34):
because you know, like even in the in the hills
that there are you know, highlands and and and there
are plateaus and.

Speaker 6 (03:10:42):
You know the you know and so.

Speaker 7 (03:10:45):
But also I think like that I find it more
useful to look at this not through geographic lens, but
through the colonial lens, because you've got the colonial state,
because like you know, Gym is essentially anti status. But
as a matter of value, yeah, I am with him,

(03:11:06):
you know, because I'm bent on the anarchism as my value,
you know. But analytically, I think, but given the fact
that the colonial state continues to live on and continue
to haunt the Burmese society. I think, like the way

(03:11:27):
I look at it is like you know, center and peripheree, right,
irrespective of the altitude. I mean, at this point, like
altitudes no longer really strategically important because you know, we're
we live in the age of drones and like you know,
MiG twenty nine and sixteen, mountains are no longer cover

(03:11:53):
you see what I mean, right, Yeah?

Speaker 5 (03:11:54):
Yeah, the construct of the mountains as like nonstate space
or place where you can go to choose to be nonstate.
I think like it's interesting to hear young Bamar PDFs
fighters now be like, oh, I chose to go to
the mountains, even though it sits very much alongside that
Canelian analysis that you had of like the wild people

(03:12:17):
or like quote unquote savagery, right, which or when I
speak to Bamar people who are like twenty one now
who joined the PDFs at eighteen seventeen after the coup,
they had all been very much indoctrinated with the idea
of non Bamar people as quote savages or wild people
who lived in the quote mountains or jungles, and like

(03:12:38):
choosing to go there to escape the state. I think
it's really interesting to hear like that analysis reproduced in
their storytelling of their own lives.

Speaker 7 (03:12:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think you know that it has
been in the Burmese political psyche. You move away from
the Senate and you are more autonomous, and you are
you know, freer from the right, you know, the reach
of the center, right, because we we still have this

(03:13:14):
center periphee mentality. Yeah, I mean you know culturally, yes,
you're absolutely right. Uh, the way people in the center,
like the group that I belong to, Burmese Buddhist majority,
we look down on people that are on the periphree right,
that the way people dress. I mean it's also like
you know, the rural and urban divide as well, you know,

(03:13:38):
the even like those who grew up in the in
the non majoritarians, you know regions, you know what I
call it, the peripherys of the Burmese colonial state. When
they settle in Rangoon or Mandally or or you know
major urban areas, they they begin to dress, they begin

(03:13:59):
to I mean, they necessarily adapt to the the the
Burmese way of life, the majority dominant you know, customs
and whatnot, and so so I still stick with the
you know this whole colonial relations the organizationally and psychologically.

(03:14:21):
The yeah, I mean also that we have the vocabulary.
If you want to oppose a central state or the
central regime, we say, we take refuge in the forest, right,
And we take refuge in the forest or under the
tree against the scorching sun or like pouring monsoon rain right,

(03:14:44):
or the evil center right. And so so it's all
built in. It's in the language even you know, like
organizing an armed revolt or going underground is described as
taking refuge in the forest the jungle, you know. And
and and what's what's interesting though, is like you know,

(03:15:07):
from the state's perspective, if you're taking refuge in the
in the jungle, of course, like that's treason us and
you know, that is an act of criminality. But if
you if you use that language, or if you if
you do exactly the same thing literally physically, if you're

(03:15:29):
a Buddhist monk, you know, you you are considered holier
than monks that continue to live in the city, you
know what I mean. So you go, you know, the
forest monks versus like a city, town or village monk. Right.
So this is quite a fascinating linguistic you know, twist

(03:15:54):
here on one hand, like you know, but from the
revolutionaries perspective, if you're in the jungle, you grow certain
aura around you. You're in the jungle, right, and you
don't you don't wear jeens or you don't look like
city people by you're wearing you know, like the fatigue,

(03:16:17):
army fatigue and you know, jungle the paraphernalia. And as
a revolutionary that's like, you know, that's I check with
our time.

Speaker 1 (03:16:27):
You see what I mean.

Speaker 7 (03:16:28):
Revolutions start or organize around jungles, you know, I mean,
so it has nothing to do with altitude. You see
what I mean?

Speaker 5 (03:16:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just yeah, I like that periphery
colonial model.

Speaker 6 (03:16:51):
So I wonder like, I think people who.

Speaker 5 (03:16:53):
Listen to this will both be very much like amenable
to anarchism and see the problems that state societies create
and also to the revolution in me Emma and to
the young people and then not so young people who
are fighting it. I wonder like, how do we build
a future for Memma that doesn't replicate this colonial corpora

(03:17:16):
fhery model that doesn't the scene quiton of the state
that's centered in Napidor is like the it's this use
of violence to control and this colonial relationship.

Speaker 6 (03:17:25):
Right, so how do we not replicate.

Speaker 5 (03:17:27):
That in the post revolution future?

Speaker 7 (03:17:29):
Well, I think you know, there's a danger in or
should I say, the romanticizing the mini states or substates,
right if establishing autonomous states does not confront the colonial

(03:17:52):
nature of the state from which these meaning states you know,
emerge as oppositional entities. In other words, whatever administrative structures
that you know, the the the current armed revolutionary organizations

(03:18:12):
set up, they need to first make sure they don't
replicate that the internally colonial nature of the state that
they have been fighting and to some degree of like
success at this point in history, right, because the coloniality

(03:18:36):
is very much connected with the idea of pure ethnic identity,
you see what I mean, and in this day and age,
I mean whether I mean you've been to current State
and other places in Burma and and you know in
the Middle East at Curtis and so. But they're they're
they're always like, you know, the idea of pure ethnic identity, right,

(03:19:01):
even if you're a revolutionary. But but but the truth,
the truth is, you know, even small places you will
find Muslims and Hindus and Christians or people with different
migratory histories and class background. You flettened them into a
single ethnic identity, right that well, that that that in

(03:19:22):
and I mean self perception, we are a new Kuran
state or Karany state or Kachin state, right, even Kachin
the late the term label the label Kachin in the north.
You know, they have about like the three or four
major groups there, and and some resent being referred to

(03:19:44):
as Kitchin, but they go along because they are against
the more evil CenTra, a Burmese Buddhist state, right right,
so so so so so that's why when I when
I explain to you, you know, at the outset of
this the conversation, this like your Buddhist identities merged as
an oppositional umbrella, anti colonial identity against the British when

(03:20:11):
that common oppressors has gone home, and then we start
fighting each other, you see what I mean? So number one,
it's like you know, that is very very important. These
new entities do not define their political organizations along any
idea of like you know, blood and soil. Yeah, and

(03:20:35):
that's very very important.

Speaker 6 (03:20:36):
Otherwise we we.

Speaker 7 (03:20:38):
We replicate what we fought against. Right. And secondly, I
think no military organizations should control administrations. But at the moment,
you know, with the exception of the current National Union,
most other ethnically organized armed resistance organizations in Burma, when

(03:21:04):
they set up administrations, you know, administrators are guys who
are you know, like carrying AK forty seven or some
other weapons. You see what I mean? Because like what
they need to do is as soon as like that
they have secure any like ancestral region, what they need

(03:21:25):
to do is they need to separate law and order
maintenance from the defense. Yeah, And the reason we have
gotten into this bloody mess is because the military did
not separate law and order administration as a civilian function

(03:21:46):
function from the national defense. So the current progressively militarily
successful ethnic resistance organizations have to demilitarized self consciously and
as a matter of policy their new administrations. So these

(03:22:08):
two things, you know, move away from blood and soil
idea of identity and demilitarized and civilianize the administration.

Speaker 5 (03:22:20):
Yeah, do you have hope? Like I find when I
talk to especially younger people in the PDF, who are
most people are like maybe it's easier for them to
see the obvious the colonial relationship and the way that
these constructs have harmed them and prevented them from finding
solidarity with people of other ethnic groups. That's something that

(03:22:44):
like sometimes they will articulate to me, right that, like,
you know, we were told these people were bad and
evil and savage, and they're not, and there are allies
in this fight against dictatorship. Do you think that that's
replicated in the in the leadership of eros like that
that idea that this blood and soil nationalism has been

(03:23:05):
the blood soil identity, I should say, is something that's
like a big problematic and devisive and will always be
so like, do you not see that replicated so much?

Speaker 7 (03:23:15):
Well, there is still you know, the old conservative orientations
in these ros with respect to two things, the acceptance
of you know, younger generations into policy making circles, right yeah.

(03:23:38):
And then the other one is the half of the
population of these ethnic communities have remained marginalized, and that
is war men, if you you know, I mean, on
one hand, it does make sense that you know, men
with guns and men with like you know, the fifty
years of revolutionary experience are going to play leading role.

(03:24:03):
But these guys have to make a conscious effort in
changing their own value system, which is like, you know,
bring in new generations with more progressive ideas into policy
making circle, leadership circle, and bring in warming. And you know,

(03:24:26):
I wish I understand I know more about the Kurdish
revolutionary organizations. My own very limited understanding is that you know,
gender equality, I mean, for the for the Islamophobic crowd,
it might be quite shocking, but the Kurdish revolutionary organizations
are you know, much more gender equal, yeah than like

(03:24:52):
you know, white democratic societies.

Speaker 5 (03:24:55):
Yeah, that's right. And I think their analysis, if I
can sort of summarize like opposed thought very is that
colonialism begins in the patriarchal family, and that the first
colonized subject is the woman. And therefore, if we can't
decolonize off amelia and community relations, then we have little
hope of decononizing ourselves as a group or as a society.

(03:25:17):
So that their analysis rest in the same place as
yours does. And I think that there's I think increased
solidarity and communication between the Kurdish freedom movement and the
resistance movements in mem which I hope can only do
good for that. Like, especially with regard to gender relations,
it was interesting to see the Kereni K and d

(03:25:38):
F Battalian five issued a statement which said that like
they had a long way to go in terms of
gender relations, and they looked to the Kurdish model of
example of where they can get to, which at least
it gives me hope that these things can get better.

Speaker 7 (03:25:53):
Yeah. I mean K and DF is a remarkable you
know organization, crenatural defense organization, right, Kranny, Kranny. I mean
they are led by very progressive sort of like you know,
semi anarchist type young people. Yeah, you know, the the

(03:26:13):
ethnicity and gender discrimination are self consciously avoided and discouraged. Yeah.
So basically, other we we cannot we cannot have a
successful revolutionary movement, you know, just by trying to you know,

(03:26:34):
take power from the center. You know, there has to
be you know, it's an rebellion. It's different from a
revolutionary movement. Revolutionary movement involves a shifting fundamentally the non
progressive values and outlooks. Right. That that is something that
needs to happen, and that that, in my view U

(03:26:59):
is a deeply you know, intellectual psychological process. But I
think I think that the the the that is happening,
you know, and so the so that that that ideological
progressive shift is it's going to hit the uh, the

(03:27:22):
ceiling at some point because you've got old men in
a decision making positions who are not who haven't bought
in entirely uh, the need to shift their value system.
And then partially it's not simply ideological, it's also self interest.

(03:27:45):
When you're when you're the when you're the boss for
twenty five years, you know, you're a little like autocredit tyrant,
you know what I mean, right, organization, So shifting the
you know, giving women and younger generation spaces me you know,
you shutting up fifty percent of the time and letting

(03:28:07):
the other you know, people speak fifty percent, you know,
like they're no more like monologue for one hour, you
see what I mean. Yeah, so even like you know,
the airtime, you have less airtime, that's like you're less.
That's your self interest your airtime, you know, let alone
economic and other interests. This is just like talking in

(03:28:31):
a meeting, you see what I mean. I've been through
like some of some of the meetings and stuff, and
so you know, like guys think that only they have
important things to say, you know, especially military matters or
big items, okay, like women talk about welfare of children
and you know, widows kind of shit.

Speaker 5 (03:28:50):
Yeah, yeah, this is very sort of still like separate
spheres gender model that I know. Yeah, I have hope
for the young generation. But I remember one of the
guys as I met, he told me that, like he said,
he said, like three years ago, I had some gender problems,
and I didn't understand what he meant, and he was like,

(03:29:11):
I thought that women couldn't do things that men could do,
and now I realized I was wrong. And they were
telling me that the police wouldn't there there was a
taboo to walk underneath a woman's lunch. Yes, so yeah,
so they hung them around their protest camps when they
were in Yangon fighting the police, and that the police
wouldn't come in, so that you were like, oh, this

(03:29:32):
is when I realized that sexism hurts everyone. So I
think it's yeah, I have hope for that generation. I
think it's It's been one of the things that has
given me so much hope for the world in general
as I've been covering the revolution in the Amma, is
to see people reconstruct and change their identities in a

(03:29:53):
progressive and inclusive way, and people, you know, people in
this countries and the UK as well are so stuff
in their sort of regressive identities. And to see young
people there acknowledged that sexism, homophobia, these these racist and
inter ethnic like hierarchies are damaging everyone. It's given me

(03:30:13):
a great deal of hope for the future.

Speaker 2 (03:30:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (03:30:17):
I share your optimism. And part of it is, you know,
the progressives or people or younger people or like older
people with progressive outlooks. I mean, everything is constructed, you know,
like if you change the material situation in terms of
you know, who's making decisions or you know, under what

(03:30:40):
conditions decisions are made, I think that people are able
to shift their thinking, you see what I mean. I mean,
And so I think like that, but definitely that political
leadership is very important, you know. I mean I don't
I don't believe in this like a goddess idea of

(03:31:01):
like a group of men, uh you know, you know,
guiding guiding the herd. Right, But at the same time,
I think like these older men should meet the younger
generations halfway. Yeah, And I'm not saying like okay, all right,
you know, like a you know, like don't trust anyone

(03:31:22):
above forty because I'm sixty, so I still want to
be trusted. And but yeah, I mean I'm sixty and
I can take ship from eighteen year old junior friend
or colleague could tell me you're full of shit. And
here's the reason I listen, Right, So I assume, like
other other people my age, my generation, will be able

(03:31:46):
to uh do the adjustment right and especially for the
better and the But but I think that said there,
they are really articulate young people and women, yes, who
whose voices need to come to the full like you know,
like people the people I mean, like we don't live

(03:32:08):
in isolation anymore. Like in the nineteen sixties and seventies
and agies, Burma was very isolated and so you know,
and so the ideological currents did not reach within the
Burmese society. So that the type of religions or religions
I mean Christianity, the type of Christian practices outlook whatnot

(03:32:33):
remain like extremely conservative compared with like you know, even
like a conservative like Christian country like USA, yea. And
but now, like you know, with we live in the
social media internet age, and so you know, young people
you know use the term like intersectionality, you know what

(03:32:54):
I mean. They start to see like race, class, gender
and other issues, you know, like inter intersecting and then
producing or reproducing or ending like different forms of you know,
repression and you know, exploitations and whatnot. We still have
a very very long way to go. We can't shift.

(03:33:17):
But that's not not to say that, you know, we
should feel like discouraged, you know, but we we We
won't see instant changes.

Speaker 5 (03:33:29):
No, yeah, but I think over time, Yeah, I have
an deal of a great deal of optimism for the
future of Memma, doctor Sanny. It's it's been really great talking.
Where can people, especially people who are interested in your
work and in the future of Memma, How how can
they follow along with your work and with these struggles
to create a more equal and just in democratic in

(03:33:54):
the non state sense Burma.

Speaker 7 (03:33:56):
I mean one. I mean, I use social media, especially
like in Facebook a lot, and I begin like consciously
writing in Burmese language because I don't need to inform
the world, because the world know the ship that's going
on in Burma, and and so I think the my

(03:34:18):
Facebook's okay. But if if people read like English or
even like you know, other languages you know, our own
mother tongue. Uh, the the Forces of Renewal Southeast Asia
four c dot com CEO. It's a good platform. We
encourage and actually we seek out uh you know, very

(03:34:41):
radical ideas in multiple languages Burmese or or Chin or
Karani or whatever language they want to use. We don't
censor anyone. They can say anything as long as they're
not advocating fascist them are violence or like you know,
things like that. And so yeah, I encourage to take

(03:35:04):
a glandset our South East Asia Network of anarchistic activists
and scholars.

Speaker 5 (03:35:11):
Yeah. Yeah, it's a great website. I'll inclear a link
to it in the description. Thank you so much for
your time this evening. We really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (03:35:22):
Hey, We'll be back Monday with more episodes every week
from now until the heat death of the Universe.

Speaker 6 (03:35:28):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

Speaker 8 (03:35:30):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool Zonemedia dot com. But check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia, dot com, slash sources, thanks for listening.

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