Part One: Roundtable on the Future of Terrorism

Garrison sits down with a handful of researchers that study far right extremism to discuss how climate change will impact fascist terrorism.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:02):
Greetings and welcome to It could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis.
I am a researcher and writer on the podcast team.
Today we have a roundtable discussion with a group of
researchers who look into extremism and political political violence that
usually stemming from far right propagandists and people on that

(00:23):
kind of whole sphere. So we have a discussion relating
to climate change and all these other things. So that
I was able to record these fine people. It's split
up into two sections, so part one is coming out today,
Part two is coming out to tomorrow. Highly recommend you
listen to both, maybe maybe even back to back at
some point because it does really give a nice rounded

(00:44):
out um view of what we were talking about. So,
without further ado, here is my discussion with I kind
of know, well, not not a dozen, but of a
lot a large amount of terrorism researchers. As we are
all uh in the woods. As you will soon find out,

(01:06):
Welcome to it can happened here The Daily Show. I
am Garrison Davis, and I am recording in an undisclosed
location in the woods. Um. We are me and a
few a few internet colleagues are all hiding from the
world for a week to reset our poisoned brains. But
I'm gonna slightly re poison us here for about an

(01:26):
hour to have a discussion about climate change and terrorism,
because all we have a group of people here who
are all well research the bad thing online a lot.
So I'm going to try to try to use to
take advantage of having this uh unique group of people
all in one location to have this nice discussion for

(01:48):
you guys. But yeah, specifically we want to we want
to talk about how we how each of us has
an you know, quote unquote expert in certain fields. Um
see climate change impacting, imply acting extremism and terrorism in
the next in the next few decades. Um. And yes,
we are recording in the forest, So if you hear
sounds like we're in the forest, that's because we are. Um.

(02:10):
You you guys already know me, or you probably do.
But I'm gonna We're gonna go around a circle, probably
starting on my left, um, introducing the people, and yeah,
just give a brief a brief brief bio, however detail
do you want to get into. My name's Matt Taylor.
I'm a journalist and researcher focusing on cults, um, conspiracy

(02:30):
theories and extremism. And to day is my birthday, Happy Birthday, Matt.
In the in the past, my name's THEO. I am
a journalist and researcher as well. I mostly focused on
the American militia movement and paramilitary groups. I'm toothpick Um
with THEO, Matt Emmy and Big New Houses. Isn't here

(02:55):
on terrorism? Bat that's that's a that's a podcast, by
the way, self plug um. My research and reporting focuses
on mainly on conspiracy theories and where that overlaps with
political extremism and the focus on connections between US in Europe,

(03:15):
especially Germany. I'm Peter Smith. I'm a journalist with the
Canadian Anti Hate Network and the host of the Unusual
Show podcast. I'm Lily and I focus on extermism and
kind of terrorism and data analysis. And I'm Emmy. I

(03:36):
do digital propaganda and rhetoric. That that that is our
little crew. Um. Yeah, let's see what the first thing
we kind of want to talk about, I'm guessing is
how we see like small because like the podcast is
more about like smaller local collapses, like we don't there's

(03:57):
not gonna be one big class. Where is the small
thing to start to fall apart? And how we see
when small things all apart, what we do we see
filling in those gaps. Specifically, I think this will tie
into the militia movement a lot in a lot of ways. UM.
So yeah, you guys can start sprouting off your your knowledge. Yeah.
So one of the things that I've been thinking of

(04:17):
and following it. I don't know if this has made
as much of an impact in US media. UM, but
in the last month UM, parts of Germany and the
Netherlands experienced UM, really bad flooding UM that that literally
wiped out some villages in some towns. UM. And one

(04:38):
of the things that we've seen in Germany is you know,
far right groups. UM. There isn't really a militia movement
because it all laws there, but but far right groups
rushing in UM and collecting aid and going for photo
ops UH in those catastrophe areas. UM. And what that
does make me think of and maybe THEO can talk

(04:58):
more about this. Eyes we've seen smilar stuff in the
US with the militia moving marking themselves as you know,
emergency preparedness UM or marking them selves in that way
and positioning themselves where when you know the government is
unable to respond, that these groups are able to come
in UM and also using that for their messaging and

(05:20):
for their rhetoric. Yeah. So, I mean that is something
that you see in the US. The biggest example Garrison
and I talked about this earlier, but during the wildfires
in Oregon last year, you saw checkpoints being established by
militia groups, whether are already formed militia groups are kind
of impromptu armed bands, And you also see that as

(05:43):
like a big marketing thing. I know a lot of
the Virginia based militias that I follow went out to
Tennessee two one or two years ago when the tornadoes happened. Yeah,
they did a bunch of kind of aid and photo ops. Yeah. So,

(06:04):
just not to docks myself, but I'm from Nashville. And then, uh,
the beginning of in March, right before you own, someone
just dropped a toy gun. Great job, guys. Yeah. So
in the beginning of March of last year, right before
COVID hit Nashville, we had a huge tornado go through
Nashville itself and wipe out like two different neighborhoods and

(06:27):
then a rural town right outside of Nashville. But you
saw a lot of like so the community that comes
together in this really nice display of mutual aid to
do all the clean up basically before any official cruise
could get there. But with that you also sell like
these far right groups coming in for photo ops and
it just it normalizes their presence in heavily impacted areas

(06:48):
and it was not not ideal. Yeah, a lot of
the American militia movement, especially the modern kind of post
two thous strain of it, is dedicated on this idea
of a complete breakdown of order or a loss of
civil order, however you conceive of that. And um, these

(07:10):
like climate disasters that are going to hit areas are
going to kind of provide a self fulfilling prophecy for
these people to step in and say like, oh no,
you need some sort of armed force, You need some
sort of group of people to keep order and to
keep law in whatever way they conceive of that. Do
think it's interesting you guys talking about kind of like
the photo op thing that they do, Because when the

(07:30):
wildfire has happened in Oregon, all of the actual like
relief work was done by anti fascists, like we like
people in Portland, we set up, you know, these these
massive camps to help we know all these like you know,
much more conservative people who who have who are to
that wait their back to their homes and they were
all getting fed and all like their closes that were
coming from anti fascists and the all the right did

(07:50):
was do the arm checkpoints thing. But interesting that like
in the South where there's less anti fascists, like you know,
compared to the generals, compared to the Portland right, how
some of those groups actually you do some of the
relief effort um and that that's definitely not the case
up here in the in the West coast. Oh yeah,
I mean last year, I remember a few county level
militias that I follow in Virginia. We're like seriously doing

(08:15):
relief work, like they were gathering food, they were taking
out places affected by flooding in North Carolina, but tornadoes
and Tennessee. It's not I wouldn't go so far as
to call it mutual aid because it lacks the kind
of ideological framework for that. But they are providing some
sort of infrastructure for their guys. Yeah, yeah, with yeah,
with with less of like the theory side of mutually.

(08:37):
But like, and I'm sure there's someone else who can
speak more on this, but like from my perspective growing
up in a super weird church, I see this in interacting,
they see this like combining with local churches a lot
as well. Um, I'm not sure there's anyone else here
who could say something more intelligently than me about how
like religion will combine with these like kind of militia efforts. Well,

(09:00):
I was like eco eco extremists, like on the far right,
on the very very fringe far right, can start to
like be very esoteric about there, you know, belief in
climate change, and they start to sort of frame it
as like a reason for the collapse, Um, that we

(09:22):
need collapse, are attacking infrastructure, like for the purpose of
somehow save in the planet, even though it's really not
going to get that anywhere. We really need to we
have to do with a lot of our own work
on the planet. We can't just destroy everything and see
if it working. Yeah, we can definitely bring up accelerationists

(09:43):
and accelerationism as a as an over overarching thing that
is you know, not just it not to be like
horseshoe theory about it, but the accelation is that pops
up a whole whole lot of areas, including areas of
the left, where it becomes very unuseful, um and it
can lead to like a lot of wasted time and
some destructive tendencies. I mean, I think that point kind

(10:05):
of also provides an interesting through line between more mainstream
militias and like the really esoteric brands of eco fascism
or ecologically based extremism is that like they're both very
influenced by like colonial schools of thought, like eco fascism
and all that is kind of predicated on this idea

(10:26):
of like Tera Noli's like there is this perfect empty
wild land that we can have manifest destiny exactly, and
like so much of the ideas of order and um
like peacekeeping that you find within more mainstream militia movements
come from this exact same type of thinking, where it's
like a colonial order that you need to keep. Yeah,

(10:47):
I know, there's a lot of a lot of people
on the left who are in like the kind of
like you know, green green, like like eCos socialist or
like green anarchists kind of strange, so get very frustrated
when people talk about eco fascism, which I can understand
because no one really means the same thing when they
talk about it. Sometimes they just mean any like any
like quote unquote terrorism that has like has like an

(11:11):
environmental purpose. Some people, you know, when they think of
eco fascists, we think of like overpopulation. Um. You know,
there's a lot of different things they mean mean by it.
But I know, we we've all had talks about like
what we personally view as like eco fascism, because it's's
it's it's not just eco streamism, Like eco streamism does
not equal fascism. Like there is there's a whole bunch
of eco extremists who are very anti fascist. Um. And

(11:32):
there is some who kind of bridge bridge the gap,
you know, like like like id S has some more
fascist tendencies, But I would not accurately call them fascist
based on the type of stuff they do, with type
of writing they do, they do not have, they do
not check all of the boxes. Um. But then then
we do have people who I would accurately describe as
eco fascists who have done who've done you know, mass shootings,

(11:52):
who have a lot of eco who have eco fascist stuff,
either in the writing that they like or their own manifestos.
They bring up enough points it's like, yeah, you kind
of fall into this broad category. Does someone here want

(12:14):
to give their personal definition of ego fascism? This isn't
this not necessarily exactly what we used for the pod,
But I just I'm interested to here's a lot of
people with various backgrounds. Everyone has their own specialized knowledge.
What kind of when people say that, what, what do
you kind of put into that category? People believe in
like this organic law and like natural order, and they
believe that like there is a natural hierarchy ingrained in everything.

(12:38):
And I think that generally, like if we return to
like some kind of primitive society or like, you know,
they'll assume that like everything has uh, it's own structure,
and that there's going to be people who rise to

(12:58):
the top, people who just you know, uh don't belong
in that kind of society. It's going to be really
damaging for like the elderly, for disabled people, And they
just sort of see it as like survival of the
fist um. And I think that's like a much more
eco fascist point of view rather than like a more

(13:19):
green anarchist point of view where things would sort of
even out, um, rather than become a hierarchical Yeah. Yeah,
I think hierarchy is an important part of that. And
how we you know, there is like a lot of
green anarchist who are focusing on like making their own
medication for for you know, people with diabetes and stuff.
That's kind of stuff that is like really interesting to
look at and stuff that we should absolutely pursue because

(13:39):
we'll become less reliance to apply chains. And we don't
really see eco fascists doing that. We do not see
them focusing on making medication for people. Oh no, maybe
I can kind of set some people up to say
more stuff if I say this is is real quickly. But
one of the things that I always or that that
is a red flag for me is is just you know,
bring in this very traditional discussions of gender roles and

(14:03):
and relating that to the environment. Yeah, our rhetoric, I mean,
I don't we don't need to say names of specific
like writers are people, but there's definitely describe the general sure, yeah,
stop playing with the toy gun. Oh my god. Um,
just just like establishing and it is kind of it

(14:26):
can be kind of like an older left thing too,
but establishing you know, ecological discussions within framework of traditional
gender roles um and kind of like what is expected
of people based on their sex. Yeah, this is this
is this is the dark side of cottage core. Yes,

(14:47):
that's one way to put it. I mean you want
to get in here, oh boy, yeah, I like parts
of cottage courts not want intersects with a certain strain
of politics, Like queer cottage core is extremely cute, sure
until yeah, well until you're not queer, and listen, you know,

(15:08):
sometimes they still are. Now here's the thing. When we're
when we're dealing with like traditional gender role stuff, it's
a really like slippery slope into more aggressive strains of thought.
So when we're when we're talking about the the idea
of of the class, we will podcast it's mass birthday.

(15:38):
You asked to apologize, Yeah, ripped to the editor. I
wouldn't know what that's so good. So when they're talking
about the claps and they want, you know, they think
the rod of modernity will be gone, society will be ended.
They can they can you know, rebuilt from the ground up,
smaller communities and Uh, they can. They can build the

(16:01):
society they want, which is largely a no nationalists. It's
not great. The the idea that there will be this
this super traditional family structure. You're going to have your
this combined strong warrior also homesteading man and your cool
trad wife who never ages above thirty in this society.

(16:22):
Like I'm being generous here, assuming that at least like
some of these people have a little bit of like
pre planning. But they don't. They don't um, and they
step on each other a lot, right because they have

(16:42):
this this whole plan for this uh, this society free
of industry, um, and they can't stop posting about it
on the internet. It's really funny, right, Like they're not
they're not good at it. Yeah, they're like way too
addicted to posting to like actually commit to like the
true no off the grid trad life. At least at

(17:02):
least ten K was off the grid. We don't gotta
hand it to you. Go ahead, We don't gotta hand
it to it. You got ahead to you undergo circumstances
and got a hit. Todd is divided on how much
we gotta hand it to, said K. The official stands
of terrorism bad? Is the terrorism is bad? Why don't
we just bring them on? It is kind of a
concern when they do end up when they stop posting.

(17:24):
I mean, it's a concert when they're posting, but it's
kind of more concerning posted sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, it's the
same as like looking at a kid that wants to
be a firefighter or something like they're just talking. They're
not going to do it, but you see some of
the I'm doing and when they're doing the thing, the
lifestyle influencer version of fascism. Yeah, do you think that

(17:45):
it's going to affect kind of like laws about living
off grid and laws about like for for normal people.
I just want to get the funk out. I actually
just read something about this. There's some guy who've been
living off grid in pennsylvani for like thirty years and
I don't remember the details of this, and we don't
have internet out here. Burn house down. Yeah, he's in

(18:08):
jail now. He's probably gonna be in jail for the
rest of his life. And I think part of whether
it comes from left through the right as people kind
of start to try to build resiliency within communities for
disasters that are coming and start to seek ways of
living that do not rely on supply chains and do
not rely on the state. The state will strike back
against that as a consolidation of power, because the more

(18:30):
that people move away from it, whether on the left
or right, the less power the state has. I mean,
and utilizing counter terrorism an excuse to do so, Yeah,
because they're giving reasons and it's not it's not going
to get enforced equally. I'm sure that's gonna gonna focus
uncertain people doing this and be slightly more okay with
other people doing it. Yeah, what's so? I would like

(18:55):
to talk about Canada a little bit because specifically climate
change affecting Canada's can be varied. It's going to be
slightly different, and most of it can go to the States,
because I mean, I've been, I've been, I've been having
my my waist deep in climate science books for most
of UM, and Canada's gonna probably see economic boosts UM,

(19:16):
and they're probably the state's probably just gonna get actually
stronger because of how the same thing with Russia. Both
Canada and Russia are going to get more economically powerful
under climate change because of how much more props are
gonna get moved up. How give me your thoughts to Canada,
because in canada's my backup plan. It's gonna gets too
spicy in the States, I'm I'm taking my Canadian passport
and hiding in the woods. Um. How how it's it's

(19:41):
interesting to hear you guys talk about American mellistic culture
because we we definitely are rhetoric and propaganda that we
see in Canada gets borrowed a lot the talking points
from the States, like the concepts. But what we don't
have are these strong organized militia groups. We had three
per centers for a while, um and who still exists,
but they were they were big about being off right

(20:04):
like they were the ones who weren't posting for a
long time. UM. And it seems like as much as
all these people are still around, they've largely deflated, doubt
because Canada has made some some efforts to call them
terrorists right right. Very recently we designated them as a
terrorist organization, which doesn't carry a criminal charge. But if
you if you do something involved with them, you send

(20:27):
the money like there is there are consequences of that
legal enhancements, um. But are are kind of militia culture
focuses on the illegitimacy of the state that Canada is founded.
It's very kind of soft sit type rhetoric. But that
Canada's established, minutes, it's rules, and especially with all the

(20:48):
public health measures, it's this growing, uh, this growing kind
of tired of thought in both the prairies and largely
out west. I grew up a statute. Um, most of

(21:12):
my families in Alberta. I know when when I look
at when I because I keep a soft eye on
some Canadian hate groups just because I'm Canadian. Most of
them popped up around Alberta. Um, where do you see
this stuff kind of like happening, Like do you see
any of this on the East coast? If so, is
it's smaller or is this mostly on like a West
coast Canada thing. Well, that like that conspiratory thought we've
seen kind of across the country, like on the East coast.

(21:33):
You know, just recently we had people setting up their
own version of checkpoints um as like a protest against
the the public health measures, and like the whole eastern
part of Canada is in its own bubble right now. Um.
But yeah, you had this conspiracy based movement forming these

(21:54):
actual checkpoints. And then the main part of it though,
is probably going to be out west. That is where
these ideas are the most popular or the most popular.
That makes sense where mainstream politicians are moving towards, you know,
amplify these types of talking points. Do you see that
like is that is? Is that a mostly Alberta thing?

(22:15):
It's the mostly like prairies Alberta, the farmland. The interesting
part is that when you talk about groups is like Canada,
groups are an urban phenomenon. For the most part, most
of our organization takes place around the city centers, and
that is very different from the States. With the States,
that's it's usually the usually the opposite in some there's

(22:36):
there's always exceptions of too minimum people live, but generally
we see it as more of it's more of a
rule thing which teams organized, whereas cities are more like
liberal and that's what the anti fascist groups are based. Um.
But it's kind of these like these little ideological pockets
that exist all over and certainly that sentiment is probably shared,
but the need to mobilize seems to mostly focus on

(22:57):
the urban centers. And then we never have our group.
They don't providing any kind of age that's just or
even checkpoints like that's beyond these like very recent protest movements,
you know, and there has been no more forest fires
around BC, um, around you know what Western Alberta. Um.
How do you see the government's response these types of

(23:19):
things right now? And it can do is in a
particular situation with um, the Liberals having a minority control.
You know, the Canadian poet parliamentary system is probably confusing
to love of Americans that they don't understand it already. UM.
But yeah, how how what do you what do you
see on on that front? You know, you know, trust
and true both look both true down Biden talk the
talk around like pipelines and stuff, and then do the

(23:40):
complete opposite. Um, how do you could have seen this
kind of stuff working right now? For for like on
the on the climate side of things, Well, yeah, our
our reaction to the firefighters or started reaction to the wildfires. Um.
I mean the government response has always looked out on
like it's always looked at poorly. UM. But none of
these people are taking this as an opportunity to kind
of change minds, kind of do pr um. There's much

(24:03):
less reaction to it. Most like the West. Also there's
this incredible feeling of alienation because of the way that
government is set up. They have substantially less or they
have substantially less voting power. Yeah, the same way in
the States, how you know, there's like there's acceling states
or states in the Midwest, you feel like they don't
really have any power politically. The same things for almost

(24:24):
the entire East, entire West Coast of Canada, everything from
like Manitoba to Alberta and parts of BC. Everyone is
very frustrated at at at the at the federal e's
um and how they really don't have control for what's happening. Like, yeah,
people in the East Coast are controlling and what what
our what our pipelines are, what our minds are doing,

(24:44):
and that does not fair to our workers, because yeah
it is. It does suck when you know, a mind
closes and then everyone in a small town is out
of business, like the part the part right in Canada,
almost Stanley around them, you know, used to be you know,
bustling small towns that are basically all all men ghost
towns be because stuff to close, people have to move
to either like Calgary, Edmonton, Regina, don't laugh. Um, So

(25:07):
you know all these specific things, you know, and we
see pockets, we see pockets, we see pockets of this
and like the good Western the States definitely also is
like manifest destination because like they are a lot of
it started with people kind of moving outward to try
and gain more land and make their borders um larger

(25:32):
and like live further out to like try and uh,
I don't know, I'll take me more territory. Um. And
with the like Canadian big surgeon like indigenous rights and
the big focus and shift to like sort of give
them land back or something. I'm not exactly clear on
what the Canadian stances are on that. Oh, just like

(25:54):
I mean we have a big movement from indigenous populations
to they seem very like the economic like well, there's
so many different bands and tribes in different types of nations, um,
like we have unseated territory, and the dynamics with which
the government is supposed to deal with and has agreed
to deal with and actually does deal with them is
all vastly different. Um. But yeah, that that idea of

(26:16):
this focus on these particular issues, like indigenous issues, even
our attempts to you know, have a greener economy, you
know for a place that for a long time and
still is an extraction economy. Yes, Um, how does that
like a fact the oil company with healthcare more like
extremist far right groups who want to move out that way, um,

(26:39):
for the purpose of organizing. And you also have the
indigenous focus within the liberal government. So like, how do
those two groups do you think like interact? Uh? Like,
the general conception is that the push for indigenous rights,
especially on the farther right, is is for the dishent
franchifisement of white Europeans like it is um. And then yeah,

(27:05):
you do have this Western exodus where we have very
popular figures who are moving further west because they're these
stronger ideas of sovereignty. Um. I forget what exactly was pulling,
but when the Western exit or exit started, you know,
there was a significant amount of popular or at least

(27:25):
like not strong support, but like existing support there was
there was there was a there was a large amount
of support. Yeah. Absolutely, It'll be interesting to see what
happens though. Talking about collapse, like you know in these
small towns, in like cloistered communities, um, you know, they
already feel cut off from the government and not represented,
and then do you have a breakdown of infrastructure you know,

(27:47):
that will create why do we even happen in the
first place if they're not helping us? Which is which
which is true, which is like a well real thing
to think about. But their solutions are wildly different than
the actual solutions to help people. Right. How this plays
out in the past as well with UM, you know,
places where uh, the infrastructure starts to break down and
then people who have weapons kind of become the authority

(28:13):
just based on the fact that they have more power. Yeah.
So one of the things that I follow is a
lot of kind of like the more let's characterize it
as boomer esque conspiracy theories UM, especially with anti vax,
anti public health measures type thing UM. And one of

(28:34):
the things that that that really is noticeable to me
is how much more sovereign citizen stuff is creeping up
into those areas UM and especially you know, they're they're
two really big examples of you know, if there's an
anti vax protest in your city, it's probably one of
these two networks that both come from Europe UM that

(28:57):
I'm not going to name right now, UM and those
two networks also, you know, love to organize over the
messaging app Telegram, UM, and Telegram is tell me if
I'm stepping in it. I mean, Telegram is where you know,
so much of this ideology, this far right ideology is
able to cross mix and co mingle um. You know,

(29:18):
I we talked about Telegram in the pod. Okay, but
people are familiar, Yeah, stepped in it, yet keep going
yeah adjacent to yeah. So so I mean, my, my,
the biggest frame we're going to talk about this a
lot is is Telegram as kind of this technological body
of the cultic milieu because there is so like basically

(29:40):
no enforcement close to no enforcement on Telegram and so
you know, these these more malicious actors know that, and
they know that they can find an audience who is
interested in, you know, opposing the mainstream conspiratorial thought in
these kind of like boomer tell boomers on Telegram and
conspiracy groups and there are you know, milicitious actors plan

(30:00):
to go in and when these people over and you
know a lot of these molious actors are younger people
who don't have those resources, but they know that they
can win over these people who do have resources who
only and who have savings to kind of like fund
that movement if yeah, oh, I was just gonna say,
I do think that the cultic milliuse like a really
important heuristic for these kind of collapse scenarios, because the

(30:23):
question of what happens when kind of infrastructure and any
sort of political guidance falls away is governed a lot
by that, and like this idea that there's there are
these ideas flowing around in our society and once people
have nothing else turned to, these malicious actors will bring
this stuff in and uh yeah, to put it simply,

(30:43):
then we're pretty fucked. Yeah. Telegram also has recently started
to have to crack down people and um because of that,
you have this really interesting dichotomy of people who are saying,
like this means like get ready, get prepared, go off
grig guns, and you also on the other end people
who are saying, you know, create all tech platforms and

(31:03):
like create um more like self encryption and like, hello,
I'm trying not to step in right now. Yeah, yeah,
I'm but to be able to uh to speak more
peer like peer to peer resources. And that wraps up

(31:24):
part one of the Terrorism round Table discussion Thanks so
much for listening. You can find us at happen Here
pod and cool Zone Media on all of the socials UM.
You can find me at Hungry bow Tie UM, and
you can follow a decent amount of the researchers on
their podcast at Terrorism Bad, the podcast I Think I

(31:45):
Think It's just at Terrorism Bad anyway. Thanks for listening
to Part one, Part two drops tomorrow. Stay tuned. It
Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
Well more podcasts from Zone Media. Visit our website cool
zone media dot com, or check us out on the
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(32:06):
to podcasts. You can find sources for It could Happen Here,
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Thanks for listening.