Partition with Neha Aziz

Shereen, Mia, and Garrison are joined by Neha Aziz to talk about her new podcast, Partition, and the importance of discovering your own history while also learning about the history of others. 

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, everyone, this is Sharene and you're listening to it
can happen here? It could? I always miss up the
name of this podcast, and it's really embarrassing because I
work on it. It could happen here. Um not, it
can happen here, the same words to me in my
head though. Anyway. We're joined today by I Guess that
I previously had on the podcast that I co host

(00:22):
Ethnically Ambiguous, and she has a podcast coming out that
is super important and I'm excited to talk about what
it's about and the podcast itself. Joining me today are
Garrison and Chris and our guest nihasse Hi. Hello, Hey, hello, welcome,
Thank you, Welcome to the show. So you're you have

(00:44):
a new podcast called Partition. Can you explain what that's about? Yes?
So Partition tells the story of the separation of India
and the formation of Pakistan that took place in on
Monday Day, well Sunday Monday, because I happened at midnight,
celebrated its seventy five anniversary this year. Um. So it's

(01:08):
quite a large event that most people don't really know about.
I myself didn't really know the specifics of it until
I first went back to Pakistan where I was born
and Cratchy um. But basically Britain was like, hey, we're
out of money, we can't control India anymore, We're gonna leave.
And in that process, they were going to transfer the

(01:31):
power UH to India and they were gonna they were
going to have independence. And then all these other politicians
kind of came in the picture and wanted their own
personal agendas and UH Pakistan would be the Muslim dominion
while India would be the Hindu Sikh dominion. And basically

(01:52):
within this process it was such a rushed job that
fourteen million people were uprooted, wanted, two million people died.
You know. Um, the boundary line actually wasn't announced until
a few days after independence happened, so no one knew
like what where they were in what country? Um. So

(02:12):
it was just like a lot of confusion, a lot
of violence, a lot of just a lot of mess
that happened. And you know, a lot of the survivors
are quite old now. My grandfather's a survivor. He's he
was fourteen when it happened, so he's eighty nine now.
And so the only way we can really get these
stories are through oral histories, and I never really learned

(02:32):
about it in school and because my parents didn't tell
me about it. Again, like I said, I didn't really
know about it for a long time. So if I
don't know about it, um, and this is like my
history and my family, UM, I'm sure there are many
other people who don't know about it. Well. I definitely
was very uninformed before you came on to the other

(02:53):
podcast technically ambiguous. I'm gonna stop saying it because it
sounds like I'm plugging it, but I'm not. UM, But also,
go listen to it. Thanks, I appreciate that. But but no,
I do think it's really important because it's absurd the
huge historical events that are like kept out of what

(03:13):
we were taught in history class, if you can even
call it that. UM. But but yeah, I think it's
really important to know about this huge thing that happened
in our recent history that created these two countries. UM.
Can you tell us what the process was making this
podcast for you and like what research you did and

(03:35):
we like just the steps leading up to it. Yeah.
So I originally wanted to make this UM story into
a limited narrative series, but I didn't really know how
that would happen. Um. And I don't have like an
agent or anything like that, but it was just a
project I wanted to work on. But it's such a

(03:56):
vast event. I was like, I don't know, like where
I would even start. Um. And then a couple of
months later, I saw um that our Heart Radio was
creating a program called Next Up. And that's when the
idea for the podcast came along, and I was like,
you know, podcasts are a really good way for people
to digest information. Um. It's a lot more accessible, I

(04:19):
think than other forms of media. It doesn't cost any money. Um.
You can download it in a number of ways, you
can listen to it in a number of ways. UM.
So I thought that might be a good place to start,
and I ended up getting accepted into the program. And
it's it's still like a lot of work, and it's
a lot of just it's a lot of draining work, um,

(04:42):
because you have all these like horrible facts written in
like one Google dog that you're saying to people because
I outlined them, and then I write a script because
it's mostly a lot of my narration with interview sprinkled in.
But the first thing I did is Um. I talked
to family, I talked to my grandpa. I talked to
my great aunt who was actually born the day of independence. Um. Yeah,

(05:06):
so Sunday, Monday, but just in case the day is
not yes, August fourteenth, August fifteen, so this year it
happened to be a Sunday in a Monday. And you know,
so I asked her what stories people told her? I
asked my mom. We went to an exhibit in Pakistan
that's kind of what spurred everything for partition for me,
and we talked about our experiences there. I had, like

(05:29):
my dad do some voice over for my grandpa because
the our connection wasn't the best. He's in Pakistan. We
recorded it via WhatsApp on a pad track recorder and
it's it was like it's very loud over there. There's
you know, birds chirping constantly. It was just like a
it was a situation. Um. But I just started reading

(05:49):
books and then I started talking to a lot of
people and I ended up talking to an author named
Nisida Jari, whose book I referenced quite a bit in
the second episode, which drops Monday eight twenty two. And
you know, the first thing he told me was you
can't cover everything. So once you understand that that's going
to be the case, and it's going to be a

(06:10):
lot easier, and it's true, like you can't cover everything.
And I kind of struggled a lot with the narrative
I wanted to tell because so many of the stories
out there are very biased. There's a lot of you know,
like the great men in history stories which I don't
care about, and I just wanted to tell the facts.
But I quickly discovered that's really hard because this is

(06:32):
my history, this is my story. This is something that
impacts my family for um, future generations, and my identity
without a doubt. So I was like, let me kind
of do it with the lens of discovery. UM. And
I wanted to tell the stories that people don't really

(06:54):
hear about. So I didn't want to talk about like
meetings that happened in libraries and what ever between like
all these politicians. I literally don't care about that. But
I wanted to talk about, um, the way women were treated.
It is thought that seventy to a hundred thousand women
were raped, abducted, murdered. I wanted to talk about I
wanted to talk to artists, and creatives who had kind

(07:18):
of like a reckoning with this history and then use
their work to teach people about it. So an artist
who reframes the narrative with her pieces and talks about
the actual people that affected a filmmaker, oral historians, uh, survivors. Um,
that's the stories that I wanted to tell. I didn't

(07:38):
want it to be um, something you would get like
on the History Channel, which is totally fine. That's great,
there's an audience for that, but that just isn't something
that I wanted to do. You're not doing a whole
bunch of ancient aliens then. Now. I did watch an
episode of Doctor Who that talks about partition, and I
think they are like aliens or something in there. So

(08:00):
there is something thrown in there about some sci fi stuff.
Though I'm fascinated to see how Doctor Who handles partition.
I mean it was actually done really well. It was
written by Yeah, it was written by South Asian person
and so that was like the first uh thing that
I saw in my research that really kind of showcase

(08:24):
like the emotion and and the things that people went through.
And I didn't see any British people besides like the
people that originally came on the mission or whatever. So
that was nice. Um. But yeah, like there there was
a sci fi element. I can't tell you what that
was about, but that aside, it was actually something that,
um that people told me about. When I mentioned partition,

(08:47):
They're like, oh, there's this episode of Doctor Who. So
I've only seen that one episode, but I think it
in the in my research. It was the first thing
where I was like, Okay, this actually tells a perspective
from the people of South Asia. Wow, let's get to
know it was written by a South Asian person. At
first I was like, I'm not even going to touch that. Yeah.

(09:11):
Up next, Stephen Moffatt writes about apartheiz, So, I'm curious
you mentioned not including like including some things but not
other things. What what like how did you decide what
to include and what not to include? Yeah, so in
a way you can say, like the actual history is

(09:33):
maybe the least important part I think of the podcast.
Like I talk about like events, like there's something called
direct Action Day that happened about a year before the
boundary line was announced, where Mohammad Ali Jinna, the future
founder of Pakistan, kind of called on Muslims to be
to to kind of have demonstrations, but it was kind

(09:55):
of unclear what exactly that meant. And massive looting carnage
took place, and I talked about that and how that
was like a big catalyst for partition. But I didn't
want to like get into like this treaty and this
event and like this meeting and whatever, because that information
is out there if people want to know. And like

(10:18):
I had mentioned, that's not really the aspects um that
I took particular interest in. I wanted to talk about
women and survivors and just you know, I felt I
found it to be very common people who are my
age and I just turned thirty two. Um, I guess
millennials you could say, Um, their parents and family don't

(10:38):
talk to them about it. So it's been really interesting
to talk to people who are my age, who are
older than me, who are younger than me have very
similar experiences and how they found out about this information. UM.
So those are the kind of things I wanted to
focus on because you know, a lot of our stories,
uh from minority communities, um, that are out there in

(11:01):
like mainstream media, are rarely told from our perspectives they're
told from somebody else, and so I wanted I wanted
this story to come from me and from other people
who um have just different experiences with partition, whether they
lived through it, whether they're an oral historian, whether they

(11:22):
write a fictional novel about it to cope with their trauma.
Which I interviewed a woman who did do that. She
was four years old when it happened, and she disassociated
herself a lot with partition until she wrote about until
she wrote about it in this fictionalized novel. UM. So
it's And I wanted to talk about what forms of
media were also out there, which is why I watched
that Doctor Who episode. I also watched Gandhi three hours

(11:44):
of my Life I'm never going to get back. Um terrible,
so not great. Um, you know I love Richard and
Borro like Durasser Park is great, but like this, this
wasn't it. This wasn't it. Um. So I wanted to
I wanted to point people in that direction where if
you actually wanted to dig deeper into this information, like

(12:06):
here's where you should go, Like don't don't watch Gandhi, Um,
like don't watch I mean, I love the Crown, but
I mean, like, let's be real, like, you know, like
if they mentioned I think India once in the pilot episode,
um where and it took place about three months after
partition happened, and Prince Philip is getting married to Queen Elizabeth,

(12:29):
and um, what's his name? Winston Churchill is walking and
he sees Lord Mountbatten, who was tasked with the separation
of India, who was also Prince Philip's uncle, and Winston
Churchill goes, oh, that's the man who gave India away.
And I'm like, that's not really what happened, but okay,
and that's the only thing that they say. Um. But

(12:52):
I do love period jamas and I do love Corgis,
which is one of the main reasons I watched The Crown. Um.
But yeah, so I want sorry one Pats the actually
got whacked for the IRA at the seventies, right, yes Jesus, yes, yeah,
I actually didn't know that until I watched The Crown, so, uh,
you know, um, because again that wasn't really I wasn't

(13:14):
really looking into him and his history. I don't care,
but I ended up seeing it in the crowd. Um. Yeah,
so I just I really wanted to focus on South
Asians and like our story and working through how real
generational trauma is and kind of reclaiming our narrative with

(13:35):
um just kind of the truth. And you know, something
that popped up when I was creating kind of getting
deeper into the podcast was Miss Marvel. I knew it
was going to follow a Muslim woman, which I was like, great,
but I didn't know that they would talk about partition
and how that was like a major plot point. And
so people are starting to learn about the history because
of that show, which is amazing. UM. So if I

(13:56):
can kind of add on to that and expand uh
people's education, I think that's great. Something else I also
wanted to do was I want people to have empathy
and sympathy for immigrants and refugees, especially ones that don't
look like them, um, because we come in all colors
and sizes, and you know, I think their response to

(14:18):
Ukraine Ukrainian refugees in the UK was great, but I
don't really think that same courtesy was extended to refugees
from Syria. And I think that's really important because I'm
an immigrant. It took quite a long time for me
to become a citizen twenty five years. So, um, and
it's very hard, and it's something that people don't know about,

(14:39):
and so I just kind of want I want people
to care about things that don't directly affect them, which
I think is very much like an American rooted thing. Um.
And so I really I mean, I don't think my
podcast is going to change that, but if I can,
but if people can look outside themselves, um with this,

(14:59):
I think that would be really great. Yeah, totally before
I forget and I want to make Daniel's day, let's
take a quick commercial break and we'll be right back. Okay,

(15:29):
and we're back. Um. One of the things I was wondering,
what do you actually think about the way that I
smartvil like did like talked about partition because I saw
a lot of I don't know, I saw a lot
of conflicting sort of arguments about it. Yeah, so I

(15:50):
liked it. Um. But I'm also I think when you're
our minority and you see something that has affected you
and your family or has oppressed you, you expect this
art form to talk about every single thing, you know, um,

(16:12):
because that is a burden that we bear as creative
artists of color, that if we don't talk about every
single thing that's the press of the community, then it's
not worth our time. It's kind of like the mantra
that we have UM. And for me, I'm like, this
show is six episodes, like what like, you know, you
need to understand that that is not something that that

(16:32):
they can encapsulate in there while talking about all these
other things. So I think it does a really good
job capturing emotion. UM. I feel a lot of times
you get the partition story from people who are um
who are currently in India. So it was nice to
see people from Pakistan, um like, and they're from Grati
just like I am. And I found it, you know,

(16:54):
like every episode just made me just crying more. I
am also very sensitive and so I would just um
because I felt it. You know. There was there was
a particular scene where Kamala was talking to her her
nanni which means grandmother, and her grandmother is like, my
passport says Pakistan, but my roots are in India. And

(17:14):
I really felt that because I was born in Pakistan,
my parents were born in Pakistan, but all other generations
were born in India, and that is a place because
of how tense the borders are between these countries. I
will not get to visit for the foreseeable future. If
you were born in Pakistan, you are not allowed to
go to India. If you were born in India, you're
not allowed to go to Pakistan. And it's just crazy

(17:37):
because I'm like, well, that's where I came from in
a sense, you know. Um, So for me, just because
like I said, I am a sensitive person. Like the emotion,
the you know, the people going on trains that you know,
that is something that I talked about a lot in
my podcast. A lot of people experienced or read about. Um,

(17:59):
A lot of people were hoping to get on trains
and when they tried, those trains came into the stations,
but they were filled with dead bodies and not people
who are alive. And so I think it did a
good job capturing the emotion. But it's like you there's
just no way you can capture the complexity of that
event with that. Even with my podcast it's ten episodes,
and like Nissagari had said earlier, you just can't cover everything,

(18:23):
so you have to pick and choose what you want.
And also like it's as an artist like for me,
for me, specifically, it's like I want to give you
like the crumbs of something, and then I want you
to look into it more, right, Like I shouldn't have
to force feed you information. I should keep you intrigued

(18:44):
enough for you don't want to look at this information
on your own, you know. So like that's how I
how I see it. But I am in a little
bit of a different position because I work in film
and TV, Like I programmed several film festivals and things
like that, so I'm almost also looking through that with
that kind of I um, but like I can understand
people are like, oh, I wish they talked about this.

(19:04):
I wish they talked about this, but you know, you know,
but me, I'm just like old six episodes. They have
to do all this exposition, they have to do this,
that's just impossible. But people aren't thinking that way. But
I think it really captured the emotion and the trauma
of that event and how how um sad it is,

(19:25):
you know, um, because it is sad to be like
I'll never get to see where my great grandparents lived
or my grandparents because they were children, you know, at
least until they decide that's not the case anymore. Um,
but yeah, I can understand people's criticisms, but I think
for me personally, I thought it did a really good job.

(19:45):
And actually, uh, the woman who created the exhibit that
I saw in Pakistan that really spearheaded this whole thing
for me actually directed episodes four and five of Miss Marvel,
so which is really cool to see that. That was
another thing I wanted to ask about was like, what
was the process of doing this, Like emotionally, I know
I did a I wound up doing somewhat similar things

(20:08):
for a couple of episodes about World War Two, and
like talking to my family about what it was like
in China was just like and like just doing the
sort of our Cape of Reefers, which just like brutal,
and yeah, I want to know, like what that was
like for you and what that was like for like
your family having to talk about it and yeah, yeah,
so it was really draining because you're just reading so
many awful things, like I read a number of different

(20:30):
books and you know, talking to all these people, and
I think for my grandfather, I think, like I don't,
I don't. He's not a very emotional person. And again
I wasn't physically there with him when he was talking
to me, and I think it's like something that's for sure,
like in the past for him. And he was fortunate
in the way that he came from an area that

(20:50):
did have violence, but it wasn't to the extent that
you of other people's accounts. Um. And but talking to
survive vers was really hard. I actually went to San
Francisco to talk to someone specifically because they're very hard
of hearing, and so doing it virtually would have been
very impossible. And it was also it was also hard

(21:12):
because he was saying all these things and then he
would tear up, and it's like where do you just
listen to this person? And then where do you comfort them?
Is really hard because I don't want to interrupt, but
I don't want them to be like I don't care
about what you're saying, like it's affecting me, you know. Um.
And that person spoke to me for two and a
half hours, and I had yet to really listen to

(21:33):
his audio. I've just like listened to bits and pieces
just for like clarity purposes. UM. So that's gonna be
rough when that happens, and it's going to come up soon. Um.
But yeah, it was just really draining, and it's just
like like highlighting. It's like you know when you're reading
I've read all these books and you're highlighting things, but
it's like you're going to highlight the whole book because
it's just there's just so many crazy things. And yeah,

(21:56):
it's just really sad. It's really dreaming. Like I had
mentioned writing the scripts and a Google doc and I'm like,
here's just like twenty minutes of terror and like an
a page Google doc that you have to say, um.
And that also brings up another point where even though
this podcast is sad and it's not particularly uplifting in
certain ways, I did want to be myself and so

(22:19):
I try to add a little bit of lovity in there.
Um Like, there was an artist who um that I mentioned.
Her work name is Pertica Chodori. She had these really
beautiful installations um of like female body parts, but they
ended up getting ruined in transportation, and so she digitized
them and is and made n f T s and

(22:41):
so me trying to explain what an n f T
is is just the most ridiculous thing in the world.
So I was like, I'm not going to talk about it,
but it's like there's a little point of lovity in
there that we're talking about n f T s in
this podcast, you know. Um, but yeah, it's it was
it's still like a really dreaming process because I say
this a lot, and people of interviewed say this, that
partition isn't something that's in the past, is something that

(23:03):
is alive and breathing. And you know, Pritica said it
in a really distinct way where she's like, it lives
in families and it really does. So like every day,
I feel like I just kind of it's hard for
me not to get bogged down with all this information because,
like I said, I am a sensitive person, so well,
I tend to hold things and carry things with me. Um.

(23:25):
But it's been a really rough process. But I think
what kind of makes it a little easier is like, well,
these people's stories are getting out there. Um, people who
may not know about this are going to learn about
it now, and maybe that inspires them to learn about
other events that they didn't learn in school. Like all
of my education was done in Texas and that can
be another podcast within itself, because our education is something

(23:49):
to say the least, um, you know, So that's kind
of the way I try to look at it, like
it's really rough. And then I also, um, I love
reading and everything, so I'm just like, I'm going to
read this like thirsty rom com to get me away
from like the horribleness of the work I'm doing every day.
So definitely a little bit of balance too. I do

(24:28):
think it's interesting to hear you say that you're I'm
very sensitive as well and how you hold stuff in.
I do think as people of color are families, especially
like immigrant families of people that have been through trauma.
That's that's why that's why most people don't know about this,
because this intergenerational trauma is something that they've kept and

(24:51):
barely talked about, if at all. Um So I'm really
glad that like you went to San Francisco and that
person was able to like release all of the this
emotion that they were holding probably for their whole life.
So so yeah, I do. I think, um, there are

(25:11):
many reasons why your podcast is important, but I think
even the chance that someone can like explore that not
trauma sounds a little bit more dramatic than I wanted to.
But like the feelings behind what that means and their
family history or even if you're not South Asian, it's
important to note again something that doesn't affect you because

(25:33):
the whole world really Yeah, just like understanding your history
and like where you come from. I have a friend
who's Chinese, and she texted me she was just like,
now I kind of want to look into like my history,
and I'm like, that's great, Like that's what I you know,
I wanted if I wanted any kind of like actionable
thing to happen, it's like that exact thing, looking into

(25:55):
your own history, looking into other people's histories. Totally. Wow. Um.
I did say before we confirmed you as a guest
that you're good at talking, and this confirmed that. Thank
you so much. You were the perfect podcast guest like

(26:17):
this period. Um. But I really appreciate your time, and
I appreciate the both effort and like emotional energy that
goes into making a show like this because I can
kind of relate when I talk about the Middle East stuff,
like it's really really hard. So I appreciate your time,
and I'm really excited for people to learn more about

(26:39):
the partition and what that means. Um, can you tell
the audience where they can find you, and the podcast
obviously is where you can find it. But let's I'm
going to hand it over to you. Here you go, okay. Um.
So Partition Podcast launched on augustive team you can find
it wherever you get your podcasts UM socially, the I

(27:00):
Heart Radio app. Um. You can find me on Instagram
and Twitter, Instagram at Nahazie's Twitter at Nahazie's thirteen. And
you can find Partition on Twitter at pod and Partition
Podcast on Instagram. Nice um on EA, you mentioned upcoming

(27:21):
project you want to do that's also about like a
similar topic. Do you want to like explore what that is? Yeah? So,
um something that I really wanted to do. And this
is another thing that we're kind of talking about of
like people not talking about like everything, like encompassing everything
in like one uh story. So Um, something very similar

(27:44):
to Partition happened in Ninete when East Pakislan became Bangladesh.
Um and a lot of my mom's families from there.
My grandma UM and a lot of her family currently
live there and it's again very similar to Partition. A
lot of violence, a lot of bloodshed, UM, And that story,

(28:04):
to me, UM deserves its own time and respect. And
I remember when I first talked about partition, They're like, oh,
you're gonna talk about this, and I'm like, I want
to mention it, but it is too big a story.
Just just kind of throw into what I'm doing because
it deserves way more than that. So that is another
story that I want to tell. And it actually celebrated

(28:24):
its fiftie anniversary last year. UM And from my understanding,
it's there are no memorials in either India or Pakistan
that commemorates, not commemorates, but showcases like how partition was,
Like we don't you know, there isn't like a like
here all the people who died, or here's this, or

(28:45):
here's like the statue of a bird or I don't
know whatever like that that you know that people. There's
no like communal place of grief. And it is my
understand that Bangladesh really does have these things. I believe
there's a Liberation museum and statues and there is a
Partition Museum UM that was founded in seventeen, but it

(29:06):
is not a government sanction thing. It's privately owned and
again it with it being in India. UM, there's also
a lot of barriers, like it's not a place I
can visit, um, and so um, that is something I
really want to do. My mom is actually trying to
go to Bungladesh UM this year, and it's been a
little bit difficult, I think, trying to obtain her visa.

(29:27):
But I hope she gets to go soon and I
hope I get to go with her. But UM, yeah,
that's other stories that I want to tell because I
feel like partition is is starting to kind of people
are starting to understand that, but I feel like ninety
one is just not there at all. Um. It's I think,
something that people seem to just forget about, and it's

(29:49):
just crazy to think. I'm like, it's that's not that
long for our country to be around, like seventy five years,
like fifty years, that's not a long time. UM. So
it's just like really insane when you think about it
that way, and um, especially when you think of how
ancient these lands are and just how new these places are. UM.

(30:11):
So yeah, that's something I would definitely love to tell. UM.
I would love for my next project to be on
that UM, but that decision is not up to me.
So hopefully, um, hopefully, it'll work out. Yeah, I really
hope so too. UM. I do really appreciate, I'm sure
everyone else is, to the fact that you're talking about

(30:33):
things that are just glossed over or not even mentioned usually. UM,
I hate that, like it's usually our job to educate people.
But in the meantime, you're doing a fantastic job and
I can't wait to see the other projects you do.
But obviously listen to Partition Everybody first. UM, yeah, that's

(30:54):
the show.