It Could Happen Here Weekly 182

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Media.

Speaker 2 (00:03):
Hey everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let
you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode
of the week that just happened is here in one
convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's going to be nothing new here for you, but
you can make your own decisions. Welcome back to It

(00:28):
Could Happen Here, a podcast about it happening here, which
is normally focused on the United States because that's where
we all live. However, we do like to cover the
rest of the world and the ongoing struggle against the
global far right movement. And today we're going to talk
about a place that we don't cover often on this show, Ireland.

(00:48):
And it's not because Ireland doesn't have a problem with
the far right, because as our guest today is going
to talk to us about it, most certainly does. And
so I would like to welcome to the program a
great guy, Padre O'Rourke, author of Burned Them Out, A
History of Fascism and the far Right in Ireland. Thank
you so much for being on the show.

Speaker 3 (01:08):
No problem, delice to be here, Thanks very much, Robert.

Speaker 2 (01:11):
Yeah, you know, there's this attitude, and I think, as
you noted in some note use of the long, there's
a degree to which it's true that Ireland has some
resistance to the far right that has led to maybe
it growing slower or taking a little longer to get
off the ground to the same extent that it has
in the UK or the US as a result of
kind of the history of Irish republicanism. That that's not

(01:33):
comprehensively true across the island, and that that's you know,
certainly has not stopped it from having some pretty significant problems,
which we're going to talk about today.

Speaker 3 (01:43):
Yeah. Sadly, as long as fascism has existed since Mussolini's
March on Rome and his political rise, we have had
fascist groups here of one sort or another. Yeah, We've
had fascist groups in Ireland that were pro British and politics,
fascist groups in Ireland that were pro Irish or Irish independence.
You know, obviously we were neutral during World War Two.

(02:04):
We weren't occupied by Nazi Germany or anything like that.
We did have one very big fascist group here in
the nineteen thirties, the Blue Shirts, who were extremely violent
and got sixty eight members of Parliament elected. They were
the main political opposition. They were kind of the largest
non governing fascist organization in the world per capita. But
as you said, Irish republicanism has kind of inoculated us

(02:27):
against a lot of the far right stuff we'd have
seen in Britain and Germany and France in the nineties because,
you know, while the conflict was going on in the
North of Ireland. Basically, if you were an angry young
man with very strong patriotic feelings who was given towards
political violence, he would probably end up in the provisional IRA.

(02:47):
And their politics were very left wing and internationalist. I
mean I remember going into their political wing Shinfein's bookshop
in Dublin in the nineteen nineties and it was all
pictures of you know, yes Er Arafat, and it was
pictures of Nelson Mandela and like the Zapatis stays, and
you know, it was very much about Irish independence being

(03:08):
an anti colonial struggle. You do, of course get like
on the opposite side of that, on kind of the
loyalist pro British side in the North. You did get
as kind of reaction to that, pro British paramilitaries, the
Ulster Volunteer Force, the UDA, Ulster Defense Association, the Ulster
Volunteer Force, the UVF. They would have linked up with

(03:29):
neo Nazi groups like Combat eighteen in England to get guns,
to get finances, to get their hands on explosives and
things which were easier to get in England than in
the North of Ireland. But really we never had a
party here, either in the North or in the South
that was as successful as groups like the Front National
in France or the British National Party in England. But

(03:51):
sadly in recent years, certainly in the last ten years,
the far right are kind of back. They're alive and kicking,
and they're taken to the streets.

Speaker 2 (04:01):
And so what do you credit that? I mean, it
seems like there's a mix of things. First off, you
suddenly do have people immigrating into Ireland from elsewhere in
the world in significant numbers for you know, the first
time in quite a while. And then on the other head,
it sounds like there's also the kind of as we
see everywhere in the world, the conscious exporting of far
right figures and ideas into the country.

Speaker 3 (04:24):
Yeah, well, Ireland's greatest export was always people, and you know,
a fewge Irish American communities in you know, Chicago, New York,
you know, all over Irish people in Australia and Canada
and England, all over the continent. So in the early
you know, twenty tens, we started, like there had always
been a trickle of migration and people coming back and forward,

(04:45):
like we had some you know, Vietnamese refugees here, we
had you know, historically we had Russian Jews coming here
and so on escaping programs in Zaras, Russia. But really
the first time that we had very large numbers of
people coming was in the tw anti teens, and it
was things like the Mediterranean migrant crisis, it was people
fleeing climate change in Africa, the Syrian civil War, Teleiban

(05:08):
in Afghanistan, and more recently, of course Putant's invasion of Ukraine.
And the far right have always been these tiny little
fringe parties and figures. It was a very active anti
fascist group here called Anti Fascist Action Ireland. And anytime
these groups tried to organize or take to the streets,
they were challenged and they were run off but really
what brought them all together Ireland's kind of attempt to

(05:29):
unite the right was the COVID nineteen pandemic because we
had one of the strictest COVID lockdowns in Europe. You're
talking about. Originally you weren't allowed to travel more than
two kilometers from your home. That's one of the quarter
miles for you Americans. And basically you could go to
the store, but other than that, you couldn't, you know,

(05:51):
you couldn't travel very far. And of course everyone was
locked at home with their with their internet and started
going down the rabbit hole. And what we saw was
the anti vaxer COVID conspiracy movement took to the streets
in Ireland very quickly, and that brought together all of
the disparate tiny far right and neo fascist factions. The

(06:13):
closet neo Nazis, the anti vaxers, the fundamentalist Catholics like
the Society of Saint Pias, the tenth, the sovereign citizen types,
you know, the people who were on about five G
conspiracies and chemtrails, all got onto the streets, all got
active on the Irish left and the anti fascist side.
We kind of dropped the ball because we were following
the healthcare advice and the cops were quite happy to

(06:35):
ignore the far right mobilizing on the street. But there
were striking workers like Debenhams and Clearis who'd been striking
before COVID struck, and the cops were going up and
moving these trade union assan saying, you know, you're breaking
the pandemic. So it wasn't released evenly, and you know, suddenly,
for the first time during the pandemic, we were starting
to see groups of three four hundred far right in Dublin,

(06:57):
which doesn't sound like much, but I mean last week
there was a march in Dublin City and they had
probably around five thousand, maybe up to ten thousand people marching,
and that's something we haven't seen here since the nineteen thirties.

Speaker 2 (07:10):
Yeah, and that's such I think an important point. The
degree to which, because this is a global issue, the
degree to which everyone else attempting to abide by public
safety measures during COVID nineteen strengthened the far right because
they were out in the streets. It's kind of organizing
equivalent of getting to steal a march on the enemy.
It makes sense to me that it was because in

(07:32):
the US that was interrupted at least by the George
Floyd uprisings. But in Ireland, you know, it seems like
there was a much more significant period of time where
these folks were essentially acting and organizing unopposed, and the
police were, when they chose to act at all, acting
against folks on the opposite side of things who were
organizing during COVID.

Speaker 3 (07:51):
Yeah, it was like kind of run belong to the police.
The cops didn't really start taking action on any of
this stuff until I would say it was nearly November
twenty twenty three when they had this rally called I
think it was called to the Doll or maybe slightly
earlier than that, in September twenty twenty three. The Doll
is the Gaeacord for our Parliament, and basically the dregs

(08:14):
of the COVID movement kind of came together again. You
had all these tiny far rice and fascist parties popping up,
and the best thing about them is they all get
into furier fights. They all start arguing with each other
about who's going to be the leader, and they haven't united.
But they took to the streets in the autumn in
the fall of twenty twenty three, and there was one
really violent and disgusting riot outside the outside the Parliament

(08:39):
where the far right were throwing bottles of your line
at politicians trying to get in, were shouting racial abuse
at anybody who wasn't white, who was working in the
building as a cleaner or a parliamentary assistant or anything.
Any opposition politicians they could see, they were screaming at
them in imitation of you guys. And January the sixth,

(09:01):
they had built a mock noose and they were using
it to hang effigies of politicians. And you also had
police cops being attacked for the first time by the
fire right. Really there's been one or two other incidents,
but it's only when cops started getting attacked by them
and politicians were being directly their safety was being threatened,
then the cops started to act, maybe in the last

(09:23):
eighteen months or so, but it was really closing the
stable door about five years after the violent fire right
horse had already bolted.

Speaker 2 (09:31):
Yeah, and you know, so I'm kind of thinking here,
this is part of why you've started to see, you know, guys,
like we started this conversation before being recording talk about
Tucker Carlson coming over to talk to Connor McGregor, who's
becoming an increasingly large part of this. And I wonder
if it's if it's maybe these these different kind of

(09:52):
international folks in the international movement sort of sniffing that,
you know, they're hoping that the cancer his metastasize, so
to speak. I mean, is that kind of what you
how you see it?

Speaker 3 (10:02):
Well, they definitely have an influence here. I mean, the politics,
the talking points, the buzzwords that the far right use
in Ireland have all been learned from the likes of
Alec Jones, have all been learned from watching you know,
crazy stuff on Twitter. And it's all American and British

(10:23):
far right talking points that are being replayed here. Stuff
about the Clergy Plan, stuff about the Great Replacement and
so on. I mean, one hundred years ago was the
Protocols of the Elders of Zion and now they're just
spinning the same conspiracy, same talking points again. Like for example,
one of the things we had here was we had
a party called the Irish People's Party and some of

(10:46):
our campaigners were really fundamentalist Latin mass set of acantas Catholics,
and they were going down and protesting about drag queen
story time at Irish libraries. We don't even have drag
queen story time. Yeah, I have been so inspired by
what was happening in America and I just went in
and started taking books off the shelves, you know, and

(11:08):
anything to do with Annie LGBT Plus team, even basic
sex education guides for kid's stuff. That's pretty mild. I'm
perfectly happy to give my own my own kids, and
I'm not the most woke guy. But they'd start ripping
them up, they'd start taking them out of the library,
filming themselves burning books at home. It was really crazy stuff.

(11:29):
And at that stage again you did get anti anti
fascist organizing. But what you kind of get is figures
like Connor McGregor being amplified by the likes of Elon
Musk being amplified by you know, Tucker Carlson coming over
interviewing him, or Donald Trump of course inviting him to
the to the White House, I mean the Prime Minister

(11:49):
of Ireland, as we'd say, gay like the teacher Mehall Martin.
He was invited to the White House on the twelfth
of March. But the guy that Trump chose to actually
have there on Patrick's dage itself was, of course, Connor McGregor.
And McGregor has links to I wouldn't say far right figures,
but certainly very populous figures. And McGregor has kind of

(12:10):
started he's become God killed, and he started rambling on
about you know, rosary beads and the power of Christ
and all this kind of stuff. And he doesn't strike
me as a particularly religious man. And now with the
help of Tcer Carlson, you know, and and Elon Muskin others,
he says he's going to run for president, and we
have a presidential election coming up here in six months.

(12:31):
Did you watch the interview, Robert.

Speaker 2 (12:33):
No, No, I haven't yet. I caught some clips of
it all on social media. Yeah, but I haven't gotten
to sit through the whole thing.

Speaker 3 (12:39):
It's wild. Bears absolutely no resemblance like what Connor puts
across bears no resemblance to what's actually happening in Ireland.
Like he started ranting about how the police are so corrupt.
Element that's true, but he starts talking about how the
traffic core, the road cops who give you like speeding
tickets and stuff. They're the most violent and repressive and

(12:59):
all all this kind of stuff, and it just so
happens that Connor McGregor has a string of speeding violations
in his sports cars. And then Tucker Carlson chips in
and says, Oh, my god, you've got these armed cops
and they're they're repressing the Irish people, but they're letting
these immigrants do whatever. My dad was a copier for
thirty years. My dad was on the border in the

(13:20):
nineteen seventies with the IRA shooting at him and he
didn't even get a gun. Our cops aren't armed. But
Carlson is just throwing this stuff out being educated about it,
and he says at the very end of the interview,
McGregor says, Oh, there's been a government kind of hit
job on me. They're planning to bring me down. What
he's referring to is a civil trial now, not a

(13:42):
criminal trial. A civil trial that Connor McGregor lost when
he was brought to court for alleged rape and sexual
assault and the jury believed he's accuser. A woman called
a hairdresser called Nikita Hand, and Connor McGregor was forced
to pay damages of a quarter of a million euro
to her, plus costs in the Irish High Court, which

(14:03):
are about one and a half million euro. Now to
you or me, that would be you sum of money.
To Connor McGregor, that's nothing. And I have to say,
for legal reasons he is appealing it. But the reality
is that standing in the way of any political ambitions
Connor McGregor has, And we just had here in the
last six hours last year. We had a local election
for like local councils, a general election, a European parliamentary election,

(14:28):
any one of those. All he needed to do was
put up one hundred and fifty quid and he could
have stood. He would be on the ballot. In fact,
under Irish electoral law, he could have stood in every
single constituency in the country. And he didn't stand for election.
And now he's complaining that he's being debarred from the
Irish presidential race and he's not. It's just it's an

(14:49):
exceptionally difficult ballot to get on.

Speaker 4 (14:52):
You can't just.

Speaker 3 (14:52):
Stump up the money in America and become her party
candidate or a writing candidate or whatever. That doesn't work here.
You need this sport of a large number of democratically
elected politicians to get there. So I think McGregor's relaying
is not to get into the presidency, because really he can't.
He's not even going to be on the ballot. But
I think he wants to be Arland's Arland's answer to

(15:15):
Tommy Robinson. And I suppose if Tommy Robinson is the answer,
what the hell was the question?

Speaker 2 (15:19):
Yeah, well, we'll get into that more in a second.
I do want to throw to ads here really quickly,
and then we'll continue to talk about Connor for a
moment we're back. So you say he wants to be
the Irish answer to Tommy Robinson, which is such a

(15:43):
like I'm a higher man like that. It's odd to me,
Like I had kind of I had kind of been
worried because we've had so many cases of guys in
the United States who start out as these absolute jokes
on the far right and then you just see them
pick up more and more attention over time, and that

(16:04):
was kind of my worry with Connor. But but you're
saying you're kind of concerned more that he's going to
continue to be like an organizing presence on the far
right rather than someone who has much of a chance
of picking up actual like political office.

Speaker 5 (16:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:17):
I think with Connor it's it's all about his ego,
which is probably what you'd expect from an MMA star.
You know, there's going to be an element of you know,
ego and show voting and kfab and so on. I
mean it's interesting and he's interview with Tucker Carlson. He
was giving out that the Minister of Education, you know,
isn't a teacher, they're unqualified for the job. And the
Irish government's Minister for Health isn't a doctor. And it's like, well,

(16:39):
what qualifies you to be president Connor? You're a former
plumber turned for MMA fighter, you know.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
Yeah, getting hit in the face. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:46):
And we've had ministers of Education who were teachers and
ministers of health who were doctors who happened to be
totally awful. The reality is like, we have a pr system.
We've you know, very democratic and fair process, and we
have more than the two parts system here. But I think,
like as emerged during the during that Civil Right trial
which McGregor lost. You know, he had to admit to

(17:09):
his cocaine use during it. He has been sending out
kind of fevered I would imagine cocaine fever trip tweets
saying as President of Ireland, I have the power too.
And it's like, man, the election hasn't even happened yet
he's way ahead of himself. He's not going to get
in the ballot. He knows that he wants to present it.
And I mean the fact that he's even talking about

(17:30):
getting in the ballot shows he doesn't understand the constitutional
system here, which it's not like Britain. We have a
written constitution. It's not that complex if you know the
basics of the law. He's never going to get in
the ballot, but he wants to present it that he's
been denied the opportunity to stand. And unfortunately, what we
have around the country is an increasingly violent anti immigrant

(17:51):
street movement that whenever these what we call him here
ipass in International Protection Applicant services, these IPA or refugee centers. Basically,
when these are picked as places of accommodation by the
government while these people's applications for refugee status or they
have to stay somewhere while these are being examined, you

(18:13):
tend to get large protests in towns, villages, cities all
over Ireland. Sometimes he's turned quite violent. Sometimes there's been
more than thirty arson attacks on these centers. And I
think what Connor McGregor ultimately wants is he wants to
be able to tour the country attending these protests and
having everyone queuing up to take selfies with him and

(18:33):
telling him what a great hero he is. And I
think that's he's ultimately.

Speaker 2 (18:38):
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (18:40):
And he's obviously he's going to grift off the back
of it. The guy has money already. But it was
so funny this multime multi millionaire being interviewed by Tucker
Carlson saying we're going to start fundraising from my campaign.
It's like, man, you have more money than you could
ever spend on political posters and buyers and adverts. You know.

Speaker 2 (18:57):
So it almost sounds like this is like a retire
plan for him, right, Like he's he's he's clearly past
his prime in terms of the getting hit in the
face thing for money, and now he's sort of moving
on to like drifting off of these far right events
and probably traveling just ahead of a series of riots,
you know, Like that's that's seems like what's in his future.

Speaker 3 (19:17):
Yeah, And I mean we've had some you know, at
the time of an outbreak of rioting in Dublin antimorgan
violence which caused twenty million euros worth of damage and
you know, trash the city center in November of twenty
twenty three Connor and I'm not saying he directly caused it,
but he was tweeting at the same time Ireland as
a war, yeah, and around the same time he was

(19:37):
tweeting like any property that's been taken over by foreigners evaporated.
I think really his plan is to kind of if
he can represent himself as a political martyr figure. He's
hoping that it will overshadow the you know, his loss
in the rape case, and he is a course appealing
that and claiming he has new evidence and everything. But

(19:58):
I think really that's what it's both.

Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah. So let's talk a little bit about the way
far right violence has looked in Ireland like these when
these protests have really kicked off, because it seems like
there's been this kind of fairly significant acceleration in the
last three or four years in terms of it, particularly
arsen attacks, and one thing that I was kind of
struck by in your notes was the degree to which, like,

(20:22):
no one's been arrested for any of these yet.

Speaker 3 (20:25):
No, what happens. These started around twenty eighteen, so maybe
just before COVID you had one or two of them.
And my book went to print in December twenty twenty four,
so I stopped counting in December, and by then I
had over thirty arson attacks and there hasn't been a
single conviction for any of them. So it's when usually

(20:46):
former hotels that have been closed down with years are
that the government moves in or some local person moves
in to renovate them and use them as one of
these centers. They'll just go up and smoke in the
middle of the night. And I mean, we have all
ready a very significant homeless problem here. I mean there's
more than ten thousand people homeless in Dublin, both Irish

(21:07):
and refugee, and I mean that probably sounds small to
someone listening in a big American city. We thought we
had a housing crisis when we had two thousand people homeless,
and we got more than ten almost fifteen thousand people
homeless now. And some of these anti immigrant protesters have
actually burnt down homeless accommodation designed for Irish homeless people

(21:29):
in the mistake and belief that it was going to
be used for refugees. Yeah, so that's their contribution to
the housing crisis. You've also seen stuff like attacks on politicians' homes.
Sometimes it's just pickets, sometimes it's graffiti. In the case
of Martin Kenny, who's an opposition TD, he'd be from
shin fein Alrety. Most of your listeners would probably have

(21:50):
heard of an Irish Republican, kind of left wing Irish
Republican party. There was a refugee center plan for where
he lived in Leitrim, and in fairness to he spoke
out against it and he condemned what he called, quote
the far right ideology that has been peddled in this
country about asylum seekers. A week later, he was sleeping
in his house with his wife and kids, and his

(22:13):
car in the driveway was petrol band was firebombed and
they came back a few months later and did it
again and he was forced to move house. So arson
attacks and politicians homes is something we haven't seen here
since the original fascists were around in the thirties as well.
And this violence. Again, like as I said, there hasn't
been a single arrest. And I give you a perfect example.
The title for the book Burned Them Out, is from

(22:35):
an event that happened in February twenty twenty three. A
guy stood up in front of a Garda police station
here in Fingles, which would be a big suburb of Dublin,
and there was a huge crowd of anti immigrant protesters around.
One of them was waving a swastika flag and this
guy stood up in front of them with a megaphone
in front of the police station said there is no
point standing here outside of Garda station. The only way

(22:58):
to deal with refugees is to burn them out. Go
where they're fucking staying and burn them fucking cunts out.
That's a direct quote. And of course, had he been
threatening that violence against the guardy, had he been threatening
that violence against a private business or a politician, I
have no doubt he would have been arrested straight away.
But this you know, masked guy threatening violence in Arson

(23:19):
was just allowed.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
To walk off.

Speaker 3 (23:21):
So there you go. They're certainly not on the ball.
And we've even had during the COVID pandemic when there
was a cop nearly killed that had a fireworks shot
at him during one of these riots. The police commissioner
in the South of Ireland, who's formerly a member of
the Royal Ulster Constabulary, a very controversial pro British police
force that used to be in the North. This guy's

(23:42):
our new police commissioner down south, and he tried to
blame Republicans and the IRA for the violence and left
wing extremists for the violence that was happening. And it
was so clear that you know, Republicans, Irish Republicans have
been on the streets opposing these people and their marches
for years.

Speaker 2 (23:59):
Yeah, let's talk about that a little bit. Like the
actual organizing of the anti fascist movement in Ireland, how
is it kind of responded to the mean explosion in
some cases a literal explosion in far right violence on
the street, Like are you seeing it kind of reach
like new Heights or does it kind of seem like

(24:20):
it's unprepared for the moment that we're hitting, because, like
I mean, in the United States, it's kind of hard
to tell because things have changed so much since twenty twenty, right,
Like a lot of the fascist violence that we're seeing
is now explicitly from the state, and so there's just
not a lot of on the ground. There's not the
same kind of on the ground response to it that

(24:42):
you were seeing when it was groups like the Proud Boys.
And I'm wondering kind of how things have changed since
twenty eighteen in that regard in Ireland.

Speaker 3 (24:49):
I suppose, like if you think back as far as
twenty fifteen, Tommy Robinson, friend of the Pod, attempted to
organize He's Anti Islamic, He's Islamophobic Pigida movement right to
launch a branch of it in Dublin, and they couldn't
even get to their rallying point because there were five
thousand anti fascists on the street there against them, Irish Republicans,

(25:10):
Irish language activists, Muslim community from Dublin were their LGBT activists,
and they couldn't even get to have their events. So
up until COVID, certainly the anti fascists and groups like
Anti Fascist Action Ireland were excellent at closing down small groups.
You have a lot of people who are doing online
research and exposing these people sorted histories and their international connections.

(25:35):
So that's one thing we're pretty good at. And what
it turns out is that a lot of these guys,
like one of the main proponents of the QAnon conspiracy
theory here was a guy called Rowan Croft who just
happened to be a former British Army soldier. So that
doesn't fly too well in Ireland from somebody standing up
saying I'm a gait Irish patriot and I'm going to
stop the foreigners, Like, well, hang out a minute. When

(25:56):
you chose to fight in the military, you chose to
serve the Queen of So you have big national groups
like Anti Fascist Action, you have groups like Anti Imperialist
Action Ireland. Thankfully, as these protests have sprung up around
the country, these fair right, anti imigrant protests, they have
always been countered. And I'm thinking of in Cork City

(26:18):
when the library was being attacked and it actually had
to be closed down for a period, and it was
the first time that the Cork Library had closed since
the British burnt it down during our revolution in the
nineteen twenties. And you know, you had a crowd of
maybe one hundred far right and people on the opposite side.
The anti fascist scene kept building and building until by

(26:38):
the end, and I was there for some of these protests,
we had four or five hundred against them, and eventually
we decided, right, we're going to stand and protect the library.
And that happened in another places like Limerick, and it
happened in Dublin, and eventually the far rights said, well,
we can't even get near the library to have our
protest anymore, and they dissipated. One thing that's very interesting
here is the optics and sometimes on the lefts and

(26:59):
on the anti fascist side, we're not as good at
the imagery and the using new technology and stuff. And
one thing you'll always see is, you know, when anti
fascists are mobilizing in Ireland, you know they'll have often
red flags, they'll have the Palestinian flag, they'll have Irish
left wing Republican flags like the plow and the stars.
But often we don't carry our national flag the Try

(27:21):
color as much. And of course the far right love
fetishizing flags and they have the green, white and orange
Irish Try color everywhere. Often. Of course these people are
so ignorant they fly it the wrong way around and
it's the orange, white and green, so it's like vive
lookout Divoir. It's the Ivory Coast flag if you have
it the wrong way. But it's interesting in some of
the clashes you'll have anti fascists with the Irish flag

(27:44):
and fascists with the Irish flag. But I think just
in terms of optics, it sometimes looks very bad when
the far right are able to clip out a section
of the opposing crowd and say, look, they have Palestinian flags,
they have all other LGBT Pride flags, but they're not
proud to be Irish. They don't have Irish fla and
there could be some Irish flags kipped off at the stide.
So these people in the far right are very good

(28:04):
at using the history of Irish politics and resistance to Britain,
and using the imagery of that struggle and co opting it.
And I think it's very important that we on the
on the anti fascist side don't surrender any of that
to them. And I mean the Irish flag what it
stands for. The green bit is for Catholics who wanted independence,
the orange bit is for Protestants who wanted to be

(28:25):
linked with Britain, and the white ones for peace and unity.
So it's a flag that and it's for the essence,
you know, talks about respecting a religious minority of people
from a colonial or immigrant background who arrived here a strangers.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
Yeah. Yeah, well I want to I want to continue
this discussion and then close things out. But first we've
got one more ad break to do and we're back.
So yeah, I kind of wanted to end this by

(28:59):
looking into a like what are you kind of looking
for in the future, like in the in the kind
of the next year or two in Ireland, like you,
what are you expecting? What are you worried to see? Like, yeah,
what do you kind of see? Cut moving forward here.

Speaker 3 (29:14):
I think what's tending to happen now is genius out
of the bottle and far right messages spreading. And you
had this big far right rally of you know, ten
thousand and five to ten thousand people at its maximum
that came down O'Connell Street in Dublin, the main street
in the capital city. It's not huge by political standards,

(29:35):
but it is worrying. I think we're going to see
that grow. And I think on the left sometimes and
particularly in the trade union movement, we have this idea
that all this is a flash in the pan and
will organize a few big rallies and they'll go away.
They won't. This is like the National Front in Britain.
You know, these people are going to be around haunting
Irish politics for least a decade, and then they're never
going to fully go away, that they'll pop back up again.

(29:58):
I think we're going to continue to see the regional protests,
and I think as well we have started seeing the
Irish government, which is a coalition of two center right parties,
kind of tighten up their own language on immigration. We're
starting seeing an increasing number of deportations as well. The
police really still aren't fully on the ball. They are,

(30:21):
of course being given new policing powers by the government
to deal with violent protests. They are being issued with
things like, you know, new non legal technologies, you know,
peppers play and extra equipment and body cameras that they
wouldn't have had before. But of course the classic thing
is that these will always be used as much, if
not more so against the left and the anti fascist

(30:42):
side than they will be against the racists. Thankfully, these groups,
you know, they're all in fighting with each other. They
have tried to do like electoral paths and to plan
out political strategies. But thankfully they're all so fixated on
wanting to be the furire that never really works. But
going to say a minute ago, is that that ten
thousand people, if there were that many on the street.

(31:04):
Not everyone in that is far right. You know, some
of the people are from working class communities that have
been betrayed by the government and have been abandoned, and
they are starting they've just fallen down the rabbit hole.
And I can think of an incident. I was in
the gym a couple of months back and just sitting there,
and there were a few guys. Didn't know they were
around chatting. Obviously we were in the gym. None of

(31:25):
us are in the sauna. None of us had many
clothes on, and none of these guys had like questionable
far right tattoos or anything like that. But the conversation
suddenly started about immigrants and how they were bringing crime
and how they were bringing disease and all this kind
of stuff. And I listened to it for a minute
or two and I just stood up and said, lads,
everything you are saying about immigrants in Ireland now is

(31:46):
what was said about Irish people in America in the
nineteenth century and in England in like the seventies and
the eighties. So I think it's important that even in
our workplace is on public transport, when we hear it
this the talk we call it out if it's a
friend of ours who's fallen down the rabbit hole into
these conspiracies, because that's how their message is spreading.

Speaker 6 (32:07):
Now.

Speaker 3 (32:07):
Often when you see people involved in some of this
anti immigrant rioting, they have no history of involvement in
far right groups, but it's that message has spread beyond
those groups thanks to our friends in the nerd Reich.
And I think if we have a work colleague or
a brother or somebody who falls into that that we
don't abandon them. We don't immediately start calling them a

(32:29):
Nazi and whatever that We try to talk talk them
round to it. But look, I suppose the thing is
there is hope, and everywhere these people have organized, there
have been anti fascists there to meet them. I think
we need to get better at planning that in a
national scale. Of course, on the left you always get
this fascialism and in fighting. I'm not standing beside him,
he's tratskis well, I don't like his views in the north.

(32:51):
Whatever we need to kind of say, as long as
we're fighting with each other, the fascists are winning, thankfully.
None of these people have ever gotten more than two
percent in an election. They have nobody elected in our
national Parliament. They only have four or five, maybe six
councilors elected in the entire of the southern part of
the country. And that's out of nine hundred and forty

(33:11):
nine councilors. But we can't just laugh at them. We
can't worry the sisatle threat because when the Nazis stood
for election the first time, I think they only got
two percent of the vote as well, and look how
that turned out.

Speaker 2 (33:22):
Well, yeah, and as we've seen in the US, like
what starts as this tiny, tiny number of freaks and
weirdos can wind up being a mass movement if it's
not you know, cauterized, right Like that's and that's that's
kind of the challenge in front of Irish anti fascists
right now is ensuring that that cauterization happens absolutely.

Speaker 3 (33:43):
And I mean, look, if you think of this, you know,
Elon Musk has Tip McGregor for president, and we're all
laughing at it now, but you know it wouldn't be
the first time that Elon Musk has tipped a reality
TV star with a questionable sexual and criminal history for
high office and they got.

Speaker 2 (33:58):
There, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, thank you so much.
Do you want to have anything you want to plug
here at the end of the episode, I mean your
book obviously.

Speaker 3 (34:06):
Yeah, well obviously I'm not I'm not on ex Twitter
anything like that. I don't have a substack or anything.
So just the main thing I want to plug is
my book Burned Them Out, a history of fascism and
the far right in Ireland. It is published by Bloomsbury,
head of Zeus, so it should be available in any
to order via any bookshop obviously. If you are going
to support a bookshop, support a small independent one Roger

(34:29):
than Barnes and Noble. And if you are buying it online,
obviously buy it from direct from the publishers Bloomsbury. Don't
buy it off Amazon if you can, because god knows
Jeff Besis has enough money.

Speaker 2 (34:40):
Yeah, there's certainly bloody well, thank you so much, and
yeah that's our episode. Everybody come back tomorrow when we'll
have another one.

Speaker 7 (35:10):
Welcome to that and here a podcast, and I forgot
to write an introduction for I'm your host, Miya Wong,
and we are well, okay, we're not taking a break
from the horrors, because this is also still a podcast
about the horrors and what you can do about it.
But you know, I am a transgender. One of the
ways that we have been like depersonified via transgender is

(35:32):
through a you know, a massive attack on trans like
trans women in sports. And this has led to, you know,
like the acceleration of like the broad scale attack on
all of us being able to exist as people. And
with me to talk about this is someone who has
written a book that is about this and also kind
of not about this in a lot of ways, and

(35:52):
that is Victoria Ziller, who is a writer author writes
about the Buffalo bills for our friends over at Defector
sometimes and is the author of a new book What
are the Boys Out Today? When you're listening to this, wow,
crazy wild, Yeah it is it has syncd upe like
this completely on purpose. We were one hundred percent planning
this from the beginning. Hello, thank you for having me.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
Yeah, I'm excited to have you on.

Speaker 7 (36:15):
So you would think that the question that your book,
one of the boys asks is what if a transchool
played football? But the actual and more important question to
ask is what if a poster could write fiction? And
the answer is that it fucking rips?

Speaker 4 (36:27):
Thank you?

Speaker 7 (36:28):
Is this this book rules? I Jenuily. I think this
is the best written group chats I've ever read in
a book. It rips it so good.

Speaker 4 (36:38):
I am very passionate about group chats, you know. I
mean like posting is writing. Hello audience. If you don't
know me, my name is Victoria. I'm online. You may
know my Twitter or blue Sky accounts at dirtbag Queer.
I'm like largely posting about football when football is in season.
I kind of just post about random shit these days.

(36:59):
But yeah, I've allegedly written a book. The weird thing
about writing a book is that I feel like I've
just totally blacked out actually writing it. And I'm like,
that's crazy. Who did that? Couldn't be me? But yeah,
in terms of like how I would like very quickly pitch.
One of the boys, high school senior named Grace comes
back to her high school football team. She quit over

(37:22):
the summer because she came out as trans because her
teammates want to make a push for a state title,
and it's like trans coming of age, Friday Night Lights
handshake meme. But also when I was like big picture
thinking about what I wanted to do with this, I
wanted to tell kind of a like traditional high school
sports story, but through an outsider lens. Like if you

(37:44):
think about the average like high school football story, you
think like, well, what we're gonna do is we're gonna
win state, we're gonna get the scholarship, and we're gonna
get the girl. And I wanted to sort of like
deconstruct those three things by making the protagonist trans and
making the protagonist a instead of like linebacker or a
quarterback or whatever, and that is who I am.

Speaker 7 (38:06):
Yeah, and this this book rips that sounds like a
fun thing going on where it basically has like the
football iceberg, where like you can come into us knowing
zero ball and you will get stuff out of it.
And you can come into this where I am knowing
like a some ball and you will get some out
of this. And then like the unhinged people who have
like sixteen different PFF tabs like pinned their bookmarks will
be like holy shit, the world building.

Speaker 4 (38:27):
Yeah, yeah, that was h it is. It is hard
writing fiction about sports if you're writing young adult fiction,
you know, which is what one of the boys is.
Don't be weird about that. If you're an adult, teenage
girls are like, oh, you don't have to hate the
things they like. You can like call down a little bit. Uh,

(38:48):
But yeah, writing about football for an audience of like
teenagers is like fascinating because you have to assume that
the audience knows very little and you have to figure
out how much you want to give them so that
they get it without like overwhelming them, which is like
really just not at all what I wanted to do.
But also, yeah, if you're a sicko like me, you

(39:10):
can be like, ooh, I'm really into what this offense
is doing, or I am really into this like onside
kick play design. So I tried to, like do I
tried to do a little bit of both. And also, again,
this is a transcoming of age story, so yeah, it's
also dealing with you know, the horrors. So yep, ball

(39:32):
plus horrors is what we're working with here.

Speaker 7 (39:36):
Yeah, so I think, okay, we're going to get more
into the politics of this in a second But first
I want to ask one ball question since I have NOWBT,
I have now introduced my audience to the fact that
I talked about football by managing to get a rant
about de Sean Watson on here for like ten minutes,
the Sewn Watson trade. But okay, my one ball question
for this was how happy did it make you when
you figure out a way to write a football team

(39:57):
that does not use the forward pass?

Speaker 4 (39:59):
Oh?

Speaker 6 (39:59):
Man?

Speaker 4 (40:00):
Uh, it's without without spoiling what happens at the end
of the act one turn, circumstances occur so that this
high school football team has to move a player who
is who is not a quarterback two quarterback, at which
point passing just goes away and we are just running

(40:22):
the ball, baby, we are we we are pounding the rock.
It's so sick. It is kind of sort of like loosely,
what I based this on was the year that the
University of Kentucky football team, like all like every single
quarterback got hurt and they were like, Okay, Lynn Bowden,
you are our best wide receiver. We're just gonna put

(40:44):
you a quarterback and you know, we're just gonna see
what happens. And that's like that was the fun of
writing fictional football is that I can make my fictional
football team do whatever I want, and I don't want
to ever see conservative trickery that is the forward pass,
get it out of here.

Speaker 7 (41:04):
Yeah. This is one of the things I love about
you're writing is that you are very much just like
an old school like traditionalist football pound of the rock,
like none of this, like none of none of this
fuck an RPO bullshit person which is which is also
I don't know, it's just very funny that you have
like you have like the football personality of like an
extremely cranky, like seventy five year old like coach from

(41:27):
like the seventies.

Speaker 4 (41:28):
Yeah, and I'm a trans woman yeah in rules, which
like again I tried not to do too much of
it in this book. Like part of the reason that
I made my main character a kicker, which we will
also talk about other reasons later, but part of the
reason is that kicking is this sort of like own
separate salad off thing. So I really only have to
like get the audience to understand kicking and what happens

(41:51):
when Grace is on the field. I don't have to
get into like what a football team that like never
passes the ball, like is doing a technical level. We
don't have to do all that. I give you just
enough that if you are a sickoh, you're like, yeah, baby,
like this rules.

Speaker 2 (42:08):
This is the sickest offense of all time.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
But also yeah, but also like you know, trying to
trying to help the queer kiddos understand that, like running
the ball is the official football position of the working class,
of the poltariat.

Speaker 6 (42:31):
You know.

Speaker 7 (42:35):
Okay, we're going to get more into the class dynamics
of football the second. But the place I kind of
want to start in terms of, like you know, talking
about the parts of us at art just ball is
so in a lot of ways, this is a book
about scriptlessness, which is something that I think, I don't know,
like we've been seeing a sort of resurgence of trends
or not resurchens, but I kind of like surgeants, emergence, emergence,

(42:59):
there we go, there we go, there we go. Yeah,
of transliterature, and I think this is a very interesting
angle to take on it. And it's you know, when
I say scriplessness, it's about the ways in which trans
women in particular don't have you know, sort of examples
and paths to like follow. Right, there's not like a
you're supposed to go from A to B two C.
This is like what you're doing with your life and
you have to just figure it out because suddenly you're

(43:22):
you and you just you just have to you know,
there's no rails, there's no guide, You just have to
do it. I think the Sapatista line about it is
that the road is made by walking. Can you talk
about how like having to just figure the shit out
influence the way that you write Grace and the way
that you sort of write this book.

Speaker 4 (43:39):
Yeah, So this is something that Grace struggles with a lot.
I mean, like specific to her, it's because she's a
trans woman who's playing football, something that if an openly
trans woman has ever openly played, like American football, there
is not a lot of documentation of that online. So
like Grace, she is like walking a path that has

(44:02):
like never existed before. But I think, like more broadly
and more like thematically, there is that like Grace is
also frequently I call her stupid, and I don't think
that she's stupid, but calm up. But Grace struggles a
lot to like express herself I would say, and like,

(44:22):
I wanted her to like challenge what a reader might
expect from a trans girl in young adult fiction. Specifically,
we're like I think she's like frequently kind of like grading,
or at least I find her grading. She is not
traditionally feminine. I don't think she's unfeminine, but she like
struggles a lot with like feeling okay enough to like

(44:44):
express that about herself. Yeah, and like, I feel like
a lot of stories about trans kids have this view
of being a like younger transperson of like, well, it
was always easy for me, and I took to finity
like a fish in water, and like this was like
natural to me. I wanted to write a character for

(45:04):
whom it is not necessarily natural for Grace to be
this person, and I wanted her past and the way
she is now to sort of like challenge a like
cist reader specifically, but also in terms of scriptulousness in
a more like macro way.

Speaker 2 (45:25):
There's not a lot of ya.

Speaker 4 (45:28):
Contemporary fiction about transgirl characters like at all. There is now,
thankfully a good amount of trans male representation in the genre,
but there are a few authors who are out here
writing transferm contemporary but like not a lot so like
figuring out like where I wanted to like slot in

(45:50):
to this like genre that is kind of like struggling
to be born, you know, not a lot of transfem
like seventeen year old protagonists who are like going to
like parties and drinking beer and worrying about whether or
not they want.

Speaker 2 (46:08):
To go to college, which is all is all.

Speaker 4 (46:10):
Stuff I wanted to like touch here.

Speaker 7 (46:13):
Yeah, And I think there's a bunch of levels of
this stuff sort of operates on and I think it's
very like I don't know, like a lot of being trends.
And I say this at least for me, I don't know,
like maybe maybe this didn't for other people. Was just
like having no idea what the fuck you're doing and
just you know, waking up one day and realizing like shit, wait,

(46:35):
what the fuck do you mean I'm doing this? And
it's like, you know, I got think about this, like
doing this job. It's like wait, what the fuck I'm
a trans podcaster? Like what like I can't even.

Speaker 2 (46:47):
Do my makeup? Well, like what the fuck are we
doing here?

Speaker 4 (46:51):
Yep?

Speaker 7 (46:52):
I think that like an never think that I've talked
about I talked about this a lot in the show
is but it's also just like how kind of like
normal the trans girls who just like suddenly something blows
up and they're like Internet famers or whatever the fuck
are that. They're just like some kid until like, yeah,

(47:13):
you know, there's just like an explosion and everyone is
suddenly interested in every intimate detail of your life and
is trying to deconstruct it in order to destroy you.

Speaker 4 (47:19):
Yeah, Grace is Again I don't really want to like
spoil act act three stuff here, but later on the story,
Grace achieves some amount of like Internet notoriety for what
she's doing. And yeah, Grace is like an extremely typical kid.
She has like typical kid problems. But then this like

(47:42):
microscope gets put on her and she's she is sort
of like forced to like become this like different thing
that like if she wants to be that thing someday,
it's not now.

Speaker 8 (47:54):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (47:55):
Yeah, I think in a lot of ways, my book
is about how we ask teenagers to like do too
much and be too much. But like, especially trans kids,
when you transition at any age, you are building the
plane of your personality while you are flying it, baby yep,
And like that's so much pressure to put on anyone,

(48:16):
but like especially anyone who is a kid is just
like there's a lot of pressure. And I wanted to
I wanted to like juxtapose the parts of Grace's experience
that like a like sis boy or girl could read
and be like, yep, I also don't know where I
want to go to college.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
But also like sort.

Speaker 4 (48:35):
Of like show like well because she is like this,
she is facing this like unreal level of scrutiny that
is like not normal, deeply unnatural and like fucked up
and like unfair.

Speaker 7 (48:50):
Yeah, speaking of unfair, we have to go to ads.
We come back. That's one of my better pivots. I'm
proud of that one. When we come back, We're going
to talk about masculinity.

Speaker 2 (49:16):
We are back.

Speaker 7 (49:18):
So one of the boys is weirdly the second football
involved book about a trans woman that I've read in
the last year, and I think it's fascinating because in
the like pure archetypal sense from structuralless anthropology, it is
like a pure structural inversion of Alison Greeves is How

(49:39):
to Fly, because how to Fly is this is also
a good book, but How to Fly is about a
girl getting forced fem to escape masculine violence. Why they
come and a cheerleader and one of the boys is
about a trans woman going back into into a hypermasculine
space to become a football player. It's like they're just
literally perfect structural versions of each other. And so I
wanted to ask you about how are you thinking about

(50:04):
doing this thing right, which is which is going back
into these these hyper masculine spaces that a lot of
people come out of pre transition, you know, when when
you were sort of writing this, because this is not
a thing that people tend to write when they're writing
about transfems.

Speaker 4 (50:22):
Totally and sort of the like irregularity of Grace's path
this way is like one of the reasons why I
was like drawn to like writing a sports story about
like a trans girl playing football specifically, is because like
I probably have a like more I don't know if

(50:43):
complicated is the word, but I have like a very
like interesting relationship with masculinity. And as much as I'm
like fascinated by it, like I think it is like
endlessly interesting to see the ways that like men construct
the like various kinds of masculinity that they live in
and the like various outcomes that men can end up

(51:06):
finding via their weird distinct masculinities. For instance, for me personally,
I'm still in my like old high school like boys
group chat like that we like started like a decade ago,
and like I have never once had a problem fitting
in there. When they all found out I was trans,

(51:27):
was like, oh shit, cool, whatever we're gonna keep talking
about like the NIX, you know. And like again, Grace's
journey with masculinity is different from mine, but kind of
like her, I have like some amount of like difficulty
and like very masculine sports spaces when I was a kid,

(51:50):
but then like once you adapt and once you like
learn how to like perform this thing, Like I never
had a problem existing in these worlds. And like something
that Grace is really annoyed by is that people are
always like I just can't believe that, like you would
be trans, And what is hidden in there is like

(52:12):
you were kind of a dick. You were like kind
of a douchebag. Yeah, So, like I very much wanted
to write a trans protagonist who has a relationship with
like her past self and with her male friends. That
was like a little more complicated. Were like she has
a like very good, solid group of like male friends

(52:35):
who are not like perfect, but are still like that's
my friend. So like I think for my friends and
for a lot of trans women's male friends, they're like, well,
I was friends with you before, so like you're still
like you know, you're still you.

Speaker 3 (52:53):
I'm still gonna be cool with you.

Speaker 4 (52:55):
So I guess that means that I have to think
about like that I have to like, okay, now I
have to like think about how like trans people are
like treated by society more broadly. And it's like interesting
seeing men in my life like suddenly become like cognizant
of like transitions, and it's all like personal. It's all like, well,

(53:18):
I know this person, and therefore I'm going to show
compassion to this person that I like. And then you know,
politics starting at the personal and sort of like growing
out from there.

Speaker 7 (53:30):
So I want to ask a bit more, just digging
into sort of the masculinity aspect specifically, because one of
the things I think is I don't know that there's
a part of being a transfem that isn't super well
understood outside of it, which is sort of a lot
of trans women have a phase where you really try

(53:51):
to be a man, right, where you get like really
into like hypermasculinity in order to try to like yeah,
try to make yourself do it. Like I had gamer
me a phase, which was a fiasco, not even gearing
me if I'm still sort of game and be but
I had, like you know, I had I had like
like top point two five percent Heartstone player, like the
a wreck a disasters substantively a worst person. Yeah, and

(54:17):
you know so, and like that's the thing that has
a lot of complicated social ripples. Were like this this
process of like like doing this, you know, sometimes it's
like your final them. It's just it's just what you're
doing to try to get by. It's like trying to
force yourself to be a man and like do this
masculinity in a way that's like really shit because you're
trying to like reconcile it with yourself. Yes, So this

(54:39):
is like a thing that a lot of like transforms experience.

Speaker 2 (54:43):
I think it's.

Speaker 7 (54:44):
Written interestingly in this book. And I was always wondering,
I don't know, like like the way you talk about
being in this in like fitting into these spaces as
like okay, well, I figured out how to like do
the performance okay, and then it was sort of fine.
So I'm wondering, like this is almost universally seen as
like this is like a formal structural violence that's been

(55:05):
enacted on you that you sort of have to like
do this. But there's also a kind of I don't know,
a kind of complicated dynamic of like these people are
still like your friends and you like them, and I
guess I want to know sort of how you've been
thinking about like that specific angle and like this sort
of process of fitting in and becoming and also just

(55:26):
this is sort of unbecoming you have to do to
like become yourself.

Speaker 4 (55:30):
Yeah, So my book has flashback sequences that are written
in second person. This is mostly a book that's written
in first person. But I tried to like really lean
into this like phenomenon of like closeted trans women like
butching up at like certain moments in their lives in

(55:53):
order to like pass and cram down this like feeling
that is like really fucking scary at first.

Speaker 3 (56:01):
So like.

Speaker 4 (56:03):
I want the second person grace flashbacks to her like
starting fights and being a like asshole to her girlfriend.
I want them to feel like jarring, and I want
them to feel like Grace is being a bastard in
a lot of these flashbacks, but like I also wanted

(56:26):
to show like how she gets there in terms of
like various moments earlier in her life where she was
sort of like shunted into this more like masculine path
in order to like pass and like not be bullied
or like other eyes, and like it definitely is. It's tough,

(56:48):
and I think that I think that I personally have
a like complicated relationship with Like, Yeah, like I hated
football when I played it. And I did it because
like I like the sport obviously because I'm a fan,
and because I wrote this book about it, and because
I write about football some times and I boast about
it a lot, but like playing it made me miserable,
but like I also made friends with that team who

(57:10):
I still talk to. So it's like I definitely wanted
to feel like violent and imposed, but also like it
isn't something that can be like erased. It's something that
you have to deal with. It's something that like as
you grow up and as you continue to self actualize,
you have to like decide what parts of that version

(57:35):
of yourself are worth keeping and what parts aren't. And
that's like something that I wanted to show, like Grace
struggle through kind of in real time, is she's like
very early in her transition, and she doesn't know how
she wants to present, and she doesn't know how much
of like her old life and the people in her
old life that want to associate with her, or does

(58:00):
existing on this football team dragger back towards something that
she doesn't want to be anymore. It's all stuff that
I wanted to play with. And it's not like overtly political,
but is like subtextually political, you.

Speaker 7 (58:13):
Know, yeah, well it's it's it's political in the sense that,
like you know that we were talking about sort of
scriptleussness earlier, right, And I think one of the one
of the sort of alienating factors about being trends is that, like,
especially if you're like kind of alone and you're like,
you know, like you're like the only transferm that you're
spending time with.

Speaker 2 (58:30):
Right, This is just.

Speaker 7 (58:32):
True for like a lot of things, like a lot
of how sort of oppression functions and a lot of
how violence functions. Is by convincing you that this is
the only You're the only person's ever gone through this,
m h. And there are always going to be unique
aspects of it. But like, you know, one of the
ways that alienation has maintained is by convincing you that
no one else can understand the thing that's happening to you,
and that because no one else has ever done it.

(58:53):
And it turns out like, no, actually, this is something
that like all of us have gone through. And when
when you sort of start to realize just the kind
of solidarity that could be built based on this collective
well of experience we've all gone through, and how it
can be you know, changed by actual actions of a
bunch of people working together, it changes things. So I
think I think it is in a lot of ways

(59:13):
political in the sense that like, in order to have politics,
you have to have sort of like collective assemblages of
people who fucking understand each other and to understand that
they're not alone, that they can do things totally. And
this is part of how you get to that.

Speaker 4 (59:28):
Yeah, we can talk a little bit more about the
like very start of something that could be seen as
a political awakening that Grace has in this book, but like, yeah,
part of the reason that she isn't perfect is because
she doesn't know any other Like there are no other
transmitment characters in this book, And that was very deliberate. Yeah,

(59:50):
Grace is like on our own. She is like figuring
this out as she goes yep. And I wanted it
to feel rough and like ad hoc because like that's
how it is for a lot of people.

Speaker 2 (01:00:00):
That's how it was, like go through it by walking.

Speaker 7 (01:00:02):
Yeah, yeah, I guess, I guess I want to kind
of move into the more directly political realm. One I
think is interesting about this book is that, like Grace
and this is something that like I my brain has
been so melted by having been like the politics kids
since I was like fifteen, because I was like my
high school was like interrupted in the middle of it

(01:00:22):
by be trying to overseell the Turkish government, and so like,
my brain is so melted. We'll get air to one
one day. We already can't go there for our coverage
of Kurdish gorilla movements. Very good stuff. You'll find many,
many such things, I think. But like one of the
interesting persons about this is that Grace is like not political, right,

(01:00:43):
and most of the people in this aren't. And there's
kind of a divide between the politics knowers who are
like the more uh you know, who are like okay, yeah,
like we we are like the queer kids. We are
like the activist kids, and then like the you know,
like the ballplayers, and then Grace sort of fits more
into the like not even more. Grace isn't like a

(01:01:04):
politics person. Grace is a like, hey, like transphobia is bad,
we shouldn't do that, but also like just wants to
fucking go kick a go kick a rock between two posts.
So yeah, can you talk about like how you sort
of decided to make her just be like kid who
doesn't follow politics.

Speaker 4 (01:01:20):
Yeah, So like that was like not any kind of
like statement about how like politics is bad.

Speaker 6 (01:01:26):
You know.

Speaker 4 (01:01:27):
That was like Grace's seventeen, and most seventeen year olds,
if they have politics at all, have like completely incoherent politics.

Speaker 2 (01:01:35):
Yeah, because I was like, holy shit.

Speaker 4 (01:01:38):
Yeah, So, like Grace has the like barest outlines of
like ideology, and those were like put on her by
people in her life. We know that her dad is
a union man, and from a small age she has
internalized that unions are good. Does she know why probably not,

(01:01:58):
but or all so we know that her friend tab
who is Bori, has been like educating her on like
Puerto Rican Independence, which was like which was a like
that was a very funny lie, right, because because Grace
is as like dumb as shit white kid from the suburbs,

(01:02:19):
but so like inasmuch as she's like piecing together the
person she is bit by bit, she's also kind of
like piecing what she thinks about the world together along
with that in terms of like most of the straight
white players on the football team like do not have

(01:02:39):
like basically don't have politics. There's a scene where one
of my minor characters is like, yo, I just figured
out that, like trans phobia is bad, and I loved
I fucking loved writing that. But like, I imagine that
up until recently, Grace was exactly like this and just

(01:03:01):
like just like yep, I'm a middle lower middle class
white straight boy air quotes on all of that, she
never had any kind of like thought about that.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
That does not.

Speaker 4 (01:03:15):
Reflect what was going on in my life when I
was a teenager, because I was a very annoying oh
like me and a friend of mine, Chavon, got in
trouble for putting a Bernie Sanders twenty sixteen sticker on
her locker, because that's the kind of shit.

Speaker 7 (01:03:33):
We were doing in.

Speaker 4 (01:03:35):
High school in twenty fifteen. So like, I was like
very much had sort of like vacant liberal middle class
kid politics, but like Grace, Grace is. I imagine that like
later in her life, she kind of has more political

(01:03:56):
thoughts in her head. But I also kind of imagine
that her brain works like I don't know if you've
played Disco Elysium, but I kind of imagine. I kind
of imagine Grace has a like thought cabinet, and it's
like she has like she has like two slots in it. Oh,

(01:04:16):
she just like cannot hold that many ideas in her
brain at once. So she's she is in all aspects
of her life trying her vest and trying to get better.
And yeah, I want to like I feel like a
lot of contemporary YA that comes out these days, a
lot of the kids have like overly coherent politics. I

(01:04:39):
was like, nah, nah, I wanted to write a kid
who has like good intentions but has no idea what
she's doing.

Speaker 7 (01:04:45):
Yep, God, my brain's doing the Trump flying. In many cases,
have no idea what they're doing. Yeah, oh Jesus, crash,
braids and broken. Okay, speaking of things being broken, the
products and services to support this podcast unrelated statements.

Speaker 2 (01:05:08):
We are back, Okay.

Speaker 7 (01:05:09):
So, having now gotten like many far into this interview
without directly being like, here's the football politics, let's talk
about the politics of football. Because one of the things
that I think is fascinating about, you know, the way
you're sort of talking about this, and the way that
Grace like runs into this, and the way that this
is just like a thing that happens in the US,

(01:05:31):
which is that like giant portions of the entire US
economy and like like structural elements of the US like
education system from like the ground up, and like all
of these sort of contracting services, like massive portions of
like how every single part of the education system from
like fucking like middle school through college are all bent

(01:05:52):
around this game, yep. And I think one of the
things that happens there is that like the they're kind
of like default ambient politics. It is very conservative, and
I think in ways that you know, are very easy
to understand, and that when people tend to talk about this,
they immediately go like, well, yeah. So like you know,
like the left is talking about football, it's like you're

(01:06:13):
talking about the militarism, which is like yeah, I mean
they're fucking flying jets over games like there, we're not
even in wars anymore. In terms of like US ground
troops deployed, Like why the fuck are their troops showing
up on the field. There's like the cult of masculinity stuff.
There's you know, I mean, like there's been some engagement
now with the racial politics of it with Kaepernick. People

(01:06:33):
realize like holy shit, wait, there's been like stuff happening
here for ages, and you know when you get sort
of the masculinity politics. But there's I think a lot
of stuff here that we don't talk about on the
left in terms of like the class dynamics of this
and the way that football I'm just like functions in
a lot of very very weird ways in terms of

(01:06:55):
like sucking together this weird pool of a bunch of
like non working class kids and like, I don't know,
fucking see if I knew ball, I could I could
pull an example off top of my head of like
some some quarterback prospect you'd spent his family had spent
like two million dollars on like personal trainers for him.

Speaker 4 (01:07:15):
Absolutely.

Speaker 2 (01:07:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:07:17):
I grew up sort of like middle lower middle class
and like playing football specifically, and I grew up playing
mostly like soccer and baseball, a little bit of basketball,
but I sort of like I sort of ended up
playing football when I was like a teenager because I
was large, and that's how that works. And like in
terms of like connecting with people who weren't white and

(01:07:40):
of my exact class status or higher like football sow
it happened. Man, like most of my earliest friendships with
black kids with Hispanic kids was like all through football,
and like it is a like very interesting of like
class and racial melting pot at least at like I

(01:08:06):
went to a like pretty big suburban middle and high school,
but like lots of lots of very different kinds of
people ended up at my school, and lots of very
different kinds of people ended up playing football, And like
you're gonna get a more diverse slice of that student
population on a football team than you will on the

(01:08:29):
fucking yearbook committee or in like school band, class government, whatever.
All of that came very naturally to me in terms
of writing this book, where like I've ended up with
a book that's like quite diverse. But I didn't really
do that on purpose. I just kind of like, who
are the kinds of kids who end up playing football?

(01:08:50):
And it's like everyone you have like Poorish kids like Grace,
and then you have like Ritish kids like Ahmed or
Dre in my book, who like I very much wanted
to like show that, like maybe one of the reasons
that Grace is going to end up having a more
coherent politics is because, like she has friends of different

(01:09:13):
backgrounds that she might not if she had not ended
up playing this this like fucked up, evil, violent game.
To be clear, Yeah, I mean, I think any football
fan who is honest with themselves and has his politics
that are not evil has a very complicated relationship to
the game for a like variety of reasons. Because it

(01:09:34):
will like choose up people's brains and there's that, but
there's also like implied conservative politics. There's also a big
factor here is that high school football, even at a
public school like mine, the religion is all over it, baby.

Speaker 2 (01:09:50):
Like all over it. Yeah, that's a huge part of it.

Speaker 4 (01:09:53):
Jason Kirk of The Shutdown Full Cast is working on
a book about the like history of Christianity and college
football called Church and State. I'm very fucking excited for
that book.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
Hell yeah, yeah, that sounds awesome.

Speaker 4 (01:10:09):
But it's just like really interesting political space because of
how diverse it is and because of how like homogeneous
a lot of the like religion and.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Politics of it are, I guess if that makes sense.

Speaker 7 (01:10:22):
Yeah, And it's soundso weird because like, you know, so
like I don't know, I refuse to watch college football,
Like I draw the line there, like I'm not doing this.

Speaker 2 (01:10:30):
I'm not doing this.

Speaker 7 (01:10:31):
They can't make me watch like fucking Colorado's State or
whatever the fuck.

Speaker 2 (01:10:35):
But like one of the.

Speaker 7 (01:10:36):
Things that you get in the NFL too, is it's like,
on the one hand, like you have all of this
really really conservative shit right, like every fucking everything is God.
Like every single time someone holds a thing in front
of a player there there's like at least three lines
of like all of this is possible because of God.
And like someone's like it's like that the only place

(01:10:59):
you see people regularly saying Christ is King where they're
not also like holding an ar to like a non
white person's head, you know. So so that there's all
of this like really really conservative religious shit. But then
also there's like a union. Yes, then everyone's in and
it's like a large like I mean, it's not that powerful,

(01:11:21):
and there's there's weirdness there too, because you get to
see all of the really interesting dynamics of unions that
you don't really get outside of kind of like I mean,
like I guess like SAG kind of has this, but
it's this union in this place where one the owners
have like an unbelievable amount of control. It's a hideous
amount of power, and they can turn through people really quickly.

(01:11:44):
They have you know, these are some of the richest
people in the world. And then also secondly there's there's
this like marketization force that's happening where you know, you
get to see in miniature the way that capitalism has
like moved to to sort of deal with unions, deal
with sort of the class movements of the twentieth century,
which is that like they're also trying to turn all

(01:12:06):
of these kids like into entrepreneurs.

Speaker 3 (01:12:09):
HM.

Speaker 4 (01:12:10):
I think in the NFL, I think it's more coherent
because there is a players association, not a union.

Speaker 7 (01:12:16):
A players association, although also also shout out shout outs
to the PA for backing are for backing a unionization
attempt here.

Speaker 2 (01:12:23):
Thanks for that.

Speaker 7 (01:12:24):
I don't know if it mattered, but that's a lot
to me.

Speaker 4 (01:12:28):
Yeah. Also, like sports players, unions are fascinating because these
are people who are part of a union who are
like at least some of them millionaires. So it's yep,
a very interesting sort of like class dynamic happening there.
But like call it like the college game right now
is just charn Oldhouse. I mean, like it is better

(01:12:52):
now that players are being paid like unambiguous good that
players can profit off of their name, image and likeness.
But again it makes like I remember, like I'm not
on Twitter much anymore, but like in the like early
Elon days, you started getting Twitter ads and these were
sixteen seventeen year old high school football players.

Speaker 7 (01:13:14):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:13:14):
The post is like huddle highlights and like a like
quick recruiting profile of like hey, class of twenty twenty
seven defensive back wide receiver out of Palo Alto, and
just like blasting that onto like Twitter timelines everywhere, just
like please God, somebody see my Like, somebody see these

(01:13:36):
fucking huddle highlights. The feudalism stage of high school and
college ball has like ended, and now we are in
the no regulations baby, just like completely unfettered capitalism stage.

Speaker 7 (01:13:52):
Can we explain like just how like very briefly, people
who do not know any football like what name, image
likeness is and how this is different from like a
system that would be normal, which is you pay the players.

Speaker 4 (01:14:03):
Yeah, so for like seventy years, the precedent with college
football in the United States of America is that all
these players are amateurs and they cannot be compensated in
any way. They cannot profit off of their name, image likeness,
so that means that they can't like sell autographs. The
school isn't going to sell jerseys that have their name
on them. You are meant to make exactly zero dollars

(01:14:27):
from your time as a amateur college athlete. And this
was the ironclad system for like seventy years, and then
it kind of got like destroyed overnight. Yeah, when the
NCAA finally legalizes players profiting off of their name, image,
and likeness, so that means that they could sign like

(01:14:48):
endorsement deals. And when this was first made a thing
in twenty twenty one, it mostly manifested in like the
Coldest Crawford for the Nebraska football team is filming a
ad for a local air conditioning company because his name
is the Coldest. And it was sort of like very

(01:15:08):
like quaint and cute at first, but then nil collectives
got going, which are these I don't even know how
to how to like god described collective is these are
like investment groups that operate independently of universities that pool
resources and then pay players for like extremely scant public appearances,

(01:15:33):
so that they can say that they're just profiting off
of name, image and likeness, but in reality they exist
as a way to pay college football players without paying
them via schools. Now, there is the house settlement happening
right now, which colleges will soon be able to probably
maybe God who knows, will soon be able to directly

(01:15:54):
pay college athletes a certain amount of money. Lord knows
where that's going. Like this is all changing at like
lightnings at like yeah, yeah, so like we have just
straight up gone from like nobody gets paid for anything
to like we are in fucking like gilded age robber
bear and shit where like yeah, because none of this

(01:16:15):
shit is regulated schools or an aisle. Collectives will go
back on agreements and everything's negotiated every year. They're like
like it's it's a fucking mess. Yeah in the college
game right now. So I mean all of that makes
the like NFL having a kind of shitty union look

(01:16:35):
a lot better.

Speaker 7 (01:16:36):
Yeah, well, IM just thinking about the kind of like
this is my way of kind of bringing it back
to transgender but like one of the things that I've
been thinking about a lot in terms of I mean
just like what I do, right, and but also just
like the way that capitalism has been moving in the
last like few decades is it's increasingly about you know

(01:16:58):
because like okay, so, like capitalism's fundamental base has always
been like you sell your labor, m right, but now
it's it's it's been increasing your shows for me into
like you're selling like the image of yourself. You're selling
your identity, You're selling like yeah, you know, you're selling
your personality. You're selling as much of like and this
is this is what name image likeness is.

Speaker 2 (01:17:16):
Right.

Speaker 7 (01:17:16):
It's like, we're not gonna pay you for like your labor,
which is like you playing football. We're gonna pay you
for like this nebulous image of yourself. So you get
all these people who like are are you know, you're
forced to turn all of yourself into an object for consumption,
and like I think that's the thing with like fucking
I don't know, That's what I'm doing on this show
right to a large extent, like I am like the

(01:17:38):
Asian transgender and like, yeah, obviously, like all of this
is like research, but it's also you know, this is
what like brand and identity is, and this has had
these like seismic impacts on the entire global economy. Like
I've talked about this an episode on when I talked
about Temu, but like Tamu is literally the product of
this happening with Chinese farmers. We're like Chinese farmers, We're
doing this like farm social media thing and so almost

(01:17:58):
like holy shit, what if we liked become these things
where they were selling food but they were also just
selling that like the identity brand of like themselves as farmers,
And Timu was like, well a PDD, which is the
Chinese company, was like what if we just brought all
of these things together in one spot so you could
just do directed like consumer sales through it. And now
that's like the entire fucking economy is just this morass
of like selling every single part of yourself and I

(01:18:22):
don't know, like I'm wondering how much of yourself did
you have to do you have to like leave in
a book like this, and how much of it can
you like kind of like keep away from the market.

Speaker 4 (01:18:33):
Oh boy, So like you're good. Yeah, Oh gosh, everything
is uh, everything is personal brands.

Speaker 6 (01:18:47):
Now.

Speaker 4 (01:18:47):
You know, there's a lot of pressure as an author
to use all your social media is in a very
particular way. You're supposed to. You're you're supposed to make
your cute little canva graphics and like talking about your
characters and engage with like prompt posts on Instagram and

(01:19:12):
you know whatever social media du jore And like, my
personal experience is a little irregular because I do have
some amount of like sports, Twitter, niche micro celebrity. I'm posting,
so like I'm not out here making promotional.

Speaker 2 (01:19:34):
Tiktoks for one of the boys.

Speaker 4 (01:19:36):
That was like something that was very important to me.
Was like, oh I'm not going to be doing that,
Thank god.

Speaker 1 (01:19:44):
That shit.

Speaker 2 (01:19:46):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:19:48):
The way that authors have to promote themselves and turn
themselves into brands is like a whole other can of
worms that like sucks so like, Thankfully, I think I've
managed to avoid the most alienation uh like forms of that.
But I did have a few not too long ago,
very confidently state that this book was loosely based on

(01:20:11):
my life story, which was news to me. I was like, word,
I didn't know that. So, like, I think, especially if
you write fiction as a person of any marginalized identity
if you're if you're black, if you're gay, if you're trans, whatever,

(01:20:31):
people are going to assume that you're writing like auto fiction.
Because I think a lot of people react to women's
fiction this way, because I think a lot of people
subconsciously have a hard time believing that like, women have
interior lives and can like imagine things, you know, Like,
I think a lot of people assume that authors are

(01:20:53):
always writing about themselves and writing about the people in
their lives, and uh, I mean, I'm writing about experiences
that I have had similar ones too, but like, nah, dog,
that is not how this works.

Speaker 7 (01:21:07):
Yeah, there's a really great essay about this by a
friend of min named Rosemary Hoe, who's absolutely brilliant writer,
who wrote about the she she's writing about Zady Smith,
and one of the things that she talks about is
like the way that people just assume that Zadi that
like Zadie Smith's politics are just like didactically coming out

(01:21:27):
of the mouth of a character, and like, well, no,
that's not how this shit works, Like yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:21:32):
It is. Uh, it's frustrating, and I think like a
lot of authors have their own experiences with this, so
uh yeah, yeah, I mean I like, you have to
turn yourself into some kind of brand. That's why I'm
going on podcasts, you know, So that's all, uh you know,

(01:21:53):
that's fun, but uh, I'm trying not to like, you know,
completely give myself over to the fucking torment nexus.

Speaker 7 (01:22:01):
Yeah, ye, you know, And there's like, I don't know,
this is also just like this is a way you
can just completely lose your mind. I don't know if
I've ever actually talked about this on this show. Weirdly,
one of the people whose career trajectory is the most
similar to Minus is Asian American writer named Lesley Yang,
who was like this guy who got brought in to
write about like I think it was Columbine. It's like

(01:22:22):
some mass shooting that was like a Korean kid did
his friends were like, hey, you're Asian, right about this?

Speaker 6 (01:22:27):
Oh god?

Speaker 7 (01:22:28):
And he you know, for a bit he was like
he was like duh, Like he was like he was
like the guy who was like the big like Asian American,
like this is like the literary thinker. He was like
interviewing Aaron Schwortz. He was doing like profiles of a
bunch of like interesting people, and then he just became
this like incredibly boring, bog standard reactionary and he became
one of these A very common kind of person who

(01:22:50):
you experience on the right is like someone who's experienced
who's like understanding of race comes from like watching sports
where they're like there are black players in basketball and
there's a bunch of them, and because of that, this
means that like actually black people are like overrepresented and
like as a class, they're like privilege or whatever the
fuck because there's just like a bunch of black basketball

(01:23:11):
players and I don't know, I think it's like there's
like a really interesting intersection here of like the way
that people understand politics as just like politics are just
like the thing that I see on my screen when
I'm watching football, and how we have to sort of
like just deal with that shit and deal with the
sort of micro identity formation that is real but also

(01:23:33):
isn't like a defiction of what the world is.

Speaker 8 (01:23:37):
M yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:23:50):
So one of the interesting things in this book is
that like the right wing media, like right wing football
media kinda isn't in it that much really, which I
think is fascinating And I wonder part of how much
of this is just like this was kind of a
book that was originally being written before like Aaron Rodgers
was going up Pat McAfee show in front of like

(01:24:10):
half a million people every single day and like screaming
about trans people.

Speaker 4 (01:24:14):
M So, this book has excerpts of like articles and
outside media and like social media, et cetera. Originally it
had like a lot more. I had to cut a
lot in order to make this book like legible as
a book. This book is already like pushing the edges
of what you could really communicate in ya in terms

(01:24:36):
of like I have a lot of characters, I have
a lot of shit going on, So like part of
it is just that, like I had to like you know,
trim et cetera. But like, yeah, originally it had a
lot more of that stuff, and there were like interstitial
snippets from a fictional sort of like football podcaster guy
who is like Pat McAfee and all of the like

(01:24:59):
bar stool former athlete podcasters, Yeah, in a blender, and
he like he was this like really pathetic former like
special team or linebacker who just like keeps reliving the
fucking glory days.

Speaker 2 (01:25:17):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:25:17):
Eventually I just had to like refocus and like, yeah, yeah,
bring that conflict closer to home with like school administration's
kind of shitty, and like there are plenty of dudes
on the football team who also suck. So I kind
of like left it in via some like shitty tweets

(01:25:38):
that you see, or you get a lot of it,
like indirectly you can imagine what is happening on the
fucking Pat McAfee show.

Speaker 2 (01:25:47):
Oh my fucking god.

Speaker 4 (01:25:48):
Yeah, But like also part of it is what you
said that the weird timeline of publishing means that I
started writing this book in February twenty twenty one, wrote
the majority in twenty twenty two, and edit it in
twenty three and twenty four, and like kind of this
like very organized anti trans reaction was not as prevalent

(01:26:10):
in twenty twenty one at all like I kind of
had to like track it as it started to like
really like form up a drill time. This is not
the world that I thought I was gonna write my
stupid little football book. Yeah, and and like have it
emerge into a lot of people are say that this
book is very timely, and I'm like, dog, this is

(01:26:31):
a Biden administration for him through.

Speaker 7 (01:26:34):
So one final ball question on behalf of my beloved
and a curse Seattle Seahawks. Okay, so think about Sam Darnold,
who's now our quarterback after they traded my beloved Gito
Smith for a fucking third round pick.

Speaker 2 (01:26:46):
Brother.

Speaker 7 (01:26:47):
Okay, so, like, is the thing that's going to happen
this season not just by week five? Abe Lucas goes
down for the twelve million time whatever child they dragged
out of a kindergarten to try to block the deal,
one hundred gets liquifight in ten milli seconds to Sam
Darnold just like start seeing the ghosts of men who
haven't been born yet, Like, isn't this exactly? Is this
just what's gonna happen? Why why did they build this
team like this?

Speaker 4 (01:27:09):
Can I attempt to give you a small amount of
Seattle Seahawks optimism.

Speaker 7 (01:27:15):
I thought they were gonna would have lived in games
last season.

Speaker 4 (01:27:18):
They should have. So we lost to the Flame Giants.
So I I really like some of what the Seahawks did.
They drafted a lot of players that I really like.
It's true they they finally took a interior offensive line
player in the first round. Congratulations, Uh yay. Gray's Abel

(01:27:43):
is a good player. He's also a maga aed shit,
which is what you want on your offensive line. No,
that's what you want on your offense. It's true, it's true.
But also like, god fucking damn it. So you got
Gray's Abel. You got Jalen Milroe, who Jalen isn't good
at football right now, but a sports media friend named

(01:28:04):
Derek Klassen put it that he's He's the kind of
player you want to bet on and then be wrong about,
just just because he's fun, because he's a like legit,
actual like special athlete special with the ball in his hand.

Speaker 2 (01:28:20):
He's cool.

Speaker 4 (01:28:21):
I really like Jaylen mil Roe. But you also drafted
later on. You took Tory Horden and Ricky White, who
are two of my favorite sort of like small school
wide receivers in the draft. Hell, you took Damien Martinez,
who is a running back who I think could end
up being a lot better than someone who's drafted in
the seventh round would indicate. And also you took a

(01:28:43):
full back. You took Robbie Oates. That's great. His name
is a Robbie Oates.

Speaker 7 (01:28:46):
A great name, great name, old name, old name team.

Speaker 4 (01:28:51):
He is a He's like the squarest football player I've
ever seen. Love love Robbie Oates. However, the Sam Donald
situation is tough.

Speaker 3 (01:29:05):
It's tough.

Speaker 4 (01:29:06):
I uh, I have a hard time seeing it happen.

Speaker 7 (01:29:13):
He would literally if you had put it behind last
year Seahawks offensive line, he literally would have died by
about week eight, like you just like straight up would
have died on the field.

Speaker 2 (01:29:21):
Oh god.

Speaker 4 (01:29:22):
Yeah. And like it's a bit better this year because
you have friends able, but you still have Abe Lucas.

Speaker 7 (01:29:28):
You know, you still have a We'll have a Lucas
for three weeks and then we won't have Abe Lucas
and then.

Speaker 4 (01:29:36):
And also like Sam Donald was in like the perfect
spot for him, and now he's going to be throwing
the ball too. I mean, you know you got Cooper Cup.
You got, you know, for four weeks, got JSN, but
you also have Marcus valdezk is he gonna is he
gonna get load bearing snaps?

Speaker 7 (01:29:53):
Like?

Speaker 4 (01:29:54):
Is that really? Is that really what you want?

Speaker 7 (01:29:56):
My cope last year was that was that JSN, that
Cas and Lockett was the most underrated receiver trio in
the league.

Speaker 6 (01:30:03):
Yep.

Speaker 7 (01:30:04):
And this year it's like, all right, we get six
games a Cooper Cup and then we get fifth rounders.

Speaker 2 (01:30:12):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:30:13):
God, it's it's tough out here.

Speaker 2 (01:30:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (01:30:17):
I don't expect Sam Darnold to work here, just like
straight up, Like I have been a Sam Donald truther
for years, but it is the classic thing of like
I think Sam Donald's better than most people think, and
then a lot of people are like one hundred and
thirty million dollars Sam Donald, and it's like what, hold on,

(01:30:37):
hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I didn't
think he was that good. I didn't think he was
traded Gino Smith good.

Speaker 7 (01:30:44):
No, oh god, So that's unfortunate. Yeah, so this this that,
this has been the football section of this of this podcast. Yeah, Sotoria,
do you have anything else that you want to say
before we head out? And where should people buy your
book from?

Speaker 4 (01:30:59):
Not Amazon on that's like really all I have to
say about that.

Speaker 2 (01:31:03):
Yeah, one of.

Speaker 4 (01:31:04):
The boys, my name is Victoria Zeller, and you just
buy that from bookshop, buy it from your local indie.
You can buy it from Barnes and Noble because we
don't hate them as much as we hate Amazon. But
like I would say, buy it from your local indie
bookstore is like ideal for me. I make the same
amount of money wherever you buy it, so it doesn't matter.

(01:31:25):
But if you want to sign copy, you can also
order it from my home bookstore, So there's that.

Speaker 3 (01:31:31):
Hell.

Speaker 4 (01:31:31):
Yeah, but yeah, my website is a Victoria dot monster
and all my links are there.

Speaker 2 (01:31:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:31:37):
Okay, I realized I had an actual final question that
I wanted to ask it I forgot to do before
this the fucking we started the intro, so I apologize.
So the odds here are much much higher than they
are in most places that there's going to be some
queer kids who fucking play ball to some extent listening
to it, And I wanted to I'm throwing something from
your book at you, which is I know, to the

(01:32:00):
what did you say it to the kiddos who are
going through it.

Speaker 4 (01:32:03):
This is so mean. Okay, Okay, I'm going to be
real with you right now. Guys, do what's best for you. Yeah,
fight if you have it in you to fight, But like,
you got to be a kid first and foremost, and
like trans kids, queer kids deserve the chance to be

(01:32:26):
fucking kids. They deserve the chance to make mistakes and
listen to music too loudly in their friends shitty car,
and they deserve to play sports if that's what they
want to do. I think in a lot of ways,
my book is about how we ask teenagers to be

(01:32:48):
braver than they should be, and I think that's bullshit.
So I'm not going to put it on You have
as much fun as you can, like ball if you can,
but do but makes you happy and when and what
feels safe to you is like really all I've got, Like,
you know, just have fun while you're able to as

(01:33:10):
a child is like yeah.

Speaker 7 (01:33:12):
No, And it's like, yeah, it's not if you are
like a little ass kid A I have so sorry
for how much U s We're on the show. Be like,
it is not up to you right now to save
the world. That is the job of fucking everyone else
who listens to the show. Like, if you want there
to be more queer athletes, if you want trans kids
to be able to be kids, that shit's on you.

Speaker 2 (01:33:31):
Yeah, all of the rest of you who listen to
the show, if you are.

Speaker 7 (01:33:34):
Also like the fucking one bazillion trans people listen to
the show, this is like a bit less on you
than it is on fucking everyone else. But yeah, but
the best time do I started organizing was like five
years ago. The second best time is right now, and
the best time after that is tomorrow. So go fucking
build a world where trans kids can be kids and
fall out.

Speaker 4 (01:33:53):
Let kids like me hoop, let them hoop, let them
hit dingers, let them ball.

Speaker 2 (01:34:01):
Hell yeah, my people need rings.

Speaker 4 (01:34:03):
My people need titles, they need trophies, they need championships.

Speaker 9 (01:34:29):
Hello, and welcome to It could happen here today. We
are talking about white genocide. And when I think of genocide,
there is only one name that comes to mind, and
it's Molly Congo.

Speaker 2 (01:34:42):
Molly, Welcome.

Speaker 9 (01:34:46):
I just I wanted you to be here as we
talked about the genocide of the white race.

Speaker 10 (01:34:50):
I mean, who better to talk about it than two
pasty fellas like us.

Speaker 9 (01:34:54):
M hmm, yeah, yeah, I'm sure we're like soon for
the chopping block here, Molly, what's happening?

Speaker 2 (01:35:01):
Why are we Why?

Speaker 9 (01:35:02):
Well, I will explain a little bit of what's happening,
and then you can tell me how on earth we
got here. The United States terminated its refugee admissions program
in January of this year, right when Donald Trump became
the president and signed a time of executive orders. So
since then, the United States has not admitted any refugees.
In February, it also stopped. The United States terminated its

(01:35:25):
cooperative agreement with refugee resettlement agencies, which meant that even
refugees who had arrived weren't getting the assistance that they
previously got. However, on the twelfth of May, the United
States have admitted fifty nine Africana refugees from South Africa,
and concurrently, Donald Trump told the press that what's happening

(01:35:47):
was a genocide of the white people. He said it
wasn't because they were white. He said there was black people.
He would do the same thing. I mean, there are
several genocides impacting black people right now, and they are
not getting refugee admissions to the United States. Apparently these
people are being genocided. So Molly, can you explain what's
going on here? How the white genocide happened?

Speaker 10 (01:36:11):
Sure, I mean, the short answer to that question is,
it is not happening. It is not real. It is
not a thing that is happening or in my opinion,
really could meaningfully happen under the conditions that they're talking about.
So again, like you said, they have terminated all refugee
resettlement programs. So people coming from active war zones, active
ongoing genocides, people fleeing political persecution all over the world.

(01:36:33):
They don't deserve our help. They don't need our help anymore. Right,
But these people, these people from South Africa are uniquely
experiencing the worst thing that could happen to a person,
I guess, which is white genocide. So white genocide, I
think is often sort of used interchangeably with great replacement theory.
So the white genocide conspiracy theory and the great replacement theory,

(01:36:55):
I think they're hand in hand. They're very similar, there's
a lot of overlap, and they're used interchange but white
genocide is much more specific and it's more recent iteration
on the theme. It comes from a mid nineties book
written in prison by a neo Nazi terrorist named David Lane.
David Lane notably coined the fourteen words we know, you know,

(01:37:17):
the fourteen we don't need to say. He had a
lot of anxiety that if we don't do something, white
people will become extinct, will be pushed out of existence
by immigrants who are out breeding us. You know, there's
this sort of concurrent belief that pornography, which is, you know,
in their minds, something that is a Jewish tool of
oppression of the white race. That is, you know, it's

(01:37:38):
causing us to do interbreeding, it's deluding our bloodlines. So
you know, all of these things together are going to
push white people out of existence, which again not happening,
not true, not a real thing that can happen, but
it's something they're very anxious about. But when you spend
a lot of time talking about how white people are
being pushed out of existence, you've got to be able

(01:38:01):
to point to something. You have to point to a
place where a white person has been meaningfully harmed, and
they can't really do that to the talking point that
they fall back on most often when you're talking about
white genocide, you know, you're really wringing your hands about this,
and you have to be able to point to something.
They point to the South African farm murders. Is this
idea that white farmers in South Africa are being targeted

(01:38:25):
for murder and mass that is this massive ongoing campaign
of violence, which again is not happening and is not true.
There is a more violent crime in the country of
South Africa than in other similarly positioned nations. They do
have a little bit more violent crime than we do here,
for instance, But if you break down the numbers and

(01:38:47):
they have they have conducted a multi year study of this,
you know, hypothetical phenomenon. White farmers are not being targeted
for murder. They're not being murdered in larger numbers than
any other demographic. It's just not a thing that's happened.

Speaker 9 (01:39:00):
Yeah, I know, it's almost like a laughable claim or like,
except that it's also terribly sad when like Israel, it's
just kind of Babe ruthing a genocide in Garza. Now
they're not even trying to pretend anymore. They're like, no,
we're going to kill everyone by starving them. That's what
we would like to do. And obviously those people cannot
enter the United States. It's refugees, but these folks from

(01:39:22):
South Africa can. How did it go from any Nazi
in prison to the brain of the President of the
United States.

Speaker 10 (01:39:30):
I mean that idea sort of filtered into American right
wing think space over the last I guess thirty years
since Lane wrote that manifesto from prison, slowly and through
multiple origin points. But I have argued repeatedly over the
last several months that we can point to you exactly

(01:39:51):
the moment that Donald Trump heard about this. There is
a specific moment in time in August of twenty eighteen
when Donald Trump first found out the plight of the
white South African and I have the date somewhere in
my notes, but it was it was one evening in
August of twenty eighteen when he was watching Tucker Carlson Shocking.
He was watching an episode of Tucker's show back when
it was still on TV, and he had some policy

(01:40:13):
analysts from the Heritage Foundation on to talk about this,
this terrible thing that's happening. And about forty five minutes
after that segment aired, Donald Trump tweeted the word Africa
for the first time. He has tweeted thousands and thousands
and thousands of times about a lot about Robert Pattinson's
relationship with Kristen Stewart, you know, things about diet coke,

(01:40:35):
things about vaccines.

Speaker 7 (01:40:36):
He's tweeted a lot of things.

Speaker 10 (01:40:36):
But he tweeted about Africa for the first time forty
five minutes after the segment on Tucker Carlson, and he
had bought into this idea that these people are being
uniquely persecuted.

Speaker 6 (01:40:46):
God.

Speaker 9 (01:40:48):
Yeah, Carlson has mainstreamed a lot of these like white
nationalists talking points, but yeah, this one. And you have
a really good series on this on your show, right,
Like if people want to people want to learn more
about the plight of the Africana, you can explain that
over several hours.

Speaker 10 (01:41:05):
Yes, I spent three months sort of tracing this story
in hainstaking detail. If you're interested in checking that out
over on We'd Little Guys.

Speaker 2 (01:41:15):
And you should. It's great.

Speaker 9 (01:41:16):
It's great, good podcast. I highly recommend. So, like we've
seen this thing gradually gained momentum, I guess. And then
at some point obviously someone got into Trump's here in
the last month and he made an executive order right.

Speaker 2 (01:41:32):
He shared the secret Order.

Speaker 9 (01:41:34):
I'm just going to read from it now, quote refugee
resettlement and other humanitarian considerations. The Secretary of State and
the Secretary of Homeland Security shall take appropriate steps consistent
with law to prioritize yeah, law, yea, we're gonna get
to that, to prioritize humanitarian relief, including a mission and
resettlement through the United States refuge Admissions Program for Africanas

(01:41:58):
in South Africa who are victims of unjust racial discrimination.
Such plan should be submitted to the President through the
Assistant to the President and Homeland Security Advisor.

Speaker 2 (01:42:08):
So like he's.

Speaker 9 (01:42:10):
Asking them to develop a plan basically for resettling these
white South Africans in the United States, right.

Speaker 10 (01:42:17):
Right, So when he says that it's not about race, now,
when he's pushed on that now and he says, oh,
it's not about race, it's not because they're white. They
word Afrikaaners appears in the executive order, and that doesn't
just mean South. That's not a demographic term for people
from South Africa. It is a racial term for the
descendants of Dutch settlers. Those people are white.

Speaker 9 (01:42:36):
Yeah, No, Like by definition, right, they are white South Africans.
They are like therefore definitionly the group that benefited from
the apartheid era very much.

Speaker 7 (01:42:45):
So.

Speaker 9 (01:42:45):
As if this wasn't clear enough, Christopher Landau appeared at
a press conference meeting these refugees wearing an orange white
and blue tie. It's quite a unique tie. I actually
googled orange white and blue. I couldn't find one for
people who are not familiar. That is the part idea
of flag of the Republic of South Africa.

Speaker 10 (01:43:06):
That is a deep cut. The decision to use that
particular color scheme when you're greeting these bore refugees is
very intentional and very odd.

Speaker 9 (01:43:18):
Yeah, it's got to be a choice, right, Like, no
one has a striped orange white and navy blue tie
like lying around.

Speaker 10 (01:43:26):
And the sort of dedication to reviving that as a
symbol is not without precedent. So with Dylan Rufe, the
Charleston church murderer, had on patches, he had the flag
of Rhodesia. Obviously they love Rhodesia. Yeah, but he had
the apartheid era orange white and blue South African flag
and that was strange and unique enough as a symbol

(01:43:48):
that an American would dig up and identify with yes.
So the South African press noted it at the time
of the Charleston church shooting.

Speaker 2 (01:43:55):
Yeah, it was not in the mainstream.

Speaker 10 (01:43:57):
That is a troubling sartorial trie.

Speaker 9 (01:44:00):
Yeah, yeah, it's it is worrying, like there's yes, like
you says, there's a line from the from the africaas
through Dylan Roof to this horrific ideology. Right, do you
know what what probably doesn't have a direct line to
a part We can't be sure of that, I guess,
but hopefully hopefully that these products and services do not
have a direct through line from apartheid.

Speaker 10 (01:44:20):
Well, probably it's not the Washington State patrol again.

Speaker 2 (01:44:23):
Yeah, all right, we're back. Hopefully that was something nice.

Speaker 9 (01:44:36):
I want to talk a little bit about the US
Refugee of Missions program. So I think people sometimes misunderstand
the program, what it means, where it comes from, who
it's for. So to begin with, like, I want to
distinguish between asylum seekers and refugees because I think in
like the popular lexicon, these two words are used interchangeably.

(01:44:57):
A refugee is outside of the United States and makes
an application through the US Refugee Admissions Program, and that
application is processed and approved or rejected or delayed or
left for years and years and years while they are
outside the United States. An asylum seeker is someone who
is either inside the United States or presenting at the

(01:45:18):
border of the United States and requesting asylum. So they're
different categories.

Speaker 2 (01:45:22):
Right.

Speaker 9 (01:45:23):
Generally, to be a refugee, one has to register with
the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, and thus one
has to have fled one's home country. It's somewhat notable
that this flight came from Johannesburg, right, Like these people
were in South Africa.

Speaker 10 (01:45:44):
Well, apparently DHS set up office space in Pretoria and
they were conducted these interviews in Pretoria.

Speaker 9 (01:45:51):
Right, which again is unusual. Right, So you have to
normally go to a resettlement support center.

Speaker 3 (01:45:57):
Right.

Speaker 9 (01:45:58):
And I want to talk about the process of background
checks in a minute, because surprise surprises didn't happen here,
at least not as far as I'm aware. If it did,
it to the most expedited version of this process that
we've ever seen. So these refugees have been admitted as
P one refugees, and people talk about P one like
it's a visa category. It's not actually it's a priority category.

(01:46:20):
There are four priority categories for people getting refugee visas.
P one cases, the highest priority, are normally referred by embassies,
the United Nations High Commission on Refugees, or non governmental organizations.
If people have heard of this at all, it's probably
with reference to Afghan folks who worked with the United
States who are not being omitted in the United States

(01:46:42):
refuge emission program right now. Some of them are stuck
in third countries, even at airports if they don't have
a visa for that third country, right, waiting to work out,
like what the US is going to do this time
after lying to them for decades and letting them down again.

Speaker 10 (01:46:58):
And unlike these realists state agents from Johannesburg, they can't
just go back home.

Speaker 9 (01:47:03):
Yeah, right, like that they actually have fear of persecution
if they do, which is not the case for the
South African folks. P two are people like there are
special groups designated for humanitarian concern like some congal these
people living in Rwanda in the past, and Bermese groups
living in Thailand have been P two. P three are

(01:47:24):
family reunification cases, so you can you know if one
person has refugee status come to the United States so
they can bring the rest of their family. And then
P four are people who have sponsors to something called
the Welcome Core. Familiar with a Welcome Core, Molly, I
am not.

Speaker 3 (01:47:40):
No.

Speaker 9 (01:47:40):
It sounds like the coolest brand to the military, you know,
like like you've got the Marines and then the Welcome
Core next door. The Welcome Core was set up in
twenty twenty three by the Biden administration to allow five
US citizens I think a minimum of five to get
together to sponsor someone for refuge admission for the United
States and basically take responsibility for their house seeing and

(01:48:01):
for like reorienting them in the US community, right, getting
their kids enrolled in school, helping them find a job,
all that kind of stuff. It was a cool program.
It lasted less than two years. That Donald Trump rolled
that up in January of twenty twenty five, so we
don't really have P four cases anymore. So all admissions

(01:48:23):
were holding in January and February, the government, as I said,
cut all cooperative agreements with resettlement agencies. So let's talk
about what the normal process looks like for refugees. Generally,
they require several years of background checks and interviews. For many,
it's not possible in their countries. For most right, for instance,
there is not a resettlement support center in Afghanistan, so

(01:48:46):
people have to leave. That's how you see them in
Pakistan right. What you're seeing now actually is Afghan people
who are in Pakistan have timed out on their visas
in Pakistan, so they're now facing like immigration enforcement there
because they haven't been able to get resettled in the
US before their Pakistan visa expires. They go through medical

(01:49:07):
and biometric checks. There are at least two interviews. There
are security checks. When they do their first interview, they
have to give in things like their identifying documents, work history,
declare of their family relationships, all that kind of stuff.
Then they have an interview with US Citizenship and Immigration
Service after that. Then if they are admitted, they take
cultural orientation classes before traveling. If that's when you learn

(01:49:30):
how to be an American. I don't know what involves,
but they have to take those before they come, and
then the US government works with the iom for travel right,
and that travel is funded through a zero interest loan
to the refugee. So like in every other case, you
pay for your flight. You have to pay it back
starting six months when you get to the United States.

(01:49:52):
That has not been the case for our Africana refugee friends,
right that it appears that the United States government chartered
a flight on their behalf. Once the refugees arrive, they
are referred to a resettlement agency. Some of the names
people might be familiar with, like Highest their Hebrew Immigrant
Aid Society, who have literally been resettling refugees since the

(01:50:14):
refugee in asylum see GA category was created right as
a response to the Holocaust. Maybe IRC is another one
people are familiar with.

Speaker 10 (01:50:22):
Which, interestingly, Hyas was the target of ire of a
great replacement theory motivated mass shooter here in America. Yesbert
Robert Bauers posted a lot about Hyas in the days
and weeks before he carried out that mass shooting.

Speaker 9 (01:50:36):
Yeah, the Tree of Life Synagogue. People aren't familiar. Yeah,
and that was at the time of the quote unquote
migrant caravan fall of twenty eighteen, would.

Speaker 10 (01:50:45):
It, Yes, that would be that time period.

Speaker 9 (01:50:48):
Yeah, that was a pretty big time. I was in
Tijuana a lot at that time with seeing a migrant caravan.
Folks were interviewing folks trying to help. Yeah, coming back
to that was remember thinking, like what a fucked up world.
So those people didn't get refugee emissions, right, those people
were here seeking asylum. The system right now is suspended. Right,

(01:51:10):
and as many as twelve thousand people who have been
approved are waiting for travel authorization should come to the
United States.

Speaker 2 (01:51:17):
So they're completely in limber.

Speaker 10 (01:51:19):
Right, You're in limbo and at great personal risk.

Speaker 9 (01:51:23):
Yeah, yeah, they're in I mean people spent twenty years
in refugee camps waiting to be admitted to the United States.
And like, it's hard for me to describe I tried
to my Darien Gap series, Right, how desperately sad refugee
camps are as places, right, And I think people think
of refugee camps a's like, oh, you go there for

(01:51:43):
a few weeks and you sleep under a big white ten.

Speaker 10 (01:51:45):
No children are born and raised there.

Speaker 9 (01:51:47):
Yeah, people live their whole lives in refugee camps. You know,
they're the ones that they tibermesport have been there since
the nineteen forties. But they live their whole lives, often
without even basic essential services.

Speaker 2 (01:51:58):
Right.

Speaker 9 (01:51:59):
I did see for since highest had a little school
in Lajas Blancas, which is one of these UN refugee
camps in Panama. The recent they have a little school
is because children spend so long there that they miss
out on their education if they don't have a little
school for them.

Speaker 10 (01:52:13):
And so that's just an insult to injury in this
whole process, right. It's not only is he shutting off
this avenue for refugee status for everyone else and giving
it to these people who, you know, I think it's
fair to say don't deserve it. Yeah, but he's made
this process so simple and so easy and so painless,
and that not only are they not fleeing persecution, but
they're getting this fast tracked, this easy pass.

Speaker 9 (01:52:35):
Yeah, and like we're paying for it. I mean I
remember recently some friends and I were helping someone who'd
admitted to the US not as a refuge actually on
a different visa category. But like they were really having
a hard time navigating the basics and funding that, so
like we were able to help them out.

Speaker 10 (01:52:55):
I mean, obviously international immigration is a difficult process. It
wouldn't be. I mean, you and you've immigrated internationally, right,
It's not a simple process. No, But looking at the
people who have taken Trump up on this offer of
refugee resettlement. These appear to be people who could have
simply immigrated had they chosen to.

Speaker 2 (01:53:15):
Yeah, it seems that way. They could have just moved.

Speaker 9 (01:53:18):
Yeah, they could have I mean come here on like
a B one visa or like, I mean, pathways to
citizenship are relatively rare if you just like, say, you
want to move to the US, right, like you just
want to become an American unless you have a bunch
of money. So like, these guys will have a pathway citizenship.
It's not quite clear how Trump said that they will
have one. What does that mean. I know, normally, if

(01:53:40):
you're omitted as a refugee, you can file for permanent
residency in a year, and then after a number of years,
you could file to be a citizen.

Speaker 10 (01:53:48):
I just noticed as we're talking, so you know, I'm
not familiar with how the process normally works. Like that's
that's your wheelhouse. That's something you're very familiar with. So
maybe this is normal. It just looks strange to me.
So I've been on vacation the last week, so I'm
just back today. So I just opened up the embassy's
website because you know, as I was writing this story
and sort of tracking this as it developed, there wasn't
good guidance from the Consulate on what this process would

(01:54:10):
look like. So I'm just looking at it again today
and they have updated it as of yesterday. This is
the US Embassy and Consulate in South Africa. New update yesterday.
There is a form you can fill out, James.

Speaker 2 (01:54:22):
It's a Google doc.

Speaker 10 (01:54:23):
It is a Google form. The US Embassy website has
a link to a Google form that you can fill
out if you want to become great.

Speaker 2 (01:54:33):
I'm sure that's highly secure.

Speaker 9 (01:54:34):
Yeah, well, well it's funny. I was on that website
early today as well. That is oh dear, that is sad.
I mean, yeah, I don't think a Google doc can
possibly be as secure as it would need to be
to have the amount of information the government gets on
you when you become a refuge is all the information?

Speaker 3 (01:54:55):
Right?

Speaker 9 (01:54:56):
Just to outline the criteria to be eligible for US
resettlement consideration, individuals must meet the following criteria. They must
be of South African nationality and must be of African
ethnicity or be a member of a racial minority in
South Africa.

Speaker 10 (01:55:12):
I thought it wasn't about race.

Speaker 2 (01:55:14):
Yeah, I thought it was.

Speaker 10 (01:55:17):
I thought it wasn't about race.

Speaker 2 (01:55:17):
James, Yeah, right, it seems.

Speaker 9 (01:55:20):
And then they must be able to articulate a past
experience of persecution or fear of future persecution. What they
don't mention here is that, like normally, there are protected
categories into which refugees and asylum seekers have to fit. Right,
there's a race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group,
or political opinion. I mean, I guess, I guess you
could argue that, like the Africanas are not per se

(01:55:43):
a race, right like that, like there are there could be.
It's conceivable that one could be white out of South
African nationality but not be Africana.

Speaker 10 (01:55:51):
Oh very much, so, very much so. I mean there's
a African is a very specific sort of genealogical lineage.

Speaker 2 (01:55:58):
Yeah, and like which is W's.

Speaker 10 (01:56:01):
Which is why I think they have been careful here
to say or a member of a racial minority, because
they're saying, like, look, we're not going to do the genealogy.
We don't care if your great grandfather was Dutch. We
just need you to be white. We just need you
to be white.

Speaker 9 (01:56:11):
Yeah, when you arrive, you can do a twenty three
and meter test and then they do your percentage and
you know, then they put you back on the plane.

Speaker 10 (01:56:18):
No, they just got the pantone color scale. They're just
going to hold up the page colored paint chip.

Speaker 9 (01:56:22):
Yeah, they get you at what they called fucking the
paint shop there where you go in and they mix
it for you. So yeah, they didn't mention these protected
categories here. The US State Department of Set has received
eight thousand inquiries from people seeking information about the refue program.
And that's a lot of people. That is a large
number of people. The Episcopal Church here in the United

(01:56:56):
States right like a notably woke organization, I would say Episcopal.
I mean they do good Episcopal migration ministries do good work.
You won't find me shaped talking. They do good things
for people who need help. It has ended its partnership
with the United States government. So I'm going to read
a little bit here from Presiding Bishop Sean wrote the

(01:57:16):
first time for me quoting a bishop on the podcast.
Since January, the previously biparts in US refuge admissions program
in which we participate has essentially shut down. Virtually no
new refugees have arrived, Hundreds of staff and resettlement agencies
around the country have been laid off, and funding for
resettling refugees who have already arrived has been uncertain. Then,
just over two weeks ago, the federal government informed episcocal

(01:57:38):
migration ministries, under the terms of our federal grant, we're
expected to resettle white Africanas from South Africa, whom the
US government has classified as refugees. In light of our
churches steadfast commitment to racial justice and reconciliation and our
historic ties was the Anglican Church of South Africa, we're
not able to take this step. Accordingly, we have determined
that by the end of the federal fiscal year we

(01:58:00):
will conclude our refugee resettlement grand agreements with the US
federal government, skipping a bit. Then, it has been painful
to watch one group of refugees, selected in a highly
unusual manner, receive preferential treatment over many others who have
been waiting in refugee camps or dangerous conditions for years.
I am saddened and ashamed that many other refugees who
are being denied entry to the United States have brave

(01:58:21):
people who worked alongside our military in Iraq and Afghanistan
and now faced danger at home because it has service
to our country. They also grieve that victims of religious persecution,
including Christians, have not been granted refuge in recent months.

Speaker 10 (01:58:33):
Good for them, honestly.

Speaker 7 (01:58:35):
Yeah, Like because I think, I mean think maybe people.

Speaker 10 (01:58:37):
Don't think about this or don't realize that a lot
of these programs like this is a federally grant funded
federal program through a partnership with the Episcopal Church. Like
you know, in the early days of DOGE, you know,
they were saying like, oh, we found all this wasteful spending,
all this you know, suspicious payments to these religious organizations.
Those are social programs we have outsourced. We have outsourced
all of these government functions to these church based social programs.

(01:59:00):
You know, for better or worse. Say about that what
you will, but that is in fact how many of
these things function.

Speaker 2 (01:59:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (01:59:06):
Like when I think about, like, you know, I've spent
a decent amount of time in refuge camps.

Speaker 2 (01:59:10):
The majority of the services that.

Speaker 9 (01:59:12):
Are provided by faith paped programs. Highest there's Bethtal World Ministries.
I think it's called Catholic charities. It'sian migration ministries, there's
caulca Aid, the Sikh Group, right, I don't think they
receive any federal Maybe I don't think they receive federal funding.

Speaker 10 (01:59:28):
But I think for the Episcopal Church as a massive
organization to come out and say, yeah, we won't dirty
our hands with this, that's incredible.

Speaker 9 (01:59:37):
No, it's great, and like more organizations should. I think
they're being resettled in Virginia for the most part.

Speaker 10 (01:59:44):
Good, that's where I live.

Speaker 9 (01:59:45):
James, Oh good, yeah, great, Well you know you could
take one in, Molly. You could have a little African
to come live with you, like a god.

Speaker 10 (01:59:53):
So Charlottesville where I live, Oh, you'll get some. It's
home to a large number of Afghan refugee family. It's like,
I know people who work with our new Afghan neighbors
and like helping them get settled in our community and
helping women get driver's license and get them sewing machines
so they can sew their traditional garments at home, and
like it's a beautiful community effort to welcome these people

(02:00:15):
into our town. But I just can't I just can't
imagine the worst people on Earth coming here.

Speaker 9 (02:00:21):
Yeah, well you can help with sewing machine rent you
could help us sew up a little pre pre Rainbow
Nation South Africa flag for them. But yeah, it is
like I've helped people arriving here on refuge visas and
like it's actually a really really affirming and wonderful thing
to do in your community, and like now it's a
time when you can still do that. All the people

(02:00:43):
who were resettled here before January, the funding that was
supposed to help their kids enroll in school, that were
supposed to help especially women learn to drive right, that
were supposed to help people orient themselves in the US,
find education, find work right. As a person who moved
to America, it is a very confusing place. You have
like seventy five different layers of government, none of them

(02:01:05):
really want to help you.

Speaker 2 (02:01:07):
That says a lot of forms to fill in.

Speaker 9 (02:01:10):
The rent is insane, right, and then you add people
drive like fucking maniacs, so.

Speaker 10 (02:01:16):
Like and we don't have healthcarerier James, I'm sure that
was a culture shock for you. But like so when
I was poking around in some of these Facebook groups
for these for the South Africans who are sort of
interested in maybe seeking this opportunity, and they were talking
about sort of the pros and cons and whether they
would go and how is the PROW process was going
to work. And the one fear that I saw come
up over and over again is like, well I heard

(02:01:38):
the healthcare is pretty bad. There is, Yeah, dude, it is.

Speaker 2 (02:01:42):
Damn yeah, damn don't come.

Speaker 9 (02:01:45):
Yeah yeah in some states, right, there are state funded
like safety net programs. I don't know about Virginia.

Speaker 10 (02:01:51):
And I'm sure I'm sure as as America's special and
only refugees, they will be afforded access to to all
available programs.

Speaker 7 (02:01:59):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (02:01:59):
Put them on try care after we've kicked the transfolks off.
That's how they're making up for the gap.

Speaker 2 (02:02:04):
Yeah, it's pretty bleak.

Speaker 9 (02:02:05):
Honestly, I would really encourage folks like give you are
listening to this and thinking, oh, it fucking sucks. So
those people have not been granted refugee status. I'm thinking
of Like I met a woman from Zimbabwe when I
was in Darian Gap who had come with her daughter. Right,
she had faced persecution at home in Zimbabwe, a country
that is not Rhodesia anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:02:26):
We're keeping score in.

Speaker 10 (02:02:27):
A country that was never Rhodesia. Rhodesia never existed.

Speaker 9 (02:02:30):
Yeah, right, Yeah, she went to South Africa right to
attempt to be safe, and persecution followed her that. So
then she took this journey all across the America's carrying
her kid through through the jungles and over the mountains
and through the rivers. And that's where I met them,
and we've stayed in touch.

Speaker 2 (02:02:48):
Right.

Speaker 9 (02:02:48):
She's in the United States now, she's working on her
asylum process, and it is expensive and it is by
no means secure. And this is like a woman who
has faced who fits multiple categories right in the protected
they've protected categories here, right, It's going to be very
hard and very expensive for her. And it really genuinely

(02:03:10):
fucking breaks my heart to see someone who like would
be such an asset to any community, who was such
a ray of light even in some of the hardest
places I've ever been. She might not get to stay
here and these folks will and that really makes me sad.
But yeah, if you have a chance in your community,
Like almost the way I sometimes find out about refugees

(02:03:35):
arriving or being settled is like on next door and
realists next door is mostly a site for aging racist
but like, sometimes people will be like, hey, there's an
Afghan family here and they don't. Like one of the
things in California is that you can rent a house
and they don't have to give you a fridge. Yeah,
a fridge is like a luxury, it's not it's not
for the pause. So like trying to help people find
a fridge before Ramadan, right, Like I have a truck,

(02:03:59):
a bigger I can lift a fridge into the back
of my truck. If someone has a fridge they don't want,
so like, that's the thing I can do to help,
and it makes me happy to do that. Then I
can carry a fridge upstairs. Like that's not something you
can do. There are a million other things you can do, right,
including just like having people over for dinner, cooking food
for them, offering to take them out on a walk
and show them your neighborhood. Like there are so many

(02:04:22):
ways that you can welcome people. And like, while people
aren't newly arriving, there are people who are still recently
arrived who really could do with some help. The government
isn't paying for any more. We can't stop the government
paying for flights for Africanas. But like you can do something,
you can do something positive and will maybe make you
feel better about the fact that you know, your taxpayer

(02:04:43):
dollars are bringing the poor, downtrodden Africanas from South Africa
to neighborhoods near Molly.

Speaker 10 (02:04:51):
And it's just such an ugly intersection, right, this is
not just like our adult brained president falling victim to
a racist conspiracy that he saw on Tucker Carlson, right,
like that that's how the idea got into his mind.
But I think this resurgence of his alleged interest in
the plight of the white South African is this terrible
intersection of personal grievance and financial interest, right that. You know,

(02:05:16):
it's no coincidence that the text of the executive Order
is not just about like you know, whites are being persecuted.

Speaker 7 (02:05:23):
But there is a.

Speaker 10 (02:05:24):
Hot shot on the side in the first section of
the executive Order that, like well, and South Africa has
been very unfair to Israel. Right that South Africa being
a leading voice in the international community on the genocide
in Gaza is part of this. That the inded they
need to be punished for their advocacy against the genocide.

(02:05:44):
When their ambassador was expelled. It was not a coincidence
that he is a Muslim South African who has been
very vocal about the genocide in Gaza, and that he
appears in public in a kufia that he's when he
was when he returned to South Africa after being expelled
from the United States. He was talking about Palestine when
he got home, and that's not a coincidence. And it's
also not a coincidence that Elon Musk is currently fighting

(02:06:08):
to launch Starlink in South Africa. Yeah, so this is
sort of a longer explanation which is just sort of
in brief. Since apartheid ended in nineteen ninety four, they
have racial equality laws that if you have a national
level company, something like starlink something you're going to provide
a national telecommunications contract that serves the whole country, there
has to be some black ownership of the country. They're

(02:06:29):
not saying that there can be no white executives. They're
not saying, you know, white people aren't allowed to do business,
but there has to be some black ownership stake in
the company. And large corporations around the world manage this
by establishing a local subsidiary that is owned locally by
a majority of black shareholders. Microsoft does it, like every
big company does it. Companies operate in South Africa. International

(02:06:53):
corporations operate in South Africa, and they do it every
day and they do it easily. But Elon Musk refuses
to do that. He refuses to have any black ownership
stake in his company or a local subsidiary. So he's
not allowed to have starlink there. Yeah, and so over
the last couple of months, he's been, you know, walking
out of meetings, he's been, you know, yelling at the
President of South Africa about how he's racist against white
people and so like this is personal, it's financial, and

(02:07:16):
it is a racist conspiracy theory and now we're all
having to live it.

Speaker 9 (02:07:19):
Yeah, it's also not a coincidence. So like Musk has
started interacting with some of these like white farmer accounts
on his racism ap right.

Speaker 2 (02:07:28):
I think that one.

Speaker 9 (02:07:28):
I think it's an maybe its screen name is just
bore or it's oh yes, a.

Speaker 10 (02:07:33):
South African news site recently unmasked that particular individual.

Speaker 2 (02:07:37):
Oh cool.

Speaker 10 (02:07:38):
Yeah, I haven't read the article yet, Like I said,
I've been on vacation, but they're they're on the case.

Speaker 7 (02:07:42):
Yeah, great, good, And I think about these.

Speaker 10 (02:07:44):
You know, white identity South African nationalist kinds of guys.
Is apartheid wasn't that long ago? Yeah, thirty years ago? Right,
So anybody god fifty year older who's talking a lot
about white identity in South Africa, I would just like
to ask you, what were you doing in nineteen ninety Yeah,
just tell me who you were hanging out with the
nineteen ninety because I have questions.

Speaker 9 (02:08:03):
Yeah, Like I remember the end of apartheid very like,
that's one of my earlier political memories. I remember, like
Nelson Mandela coming out at the Rugby World Cup in
nineteen ninety five, like that being a big people like
I guess maybe our listeners a lot of our listeners
are younger than me. But like, South Africa was something
of a pariah state under apartheid, right, Like they couldn't

(02:08:24):
people wouldn't even play sports with them. They didn't even
go to the IOC Olympic Games. And the IOC not
an anti racist organization, an organization which famously sent the
Olympic Games to add off Hitler's Germany. But yeah, they
were a complete global pariah. And to have gone from
that to like the US has to intervene in the

(02:08:44):
plight that persecuted Africana within my lifetime.

Speaker 2 (02:08:47):
It's a pretty fucking bleak.

Speaker 10 (02:08:48):
It is a quick turnaround and an ugly one. But
like I said, the average white South African who is
very vocal about white rights may have a very close
connection to a very recent act of terrorism, if you
know what I'm saying.

Speaker 7 (02:09:03):
Yeah, yeah, they're not just talk.

Speaker 10 (02:09:05):
It was very violent in the early nineties.

Speaker 9 (02:09:08):
Yes, yeah, Molly's done some good stuff on the yeah,
and on the violence of white South Africans. And I guess, yeah,
what folks in the US who are inspired by them? Molly,
do you have anything you want to plug? Otherwords, kuntu
Wei's way, I guess is what you want to plug?

Speaker 10 (02:09:24):
Right, Yeah, I mean I'm keeping an eye on their
treeson Case against Affro Forum. I think that's I mean,
it's just political talk, but it's fun.

Speaker 7 (02:09:32):
We'll see.

Speaker 10 (02:09:33):
Apparently the investigation is ongoing. But no, if you are
interested in more about how this happened, I did an
eight part series about political violence at the end of
apartheid and its connections to American neo Nazis. You can
check that out on Weirdle guys, it's a good time.
I think there's a really fun episode about Adulf Lunngren
movie from the late eighties. It was secretly fun to

(02:09:54):
my South African military intelligence. Yeah, it's a good time.
And uh we live in hell.

Speaker 2 (02:10:21):
Oh my god, it's it's it could happen here. It is,
and it's talking about it happening here. You know about
what we're you know, what's happening in a galaxy far
far away. These are the and Or episodes we're talking
about episodes Jesus, what is it?

Speaker 7 (02:10:37):
Seven through nine?

Speaker 2 (02:10:38):
Seven through nine of and Or Season two, when this
is done, will be three quarters of the way over with.
I mean, one of the best seasons of television ever made.
So you know, savor it, folks, enjoy it, and enjoy
these podcasts. Yeah, eloquent Garrison, thank you, thank you, arg

(02:11:01):
Me Harties raised the Hondo Anaka flag.

Speaker 11 (02:11:04):
And let's watch some and Or. This is episode three
of our Star Wars and Or Politics review podcast. The
person grumbling in the intro is Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis.
We are also joined by Mia Wong. Let's start with
episode seven. I think this ark on General might be

(02:11:24):
my favorite arc of the whole show. Frankly, they did
some really fun stuff. Oh yeah, and seven's mostly set up.
This is episode seven titled Messenger. I'll do a quick
overview and then we can discuss some of the setup
to the Gorman massacre. So rebel militias are forming an
army on the fourth moon of Yavin. Willman returns from

(02:11:47):
the planet Gorman with a special mission for Cassion Loosen
Once isb agent Detra Miro assassinated to protect the Axis network.
The Empires failed to secure an alternative live to the
Gorman mineral calkite, and ISP command tells Dedra that an
Imperial fleet will be sent to Gorman in two days

(02:12:07):
and to prepare for a declaration of Marshall domain.

Speaker 2 (02:12:11):
Yeah. I want to note at the start of this
kind of what we see because we're watching one year
jumps between these, this is the first time where it's
been made really clear the rebellion has moved on from
scattered insurgent groups to a functional army. Like when we're
introduced to Yavin, there's a transport landing, a group of
soldiers are getting off and they're being told like, okay,

(02:12:32):
your ration cards are here. And like you need to
report in here and here, this is where you're billeted.
It's very like standard professional military stuff. So we are
now at the point where the rebellion that Andor has
been portraying previously is not around anymore. The rebellion has
moved on largely, and those old networks still exist to

(02:12:53):
some extent, but that is not the heart of it anymore.

Speaker 11 (02:12:56):
Yeah, and that's a big part of what this episode
is starting to set up now on Gorman. Imperial presence
on the planet has already increased dramatically in the past year.
A new imperial headquarters the towers above the capital city
of Palmo. Security forces are stationed throughout the city with
checkpoints and a mandatory curfew. The past few weeks, there's
been stories of insurgent attacks against the Empire, most recently

(02:13:20):
the bombing of a naval depot. Imperial News reports that
quote unquote inexplicable Gorman.

Speaker 2 (02:13:26):
Terrorists their hate for imperial norms.

Speaker 11 (02:13:30):
Are getting help from quote unquote outside agitators.

Speaker 2 (02:13:34):
Which is not untrue actually for once, but also not
like the core of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and
I think that that's part of the part of the
point right like that. That's part of what Luthen's going
for is he wants to keep them sort of obsessed
with this side of things, in part because Luthan knows

(02:13:54):
that it's moved on, right, Like, Luthen knows that the
rebellion is in Yavin. Now you know he is. He's
not entirely a side show, but he's no longer the
heart of it. And yeah, every resource they waste looking
at his network is a time they're not spent looking
at Yavin.

Speaker 7 (02:14:10):
Yeah, and Luthan's still trying.

Speaker 11 (02:14:12):
I mean, like the outside agitators here is probably mostly
like Luthen's guys who've been trying to build up the
insurgency on Gorman simply to make some sort of political
crisis and then you know, also help the people who
have already committed to resisting the empire, help them actually
like do that beyond what the Gorman Front's been like
parading around and doing you know, little little protests in

(02:14:33):
front of the memorial for the past few years. Luthen
was like, if these guys want to do this seriously,
let's let's see what happens when we do it seriously.
And that's kind of what we've resulted to here. The
Empire has sent a quote unquote crisis specialist and a
riot team to assist de Dra in managing any civil unrest.

(02:14:54):
Cyril Karn starts questioning what the Empire wants with Gorman
and what he's really been doing Wing these past two years. Yeah,
Dedra tells him to pack his things, as they'll soon
be leaving together for Corroussant. Back on Yavin four, Bicks
takes a skeptical Cassian to a Force healer to help

(02:15:15):
with a stubborn blaster burn. Though Cassian resists, the healer
can sense that Cassian is somehow important. He has main
character energy. Cassian is split between Luthen and the growing
organized rebellion Yeah, but decides to take a rebel U
Wing Starfighter to Gorman and undercover as a journalist. Cassian

(02:15:36):
checks into the hotel at Palmo Square and sets his
sights on ISB Agent Dedra.

Speaker 2 (02:15:43):
M H.

Speaker 11 (02:15:44):
So, Yeah, a lot of this episode is like showing
how the rebels are actually like growing an army before
they've really put together the formal rebel alliance, like they're
they're they're getting so much closer to that. But at
this point it's it's like a whole bunch of little
like militias that are operating over the same base and
are starting to set up like rules and guidelines, and

(02:16:05):
like Cassie and butts up against some of those rules
a little bit here.

Speaker 2 (02:16:08):
Because he can't go and come as he pleases anymore, right,
Like it gets him in trouble with General Draven.

Speaker 11 (02:16:13):
Yeah, it's not just rebel cells that are operating independently.
Now they are trying out working together and that has
some growing pains.

Speaker 2 (02:16:20):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (02:16:21):
Well, and it's not just working together too, like, it's
it's the command structure totally. Structure is becoming increasingly centralized
in a way that it hasn't been. Well, it's the
previous to this has been like the centralizing thing has
been like Luthen kind of being an asshole to everyone
but like moving stuff between them.

Speaker 2 (02:16:36):
And now it's like.

Speaker 11 (02:16:37):
Or Sagarera, right where where he operates as like a
cult of personality type thing with his own militia.

Speaker 7 (02:16:41):
Yeah yeah, right, well, but i mean like between all
of the different networks. Yeah, and now it's like, no,
we have this place where we're developing a chain of
command and we're developing these sort of like totally we're
going to become increasingly rigid like hierarchies in this In
this whole thing.

Speaker 11 (02:16:56):
Luthen's becoming a somewhat controversial figure and is kind of
getting pushed out of the actual organized rebellion because he's
a little bit difficult to work with.

Speaker 2 (02:17:07):
Yeah, because he's an asshole. Like that's like, yeah, and well,
he's he's doing what he has to do. I mean,
I'm Luthen's last defender. If he's only got one fan,
it's me. And Luthen is doing is handling this exactly
how he has to. There's no room to be nice
and there's no room for anybody's feelings in this. But that,

(02:17:31):
you know, what we do see is people choosing now,
I want to be involved in this kind of bigger
and more structured thing where the way I am treated
is less dependent upon the whims of this guy at
the spoke, where I don't get to know anything, where
there is a command structure, where there is there is
a degree to which it's more like predictable how things

(02:17:51):
will be day to day. Right, A lot of people
do prefer that. Yeah, And also this at this stage
of the rebellion. If you're going to take on a
military like this, you need a formalized force. You need
more of a command structure, You need a chain of command,
and people need to know who is calling shots in
what situations because you you simply can't function effectively in

(02:18:14):
a large scale in combat without it.

Speaker 11 (02:18:16):
Yeah, well, well we'll talk more about kind of Luthen's
situation in episode nine, you know, the Luthen of it all, Yeah,
because that kind of gets more into like what his
current place is in the rebellion. But like really like
the role that he occupied is is frankly no longer needed,
like like and he's even acknowledging this, Like they're they're
they're going beyond the sort of like you know, like
small scale like intel network, arms deals, like all this

(02:18:40):
type of like like covert you know, the El Dawni raid.
They're growing beyond what Luthen really specialized in. And and
now they're doing a full on military and and Luthen's
always been operating kind of like a DIY like spy agency,
and and now they're they're they're they're doing a whole
military and and that kind of butts up against how
Luthen like to operate and like what he's like frankly

(02:19:03):
just capable of doing. Like he he understands the importance
of YABN, but he's also okay with not being there
in person.

Speaker 2 (02:19:10):
Well I don't think he thinks he fits there, right, Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah,
Like his whole thing is such a an idiosyncratic organization
that's that's just based around him and Claya, you know,
this this young woman that he works with. Like there's
no place for him in a military command structure. That's
not his thing.

Speaker 11 (02:19:29):
The other thing this episode really focuses on is like
you know, news propaganda and like the idea of like
like terrorism outside agitators and using those things as justifications
for state crackdowns. The senator from Gorman talks with mon
Mathma about about how he believes that like the Empire
is lying about what's happening on Gorman and these bombings

(02:19:51):
must be like a false flag attack. So you got
to see a whole bunch of different people's perspectives and
like validity of the actions that are happening on Gorman.
Like there's there's questions over like who's doing this. Is
the state just making these things up so that they
have a justification to crack down on us.

Speaker 7 (02:20:04):
Are these things.

Speaker 11 (02:20:05):
Genuine or are they Are they being done by by
people on Gorman who are like aligned with the resistance
but maybe are getting like outside help. You have all
those sorts of questions, and then the news media is
like manufacturing consent for an imperial crackdown, like what was
discussed in like the very first episode.

Speaker 7 (02:20:23):
It's very it's very seventies Italy, like because there's these
bombings happening, because there's all this weird shit, and because
nobody knows exactly who's doing what, everyone is like kind
of become conspiracy brained and like half the conspiracies are true,
but not only the ones people think are the ones
that are true. And it's it's just like the information
space has become so messy when you're dealing with such

(02:20:44):
a combination of like of like of these attacks and
of these like different kinds of above and below ground
organizations where nobody knows exactly, no one's exactly talking to
each other, and yeah, it just gets so messy so quickly.

Speaker 11 (02:20:55):
Even the Gorman front itself is like debating this, like
they had this whole meeting where they discussed like tactics,
like the role of the role of violence, and like
as these big arguments erupt, they start to reflect on
how the empire is actually set them up for infighting,
and the most time they spend doing this, the less
time they're actually doing anything helpful on Gorman or like

(02:21:16):
doing anything that actually can secure their own like liberation
or their own like you know, combat against the suppressive force.

Speaker 2 (02:21:23):
There's a good part in that scene where they're debating
it where the guy who gets who kind of stumbles
upon them doing the robbery. Yeah in the last like yeah, yeah, yeah.
It has a speech where he's basically like, look, man,
everyone's like whatever they're doing, whatever their attitude about the
right way to resist, they're all Gormans to me, and
so they're all on my side. Yeah, right, And I

(02:21:45):
like the way that he that he expressed that because
it very much as we're going to talk about next episode.
It comports with who that guy is as a as
a resistor. Right.

Speaker 11 (02:21:55):
There's like national identity is a big concept in these episodes,
but not in like a fascistic nationalist sense.

Speaker 2 (02:22:03):
No, is in we're all in this, We're all going
to hang together, is what I think he's saying.

Speaker 7 (02:22:08):
But like like national solidarity. Yeah yeah, it's like eighteen
twenties kind of like or even like Ireland, right, like
yeah yeah, And like you know, I can give a
speech here about where this is going in about how
shin Fame's like Turny gets imbigers and trans people, but
it's also like that's just like that what's happening right now.
This is like eighteen twenty, not like nineteen twenty.

Speaker 11 (02:22:26):
The last thing I want to talk about in this
arc before we go on break is this Force healer
that Cassiean reluctantly visits in the Yavin for mess Hall.

Speaker 2 (02:22:37):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (02:22:38):
This was a super interesting scene to me, and this
is the first.

Speaker 2 (02:22:41):
Time we have seen any mention of the Force really. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:22:45):
This is like the big like spiritual moment in this series,
and or has kind of veered away from like the
mystical side of Star Wars in favor of the more
like materialist politics the Star Wars that they concluded this here,
I thought was really interesting and really well done. And
the reason why I like it so much is that,
like throughout the Rebel Alliance, they always like agreet each

(02:23:09):
other and like say, goodbye by saying may the Force
be with you, which is a little bit odd because
the Rebel Alliance isn't like a Jedi revivalist cult. They're
not like a Force cult in the way that so
many other groups and you know, Star Wars TM are,
And the fact that you have people who engage with
the Force in it's more like regular manner, more similar

(02:23:30):
to like kind of like hippie woo spiritualist stuff that
that props up in like radical spaces I find really interesting.
And obviously in Star Wars that has more of like
a legitimate backing because we all recognize the forces real.
In Star Wars, the Force.

Speaker 2 (02:23:44):
Is fake, it's a psio.

Speaker 7 (02:23:45):
It's just the alien god thing in the black Holes.

Speaker 2 (02:23:50):
For in part what I love that and er is
how big it makes the universe seem because Cassi Cassian
isn't like he doesn't have like the you know, the
There's that line in the in a New Hope where
basically Han's like, I don't know, like Han's clearly heard
of the Jedi, but he's like, I don't need like
I don't give a shit about this.

Speaker 7 (02:24:09):
I don't need hokey religions or special efforts.

Speaker 2 (02:24:12):
It's like somebody talking about yeah, like like Wicca, right,
Like if you're just like a dude who's a fucking
drug dealer, You're like, I don't need to hear about that, man,
I got I got fucking heroin to move, Like, yeah,
it's very it's very much like it's it's very much
like faith Healer coded.

Speaker 7 (02:24:27):
It's like, oh god, no, I'm not gonna see the
faith healer come on, Like.

Speaker 11 (02:24:32):
No, yeah, And and he talks about how him and
his like his mom had like a bad experience with
a horse a force healer like ten years ago, and
you're like, this is this is a whole like scam
operation as well.

Speaker 7 (02:24:42):
Yeah, like fake force healers.

Speaker 2 (02:24:44):
And beyond that, the thing that's unset is what we
know about Cassie and is he was raised on the
planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy.
His childhood was as a hunter gatherer in the deep jungle,
and he was, presumably as all people's in that situation
always have, raised with a set of beliefs about the
universe and spirituality that were completely shattered when his entire

(02:25:05):
planet was annihilated by the Empire. Right was it by
the Republic. Well it was, it was in that transition, the.

Speaker 7 (02:25:11):
Fuzzy period between the Republic and the Empire.

Speaker 2 (02:25:14):
Yet yes, but of course he doesn't believe in anything, right,
Like he had some sort of set of beliefs and
the entire cosmology of his planet was annihilated, Like why
would he believe in anything?

Speaker 11 (02:25:27):
I just like what this does for like the Alliance itself,
and it shows that the Force is like a regular
part of these people's lives. And like specifically the way
the Force Healer talks is more about like the Force
as this as this like operator of.

Speaker 7 (02:25:39):
Like fate and destiny.

Speaker 11 (02:25:41):
And it can sense that Cassian Andor is the main
character in Rogue Wan a Star Wars story, and is
important for the story of Star Wars, and she can
feel that this is important, and so condicts and and
Or is also freaked out by that like feeling. And
I do like that version of the Force a lot.
I think that's a much more interesting way to do it.
And just like you know, force cults in like a

(02:26:03):
forever religious war with each other for thousands of years.

Speaker 7 (02:26:05):
Yeah, if you if, if you pay us an unbelievably
large amount of money, Garrison and I will have our
six hour argument we have every time about the Force
Star Wars.

Speaker 4 (02:26:13):
Well, I do also.

Speaker 7 (02:26:15):
Like that it's not one hundred percent clear that this
person is even force sensitive.

Speaker 11 (02:26:20):
She can like feel through the force, but like everyone
can with some degree of training.

Speaker 2 (02:26:24):
Yeah, but but it's well, but it's it's it's also
like not.

Speaker 7 (02:26:27):
Clear that it's like like she's just a girl.

Speaker 2 (02:26:30):
She's yeah, yeah, but it's like it's it's not a
his back seems to feel better.

Speaker 7 (02:26:34):
Yeah, no, yeah, totally yeah. But but but but also
like that's the thing, like it's it's not it's not
like a thing like Okay, this is like a Jedi, right,
they're using the Force, and you could tell using the Force.
This is a lot more kind of like nebulous, and
it's not one hundred percent clear if it's happening or
if it's everyone is like I think just thinks that
it's happening or like what's you know, it's it's very no.

Speaker 11 (02:26:56):
Yeah, that's why I like it, Like, yeah, it's not
a Jedi, it's just it's just someone and everyone in
this universe can have a connection with the Force, because
that's how this universe works, and some people don't want
to or think it's fake, and other people get really
into it. So people get way too into it, and
then they do genocides in the name of the of
their religious order. But for a lot of people like this,
who aren't like a Jedi or aren't like a Sith

(02:27:18):
or you know, a whatever, a guardian of the wills, God,
it's just a thing you can like connect with and
you can like feel your way through like fate and destiny.

Speaker 2 (02:27:27):
Well, and I really like that. They must have there
must have been a discussion, should we have her say
she used to be like a Paddawan, right who somehow
escaped Order sixty six.

Speaker 7 (02:27:37):
That must have been God, she's not.

Speaker 2 (02:27:39):
Thank God, they just didn't.

Speaker 12 (02:27:40):
We don't know what she don't care, need to does
matter because no one in the situation would give a shit. Yeah,
Cassian's not gonna be like, so, yeah, tell me about
like your fucking bad He doesn't give He doesn't give
a fuck.

Speaker 2 (02:27:51):
There's so much else going on in his head at
that moment.

Speaker 7 (02:27:53):
So much better that she's just a random person and
we never know.

Speaker 2 (02:27:56):
We never know.

Speaker 11 (02:27:58):
All right, Let's go and break and come back to
talk about the Gorman massacre. Yay, okay, we are back
and or season two episode eight, Who are you?

Speaker 2 (02:28:18):
Yeah? Oh I just I will talk a lot about
the name of this episode. Oh yeah, baby, because I
love it, because it's it's just some of the best
writing that this show or any show has ever had.
Yeah yeah, please go ahead and give us the over there.

Speaker 7 (02:28:33):
Let's do a quick run down.

Speaker 2 (02:28:34):
Yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:28:36):
As mining equipment lands across Gorman, troops barricade the Imperial
headquarters in Palmo Square as they prepare for a mass protest.
The Gorman Front prepares to retake the town square, distributing
weapons and rallying just regular Gorman citizens to march on
the town center. The old leader of the Front realizes

(02:28:57):
too late that this protest is probably an Imperial trap
and is powerless to stop this unfolding spectacle. He encounters
a Cyril Kern on his way to the Imperial HQ
and confronts Cyril about misleading the Gorman resistance and why
the Empire is mining on Gorman.

Speaker 2 (02:29:14):
Oh, and this scene is the guy who plays Ryot.
There's so many great monologues in this The dude who
plays Rylands, who is the old rich guy who's kind
of the organizing center of the Gorman Front.

Speaker 7 (02:29:25):
The original one.

Speaker 2 (02:29:26):
Yeah, has a beautiful speech here where he's just how
can you say these things?

Speaker 7 (02:29:31):
What kind of being are you?

Speaker 2 (02:29:33):
What kind of being are you? Yeah, it's excellent, it's perfect,
it's devastating. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:29:42):
Cyril breaks free and makes his way through the chanting
crowd that's filled in a square.

Speaker 2 (02:29:47):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:29:47):
After arriving at the barricaded Imperial Tower, Cyril sneaks into
Dedra's office to demand to know what the Empire wants
on Gorman. He chokes Dedra as she confesses that this
has all been for the Emperor's new energy program, and
she promises that they will soon return to Corussant as heroes.

Speaker 2 (02:30:06):
We'll get everything we want. The Empire will reward us
for our loyalty. This is this is it. This is
the last fucked up thing we have to do, and
then we can live happily ever after. Yeah, didn't you
want this promotion?

Speaker 7 (02:30:18):
Yeah? Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:30:18):
She says that this might be the previous episode or
this one, but like when Zero like kind of like
protests that just like, yeah, but you weren't complaining when
you got promoted into this into this job. But Zero
wishes Dedra good luck and he leaves to join the
crowd outside Cassie and is stationed on the outskirts of
the crowd, trying to line up a shot to take

(02:30:39):
out Dedra. But stormtroopers soon kettle the crowd and Imperial
riot cops are sent into the square to jumpstart a
flash point. Protesters throw rocks and bottles, but it's an
Imperial sniper who is ordered to shoot their own riot
cops that starts the Gorman massacre.

Speaker 2 (02:30:57):
And they make a beautiful point. The kettling is done
by stormtroopers who are the elite, right, These are their
very best infantry, the riot cops. From the moment they're introduced,
because we see these guys land with their kit bags,
their sergeant clearly has a lot more experience and is like,
these guys don't know what the fuck they're doing. We
cannot put them in any kind of dangerous they have

(02:31:19):
and that's the point. That's why they're there. These men
were hand picked to be the worst of the Empire.
Here's they're expendable, right, and because you can count on
them to panic and that's what's needed.

Speaker 11 (02:31:29):
They're cannon fodders. Yeah, they're sacrificial lambs. Yeah, now, Sir
Cyril watches the chaos unfold as the Gorman Front tries
to defend against the Imperial Slaughter and Chax security droids
are sent into the town square, but when Cyril sees Cassian,
he suddenly lunges at him and the two get into
a brutal brawl.

Speaker 7 (02:31:51):
Cyril gets the.

Speaker 11 (02:31:51):
Upper hand, but is shocked when Cassian does not remember
who he is. While frozen, pointing his blaster at Cassian,
Cyril gets shot dead by the old leader of the
Gorman Front.

Speaker 2 (02:32:05):
There's Rylan's It's an incredible moment. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:32:10):
While trying to exfiltrate Cassian meets up with Willem, who
decides to stay and help the resistance. In the aftermath
of the massacre, the Gorman Front broadcasts the final message
about the Imperial siege, claiming there are thousands dead in
the streets. Cyril's mother is in tears watching news reports
coming out of Gorman that frame the Imperial troopers killed
as fallen heroes.

Speaker 2 (02:32:31):
Yeah, oh boy, what.

Speaker 11 (02:32:32):
An episode, maybe the best episode in the series. Just phenomenal.

Speaker 2 (02:32:38):
It's phenomenal. I'll give you that. I don't know whish
I'd pick us the best, but it's tough. It's tough.

Speaker 7 (02:32:43):
It's the prison break one still, because a break one's
very good.

Speaker 2 (02:32:46):
I'm gonna go on a little rant about the name
of this episode, who Are You, because that moment between
Cassian and Cyril, is one that Tony Gilroy ha said
interviews he had to fight for everyone was like just
crazy and Diego Luna said it was one of the
hardest lines for me to deliver because Luna likes the
show and is a fan of the character Cyril and

(02:33:07):
his acting, and he knows every and it has the
degree of sympathy that you almost have to have for
Cyril at this point totally, and so it was such
a difficult challenge for him to be like to really
sell who wait, who the fuck are you?

Speaker 7 (02:33:19):
Who shatters cyril self perception?

Speaker 2 (02:33:21):
Well, and it's not even I'll even push against a
little bit that because I don't think it's entirely that.
I think what I like about Cyril's journey is that,
and what I like about this episode is that who
Are You is not just about that line. It is
about every character that we see in this We are
learning who they all are, and they are learning who
they all are. Rylands in the beginning, right, this guy

(02:33:44):
who had been so gung ho about the Gorman resistance,
who had been when he realizes what's happening, that they're
all going to be massacred, his family and his culture
are going to be wiped out as a result of
this act of resistance that he's helped organize. He tries
to stop it. He says, we have to pull back.
We and he learns he's not a rebel, right, he's
a reel And there's always been hints of that. He's

(02:34:05):
not a rebel. He's always you know, the Emperor can't
know about this, right, We've seen hints of this from
Mark Rylance. He learns that about himself. And then a
little later in the episode when it's become because we
watch his kids get massacred. He doesn't see them, but
he knows they're dead. He hears the gunfire. He understands
no one's making it out of there. He's not a
dumb man. And when he comes in and shoots Cyril

(02:34:27):
in the head, he learns again who he is. And
now he wasn't before, but now he is because they've
taken everything from him, right, Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:34:35):
The quote from earlier when he's like arguing with people
in the streets, He's like, the only path forward is
silent resistance. Yeah, And by the end of the episode
he is a little beyond that.

Speaker 2 (02:34:47):
And I love for him that he gets a chance
to learn who he is and be wrong and then
learn again and be right right, which is not a
chance Cyril is going to get. Cyril does and all
Cyril is. We see, we see a lot of characters
in this who could only have been themselves in a
fascist state. Dedra's one of them, right, Dedra could not

(02:35:09):
have been the person she is outside of the Empire.
I think part of Goaz probably is too, could never
have been himself fully outside. Certainly, well, I think if you.

Speaker 7 (02:35:20):
Put Partigas into CIA, he is mostly the same guy.

Speaker 2 (02:35:24):
I think he must have been in the Republic CIA. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:35:28):
He feels very like Republic transitioned into the empire, like God.

Speaker 2 (02:35:33):
Yeah, And I think Krenick obviously is one of our best.
Crenic is only an empire is under fascism, Ye, Cyril
is not an ideological fascist. Cyril never really embraces fascism
as a belief system. He never understands the Empire that way,
he just understands the Empire's law and order, or he
gets if you look at it from Cyril's standpoint, he

(02:35:53):
gets brought into this not because he wants to cramp
down on clamp down on the evil rebels and he
loves Palpatine and wants to kill Freedom. It's because two
guys are murdered that he considers colleagues, and he thinks
it's wrong.

Speaker 6 (02:36:06):
Right.

Speaker 7 (02:36:06):
He has a sense of like justice.

Speaker 2 (02:36:08):
And he believes he's following that, and he believes that
his girlfriend is invested in that, and he truly believes.
He doesn't want to hurt the people of Gorman. He
wants to find the outside agitators who are driving them
to disaster, right, And the moment when he learns that
that's all a lie, he beats the shit out of
his girlfriend in a very violent I had an argument
with someone online about like, is this domestic violence? And

(02:36:30):
I'm like, in a literal sense, these people are in
a domestic partnership and he is doing violence to her.
In a moral sense, if you find out that your
significant other has been hiding a genocide from you, I
think it's okay. Like and you've been made complicit in it.

Speaker 11 (02:36:48):
It's such a fucked up, it's such a it's such
like every everyone is everyone's fucked and everyone's evil and
everyone's complicit. Yes, and they're all like calling their own
commitment to like the state and what they view as
justice and law and order into question. And like for Cyril,
like he's he has just committed to this idea like
justice and what he sees as law and order, and

(02:37:08):
the Empire is the physical manifestation of law and order,
so therefore the Empire must be good, right, and and
that's his view. And when he realizes maybe the Empire
actually doesn't really care about law and order, No, they
just like it, she gets so confused. Like he he
doesn't know how to orient himself in the world. He
doesn't know where a sense of morals can be derived from. No,

(02:37:30):
if the state is not the represent is not like
the lawful good representation of like justice.

Speaker 2 (02:37:35):
And we've seen from Cyril previously that he has physical courage, right,
he's not afraid of violence, he's not afraid of putting
himself in physical danger, right, Like he's not a Cassian
and or level comfortable with it, right because he just
doesn't have that kind of experience. But he's he's not
he's not physically a coward, but he's a moral coward
the whole series and that changes and again going back

(02:37:58):
to who are You? He understand he learns one thing
about himself, which is that he is not a genocide committer, right,
he is not someone who will consciously participate in the
annihilation of a race.

Speaker 6 (02:38:09):
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:38:10):
When he learns that those are the stakes he hits,
he chokes Dedra and he fucking runs. He doesn't know
anything else about himself at that point. And my interpretation
of his reaction to that line from Cassian isn't just
because I think what I love about the scene when
he chooses to attack him, It's not him making a
decision to go back to the Empire. He's not trying

(02:38:30):
to rest to fight Cassian because he wants to get
back and good. It's just the only thing that makes sense.
He's nothing ring to his child self. Yes, yes, it's
crazy because it's animal. The way that he goes after
him is like a rabbit dog charging, you know.

Speaker 11 (02:38:46):
Like this whole situation on Gorman calls into question how
he sees the Empire and therefore how he sees himself
as he realizes that he's just been a pawn in
the empire's larger game. And like, in a way, Gorman's
the first time that Cyril has been part of like
a real community, maybe since he was like a Corpo cop,
Like there's no like solidarity in community like on Coorissant,
there's not in the Bureau of Standards. Like Gorman's the

(02:39:07):
first time he's actually kind of been a part of
a community. And like this happens with like with like
FBI double agents infiltrating radical organizations. Sometimes it's it's yeah,
it's it's very odd. So like when he decides to
join the crowd, it's just like he's aligning with them.
But then when he sees Cassie and all of this
psychological like progress, and the question that he's done just
gets immediately rolled back because then he sees the guy

(02:39:28):
who he thinks like kind of like ruined his life,
who like who who altered the trajectory of what Zero's
life was supposed to be, And therefore he just he yeah,
he turns into an animal. He undoes all of all
of this psychological progress and attacks the guy that he
views ruined his life, and then in his final moments
is in part like confronted with the idea that like

(02:39:50):
the guy that he's been obsessing over for years doesn't
even remember who he is, and like Cassian has been
living rent free in his head this whole time, and
and like he didn't need to, like Yarol could have
moved on. Seril didn't need to do this, And he's
been obsessing over someone who doesn't even remember him.

Speaker 7 (02:40:06):
So I think the other thing that's really important about
Cyril's character is like if if you remember him in
like the very beginning of season one, right, he has
like like like what he like goes home, like he
has like a storm he has like storm tuber like
figure out yea clone trooper like action figure. Yes, And
and he has and you know, and he's he's like
tailoring his own uniform because he has this conception of

(02:40:26):
himself as this like you know, as like this like
this brave cop, as this like sort of like like
this like that this is very specific kind of like
fascist bureaucrat with a gun like platonic figure.

Speaker 2 (02:40:36):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (02:40:37):
And the thing is Denser Miro is that actual person.
And this is and this is a tension that that
they that it's kind of worked out, or of course
season one if like Dendri Muro is a character who
in a conventional show is a hero right like she
is she is she is like the cop that's willing
to work outside of the restrictions of the thing in
order to get the job done. Yeah, and then and
you get to see what that actually is in real life,

(02:40:59):
which is she's just fucking torturing people, and you know,
and she's torturing people and she's gone and she and
when she gets offered a chance to do the genocide
in order to investment, she gets that.

Speaker 2 (02:41:08):
And I think part of what's.

Speaker 7 (02:41:09):
Going on with Cerial is like Cyril's whole thing is
that he has been trying to be this cop and
then he has this moment where he's like, oh shit,
none of that's like real. The actual thing that it
means to be this cop isn't just this isn't this
like I dress up in my in my client was closed.
And he gets this season one too where he like

(02:41:30):
actually goes into the field and it's just like everyone's
fucking dying around him and he's shell shocked and things
are exploding, and it's like he's getting that here again
where it's like his' like thing where he's been cultivating
this like intelligence.

Speaker 2 (02:41:41):
Person and he sees it and it just like it
just sort of it rips away.

Speaker 7 (02:41:47):
The facade that's like that is the facade of how
like on a kind of macro level, like how we
how film and television and how American media thinks about
like spies and thinks about cops. Sure, and you see
that the actual brutal reality of it, which is like
through through the eyes of this person who who like
through through this sort of like media stuff, has always

(02:42:10):
wanted to become this person and is like, oh, you're
just doing a genocide. The one part of being a
cop that I can do is like choking is like
choking my partner.

Speaker 2 (02:42:18):
M So my interpretation of kind of his ending moments
is that Number one, I don't really feel it is
necessarily that he undoes all the progress. I think that
there's this this animal moment when he sees Cassian that
just overrides that because nothing else about his life has
makes sense anymore. He's completely lost any sense of sanity. Sure,

(02:42:41):
and Cassian makes sense. Fighting him makes sense, and so
he does it, and we do see he has a
chance to shoot him, and he hesitates and he lowers
the gun just a bit and then he's immediately shot
and in that moment. Number One, one of the themes
of this is that, like everyone has their own rebellion,
there's an argument you can make that him not doing

(02:43:01):
that was his last little act of that. There's an
argument that like maybe he would have, you know, tried
to engage you in conversation or like you know, monologued
or whateverbody didn't get the chance. We just don't know.
We'll never know. And he's kind of contrasted with Rylands
and that Rylans does get the chance to see who
he is and have it be not enough and then

(02:43:22):
become enough. Cyril gets the chance to see who he
is and he does do one. He gets one win,
and it is a win to realize there's a genocide
going on and I refuse to be a part of it.

Speaker 6 (02:43:32):
Right.

Speaker 2 (02:43:33):
That's not nothing that he makes that choice. We don't
know where he would have gone from here. There's a
version of Cyril that could have been a part of
the rebel, that could have if he had just left
Cassie and helped some Gorman's escape on a ship, used
his imperial credentials gotten them out of there. It becomes
something else We'll never know because he doesn't get the chance.

(02:43:53):
And I see in that last moment, not just him
being like, you don't know who I am? Oh, that
shatters me, but him being asked who are you and
realizing I have no answer to that question? Yeah? Yeah,
And he just doesn't get the chance ever to do that.

Speaker 11 (02:44:08):
It is a very like Greek tragedy, ugh like moment tyr. Yeah, phenomenal,
phenomenal screenwriting.

Speaker 2 (02:44:15):
I will larw you. It's going to get paid off
a lot in the next three episodes. But there's this
idea that has run through the series that even if
you are someone working within this machinery of death, within
this evil empire, you're not unredeemable or unsavable. But you
don't have unlimited time. Right, Yeah, you can be something else.

(02:44:35):
You have that chance, but you don't have infinite days
to make that choice.

Speaker 11 (02:44:42):
This is like the entire message of Star Wars. This
is like, this is this is like Luke in Vader
in the Throne Room. This is like what this whole
series is about.

Speaker 7 (02:44:51):
Like is this moment.

Speaker 11 (02:44:52):
Yeah, yep, I do have a few other things I
want to talk about in terms of like the massacre.
I really like that we see a return of like
imperial military police, not just stormtroopers. I think putting a
face on the riot cops is really good for the
audience because stormtroopers are backpacks and t shirts and little
fun toys and riot cops or riot cops. I'd really

(02:45:15):
like that Willman is sleeping with a French militant.

Speaker 7 (02:45:18):
Many such cases.

Speaker 2 (02:45:20):
Among us.

Speaker 11 (02:45:23):
Hartagras in a like a phone call with Dedras talking
about how like yeah, like you know, propaganda, news media
has been useful and like spreading like rumors and like
you know, like co intel pro that's for stuff. It's
been useful. But now the only the quote is like
now the only story is Gorman aggression. Like this is
all that we can focus on. There's there's no no
more of this like outside agitators thing, no more of

(02:45:45):
this like long term slow planning. We have to we
just have to focus on how like savage these Gormans are.
And meanwhile, like Fox like space, Fox News is outside
stoking divisions on Gorman, talking about how there's rumors of
a quote unquote general strike. How How how the empire
is negotiating for like a peaceful demonstration, even though even

(02:46:06):
though even though the leaders are obviously you know, making
making people agitated in this in this growing insurrection, The
Chance got me. I have heard way too many the
whole world is watching Chance.

Speaker 7 (02:46:17):
So as soon as they.

Speaker 4 (02:46:17):
Started to go the galaxy, I started like, I started
like get like sweat egg I started having no No that.

Speaker 2 (02:46:25):
That gave me a little breakdown too. It's my least favorite. No,
it's happening again.

Speaker 4 (02:46:33):
The galaxy isn't watching.

Speaker 2 (02:46:34):
No, it's not it's not. Oh I hate that chant.
I hate that fucking Chance. It's very real. It's very real,
right like this these guys right, yes, we get.

Speaker 11 (02:46:48):
We get like a real proper riot set up, right,
like the last riot in and Or was on fer
Ex Like that was like a funeral riot.

Speaker 2 (02:46:55):
Right, It's almost like some of the writers have seen kettles.

Speaker 7 (02:46:59):
It's great, it's crazy.

Speaker 11 (02:47:01):
And like this time like this is not like a
morning ritual like like it was unfair, like this is
this is this is a protest riot. There's there's signs,
there's banners, there's fireworks, there's smoke, there's space molotovs, there's
state affiliated news crews. There's tie fighters flying overhead like
police copters and police drums.

Speaker 7 (02:47:19):
It's excellent.

Speaker 2 (02:47:20):
I got a little flashback of being buzzed by a
police helicopter. It's standing rocks so close that it knocked
my car off the road. That's what happened with the
tie fighter. So good.

Speaker 6 (02:47:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (02:47:30):
Yeah. And it's like like like right down to like
just just like the micro dynamics of like how the
crowd is interacting with the riot shields. It's like, oh shit.

Speaker 11 (02:47:41):
And I got the same not in my stomach when
I can tell that it's about to go down. I
get this the same not watching this like they really
nailed It's.

Speaker 2 (02:47:50):
Great too, is it? With in the just in the
face acting, but with Cassie and and with Wilman, you
can see that they know they've been in this. They
know Willman a spatlieh Okay, okay, okay, I know what's happening.

Speaker 7 (02:48:03):
I also really like that, okay, so okay. So the
challenge that Gilroy has here is we have to introduce
the concept of kettling to the average Star Wars watcher,
and with the average Star Wars watcher. You can't be like, Okay,
the police are going to form a wall. You have
to physically make walls come in around the thing.

Speaker 2 (02:48:22):
Like some people have said that the Gorman mascer is
very clearly inspired by what's happened in Palestine. These episodes
I'm sure were informed by other massacres in Palestine, but
these were written prior to the most current outbreak of
really intense genocidal violence.

Speaker 7 (02:48:40):
In like twenty two.

Speaker 2 (02:48:42):
Probably again there were other similar massacres that occurred in Palestine.
But also like this is very clearly patterned off of
Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. This is very clearly patterned
off of I would argue my suspicion the Ombuitz massacre
in India by the British government as well. Like I
think that there are pieces of all of that in here.

Speaker 7 (02:49:02):
There's also elements that I heard friend of the show
Emmy Who's Great, talking about, like the Tlata Laco massacre,
which is like the massacre in nineteen sixty eight in
a square in the middle of Mexico City, which is
massacre where there's like these giant students sixty eight student
protests are happening and they just like put snipers on
the rears and shoot everyone.

Speaker 2 (02:49:20):
Mm hm.

Speaker 7 (02:49:21):
And I think so when I saw this, like I
thought it was going to be a lot more of
just like a straight massacre. Everyone dies and it kind
of turns into a shootout, and I wasn't sure how
that was going to play. Also, I think it is
also worth remembering that, like also a lot of the
sort of famous historical massacres aren't like some people do

(02:49:43):
shoot back. Yes, because the thing at Tieneman, like some
of the some of some of the students like take
workers from soldiers that they fought and like shoot, Well, yeah,
this is more of the workers. And by the time
they get into the square with the students, like those
people don't have gone. Some of the workers like try
to fight back and just get massacred. But it seems
to have been really effective. Yeah, And just like conveying that, like, yeah,

(02:50:03):
this shit happens constantly.

Speaker 2 (02:50:05):
It happened in my dawn too. Write where you have
you know, both you have Berkut snipers shooting and killing
protesters and you have protesters firing back from behind the barricades. Yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:50:17):
I really liked the singing the gorba national anthem as
a way to like, yeah, stop the chanting, which is
like calling towards you know, like we're safe because the
galaxy's watching us. And like the guy who starts to
the song realizes, like that maybe that's not true, and
instead the song like unites people in like national solidarity
to prepare them for what's about to happen, instead of

(02:50:39):
like gesturing outwards at like this at like you know
those those off planet watching this, and that ensures our safety,
Like no, our safety is from like each other. And
the fact that yeah, so many of them do fire
back and like it is it. They do not like
lose their agency, and it doesn't like make this less
of a massacre.

Speaker 2 (02:50:54):
Yeah, there's another example.

Speaker 7 (02:50:55):
This is like the Red Summer, which is like a
whole bunch of like anti anti black race riots and
you and it's it's not what he thinks. It's like, yeah,
it's remembered as like a bunch of white supremacists just
murdered a bunch of black people.

Speaker 2 (02:51:07):
And that's true.

Speaker 7 (02:51:07):
But also people fought back, like people had guns, people
fought back, people resisted them, and you know a lot
of people fucking died. And also people in these situations
fight back and it's good. The last thing I want
to discuss in this last section is the based hotel
porter who throws that.

Speaker 2 (02:51:25):
Bob my god. Oh yeah, and again, yeah, we are
learning he already knows clearly he knows who he is.
He never has any question about that. But we don't
know who he is. Cassian doesn't fully until he's like, yeah,
I wiped you from the system, bro, get out of here, right.

Speaker 7 (02:51:40):
So that's what we're talking about, yeah, is this is
this base hotel porter.

Speaker 11 (02:51:43):
And also that the way the way Cassian works as
a spy is different from the way that other like
Luther and operatives do. Like Cassian gets to know this
guy in the previous arc of episodes when he's when
he's like going to like survey the Gorman Front like
a year ago, and he gets into a conversation with
hotel porter who was at like the Tarkan massacre and
was like was there when there was like five hunch

(02:52:04):
people died and like and and his dad died protecting
him like like andor like converses with him in his
in his hotel room to like learn about like the
local people and to like learn about the actual history
from like a regular guy who experienced it. And this
isn't something that like vell and sint to really do.
This isn't something that that Luthen really does like like
and Or has a connection or like and Or values

(02:52:26):
making connections with just like the regular people and wherever
he's operating, and this this always like trans outs to
help and Or in the long run, even if he
doesn't really know it in like the immediate because when
Andor comes back a year later under a different name
with a different job, the hotel porter recognizes him and
is like, I got you, buddy.

Speaker 7 (02:52:47):
I I.

Speaker 11 (02:52:49):
Know that you're up to something and I will protect you,
like where we are in this together, Like I recognize you,
and I like value you, and that is what like
helps helps and Or like in this episode.

Speaker 7 (02:53:02):
And then also the grenades that he throws is you
know cool, uh.

Speaker 2 (02:53:07):
And there's there's a beautiful and Or's last line to
this kid is I hope things work out for you.
And the last thing we see that kid do is
detonate a bomb to kill himself and a bunch of
other people.

Speaker 7 (02:53:20):
Rebellions are built on hope.

Speaker 2 (02:53:22):
Yeah, yeah, And he tells him rebellions are built on hope,
which is where we get that line from Rogue one.

Speaker 11 (02:53:27):
I like that Sam, the guy with two m's who
killed Sinta last Dark is still in the fight and
is killing imperials. He is, yes, he is killing them
in the name of Sinta. He is, he is showing up.

Speaker 2 (02:53:37):
He is real and he he he again. He learns
who he is in this episode, right, like he's not
just a fuck up. He rams a truck into that
K two unit and save save Cassio, save, saves the
whole day. And yes, he learns Rellion too. Yeah, he
learns who.

Speaker 11 (02:53:53):
I feel like that everything good that happens to Cassiod
all the people who do it are like in part
like a responsible for the destruction out of the Death Star,
which shows how like the butterfly effect works.

Speaker 7 (02:54:04):
In a really fun way.

Speaker 11 (02:54:05):
Yeah, and like like a good luth and operative casting
and takes K two to get reprogrammed. But like this,
this episode like ends on this on this Gorman cry
for help, this like final broadcast done by Wilman's French
GF and I I was legitimately tearing up at this.
Uh it got to me and or starts tearing up,

(02:54:25):
but like it's it, It really got to me. And
then like we zoom out of Gorman and you can
see like how unnatural the imperial like tower is above
like the regular Palomo skyline with lit's like you know,
historical architecture that you have this like just just like
hideous like imperial it like citadel, like casting a dark

(02:54:45):
shadow over the town. And then we we cut to
Cyril's mom crying watching Fox News where they're talking about
how outside rebel assistance helped the Gorman front and they question,
what's the price will pay for our own safety? And
that's how the episode ends.

Speaker 7 (02:55:02):
What aisode?

Speaker 2 (02:55:03):
What aisode?

Speaker 11 (02:55:05):
All right, we'll go on a break and then come
back to briefly discuss this last episode, which is also
quite good.

Speaker 7 (02:55:20):
Okay, we're back. Episode nine.

Speaker 11 (02:55:23):
Welcome to the Rebellion Clone wars heads are feasting so
much Senate very fun. So on Corussant, fake news spreads
about what has happened on Gorman and the Gorman senator
is arrested with no warrant and no charges. Mad Mathma
plans to make a final speech in the Senate and
then leave Coroissant with bail. Organa to lead the rebel

(02:55:44):
alliance on Yavin, but Senator Organa doesn't want to leave yet.
He wants to stay and buy time for Yavin to
get fully up and running, but he advises Mon to
go through with the speech and offers an extraction team
to help her get off Corussant. While writing her speech,
Man Mathma is the Senate aid Erskine finds an ISD
listening device in her office. She goes outside to practice

(02:56:07):
the speech while Erskine continues to search for more bugs.
Waiting outside for Man is Luthan, who tells her that
Erskine's been secretly working for him for two years and
that Bail's extraction team is somehow corrupted. Man grows upset
at Luthan's deceptions and secrets and is unsure of who

(02:56:28):
to trust, but Luthan says that he is sending a
highly trusted operative as an alternative extraction plan. Cassian, still
undercover as a conflict journalist, agrees to escort Manmathma as
his last job for the rebellion. Other senators mourned the
Imperial martyrs slain by the Savage Gormans before Bail. Organa

(02:56:49):
invokes a Senate article to hand the Florida Monmothma, where
she gives her speech calling what's happened on Gorman a
genocide and labels Emperor Palpatine a monster that, empowered by
the Senate, has hijacked the truth and reality. The ICB
orders to shut down the Senate feed and detain Senator Mathma,
but as Mon exits the Senate chamber, Cassian is waiting

(02:57:12):
outside as Lucan suspected one of Bail's extraction team members
is an ISB double agent, and kills another one of
Baile's operatives once they're found out. The undercover ICB agent
tries to arrest Mon but is killed by Erskine and Cassian.
Man helps navigate through the Senate building as it's put
into lockdown, eventually reaching her vehicle outside, where Cassian kills

(02:57:32):
her driver, Chlorus, who's also an ISOB plant.

Speaker 2 (02:57:36):
Well was maybe we'll talk about that, yeah.

Speaker 11 (02:57:39):
Cassian takes Wilman to Yavin for medical attention while Gold
Squadron finishes Man's escort to the rebel base back on Base,
Bix breaks up with Cassian via snapchat message and leaves
Yavin to fight for the rebellion elsewhere and to keep
Cassian on Yavin, and later that day rebel and engineers

(02:58:00):
reprogram these salvaged k extroid. Okay, this episode has a
lot of a lot of politics, A lot of politicking, Yeah,
a lot a lot of capital Senate stuff.

Speaker 2 (02:58:11):
I want to read a little bit from monmothmaus speech here. Sure,
what I think is kind of the nut of it here,
I believe we are in a crisis. The distance between
what is said and what is known to be true
has become an abyss. Of all the things at risk,
the loss of an objective reality is perhaps the most dangerous.
The death of truth is the ultimate victory of evil.
When truth leaves us, when we let it slip away,

(02:58:33):
when it is ripped from our hands, we become vulnerable
to the appetite of whatever monster screams the loudest.

Speaker 11 (02:58:40):
Uh boy, it's a little orange man bad. But hey,
the Orange Man is bad.

Speaker 2 (02:58:47):
It's not just orange. It's making a broader, more historical
point that totally yes. The reason all of this works.
By destroying any kind of shared concept of reality, you
can get people to If you can get people to
believe absurdities, you can get them to commit atrocities.

Speaker 7 (02:59:02):
Right, I mean, this is this is what like the
Nazis understood as well.

Speaker 2 (02:59:07):
Yes, and I love that speech. I think it's really
one of one of my favorite bits of this is
that it continues to show the degree to which, as
in Nimic's Manifesto, tiny spontaneous individual acts of rebellion are
constantly occurring and are a key part of the movement
even when they're not organized. Mathma only gets through her
speech and maybe only lives because a team of door

(02:59:29):
repair guys who do not appear to be anyone's secret
agents just fuck up purposefully at their job, like we
can't get in I don't know, man, we can't get
into the fucking thing, Like you're gonna have to wait.
We're still working on this. Yeah, and it's kind of
inferred that, like it's it's weaponized incompetence, right, And I
really appreciate that bit. We have a showdown with her

(02:59:50):
and her driver because she becomes aware before her speech
that her driver, who she's been taking in as a
confidant in the last couple episodes.

Speaker 11 (02:59:57):
Well no, no, no, no, like her driver, she's known
her driver, Chlorus has been like isb for like two seasons.

Speaker 2 (03:00:03):
This is a different driver. I think than first this
is the same driver, because she's been talking. She's been
talking to Chloris a couple of times. She makes a
comment about that this one hurts.

Speaker 11 (03:00:12):
She's been talking to like Erskine, like, oh shit, yeah,
she's she's been getting closer to like her state aid.
Chlorus has always been like a dipshit who they've kept
around because he's like kind of bad at his job.
He is bad at being an ISB, like like paid informant,
so they like keep him around even though they know
he's reporting to ISB.

Speaker 2 (03:00:31):
There's a little bit of an insinuation with him looking
at his gun and listening to her that maybe he's
rethinking things. But again, we never get the chance to
see that because Cassie and.

Speaker 7 (03:00:40):
I think he's like thinking about if he's gonna have
like a rest or shoot her. Yeah, that was my
bread on it.

Speaker 2 (03:00:44):
I think he's making up his mind about what he's
gonna do. And I don't think we actually see that,
but I mean I think it's open to interpretation.

Speaker 7 (03:00:51):
Yeah, because Cassian domes his little because little.

Speaker 2 (03:00:54):
Thus has and does not take chances like that, he
does not take chances.

Speaker 11 (03:00:59):
And also Cassian employs great tactics in asking Man what
his name is first to engage him in conversation, to
distract him enough to like totally surprise him.

Speaker 2 (03:01:09):
Yeah, very good. I also I like the one of
the kind of it's not stated directly, but like Lannie,
the Imperial deep cover agent within the ISB, is the
guy who put these people there, particularly the incompetent ISB
agent who Cassian first shoots the lady, the.

Speaker 11 (03:01:25):
Person who's infiltrated Man's team a Baile's team. Yeah, Like,
the reason why Luthan knows that there's something wrong with
Bail's team is because the agent that has that has
infiltrated like Baile's network is one of Lonnie's agents. So
Lonnie was able to get word to Luthan that there
could be a problem with with Baile's extraction team and

(03:01:46):
that's what that's what helps helps get mont Yavin safely.

Speaker 6 (03:01:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:01:50):
And it's just kind of more confirmation of the value
of Lannie of yeah, having him there and how he
how much he was worth the sacrifice of Ando Krieger
and his rebels and season.

Speaker 11 (03:02:01):
One Nonnie Lonnie is mvp uh. Like a lot of
this episode is kind of showing how much Luthen's accelerationist
project has kind of succeeded, like like how much he's
he's in somewhat set up Gorman or at least like
fed the fire of Gorman slightly to create this political
crisis to further his like accelerationist goal of creating this
like big conflict, and like we see some of that

(03:02:23):
start to work out, even though Luthen himself is like
having a much harder time and the kind of the
house of cards he's built is starting to crumble and
he's probably not gonna be able to work with many
people for for very much longer.

Speaker 7 (03:02:35):
Yeah, And that's like that That's the other thing I
want to mention about this episode about the way Luthen
operates is that because the way Luthen operates is by
fucking not telling anyone anything and by manipulating people and
by spying on them, and by like having this whole
network of double agents and like people who doesn't like
the problem with operating like that, And this is the
problem that he's running into here is like mon Mathma
does not fucking trust him because the thing that she

(03:02:57):
learned when Luthen comes to tell her like, hey, the
the you can't go with Bail's team. Yeah, Baile's team
is going to kill you. She's like, you fucking this.
You've had my own aids spying on me for two
what the fuck? Yeah, Like it's like like this this
is like a persistent problem with the like and you
start to see this, have have we surround have we
seen Vell like not working with him anymore?

Speaker 2 (03:03:19):
I think we have in these episodes, uh Vell does
not seem to be working with him anymore. She's more
or less completely gone in on the actual like military
part of the alliance.

Speaker 7 (03:03:28):
Yeah then yeah, well and this and this is the
this is the thing about this is like you get
to watch every walking away from You get to watch
everyone who Luthen had worked everyone walks away with him
because they're like this guy keeps being an asshole and
he keeps hiding things with people, and he keeps manipulating everyone,
and it's like it's like he's doing and this is
this is like also this is a kind of person
also that you run into where it's like they're doing

(03:03:49):
really important work and also interpersonally they're impossible to fucking
work with and like like and you can you can
watch it even emulate with this having like real political gratifications. Yeah,
where it's just like, no, this guy has been just
like jerking her chain around and like lying to us
and manipulating us for so long that all of the
relationships that he needs are breaking down and it's no

(03:04:11):
longer a position where because he's the guy with the
money in the arms and the coordination, everyone has to
work with him. They now have a choice to like
go do literally anything else, and everyone keeps walking away,
and it like almost gets mon Mathama killed because she's
so pissed at him that he's been like spy having
her spye.

Speaker 11 (03:04:27):
On, but it it also saves her, Like it's it's
it's it's a double right.

Speaker 7 (03:04:34):
It does seem distrust with Mon, but it also.

Speaker 2 (03:04:37):
Is what God because it is it is him who
gets Mom out. Yeah, and it's it's like it's just
this like really messy.

Speaker 7 (03:04:44):
That's what makes them a good character is that he
is both like he understands who he is.

Speaker 11 (03:04:48):
He's like fucked up and morally compromised and is obviously
hashtag problematic, but it's also completely necessary within the plot
that they've created. Yeah, and like somewhat defensible and like
he knows that he's like fucked, Like he he says,
like there's.

Speaker 7 (03:05:03):
No Yavin for me.

Speaker 11 (03:05:04):
I'm not going to have and I'm never going to
see the sunrise, Like that's not what my role is.
I have to be the asshole here, and yeah, it sucks.
And we start to see like his fake Luthen like
gallery persona is starting to collapse here too, Like yeah,
this whole episode, he's not in his like wag, He's
not in his like fancy clothes. He is like insurgent
Luthen Like this, this this role that he's he's cultivated

(03:05:25):
these past few years is no longer needed and it
does have negative consequences. Yeah, Mon is not trusting him
in this moment where she kind of really has to.
Like Mon thinks that Luthan might just be trying to
like protect himself, that Luthen might not actually care about
Mont's own safety Cassie and is tired of always being
a tool for someone else and is dealing with trauma
and burnout and Erskine's just caught in the middle of

(03:05:47):
this hole, this this whole ship storm and yeah, this
is this is what makes it compelling.

Speaker 7 (03:05:53):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's just good character writing. We've
all been bent by secrecy, is what he says.

Speaker 2 (03:06:01):
Yeah, and and by God he has. And there's there's
a couple of really good moments in this that I
don't want to skip over. There's the next Year in
Next Year in Yavin moment between mon Mathma and Bail Arghana,
which I saw someone on Twitter decree to be Zionist propaganda.

(03:06:22):
I'm sorry, like that that is definitely based on next
Year in Jerusalem, a term that has been in use
for like way more than half of a millennia. That is,
has nothing to do with Zionism. You're just being racist,
I'm sorry. And it's a nice like it's a I think,
a nice nod to the travails of like what we
are seeing is like a diaspora, right, as people have

(03:06:43):
to flee their homes to participate in the rebellion.

Speaker 7 (03:06:45):
Right.

Speaker 2 (03:06:46):
I think it's an appropriate kind of callback to real
world history there and the line where I think that
moment between her and Bail works really effectively and the
thing that he's doing works really effectively.

Speaker 11 (03:06:59):
This interaction between her and Bail also shows like the
difference between how Bail operates, Luthen operates because like Man
asks Bail if he trust his people, like like if
he trusts his extraction team, and he says like of course, yeah,
but he but but he has to admit that he
doesn't actually know them personally for for quote unquote safety,
and like this is this is where it shows like
the difference between someone like Bail, who's maybe less manipulative

(03:07:23):
than Luthan, maybe a little bit less morally compromised than Luthen,
but also in in moments like this, like in the
in specific moments like this comes up a little bit
short compared to Luthen's uh, like you know, semi semi
like destructive and like bridge burning tactics, which which he
which he openly describes as bridge burning. I think I

(03:07:43):
think this episode like, are are there any bridges you
haven't burned yet? Well, we're gonna deal with that soon.

Speaker 2 (03:07:51):
Yeah, we will be dealing with that soon. I would
like to call out mon Mathma's face acting and both
the scenes were casting and just immediately domes some motherfuckers.

Speaker 7 (03:08:00):
WHI jack my god, incredible stuff.

Speaker 2 (03:08:03):
She's like, she's she's known intellectually and it's even hit
her because she had a friend of hers killed, right,
a former lover. She didn't order it, but it was
done and she knew it was happening, So she's not
she had to cope with it, totally naive. But the rebellions,
I would argue, not fully real to her until she
sees a man shot through the brains.

Speaker 11 (03:08:24):
It's funny because she, like like minutes earlier, has a
line where she's like, like, hiding in this set it
this whole time, will have been the hardest thing we've
ever done, and then it's immediately faced with the lethal
consequences for her actions.

Speaker 2 (03:08:37):
Yeah, it's like I don't know, I don't know. It's
much worse.

Speaker 7 (03:08:40):
Well, and it's also like interesting too because it's like
the second person she's seen shot in this episode, right,
because like there's also like the first I s P
Agent who they have shot.

Speaker 11 (03:08:49):
But it's like she doesn't know the person someone she knows, right, No,
it's just like some cop and the known Chlorus for years.

Speaker 2 (03:08:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (03:08:57):
Yeah, and she's just watched her just like ye nope
and the way and it just instantly he's like yea media. Yeah,
She's like, oh shit, would have I gotten myself.

Speaker 11 (03:09:05):
Into Nton's strongest soldiers, killed two undercover I s B.
This episode give them my hand, folks, Yeah, no, this
is this is a really a really, a really sleek episode.
I do like that that like bails, like Infiltrator, has
like a real is b look to her face. As
soon as I saw that actress, I'm like that one

(03:09:27):
has got to be the undercover I s B right, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:09:30):
Yeah, she just got that.

Speaker 7 (03:09:31):
Fabulou has said, ib jaw very good.

Speaker 2 (03:09:36):
There's one thing I'd like to bring up at the
end of these episodes. It's kind of a callback to
the very first episode of the show. Is the first
time we see our boy Cyril. He's just convinced that
something is and people I've seen people point out Seria
was actually really good at his job. He points this
out that like I salved a murder in two days, right,
he figured out who had who had killed these officers

(03:09:56):
very quickly. And one of my favorite little undercutting of
series points is that his boss solves it even faster,
like in that first conversation, because his boss is an
older guy, he's a corporate cop. He clearly has been
doing whatever he's been doing since probably before the Clone Wars. Right,
he's been nearer the end of his career than the beginning,
and he doesn't like the Empire.

Speaker 6 (03:10:17):
Right.

Speaker 2 (03:10:18):
He's not even that much of a law and order guy.
He's more of a get through the day and do
my fucking job guy. When Cyril brings up Cassie and
killing these cops, he's like, yeah, man, they're at a brothel.
I know their salaries. They can't afford that. They were
shaking people down. They shake the wrong guy down and
they got killed. Best to ignore it. You don't want
the Empire over here. And every aspect of Cyril's life

(03:10:40):
would have been better if he'd listened to this guy
who I'm sure spins the rest of the empire, sitting
on like barely notices the end of things. You know,
he's probably retired by then. Just a shout out to
the smartest, the smartest guy in security services we meet
over the course of these entire series, that old dude
at the desk. She was like, not worth it, not

(03:11:01):
getting into it. Yeah, I wouldn't ask anybody anything. A
poor poor Cyle, what a little weasel Leah. And he
fucked up. He fucked up bad.

Speaker 11 (03:11:15):
I love I always love being in the Senate. She
does call the Gordon massacre a genocide, performs a whole speech,
very very solid acting as usual, genevievel Riley fantastic work
as Asma on this entire season.

Speaker 2 (03:11:30):
Everyone's great. God damn. Oh well, just talk a little
bit about Deadri's breakdown after the Gorman.

Speaker 7 (03:11:36):
Master Yeah in episode eighth, Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:11:39):
Yeah, which also does fit into the whole who are
you thing where we see that she's not like a
complete sociopath, right, She's not absolutely devoid of horror over
what she's doing. She's just willing to accept the horror
in order to get what she wants out of life,
which I think is just like a much more realistic
portrayal of human evil than we tend to get.

Speaker 4 (03:12:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 7 (03:12:01):
She she finds ways to cope and justify.

Speaker 11 (03:12:03):
Yeah, And like you know, Lonnie is having to find
ways to cope and justify, but he's doing that through
being a double agent and feeding and feeding Luthen, like
very very important intel as we see in this episode
and the next let's see. I think this is this
is most of what I what I had on on
on thisisode. Oh yeah, I mean, BIXI Bix bricks up

(03:12:24):
with Cassian to force Cassian to stay in the U
in the Alliance, even though he's probably not gonna be
working with Luthen again. I'll have more to say about
Bis next week, I guess.

Speaker 2 (03:12:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, I I have a lot to
say about this, but I think we'll wait until last
episode to fully discuss BIX. I think that's probably best.

Speaker 3 (03:12:43):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (03:12:44):
Ye, But but this, this batch specifically, I think is
some is some real solid, real solid so is Wow
Star Wars.

Speaker 2 (03:12:53):
The stars have never been more wars, Garrison, the stars
have never been more wars? Can all agree on that?

Speaker 11 (03:13:22):
I will get way too mad if I talk about
the DNC anymore in this preamble. This is It could
happen here Executive Disorder, our weekly newscast covering what's happening
in the White House, the crumbling world, and what it
means for you. I'm Garrison Davis today. I'm joined by
James Stout, Mia Wong, and Robert Evans. Right, everybody, this episode,
we are covering the week of May eighth through May fifteenth.

(03:13:45):
Trump gets bribed by cutter, Stephen Miller wants to suspend
Habeas Corpus and a Twitch streamer gets interrogated at the border.

Speaker 7 (03:13:53):
How are we doing, fellas?

Speaker 2 (03:13:55):
Uh, I don't know bad Like every time I'm.

Speaker 7 (03:14:00):
Not talking to a border patrol willingly and yeah, that's
what I'm doing that I'm not doing. I'm staying the
fuck away from the border.

Speaker 2 (03:14:08):
Although it's also impossible to say the fuck away from
the border because like ninety percent of the country lives
technically within the patrols from met Yeah.

Speaker 11 (03:14:18):
Yeah, but if you are happening to go to the
border and you do get stopped by law enforcement, you
should not talk to them. You should You should say
that you're staying silent and will only speak with a lawyer.

Speaker 2 (03:14:28):
You have certain things that you have to say, right
if they decide to talk to you about something other
than you know, here's my passport, et cetera. Do I
have anything to declare? Which you do have to answer
if they attempt to engage you in other conversation about, say,
your political beliefs. All you have to say is am
I being detained? And if they say yes, you say,

(03:14:49):
I plead the fifth and I demand to speak to
a lawyer, and then nothing else. There's nothing else you say.
That's how you should handle this situation.

Speaker 11 (03:14:57):
Yeah, you definitely do not need to debate your politics.
Not required with the border patrol.

Speaker 9 (03:15:03):
Tell them how you feel about Potestine. That's yeah, not
gonna end.

Speaker 2 (03:15:09):
Well, no, not necessary, And yeah, like it's one of
those things I have no desire to like get into
an online beef with the fellow who got stopped. He
is a big boy and able to make his own choices.
But I do not recommend you make those same choices,
because there's no actual benefit to you in doing that, right, Yeah, yeah,

(03:15:30):
don't coalk the cops. It's very easy to not talk
to the cops. I'm doing it right now. Uh huh,
that's what you think, trivially easy. Yeah, it's it's it's
simple and unnecessary, and it's just like largely the problem
is that and this is even something that he talked
about where like, well, the guy seemed really nice and
he apologetic and like he didn't want to have to
do this. And if you're having a conversation like that

(03:15:53):
with them, then they're getting what they want out of it,
which is for you to feel like that right, for
you to feel like, oh okay, this guy's this guy's nice,
I can chat with him for a little while you
feel safe enough to talk. Yeah, yes, that's their entire job,
that's what they're trying to get you to do.

Speaker 11 (03:16:11):
Yeah, and again like this is this is specifically if
you are, like a US citizen coming to re enter
the country. There's there's different different rules and different different
suggestions which you should talk with an immigration lawyer about
if you were not a US citizen.

Speaker 2 (03:16:23):
Yes, yes, not advice for people who are coming here
and not citizens. Yeah, yeah, none of this is.

Speaker 11 (03:16:29):
But yeah, you really really do not need to get
into a debate with the border guard about your politics
when you're trying to enter the country.

Speaker 2 (03:16:36):
Or any other time. Really just just don't really any time. Yeah,
there's no point in time in which that's useful to
you or anyone else. You ain't changing doing it.

Speaker 3 (03:16:46):
Maybe do it.

Speaker 11 (03:16:47):
Maybe there's more to politics than debate. No, speaking of
more to politics, the PKK, what's going on with the PKK, fellas.

Speaker 2 (03:16:56):
We should, we should give a brief overview of who
the PKK is is. The PKK is the Kurdish Workers Party,
and it is originally a maoist and now not that
terrorist group. That's legally how it's defined by the United
States and by most Western countries. That was started in
southern Turkey like in the late seventies, close to fifty

(03:17:18):
years ago, and it started out as a rather different
kind of organization than it is. It's one of its
founders and generally the guy referred to as its founder
as a dude named of the la Aujalon or Oppo
who got captioned Kenya a few decades back and has
been in a Turkish prison ever since, but does continue

(03:17:40):
to like write stuff that informs because there's kind of
this strong Maoist core at the heart of the foundation
of the party continues to have a lot of influence
over it. And this is the root of kind of
the different organizations that sprung out and became what we
call Rajava. Is this group that kind of came in

(03:18:01):
during Isis's invasion and you know, had changed significantly from
its MAOIs roots at that point, and kind of from
the PKK, we get the YPG and the YPJ and
you know, these different social and militant movements in Northeast Syria. Anyway, Yeah,
they would dispute the from the PKK, they sure would. Yes,

(03:18:25):
the robots for a good legal reason. Yes, yes, but
they're all.

Speaker 9 (03:18:30):
Inspired by the political thought of oyser Land, right, Like
we can say that safely. Yeah, and Ouserland, I guess
addressed by video the twelfth Congress of the PKK which
occurred earlier this month, at which they voted to disband
themselves and lay down their arms. So that's the d
A meeting, right, they get together. Obviously it seems that

(03:18:52):
Turkey decided not to ask strike that meeting. Turkey has
been carrying out strikes against the PKK in three different
countries for decades, and sort of small arms engagements as well,
and artillery in the whole nine yards. So yeah, at
that conference they decided to lay down their arms and
begin disbanding themselves and return to They're still pursuing their

(03:19:14):
struggle I guess, for freedom for Kedistan.

Speaker 2 (03:19:17):
But this time through the democratic process. Yeah. We're going
to cover this subject in more detail on Tuesday next Tuesday.
But suffice it to say, like this does not mean
that like the PKK is like that all of the
kind of different movements that came out of and were

(03:19:37):
inspired by the PKK are like folding up and setting
up shop. This is more of a pragmatic decision made
as the result of the changes of situations on the
ground and the progress that a number of these other
movements have made. And yeah, this is worthy of deeper discussion.
We'll give a deeper discussion. But this is something that's
going to hopefully at least mean that Turkey spends less

(03:19:59):
time northern Iraq, although that it may be foolish to
hope too much for that.

Speaker 9 (03:20:05):
Do you love to bumble an Iraq? I guess they're
calling it there like good Friday moments. So people who
are familiar with the Irish situation.

Speaker 2 (03:20:12):
Yeah, when the ira was like, maybe we've done enough.

Speaker 9 (03:20:18):
And significantly when there were releases of people who were incarcerated.

Speaker 2 (03:20:22):
Right, right, and the British government did make some significant
concessions too.

Speaker 9 (03:20:25):
Yes, so we will learn more of there were concessions
involved in this process or if it was a kind
of unilateral thing.

Speaker 2 (03:20:31):
Yeah, there's a lot of rumors again, just to go briefly,
that the Turkish government essentially needs that aired one essentially
needs some of the support of the Kurdish parties in
order to maintain keep doing Erdawan shit. So again we'll
see on all that.

Speaker 7 (03:20:47):
Yep, speaking of not blowing each other up. India and Pakistan, well, yeah,
slightly blowing lightly blowing each other up. Can we say
that without minimizing it, because yeah, there's some fens and
blowing up.

Speaker 2 (03:21:01):
Yeah, so let's let's talk about this.

Speaker 6 (03:21:03):
Uh.

Speaker 7 (03:21:03):
We are thankfully no longer on nuclear war watch, which
is great.

Speaker 2 (03:21:09):
Put on pause. It's all cool, everything's fine.

Speaker 11 (03:21:14):
I was I was talking with a read last night
about whenever this sort of confrontation happens. One of the
nice things about a globalist world order is that if
the rest of the world goes.

Speaker 7 (03:21:26):
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa Hello, who come on now, it
kind of works.

Speaker 2 (03:21:34):
Pull him back, hold me back, bro China got a
hand on pakistans es. It's not worth it. They're not
worth it. That's the role of the United Nations. Jade
E Vance like massaging India's shoulders.

Speaker 7 (03:21:49):
I know, man, I know, but it's.

Speaker 2 (03:21:52):
Whatever.

Speaker 6 (03:21:53):
Whatever.

Speaker 11 (03:21:53):
Things get really spicy between two equal powers. If one
of their buddies just can go hey, hey, dude, whoa whoa, Oh,
it kind of works, which is a little bit silly,
but yeah, yeah, just.

Speaker 2 (03:22:04):
Remind everyone in charge, do you know how rich you are?
Come on, you don't want this like you've got hot
tubs in your manshin, it ain't worth it.

Speaker 7 (03:22:14):
Yeah, foreign politics, so much of it is just so
unbelievably stupid, Like it is just like weird nationalist masculinity bullshit,
where it's like, okay, so we killed some of your
your people, and then you're gonna kill some of our people,
and then we can both agree that we like retaliated,
neither of us back down, and then we'll do a ceasefire.
So the good news here is that we did actually
get a ceasefire. The ceasefire was holding, and it's continued

(03:22:36):
to hold. This is not like a kind of like
Israel Palace and cease fire where the Israelis immediately just
start like shooting everyone an instant later. This is actually holding.
It's good, it will probably continue to hold. We got
some more details from Reuters who talked to a bunch
of officials from different camps. But we know now we're

(03:22:58):
gonna do a longer episode about this next week.

Speaker 2 (03:23:00):
Tuesday. Yeah, all the walls on Tuesday.

Speaker 7 (03:23:03):
Probably Tuesday, unless, like I don't know, like some other
shit happens. Who knows, I don't I don't want to
ever promise an episode's.

Speaker 2 (03:23:09):
Going out of a day because.

Speaker 5 (03:23:10):
Tuesday or Wednesday, because it's like like we could we
could wake up to Trump is likely Trump has like
declared that like his meme coin is now the official
currency of the United States or something like who.

Speaker 7 (03:23:21):
Knows, you say, or Wednesday, we'll say, yeah. Yeah. So
what's used to have happened that really escalated everything is
that India fired on a critical Pakistani air base and
Pakistan was like, all right, gotta go fucking sick on
mode now, and so they do their retaliation. India appears
to not have understood exactly how pissed off Pakistan was

(03:23:43):
going to be about them hitting this airbase, which also,
like you would, I don't know what their military planning is,
like you would assume.

Speaker 2 (03:23:49):
Trees normally love it when you hit their air bases.

Speaker 6 (03:23:52):
Whatever.

Speaker 2 (03:23:54):
Ran at Area fifty one, Yeah, like what are we
doing here? What are we doing here?

Speaker 7 (03:23:58):
But the thing that does seem to have worked is
that Mark or Rubio seems to have actually been like
able to kind of pass information along between the advance
was also sort of involved. It seemed mostly like Rubio
was able to pass a thing to the Pakistani government,
being like, hey, the Indians are gonna stop. And the
Pakistani government was like, yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:24:19):
Yeah, right, right, but this is getting done.

Speaker 7 (03:24:23):
We did our retaliatory attacks, like we fucked up.

Speaker 2 (03:24:25):
A bunch of expensive jets. Like that is key is
that everybody can sort of this didn't go on so
far that that like everyone has a lot to avenge,
and it went on enough that everybody can claim some wins.
Pakistan could be like, we really did some damage to
India's best chunk of their air force, and India can

(03:24:47):
be like, we blew up some stuff you know, everybody's got.
If you if you don't have enough information to know
that like nobody really won, you can pretend you did, right,
And that's what both of them are doing.

Speaker 7 (03:25:00):
Yeah, And I think this was this one were talking
about this last week, like that the best case scenario
for this is actually I kind of better than the
best case scenario I was thinking of. I mean, not
this is like none of this is a good outcome,
but the outcome here of like it's like a very
abbreviated version of like an Israel iron thing where they
shoot each other a few times and then stop. Hopefully
this will continue to hold and hopefully both sides will

(03:25:22):
not take this, and this is something that they were
talking about. One of the experts that we're just talking
to were talking about was like, hopefully both sides don't
see this as a like, oh, we can have conflict
between two nuclear empowers and it'll be okay. Hopefully both
sides are going to be like this was very dumb,
but right now it seems to be over. The ceasefires holding.
Hopefully more people don't die.

Speaker 8 (03:25:44):
Yep.

Speaker 9 (03:25:44):
Yeah, the Dessault stug price though, that that took a
foul after all shut down.

Speaker 2 (03:25:50):
That's kind of funny. You know what else is funny?
Hopefully the russ Ads. Yeah, this podcast nice one.

Speaker 7 (03:25:58):
Yeah, that's why they pay me the baud ocre books.
Uh yeah, welcome back to something ed. If you have ed,

(03:26:20):
please consider him sent Cutter, I hardly okay, sorry now, Garrison,
I'm so proud of you, buddy.

Speaker 2 (03:26:29):
That was the right thing to say. That was the
right thing to say.

Speaker 7 (03:26:32):
Ahead of Trump's planned trip to the Middle East, Cutter
has offered a gift to President Trump, a four hundred
million dollar Boeing seven forty seven eight luxury jet known
as a Palace in the Sky, which Trump does plan
to accept.

Speaker 2 (03:26:48):
Which a stupid fucking plan.

Speaker 7 (03:26:52):
You gotta flick up a picture of this thing. It
is absurd, and I gotta say, honestly, my primary thoughts,
I know they should be like offense and anger, but
most they're mostly ah cutter.

Speaker 2 (03:27:03):
You know the assignment. You knew exactly this man can't
turn down a luxury palace plane. Of course, it's not.
Someone should off from the fucking snow piercer. You know
it's all gold up in there. It is.

Speaker 7 (03:27:16):
It is all gold up in there. Actually, you can
look it up. It absolutely is. I don't need to
garrison in my in my mind palace, I've already seen
the Okay, hit me with the leak.

Speaker 2 (03:27:33):
Why did we allow this to be constructed? Because it's
it's one of those things. This is not this like again,
should it not be legal for Trump to do this?
Is it not legal for Trump to do this? Of course?
Is it physically possible for the man Donald Trump to
say no to this plane?

Speaker 7 (03:27:49):
Now?

Speaker 2 (03:27:50):
No, no, that never was in the carts.

Speaker 7 (03:27:53):
This this is a temple to the defeat of the
International Workers Movement.

Speaker 2 (03:27:57):
Jesus, I want to see pitches of this plane. Someone
to send me pitches the p oh oh good lord,
oh good lord. Okay, I'm putting it. I mean it's
exactly the plane you'd think.

Speaker 11 (03:28:08):
Yes, it's the most Trump thing you could ever imagine. Yeah,
it's so funny.

Speaker 2 (03:28:14):
I'm so angry.

Speaker 7 (03:28:15):
It's just Trump tower in the sky, like you know,
it's it's actually what I will say about that, Gere,
is a Trump tower in the sky is like a
ship built to look fancy to like tasteless Americans. The
Katari versions actually is actually extremely nice. Yes, the Immirant

(03:28:36):
of Qatar knows what they're fucking doing when it comes
to interior design for fucking evil rich people.

Speaker 2 (03:28:42):
This you could have had this if you replace the
walls that are clearly a plane. This could have been
like a set on and or from like a high
level coruscant, like the person's house, like that's that's what
we're talking. Especially that like room with the elevator in
the middle, like that's a set where mon Mathma yells
at her like it's beautiful.

Speaker 11 (03:29:02):
So this plane would be used as a new Air
Force one and after his term, Trump would retain ownership
through his Presidential Library Foundation.

Speaker 2 (03:29:13):
Of course, that's so many.

Speaker 11 (03:29:16):
Issues with this, from like national security to like a
very clear bribe. On Monday, Trump told reporters quote, I
could be a stupid person and say no, we don't
want to free very expensive airplane.

Speaker 7 (03:29:29):
I thought it was a great gesture. Unquote.

Speaker 2 (03:29:32):
Of course, of course what owned So what made a
comment that like we received the Statue of Liberty as
a gift. It's the same thing.

Speaker 7 (03:29:45):
Yeah, that's not really the same thing.

Speaker 9 (03:29:47):
Guys, If like it was Jeff, I don't know who
is president went arrive, but if the president was living
inside the Statue of Liberty, Chester, I think it was
Chester aar there.

Speaker 2 (03:29:56):
Yeah, okay, yeah, I don't remember exactly.

Speaker 7 (03:29:59):
I you also love that Trump isn't making the same
argument that like the old that Clinton supporters used to,
which is like, well you can take money from a
thing without being influenced by it, And like the New
York Times is making this argument. They're like, well, just
because people are are spending one million dollars to have
dinner at a crypto thing with Trump doesn't mean that
he's actually been influenced by the money, so you can't
call it bribery.

Speaker 2 (03:30:19):
And I was like, this is great society.

Speaker 7 (03:30:21):
We love this, we love this. Just give him give
give the president the fancy.

Speaker 2 (03:30:24):
Quinn pro what.

Speaker 9 (03:30:26):
Yeah, to be fair, Trump does have something of a
history of entering into a financial contract with people and
then totally abandoning his end of it, So you could
you could make that up.

Speaker 2 (03:30:36):
Yeah, it's so bad Trump.

Speaker 11 (03:30:38):
They get into an argument with with ABC anchors when
they asked him if he thought this could be seen
as a bribe.

Speaker 7 (03:30:45):
I'll play a short clip here.

Speaker 10 (03:30:47):
Why you're saying people who view that luxury jet as
a personal would get to you?

Speaker 6 (03:30:51):
Why not leave it your ABC? Fake news only ABC?

Speaker 13 (03:30:55):
Well a few of you would, let me tell you,
you should be bad asking the question they're giving us
a free jet, I could say, no, no, no, don't
give us.

Speaker 6 (03:31:05):
I want to pay you a billion or four hundred
million or whatever it is. Well, I could say thank
you very much. You know those an all golfer named
Sam Snay Did you ever hear me? One? ADQ terms
was a great golfer.

Speaker 11 (03:31:19):
After that, he goes on to talk about golf for
a whole minute, building an analogy based on making an
easy putt on a golf course. I'm going to quote
from BBC quote Attorney General Pambondi reportedly investigated the legality
of the deal and determined that because there are no
explicit conditions attached, it would not amount to a bribe.

(03:31:40):
Conservatives and others were quick to point out that Bondi
was registered as a lobbyist for Cutter prior to joining
Trump's cabinet, at some point, earning up to one hundred
and fifteen thousand dollars a month for her work for
the Qatari government.

Speaker 2 (03:31:54):
Yeah, no, one's going to be like influenced by a
mere one hundred and fourteen thousand dollars a month. You couldn't,
for example, easily immediately so much money and get me
to say everyone should buy a Chevy truck, the new Ram,
that's the vehicle of the proletariat Ram.

Speaker 7 (03:32:12):
We know that this is fake because Robert would never
knowingly endorse a Chevy product for.

Speaker 2 (03:32:17):
One hundred and fourteen thousand dollars. You think I wouldn't
sell chevyes.

Speaker 11 (03:32:23):
But this is the most like corrupt administration we've ever
seen before. It's absurd, like just completely like flying it
in your face. Even ten Cruz said that this gift
could could impose quote significant espionage and surveillance problems unquote
because yeah, that plane.

Speaker 2 (03:32:38):
Is going to be so fun for thee Oh my god,
how they're just the whole plane. It's a flying bug.
It's so funny.

Speaker 11 (03:32:47):
Our government they're gonna listened to every Air Force one meeting.

Speaker 2 (03:32:52):
Not only are they going to listen into it, the
guy whose job that is, Like, they've already been paying
almost as much as the plane costs for him to
get pre empt of therapy to listen to that many
Trump inner circle conversations. The fucking Emir himself is putting
a hand. I know, man, I know it's gonna be hard.
Like we're all back, We're all behind you.

Speaker 11 (03:33:15):
Everyone from like Ben Shapiro to Laura Lumer have have
opposed this de facto bribe as quote unquote sleazy, while
also pointing to Cutter as a terrorist aligned state.

Speaker 2 (03:33:26):
Did you think your guy was? Come on, you watched
Donald Trump. You believe me he's gonna take a golden
palace in the sky.

Speaker 9 (03:33:35):
Come on, man, didn't they also wheel out a mobile
McDonald's faming costa so he could do.

Speaker 2 (03:33:42):
That was in Saudi Arabia to Saudi Arabia, that was Arabia.

Speaker 7 (03:33:46):
They're also planning to possibly construct a new Trump Tower
in Dubai.

Speaker 2 (03:33:50):
Su Honestly, both Dubai and Trump deserve that kind of
like shade. Yeah, sure they belong together.

Speaker 11 (03:33:59):
Yeah, the people that Trump is negotiating with here just
really know how to like get wins out of him,
Like yeah, Trump Tower, here's a mobile McDonald.

Speaker 7 (03:34:08):
Here's a four million dollar free jet. They really have
him on law.

Speaker 2 (03:34:13):
It's tragic because the mobile McDonald's and burger Kings used
to be a sign of American like logistical dominance that
like I was wondering if it had invaded it rock,
like fuck our ability to like airstrike anyone anywhere. We
can put a fully operational McDonald's anywhere on the planet
in about sixteen hours, like no one else can do that.

Speaker 9 (03:34:35):
Yeah, we invaded a rock with burger King trailers, yes, yes.

Speaker 2 (03:34:39):
And to see it turned against our values so much.
Is it's just deeply if no, I mean, I'm joking here,
but it is funny. Speaking of foreign trade, what is
that I hear? Is that is that the lucid melody
of tariff reef Garrison.

Speaker 4 (03:35:00):
Locking jazz b locking jazz bot sorry, locking.

Speaker 8 (03:35:08):
Locking jazz rocking jazz Bob.

Speaker 2 (03:35:13):
We're all thinking about the best way we ever spent
our company money. Every penny of that one hundred and
fourteen thousand dollars a month Chevy gives us for telling
people to buy the new Rams. It went to a
good place.

Speaker 9 (03:35:24):
Yeah, just if we can just get one more automotive
industry sponsor, then I can finally rewrite White Riot to
be about white genocide in South Africa.

Speaker 2 (03:35:32):
That's right. We're courting Shell right now. So don't worry, James,
We're gonna get that cover. But I'm glad to hear it.

Speaker 11 (03:35:39):
So I heard all the tariffs are gone, basically. I
heard we're back to normal. Nothing ever happens. I can
go back to buying Timu all day long. I can't
stop playing those those TV gambling ads. And everything's normal, right, Mia.

Speaker 7 (03:35:53):
Okay, So let's let's let's where are we at with
the turf tariffs? So there were actual negotiations between the
US and Sharp and so they agreed to a ninety
day pause on the one hundred and forty five percent
tariff and the one hundred and twenty percent tariff that
China had imposed retaliation. However, there's still thirty percent, like

(03:36:15):
a tariffs on all Chinese goods, which is in and
of itself alone enough to cause a recession. I just
want everyone's Easter forgotten. This China's is back down to
ten percent across the board on all us goods. Now again,
this is a ninety day pause, which has been like
this is just the way that all this functions now
is nothing ever ends. It just gets kicked off like

(03:36:35):
down the road for ninety days. So we'll be back
here in ninety No, well, okay, we'll be back in
the crisis zone a bit before that, because we're still
on the other ninety day countdown, which the Liberation Day
turf tariff one for every single country on Earth.

Speaker 11 (03:36:49):
Honestly, I don't think these countdowns are real, and I
know this is like this is like different from the
way like other commentators will talk about how these tariffs
aren't really Like I'm not saying these tariffs aren't real.
I don't know if there's someone in the White House
who is literally counting down each day here like this.

Speaker 2 (03:37:05):
No, I think there is.

Speaker 7 (03:37:06):
I think I think it's Navarro, because Navarro actually wants
all of these terriffs, and that's that's that's the driving
thing behind this is Trump kind of wants these tariffs,
but there's not enough of him there psychologically to like
push it unless Navarro is doing it. But the reason
these are taking the form of pauses is because Trump
like actually wants them until he can like negotiate his

(03:37:27):
big shiny deal or whatever the fuck that like can't
happen structurally for reasons we'll get into.

Speaker 11 (03:37:31):
But like, I'm just remembering the Canada Mexico tariffs that
Trump put on a ninety day pause and then can
we completely forgot about and instead it did the Liberation
Day tariffs, which then got another ninety day pause.

Speaker 7 (03:37:42):
No, but there was also the but also like the
auto tariffs got paused and then those came off and
like went into effect. Yeah, so some of these like
have happened, and like and I think, I really think it.
The actual thing it comes down to is like will
Navarro be the last person in the room with Trump
or will it be one of his other cabinet people
who don't support this stuff? And I think it's just
a coin flip basically, as like who wrap fucks the

(03:38:06):
other one successfully as to whether like all this stuff
happens and there's still like more tariffs that are like
floating in the air that we haven't heard anything about
from last week. Wild wild tariffs frolicking in the woods.

Speaker 2 (03:38:16):
Yeah, like sour dough. They can just flick it.

Speaker 7 (03:38:21):
I want to actually explain what the fuck is going
on with the Chinese tariffs though, because the reporting on
it has been really bad and no one's in the
idea what the fuck is going on? So Okay, on
the one hand, there is still the thirty percent across
the board on all Chinese coots. However, the fee for
small packages right, which is the stuff that was in
the Deminimus exemption that we talked about getting reduced, so

(03:38:42):
that tariff is at fifty four percent or a one
hundred dollars flat fee for the package. What qualifies as
a small package value. I think it's like sub eight
hundred dollars, okay roughly, so yeah, And they also still
have to go through like actual full custs which which
the package is from Deminimus, like weren't going through right, Okay.

(03:39:03):
So this is still lethal to like Tamu and Chian
and like all of the all the companies that have
been relying on this stuff. It's still lethal to like
vast quantities of like parts of the supply chain that
we haven't even seen yet that we're getting, like the
one kind of screw that they need in cheap Chinese packages,
because you could just do that and so and so
that's what's still in effect right now. And as best

(03:39:26):
I can tell, there hasn't actually been a negotiation.

Speaker 2 (03:39:28):
It's it's also.

Speaker 7 (03:39:29):
Unclear whether the Chinese government like knew that those were
going to go back into effect because there because Trump
did this whole thing like, ah, the tarifs are over,
blah blah blahlah blah, no are the thirty percent tariff
on all goods, And then the next day he was like, oh, yeah, no,
but that the small package one's still there, and that
rates also changed, So it's also possible by tomorrow the
rates are different. Because this is the dominant feature of
all of this structurally is just complete chaos, Like it's

(03:39:51):
it's just chaos. Nobody has any idea what the fuck
is happening, And this is just a complete fiasco for
literally everyone, because the shifts and teriff rates that are
happening on a day by day basis are shifts large
enough to shift the entire structure of the global economy,
and they're just happening every days. And that's the thing
that's like fucking the economy almost as much as like
the actual tariffs, is just the chaos of the uncertainty

(03:40:14):
and the inability to do any kind of like even
the short term planning that businesses usually do. It's also
worth noting that like there's no actual trade deal right,
Like there isn't actually a US China trade deal. There's
just they both agreed to like back off for a
while while they do negotiations. There's also no structural way

(03:40:34):
to actually like resolve the problem that Trump sees here,
which is that like Trump and Navarro and the hardliners
don't want there to be a US trade deficit with China,
and that's not a thing that could be solved, never
gonna happen.

Speaker 2 (03:40:46):
That's crazy.

Speaker 7 (03:40:47):
Yeah, yeah, And so you know, and this has been
playing out in other negotiations too. The US has been
in negotiations with India. Trump just like came out and
straight up lied and said that India had agreed to
get rid of all their tariffs, and India was like, no,
we didn't. What the fuck you talk talking about.

Speaker 2 (03:41:00):
Art of the deal.

Speaker 7 (03:41:02):
Yeah, so you know, this is all turned into just
an utter fiasco. Meanwhile, we're starting to see signs that, yeah,
the price increase, so we all knew we're coming up coming.
Walmart is doing massive price increases, a bunch of other
companies are considering them. They're probably going to start very soon.
I want to read this quote from an economist named
Marcus Nolan that NBC talk to, who is a senior

(03:41:24):
institute for the Pierson Institute for International Economics. He said, quote,
I think we're in for a lot more turbulence and
a lot more back and forth, and the market seems
to grasp, which I'm glad someone else is finally fucking
saying this, because like, yeah, no shit. And part of
what was going on here too is the market is
just incredibly easy to manipulate because people running the markets
are very stupid, and the moment they realize like you

(03:41:47):
can just very very easily make an unhinged amount of
money by being like the TERRORISTI are going to go
into a fact and then betting against the market. There's
been so much like insider stories of like insider trading
from this stuff, and I don't think that's like the
major thing going on. But it's also like it's just
such an easy grift to pull if you know what's
gonna happen. Like I could have made a bunch of
money if I'd been willing to be like, hey, friends,
give me a bunch of money to put to the
stock market and let me short a bunch of shit

(03:42:08):
the day before the Liberation Day terrrish or whatever.

Speaker 11 (03:42:11):
And that's a plug for our new weekend show where
Mia does Jim Kramer. We're gonna we're gonna start doing
stock portfolio suggestions. It's called Markets with Mia, Markets with
MEA thank you James, Yeah, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (03:42:24):
Well I will.

Speaker 7 (03:42:24):
I will fucking I will throw darts at a dartboard
and then throw the dartboard at a larger dartboard, and
I will outperform Jim Kramer.

Speaker 2 (03:42:31):
Yeah, we're calling this to do whatever the opposite of
Jim Kramer says power hour. We've literally just reversed his audio.

Speaker 7 (03:42:42):
It's such a powerful investment strategy, never been defeated. Okay,
So so the one last thing I want to talk about,
which is not quite terriff but is ECON related, is
that there are for the financial times, there is a
plan in s trow administration to roll back a bunch
of the rules about leverage ratios we're imposed on banks
for two thousand and eight. And so, okay, Mia, what

(03:43:02):
the fuck is a leverage ratio?

Speaker 9 (03:43:04):
Think the very short leave underneath the bank, and if
you want to tip it over, you have to be
quite a long way like away from it actually, and
then you pivot on the other end.

Speaker 7 (03:43:12):
I think this is a very funny joke, but no
one else is laughing on the call. No. I would
try to figure out how to write part two of it,
but then you just brought up Archimedies. I try to
over Archimedes's name, but I couldn't do it, So okay.
So basically, basically what this is is that so banks
have just like a bunch of unbelievably risky assets, and
this is a requirement that they actually have assets that

(03:43:33):
are safe. Yeah, so they have the assets that are
risky go under. They don't get fucking nukes like everyone
did in two thousand and eight. Now, this is worth
noting because one of the other kind of stories that's
kind of flown under the radar is that in the
past couple of years, a bunch of banks and a
bunch of investment firms have been getting back to the
literally the exact types of extremely risky mortgage backed securities

(03:43:54):
at the cause the two thousand and eight financial collapse.
It's literally the same people to bring them back do
the same thing again. They've also I'm doing it with
auto loans, which is great. And in the middle of this,
the Trump administration wants to roll back a bunch of
the protections that have been maintaining this very very precarious
balance so that the banking system has been in to
like not really collapse for the past decade and a half.

(03:44:16):
So that's gonna be fun. The rumor is is gonna
happen over the summer. If he does this over the summer,
right as everything kicks off, it's gonna be a trip.
Do you know what else is a trip?

Speaker 11 (03:44:26):
These products and services that support this podcast. Woo all right,
we are back. We're gonna close this episode with me
and James talking about a whole bunch of really bad

(03:44:48):
immigration stuff that has happened again, which I feel like
is kind of an evergreen for us. Same thing with
Tariff top. We always have some bad immigration news and
this week is no different. On Friday ninth, Stephen Miller
announced that the administration is quote actively looking at suspending
Habeas corpus. James don't to give a very brief definition

(03:45:10):
of what Habeas corpus is.

Speaker 9 (03:45:12):
Yeah, it's it's just a foundation of like most legal
systems in the world, which draw I guess on English
common law means bring me the body, right, Like the
idea is you have to present some evidence before just incarcerating.

Speaker 7 (03:45:25):
If you're going to say this guy killed somebody, there
better be a corpse. Right, needs to be like reason
and due process for detention.

Speaker 6 (03:45:32):
Yeah.

Speaker 9 (03:45:33):
Yeah, you can't just lock someone up because you wanted to. Yeah,
actually you.

Speaker 7 (03:45:38):
Can, but you sometimes can.

Speaker 11 (03:45:40):
And this does predate the United States, and the United
States itself has suspended Habeas corpus a few times, usually
in specific states. For instance, following the Pearl Harbor attack,
Habeas Corpus was suspended in Hawaii to detain Japanese civilians.
A President Grant and Congress works together to suspend haby
Corpus in South Carolina during reconstruction. Admits to terrorist attacks

(03:46:03):
from the KKK, which is kind of crazy to think
about in retrospect, and the very first time Habeas Corpus
was suspended was in the lead up to the Civil
War when President Lincoln called for its suspension in the
state of Maryland. Now that unilateral action was later deemed
unconstitutional by the Supreme Court, and now it's widely recognized
that only Congress has the right to suspend Habeas corpus.

(03:46:25):
This is in the case of rebellion or invasion. Now,
this is something that Stephen Miller is talking about. It
should be incredibly worrying. Obviously, they've kind of tried to
make this happen just already without like explicitly saying so,
which is also what like FDR tried to do during
World War Two, where they don't formally call for the
suspension like nationwide, but they start instituting policies that definitely

(03:46:48):
like do yeah exactly, which is why we're seeing so
many habeas petitions being filed across the state when people
have been detained unlawfully. Homeland Security Secretary Christinomes said on
Wednesday in congressional hearing that the level of border crossings
under Joe Biden provides a sufficient legal justification to suspend
Habeas corpus. Following Trump's declaration of invasion. So this is

(03:47:13):
something to watch out for as they start trying to
basically codify all of the actions that they're currently doing
which can be construed as illegal or certainly legally questionable,
they're going to try to find ways to make them
more explicitly legal.

Speaker 9 (03:47:26):
So probably the most notable immigration happening this week is
one that we already covered on the show, and it
is the reopening of the United States refugee emissions program.

Speaker 7 (03:47:37):
We're taking refugees again.

Speaker 2 (03:47:38):
We didn't, we didn't, yeh.

Speaker 9 (03:47:40):
Unfortunately, we're only taking the persecuted Africanas of South Africa.
Wait what Yeah, the survivors of the white genocide, those
those who made it through.

Speaker 7 (03:47:52):
Quote unquote white genocide, the white zero side that even
Groc doesn't agree existly.

Speaker 9 (03:47:56):
Yeah, can't make his digital child believe in.

Speaker 11 (03:48:00):
Let me actually quote from a from a grok doing
a Charger Banks impression. We don't have to do this,
Lisa Grock Oopsie used to ask about the replies. But
Lisa takes you meaning the big talk about South Africa. Yeah,
do white genocide Takabucho controversial. I'm sorry, I can't turn

(03:48:20):
the rest.

Speaker 2 (03:48:21):
It's not even good Jar Jar, I'm sorry, and he
speaks Spanish. I think it's chucking all the racial stereotype.

Speaker 6 (03:48:29):
What are we.

Speaker 7 (03:48:31):
They make it more racist, see white farmers getting attacked
too much, like two hundred and fourteen attacks a year,
and political words like killed four making it worse.

Speaker 2 (03:48:45):
It's too bad. I'm not getting cancer and pay for
exposure to this. It does go on for.

Speaker 9 (03:48:53):
Sentences so much more like I love how you should like.
It's fucking dubstep recorders.

Speaker 2 (03:49:00):
Cut in the song. I've never met a nice South
African right here.

Speaker 9 (03:49:03):
Yeah, I think we can. We'll just do the first first.
We just discussed it. We're fine for copyright.

Speaker 2 (03:49:11):
Yeah, yeah, I'll throw that in here. Yep.

Speaker 9 (03:49:14):
It's even got a reference to me and Mars, so
we're fine. We've covered it before. It's the central worldly song.

Speaker 7 (03:49:21):
Lisa says, no, thank.

Speaker 2 (03:49:22):
You, stop gone.

Speaker 9 (03:49:28):
So if he's giving a double thumbs down, everyone is
very upset right now, apart from Garrison, who's laughing like
a little imp. Having introduced jud Jar Binks to the goal.
Right back to the Afrikaners. The fifty nine Afrikaners who
are brought to the United States came after the United
States halted or refugee admissions. In January, thousands of people,

(03:49:52):
including Afghans who and Iraqis who work for the United States,
remained stranded.

Speaker 2 (03:49:56):
Some of them are stuck at airports.

Speaker 9 (03:49:58):
Most of them are in third country where they only
have limited visas, and they're looking at timing out their
visas in those third countries. As a direct result of
the Trump administration's fackory with the white genocide stuff, the
Episcopalian Church, not the most work of organizations, has suspended
its contracts its resettlement contracts with the government.

Speaker 7 (03:50:17):
Criticals support, Yeah.

Speaker 9 (03:50:20):
I mean, I read the letter from one of their
bishops on our show about this, and like he was
very forthright, and like, I generally genuinely do have critical
support for the faith based organizations who help refugees. It's
a good thing to do, and I'm glad that they
are doing it, especially I they're not trying to like
turn into a weird missionary operation like evangelicals do.

Speaker 2 (03:50:40):
For sure.

Speaker 9 (03:50:41):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, what's it called the fucking Glenn Beck.
One doesn't it's not a resettlement agency. Luckily so in Worcester, Massachusetts,
a place that I didn't know there was a Worcester
in America. Actually this is oh yeah, So how is
it then that as a nation, Americans are incapable of
saying Worcestershire.

Speaker 7 (03:51:00):
Oh boy, yeah, because that's just one state and it's
not a good one. Also, that's the sauce, right.

Speaker 2 (03:51:06):
It's also the place I was born Garrison. Oh well, yeah, Worcestershire.
For those who are you wondering there it is people,
Yeah again I do.

Speaker 7 (03:51:16):
We do have to call it Worster because that's what
it's called in this country.

Speaker 4 (03:51:18):
Hmm.

Speaker 11 (03:51:19):
I care a lot about accurate pronunciations of places and names.

Speaker 7 (03:51:23):
So it is Worcester.

Speaker 9 (03:51:25):
Worcester's the city in Worcestershire is the county in England too,
so you don't have the county and where you have Massachusetts,
so wester Massachusetts. I threatened to arrest a twenty one
year old woman named Augusta Clara, and they told her
that they'd have to take her three months old baby
as well, because they couldn't leave it with her seventeen

(03:51:45):
year old sister on account of the younger woman being
a minor. As it turned out, this was a ploy
to lure out her mother. Clara called her mother who
came out to take the baby, and they arrested her mother,
which was who they'd been wanting to arrest the whole time.
This arrest came the day after they had arrested the
baby's father in what Clara says was a response to

(03:52:07):
him honking his horn at an undercover ICE agent. Neighbors
tried to intervene in the scene, which resulted in the Worcester,
Massachusetts Police Department responding. The cops proceeded to body slam
seventeen year old girl, arrest her, and arrest a local
woman for what they claimed was pushing them. Locals have
been protesting since the city council has moved its meetings

(03:52:28):
online citing public safety concerns, and in another bungled raid
in the same state, ICE agents left a twelve year
old child alone on the sidewalk and drove their vehicle
aggressively towards a city councilor who was trying to document
a situation. Meanwhile, in Florida, DeSantis has sworn in one
hundred Florida Highway Patrol deputies as special US Marshals, and

(03:52:52):
their claiming this allows them to conduct immigration enforcement operations
of their own outside of cooperation with ICE or CVP
that adds to the two thousand ATF and DA agents.
A tramp administration has requested to join ICE teams. So
when you're watching videos, sometimes you'll see when there are
these like ICE snatch squads right there are ATF agents

(03:53:14):
with them, and what they're generally there to do is
like to secure, to provide like additional security on the
team while the ICE agents do the actual apprehensions. DeSantis
has also offered quote new detention facilities. I haven't seen
much reporting on this, but in the same statement on
his website where he talked about cross swearing the highway
patrol guys, he also talked about these quote new detention facilities,

(03:53:39):
and I want to take this opportunity to reflect on
the existing detention facilities in Florida because they are the
worst in a system of horrific detention facilities. The ACLU
has documented quote persistent emotional, physical, and sexual abuse at
the hands of staff for these facilities. Detainees reportedly being
punished simply seeking medical care, be denied medical attention just

(03:54:01):
by having preexistinct conditions. The report also found ample evidence
of gendered and racialized mistreatment the Chrome Detention Center that's
krom Is in particular horrific migrants there, in one instance
were held in chains on buses for sixteen hours and

(03:54:21):
told to use the bathroom where they were sitting on
the buses. A migrant named a sudi as A hell
Vasquez Martinez somehow kept his phone inside the Chrome Detention
Center and was able to live stream or at least
post videos showed horrific overcrowding. Some sources claim there were

(03:54:43):
as many as four thousand people in the detention center,
which has a capacity of five hundred and two people
that we know of have died there since January.

Speaker 2 (03:54:52):
Florida looking to add more detention centers. Not great, It's
about all I got.

Speaker 9 (03:54:57):
Garrison talk to us about Project Homecoming. Who's coming home?

Speaker 11 (03:55:01):
Yeah, And again we will actually close on some good news.
So it's not all horrible stuff this entire time. But
we do need to mention Project Homecoming. So this was
a proclamation issued by Trump on May ninth, entitled establishing
Project Homecoming, which aims to curb a quote unquote full
scale invasion. It claims to devote more federal resources to

(03:55:24):
assist self deportation via the CBP Home app including paying
for flights for those who are quote voluntarily and permanently
departing the United States unquote, which says, quote the Secretary
of State and Secretary of Homeland Security shall create a
concierge service whereby any alien illegally present in the United States,
it may arrive at an airport with or without appropriate

(03:55:47):
travel documents book air travel to permanently relocate to a
different country. So they are really strengthening these self deportation mechanisms.
Section two promises to provide financial incers in the form
of a quote unquote exit bonus for each illegal alien
who voluntarily and permanently departs the United States.

Speaker 2 (03:56:07):
Yeah, so a couple of really weird things. They're just
off the bat. Yes, age like permanently departs.

Speaker 9 (03:56:12):
It seems to suggest that you would be permanently barred
from ever entering the United States acquiring a visa.

Speaker 2 (03:56:17):
Again.

Speaker 9 (03:56:18):
Secondly, if you don't have travel documents, the country that
you're traveling to or through has no reason to admit you.
Right that, the US government cannot force other countries to
admit people without travel documents. There are things called refugee
travel documents which allow people who have had their passports,
et cetera stolen to travel.

Speaker 2 (03:56:37):
I don't think that's what's gonna happen here.

Speaker 11 (03:56:40):
Yeah, it does mention something about trying to negotiate with
other countries to allow people without documentation to arrive there,
but like, well they actually do that probably not like
they've claimed to not have to need to do that before,
So like, yeah, that's not like a solid promise. Now
those who choose to remain will face quote sweeping consequences
including removal, prosecution, incarceration, and finds as consistent with applicable

(03:57:04):
law for immigration related crimes, the garnishment of wages, and
the confiscations of savings and personal property, including homes and
vehicles unquote, So they're threatening to steal all of your things.
This proclamation follows this like propaganda video shared by Christino
and the Department of Homeland Security. This video was released
a few weeks ago, and it contains some similar rhetoric

(03:57:26):
regarding self deportation and fines being imposed for those who
stay in the country.

Speaker 14 (03:57:31):
An illegal alien from Guatemala charged with raping a child
in Massachusetts. An MS thirteen gang member from Al Salvador
accused of murdering a Texas man of Venezuelan charged with
filming and selling child pornography in Michigan. These are just
some of the heinous migrant criminals caught because of President

(03:57:51):
Donald J. Trump's leadership. I'm Christinom, the United States Secretary
of Homeland Security. Under President Trump, attempted illegal border crossings
are at the lowest levels ever recorded, and over one
hundred thousand illegal aliens have been arrested. If you are
here illegally, your next you will be fine nearly one

(03:58:12):
thousand dollars a day. Imprisoned and deported, you will never return.
But if you register using our CBP home app and
leave now, you could be allowed to return legally. Do
what's right. Leave now under President Trump America's laws order
and families will be protected.

Speaker 2 (03:58:31):
The whole style of this video is very bizarre. Yeah,
it's like a Marvel trailer.

Speaker 11 (03:58:37):
It's like a Marvel trailer with like the setex of
like mid two thousands, like dystopian sci fi.

Speaker 6 (03:58:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 11 (03:58:43):
Again, the end of that video, she talks about being
able to return legally, which is in contrast to the
language in a Project Homecoming, which says that people would
be leaving the United States permanently. Finally, the proclamation directs
the Secretary of Home and Security to within sixty days,
supplement existing law enforcement and removal operations by deputizing and
contracting state and local police, former Feds, and quote other individuals,

(03:59:07):
to increase the enforcement and removal operations force of the
Department of Homeland Security by no less than twenty thousand
officers in order to conduct an intensive campaign to remove
illegal aliens unquote. And now, as of this morning, May fifteenth,
the DHS has requested to mobilize over twenty thousand National
Guard troops from the Department of Defense to comply with

(03:59:28):
Trump's order to expand its immigration crackdown. And on Wednesday,
the FBI ordered agents to deprioritize white collar crime investigations
for the remainder of twenty twenty five to instead focus
on immigration enforcement. Field offices notified their agents that now
one third of their time must go towards assisting Trump's
immigration policies.

Speaker 7 (03:59:49):
I'm going to quote from Reuter's quote. The orders came
on the same day that Matthew Gaiiatti, the head of
the Justice Department's Criminal Division, issued new guidance to prosecutors
that scales back this the scope of white collar cases
historically pursued by the Department, and orders prosecutors to quote
minimize the length and collateral impact of such investigations.

Speaker 2 (04:00:09):
Jeez.

Speaker 11 (04:00:11):
Again, the most corrupt administration ever ever before seen. Yeah,
and now for the good news to close the episode.
The Tuft's university student was may Oz Turk, who was
black bagged on the streets of Massachusetts for co authoring
a pro Palestine op ed, has been released on bail
as of May ninth, after spending six weeks in ICED attention.

(04:00:31):
The judge said that missus Ostrich's claims of her First
Amendment and Due process rights being violated are quote unquote
very substantial. And then on Wednesday, May fourteenth, the Georgetown
University researcher from India named Batar Khan Suri was released
from immigration detention as he continues to fight two deportation
cases brought against him by the Trump administration for his

(04:00:52):
support of Palestine. So this is now the third or
fourth person that has been released from ICE custody following
like political prosecutions based.

Speaker 2 (04:01:02):
On their activism. Yeah, that's a good thing.

Speaker 11 (04:01:05):
Now, these cases are still going to be continuing in courts.
But the fact that these people have been released from
ICE attention is good news.

Speaker 9 (04:01:13):
And in most cases they were released on their own recognizance,
right without GPS tagging or any like.

Speaker 11 (04:01:18):
Yeah, they're freedom move throughout the country because most of
them have cases in like multiple states. ICE is trying
to move them around to many different locations. And I
know that Surrey and ost Turk are able to go
back to their homes.

Speaker 9 (04:01:32):
Yeah, So like it's good. It shows that the courts
are still able to stop some of this stuff at
this time.

Speaker 2 (04:01:37):
Yes, and that the actual ability of a lawyer to
intervene when you were treated illegally by the state is
not nil yeah yet.

Speaker 7 (04:01:46):
Yeah, Yeah, good point, positive developments here.

Speaker 11 (04:01:49):
But like, yeah, as we'll see with with Miller's goal
of getting rid of habeas corpus and accelerating law enforcement
operations with these twenty thousand new National Guard troops. This
is this is something that's still going to be a
very a very hot issue for quite a while, and
we will continue to report on it as it develops.

Speaker 2 (04:02:08):
Well everybody, until next time. Remember something WESA reported to news.
We reported the news. Hey, we'll be back Monday with
more episodes every week from now until the heat death

(04:02:29):
of the universe.

Speaker 1 (04:02:30):
It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
coolzonmedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

Speaker 7 (04:02:41):
You listen to podcasts.

Speaker 1 (04:02:43):
You can now find sources for It could Happen Here
listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.

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