July 9, 2025 • 29 mins
James talks to Theo Henderson, host of We The Unhoused, about the impact of protests in LA on the unhoused community, and how people at the intersection of the undocumented and the unhoused community are coping with federal, state, and local crackdowns.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All the media. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It's
me James today and I'm very lucky to be joined
by Theo Henderson, who is host of the extent wee
the Unhoused podcast. How are you doing today here?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (00:16):
You know, hanging in there in this turbulent time, but
doing okay. How are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah? Good?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Also also hanging in there a lot of like being
out late in the streets and then going up early
to podcasts. But you know, it's okay, it's good. I
I'm really happy to have you here today because I
want to talk about like the intersection of protesting, being unhused,
and being undocumented. These are all things that like sometimes
(00:42):
people can look at as unique issues, right they go
siloed off from one another, and they're very much not
and they're very much connected by a few axes, one
of which is policing and stay violence. To start off with,
maybe you could explain, like, in terms of the Los
Angeles protests we've seen the last the impact on unhoused people,
(01:02):
and specifically like because of where they are, right the
heightened depacts on unhoused people.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
That's okay.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
The reality of the situation is this is that when
there are protests, not just the conversation that's current now,
unhouse people inadvertently get the runoff of the aggression, the
tear gas, the uncertainty of being able to find a
safe space to sleep, because when we do, as protesters
that are housed protests, we encompass the entire area that
(01:32):
usually is these staple or the landmarks of places where
we should protest. For example, downtown LA where I currently live,
is where the city Hall is, It's where major police
stations are, It's where we have major landmarks like Hall
of Justice and those places, and many unhoused people congregate
and live near those places. And in the none will
(01:56):
say the best of times, but in the most neutral
of times, they have to be on a tiptoe stands
from being swept because they have to deal with the
sweeps in addition to the unrest that's going on now.
What I have found is that because I live near
an sro, the sleeping has become a difficulty because the
constant helicopters that are swooping through all night, and the
(02:19):
constant ambulances or the sirens that going on, and the
distance and in front of you, near where you reside,
most recently the projectile shooting of rubber bullets or maybe
real bullets or whatever, or the chance and things of
that that all coomfiity of noise creates an unstable environment
(02:41):
where in the best of times, where people you requires
eight hours sleep and house people may get free to
maybe four hours if at but giving that what's going
on in their peak times where they're trying to sleep,
they did not. A lot of them during the next
day looked very sleep worn. They looked very exhausted, and
it tells because they don't have a place where they
(03:02):
can just you know, leave. They don't they can't just
jump to in an hotel. It's just it's not reality.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, I definitely noticed that, like the noise obviously, like
I work with audios, so I'm thinking about noise and like, like,
for instance, I was going around with my podcast recorder
here right and like constantly having to adjust the levels
down because the background noise was so like you said,
they're always helicopters, there's people chanting, the cops are occasionally
(03:28):
just driving a high speed with siren on. It was
very noise, and I was thinking about the people who
are living there and how hard it must be to
get some rest. And how like, I was speaking to
one guy who was living down there, probably about noon,
just walking from Union Station to downtown, and he was saying,
how like, he lived with anxiety, so he didn't want
(03:48):
to be present in the protest, but he was supportive
of his unhoused community members. But I can imagine, you know,
the anxiety doesn't get any better for him if he's
not sleeping.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Right, they can compounds, yes, and not mentioned the the
frailties of life. Maybe having disabilities or maybe have helped
other health chologists that preclude being able to have a neutral,
a stationary place, And you just can't get up and
go at a moment's notice. You have to require planning
or you know, or then you can get swept up
into the you know, the matrix of the protesters and
(04:20):
get swept along with how they're treating them. So it's
not an easy place to navigate, and it's not a
place as unhoused people. That's just one more obstacle to
a hurdle to overcome and try to just stay above
the frame.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, And you can't obviously just leave your stuff
and you risk losing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
All of it absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
One thing that like I have observed extensively is that,
like in the undocumented community, a lot of people end
up on house, right, Is that something you've noticed, like
in your time, like out on the streets and like
in sro housing. Are there a lot of undocumented people
this common?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yes, there is a percentage of undocumented people. Statistics vary
because of the volatility of trying to record someone that's undocumented,
but there are many of them are employed in stay
laborers or low in wage workers that are working in
mom and pop restaurants or creative kind of entrepreneur type
(05:22):
of pursuits in order to survive. One of the things
that has been becoming much more in the four recently,
which why I say the intersections are so important to
understand and the philosophy and the ideology of it, is
that many people that are against a lot of the undocumentation,
violence and things of that nature are not necessarily as
(05:45):
vocal as about the hostility that on house people go through,
or you don't see them on the frontline protesting as
deeply as what's going on today, because when you see swepes,
you don't see many of the protesters out there as
fighting cops and things is speaking out against it. You
don't see them making chance or really making the situation
(06:07):
much more intense and changing. What you do see is
polite conversation or politicians curving the conversation to shape it
in the way that the unhoused person is the bad guy.
They're affecting business, they are going to the bathroom all
over the place. They are not productive citizens and should
be treated usly as violently as possibly they can. Conversely, one,
(06:31):
we don't understand that when we have the undocumented community
that's been targeted, like in San Diego most recently here
and near Whittier, targeting undocumented unhoused people going to sweeps
now and looking for undocumented people, how that plays a
part two and we need the same intensity, we need
the same attention and understanding. Housing is one of the
(06:54):
conversations that we need to have. Compassionate, dignified housing is
the conversation we need to have. And these punitative measures
doesn't work with undocumented people that are housed or maybe
in a position or financial position a little bit more
stabler Evan on house community undocumented people, but the end
result is still the same violence.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right, Yeah, definitely, And like, as you said, there's been
there have been several instances now that people who are
unhoused or we actually don't know. I suppose what we
know is that immigration authorities have attempted to raid shelters
for unhoused people, right Exactly. I think people sometimes don't
join the dots on these things, right because they don't
(07:35):
have either they don't have lived experience or they just
haven't thought about it deeply. But like, let's break down
how damaging that is, right, Like, if people who are
undocumented are afraid to go to shelters, then that means
that they're not going to be able to access the
resources that are there, right, Like, do you see that happening?
Do you see like when they raid shelters people thinking
(07:58):
I won't go there, or I'm sure you see on
house people avoiding other things if they think that's going
to mean an interaction with law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Right, But also too, we must break this down even further.
Most on house people want help and services. That's even
undocumented people. And the thing with is they're not taking
anything from the people that pay taxes. But the product
the conversation has been shaped in such a deliterious and
negative fashion that it makes people much more hesitant to
(08:27):
seek out those services. So add on to Trump's harmful
rhetoric and seeing ice roll up. Even if let's say,
for example, they just roll up on there and they're
denied entry, it still sends the message that they are
hunting you down. And most reasonable people that have those
situations is all it takes is someone that agrees with
(08:49):
the negative rhetoric that Trump espouses and that works in
the shelter to step aside and let them come and
start sweeping and documented people and on house people need
to have the reinsurance and the confidence that they will
hold the line and be able to have safeguards in
place so they can be safely serviced and helped as well.
And I know the conversation is starting to shift in
(09:12):
other places, like in the mutual aid groups, because a
lot of times mutual aid groups and mutual aid services
are allowing all types of all walks of life for people,
and we are trying to create a safer place where
they can get the services and they don't have to
worry about it. But it's becoming much more difficult, and
so we are creating safeguards and stop gaps in place
to make it very difficult or Ice to do these
(09:36):
illegal or these harmful type of sweeps.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, I think that's really good because it is a concern,
right even if you're just if you're a mutual aid
group like our friends at Bread Block, right, like who
feed people in San Diego. But if you put out
there that you're going to be feeding people, and then
ICE know that people are going to gather to receive food,
that's a new thing you have to worry about, right,
Like it's a new.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
There is another new concern.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
There are right wing groups that are in trying to
infiltrate mutual A groups and I do need to say this,
so it's very important. They're infiltrating mutual aid groups in
efforts to aid ICE. And so what they're trying to
do is they befriend mutual eight groups. And there is
a video I saw of this guy stating that he
had worked for immigrants day labors. So he gets them,
(10:24):
loads them all into the truck and he states he
promises them a job. And this guy's recording them and
their reactions, and you know, they seem to be in
a tranquil very convivial kind of atmosphere, and he drives
up in front of the ICE Administration building and then
yells out for ICE to come get them, and they scatter.
(10:45):
So the second thing that also that's going on is
too that these organizations, these right maggot groups are utilizing
and trying to get personal information from mutual aid groups
and to dock them to other mutual A groups and
to try to target or to harass people that are
reaching out trying to help the unhoused community or immigrant
(11:05):
community or whatever community did you serve as that are
dealing with undocumented immigrants.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
They're doing at as well.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, yeah, and that harms everyone, right, even documented folks
who run house to are citizens as we lose those services. Yeah,
let's take a little break and we're going to come
back and talk more about this. Okay, all right, we
(11:33):
are back. One of the things we've spoken about is
like how undocumented folks often end up on the street, right,
something I've seen a lot here in San Diego, at least,
it is undocumented families ending up on the street, right,
And that can mean that their kids don't get access
to education. It makes it so much harder for them
(11:53):
to access services are they and anyone else can access
Maybe you could explain to people, because again I don't
think that this is something that people consider. But we
spoke about it, right when we spoke about sweeps. Democratic
governors all around the country and mayors and other legislators
(12:14):
and executive office people have claimed to be like in
solidarity with migrants, right, they said they stand with their
undocumented community. But at the same time, they have spent
the last decade demonizing the unhoused community and passing laws
in a state of the case of California, right, that
make it easy to consign someone to like a mental healthhold,
(12:35):
just for being on housed, just for not being able
to make rent. Can you explain how that intersection has
created a tool for oppression which is now being wielded
against undocumented people. And as you said to me before
we recorded, like when we build this oppressive apparatus, it
can always be wielded against people who we don't think
it should be wielded against.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Right, Well, that's the very deep question is a question,
and I'm going to try to break apart of it
like a piece of bread in order hopefully to get
the whole meals digested. So let's start off with understanding
how in order for us to be able to criminalize
a human being, we must demonize them. And in order
for us to demonize them, we must create a narrative
(13:18):
that is easily digestible but quick to point out when
we're confronted with our humanity or our empathy or lack thereof.
So when the conversation turns to the un housed community,
for years, there's always has been on house people like
being out there, they're drug addicted, they're mentally ill, they're criminals,
they don't want help, or they don't want services, and
(13:39):
the peelback that layer of onion to explain the nuances
like the services are not equally provided, the services are
not tailored to what the people need, and that conversation
gets lost in the quagmire. Now bringing up into the
four is like we have the conversation of immigration, and
there has been the right wing steady diet of misinformation
(14:03):
or disinformation about a migrant or a documented people getting benefits,
living the life high on the hall, living luxuriously on
a snap or food stamps and other type of benefits,
and hardworking people can't get it, and that is just
simply not true. But it's been fostered to such a
degree that in this administration that we have down with Trump,
(14:26):
he's creating these narratives of MS.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Thirteen is let loose across the country.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
They are targeting hardworking people, killing them off, and gang
violence is that are all time high, which is not true. Statistically,
we are at the most downward slope that we've had
in over twenty to thirty years. But the fact of it,
it's sears in people's minds. Who doesn't take the necessary
steps to break down the stereotypes and understand how that
(14:52):
is not true and it's harming, then we have un
choose this recipe of disinformation, the idea that some people
believe that they are worthy and their immigrants background, and
some are unworthy. Like when I say this statement, and
I always keep saying this, and I've been saying this
for a few years because it's an uncomfortable conversation, is
some people are invested in their own impression. And when
(15:15):
I say this, this is what I mean. Some people,
like for example, in the unhoused community that I had
been unhoused for over eight years, I would hear them
say these kind of statements, and I in the beginning
became uneasy. Then I was like, you know what, I
have to challenge this because this person believes that they
are well and good and they should be helped, and
(15:35):
these other people should not be helped because they are
unworthy on house and that sends off the dog whistle,
and that sends off these justification for people that don't
like on house people anyway to utilize that in the
forefront of their explanation and reasoning in order to continue
to create unitative resources and resolutions. Say, for example, the
(15:56):
San Jose mayor Laurie who is now working to criminal
onhoused people and says that if you turn down services
three times, you go to jail, you are susceptible to
be arrested Jesus, or you could create like in Tennessee
now it is a six year felony to be unhoused
and lodging out in public spaces. It's so easy to
(16:17):
do that people who are housed do not understand it.
Like in Los Angeles, like forty one eighteen is the
new Jim Crow. It is against the law to sit
sleepers lie. We don't talk about enough about Grant's past
which has given police much more leeway, and other cities
has been much more in basically a frenzy on trying
(16:38):
to create the most unitative legislation that they possibly can
against unhoused people.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So these are the end results of this.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
So when we start to say it, and I always
say this in my show, if you can't help a person,
don't harm them.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
I will add further.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
With doctor King says, there's nothing much more dangerous than
sincere ignorance or will for stupidity.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, I think that's a really it's a really good
thing way to put it, because like there is so
much I mean, I don't know if it comes out
of like you say, then source stupidity, but like so
many of these things actually end up at the same spot, right,
like increased numbers of people detained, more money for private prisons,
more money for police, right exactly, Like it shouldn't matter
(17:25):
to us where someone's sleeping, right, we don't want that
person to go to jail. They haven't done anything wrong.
And I think it's something that like now it's maybe
a good time for people to talk about that, right.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
And incidentally that's not helping the situation anyway, because once
they got jail. Now they have a criminal record, and
we know how we are against criminals and trying to
find jobs and housing, find housing, So where are they
going to go? So they're going back into the state
of houselessness and the state of I would say non existence,
but the state of punitative consequences just for being trying
to exist.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, and then if you know they were misdemeanor, they'll
get another misdemeanor just for living on the street again,
and then they'll stack misdemeanors and end up with lengthy sentence.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
But in the case of Tennessee, that's a felony. It's
not a misdemeanor. It's a six year piece prison sentence.
So let's say, for example, that they find you sleeping
out on the streets and they take you to jail.
Now that you have a six year felony. Now, as
you know, people that have felonies are it's much more
difficult to find jobs, to vote, and things like that.
To take it to even further, like trying to find housing,
(18:28):
they're filling out housing applications and the acts. If you've
been charged with a felony, they have to put that there.
Trying to find housing. You know, what's the odds that
they're going to get housing charge being on house? So
we need to look at these things and says, why
is it that our major knee jerk reaction is always
going to penalize poor people?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Because this is what this boils down to.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
They have they have not the idea in order to
keep poor people set upon other poor people is believe
that they're deserving better treatment than other poor people that
look like for them, and the okay with how they're
being treated, in the faith into the delusion that they
won't be affected by it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a good point that like
this deserving the good migrant bag, myrant, deserving poor and
deserving poor, like, all that does is it justifies violence
against whoever it is stigmatizing, and like we should just
I guess say pretty like in case people aren't aware,
I guess like when we look at Robert Paxton's book
The Anatomia of Fascism, Paxton talks about the motivating passions
(19:28):
of fascism, and one of them is this idea that
there is a scapegroat group which is to blame for
decline and like, yes, we can see the Trump administration
doing that with migrants. We can see democratic mayors blaming
unhoused people for the decline of their cities, right, for
their failure to manage budgets, for their inability to do
anything other than send a fire hose of money to
(19:48):
the cops. Right, it's completely endemic. I know in San
Diego told Gloria loves to demonize onnhouse people, right, and
he has done for years. And you know we're now
in a state where we're closing down our libraries for
more time, make it even harder for people to access services.
A place where people can access the internet. If you
want to make that housing application, now you can't go
(20:10):
to the library one more day we can do it.
It's like these two things are like different heads of
the same hydra.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
I guess let me point out to like, for example,
when I was on the streets as well. The library
is a lifeline for many reasons. And we have a
heat wave, many on house people go to the library
to stay cool. When we have a store storm, a rainstorm,
many onhouse people goes there. Many on house people unfortunately
use it as a burd bad place because they don't
(20:39):
want to smell bad. Despite society opinion, they'll offer enough
free showers or places where and house people can safely shower,
get their things laundered in a way. So they have
to create solutions in order to survive and sustain themselves
in their lives. So the library is more than just
supplying the books and reading and in housing application, it
(21:00):
is a lifeline in many respects where on house people
can be able to tether on to a semblance of normalcy,
if you will.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, totally. It's another thing that I noticed, actually is
I was walking around downtown LA. It's something I noticed
here in San Diego there are not accessible bathrooms for
people exactly, right, and maybe other people, Like if you've
been out in the streets in LA or wherever you live,
you might have noticed this too, Right, Like, I was
very lucky a resident of downtown let me into their
(21:29):
house so they could use a bathroom. But like, this
is a city with millions of people, with billions of
dollars in budget. Right, the cops had five helicopters. I
refuse to believe that it's not possible for them to
create a place for people to use the bathroom safely.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
And therein lies a conundrum is that people with the
demanding restrooms and the city says that they can't financially
sustain them, or they utilize every reason in the world
to discourage a believe it's going to discourage a bottle
functions from unhoused people, which is ridiculous because we're still
going to have to go to the restroom no matter
(22:06):
we're living in the street or earn a home. That's
one universal equity that's never going to change. And the
thing most importantly of it is is that I have
a story that I tell about my own experience with it.
During the pandemic, I had broken my leg and I
had it was on a walker and everything shut down.
(22:26):
There were no public porter parties, there were no bathrooms,
and the only way I could get to a bathroom
that at the time that was open was Starbucks. So
and Starbucks was like almost a half a mile away,
so I had to hobble there and they wouldn't let
me in because they were because I was on house
and they felt that I was going to take a
bath into the bathroom and I just needed to use
(22:48):
the restroom. And this hurdle is another hurdle that many
unhouse people have to go through, which is why they
use libraries, which is why they use public facilities. But
let's say, for example, Union Station, they do liberately goal
and shut off. They have like five stalls, and then
they shut off the other bathroom and lock that up,
and they'll lock the other bathroom down the other part
of the Union station.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Union Station is a busy place.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Why it makes no sense that this constant, less, punitative,
this insided or illogical viewpoint that's being ruled over to
the city and it runs over, it spills over in
every way possible. That makes it very clear to be
poor is the most horrible thing in the world.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, everybody, take another break here and then we're going
to come back and finish up. Okay, way are back,
so what I want to finish up with. And I
think it's always a good thing when folks are out
(23:49):
in the street, right, Like I guess not always, but
I don't really in support people being out in the street.
There are people who are out in the street and
they're realizing that things are worse than they thought. Right.
There are a lot of people who have gone out
in the street this week thinking that they had a
First Amendment right to protest and being tear gased or
shot with rubber bullets. And maybe they haven't been in
areas where they see unhoused people right, or they've been
(24:12):
managed to sort of remain ignoring the scale of the problem,
and now they're realizing how bad things are and they
want to help. How do they do that in a
way that it's respectful and in a way that doesn't
harm someone while trying to help them? Do you think, like,
where should they start that process?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Not to self andngrandize myself, but I have a podcast
that I've created when I lived on the street, which
is called Weedy and House And in that conversation from
there's a bevy of episodes that talk about these very
same issues. One the understanding of empathy. The second thing
is to be educated on the realities and the differences
(24:50):
of unhoused community members, the nuances, how to approach unhouse people,
how to sustain a relationship with unhoused people, and how
to create a mutual aid or a group of people
that come in and check in on unhoused people in
order for them to help shepherd them along the realities
of houselessness.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Many people have many skills in many groups.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
That's when I find with Mutual Aid and they're able
to tap into those skills in order to get some
unhoused people some services, some help, some notice, some pressure
to get places or get them placed or in the
hospital or whatever it is they need. The first step
is to, you know, listen in on some of the episodes,
hear their stories and understand their stories. I always asks
(25:31):
on house people, what is the best way for us
to help you? Because what would help me being on
house is very different than what a mother that's up
to that's fleeing domestic abuse. There's a lot of things
that I cannot foresee that she has to foresee for
the safety and life and her life and her children's life.
And so she would have different other solutions that would
(25:53):
not fit my solution or my way of helping me.
And we must understand houselessness is not monolith. It is
very layered many reasons why people are on the streets,
from political to being burned out on the system, and
to just trying to survive day to day.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, I think it's a really good answer toly like,
it's not something you can just as you say, it's
not a monolith. It's not something that where everyone is
the same, certainly, like my experience with un house neighbors
that I have and then undocumented on house folks. You know,
everyone has different concerns, right, Everyone has different needs, even
little things like I remember trying to help a family
(26:32):
and you know they had come to the US from
Venezuela and they had different food preferences, just just shit
like that. If you can make someone more comfortable just
by asking it so much, it's so much easier to do.
I wonder, like you've been downtown the last few nights,
Like it's rough, right, it's traumatizing, Like do you see
(26:52):
people expressing solidarity with unhoused people? Like do you see
because there is a feeling of it can be very
ice relating that there can also be like at times
I've said this before a lot, but like I feel
very taken care of because I see strangers feeding each other.
I see strangers washing each other's eyes out. I see
(27:13):
people just taking care of each other, if each other
in small ways, bringing water, bringing food. Do you feel
like the unhoused community is being shown that same care
and affection like during these protests, I have not.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Seen it in this instance.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I noticed that we were in the George Floyd protest,
there was more of an awakening about the unhoused communities
because they kept inhabiting and they started to do that. Definitely,
I will like to believe that that has continued to
spill over. I noticed sometimes when the protests of what's
going on in Palestine, many Palestine or protesters will walk
past the Mutual Aid stations. Some would stop and say something,
(27:50):
or some would just keep right on going.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Again.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I think it's one of the things one of the
narrative's successes of the right wing narratives is to late
and house people, make sure that's their issue is completely different.
And to that way, you can be able to continue
to demonize and criminalize and house people with the respect
the people that are waving the gods are flag or
waving flags of Mexico. They can feel safe in the
(28:16):
delusion that they're safe. And these people are then nereword
Wells and we are not. We are we are legitimately
fighting for freedom and house people are just fighting just
to get their next hit, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
So yeah, and I think until we realize all our
struggles are connected, like we we wait, you know, this
is very clearly something that neoliberalism has done right, Like
it's pursued identity politics in a way that doesn't lift
people up so much as it splits them apart, and
it stops us seeing all our struggles are connected. See
is there anything else you wanted to share with people
(28:49):
before we before we wrap up today.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I think we covered the long and short of it.
You know, it's yeah, we can. This is just a
primer on some of the insights. Yes, it's a very
fluid situation. There's going to be new insights and new
observations as this protest unravels and we will get to
see what this administration what next harm that they're going
to do to vulnerable people.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
If people want to follow your podcast or follow you elsewhere,
where can they find you?
Speaker 3 (29:18):
They can find me on iHeartMedia, on they can find
me on where they find that podcast. I'm on iHeart Apples, Spotify, Amazon,
anywhere you find your podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I'm there.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Great. Thank you so much for your time, south Mentha,
that was a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Thank you, and hopefully we'll meet again in a light
of understanding. Jeez, thank you. It could happen. Here is
a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from
Cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or
check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
You listen to podcasts, you can now find sources for
It could happen here listened directly in episode descriptions.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Thanks for listening.
All the media. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. It's
me James today and I'm very lucky to be joined
by Theo Henderson, who is host of the extent wee
the Unhoused podcast. How are you doing today here?
Speaker 2 (00:16):
Thank you?
Speaker 3 (00:16):
You know, hanging in there in this turbulent time, but
doing okay. How are you today?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Yeah? Good?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Also also hanging in there a lot of like being
out late in the streets and then going up early
to podcasts. But you know, it's okay, it's good. I
I'm really happy to have you here today because I
want to talk about like the intersection of protesting, being unhused,
and being undocumented. These are all things that like sometimes
(00:42):
people can look at as unique issues, right they go
siloed off from one another, and they're very much not
and they're very much connected by a few axes, one
of which is policing and stay violence. To start off with,
maybe you could explain, like, in terms of the Los
Angeles protests we've seen the last the impact on unhoused people,
(01:02):
and specifically like because of where they are, right the
heightened depacts on unhoused people.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
That's okay.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
The reality of the situation is this is that when
there are protests, not just the conversation that's current now,
unhouse people inadvertently get the runoff of the aggression, the
tear gas, the uncertainty of being able to find a
safe space to sleep, because when we do, as protesters
that are housed protests, we encompass the entire area that
(01:32):
usually is these staple or the landmarks of places where
we should protest. For example, downtown LA where I currently live,
is where the city Hall is, It's where major police
stations are, It's where we have major landmarks like Hall
of Justice and those places, and many unhoused people congregate
and live near those places. And in the none will
(01:56):
say the best of times, but in the most neutral
of times, they have to be on a tiptoe stands
from being swept because they have to deal with the
sweeps in addition to the unrest that's going on now.
What I have found is that because I live near
an sro, the sleeping has become a difficulty because the
constant helicopters that are swooping through all night, and the
(02:19):
constant ambulances or the sirens that going on, and the
distance and in front of you, near where you reside,
most recently the projectile shooting of rubber bullets or maybe
real bullets or whatever, or the chance and things of
that that all coomfiity of noise creates an unstable environment
(02:41):
where in the best of times, where people you requires
eight hours sleep and house people may get free to
maybe four hours if at but giving that what's going
on in their peak times where they're trying to sleep,
they did not. A lot of them during the next
day looked very sleep worn. They looked very exhausted, and
it tells because they don't have a place where they
(03:02):
can just you know, leave. They don't they can't just
jump to in an hotel. It's just it's not reality.
Speaker 1 (03:07):
Yeah, I definitely noticed that, like the noise obviously, like
I work with audios, so I'm thinking about noise and like, like,
for instance, I was going around with my podcast recorder
here right and like constantly having to adjust the levels
down because the background noise was so like you said,
they're always helicopters, there's people chanting, the cops are occasionally
(03:28):
just driving a high speed with siren on. It was
very noise, and I was thinking about the people who
are living there and how hard it must be to
get some rest. And how like, I was speaking to
one guy who was living down there, probably about noon,
just walking from Union Station to downtown, and he was saying,
how like, he lived with anxiety, so he didn't want
(03:48):
to be present in the protest, but he was supportive
of his unhoused community members. But I can imagine, you know,
the anxiety doesn't get any better for him if he's
not sleeping.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
Right, they can compounds, yes, and not mentioned the the
frailties of life. Maybe having disabilities or maybe have helped
other health chologists that preclude being able to have a neutral,
a stationary place, And you just can't get up and
go at a moment's notice. You have to require planning
or you know, or then you can get swept up
into the you know, the matrix of the protesters and
(04:20):
get swept along with how they're treating them. So it's
not an easy place to navigate, and it's not a
place as unhoused people. That's just one more obstacle to
a hurdle to overcome and try to just stay above
the frame.
Speaker 1 (04:34):
Yeah, yeah, And you can't obviously just leave your stuff
and you risk losing.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
All of it absolutely so.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
One thing that like I have observed extensively is that,
like in the undocumented community, a lot of people end
up on house, right, Is that something you've noticed, like
in your time, like out on the streets and like
in sro housing. Are there a lot of undocumented people
this common?
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Yes, there is a percentage of undocumented people. Statistics vary
because of the volatility of trying to record someone that's undocumented,
but there are many of them are employed in stay
laborers or low in wage workers that are working in
mom and pop restaurants or creative kind of entrepreneur type
(05:22):
of pursuits in order to survive. One of the things
that has been becoming much more in the four recently,
which why I say the intersections are so important to
understand and the philosophy and the ideology of it, is
that many people that are against a lot of the undocumentation,
violence and things of that nature are not necessarily as
(05:45):
vocal as about the hostility that on house people go through,
or you don't see them on the frontline protesting as
deeply as what's going on today, because when you see swepes,
you don't see many of the protesters out there as
fighting cops and things is speaking out against it. You
don't see them making chance or really making the situation
(06:07):
much more intense and changing. What you do see is
polite conversation or politicians curving the conversation to shape it
in the way that the unhoused person is the bad guy.
They're affecting business, they are going to the bathroom all
over the place. They are not productive citizens and should
be treated usly as violently as possibly they can. Conversely, one,
(06:31):
we don't understand that when we have the undocumented community
that's been targeted, like in San Diego most recently here
and near Whittier, targeting undocumented unhoused people going to sweeps
now and looking for undocumented people, how that plays a
part two and we need the same intensity, we need
the same attention and understanding. Housing is one of the
(06:54):
conversations that we need to have. Compassionate, dignified housing is
the conversation we need to have. And these punitative measures
doesn't work with undocumented people that are housed or maybe
in a position or financial position a little bit more
stabler Evan on house community undocumented people, but the end
result is still the same violence.
Speaker 1 (07:15):
Right, Yeah, definitely, And like, as you said, there's been
there have been several instances now that people who are
unhoused or we actually don't know. I suppose what we
know is that immigration authorities have attempted to raid shelters
for unhoused people, right Exactly. I think people sometimes don't
join the dots on these things, right because they don't
(07:35):
have either they don't have lived experience or they just
haven't thought about it deeply. But like, let's break down
how damaging that is, right, Like, if people who are
undocumented are afraid to go to shelters, then that means
that they're not going to be able to access the
resources that are there, right, Like, do you see that happening?
Do you see like when they raid shelters people thinking
(07:58):
I won't go there, or I'm sure you see on
house people avoiding other things if they think that's going
to mean an interaction with law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
Right, But also too, we must break this down even further.
Most on house people want help and services. That's even
undocumented people. And the thing with is they're not taking
anything from the people that pay taxes. But the product
the conversation has been shaped in such a deliterious and
negative fashion that it makes people much more hesitant to
(08:27):
seek out those services. So add on to Trump's harmful
rhetoric and seeing ice roll up. Even if let's say,
for example, they just roll up on there and they're
denied entry, it still sends the message that they are
hunting you down. And most reasonable people that have those
situations is all it takes is someone that agrees with
(08:49):
the negative rhetoric that Trump espouses and that works in
the shelter to step aside and let them come and
start sweeping and documented people and on house people need
to have the reinsurance and the confidence that they will
hold the line and be able to have safeguards in
place so they can be safely serviced and helped as well.
And I know the conversation is starting to shift in
(09:12):
other places, like in the mutual aid groups, because a
lot of times mutual aid groups and mutual aid services
are allowing all types of all walks of life for people,
and we are trying to create a safer place where
they can get the services and they don't have to
worry about it. But it's becoming much more difficult, and
so we are creating safeguards and stop gaps in place
to make it very difficult or Ice to do these
(09:36):
illegal or these harmful type of sweeps.
Speaker 1 (09:38):
Yeah, I think that's really good because it is a concern,
right even if you're just if you're a mutual aid
group like our friends at Bread Block, right, like who
feed people in San Diego. But if you put out
there that you're going to be feeding people, and then
ICE know that people are going to gather to receive food,
that's a new thing you have to worry about, right,
Like it's a new.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
There is another new concern.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
There are right wing groups that are in trying to
infiltrate mutual A groups and I do need to say this,
so it's very important. They're infiltrating mutual aid groups in
efforts to aid ICE. And so what they're trying to
do is they befriend mutual eight groups. And there is
a video I saw of this guy stating that he
had worked for immigrants day labors. So he gets them,
(10:24):
loads them all into the truck and he states he
promises them a job. And this guy's recording them and
their reactions, and you know, they seem to be in
a tranquil very convivial kind of atmosphere, and he drives
up in front of the ICE Administration building and then
yells out for ICE to come get them, and they scatter.
(10:45):
So the second thing that also that's going on is
too that these organizations, these right maggot groups are utilizing
and trying to get personal information from mutual aid groups
and to dock them to other mutual A groups and
to try to target or to harass people that are
reaching out trying to help the unhoused community or immigrant
(11:05):
community or whatever community did you serve as that are
dealing with undocumented immigrants.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
They're doing at as well.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, yeah, and that harms everyone, right, even documented folks
who run house to are citizens as we lose those services. Yeah,
let's take a little break and we're going to come
back and talk more about this. Okay, all right, we
(11:33):
are back. One of the things we've spoken about is
like how undocumented folks often end up on the street, right,
something I've seen a lot here in San Diego, at least,
it is undocumented families ending up on the street, right,
And that can mean that their kids don't get access
to education. It makes it so much harder for them
(11:53):
to access services are they and anyone else can access
Maybe you could explain to people, because again I don't
think that this is something that people consider. But we
spoke about it, right when we spoke about sweeps. Democratic
governors all around the country and mayors and other legislators
(12:14):
and executive office people have claimed to be like in
solidarity with migrants, right, they said they stand with their
undocumented community. But at the same time, they have spent
the last decade demonizing the unhoused community and passing laws
in a state of the case of California, right, that
make it easy to consign someone to like a mental healthhold,
(12:35):
just for being on housed, just for not being able
to make rent. Can you explain how that intersection has
created a tool for oppression which is now being wielded
against undocumented people. And as you said to me before
we recorded, like when we build this oppressive apparatus, it
can always be wielded against people who we don't think
it should be wielded against.
Speaker 3 (12:56):
Right, Well, that's the very deep question is a question,
and I'm going to try to break apart of it
like a piece of bread in order hopefully to get
the whole meals digested. So let's start off with understanding
how in order for us to be able to criminalize
a human being, we must demonize them. And in order
for us to demonize them, we must create a narrative
(13:18):
that is easily digestible but quick to point out when
we're confronted with our humanity or our empathy or lack thereof.
So when the conversation turns to the un housed community,
for years, there's always has been on house people like
being out there, they're drug addicted, they're mentally ill, they're criminals,
they don't want help, or they don't want services, and
(13:39):
the peelback that layer of onion to explain the nuances
like the services are not equally provided, the services are
not tailored to what the people need, and that conversation
gets lost in the quagmire. Now bringing up into the
four is like we have the conversation of immigration, and
there has been the right wing steady diet of misinformation
(14:03):
or disinformation about a migrant or a documented people getting benefits,
living the life high on the hall, living luxuriously on
a snap or food stamps and other type of benefits,
and hardworking people can't get it, and that is just
simply not true. But it's been fostered to such a
degree that in this administration that we have down with Trump,
(14:26):
he's creating these narratives of MS.
Speaker 2 (14:29):
Thirteen is let loose across the country.
Speaker 3 (14:32):
They are targeting hardworking people, killing them off, and gang
violence is that are all time high, which is not true. Statistically,
we are at the most downward slope that we've had
in over twenty to thirty years. But the fact of it,
it's sears in people's minds. Who doesn't take the necessary
steps to break down the stereotypes and understand how that
(14:52):
is not true and it's harming, then we have un
choose this recipe of disinformation, the idea that some people
believe that they are worthy and their immigrants background, and
some are unworthy. Like when I say this statement, and
I always keep saying this, and I've been saying this
for a few years because it's an uncomfortable conversation, is
some people are invested in their own impression. And when
(15:15):
I say this, this is what I mean. Some people,
like for example, in the unhoused community that I had
been unhoused for over eight years, I would hear them
say these kind of statements, and I in the beginning
became uneasy. Then I was like, you know what, I
have to challenge this because this person believes that they
are well and good and they should be helped, and
(15:35):
these other people should not be helped because they are
unworthy on house and that sends off the dog whistle,
and that sends off these justification for people that don't
like on house people anyway to utilize that in the
forefront of their explanation and reasoning in order to continue
to create unitative resources and resolutions. Say, for example, the
(15:56):
San Jose mayor Laurie who is now working to criminal
onhoused people and says that if you turn down services
three times, you go to jail, you are susceptible to
be arrested Jesus, or you could create like in Tennessee
now it is a six year felony to be unhoused
and lodging out in public spaces. It's so easy to
(16:17):
do that people who are housed do not understand it.
Like in Los Angeles, like forty one eighteen is the
new Jim Crow. It is against the law to sit
sleepers lie. We don't talk about enough about Grant's past
which has given police much more leeway, and other cities
has been much more in basically a frenzy on trying
(16:38):
to create the most unitative legislation that they possibly can
against unhoused people.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
So these are the end results of this.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
So when we start to say it, and I always
say this in my show, if you can't help a person,
don't harm them.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
I will add further.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
With doctor King says, there's nothing much more dangerous than
sincere ignorance or will for stupidity.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
Yeah, I think that's a really it's a really good
thing way to put it, because like there is so
much I mean, I don't know if it comes out
of like you say, then source stupidity, but like so
many of these things actually end up at the same spot, right,
like increased numbers of people detained, more money for private prisons,
more money for police, right exactly, Like it shouldn't matter
(17:25):
to us where someone's sleeping, right, we don't want that
person to go to jail. They haven't done anything wrong.
And I think it's something that like now it's maybe
a good time for people to talk about that, right.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
And incidentally that's not helping the situation anyway, because once
they got jail. Now they have a criminal record, and
we know how we are against criminals and trying to
find jobs and housing, find housing, So where are they
going to go? So they're going back into the state
of houselessness and the state of I would say non existence,
but the state of punitative consequences just for being trying
to exist.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, and then if you know they were misdemeanor, they'll
get another misdemeanor just for living on the street again,
and then they'll stack misdemeanors and end up with lengthy sentence.
Speaker 3 (18:05):
But in the case of Tennessee, that's a felony. It's
not a misdemeanor. It's a six year piece prison sentence.
So let's say, for example, that they find you sleeping
out on the streets and they take you to jail.
Now that you have a six year felony. Now, as
you know, people that have felonies are it's much more
difficult to find jobs, to vote, and things like that.
To take it to even further, like trying to find housing,
(18:28):
they're filling out housing applications and the acts. If you've
been charged with a felony, they have to put that there.
Trying to find housing. You know, what's the odds that
they're going to get housing charge being on house? So
we need to look at these things and says, why
is it that our major knee jerk reaction is always
going to penalize poor people?
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Because this is what this boils down to.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
They have they have not the idea in order to
keep poor people set upon other poor people is believe
that they're deserving better treatment than other poor people that
look like for them, and the okay with how they're
being treated, in the faith into the delusion that they
won't be affected by it.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, Yeah, I think it's a good point that like
this deserving the good migrant bag, myrant, deserving poor and
deserving poor, like, all that does is it justifies violence
against whoever it is stigmatizing, and like we should just
I guess say pretty like in case people aren't aware,
I guess like when we look at Robert Paxton's book
The Anatomia of Fascism, Paxton talks about the motivating passions
(19:28):
of fascism, and one of them is this idea that
there is a scapegroat group which is to blame for
decline and like, yes, we can see the Trump administration
doing that with migrants. We can see democratic mayors blaming
unhoused people for the decline of their cities, right, for
their failure to manage budgets, for their inability to do
anything other than send a fire hose of money to
(19:48):
the cops. Right, it's completely endemic. I know in San
Diego told Gloria loves to demonize onnhouse people, right, and
he has done for years. And you know we're now
in a state where we're closing down our libraries for
more time, make it even harder for people to access services.
A place where people can access the internet. If you
want to make that housing application, now you can't go
(20:10):
to the library one more day we can do it.
It's like these two things are like different heads of
the same hydra.
Speaker 3 (20:17):
I guess let me point out to like, for example,
when I was on the streets as well. The library
is a lifeline for many reasons. And we have a
heat wave, many on house people go to the library
to stay cool. When we have a store storm, a rainstorm,
many onhouse people goes there. Many on house people unfortunately
use it as a burd bad place because they don't
(20:39):
want to smell bad. Despite society opinion, they'll offer enough
free showers or places where and house people can safely shower,
get their things laundered in a way. So they have
to create solutions in order to survive and sustain themselves
in their lives. So the library is more than just
supplying the books and reading and in housing application, it
(21:00):
is a lifeline in many respects where on house people
can be able to tether on to a semblance of normalcy,
if you will.
Speaker 1 (21:08):
Yeah, totally. It's another thing that I noticed, actually is
I was walking around downtown LA. It's something I noticed
here in San Diego there are not accessible bathrooms for
people exactly, right, and maybe other people, Like if you've
been out in the streets in LA or wherever you live,
you might have noticed this too, Right, Like, I was
very lucky a resident of downtown let me into their
(21:29):
house so they could use a bathroom. But like, this
is a city with millions of people, with billions of
dollars in budget. Right, the cops had five helicopters. I
refuse to believe that it's not possible for them to
create a place for people to use the bathroom safely.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
And therein lies a conundrum is that people with the
demanding restrooms and the city says that they can't financially
sustain them, or they utilize every reason in the world
to discourage a believe it's going to discourage a bottle
functions from unhoused people, which is ridiculous because we're still
going to have to go to the restroom no matter
(22:06):
we're living in the street or earn a home. That's
one universal equity that's never going to change. And the
thing most importantly of it is is that I have
a story that I tell about my own experience with it.
During the pandemic, I had broken my leg and I
had it was on a walker and everything shut down.
(22:26):
There were no public porter parties, there were no bathrooms,
and the only way I could get to a bathroom
that at the time that was open was Starbucks. So
and Starbucks was like almost a half a mile away,
so I had to hobble there and they wouldn't let
me in because they were because I was on house
and they felt that I was going to take a
bath into the bathroom and I just needed to use
(22:48):
the restroom. And this hurdle is another hurdle that many
unhouse people have to go through, which is why they
use libraries, which is why they use public facilities. But
let's say, for example, Union Station, they do liberately goal
and shut off. They have like five stalls, and then
they shut off the other bathroom and lock that up,
and they'll lock the other bathroom down the other part
of the Union station.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Union Station is a busy place.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Why it makes no sense that this constant, less, punitative,
this insided or illogical viewpoint that's being ruled over to
the city and it runs over, it spills over in
every way possible. That makes it very clear to be
poor is the most horrible thing in the world.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, everybody, take another break here and then we're going
to come back and finish up. Okay, way are back,
so what I want to finish up with. And I
think it's always a good thing when folks are out
(23:49):
in the street, right, Like I guess not always, but
I don't really in support people being out in the street.
There are people who are out in the street and
they're realizing that things are worse than they thought. Right.
There are a lot of people who have gone out
in the street this week thinking that they had a
First Amendment right to protest and being tear gased or
shot with rubber bullets. And maybe they haven't been in
areas where they see unhoused people right, or they've been
(24:12):
managed to sort of remain ignoring the scale of the problem,
and now they're realizing how bad things are and they
want to help. How do they do that in a
way that it's respectful and in a way that doesn't
harm someone while trying to help them? Do you think, like,
where should they start that process?
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Not to self andngrandize myself, but I have a podcast
that I've created when I lived on the street, which
is called Weedy and House And in that conversation from
there's a bevy of episodes that talk about these very
same issues. One the understanding of empathy. The second thing
is to be educated on the realities and the differences
(24:50):
of unhoused community members, the nuances, how to approach unhouse people,
how to sustain a relationship with unhoused people, and how
to create a mutual aid or a group of people
that come in and check in on unhoused people in
order for them to help shepherd them along the realities
of houselessness.
Speaker 2 (25:09):
Many people have many skills in many groups.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
That's when I find with Mutual Aid and they're able
to tap into those skills in order to get some
unhoused people some services, some help, some notice, some pressure
to get places or get them placed or in the
hospital or whatever it is they need. The first step
is to, you know, listen in on some of the episodes,
hear their stories and understand their stories. I always asks
(25:31):
on house people, what is the best way for us
to help you? Because what would help me being on
house is very different than what a mother that's up
to that's fleeing domestic abuse. There's a lot of things
that I cannot foresee that she has to foresee for
the safety and life and her life and her children's life.
And so she would have different other solutions that would
(25:53):
not fit my solution or my way of helping me.
And we must understand houselessness is not monolith. It is
very layered many reasons why people are on the streets,
from political to being burned out on the system, and
to just trying to survive day to day.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Yeah, I think it's a really good answer toly like,
it's not something you can just as you say, it's
not a monolith. It's not something that where everyone is
the same, certainly, like my experience with un house neighbors
that I have and then undocumented on house folks. You know,
everyone has different concerns, right, Everyone has different needs, even
little things like I remember trying to help a family
(26:32):
and you know they had come to the US from
Venezuela and they had different food preferences, just just shit
like that. If you can make someone more comfortable just
by asking it so much, it's so much easier to do.
I wonder, like you've been downtown the last few nights,
Like it's rough, right, it's traumatizing, Like do you see
(26:52):
people expressing solidarity with unhoused people? Like do you see
because there is a feeling of it can be very
ice relating that there can also be like at times
I've said this before a lot, but like I feel
very taken care of because I see strangers feeding each other.
I see strangers washing each other's eyes out. I see
(27:13):
people just taking care of each other, if each other
in small ways, bringing water, bringing food. Do you feel
like the unhoused community is being shown that same care
and affection like during these protests, I have not.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
Seen it in this instance.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
I noticed that we were in the George Floyd protest,
there was more of an awakening about the unhoused communities
because they kept inhabiting and they started to do that. Definitely,
I will like to believe that that has continued to
spill over. I noticed sometimes when the protests of what's
going on in Palestine, many Palestine or protesters will walk
past the Mutual Aid stations. Some would stop and say something,
(27:50):
or some would just keep right on going.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Again.
Speaker 3 (27:53):
I think it's one of the things one of the
narrative's successes of the right wing narratives is to late
and house people, make sure that's their issue is completely different.
And to that way, you can be able to continue
to demonize and criminalize and house people with the respect
the people that are waving the gods are flag or
waving flags of Mexico. They can feel safe in the
(28:16):
delusion that they're safe. And these people are then nereword
Wells and we are not. We are we are legitimately
fighting for freedom and house people are just fighting just
to get their next hit, you know.
Speaker 1 (28:29):
So yeah, and I think until we realize all our
struggles are connected, like we we wait, you know, this
is very clearly something that neoliberalism has done right, Like
it's pursued identity politics in a way that doesn't lift
people up so much as it splits them apart, and
it stops us seeing all our struggles are connected. See
is there anything else you wanted to share with people
(28:49):
before we before we wrap up today.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
I think we covered the long and short of it.
You know, it's yeah, we can. This is just a
primer on some of the insights. Yes, it's a very
fluid situation. There's going to be new insights and new
observations as this protest unravels and we will get to
see what this administration what next harm that they're going
to do to vulnerable people.
Speaker 2 (29:13):
Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
If people want to follow your podcast or follow you elsewhere,
where can they find you?
Speaker 3 (29:18):
They can find me on iHeartMedia, on they can find
me on where they find that podcast. I'm on iHeart Apples, Spotify, Amazon,
anywhere you find your podcast.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I'm there.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Great. Thank you so much for your time, south Mentha,
that was a great conversation.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Thank you, and hopefully we'll meet again in a light
of understanding. Jeez, thank you. It could happen. Here is
a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts from
Cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or
check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
You listen to podcasts, you can now find sources for
It could happen here listened directly in episode descriptions.
Speaker 2 (29:56):
Thanks for listening.
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