September 16, 2021 • 41 mins
The second part of our discussion in the woods about the intersection of climate change, accelerationism, and the rise of nationalistic far right violence.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This
is part two of our terrorism Roundtable discussion. If you
haven't listened to part one already, I would recommend you
scroll back, listen to the previous episode and then continue
on from here so you have kind of context to
what exactly we're talking about. Anyway, this is part two
of our discussion in the Woods. I hope you enjoy.
(00:27):
Something that we've talked about earlier this year after January six,
was like should the government ban telegram? Right? That was
the thing And there's a lot of a lot of
arguments are like no, absolutely not, and there's does it?
Does anyone want to speak on that? Because you know,
because like if I want to talk about the government's
response to these things, you know, that's a very government
thing to do. Be like, oh, people are organized on
(00:48):
this platform, get out of the platform. Problem gone, you know,
and that's not how that works. You want us talking
that a little bit? Sure? Um? Yeah, so there, Yeah,
getting rid of the platform? Doesn't that necessarily help, especially
when it's something that is important, such as like you know,
encrypted communication, which is something that more people than just
Nazis need. Um And that resource should not be cut off.
(01:11):
And there's also kind of a bad precedent to be
set if the if the government is deciding which uh
forms of speech it needs to have complete access to.
I don't love that. Um. The other thing is that
if we knew telegram, right, they don't disappear, they formed
that networks there just harder to hard. People are absolutely
(01:37):
correct when they say D platforming works because it works
for the platform and a lot of people just want that.
A lot of people just don't want to see Nazi
ship and they're fine with you know, D platform and
they say this works, and they have data to backup
that it does work. But it works for the platform.
But the people still exist, Yeah, still boosting their own
ship and when they bring up building their own all
(01:58):
tech platforms, you know works there early yeah, yeah, yeah,
and there is elements that Yeah, D platform is a
wider thing can or especially for like in person stuff,
but yeah, for your sort of the things you're mentioning, yes,
it is. It is definitely not not that cut and dry.
You know, I'm really interesting because it is kind of
this middle space between social media and just a messaging app. Yeah.
(02:21):
The thing about it too, is that anybody can look
at these you know, the public channels, so without without
saying anything in the chance, so people could be kind
of completely invisible. Nobody like nobody knows that they're there.
They're watching this stuff, and they're still getting the same messaging,
they're still getting the same dates for protests, they're still
like organizing. But they can be uh, sort of just
(02:43):
subscribe to a channel and you don't even need to
be subscribed. You can, yeah, just looking into it and
getting that flow of information without ever having like formal organizing,
so to speak. And so it's really hard to say that, like,
you know, these people planned this because there's a lot
of claus bolts and ability and involved. There's so much
(03:04):
easy hyber linking between groups and channels and everything. So
it's so easy for someone to move between ideology and
to go from kind of like the base level ship
and to be much deeper stuff extremely quick, very quick. Yeah,
actually quick. Well that's like that's good and that's good
for them. About telegram is that you have all of
(03:24):
the people that are vulnerable to let's say, new ideas
in one place exactly if you're trying to plan a collapse,
you're gonna need a lot more people than the numbers
that the people who want the collapse actually have. So
the easiest way to kind of move things along is
to sert inserting their ideas and their discourses and kind
(03:45):
of altering the vibe of certain digital environments manually until
they have um, what we can kindly call cannon fodder. Yeah,
or even starting their own and saying like, you know,
this is a maga platform and it's actually just you know,
went some bunch of accelerationists too made it, and they
(04:06):
made it to recruit them because he saw attempts of
this with like Q and on its people who are
way more slavation is trying to use people's extreme It
was successful and they did it and people died. Well
you're I mean that. And then also you've got like
like the idea of the boogaloo right that's being co
opted to try to appeal to leftists, and I mean
(04:27):
there's a really good article by Left Coast Right Watch
that goes into one of those chats and they're basically like, yeah,
I really try to push these ideas of really try
to push talking points like black lives matter and all
of us who want to get these protesters on our side.
And then you also have um, some blatant like white
supremacist groups who are all using the boogaloo, and how
much of that too is like how much that is
(04:50):
sort of real genuine like I am not racist, I
believe in black lives matter, like I want to be
part of this even though or like much of it
also is um kind of reminiscent of what we were
talking about or how about my stuff in it? But
like with you know, the idea of from Anson of
like Healter Skelter and like causing that race where it's
(05:11):
like they what they would do is like try and
frame black people for it and say like this was
you know yeah, yeah, I mean, and how much of
it is saying like this is black lives matter and
they want people to see that after they do. The
Googleloo group that showed up in Portland in January in
July when the particular fads were happening, now that they
(05:32):
showed up and we're all like, yeah, we're here to
support black lives matter and standing against the federal government
and stuff, um, and they had some very suspicious patches
that it took me took me about a year to
figure out what they were. And it's like this accelerationist like, um,
it ties into a whole bunch of like eco fascist
propaganda stuff. Um and yeah, it's like they're they're saying
these things, well they have these very obscure patches, um
(05:55):
and yeah, this is an important reason why we need
people who are not very smart, Like I will say,
Jimmy dor who puts these gives these people platforms are
some of the worst and are going to cause a
lot of problems because they have no idea what they're
doing or they know what they're doing, and they're just bad.
And like that boogle boo thing kind of serves a
twofold purpose in that you can bring people who self
(06:18):
identify as leftists into the movement, but you also have
a really good scapegoat for like actual Actually that was
a big thing that we saw in Minneapolis when things
first popped off, and like Precinct was getting burned down
and suddenly people on the internet start losing their minds
about the umbrella guy at the and there was a
(06:40):
guy who was indicted. He was a boo boo boy
who was indicted for um like headlines said burning down
the precinct. He fired a weapon, and he fired a
gun on like near the wall exactly, and so that
at the same time takes away agency from left wing
movement and the States able to be like, look, see,
it's just it's okay that cracked down on them because
(07:01):
they're all, you know, wild white supremacists exactly, just from
any autonomous room with the forms of the people in
a community that isn't that we wouldn't necessarily refer to
his left. It's just piste off people. I mean, that's
what we saw in every single you know, everybody, the
young kids who are sucking piste off and are going
to go smash it. And it's like saying, all of
this is people from outside of the town where it's
like I know, yeah, it's a tale as old as time,
(07:24):
Like outside agitator has been used since before this. It's
a very old state talking point. Yeah, what are you
gonna say that? Um, yeah, I was gonna say. Also,
it's somewhat related to that we're talking about using like
human on his cannon fodder, and also ties into the
sab sit conversation we're having. So my research I special
are not specialized. I focus on Christian identity, this white
(07:46):
supremacist ideology, and how specifically how it's grown since the
nineties until now through like the Internet and all that
fun stuff. This whole point they've been pushing lately is
to like there this with Christian identity. The whole thing
is they are preparing for the apocalypse, which they called
the tribulations. And they see modern see I folks see
(08:10):
the boogaloo as like the tribulation that's coming. So what
they're trying to do is go off grid and really
try to like establish this new land or like to
protect their kids and everything from like pollution and all
that ship, but also to be away from the collapse
and be able to start buy it. And then while
they're doing all that, like prepping homesteads and compounds and stuff,
(08:30):
they're also like pushing like election fraud conspiracies and all
that on like Q and on and the maggot crowd
because they believe it. Not because yeah, right, they don't
believe it. They know it's bullshit, but they can use
it to accelerate collapse, just like January says, yes, so exactly.
I mean when I mean there are groups when Joe
Biden won the presidency or won the election or whatever.
(08:54):
Some groups being like, yeah, I really try to push
this theory, this conspiracy about election fraud, even if you
even if you don't believe in it, just push it
because that helps our cause. And that's that's something to
be really mindful of too. Forgot where else I was
going with that. Well, yeah, a lot of them don't
mean what they say. They'll say things that will push
(09:15):
other people to do something that they don't necessarily want
to do. And that's a lot of a lot of
Like during January six, so much excitement because they could
see that the Q and on crowd are actually mobilizing,
and so they said to them, like to themselves, like,
you know, get them, get the mobilizing for the white race,
(09:36):
get the mobilizing for you know, our cause. And they've
really successfully been able to infiltrate that and be able
to get some people on board with some of it
just based on using their rhetoric. Yeah, I know, I
talked about this on our podcast, but you could see it,
(09:57):
like I reported on January six, in person, and like
you could watch it happen. Someone with a skull mask
on or proud boy or an oath keeper would literally
come back from the police line, grab a group of people,
yell something at them about Q and On or the
storms upon us, and throw them up to that riot
line until I did a really good did a really
(10:18):
good visual investigation of how those extremistcupes used mega people
in Q and On people as their foot soldiers. Qua
a folk Qua didn't really good break down their animous podcast. Yea, yeah.
But it's also with I mean not to link everything
the Christian identity, which I have a tendency to do,
but it's it's very ideologically similar to Q and On,
(10:39):
like from a Christianity point of view, Like that's Q
and On is like so close to the edge of
Christian identity. It's very scary. Actually I talked about it
on Jake Hammer Hands Q Clarence podcast. But there's also
like not only trying to who accelerate things through them,
but also trying to recruit them through these like very
very similar talking bo It's about like the Synagogue of
(11:01):
Satan and all that, saying that Christian identity is an
entry point for some of them, some of them can
bring it up as an entry point into further like
accelerationist Nazi ship, but like they will start with Christian
identity because I think that it's more pactual to people
who already believe in Q and on. Yeah exactly. I mean,
like Will was saying, these there's a lot of this
(11:23):
comes from these kind of boomer conspiracies and anti vax groups,
and you're not going to be able to get you know,
Mimon pap pap into like Wotonism or something like that
hard enough, you can't. But like Christianity is something that's palatable.
It's something that's normal to them, and as you can
kind of slowly tweak it through to it on, you
can get them to this much work stream Like okay,
(11:43):
talk about Christian identity. I think we should, like maybe Matt,
you could define it Christian identity. It's this radical offshoot
of Christianity that sees all white people as a true
Israelites from the Bible um. And they also think Jewish
people are all literally the spawn of say And there's
this really dumb theory they came up with and like
(12:03):
kind of rewrote the whole Bible off of called can
I name z okay okay dual seed line theory where
they say, like the story if you know about uh,
like Adam and even all that they had Caine enabled, right,
so they see, um Kane was the offspring of Eve
and the devil and he was literally the spawn of
(12:25):
Satan and then he intermingled with all these races that
were there before Adam and Eve and created this demonic race.
And it's really really fucking dumb, but it's still here.
It's been for the tot minute. I'm probably going to
keep going. It's gonna get worse calling it now, it's
gonna get worse. Yeah, but uh, and the whole thing
(12:47):
is they essentially like worshiped like a Nazi Jesus. They
see Jesus only was really only talking to the white race,
and that Christianity and like God only is able to
be perceived to buy the white race. And before you
start laughing at people, because yes, it does sound very silly,
keep in mind that these are extremely dangerous, like right,
(13:08):
this is this is one problem with two and on
when liberals just start laughing about how crazy it is,
and then they're so surprised at January six, where like no, no,
like it's yeah, like they're actually dangerous because you've mentioned
in a lot. Yeah, and he's chricially that he's been
mentioned in various manifestos linked to you know, actually has
warned very like organized. It's like I mean, historically I
(13:34):
think part of like with Christian identity, with a lot
of these kind of like a lot of them based
their like whole historical context of like arianism on this
rewriting of history based on um a fake study that
was done in Nazi Germany about uh where some proto
(13:56):
Indo European languages came from. And so they believe that
like white people came from uh an area that's you know,
you could generally say it's certainly near the Black Sea. UM,
and that it's based on this like strange idea that
like Sanskrit is not the oldest language, but like are
(14:21):
you pointing the gun at me because I'm stepping in you?
I think it actually is useful and yeah, there there
is actual because they really tried to push this. They
made um a lot of fake studies that you could
(14:42):
spend a lot of time researching this and believe that
it's true, UM, because there's just so much written about it.
And I think this is like a tactic that they
really tend to do with historical revisionism. Allat is just
crank out essay after essay, even if it's wrong, even
if it's totally like based on false data, just doesn't
(15:02):
data that they don't care. They just write about it
and then they think that like having more written about
it makes it more legitimate. And if that's what we
are talking to I've been talking about this this whole
time we've been not recording. Is there's just an overflow
of content that is so easy to access, you know,
not necessarily from these specificers they're talking about, just from
(15:26):
the further right. In general, I just overflow the content.
It's like always the top ship on Facebook. To give
an idea of how pervasive even that idea of like
(15:46):
where Indo European languages came from, Like when I still
went to college, I took a Religions of South Asia
course and we had to spend like multiple days where
a professor went through these myths about like what was
the area invasion? Which like was there are arian people
that that is a thing historically, Yes they're not white people,
(16:09):
but like going through a new definition of white people.
Sure it's based on language. They think of arianism as
like referring to a linguistic pattern. Yeah, but like in
a university course, we still had to go through and
like debunk these myths because they've gotten so pervasive within
the culture. Yeah. And another thing I want to say
(16:30):
is that kind of these more entry level conspiracy ideas,
it is hard to over emphasize how small the spaces
between the entry level stuff and the much harder stuff.
It can happen extremely, extremely, you know, I'll give I'll
give an example. I went to you I was reporting
(16:50):
on an anti vax protest and they went straight into
talking about New World Order and Project Locks, Lockstep and
and the raw Childs and the Builderers and like the
Sabbatines and David Ice ship just me and this is
this was the middle of the day and like a
metropolitan area with a bunch of boomers and trump paths
who are getting this like hardcore ship pumped at them
(17:13):
or you uh sell that a lot. With the Nashville bombing,
to like immediately it was like, oh, it was actually
an attack on dominion. And also it was orchestrated by
the roths Childs to destroy evidence of voter for I
forgot that. Yeah, And then also there was a whole like,
there was a bunch of stuff that came up. There
is a big conspiracy that it was actually a missile strike.
I had to talk of my grandpa down from that.
(17:37):
There was a video that circulated for a while about
then I had to get into a conversation with my grandpa,
but at the time was super isolated because of COVID
and that's a whole yeah, And I had to like
talk him down and show him like, no, here's uh,
here's a video from somebody I knew who was like
somewhat in the area and saw the explosion and like,
and there was not a missile anywhere the day. One
(18:00):
of the data studies that I've done is UM and
worked on is using big pool and small pool discord
servers of far right extremists UM, far right militia groups
and UM very very like accelerationist skull mass type networks
UM and looking at the big pools and small pools
(18:20):
and seeing the app mentions between them, and there was
not one person who was more than three notes away
from anybody else. So it's very it can't be overstated
how close people are from entry to very very very
extreme h types of goals and ideology, explicit ideologies that
(18:47):
explicitly pushed violence. And you know, another point I want
to bring up is um like, yeah, there's been much
said about Queen On isn't going away. It's just not
called quan On anymore. Um with with these anti vax mobilization,
those mobilizations and groups aren't going away. They're just going
to continue to shift in evolve their focus and the network,
(19:09):
and they're planning for it like they've they've they've they've
designed it that way. So I sometimes I find the
normal stuff first, sometimes I find the crazy stuff first.
But I mean, not even that long ago. I came
across a particular social media profile that was explicitly calling
for acts of terror and attempting to organize acts of
terror and displaying acts of terror, which is like an
(19:30):
immediate problem that needs to be dealt with. However, they
had multiple alternate accounts that you follow that path, and
on their other accounts they're sharing like Tucker Carlson, stuff
like things that your grandparents are going to watch right like,
and that is done on purpose to try to like
siphon people out of um more quote unquote mainstream versions
(19:52):
of like conspiratorial thinking directly into like you should start
exploding things, and even even more even more, let's sa
left of center conspiracy thinking ties into this, and it's not,
you know, conspiracy theories are not solely a thing of
the right, which which passed me off to no end. No,
I just want to back you up on that, Like
(20:14):
I think there's this maybe this like implicit idea that
the left is immune to conspiracy theories when it very
much is. Um. Yeah, I just wanted to emphasize that point. Yeah,
that idea though, of like never being that far from
the serious stuff is something that's really really observable, even
(20:36):
beyond like a data level. I I used to like
consult with local newsrooms on how to report on things,
and one of the big points I always tried to
drill in was like, if you fuck this up and
you frame this the wrong way, it will have consequences.
And if this is stepping in it too much, we
can come literally but like the um Dylan Roof. Dylan
(21:01):
Roof started his journey to radicalization by reading about Trayvon
Martin in local news websites and local newspapers and then
googling black on White crime and his first result up
by the same exact thing exactly, and like it does
(21:22):
not It did not take long for him to go
from I am reading local news articles that are framed
this specific way to I am killing people. That's not normal,
of course, like a lot of people are not going
to be reading local news and then suddenly start to
think this way, but like there is a concerted effort
(21:43):
by some very specific people who would like to make
that pathway easier. It's well, it's interesting because we don't
we can't like define it really as terrorism. What are
they doing the like just they're just saying things, They're
just encouraging people to do things, and like they're not
(22:06):
like they're not doing anything wrong. We can't really call
it terrorism. The most dangerous people in this game are
usually not the ones doing the shooting, people behind the
scenes trying to people to go on these paths in
the first looking for people who are willing and then
so they see somebody reading local news maybe and they
want to make that pathway easier for to go from
local news and Dylan roof like because that's not a
(22:29):
normal jump, but they really want to find people who
are looking at local news like that and then say
to them like, well, okay, you look at this, now
look at that trying to try us back to climate change.
How do you see do you see a similar pathway
instead of instead of someone googling no black white crime,
like googling stuff about collapse and and and like modern modernization.
(22:51):
Eric Striker, I don't know. Eric Striker has been on
about this, and I think that he's a I mean
relatively like middle point that people get to like fairly
like average people do listen to things like Eric Stryker
entry level explicit Nazi and another thing and cut me
(23:13):
off if we don't want to go in this direction.
But you know, one of the biggest places where we
see young people getting into conspiracy theories is tiktoktok alright,
TikTok cut that cut that cut that we're not we're
not cutting that that is that is with the branches
(23:36):
of the pod. Yeah. I mean, the biggest entry points
I've seen for a lot of things remains crisis. Yeah.
And the thing is this, our upcoming climate scenario is
going to give people an easier jumping on point. Well, yeah,
that's so. I mean we were talking about how like
the mythology of like black and white crime and all
(23:56):
this stuff. They're trying to create a situation that, you know,
with the urgency that justifies fascism, which on its own
is unjustifiable and ridiculous. But when there's a crisis, climate
change is the existential threat that they've been trying to
artificially create, and they no longer have to. They now
get to skip a lot of steps and save a
lot of energy by just planning at the fact that
(24:17):
everything is literally on fire, and that like that that
makes it so much quicker. Say we have to do something.
We have all the guns. Now would be a great
time to join it in our power. This kid, this
this is our Bimar era hyperinflation type ship. I mean,
this is like when you're when you can't get food
(24:41):
from the grocery store anymore because of supply chain problems,
or when everything around you is on fire. You don't
need like a grace, you don't need a great replacement theory,
you don't need anything. You don't need to say that
the Rothchilds are behind it. You. You haven't just need
to wait. You have you have enough things that you
experience yourself, and it's much scary or when you can't
because I can't, Like how do we how do we stop? Yeah?
(25:04):
I can't. It's harder. The world is literally on fire.
It's it's a problem and something needs to be done
about it. I don't like your solution, but something needs
to happen. So what what what do you think on
this path? And this is going to get a whole
lot more speculative, but like, what can we do to
make people falling down those pathways less often? Like like, yes,
(25:26):
that is that, that's that's one of the things that
we're trying to do on the pot is making sure
that people do not fall fall down the the doomer
pathway because yeah, this that that does get people along
down like against like like against most types of extremism.
Eco extremism is most logical. Like you look at it
and you said, we need a radical change right now,
(25:49):
and that's correct. Um, It's just the way that they
go about it is very very different. And that's why,
like you know, eco fascism is very different. It's its
own type of eco extremism is in green anarchy, that's
a very different type of eco extremism. Like these are
all different parts of something that almost has the same
(26:10):
goals but wants to go about them very very very differently. Again,
and it's so easy to just look around and see
how everything's on fire and I think like the government's
doing nothing about it. The government starts doing something about it,
and then suddenly it's the state's two bigs were in communism,
you know, so they all of like different goals and
it's very conflicting on how to how to deal with
and like even the very different tactics between green anarchy
(26:33):
and like fascistic you extremism. They also will get two
different endicals, right, like you like your your basic amprinm,
what's a very different life than you're you know, very
you know very stepping in its pilled fascist right. A
collapse can only benefit the right, it can't. A collapse
can only benefit the people who already have power, who
(26:56):
already able bodied, who already it's stocked up on gone already, Like, yeah,
that does frustrate me with their being anarchists who are
like rooting for the collapse because you're not gonna win,
like you're just going to get behind a fence somewhere
on the wall. Yeah, well, they've got very strict ideas
of which people count as human and the goal of
(27:17):
the majority of fascist movements is to you know, purge
the ranks of the people they see is lesser, and
they have they have they have very precise ideas about
who they plan on letting to survive the collapse. So
let's let's I think it's time to start talking about
and tell me if I'm taking this in the long direction.
You know what the funding someone who's listening to this, Yeah, recycle,
(27:41):
stop recycling, it's all, it's all getting buried in the
organ force. Just vote, vote. I mean, like, what did
you start local? Find a local group, find a local
direct action group, investigate that group and see who is
behind it. But fine, start locally. It has to start
(28:03):
at the local level, because when should I'm trying to say,
I'm gonna say, if the collapse comes or like orally no,
not the collapse like local, local collapses. There's disasters continuiou
disasters are gonna fec at the local level. No, talk
to your talk to your neighbors, neighbors, talk to your family, Like,
let's try to get your family on these paths that
(28:24):
lead to helping your neighbors instead of you know, making
friends with the church militia. Before you buy a gun,
learn how to fucking garden. Yes, but buying a gun
and that sort of thing is is good. It's good
to know how to use firearms. Basic emergency preparedness, yes,
but learn learn how to put on our turn to
learn how to feed yourself. Learn how to grow some
(28:45):
fucking food. Learn how to cook that fucking food. Get
an effect all that comes before, like you get to
be a fallow up character. Oh yeah, an individual first
aid kit. You can buy them by the online, can
buy the stores, you can you can buy them in
like some pawn shops. Yeah, I like North American Rescue
(29:05):
or North River Rescue. I'm sure we'll talk about a
text more on the product. Well there, Look, there are
two big things. One, we all have a moral obligation
to consistently counter the black pill doomer ship. Everything is
coming to an end, like it doesn't have to. That's optional.
Like we we things are going to get bad, but
there's degrees of that. We can stop it from being.
(29:26):
And you don't need civilizational We don't need civilization to
end like that can be done. So. Two, we also
have an obligation to counter the individualist stuff and and
and focus our efforts more towards towards community and relationships.
And that is so so important because every idiot that's
going to buy a gun and have a bunker not
only is not going to make it, but it's gonna
screw the rest of us. Like this has to be
(29:47):
a communal effort and a civilization thing, Like we do
need the civilization to change, like we need human society,
as we lay out we as has a lot of problems.
I understand people's critiques of human civilization. We still need
a society, but yeah, we need we need places that
you know, people are going to catherine and people you know,
provide the things that we have. Um. I noticed that
that can be a loaded word on certain political circles.
(30:09):
So I'm not you know, we're not getting into like
civilization theory and that kind of anything. I was going
to say, I would argue any ideology or ideas just
the boogaloo that uh kind of hypes up a collapse
is generally one you should stay away from anything that
makes the collapse sound like it makes it sound sexy
and personal story. As I think it's important to remember,
(30:30):
like if there was some massive civil conflict that happened.
I think the people who would suffer the most, or
the noncombatants, talk about anything to deal with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
don't talk about a kind of episode of terrorism. Bad. Um, well,
we'll do plugs of the end. Hold put the gun
back in your pants together. I was talking about historical
precedent earlier, about things I've seen in the past with
(30:51):
collapses and how people with guns and people who with
training end up being the ones to gain power. Um.
Something that like I was specifically reading about that was, um,
like the Rwandan genocide. If you know, it was just
three months where most of the Susi people were wiped out. Um,
there are conflicting numbers, so I'm not gonna specifically say
(31:14):
any but um, you know the more recently like this year.
Earlier this year, Um was only when Rwanda admitted what
it was, that it was a genocide. And um, the
people the armed forces were the ones who became like
the leaders and then they were backed by the government. Yeah.
(31:38):
And it's like it can't happen here though we are
we are immune to this in our response of the world.
It will not happen here. And the other thing is,
look at where you get your information from. Seriously, no
matter who you are, take a long, hard look at
who you get your even if you're on the left,
(31:59):
especially if you're actually on the left. You know, if
you want to hear about something that's happening in an area,
look at the people who are actually on the ground reporting.
People don't just rely on like news aggregators. Especially on Twitter.
There has been a lot of bad, very bad faith
news agregators on Twitter who are posing as leftist. This
has been a huge problem, even leftists who just don't
(32:22):
do their or just do a very bad job. People
who call themselves like extremism or counter terism researchers and
they are really talking about anti They say that they
are counter extremism researchers, and they pose that way, and
they look sometimes like they could be, sometimes like they're not,
(32:43):
but like you know, vary varying degrees of life, legitimacy,
but like they focus only on like the left wing stuff.
They don't think, they don't see it has to be
this idea of like keeping it balanced right, like not
making it just like a far right issue, which I
(33:04):
would argue I think a lot of other people would
that this kind of stuff is more concerning issue and
there is like merit definitely to looking at left acceleration
left which is not for the record, left accelerationism is
not talking about anti fascists. But um, it's really not
(33:29):
time to get like, well, left accelerations will people be
its own affo. But what what some people do posing
as um, you know, people who have credibility and are
able to um kind of sway opinion, They are not
(33:50):
really doing what they say that they're doing. They're really
just trying to shift the narrative form of racially motivated
violent extremism, which to the big obviously to being like
BLM is racially motivated violent extremes, and they want to
push that narrative further and further. I think let's let's
(34:20):
let's let's go, let's kind of probably start to like
wrap up and say our final thoughts on you know,
this whole this whole topic. Um, I know, we we didn't.
We didn't, we did not, we did we did not
get to talk about like eco defense very much. Anyone
has any final thoughts on that and how they see
it kind of growing and how they see the state's
response to it. Um, that might be worth briefly mentioning. Yeah,
(34:41):
let's kind of let's let kind of go around in
a circle and give kind of everyone's you know, final
thoughts on the on the subjects. Um, I think collapse
is bad and I think that well, I mean that's
my main my main thing. But anything that's uh appealing
to you and on like an ecological level that's collapsed
(35:04):
related to something you should be very wary of. And
I think you should be ware very wary of, like
generally everything. I feel like it's kind of like a butcher,
be careful about everything. Um. Yeah, I guess in my opinion,
the idea of total collapse is very misleading because it's
easy and disasters don't work like that. You're not going
(35:25):
to suddenly reset one day. Um. Everything is going to suck,
and you're going to need to fight for whatever semblance
of a society that you want to see in the world.
Talk to your neighbors. That can people in your city,
in your neighborhood. There are people doing good ship in
whatever city town you live in most likely, if not,
you can start it. Look at your local mutual aid network,
(35:48):
Look at the people who are taking action around and
get involved seriously. You know, it could be going out
into a park Saturday mornings and just like giving out food,
talking to the people who are most affective, talked to
people seriously every once a person. You need to talk
to touch grass, you talk to people if you need,
like the most basic thing to start on any sort
(36:08):
of mutual aid work trying to find a food not
ball chapter in your They're well organized, they're easy to
join it. You don't have to put on block and
fight a cop. It's yeah, it's a good entry point
and it's it's great. That's great training for for disaster relief.
If you have money and you want to help seriously,
just give cash to on house, people on the street.
You give money, give money to people, give money directly
(36:30):
to people. Yep. Uh. My last thoughts are just that
I think the idea of collapse or whether actual collapse themselves,
environmental or otherwise, will always be something to rally behind,
Like it is always an entry point as well as
a motivator from from all for all sides, from all sides. Um.
But it's like when these things become very silent, like
(36:50):
was mentioned before, when they're outside of your door, that's
when you know, that's when like the ideology kind of
hits the pavement, like what is actually going to play out,
what is actually going to happen, and how that's gonna
affect people. It's very real. So building community, you know,
building connections and just understanding you know, who is in
your community. It's probably one of the most important things. Yeah,
(37:14):
the idea of collapse is a romantic and ridiculous notion.
Uh come up with people who are like really into
like apocalyptic thinking and the version of themselves where they
get to be the main character. So first and foremost
take care of each other. There are a lot of
people out there who want to manipulate you and want
to change the way you think about things, and they
really really want you to buy in to the end
(37:37):
times and you don't have to because you're smarter than that. Yeah,
it's it's not hopeless. We really have to move away
from hierarchical thinking. Our society really incentivized this hierarchical thinking
and thinking. I was saying to is sect like we um,
we really need to just be focusing on people, like
if things people, because you know, somebody doesn't have to
(38:00):
you know, earn you know, respect and earn humanity. For
some reason, we try and make it seem like that.
But people are people. Um, people are in different circumstances
because of usually because of just the way that the
world is. And um, yeah, you need to just you
(38:20):
need to organize locally. You need to help your own
people and stay away from the internet. Ship stop posting.
Stop posting, as I'm as, stop posting, even though like
we'll keep doing it because I'm the good posters. Um,
who wants who wants to plug the pot? Your PCT
(38:42):
follow terrorism bad? We're on what is the pot? Like? What? What?
What do you? Yeah? We go through, um, portrayals of
terrorism and extremism and conspiracies and conspiracies in popular media,
and we get it from the perspective of people who
studied this and say, did this succeed in portraying these
(39:05):
things or did it as more often does problems completely
fail and cause us all personal problems be propaganda? And
did you make care of propaganda or did you make
good media about That is a thin line, I mean
such a thin line. I've made a career out that
is that is the thin terror line? Yeah, do you
want to plug your fantastic group. Yeah, absolutely with you
(39:27):
can read anything I read at Anti Hate dot c
A and we do just general reporting on uh far
right extremism in Canada as well as Infiltration podcast. Oh
and I also host a podcast called The Unusual Show. Yeah,
if you want to keep up to date on extremism
in Canada, their group is one of is probably the
(39:47):
best one around right now in my opinions. And yeah,
you do, you do, you do very good work. You
keep your eye on my home country where my family lives.
So thank you for that. Um, and I'm very happy
to to be talking with you guys in the beautiful
woods where we have no cell service. We can't post
um and that's good and we're gonna continue doing that
(40:08):
and stop using this microphone. So goodbye. Um yeah and
terrorist and at the podcast. With that, that wraps up
the Terrorism round Table Forest Discussion episodes. Thanks for listening
to all of us rant about our specific weird niche
(40:30):
focuses and hopefully trying to have it within the useful
context of climate change. You can follow me at Hungry Bowtie.
You can follow the podcast Happen Here pod and cool
Zone Media on Twitter, and I believe Instagram, you can
follow some of the researchers. I interviewed UM on their
podcast at Terrorism Bad. So that wraps up this discussion.
(40:52):
Thanks for listening, See you later in the podcasting verse,
the pod verse. Okay, goodbye, Okay. It could Happen here
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone Media
dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
(41:15):
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening,
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This
is part two of our terrorism Roundtable discussion. If you
haven't listened to part one already, I would recommend you
scroll back, listen to the previous episode and then continue
on from here so you have kind of context to
what exactly we're talking about. Anyway, this is part two
of our discussion in the Woods. I hope you enjoy.
(00:27):
Something that we've talked about earlier this year after January six,
was like should the government ban telegram? Right? That was
the thing And there's a lot of a lot of
arguments are like no, absolutely not, and there's does it?
Does anyone want to speak on that? Because you know,
because like if I want to talk about the government's
response to these things, you know, that's a very government
thing to do. Be like, oh, people are organized on
(00:48):
this platform, get out of the platform. Problem gone, you know,
and that's not how that works. You want us talking
that a little bit? Sure? Um? Yeah, so there, Yeah,
getting rid of the platform? Doesn't that necessarily help, especially
when it's something that is important, such as like you know,
encrypted communication, which is something that more people than just
Nazis need. Um And that resource should not be cut off.
(01:11):
And there's also kind of a bad precedent to be
set if the if the government is deciding which uh
forms of speech it needs to have complete access to.
I don't love that. Um. The other thing is that
if we knew telegram, right, they don't disappear, they formed
that networks there just harder to hard. People are absolutely
(01:37):
correct when they say D platforming works because it works
for the platform and a lot of people just want that.
A lot of people just don't want to see Nazi
ship and they're fine with you know, D platform and
they say this works, and they have data to backup
that it does work. But it works for the platform.
But the people still exist, Yeah, still boosting their own
ship and when they bring up building their own all
(01:58):
tech platforms, you know works there early yeah, yeah, yeah,
and there is elements that Yeah, D platform is a
wider thing can or especially for like in person stuff,
but yeah, for your sort of the things you're mentioning, yes,
it is. It is definitely not not that cut and dry.
You know, I'm really interesting because it is kind of
this middle space between social media and just a messaging app. Yeah.
(02:21):
The thing about it too, is that anybody can look
at these you know, the public channels, so without without
saying anything in the chance, so people could be kind
of completely invisible. Nobody like nobody knows that they're there.
They're watching this stuff, and they're still getting the same messaging,
they're still getting the same dates for protests, they're still
like organizing. But they can be uh, sort of just
(02:43):
subscribe to a channel and you don't even need to
be subscribed. You can, yeah, just looking into it and
getting that flow of information without ever having like formal organizing,
so to speak. And so it's really hard to say that, like,
you know, these people planned this because there's a lot
of claus bolts and ability and involved. There's so much
(03:04):
easy hyber linking between groups and channels and everything. So
it's so easy for someone to move between ideology and
to go from kind of like the base level ship
and to be much deeper stuff extremely quick, very quick. Yeah,
actually quick. Well that's like that's good and that's good
for them. About telegram is that you have all of
(03:24):
the people that are vulnerable to let's say, new ideas
in one place exactly if you're trying to plan a collapse,
you're gonna need a lot more people than the numbers
that the people who want the collapse actually have. So
the easiest way to kind of move things along is
to sert inserting their ideas and their discourses and kind
(03:45):
of altering the vibe of certain digital environments manually until
they have um, what we can kindly call cannon fodder. Yeah,
or even starting their own and saying like, you know,
this is a maga platform and it's actually just you know,
went some bunch of accelerationists too made it, and they
(04:06):
made it to recruit them because he saw attempts of
this with like Q and on its people who are
way more slavation is trying to use people's extreme It
was successful and they did it and people died. Well
you're I mean that. And then also you've got like
like the idea of the boogaloo right that's being co
opted to try to appeal to leftists, and I mean
(04:27):
there's a really good article by Left Coast Right Watch
that goes into one of those chats and they're basically like, yeah,
I really try to push these ideas of really try
to push talking points like black lives matter and all
of us who want to get these protesters on our side.
And then you also have um, some blatant like white
supremacist groups who are all using the boogaloo, and how
much of that too is like how much that is
(04:50):
sort of real genuine like I am not racist, I
believe in black lives matter, like I want to be
part of this even though or like much of it
also is um kind of reminiscent of what we were
talking about or how about my stuff in it? But
like with you know, the idea of from Anson of
like Healter Skelter and like causing that race where it's
(05:11):
like they what they would do is like try and
frame black people for it and say like this was
you know yeah, yeah, I mean, and how much of
it is saying like this is black lives matter and
they want people to see that after they do. The
Googleloo group that showed up in Portland in January in
July when the particular fads were happening, now that they
(05:32):
showed up and we're all like, yeah, we're here to
support black lives matter and standing against the federal government
and stuff, um, and they had some very suspicious patches
that it took me took me about a year to
figure out what they were. And it's like this accelerationist like, um,
it ties into a whole bunch of like eco fascist
propaganda stuff. Um and yeah, it's like they're they're saying
these things, well they have these very obscure patches, um
(05:55):
and yeah, this is an important reason why we need
people who are not very smart, Like I will say,
Jimmy dor who puts these gives these people platforms are
some of the worst and are going to cause a
lot of problems because they have no idea what they're
doing or they know what they're doing, and they're just bad.
And like that boogle boo thing kind of serves a
twofold purpose in that you can bring people who self
(06:18):
identify as leftists into the movement, but you also have
a really good scapegoat for like actual Actually that was
a big thing that we saw in Minneapolis when things
first popped off, and like Precinct was getting burned down
and suddenly people on the internet start losing their minds
about the umbrella guy at the and there was a
(06:40):
guy who was indicted. He was a boo boo boy
who was indicted for um like headlines said burning down
the precinct. He fired a weapon, and he fired a
gun on like near the wall exactly, and so that
at the same time takes away agency from left wing
movement and the States able to be like, look, see,
it's just it's okay that cracked down on them because
(07:01):
they're all, you know, wild white supremacists exactly, just from
any autonomous room with the forms of the people in
a community that isn't that we wouldn't necessarily refer to
his left. It's just piste off people. I mean, that's
what we saw in every single you know, everybody, the
young kids who are sucking piste off and are going
to go smash it. And it's like saying, all of
this is people from outside of the town where it's
like I know, yeah, it's a tale as old as time,
(07:24):
Like outside agitator has been used since before this. It's
a very old state talking point. Yeah, what are you
gonna say that? Um, yeah, I was gonna say. Also,
it's somewhat related to that we're talking about using like
human on his cannon fodder, and also ties into the
sab sit conversation we're having. So my research I special
are not specialized. I focus on Christian identity, this white
(07:46):
supremacist ideology, and how specifically how it's grown since the
nineties until now through like the Internet and all that
fun stuff. This whole point they've been pushing lately is
to like there this with Christian identity. The whole thing
is they are preparing for the apocalypse, which they called
the tribulations. And they see modern see I folks see
(08:10):
the boogaloo as like the tribulation that's coming. So what
they're trying to do is go off grid and really
try to like establish this new land or like to
protect their kids and everything from like pollution and all
that ship, but also to be away from the collapse
and be able to start buy it. And then while
they're doing all that, like prepping homesteads and compounds and stuff,
(08:30):
they're also like pushing like election fraud conspiracies and all
that on like Q and on and the maggot crowd
because they believe it. Not because yeah, right, they don't
believe it. They know it's bullshit, but they can use
it to accelerate collapse, just like January says, yes, so exactly.
I mean when I mean there are groups when Joe
Biden won the presidency or won the election or whatever.
(08:54):
Some groups being like, yeah, I really try to push
this theory, this conspiracy about election fraud, even if you
even if you don't believe in it, just push it
because that helps our cause. And that's that's something to
be really mindful of too. Forgot where else I was
going with that. Well, yeah, a lot of them don't
mean what they say. They'll say things that will push
(09:15):
other people to do something that they don't necessarily want
to do. And that's a lot of a lot of
Like during January six, so much excitement because they could
see that the Q and on crowd are actually mobilizing,
and so they said to them, like to themselves, like,
you know, get them, get the mobilizing for the white race,
(09:36):
get the mobilizing for you know, our cause. And they've
really successfully been able to infiltrate that and be able
to get some people on board with some of it
just based on using their rhetoric. Yeah, I know, I
talked about this on our podcast, but you could see it,
(09:57):
like I reported on January six, in person, and like
you could watch it happen. Someone with a skull mask
on or proud boy or an oath keeper would literally
come back from the police line, grab a group of people,
yell something at them about Q and On or the
storms upon us, and throw them up to that riot
line until I did a really good did a really
(10:18):
good visual investigation of how those extremistcupes used mega people
in Q and On people as their foot soldiers. Qua
a folk Qua didn't really good break down their animous podcast. Yea, yeah.
But it's also with I mean not to link everything
the Christian identity, which I have a tendency to do,
but it's it's very ideologically similar to Q and On,
(10:39):
like from a Christianity point of view, Like that's Q
and On is like so close to the edge of
Christian identity. It's very scary. Actually I talked about it
on Jake Hammer Hands Q Clarence podcast. But there's also
like not only trying to who accelerate things through them,
but also trying to recruit them through these like very
very similar talking bo It's about like the Synagogue of
(11:01):
Satan and all that, saying that Christian identity is an
entry point for some of them, some of them can
bring it up as an entry point into further like
accelerationist Nazi ship, but like they will start with Christian
identity because I think that it's more pactual to people
who already believe in Q and on. Yeah exactly. I mean,
like Will was saying, these there's a lot of this
(11:23):
comes from these kind of boomer conspiracies and anti vax groups,
and you're not going to be able to get you know,
Mimon pap pap into like Wotonism or something like that
hard enough, you can't. But like Christianity is something that's palatable.
It's something that's normal to them, and as you can
kind of slowly tweak it through to it on, you
can get them to this much work stream Like okay,
(11:43):
talk about Christian identity. I think we should, like maybe Matt,
you could define it Christian identity. It's this radical offshoot
of Christianity that sees all white people as a true
Israelites from the Bible um. And they also think Jewish
people are all literally the spawn of say And there's
this really dumb theory they came up with and like
(12:03):
kind of rewrote the whole Bible off of called can
I name z okay okay dual seed line theory where
they say, like the story if you know about uh,
like Adam and even all that they had Caine enabled, right,
so they see, um Kane was the offspring of Eve
and the devil and he was literally the spawn of
(12:25):
Satan and then he intermingled with all these races that
were there before Adam and Eve and created this demonic race.
And it's really really fucking dumb, but it's still here.
It's been for the tot minute. I'm probably going to
keep going. It's gonna get worse calling it now, it's
gonna get worse. Yeah, but uh, and the whole thing
(12:47):
is they essentially like worshiped like a Nazi Jesus. They
see Jesus only was really only talking to the white race,
and that Christianity and like God only is able to
be perceived to buy the white race. And before you
start laughing at people, because yes, it does sound very silly,
keep in mind that these are extremely dangerous, like right,
(13:08):
this is this is one problem with two and on
when liberals just start laughing about how crazy it is,
and then they're so surprised at January six, where like no, no,
like it's yeah, like they're actually dangerous because you've mentioned
in a lot. Yeah, and he's chricially that he's been
mentioned in various manifestos linked to you know, actually has
warned very like organized. It's like I mean, historically I
(13:34):
think part of like with Christian identity, with a lot
of these kind of like a lot of them based
their like whole historical context of like arianism on this
rewriting of history based on um a fake study that
was done in Nazi Germany about uh where some proto
(13:56):
Indo European languages came from. And so they believe that
like white people came from uh an area that's you know,
you could generally say it's certainly near the Black Sea. UM,
and that it's based on this like strange idea that
like Sanskrit is not the oldest language, but like are
(14:21):
you pointing the gun at me because I'm stepping in you?
I think it actually is useful and yeah, there there
is actual because they really tried to push this. They
made um a lot of fake studies that you could
(14:42):
spend a lot of time researching this and believe that
it's true, UM, because there's just so much written about it.
And I think this is like a tactic that they
really tend to do with historical revisionism. Allat is just
crank out essay after essay, even if it's wrong, even
if it's totally like based on false data, just doesn't
(15:02):
data that they don't care. They just write about it
and then they think that like having more written about
it makes it more legitimate. And if that's what we
are talking to I've been talking about this this whole
time we've been not recording. Is there's just an overflow
of content that is so easy to access, you know,
not necessarily from these specificers they're talking about, just from
(15:26):
the further right. In general, I just overflow the content.
It's like always the top ship on Facebook. To give
an idea of how pervasive even that idea of like
(15:46):
where Indo European languages came from, Like when I still
went to college, I took a Religions of South Asia
course and we had to spend like multiple days where
a professor went through these myths about like what was
the area invasion? Which like was there are arian people
that that is a thing historically, Yes they're not white people,
(16:09):
but like going through a new definition of white people.
Sure it's based on language. They think of arianism as
like referring to a linguistic pattern. Yeah, but like in
a university course, we still had to go through and
like debunk these myths because they've gotten so pervasive within
the culture. Yeah. And another thing I want to say
(16:30):
is that kind of these more entry level conspiracy ideas,
it is hard to over emphasize how small the spaces
between the entry level stuff and the much harder stuff.
It can happen extremely, extremely, you know, I'll give I'll
give an example. I went to you I was reporting
(16:50):
on an anti vax protest and they went straight into
talking about New World Order and Project Locks, Lockstep and
and the raw Childs and the Builderers and like the
Sabbatines and David Ice ship just me and this is
this was the middle of the day and like a
metropolitan area with a bunch of boomers and trump paths
who are getting this like hardcore ship pumped at them
(17:13):
or you uh sell that a lot. With the Nashville bombing,
to like immediately it was like, oh, it was actually
an attack on dominion. And also it was orchestrated by
the roths Childs to destroy evidence of voter for I
forgot that. Yeah, And then also there was a whole like,
there was a bunch of stuff that came up. There
is a big conspiracy that it was actually a missile strike.
I had to talk of my grandpa down from that.
(17:37):
There was a video that circulated for a while about
then I had to get into a conversation with my grandpa,
but at the time was super isolated because of COVID
and that's a whole yeah, And I had to like
talk him down and show him like, no, here's uh,
here's a video from somebody I knew who was like
somewhat in the area and saw the explosion and like,
and there was not a missile anywhere the day. One
(18:00):
of the data studies that I've done is UM and
worked on is using big pool and small pool discord
servers of far right extremists UM, far right militia groups
and UM very very like accelerationist skull mass type networks
UM and looking at the big pools and small pools
(18:20):
and seeing the app mentions between them, and there was
not one person who was more than three notes away
from anybody else. So it's very it can't be overstated
how close people are from entry to very very very
extreme h types of goals and ideology, explicit ideologies that
(18:47):
explicitly pushed violence. And you know, another point I want
to bring up is um like, yeah, there's been much
said about Queen On isn't going away. It's just not
called quan On anymore. Um with with these anti vax mobilization,
those mobilizations and groups aren't going away. They're just going
to continue to shift in evolve their focus and the network,
(19:09):
and they're planning for it like they've they've they've they've
designed it that way. So I sometimes I find the
normal stuff first, sometimes I find the crazy stuff first.
But I mean, not even that long ago. I came
across a particular social media profile that was explicitly calling
for acts of terror and attempting to organize acts of
terror and displaying acts of terror, which is like an
(19:30):
immediate problem that needs to be dealt with. However, they
had multiple alternate accounts that you follow that path, and
on their other accounts they're sharing like Tucker Carlson, stuff
like things that your grandparents are going to watch right like,
and that is done on purpose to try to like
siphon people out of um more quote unquote mainstream versions
(19:52):
of like conspiratorial thinking directly into like you should start
exploding things, and even even more even more, let's sa
left of center conspiracy thinking ties into this, and it's not,
you know, conspiracy theories are not solely a thing of
the right, which which passed me off to no end. No,
I just want to back you up on that, Like
(20:14):
I think there's this maybe this like implicit idea that
the left is immune to conspiracy theories when it very
much is. Um. Yeah, I just wanted to emphasize that point. Yeah,
that idea though, of like never being that far from
the serious stuff is something that's really really observable, even
(20:36):
beyond like a data level. I I used to like
consult with local newsrooms on how to report on things,
and one of the big points I always tried to
drill in was like, if you fuck this up and
you frame this the wrong way, it will have consequences.
And if this is stepping in it too much, we
can come literally but like the um Dylan Roof. Dylan
(21:01):
Roof started his journey to radicalization by reading about Trayvon
Martin in local news websites and local newspapers and then
googling black on White crime and his first result up
by the same exact thing exactly, and like it does
(21:22):
not It did not take long for him to go
from I am reading local news articles that are framed
this specific way to I am killing people. That's not normal,
of course, like a lot of people are not going
to be reading local news and then suddenly start to
think this way, but like there is a concerted effort
(21:43):
by some very specific people who would like to make
that pathway easier. It's well, it's interesting because we don't
we can't like define it really as terrorism. What are
they doing the like just they're just saying things, They're
just encouraging people to do things, and like they're not
(22:06):
like they're not doing anything wrong. We can't really call
it terrorism. The most dangerous people in this game are
usually not the ones doing the shooting, people behind the
scenes trying to people to go on these paths in
the first looking for people who are willing and then
so they see somebody reading local news maybe and they
want to make that pathway easier for to go from
local news and Dylan roof like because that's not a
(22:29):
normal jump, but they really want to find people who
are looking at local news like that and then say
to them like, well, okay, you look at this, now
look at that trying to try us back to climate change.
How do you see do you see a similar pathway
instead of instead of someone googling no black white crime,
like googling stuff about collapse and and and like modern modernization.
(22:51):
Eric Striker, I don't know. Eric Striker has been on
about this, and I think that he's a I mean
relatively like middle point that people get to like fairly
like average people do listen to things like Eric Stryker
entry level explicit Nazi and another thing and cut me
(23:13):
off if we don't want to go in this direction.
But you know, one of the biggest places where we
see young people getting into conspiracy theories is tiktoktok alright,
TikTok cut that cut that cut that we're not we're
not cutting that that is that is with the branches
(23:36):
of the pod. Yeah. I mean, the biggest entry points
I've seen for a lot of things remains crisis. Yeah.
And the thing is this, our upcoming climate scenario is
going to give people an easier jumping on point. Well, yeah,
that's so. I mean we were talking about how like
the mythology of like black and white crime and all
(23:56):
this stuff. They're trying to create a situation that, you know,
with the urgency that justifies fascism, which on its own
is unjustifiable and ridiculous. But when there's a crisis, climate
change is the existential threat that they've been trying to
artificially create, and they no longer have to. They now
get to skip a lot of steps and save a
lot of energy by just planning at the fact that
(24:17):
everything is literally on fire, and that like that that
makes it so much quicker. Say we have to do something.
We have all the guns. Now would be a great
time to join it in our power. This kid, this
this is our Bimar era hyperinflation type ship. I mean,
this is like when you're when you can't get food
(24:41):
from the grocery store anymore because of supply chain problems,
or when everything around you is on fire. You don't
need like a grace, you don't need a great replacement theory,
you don't need anything. You don't need to say that
the Rothchilds are behind it. You. You haven't just need
to wait. You have you have enough things that you
experience yourself, and it's much scary or when you can't
because I can't, Like how do we how do we stop? Yeah?
(25:04):
I can't. It's harder. The world is literally on fire.
It's it's a problem and something needs to be done
about it. I don't like your solution, but something needs
to happen. So what what what do you think on
this path? And this is going to get a whole
lot more speculative, but like, what can we do to
make people falling down those pathways less often? Like like, yes,
(25:26):
that is that, that's that's one of the things that
we're trying to do on the pot is making sure
that people do not fall fall down the the doomer
pathway because yeah, this that that does get people along
down like against like like against most types of extremism.
Eco extremism is most logical. Like you look at it
and you said, we need a radical change right now,
(25:49):
and that's correct. Um, It's just the way that they
go about it is very very different. And that's why,
like you know, eco fascism is very different. It's its
own type of eco extremism is in green anarchy, that's
a very different type of eco extremism. Like these are
all different parts of something that almost has the same
(26:10):
goals but wants to go about them very very very differently. Again,
and it's so easy to just look around and see
how everything's on fire and I think like the government's
doing nothing about it. The government starts doing something about it,
and then suddenly it's the state's two bigs were in communism,
you know, so they all of like different goals and
it's very conflicting on how to how to deal with
and like even the very different tactics between green anarchy
(26:33):
and like fascistic you extremism. They also will get two
different endicals, right, like you like your your basic amprinm,
what's a very different life than you're you know, very
you know very stepping in its pilled fascist right. A
collapse can only benefit the right, it can't. A collapse
can only benefit the people who already have power, who
(26:56):
already able bodied, who already it's stocked up on gone already, Like, yeah,
that does frustrate me with their being anarchists who are
like rooting for the collapse because you're not gonna win,
like you're just going to get behind a fence somewhere
on the wall. Yeah, well, they've got very strict ideas
of which people count as human and the goal of
(27:17):
the majority of fascist movements is to you know, purge
the ranks of the people they see is lesser, and
they have they have they have very precise ideas about
who they plan on letting to survive the collapse. So
let's let's I think it's time to start talking about
and tell me if I'm taking this in the long direction.
You know what the funding someone who's listening to this, Yeah, recycle,
(27:41):
stop recycling, it's all, it's all getting buried in the
organ force. Just vote, vote. I mean, like, what did
you start local? Find a local group, find a local
direct action group, investigate that group and see who is
behind it. But fine, start locally. It has to start
(28:03):
at the local level, because when should I'm trying to say,
I'm gonna say, if the collapse comes or like orally no,
not the collapse like local, local collapses. There's disasters continuiou
disasters are gonna fec at the local level. No, talk
to your talk to your neighbors, neighbors, talk to your family, Like,
let's try to get your family on these paths that
(28:24):
lead to helping your neighbors instead of you know, making
friends with the church militia. Before you buy a gun,
learn how to fucking garden. Yes, but buying a gun
and that sort of thing is is good. It's good
to know how to use firearms. Basic emergency preparedness, yes,
but learn learn how to put on our turn to
learn how to feed yourself. Learn how to grow some
(28:45):
fucking food. Learn how to cook that fucking food. Get
an effect all that comes before, like you get to
be a fallow up character. Oh yeah, an individual first
aid kit. You can buy them by the online, can
buy the stores, you can you can buy them in
like some pawn shops. Yeah, I like North American Rescue
(29:05):
or North River Rescue. I'm sure we'll talk about a
text more on the product. Well there, Look, there are
two big things. One, we all have a moral obligation
to consistently counter the black pill doomer ship. Everything is
coming to an end, like it doesn't have to. That's optional.
Like we we things are going to get bad, but
there's degrees of that. We can stop it from being.
(29:26):
And you don't need civilizational We don't need civilization to
end like that can be done. So. Two, we also
have an obligation to counter the individualist stuff and and
and focus our efforts more towards towards community and relationships.
And that is so so important because every idiot that's
going to buy a gun and have a bunker not
only is not going to make it, but it's gonna
screw the rest of us. Like this has to be
(29:47):
a communal effort and a civilization thing, Like we do
need the civilization to change, like we need human society,
as we lay out we as has a lot of problems.
I understand people's critiques of human civilization. We still need
a society, but yeah, we need we need places that
you know, people are going to catherine and people you know,
provide the things that we have. Um. I noticed that
that can be a loaded word on certain political circles.
(30:09):
So I'm not you know, we're not getting into like
civilization theory and that kind of anything. I was going
to say, I would argue any ideology or ideas just
the boogaloo that uh kind of hypes up a collapse
is generally one you should stay away from anything that
makes the collapse sound like it makes it sound sexy
and personal story. As I think it's important to remember,
(30:30):
like if there was some massive civil conflict that happened.
I think the people who would suffer the most, or
the noncombatants, talk about anything to deal with it. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
don't talk about a kind of episode of terrorism. Bad. Um, well,
we'll do plugs of the end. Hold put the gun
back in your pants together. I was talking about historical
precedent earlier, about things I've seen in the past with
(30:51):
collapses and how people with guns and people who with
training end up being the ones to gain power. Um.
Something that like I was specifically reading about that was, um,
like the Rwandan genocide. If you know, it was just
three months where most of the Susi people were wiped out. Um,
there are conflicting numbers, so I'm not gonna specifically say
(31:14):
any but um, you know the more recently like this year.
Earlier this year, Um was only when Rwanda admitted what
it was, that it was a genocide. And um, the
people the armed forces were the ones who became like
the leaders and then they were backed by the government. Yeah.
(31:38):
And it's like it can't happen here though we are
we are immune to this in our response of the world.
It will not happen here. And the other thing is,
look at where you get your information from. Seriously, no
matter who you are, take a long, hard look at
who you get your even if you're on the left,
(31:59):
especially if you're actually on the left. You know, if
you want to hear about something that's happening in an area,
look at the people who are actually on the ground reporting.
People don't just rely on like news aggregators. Especially on Twitter.
There has been a lot of bad, very bad faith
news agregators on Twitter who are posing as leftist. This
has been a huge problem, even leftists who just don't
(32:22):
do their or just do a very bad job. People
who call themselves like extremism or counter terism researchers and
they are really talking about anti They say that they
are counter extremism researchers, and they pose that way, and
they look sometimes like they could be, sometimes like they're not,
(32:43):
but like you know, vary varying degrees of life, legitimacy,
but like they focus only on like the left wing stuff.
They don't think, they don't see it has to be
this idea of like keeping it balanced right, like not
making it just like a far right issue, which I
(33:04):
would argue I think a lot of other people would
that this kind of stuff is more concerning issue and
there is like merit definitely to looking at left acceleration
left which is not for the record, left accelerationism is
not talking about anti fascists. But um, it's really not
(33:29):
time to get like, well, left accelerations will people be
its own affo. But what what some people do posing
as um, you know, people who have credibility and are
able to um kind of sway opinion, They are not
(33:50):
really doing what they say that they're doing. They're really
just trying to shift the narrative form of racially motivated
violent extremism, which to the big obviously to being like
BLM is racially motivated violent extremes, and they want to
push that narrative further and further. I think let's let's
(34:20):
let's let's go, let's kind of probably start to like
wrap up and say our final thoughts on you know,
this whole this whole topic. Um, I know, we we didn't.
We didn't, we did not, we did we did not
get to talk about like eco defense very much. Anyone
has any final thoughts on that and how they see
it kind of growing and how they see the state's
response to it. Um, that might be worth briefly mentioning. Yeah,
(34:41):
let's kind of let's let kind of go around in
a circle and give kind of everyone's you know, final
thoughts on the on the subjects. Um, I think collapse
is bad and I think that well, I mean that's
my main my main thing. But anything that's uh appealing
to you and on like an ecological level that's collapsed
(35:04):
related to something you should be very wary of. And
I think you should be ware very wary of, like
generally everything. I feel like it's kind of like a butcher,
be careful about everything. Um. Yeah, I guess in my opinion,
the idea of total collapse is very misleading because it's
easy and disasters don't work like that. You're not going
(35:25):
to suddenly reset one day. Um. Everything is going to suck,
and you're going to need to fight for whatever semblance
of a society that you want to see in the world.
Talk to your neighbors. That can people in your city,
in your neighborhood. There are people doing good ship in
whatever city town you live in most likely, if not,
you can start it. Look at your local mutual aid network,
(35:48):
Look at the people who are taking action around and
get involved seriously. You know, it could be going out
into a park Saturday mornings and just like giving out food,
talking to the people who are most affective, talked to
people seriously every once a person. You need to talk
to touch grass, you talk to people if you need,
like the most basic thing to start on any sort
(36:08):
of mutual aid work trying to find a food not
ball chapter in your They're well organized, they're easy to
join it. You don't have to put on block and
fight a cop. It's yeah, it's a good entry point
and it's it's great. That's great training for for disaster relief.
If you have money and you want to help seriously,
just give cash to on house, people on the street.
You give money, give money to people, give money directly
(36:30):
to people. Yep. Uh. My last thoughts are just that
I think the idea of collapse or whether actual collapse themselves,
environmental or otherwise, will always be something to rally behind,
Like it is always an entry point as well as
a motivator from from all for all sides, from all sides. Um.
But it's like when these things become very silent, like
(36:50):
was mentioned before, when they're outside of your door, that's
when you know, that's when like the ideology kind of
hits the pavement, like what is actually going to play out,
what is actually going to happen, and how that's gonna
affect people. It's very real. So building community, you know,
building connections and just understanding you know, who is in
your community. It's probably one of the most important things. Yeah,
(37:14):
the idea of collapse is a romantic and ridiculous notion.
Uh come up with people who are like really into
like apocalyptic thinking and the version of themselves where they
get to be the main character. So first and foremost
take care of each other. There are a lot of
people out there who want to manipulate you and want
to change the way you think about things, and they
really really want you to buy in to the end
(37:37):
times and you don't have to because you're smarter than that. Yeah,
it's it's not hopeless. We really have to move away
from hierarchical thinking. Our society really incentivized this hierarchical thinking
and thinking. I was saying to is sect like we um,
we really need to just be focusing on people, like
if things people, because you know, somebody doesn't have to
(38:00):
you know, earn you know, respect and earn humanity. For
some reason, we try and make it seem like that.
But people are people. Um, people are in different circumstances
because of usually because of just the way that the
world is. And um, yeah, you need to just you
(38:20):
need to organize locally. You need to help your own
people and stay away from the internet. Ship stop posting.
Stop posting, as I'm as, stop posting, even though like
we'll keep doing it because I'm the good posters. Um,
who wants who wants to plug the pot? Your PCT
(38:42):
follow terrorism bad? We're on what is the pot? Like? What? What?
What do you? Yeah? We go through, um, portrayals of
terrorism and extremism and conspiracies and conspiracies in popular media,
and we get it from the perspective of people who
studied this and say, did this succeed in portraying these
(39:05):
things or did it as more often does problems completely
fail and cause us all personal problems be propaganda? And
did you make care of propaganda or did you make
good media about That is a thin line, I mean
such a thin line. I've made a career out that
is that is the thin terror line? Yeah, do you
want to plug your fantastic group. Yeah, absolutely with you
(39:27):
can read anything I read at Anti Hate dot c
A and we do just general reporting on uh far
right extremism in Canada as well as Infiltration podcast. Oh
and I also host a podcast called The Unusual Show. Yeah,
if you want to keep up to date on extremism
in Canada, their group is one of is probably the
(39:47):
best one around right now in my opinions. And yeah,
you do, you do, you do very good work. You
keep your eye on my home country where my family lives.
So thank you for that. Um, and I'm very happy
to to be talking with you guys in the beautiful
woods where we have no cell service. We can't post
um and that's good and we're gonna continue doing that
(40:08):
and stop using this microphone. So goodbye. Um yeah and
terrorist and at the podcast. With that, that wraps up
the Terrorism round Table Forest Discussion episodes. Thanks for listening
to all of us rant about our specific weird niche
(40:30):
focuses and hopefully trying to have it within the useful
context of climate change. You can follow me at Hungry Bowtie.
You can follow the podcast Happen Here pod and cool
Zone Media on Twitter, and I believe Instagram, you can
follow some of the researchers. I interviewed UM on their
podcast at Terrorism Bad. So that wraps up this discussion.
(40:52):
Thanks for listening, See you later in the podcasting verse,
the pod verse. Okay, goodbye, Okay. It could Happen here
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone Media
dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
(41:15):
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening,
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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