November 1, 2023 • 42 mins
Andrew talks with Garrison about cult formations within political groups.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All the media.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Andrew of the
YouTube channel Andrewism and I'm here.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
With Garrison Davis is also here. Hello, Welcome, Welcome. You
don't want to think about recently?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Cults?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh, one of one of my favorite topics culture, culture, fun.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the term cult is in some
ways just another pejorative for, you know, a group that
you don't like. Sure, you know, culture personality. Could we
use to describe a very passionate fan base. We use
cult classic to talk about, you know, really well known
and renowned pieces of media. You know, cults could also
(00:54):
actually ReFood high control groups that ruin people's lives, you know,
So that's something to consider. Yes, I know that there's
some debate within sociology but or should we use it,
should we not use it? But I don't think the
occasional misapplications of the term should distract us from the
very real cults that have existed or do exist out there.
(01:19):
Cults not just in the context of religion, but also
in the context of politics.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Absolutely, there's a I can I can think of many
many a political cult that rears it ZI whenever there's
a Popular Uprising.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
And plent recently recently picked up on the Edge Political
Cults Left and Right by Dennis Turisch and Tim Wilford.
And as I was going through it and going through
all the different examples and stuff, it really gave me
a clearer sense of how political cults operate. And so
(01:58):
today I'd like to take some time to discuss nature
of photical cults, and perhaps in future episodes we can
dive into some specific examples and case studies, of which
there are several, and many of them seem to be
of the Trotskyist variety.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Let me ask my commander in chief, Bob, Actually, if
I'm allowed to talk about this before I continue continue
this episode.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Visionists, revisionists everywhere?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
No continue please?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah. So, first, I guess we need to understand what
cults are in general. Typically, culture defined as a relatively
small group which is typically led by a charismatic and
self appointed leader who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering
devotion to a set of religious, spiritual, philosophical beliefs and practices,
(02:52):
or a particular person, object or goal which is considered
outside the norms of society. The American Family Foundation find
cults as a group of a group or movement exhibiting
great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea,
or thing, and employing unethical, manipulative, or cohesive techniques of
persuasion and control, for example, isolation from former friends and family, debilitation,
(03:18):
use of special methods to heighten suggestibility in subservience, powerful
group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment,
promotion of total dependence in the group, and fear of
leaving it designed to advance the goal to the group's leaders,
the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, of
(03:38):
the community. We can also define cults as organizations that
remold individuality to conform to the codes and needs of
the cult, institute taboos that preclude doubt and criticism, and
generate an elitist mentality, whereby members see themselves as loan
evangelists struggling to bring enlightenment to the hostile forces surrounding them.
(04:01):
There is only one truth, and that is the truth
espoused by the cult. Competing explanations are not merely inaccurate,
but degenerate cults don't have opponents, They have enemies and
frequently dream about their ultimate destruction. Now, cults are usually
associated with religion, particularly of the New Age Who and
(04:24):
self help variety. Sometimes it even gets into the kind
of multi level marketing schemes of business trainer or.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean, honestly, the lines between MLMs, primitive schemes and
cultures quite blaard disappoint essential oils all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, it's very fluid, dynamic because no it in practice,
a lot of those if they are not cults themselves,
they do pick up a lot of like cult ish tactics, behavior,
kind of loads of modes of interaction.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Honestly, could apply. That's a lot of businesses these days.
I mean I've seen more than a handful of medium
articles like this is why you should run your business
like a cult. Here seven cult tactics that you could
apply to your business to generate more productivity. Kind of
classic LinkedIn style stuff. Yeah. So in two thousand, which
(05:24):
is when the book Political Cults Left and Right was published,
it's cited that as many as four million Americans may
have been involved with cult groups, and they were around
five hundred cults active in Britain at the time, and
between three and five thousand in the United States, And honestly,
that can be an understatement.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Especially nowadays, even just with like how the Internet has
changed social interactions. Yeah, Like, it's a lot of aspects
of American culture have either been or always have been
kind of cultified. Whether that includes stuff like the Marvel
or Star Wars, Van Base or sports teams or your
(06:03):
little church who has this one pastor for like fifty years,
who controls what everyone wears and what everyone's allowed to say,
what everything one's allowed to watch, and who they're allowed
to vote for. Right, Like, it's a lot of aspects
that have been kind of now sucked into kind of
like the what like the modern nuclear family kind of
looks like a lot of the dynamics that make that
(06:25):
kind of churns that machine have a lot a lot
of cult aspects.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, Yeah, definitely, I don't. Honestly, that's where like, you know,
sociologists would contend with the tomb, right because honestly, there
are some definitions of a cult that literally would just
apply to pretty much any religious group. Sure, And what
have your thoughts on that? You know, it's it's it's
(06:52):
clear that although religious groups do have their issues, we're
speaking about a very specific and concentrated approach to that
type of organization. I mean, cults could be as small
as two people, right where one person is controlling the
(07:15):
other through claiming a position of privilege in sight. In fact,
a lot of cults start with just two people the
leader and they face acolyte, you know. And larger cults
can also have smaller subcults within them, as you know,
certain members branch out and pursue their own little fiefdoms.
Cults weaponize people's emotions to bring them into the fold.
(07:38):
I mean, you don't rationalize your way into the cults,
the people that Heaven's gates with like, huh, yeah, you
know that that really makes sense. I should probably investigate that.
According to all these studies and calculations, it really really
all lines up, you know. And similarly, most don't even
rationalize their way out of a cult. Cult recruitment and
(08:01):
cult dissolusion are mostly involving constantly shifting emotional states, which
helps the leader loss of subtlety and nu ones and
one's thoughts and feelings. And on top of that, cults
are very good at making members feel special. You know.
These minor insights are presented as profound revolutions. Commonly held
(08:23):
ideas are claimed as exclusive to the cult, boosting members'
sense of intellectual superiority. Where apocalypse is concerned, cults operate
under the assumption that they are the only ones who
can affert imminent catastrophe, fostering a belief in their infallibility,
and then members are isolated from their pre cult self
and life as their old beliefs are discarded and they're
(08:46):
consumed by cult activities, embracing a new sense of self
and riding high and the illusions and promises of a
glorious future with often destructive and violent means needed to
reach that goal. That description apply to both religious cults
and political cults.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And political cults. No, I was definitely viewing that through
even a more so political lens, just because that's, you know,
a lot of what we cover on the show. Yeah, No,
like that can even that can even also I mean,
it can obviously describe, like we've kind of been alluding
to these big like communist kind of cult groups that
operate particularly in North America. But honestly, that description can
(09:28):
also like be applied to just like a really shitty
like anarchist affinity group that's kind of being led by
one asshole. Like, it's certainly like this. It certainly applies beyond,
you know, the very you know, like political systems that
are more inherently authoritarian versus once that aren't. But you know,
if you look at like the Libertarian Party of the
(09:51):
United States, right, and all of their little local chapters, right,
they claimed to be anti authoritarian, but a lot of
a lot of their internal politics are very authoritarian. But
also like the specific local chapters, whenever they get new
people in and they kind of have someone new take
(10:12):
take charge of their chapter, it does have a little
kind of cult dynamic running. And I don't think that's
restricted just to those on the right of the political spectrum.
I think there's definitely aspects where you even see this
in like anarchist kind of compositions in at least at
least to the United States.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And in my observation, yeah, definitely, I think people here
cults and they immediately think like the destructive cults of
people of like the People's Temple of Jim Jones, right, Sure,
I mean those numbers through deliberate action abused, physically injured,
or killed other members of their own group and other people,
(10:51):
you know, and then then of course they doomsday cults
people think about like Having's skates who believe in some
kind of apocalypticism or millenarianism. But I want to talk
about political cults, right, and not just political cults on
the left, even though that's a very easy target to
(11:12):
go after, because you know, we are involved in these spaces.
But you know there are a lot of right wing
political culture as well. You know that we'll get we'll
get their due attention in due time. In fact, the
first political culture I do want to talk about in
another episode is a cult that really ran the gamut
from left to right. The leader of that cult the
(11:37):
last name rhymes with La Poach. But you know we'll
get to that in De.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Tex Okay, all right, all right, all right, I will,
I will, I will wait for the for the reveal.
Do you know who else really loves cults?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Who's that?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
The products and surfaces that pay both my bills and
some of your bills. So here is a perfect a
perfect space for an ad break. Thanks Chevron, if you're
advertising pushing pushing forward the great American tradition of cultish
behavior in the economic system, we are back have you
(12:25):
ever read the book Cultish?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So I classify my engagement with literature in two broad comps.
Books I've read in books I've skimmed. That's a book
I've skimmed.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Okay, all right, all right, it's it is it is.
It is definitely a fine book to skim. No, it's
definitely a good a good kind of a good, central
central piece of literature. Kind of on on this topic,
especially as it relates to, you know, getting out of
just like Heaven's Gate or scientology. Know that there's very like,
very obvious cults as starting to like look at the
(13:01):
general cultishness of like this entire continent and specifically the
United States. It's definitely a fun read if anyone is
interested in the topic.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah. I think it particularly focuses on cult language, right,
how the language of cultures used to manipulate people. Yeah.
So political cults, right, I mean, in a world where
established politics has failed us again and again, many have
to into radical politics right and left. I mean, as
someone who doesn't really consider myself left, but I do
(13:35):
like relate to it in some way, you know, typical anarchist.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, I'm on the same I'm in the same boat
as you there.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, I don't see radicalization towards left as necessarily a
bad thing. I mean, there a lot of rabbit holes
and pitfalls I think people fall into when they start
progressing in that tratructory. But you know, people's frustrations with
this feeling system are real, and it's that they seeking
radical alternatives. Some of those alternatives are terrible and should
be called out, but the premise of needing revolutionary system
(14:08):
change is not terrible, which is where I disagree with
the books kind of Centrist Bent, because it puts forward
the idea that revolution is like this dramatic thing, right,
Like how why would you reproposing that? Unless you were
called kind of vibe. It also ends up drawing some
equivalences between the radical left and the radical right. Sure,
(14:29):
although I will say as well, the book is primarily
discussed in Marxist Leninists when it talks about political cults
on the far left, and as we'll see the way
that Marxis Leninists structure things, it is somewhat conducive to
that particular formation. Not to slander all Marxist Leninists, but
the ideology is, you know, in some ways compatible in
(14:51):
many ways campatal with cult organization. Yeah, and I do
agree with the book's criticisms of the way that a
lot of our sis learninists specifically organize their movements and organizations.
But yet preamble side, the book defines political cults as
environments where individuals are encouraged to envision of future society
(15:14):
under their control. These members are often praised as visionary leaders,
referred to as cartres, who will hold significant power in
the new world order. At the same time, they are
criticized for not fully grasping the ideals of the founders
in the present. The slow progress toward realizing the cult
schools is attributed to their perceived lack of effort. The
(15:36):
leader is credited to the cult's achievements, while any setbacks
are blamed on the members perceived laziness. This combination of
grandiose vision and in culture that suppresses dissent create an
environment where questioning any aspect of the group's ideology is
met with intense fair and punishment, and political culturally do
present a danger. Most of them are marginal irrelevant, but
(16:00):
they do cause harm to the people within them and
the people outside of them, And if they managed to
take state power, like in Cambodia, it really has like
extremely disasterisk results, and I would call a full partter
cult leader. I would go as far as to say
that political cults have been mostly far right right. There
(16:21):
are some far left cults in the mix, which in
my opinion is even more depressing because it's like you're
so close and then yeah, there you go. So like
a lot of my eya is targeted towards political cults
and the left because it's like, wow, you know, almost there,
and then now you're stuck planting the flag of the
(16:44):
CCP in front of a university in the US or something.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah, many, many such cases.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Many such cases. All sorts of political cults demand to
their true believers be prepared to raise the group's inflexible
theology and strict organizational practices, much to the parallel society
and honestly the waste of the talents, energy, and commitment
to their members. For as long as I can remember,
(17:13):
cults have been a bad thing. You know, Cults suck, right,
Cults of all types really suck generally.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, generally, cults have kind of a bad rap.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine why. But then that lent
itself to the question of why do people join them
now they're stupid? How do they recruit and keep their members? Like?
What's going on there is that they just didn't know?
Is it that? Oh, cults, sign me up. I want
(17:45):
to take a very unorthodox approach and offer you, Garrison personally,
a guide to start your own cult.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Oh I I've thought a lot about this already, but
I am, I am. I'm very happy to, very happy
to take it out here. Let me make a new Google.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Doc and sure where drawn from the work of social
psychologists Anthony Pratcanis and Elliott Aaronson. So just follow these steps,
all right, all right? Step one create a distinct social reality.
Cults is slate members from external sources of information, making
(18:23):
them interact primarily with other cult members. This leads to
a shift in vocabulary towards the cult's lingo, making it
difficult for them to communicate with non cult members, which
leads to the uncritical acceptance of the cult's propaganda. The
cult's belief system must be rigid and all encompass in
the analysis, answers everything about the world, and there is
(18:44):
nothing beyond it. Left wing cults believe that their ideology
is the only valid lens through which to view the world.
Historic coalm zerialism. Well, right wing cults often center their
beliefs around conspiracy theories, particularly related to race. And I remember,
group's beliefs are beyond question or falsification, No tests or
(19:05):
challenges allowed that might lead to a reevaluation of these beliefs.
Any dissent or questioning is labeled as heresy or betrayal
or you know better kind of vibe. Step two, create
an in group and an outgroup. Cults emphasize differences between
there in group and perceived out groups, fostering loyalty among members.
(19:29):
It really doesn't matter who the out group is. You
just need to have an outgroup of some kind. So
for far right cults, it's like Jewish people, black people,
gay people, those are the necessary out groups. That's like
the bare minimum out group for most right wing groups. Right, Yeah,
it's like checklist, you know, typical. I mean, of course,
some go even further, and they might say something like
(19:49):
anybody who isn't a white Anglo Saxon Protestant is excluded
from their groups. But you know, sorry, became kind of irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Sorry, Catholics, you're not.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, yeah, RP Catholics, RP Irish, et cetera. And then
for far left cults, in order to I state the
members for the they can't just rely on like the
bourgeoisie as the old group, because I mean, the rest
of the left already has the bourgeoisie as an opponent.
So these far left cults have to create other out
(20:20):
groups to talk at the and I state their numbers
from as well.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, it becomes much more like seeped in ideology than
some all then, like compared to some of the right
wing cults, I think generally, the cults on the left
get get way more into creating kind of ideological distinctions
that separate the in group in the out group, and
there the ideology becomes the thing that like this is
(20:46):
like that becomes like the unquestionable thing that answers all
of the truths and all of like the problems of
the world, whether that's like an apocalyptic version where you're
talking about like some like collapse, or it's you know,
like a or even like a utopia version right where
you're talking about the Marxist Leninists Party is gonna see
(21:08):
seize power through the vanguard and control swaths of territory
and return power to the proletariat.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yes, and the true obstacles to that party are the revisionists,
the ultra leftists, et cetera, et cetera, the.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Post leftists, the anarchists. Yeah yeah, the social Democrats as
always the enemy to all sides, truly, the one, the
one that everyone everyone loves to hit.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah yeah, truly, come right. Next step step three build
commitment through dissonance reduction, so cults manipulate cognitive discerns by
gradually escalating members quitment the group's beliefs and actions. These
for sense of consistency and eventually conversion. You don't throw
(22:00):
a newbie into the kool aid right away. You start
small and you build up from there. Maybe first you
join a meeting, Then maybe you start voting in the meetings.
Then you hand it out flyers for the cult at
like a Black Lives Matter protest for example, and then
you sip in the kool aid. You know, it's like
baby steps. You don't throw them into the intilrating right away.
(22:22):
Next step four, maintain a rigid internal regime. Decision making
power is concentrating in the hands of a select elite
within the group. Formal controls and democratic processes are either
dismantled or ignored, even though the organization make claim to
(22:43):
be democratic on paper, and this environment helps to foster uncertainty,
fair and confusion among members, which actually helps to reinforce
their commitment to the group. Believe it or not. Five.
Step five establish the attractiveness and credibility of the leader.
(23:05):
Oh alrighty, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, makeover.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
This is this is why it's gonna be all over.
As soon as they start making twink cults, it's gonna
be whole swathps of above the population just are gonna
immediately fall victim.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Indeed, indeed, these grand or supreme leaders are legends, extraordinary
in their qualities, your twinkness. New age cults do this. Sorry,
new age cults do this with their sex best leaders
and stuff. But oh my god, I can't not mention
(23:41):
the veneration the political cults plays in their leaders, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I mean Hitler fans just obsessed with the guy. I
mean that goes on saying.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah. This applies to like to like, people who are
really into Hitler, people who are really into Stall, and
people who are really into now they've become this almost
like messionic figure.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean even before I understood cults better,
I could see very clearly early on, even you know,
before my readers theory and everything just being exposed to
you know that space, that there is a veritable cult
of Lenin, of the king family, of Mao, of Trotsky,
(24:22):
out of Stalin, and far be it from you to
point out their flaws and mistakes. Either it's denied outright
as outside propaganda, or it's kept on the download as
much as possible. Specifically North Korea situation, right, you often
see its supporters saying things like, yes, there are problems
with North Korea, and we do discuss our criticisms behind
(24:46):
closed doors, but openly, you know, it's full throttled, full
throated support, which I find very interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Step six, speaking of leaders, the leader needs privileges naturally
post our power, wealth accumulation, and often sexual favors as well.
Activities that are usually deemed unacceptable for ordinary members are
tolerated when apply it to leaders. Why because step seven
(25:17):
you make sure to deify the leader. Leaders, whether historical
or current, are elevated to a near defined status. They're
carrying on the legacy and defending it from revision. If
the og is already dead, you resolve the arguments by
referencing the sayings of these leaders rather than through independent analysis.
(25:39):
So it's not well, you know this is the case
because we examined X, Y, and Z factor. It's this
is the case because pus and AA said so in
nineteenth century text number three hundred and seventy six or whatever.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
It's it's six hundred pages long.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It's yeah. I mean, do you even read capital, Like, come.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
On, all all twenty five volumes?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I mean, no shares a capital. I mean it's a
good no.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Absolutely, If you want to read about like German factory conditions,
it is, and it's definitely it's eighteenth century German factory politics,
it is. It is an unparalleled book.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, definitely. Step eight you need to send members to proselytize.
Members need to constantly promote the benefits of the culture
others because that reinforces their own beliefs, that self generated
persuasion strengthens their commitment. And to be fair, this applies
even outside of cults, right like if in the habits
(26:47):
of sharing your particular ideology or religion or philosophy. The
process of sharing it often helps you to understand it
and also lends itself lends to you being food persuaded
by it. But in the context of everything else, in
context of the cults, it really becomes a feedback loop
quote which is shown of all interference from the outside world,
(27:08):
and in which only the liturgy of the cult has
any semblance of reality. Number nine. Step nine distract members
from undesirable thoughts. Overworking members. Keep them busy and exhausted,
far too busy and exhausted to question the group's direction
or beliefs. Social life friendships, those all revolve around the group,
(27:31):
and of course those friendships are entirely conditional on the
maintenance of uncritical enthusiasm for the party line. The book
uses the example of the Worker's Revolutionary Party in Britain,
which has a chapter in the book all to itself.
Despite neving able to muster more than one percent of
the vote in any elections, somehow this small organization managed
(27:53):
to put out a daily newspaper, keeping the members busy, busy, busy, busy, busy.
Next number two fixate members on a promised land. Cults
create an idealized vision of the future the contrast to
the current reality that promised lands maybe an alien spaceship
to the next dimension, a religious ethno state, or a
(28:14):
Marxist lenin as utopia. But in either case, the cult's
members are driven to work tirelessly to achieve this vision
fair and missed opportunities. They're constantly either recruiting, in front raising,
and kept in a constanst of luteness reinforcing the commitment
to the group's beliefs now Garrison. If you follow these steps,
(28:35):
you will have a fairly effective cult. But you know what,
just for you, I'm going to throw in a bonus
package of commonly held contradictions. You could call it the
double think package.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Okay, all right, I'm all yours. I'm really really desperate
at this point because I've kind of sunk cost fallacy
this right, We've already been I've already been learning for
like thirty minutes. I feel like I need to take
away more or more information at at at the end
because if I if I go and apply this now,
it's I feel like I'm only gonna half asset. I need.
(29:09):
I need one final, one final thing to kind of
click into place here.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Absolutely check this out right, love of liberty and support
for totalitarianism.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Right, these seem like two opposite things. How can how
can both of these codes?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You can hold them in your brains simultaneously? Right? Check this.
Right left wing cults would idealize a very democratic Soviet
community of the past. You know, some trotch gise groups
even depict an earlier period as democratic before being corrupted
by later leaders. And then right wing cults would claim
to champ on individual liberty but seek to cletail democratic
rights for those who disagree with So the democracy is upheld,
(29:52):
but it's theoretical. So it's like, yeah, democracy would also
come on the material conditions. You can't have democracy in
that kind of situation. Ah, so you're loving, yes, like
I am a democracy advocate, but also like democracy gets
in the way sometimes we have to like get past it.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you have like you
see what I'm cooking. We have the democracy of like
me and like my three friends, but not like you know, everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's like democracy, but it's like centered
around like a group like I you call it like
democratic centralism or something like that.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Anyway, that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
That's a great idea, Thank you. Next, we have belief
inequality and privilege for leaders.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
That last one team is kind of important.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, so you're going to be advocating for equality, but
then your leaders are going to have a bunch of privileges.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Because because we're spending all the time advocating, we but
a little bit something.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Extra exactly to the members. Well, they get to go
out there and spend time fundraising and stuff, but they
can't have a say and how the money is spent, right, Like,
we need that money, you know, for our personal projects
and our extremely high standard of livent. Check this out.
(31:23):
This is very common in religious cults, but also very
common in some political cults. Promotion of sexual morality and
sexual exploitation.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Huh well, okay, I'm not gonna I think I think
I'll stop the flag a long bit at this one.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Actually yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough. But yes, this is
it's terrible, It's really terrible.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
This is a very common thick.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah. Yeah, you know, cultural impose very strict sexual rules,
particularly on members, but yeah, particularly young women, and the
leaders will still like have a whole harem of female
members that they exploit. Stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
This is this is. This is even quite common with
like like hardline evangelical cults in the in the States,
whether that's kind of like a Quiverfull related or just
other kind of smaller evangelical sex that kind of form
their own kind of church cult dynamic. But that is
that's very specifically, very common among Christian cults because of
(32:29):
how much that like sexual authoritarianism is uh normalized in
a lot of and a lot of Protestant and Catholic
uh you know doctrine.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, exactly exactly. It's it's frighteningly common.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
And I've certainly heard that like, you know, like Stalinists
or Maoists specifically have have weird, weird sex stuff going on.
But I've I've never I've never quite poked that bear,
but I have i haven't heard that there's specifically really
a weird sex stuff around ballists.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
But yeah, and also really weird sex offron Mao allegedly
I've heard to bought his exploits. Yeah, moving along, last
one in this little bonus package. The rest will have
to like pay the twelve simple payments of nine hundred
and ninety nine dollars to get you know.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
That's that's that's one payment every month, but each month
I get more information about how to do it better.
That sounds a good That sounds a great deal.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Oh yeah, for sure, because I mean you'll be just
like swimming in cash by the time.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, because now I can I can use these and
I could pass down these steps to someone else, so
I'll I will already get that best and they could
pass it down.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Pass it down, and then you'll get kicked backs from
that as well.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
That's great. That's that's sounds looks like.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
A multi level scheme.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
It's like there's like a triangle and there's different like
tiers of it, and like you're you're technically what above me,
but I'm still pretty close to the top if I
if I keep bringing it down, then it gets wider
and wider. That's that sounds like a pretty good like
setup and.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I benefit and then you benefit.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
I mean, the triangle is actually the strongest shape structurally,
structure structurally, So check.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
This out right, demand for free speech and suppression of
descent right, so culture vigorously defend their right to free
speech even results into legal action. Are there's some very
infamous court cases involving in cults. Yes, and then they
will criticize rival organizations for you know, undemocratic practices, yet
(34:46):
within the wrongs of the group, dissent is actively suppressed.
You know.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah, this is like the scientology classic here.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, exactly. And members will be told like, yeah, you
should absolutely criticize. But then if they do criticize, you know,
they're going to be humiliated. They can very easily be expelled.
It's like a bait and switch. It's like, yeah, we
give you this platform to criticize, so then we know
who to target and to tear it down. Very very common,
(35:17):
very very useful when you want to, you know, strengthen
the integrity of your cult. All right, and one last
quick game, let's ask ourselves.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Really you're just like.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, only if you call right now. So
let's ask ourselves. Am I already in a political cult?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Great? Good question. Actually, this is something people should ask
themselves pretty frequently.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yes. Yes. And to figure that out, we have to
look at the conditions that indicate the presence of ideological totalism,
a tam coined by American psychiatrist Robert J. Lifter to
give a name to the mood of absolute convictions, which
embeds ideas so deeply in people's heads that they grow
inoculated against doubt. So what are the conditions he identifies
(36:10):
as indicating the presence of ideological totalism. Well, there's milieu control,
mystical manipulation, the demand for purity, the cult of confession,
the secret science loading, the language, doctrine over person, and
the dispensing of existence. What do those mean one at
a time? Miliu control involves techniques that dominate a person's
(36:34):
contact with the outside world and communication with themselves. Right,
so that idea of cults isolating people prevented them from
testing the groups of ideas against external alternatives. Mystical manipulation
is where cults claim a sense of higher purpose and
portrayali ideology as the vanguard of social development. That's all
encompass in. This is the essential ideology for the future
(36:56):
of the world. Demand for purity is of course, where
members are like convicted of their superiority and purity in
their beliefs. The core ideas are essential, and anybody who
is a non member as a critic or as a
critic is an accomplice in some kind of conspiracy against
the cult's ideas. The cult of confession is where members
(37:18):
are required to confess their inadequacies and failures in group meetings,
which helps to break down individuality and intimidating and helps
to intimidate potential dis centers. The sacred science, through the
group's ideology, is presented as a sacred moral vision, so
you can't really question its basic assumption.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
The immortal science of mark system.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
The immortal science indeed loading the language is what we
were talking about earlier, where cults use repetitive phrases and
though terminating and cliches to prevent critical analysis and limit
thinking and feeling. Doctrine over person is where historical myths
are created or altered so align with the cult's ideology.
(37:58):
And then the dispenser of existence is we have only
those who adhance the group's ideology a fully human or
good well. All others are seen as agents of evil
or barriers to progress. How Black Will Delivery has been
useful for you in determining whether or not you and
a cult, as well as determine how you can create
your own well.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Something that that my boss has told me a lot
is that there's there's very little difference between a cult
and a really good party. So, but the biggest difference
is that a party hopefully will be over right, it's
(38:40):
it should just be like one night. So a good
party is a cult that lasts like twelve hours tops.
So you can't apply a lot of these ideas to
putting together a really fun house party as long as
that it's there's a mandatory, like a disclin ship of
(39:01):
the party after after you know, everyone wakes up the
next morning.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
So I'm imagining like uh a DJ like yes, yes,
like like DJ miil you control.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
We are, we are putting gets back on no more,
no more, ska back to gets exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah. The future lies right here in the.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Space exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah. But I mean, in all seriousness, physical culture really sad.
You know, the prayers, people's frustrations, the desire for change,
the prey. And what's worse is that they prey on
their desire for affiliation. Yeah. One of our most deeply
rooted desires to identify with social groups, to develop an
(39:58):
identity on a familiar your local, ethnic, or national scale.
And it's really sad that people get lost in that source.
You remember that, no matter what the group you choose
affiliate with should be able to handle descent. I think
that's a very good baseline upon which to affiliate or
(40:22):
to determine your affiliation. Healthy groups, organizations, and movements are
not weakened by descent. They need dissent, disagreement, and conflict
to survive. Frequent and important disagreement makes movements and organizations stronger.
It allows the individuals within them to maintain a level
of independence and allows ideas to evolve through challenge rather
(40:43):
than to exist purely due to the stifling atmosphere of conformity. Today,
we spoke about the techniques employed by both left wing
and right wing cults to maintain higher levels of conformity, activism,
and intolerance among their members. I want to emphasize our
discussion doesn't imply that movements striving for societal change are
(41:03):
inherently bound to become obscure cults. Those that are critical
examination of modern society is not warranted. But it's important
to remember that while our will challenges require political natsis
an action, the organizations that we form to address these
challenges must try to genuinely seek understanding and transformation while
(41:29):
preserving the freedom and individuality of its members. I still
a lot to say create a real community, not a cult.
That's all. Until next time, I've been Andrew of the
channel Andrewism and next we will be discussing the one
(41:51):
and only the Loathsome Lindone Lerbs Peace.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at
coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,
All the media.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Andrew of the
YouTube channel Andrewism and I'm here.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
With Garrison Davis is also here. Hello, Welcome, Welcome. You
don't want to think about recently?
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Cults?
Speaker 3 (00:28):
Oh, one of one of my favorite topics culture, culture, fun.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
Yeah, yeah, I mean the term cult is in some
ways just another pejorative for, you know, a group that
you don't like. Sure, you know, culture personality. Could we
use to describe a very passionate fan base. We use
cult classic to talk about, you know, really well known
and renowned pieces of media. You know, cults could also
(00:54):
actually ReFood high control groups that ruin people's lives, you know,
So that's something to consider. Yes, I know that there's
some debate within sociology but or should we use it,
should we not use it? But I don't think the
occasional misapplications of the term should distract us from the
very real cults that have existed or do exist out there.
(01:19):
Cults not just in the context of religion, but also
in the context of politics.
Speaker 3 (01:25):
Absolutely, there's a I can I can think of many
many a political cult that rears it ZI whenever there's
a Popular Uprising.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
And plent recently recently picked up on the Edge Political
Cults Left and Right by Dennis Turisch and Tim Wilford.
And as I was going through it and going through
all the different examples and stuff, it really gave me
a clearer sense of how political cults operate. And so
(01:58):
today I'd like to take some time to discuss nature
of photical cults, and perhaps in future episodes we can
dive into some specific examples and case studies, of which
there are several, and many of them seem to be
of the Trotskyist variety.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
Let me ask my commander in chief, Bob, Actually, if
I'm allowed to talk about this before I continue continue
this episode.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Visionists, revisionists everywhere?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
No continue please?
Speaker 2 (02:32):
Yeah. So, first, I guess we need to understand what
cults are in general. Typically, culture defined as a relatively
small group which is typically led by a charismatic and
self appointed leader who excessively controls its members, requiring unwavering
devotion to a set of religious, spiritual, philosophical beliefs and practices,
(02:52):
or a particular person, object or goal which is considered
outside the norms of society. The American Family Foundation find
cults as a group of a group or movement exhibiting
great or excessive devotion or dedication to some person, idea,
or thing, and employing unethical, manipulative, or cohesive techniques of
persuasion and control, for example, isolation from former friends and family, debilitation,
(03:18):
use of special methods to heighten suggestibility in subservience, powerful
group pressures, information management, suspension of individuality or critical judgment,
promotion of total dependence in the group, and fear of
leaving it designed to advance the goal to the group's leaders,
the actual or possible detriment of members, their families, of
(03:38):
the community. We can also define cults as organizations that
remold individuality to conform to the codes and needs of
the cult, institute taboos that preclude doubt and criticism, and
generate an elitist mentality, whereby members see themselves as loan
evangelists struggling to bring enlightenment to the hostile forces surrounding them.
(04:01):
There is only one truth, and that is the truth
espoused by the cult. Competing explanations are not merely inaccurate,
but degenerate cults don't have opponents, They have enemies and
frequently dream about their ultimate destruction. Now, cults are usually
associated with religion, particularly of the New Age Who and
(04:24):
self help variety. Sometimes it even gets into the kind
of multi level marketing schemes of business trainer or.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Oh yeah, absolutely, yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
I mean, honestly, the lines between MLMs, primitive schemes and
cultures quite blaard disappoint essential oils all that stuff.
Speaker 3 (04:42):
Yeah, it's very fluid, dynamic because no it in practice,
a lot of those if they are not cults themselves,
they do pick up a lot of like cult ish tactics, behavior,
kind of loads of modes of interaction.
Speaker 2 (04:57):
Honestly, could apply. That's a lot of businesses these days.
I mean I've seen more than a handful of medium
articles like this is why you should run your business
like a cult. Here seven cult tactics that you could
apply to your business to generate more productivity. Kind of
classic LinkedIn style stuff. Yeah. So in two thousand, which
(05:24):
is when the book Political Cults Left and Right was published,
it's cited that as many as four million Americans may
have been involved with cult groups, and they were around
five hundred cults active in Britain at the time, and
between three and five thousand in the United States, And honestly,
that can be an understatement.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
Especially nowadays, even just with like how the Internet has
changed social interactions. Yeah, Like, it's a lot of aspects
of American culture have either been or always have been
kind of cultified. Whether that includes stuff like the Marvel
or Star Wars, Van Base or sports teams or your
(06:03):
little church who has this one pastor for like fifty years,
who controls what everyone wears and what everyone's allowed to say,
what everything one's allowed to watch, and who they're allowed
to vote for. Right, Like, it's a lot of aspects
that have been kind of now sucked into kind of
like the what like the modern nuclear family kind of
looks like a lot of the dynamics that make that
(06:25):
kind of churns that machine have a lot a lot
of cult aspects.
Speaker 2 (06:31):
Yeah, Yeah, definitely, I don't. Honestly, that's where like, you know,
sociologists would contend with the tomb, right because honestly, there
are some definitions of a cult that literally would just
apply to pretty much any religious group. Sure, And what
have your thoughts on that? You know, it's it's it's
(06:52):
clear that although religious groups do have their issues, we're
speaking about a very specific and concentrated approach to that
type of organization. I mean, cults could be as small
as two people, right where one person is controlling the
(07:15):
other through claiming a position of privilege in sight. In fact,
a lot of cults start with just two people the
leader and they face acolyte, you know. And larger cults
can also have smaller subcults within them, as you know,
certain members branch out and pursue their own little fiefdoms.
Cults weaponize people's emotions to bring them into the fold.
(07:38):
I mean, you don't rationalize your way into the cults,
the people that Heaven's gates with like, huh, yeah, you
know that that really makes sense. I should probably investigate that.
According to all these studies and calculations, it really really
all lines up, you know. And similarly, most don't even
rationalize their way out of a cult. Cult recruitment and
(08:01):
cult dissolusion are mostly involving constantly shifting emotional states, which
helps the leader loss of subtlety and nu ones and
one's thoughts and feelings. And on top of that, cults
are very good at making members feel special. You know.
These minor insights are presented as profound revolutions. Commonly held
(08:23):
ideas are claimed as exclusive to the cult, boosting members'
sense of intellectual superiority. Where apocalypse is concerned, cults operate
under the assumption that they are the only ones who
can affert imminent catastrophe, fostering a belief in their infallibility,
and then members are isolated from their pre cult self
and life as their old beliefs are discarded and they're
(08:46):
consumed by cult activities, embracing a new sense of self
and riding high and the illusions and promises of a
glorious future with often destructive and violent means needed to
reach that goal. That description apply to both religious cults
and political cults.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
And political cults. No, I was definitely viewing that through
even a more so political lens, just because that's, you know,
a lot of what we cover on the show. Yeah, No,
like that can even that can even also I mean,
it can obviously describe, like we've kind of been alluding
to these big like communist kind of cult groups that
operate particularly in North America. But honestly, that description can
(09:28):
also like be applied to just like a really shitty
like anarchist affinity group that's kind of being led by
one asshole. Like, it's certainly like this. It certainly applies beyond,
you know, the very you know, like political systems that
are more inherently authoritarian versus once that aren't. But you know,
if you look at like the Libertarian Party of the
(09:51):
United States, right, and all of their little local chapters, right,
they claimed to be anti authoritarian, but a lot of
a lot of their internal politics are very authoritarian. But
also like the specific local chapters, whenever they get new
people in and they kind of have someone new take
(10:12):
take charge of their chapter, it does have a little
kind of cult dynamic running. And I don't think that's
restricted just to those on the right of the political spectrum.
I think there's definitely aspects where you even see this
in like anarchist kind of compositions in at least at
least to the United States.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
And in my observation, yeah, definitely, I think people here
cults and they immediately think like the destructive cults of
people of like the People's Temple of Jim Jones, right, Sure,
I mean those numbers through deliberate action abused, physically injured,
or killed other members of their own group and other people,
(10:51):
you know, and then then of course they doomsday cults
people think about like Having's skates who believe in some
kind of apocalypticism or millenarianism. But I want to talk
about political cults, right, and not just political cults on
the left, even though that's a very easy target to
(11:12):
go after, because you know, we are involved in these spaces.
But you know there are a lot of right wing
political culture as well. You know that we'll get we'll
get their due attention in due time. In fact, the
first political culture I do want to talk about in
another episode is a cult that really ran the gamut
from left to right. The leader of that cult the
(11:37):
last name rhymes with La Poach. But you know we'll
get to that in De.
Speaker 3 (11:42):
Tex Okay, all right, all right, all right, I will,
I will, I will wait for the for the reveal.
Do you know who else really loves cults?
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Who's that?
Speaker 3 (11:51):
The products and surfaces that pay both my bills and
some of your bills. So here is a perfect a
perfect space for an ad break. Thanks Chevron, if you're
advertising pushing pushing forward the great American tradition of cultish
behavior in the economic system, we are back have you
(12:25):
ever read the book Cultish?
Speaker 2 (12:28):
So I classify my engagement with literature in two broad comps.
Books I've read in books I've skimmed. That's a book
I've skimmed.
Speaker 3 (12:37):
Okay, all right, all right, it's it is it is.
It is definitely a fine book to skim. No, it's
definitely a good a good kind of a good, central
central piece of literature. Kind of on on this topic,
especially as it relates to, you know, getting out of
just like Heaven's Gate or scientology. Know that there's very like,
very obvious cults as starting to like look at the
(13:01):
general cultishness of like this entire continent and specifically the
United States. It's definitely a fun read if anyone is
interested in the topic.
Speaker 2 (13:12):
Yeah. I think it particularly focuses on cult language, right,
how the language of cultures used to manipulate people. Yeah.
So political cults, right, I mean, in a world where
established politics has failed us again and again, many have
to into radical politics right and left. I mean, as
someone who doesn't really consider myself left, but I do
(13:35):
like relate to it in some way, you know, typical anarchist.
Speaker 3 (13:40):
Yeah, I'm on the same I'm in the same boat
as you there.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
Yeah, I don't see radicalization towards left as necessarily a
bad thing. I mean, there a lot of rabbit holes
and pitfalls I think people fall into when they start
progressing in that tratructory. But you know, people's frustrations with
this feeling system are real, and it's that they seeking
radical alternatives. Some of those alternatives are terrible and should
be called out, but the premise of needing revolutionary system
(14:08):
change is not terrible, which is where I disagree with
the books kind of Centrist Bent, because it puts forward
the idea that revolution is like this dramatic thing, right,
Like how why would you reproposing that? Unless you were
called kind of vibe. It also ends up drawing some
equivalences between the radical left and the radical right. Sure,
(14:29):
although I will say as well, the book is primarily
discussed in Marxist Leninists when it talks about political cults
on the far left, and as we'll see the way
that Marxis Leninists structure things, it is somewhat conducive to
that particular formation. Not to slander all Marxist Leninists, but
the ideology is, you know, in some ways compatible in
(14:51):
many ways campatal with cult organization. Yeah, and I do
agree with the book's criticisms of the way that a
lot of our sis learninists specifically organize their movements and organizations.
But yet preamble side, the book defines political cults as
environments where individuals are encouraged to envision of future society
(15:14):
under their control. These members are often praised as visionary leaders,
referred to as cartres, who will hold significant power in
the new world order. At the same time, they are
criticized for not fully grasping the ideals of the founders
in the present. The slow progress toward realizing the cult
schools is attributed to their perceived lack of effort. The
(15:36):
leader is credited to the cult's achievements, while any setbacks
are blamed on the members perceived laziness. This combination of
grandiose vision and in culture that suppresses dissent create an
environment where questioning any aspect of the group's ideology is
met with intense fair and punishment, and political culturally do
present a danger. Most of them are marginal irrelevant, but
(16:00):
they do cause harm to the people within them and
the people outside of them, And if they managed to
take state power, like in Cambodia, it really has like
extremely disasterisk results, and I would call a full partter
cult leader. I would go as far as to say
that political cults have been mostly far right right. There
(16:21):
are some far left cults in the mix, which in
my opinion is even more depressing because it's like you're
so close and then yeah, there you go. So like
a lot of my eya is targeted towards political cults
and the left because it's like, wow, you know, almost there,
and then now you're stuck planting the flag of the
(16:44):
CCP in front of a university in the US or something.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Yeah, many, many such cases.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Many such cases. All sorts of political cults demand to
their true believers be prepared to raise the group's inflexible
theology and strict organizational practices, much to the parallel society
and honestly the waste of the talents, energy, and commitment
to their members. For as long as I can remember,
(17:13):
cults have been a bad thing. You know, Cults suck, right,
Cults of all types really suck generally.
Speaker 3 (17:19):
Yeah, generally, cults have kind of a bad rap.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Yeah, yeah, I can't imagine why. But then that lent
itself to the question of why do people join them
now they're stupid? How do they recruit and keep their members? Like?
What's going on there is that they just didn't know?
Is it that? Oh, cults, sign me up. I want
(17:45):
to take a very unorthodox approach and offer you, Garrison personally,
a guide to start your own cult.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
Oh I I've thought a lot about this already, but
I am, I am. I'm very happy to, very happy
to take it out here. Let me make a new Google.
Speaker 2 (18:01):
Doc and sure where drawn from the work of social
psychologists Anthony Pratcanis and Elliott Aaronson. So just follow these steps,
all right, all right? Step one create a distinct social reality.
Cults is slate members from external sources of information, making
(18:23):
them interact primarily with other cult members. This leads to
a shift in vocabulary towards the cult's lingo, making it
difficult for them to communicate with non cult members, which
leads to the uncritical acceptance of the cult's propaganda. The
cult's belief system must be rigid and all encompass in
the analysis, answers everything about the world, and there is
(18:44):
nothing beyond it. Left wing cults believe that their ideology
is the only valid lens through which to view the world.
Historic coalm zerialism. Well, right wing cults often center their
beliefs around conspiracy theories, particularly related to race. And I remember,
group's beliefs are beyond question or falsification, No tests or
(19:05):
challenges allowed that might lead to a reevaluation of these beliefs.
Any dissent or questioning is labeled as heresy or betrayal
or you know better kind of vibe. Step two, create
an in group and an outgroup. Cults emphasize differences between
there in group and perceived out groups, fostering loyalty among members.
(19:29):
It really doesn't matter who the out group is. You
just need to have an outgroup of some kind. So
for far right cults, it's like Jewish people, black people,
gay people, those are the necessary out groups. That's like
the bare minimum out group for most right wing groups. Right, Yeah,
it's like checklist, you know, typical. I mean, of course,
some go even further, and they might say something like
(19:49):
anybody who isn't a white Anglo Saxon Protestant is excluded
from their groups. But you know, sorry, became kind of irrelevant.
Speaker 3 (19:57):
Sorry, Catholics, you're not.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Yeah, yeah, RP Catholics, RP Irish, et cetera. And then
for far left cults, in order to I state the
members for the they can't just rely on like the
bourgeoisie as the old group, because I mean, the rest
of the left already has the bourgeoisie as an opponent.
So these far left cults have to create other out
(20:20):
groups to talk at the and I state their numbers
from as well.
Speaker 3 (20:24):
Yeah, it becomes much more like seeped in ideology than
some all then, like compared to some of the right
wing cults, I think generally, the cults on the left
get get way more into creating kind of ideological distinctions
that separate the in group in the out group, and
there the ideology becomes the thing that like this is
(20:46):
like that becomes like the unquestionable thing that answers all
of the truths and all of like the problems of
the world, whether that's like an apocalyptic version where you're
talking about like some like collapse, or it's you know,
like a or even like a utopia version right where
you're talking about the Marxist Leninists Party is gonna see
(21:08):
seize power through the vanguard and control swaths of territory
and return power to the proletariat.
Speaker 2 (21:17):
Yes, and the true obstacles to that party are the revisionists,
the ultra leftists, et cetera, et cetera, the.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
Post leftists, the anarchists. Yeah yeah, the social Democrats as
always the enemy to all sides, truly, the one, the
one that everyone everyone loves to hit.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah yeah, truly, come right. Next step step three build
commitment through dissonance reduction, so cults manipulate cognitive discerns by
gradually escalating members quitment the group's beliefs and actions. These
for sense of consistency and eventually conversion. You don't throw
(22:00):
a newbie into the kool aid right away. You start
small and you build up from there. Maybe first you
join a meeting, Then maybe you start voting in the meetings.
Then you hand it out flyers for the cult at
like a Black Lives Matter protest for example, and then
you sip in the kool aid. You know, it's like
baby steps. You don't throw them into the intilrating right away.
(22:22):
Next step four, maintain a rigid internal regime. Decision making
power is concentrating in the hands of a select elite
within the group. Formal controls and democratic processes are either
dismantled or ignored, even though the organization make claim to
(22:43):
be democratic on paper, and this environment helps to foster uncertainty,
fair and confusion among members, which actually helps to reinforce
their commitment to the group. Believe it or not. Five.
Step five establish the attractiveness and credibility of the leader.
(23:05):
Oh alrighty, yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, makeover.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
This is this is why it's gonna be all over.
As soon as they start making twink cults, it's gonna
be whole swathps of above the population just are gonna
immediately fall victim.
Speaker 2 (23:20):
Indeed, indeed, these grand or supreme leaders are legends, extraordinary
in their qualities, your twinkness. New age cults do this. Sorry,
new age cults do this with their sex best leaders
and stuff. But oh my god, I can't not mention
(23:41):
the veneration the political cults plays in their leaders, right, yeah, yeah, yeah,
I mean Hitler fans just obsessed with the guy. I
mean that goes on saying.
Speaker 3 (23:50):
Yeah. This applies to like to like, people who are
really into Hitler, people who are really into Stall, and
people who are really into now they've become this almost
like messionic figure.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
Yeah. Yeah, I mean even before I understood cults better,
I could see very clearly early on, even you know,
before my readers theory and everything just being exposed to
you know that space, that there is a veritable cult
of Lenin, of the king family, of Mao, of Trotsky,
(24:22):
out of Stalin, and far be it from you to
point out their flaws and mistakes. Either it's denied outright
as outside propaganda, or it's kept on the download as
much as possible. Specifically North Korea situation, right, you often
see its supporters saying things like, yes, there are problems
with North Korea, and we do discuss our criticisms behind
(24:46):
closed doors, but openly, you know, it's full throttled, full
throated support, which I find very interesting.
Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Step six, speaking of leaders, the leader needs privileges naturally
post our power, wealth accumulation, and often sexual favors as well.
Activities that are usually deemed unacceptable for ordinary members are
tolerated when apply it to leaders. Why because step seven
(25:17):
you make sure to deify the leader. Leaders, whether historical
or current, are elevated to a near defined status. They're
carrying on the legacy and defending it from revision. If
the og is already dead, you resolve the arguments by
referencing the sayings of these leaders rather than through independent analysis.
(25:39):
So it's not well, you know this is the case
because we examined X, Y, and Z factor. It's this
is the case because pus and AA said so in
nineteenth century text number three hundred and seventy six or whatever.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
It's it's six hundred pages long.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
It's yeah. I mean, do you even read capital, Like, come.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
On, all all twenty five volumes?
Speaker 2 (26:07):
I mean, no shares a capital. I mean it's a
good no.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Absolutely, If you want to read about like German factory conditions,
it is, and it's definitely it's eighteenth century German factory politics,
it is. It is an unparalleled book.
Speaker 2 (26:24):
Yeah, definitely. Step eight you need to send members to proselytize.
Members need to constantly promote the benefits of the culture
others because that reinforces their own beliefs, that self generated
persuasion strengthens their commitment. And to be fair, this applies
even outside of cults, right like if in the habits
(26:47):
of sharing your particular ideology or religion or philosophy. The
process of sharing it often helps you to understand it
and also lends itself lends to you being food persuaded
by it. But in the context of everything else, in
context of the cults, it really becomes a feedback loop
quote which is shown of all interference from the outside world,
(27:08):
and in which only the liturgy of the cult has
any semblance of reality. Number nine. Step nine distract members
from undesirable thoughts. Overworking members. Keep them busy and exhausted,
far too busy and exhausted to question the group's direction
or beliefs. Social life friendships, those all revolve around the group,
(27:31):
and of course those friendships are entirely conditional on the
maintenance of uncritical enthusiasm for the party line. The book
uses the example of the Worker's Revolutionary Party in Britain,
which has a chapter in the book all to itself.
Despite neving able to muster more than one percent of
the vote in any elections, somehow this small organization managed
(27:53):
to put out a daily newspaper, keeping the members busy, busy, busy, busy, busy.
Next number two fixate members on a promised land. Cults
create an idealized vision of the future the contrast to
the current reality that promised lands maybe an alien spaceship
to the next dimension, a religious ethno state, or a
(28:14):
Marxist lenin as utopia. But in either case, the cult's
members are driven to work tirelessly to achieve this vision
fair and missed opportunities. They're constantly either recruiting, in front raising,
and kept in a constanst of luteness reinforcing the commitment
to the group's beliefs now Garrison. If you follow these steps,
(28:35):
you will have a fairly effective cult. But you know what,
just for you, I'm going to throw in a bonus
package of commonly held contradictions. You could call it the
double think package.
Speaker 3 (28:47):
Okay, all right, I'm all yours. I'm really really desperate
at this point because I've kind of sunk cost fallacy
this right, We've already been I've already been learning for
like thirty minutes. I feel like I need to take
away more or more information at at at the end
because if I if I go and apply this now,
it's I feel like I'm only gonna half asset. I need.
(29:09):
I need one final, one final thing to kind of
click into place here.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Absolutely check this out right, love of liberty and support
for totalitarianism.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
Right, these seem like two opposite things. How can how
can both of these codes?
Speaker 2 (29:27):
You can hold them in your brains simultaneously? Right? Check this.
Right left wing cults would idealize a very democratic Soviet
community of the past. You know, some trotch gise groups
even depict an earlier period as democratic before being corrupted
by later leaders. And then right wing cults would claim
to champ on individual liberty but seek to cletail democratic
rights for those who disagree with So the democracy is upheld,
(29:52):
but it's theoretical. So it's like, yeah, democracy would also
come on the material conditions. You can't have democracy in
that kind of situation. Ah, so you're loving, yes, like
I am a democracy advocate, but also like democracy gets
in the way sometimes we have to like get past it.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean you have like you
see what I'm cooking. We have the democracy of like
me and like my three friends, but not like you know, everybody.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah yeah, yeah, it's like democracy, but it's like centered
around like a group like I you call it like
democratic centralism or something like that.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
Anyway, that's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (30:29):
That's a great idea, Thank you. Next, we have belief
inequality and privilege for leaders.
Speaker 3 (30:50):
That last one team is kind of important.
Speaker 2 (30:53):
Yeah, so you're going to be advocating for equality, but
then your leaders are going to have a bunch of privileges.
Speaker 3 (30:59):
Because because we're spending all the time advocating, we but
a little bit something.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
Extra exactly to the members. Well, they get to go
out there and spend time fundraising and stuff, but they
can't have a say and how the money is spent, right, Like,
we need that money, you know, for our personal projects
and our extremely high standard of livent. Check this out.
(31:23):
This is very common in religious cults, but also very
common in some political cults. Promotion of sexual morality and
sexual exploitation.
Speaker 3 (31:35):
Huh well, okay, I'm not gonna I think I think
I'll stop the flag a long bit at this one.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Actually yeah, yeah, yeah, fair enough. But yes, this is
it's terrible, It's really terrible.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
This is a very common thick.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah. Yeah, you know, cultural impose very strict sexual rules,
particularly on members, but yeah, particularly young women, and the
leaders will still like have a whole harem of female
members that they exploit. Stuff.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
This is this is. This is even quite common with
like like hardline evangelical cults in the in the States,
whether that's kind of like a Quiverfull related or just
other kind of smaller evangelical sex that kind of form
their own kind of church cult dynamic. But that is
that's very specifically, very common among Christian cults because of
(32:29):
how much that like sexual authoritarianism is uh normalized in
a lot of and a lot of Protestant and Catholic
uh you know doctrine.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Yeah, exactly exactly. It's it's frighteningly common.
Speaker 3 (32:48):
And I've certainly heard that like, you know, like Stalinists
or Maoists specifically have have weird, weird sex stuff going on.
But I've I've never I've never quite poked that bear,
but I have i haven't heard that there's specifically really
a weird sex stuff around ballists.
Speaker 2 (33:09):
But yeah, and also really weird sex offron Mao allegedly
I've heard to bought his exploits. Yeah, moving along, last
one in this little bonus package. The rest will have
to like pay the twelve simple payments of nine hundred
and ninety nine dollars to get you know.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
That's that's that's one payment every month, but each month
I get more information about how to do it better.
That sounds a good That sounds a great deal.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Oh yeah, for sure, because I mean you'll be just
like swimming in cash by the time.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
Yeah, because now I can I can use these and
I could pass down these steps to someone else, so
I'll I will already get that best and they could
pass it down.
Speaker 2 (33:51):
Pass it down, and then you'll get kicked backs from
that as well.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
That's great. That's that's sounds looks like.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
A multi level scheme.
Speaker 3 (33:59):
It's like there's like a triangle and there's different like
tiers of it, and like you're you're technically what above me,
but I'm still pretty close to the top if I
if I keep bringing it down, then it gets wider
and wider. That's that sounds like a pretty good like
setup and.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I benefit and then you benefit.
Speaker 3 (34:14):
I mean, the triangle is actually the strongest shape structurally,
structure structurally, So check.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
This out right, demand for free speech and suppression of
descent right, so culture vigorously defend their right to free
speech even results into legal action. Are there's some very
infamous court cases involving in cults. Yes, and then they
will criticize rival organizations for you know, undemocratic practices, yet
(34:46):
within the wrongs of the group, dissent is actively suppressed.
You know.
Speaker 3 (34:52):
Yeah, this is like the scientology classic here.
Speaker 2 (34:55):
Yeah, exactly. And members will be told like, yeah, you
should absolutely criticize. But then if they do criticize, you know,
they're going to be humiliated. They can very easily be expelled.
It's like a bait and switch. It's like, yeah, we
give you this platform to criticize, so then we know
who to target and to tear it down. Very very common,
(35:17):
very very useful when you want to, you know, strengthen
the integrity of your cult. All right, and one last
quick game, let's ask ourselves.
Speaker 3 (35:28):
Really you're just like.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, only if you call right now. So
let's ask ourselves. Am I already in a political cult?
Speaker 3 (35:44):
Great? Good question. Actually, this is something people should ask
themselves pretty frequently.
Speaker 2 (35:49):
Yes. Yes. And to figure that out, we have to
look at the conditions that indicate the presence of ideological totalism,
a tam coined by American psychiatrist Robert J. Lifter to
give a name to the mood of absolute convictions, which
embeds ideas so deeply in people's heads that they grow
inoculated against doubt. So what are the conditions he identifies
(36:10):
as indicating the presence of ideological totalism. Well, there's milieu control,
mystical manipulation, the demand for purity, the cult of confession,
the secret science loading, the language, doctrine over person, and
the dispensing of existence. What do those mean one at
a time? Miliu control involves techniques that dominate a person's
(36:34):
contact with the outside world and communication with themselves. Right,
so that idea of cults isolating people prevented them from
testing the groups of ideas against external alternatives. Mystical manipulation
is where cults claim a sense of higher purpose and
portrayali ideology as the vanguard of social development. That's all
encompass in. This is the essential ideology for the future
(36:56):
of the world. Demand for purity is of course, where
members are like convicted of their superiority and purity in
their beliefs. The core ideas are essential, and anybody who
is a non member as a critic or as a
critic is an accomplice in some kind of conspiracy against
the cult's ideas. The cult of confession is where members
(37:18):
are required to confess their inadequacies and failures in group meetings,
which helps to break down individuality and intimidating and helps
to intimidate potential dis centers. The sacred science, through the
group's ideology, is presented as a sacred moral vision, so
you can't really question its basic assumption.
Speaker 3 (37:35):
The immortal science of mark system.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
The immortal science indeed loading the language is what we
were talking about earlier, where cults use repetitive phrases and
though terminating and cliches to prevent critical analysis and limit
thinking and feeling. Doctrine over person is where historical myths
are created or altered so align with the cult's ideology.
(37:58):
And then the dispenser of existence is we have only
those who adhance the group's ideology a fully human or
good well. All others are seen as agents of evil
or barriers to progress. How Black Will Delivery has been
useful for you in determining whether or not you and
a cult, as well as determine how you can create
your own well.
Speaker 3 (38:19):
Something that that my boss has told me a lot
is that there's there's very little difference between a cult
and a really good party. So, but the biggest difference
is that a party hopefully will be over right, it's
(38:40):
it should just be like one night. So a good
party is a cult that lasts like twelve hours tops.
So you can't apply a lot of these ideas to
putting together a really fun house party as long as
that it's there's a mandatory, like a disclin ship of
(39:01):
the party after after you know, everyone wakes up the
next morning.
Speaker 2 (39:06):
So I'm imagining like uh a DJ like yes, yes,
like like DJ miil you control.
Speaker 3 (39:17):
We are, we are putting gets back on no more,
no more, ska back to gets exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah. The future lies right here in the.
Speaker 3 (39:28):
Space exactly exactly.
Speaker 2 (39:36):
Yeah. But I mean, in all seriousness, physical culture really sad.
You know, the prayers, people's frustrations, the desire for change,
the prey. And what's worse is that they prey on
their desire for affiliation. Yeah. One of our most deeply
rooted desires to identify with social groups, to develop an
(39:58):
identity on a familiar your local, ethnic, or national scale.
And it's really sad that people get lost in that source.
You remember that, no matter what the group you choose
affiliate with should be able to handle descent. I think
that's a very good baseline upon which to affiliate or
(40:22):
to determine your affiliation. Healthy groups, organizations, and movements are
not weakened by descent. They need dissent, disagreement, and conflict
to survive. Frequent and important disagreement makes movements and organizations stronger.
It allows the individuals within them to maintain a level
of independence and allows ideas to evolve through challenge rather
(40:43):
than to exist purely due to the stifling atmosphere of conformity. Today,
we spoke about the techniques employed by both left wing
and right wing cults to maintain higher levels of conformity, activism,
and intolerance among their members. I want to emphasize our
discussion doesn't imply that movements striving for societal change are
(41:03):
inherently bound to become obscure cults. Those that are critical
examination of modern society is not warranted. But it's important
to remember that while our will challenges require political natsis
an action, the organizations that we form to address these
challenges must try to genuinely seek understanding and transformation while
(41:29):
preserving the freedom and individuality of its members. I still
a lot to say create a real community, not a cult.
That's all. Until next time, I've been Andrew of the
channel Andrewism and next we will be discussing the one
(41:51):
and only the Loathsome Lindone Lerbs Peace.
Speaker 1 (42:04):
It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at
coolzonmedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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