March 26, 2025 • 34 mins
Robert, James, and Gare discuss the question of fleeing the country, various demographics under threat, and the politics of escape.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Call Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about
how it's happened here and it continues to happen here.
Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of
the podcast, you know, because we're not anyway. I got
Jams stout with me, I got Garrison Davis with me.
Woot woot, huzzah.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
So the past few weeks, myself is as well as
probably everyone else on this call, has been getting a
lot of questions from listeners via the various social media
apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a
much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's
(00:47):
been kind of on a lot of people's minds and
something that we've been discussing as like a group, is
the idea of should you flee the country? Is the
party over? Do we need to use the time we
have now to get out? The Trump administration is cracking
down on a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people,
(01:10):
people with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum,
trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary
out there, and the thought crosses your mind, maybe there's
somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a
tough question for us to kind of think about because
(01:32):
we don't want to like inspire panic. That's not the
purpose of what we do here.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You should try to spread calm when times are bad
if you can.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
But the situation politically in the country and in many
parts of the world right now is extremely fraud and
it does feel closer towards like the bad nightmare scenario
than kind of I've ever thought it has before. So
it's so it's a really tough question. Yeah, And I
think what we're going to be doing this episode is
(02:03):
just kind of talking about this question and our thoughts
around you know, various responses to this line of thought,
and I guess Robert kind of has a baseline like,
kind of quasi answer that I think we can use
as a jumping off point.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
You know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know,
or in a community of people who are being targeted,
you know, you're a naturalized citizen, your hair on a
green card, you're trans, you're any any of the many
different groups of people that are being targeted right now,
and you have the opportunity to leave, and you think
(02:42):
that that's the right thing for you, then you should
do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know,
if you've got a job that is in demand in
other countries and you know the process and can get
start the process to like get residency somewhere else and
work somewhere else, and you know, make your life work
that way, then I don't think you should feel bad
about doing that. If that's what you decide is the
(03:04):
right thing for you. That said, it's not, it's just
simply not going to be a realistic possibility for most people.
What is more realistic for a lot of people is,
for example, moving from states where the risk is higher
to states where maybe the risk is lower. Hard to
say how long the risk will be lower, you know,
but I, you know, I certainly that's more achievable for
(03:26):
a lot of people than getting set up in a
foreign country, as James will talk about, if your hope
is just I'm going to try to go somewhere else
like Europe or whatever as an asylum seeker. As again,
James will go into more detail on life ain't easy
for asylum seekers and that's not really Again, it may
not be nearly as much of an option as you
think that it is right now. I you know, had
(03:47):
to go through kind of my own process after the
election of like, well, am I going to like, you know,
get my finances in order and move to another country
and basically try to like pay my way into getting
a visa somewhere like in Spain, which is an option
for someone like me. And I came to the conclusion
that like, nah, you know, if the worst case thing happens,
(04:07):
I'd rather like die here or whatever. It's just not
worth it, you know, to try to get out. So
I'm committing to trying to like hold the line here
with everybody basically that I love in the world, because
like what else are you going to do? You know?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, Like I will just say that, you know, I
probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know,
and it is one of the more miserable fates available
to a human. It will if large numbers of people
start leaving the US, only get worse. If you're someone
who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much
(04:43):
in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you
have traveled around the world, right, you have one of
the more high value passports in the world. You can
you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in
many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely
different process. If you think you're just going to get
on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like understand
(05:05):
that many countries will probably begin to require reciprocal visas
with the United States soon if we continue our current
sort of pathway with a more isolationist immigration policy, and
then you'll have to get that visa, and then you know,
if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The
sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be
(05:26):
something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able
to fly somewhere and so you try and overstay a
visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have
people I've met in every facet of my life, like
I know guys who I met as a bike racer
who have applied for asylum. Guys I met a bike
racer are staying on that barge in the UK. It
(05:47):
is a miserable fate. And I think that I'm not
saying don't do it. I'm saying that you need to
understand that it is highly unpleasant and it tripped you
of all dignity, and in some places exists people of
of like their lives. Right, people die migrating. It's also
like incredibly expensive to do the things that migrants do
(06:10):
because that everyone is trying to make a buck off them. Right.
I was just talking on another podcast about how the
journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who
tried to come to the United States, it would have
cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't.
They couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean like
if you know, if you have a historical right to
citizenship through various you know, people have rights to Spanish
(06:31):
citizenship or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one that
many people have access to. You, Yeah, why not? Why not?
You know, if you have the financial resources, we're not
try and see where that will go. Why not begin
pursuing that totally?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Sure, I think becoming a dual citizen if you have
the capability to, is a fantastic idea that I will
like never dissuade someone from.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
No.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I would go so far as to say, even if
you plan to stay here, if you have the ability
to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now, absolutely, like.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Is it's something that you should do. It's often not
hideously expensive, and it's something that might be Yeah, you
have options, and options are good. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I am very hesitant to like openly call for like
now is the time to leave the country. I do
not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons,
like some of them are or more political, as in
like I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape,
even the idea of like fleeing states. I feel a
little bit iffy about.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Now.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
There's certainly, you know, a lot of cases where families
are trying to move, you know, outside states that have
more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors, towards more
friendly states, which I totally understand. But I have greatly
enjoyed getting to know a whole bunch of trans people
in the South, and a whole bunch of trans people
here are not willing to leave their home. This is
(07:57):
their home and it always will be and they're going
to stay and fight for it even as things get
you know, harder, And I don't think you should write
these people off. I don't think you should write these
places off. These these places are still a terrain of battle,
and there are going to be places where trans people
can still live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases.
And that is that it's worth acknowledging, that's worth putting
(08:19):
effort into. To the point that, like after the election,
I was already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel
around the country some more. And after this last election,
my line of thought was way more on the side
of I would actually like to spend as much time
in Georgia as possible. I would actually want to stay
in this South for as much as I can, because
(08:40):
this is like not a place that I think people
should be walking away from. And in some ways that
does come from like a slightly privileged point of view
for multiple reasons, as someone who's white and holds a
Canadian passport as well as an American passport. That is,
you know, something that I like to have as a
back pocket option. But that's something I'm not like considering
(09:01):
like at all. Like I do not want to move
to Canada. All my friends are here, my life is here.
There's certain scenarios where things get much much, much worse,
even though things are already getting quite bad. But there
are certain scenarios where yes, that passport will come in handy,
And that's why I do encourage like, no matter what
you should you should see if you have any options
to become a citizen in more than one country. It
(09:24):
is a great thing to be. It's it's good to
not be just tied down to one place. But the
process of trying to to you know, immigrate somewhere where
you do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging.
And we will probably discuss some some more of this
later because I think there's also a sort of like
onion of a threat of people when you're when you're
(09:44):
thinking of this question like which people will will be
or are currently being targeted the most, and how that
kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation
to places viewed as like safer havens. And I like
to jumpstart that onion of protect discussion. After these messages, we're.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Back and we're talking about onions which you need to
wear around your neck to protect you from evil spirits. Scarce,
and that's what you were getting at, right.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yes, Uh, that's done. Move on to the next.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Topic, where five different onions to drive away the various
secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals. Yes, speaking
of I guess like the big thing I'm thinking about
right now, or one of some big things, is there's
different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in
the United States. One you have like people who are
(10:45):
completely undocumented, right. You have people who are currently here
on like valid asylum claims who are about to get
those rights like stripped away. I'm trying to think of
like the list of refugees that were allowed under Biden
that are now like like imminently going to get their
stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I know Venezuelan, Yeah,
I know, you run. Haitian immigrants are another off god,
(11:11):
but groups that have that have been able to come
here the past few years that are going to be
now seen as like quote unquote illegal by the White
House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then have student visa
holders which are already like currently under threat getting visas
taken away. You have people on work visas. You have
Green card holders, and you even have naturalized citizens and
(11:33):
among just regular citizens, a naturalists, I guess people that
were born here. You have other factors that could lead
to potential hardship. Based on political affiliation or based on
gender and sexuality, And that's kind of like the bracket
breakdown I'm working off of. So as much as it's
like dangerous to be like, you know, like a trans
anarchist right in the United States, I think that is
(11:56):
that is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who's about
to get like, yeah, literally hunted down by ice, right,
And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options
for how they're going to like handle this question and
handle like the decision of you know, preemptively choosing to
relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of
(12:17):
thoughts on this like onion? I guess yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I mean I think you described it well, right, Like
I think a lot of folks are for the first
time finding themselves in that onion at all, right, and
certainly with respect to like immigration enforcement or potentially being
forced to leave this country. And I think it would
be good maybe to look at folks who have been
there for a long time and look at how they've done, right,
(12:41):
because there have been people whose existence was precarious in
this country for decades. Right, maybe we'd go back to
nineteen ninety four in Operation Gatekeeper. Maybe we go back
further whatever, I don't care. Maybe we'd go back to
the operation whose name is also a slur in the
nineteen thirties. And I'm not going to say I.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Mean and indigenous people here, like for all of America,
it sure have been been people that like exist in
a wildly different reality than like, yeah, most US citizens, right.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Yeah, where, Yes, this country is predicated on the genocide
of indigenous people.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Well, and even in the ways that they're the like
continue to live here. It's it's like a different world from.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, like that genocide is ongoing, Like, it's not it's
not a thing that stopped. Yeah, it's not a historical thing.
It's the thing that exists. As long as this country exists.
I would look to those people, right, Like you said, Garrison,
Indigenous communities, Indigenous people continue to exist in this country
despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them.
Undocumented communities, right, Migrant communities of mixed status have continued
(13:43):
to exist for a very long time. And like, the
way that they have got through this is together, and
that's the way that we will get through this too.
When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities
have shown up for each other, right, they're doing that
right now. You see groups like Del Barrio in San Diego,
right like going around announcing when there are ice presence
(14:05):
of ICE officers in the neighborhood. The way that they
have gone through it is through other people in positions
of procarity, showing up for one another and taking care
of one another. And if that is a new position
for you, if finding yourself like further along the intersectional
matrix of oppression is new for you, then like it's scary.
(14:26):
I do understand that that procurity is petrifying, but understand
that communities and people have been here for a long
time and look at how they've got through it. And
in queer communities too to a degree, have been persecuted
in this country for a very long time and have
developed ways of not just like existing, but also like
continuing to center joy and experience joy and not just
(14:48):
like live in fear, because I think if you live
in fear, like you've kind of given up to a degree,
Oh you've let them win. To agree, I should say, like,
I do understand that being new to this is petrifying
for people, and like I don't want to just say like, oh,
you shouldn't be scared, or you know, you should look
at at how migrant communities have taken care of one another,
but like now is the time to begin establishing solidarity
(15:11):
as well. So like those communities which have been precarious
for some time, they're not closed spaces, right, Like you
can be in solidarity with them and you can learn
from them, And I think that now is the time
to do that. Like, now is the time to build
stronger links. If you're really worried about things being really
bad in this country and you have good reason to
be right, like.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit, yeah it's really
fucking bad, really bad. Yeah, Like you know, we're sending
people to labor camps. If you're scared, panicking thinking I
got to get out of here, I get you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
No, I mean I think the thing that you should
be doing, regardless of who you are, is you should
be giving yourself options. H you should be increasing the
amount of options that you have. And like, that is
something that is never a bad idea, That is something
that you could never do too early. It's something that
you should have already been doing. Frankly, like I've been
(16:05):
advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport,
because that doesn't make it easier to leave the country.
You should be getting that, and it's going to be harder,
especially if you're trends now, to get a passport that
matches what you look like, right, But this is still
something I think is worth doing because it gives you
an option, and you should be increasing the amount of
(16:26):
options you have.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Yeah, I think, yeah, it's never a bad thing. And
like that community structure is an option too, Like people
showing up for you and you showed up for them,
that is one of your options. Don't forget that. And
like that will also bring you join You will feel
safer when you like we were supposed to live in communities,
and like I you know, I've seen a lot of
(16:49):
people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Curtish
guys once said to me in the in the desert,
he was like, whatever we do, we do together. And
I thought that was very profound because they were at
that time like dancing around a fire in the midst
of what was like an open air concentration camp. You know,
but if you can find a community and you can
find a way to continue to experience joy, then I
(17:10):
promise that things won't be as bad as they seem
right now.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Within the Kurdish Shrina movement, there's a phrase that is
commonly used a slogan. You could say, I guess in
Kurdish you would say betshwudan Jian means resistance is life.
And we should remember that for whole groups of people,
many of whom we've featured here, if they had all
just left, they would no longer exist in the way
(17:35):
that they exist now.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries, right, Turkish, Iraqi,
Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence, and
they've still remained there, right, and they've continued to fight
against that state oppression, and they've created something beautiful today
as a result that we can see in Raja. But
the same is true of the Quran and Kareni people
(17:59):
we've spoken to in right. They decided to remain rather
than to leave, and in doing so that they created
a culture that was based on resistance and that resisted
the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly on
violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think we
should look to those examples as we consider, like, what
(18:21):
does it mean if the state becomes more hostile.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Here something that like I think I think Robert said
in our work group chat, which thankfully has not been
turned into an Atlantic article.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I did invite Pete Hegseeth, so we'll see if he
HAPs in. You know, he's rejected us all the good times.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah, if you're trying to add the Atlantic editor in
chief year, he.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Is not welcome. He's absolutely not welcome.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
That guy just need him to manufacture consent for bombing
another country in the Middle East on our podcast.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
It's so funny because it is like that is like
the dream of every journalist that you just get added
to the entire government's war planning chat and he just
uses it to d on the Trump admin like you
get more info unlike anything than he like home's back
into the head. Yes, it's it's it's fucking hysterical.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah, they could have had four years and maybe no
maybe any one off chat.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, would they would have They would have accidentally invited
a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
But something Robert said in our chat is that like
if you already had like plans or the ability to
move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah,
why not, right, Like if if if you already were
thinking about moving to Germany, which is very funny to
say now, right, but if you already had plans and
(19:41):
you had the ability to do that, then then sure
that's something that that you should that that you should
like consider. If you do not already have pre existing
plans and means, maybe it's not something to put all
of your effort into doing right now, because that is
such a massive undertaking in general, and and not everyone
has that option, and there's to be people stuck here,
(20:02):
and you know, part of like my thinking on this
is is like I'm in a relatively privileged position. I
would rather use the sort of benefits and the stability
that I have to help other people that are going
to be living in this country. So I'm going to
stay here to do that. And that's part of kind
of my thought process. On a personal level, do I,
(20:23):
you know, one day maybe one to live off the continent. Yeah,
but that's like for personal reasons, not for political reasons.
That that's because I think Glasgow looks pretty. And if
you also think Glasgow is pretty and you want to
move there, then that's fine. But I guess, like the
politics of escape, I do find a little bit troubling
in some ways, and I guess I would like to
(20:45):
talk about that a little bit more after this at break.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
All right, we're back.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
James made a horrible face when I when I complimented Scotland.
What was up with that?
Speaker 4 (21:05):
When you said glass Goal? Like, so Glasgow not not
a city that's traditionally like aesthetically prized.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I guess, uh, okay, well that's that's maybe.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Okay, Edinburgh is where if I was going to go
to Scotland I probably am.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I'm not going to live in the Harry Potter Town.
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
It existed?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Yeah, that is rude, Garrison.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Don't take that away from Edinburgh. Don't give her that.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
All the coffee shops are like fucking wizard themes. Now,
absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
You haven't been to Edinburgh, don't tell me that ship.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I've seen your travel pictures, Robert.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I'm they were mostly hard liquor themed.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Okay, that's fair, you can Edinburgh is a nice city.
Glasgow is a nice city. You can joy, you can
enjoy it, but stopped by Karla on your way down there.
My family are from.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
My favorite Glasgow fact is that there's a beverage called
Buckfast that is twenty percent alcohol mineral wine made by
monks that has as much coffee as a red bull,
And in Glasgow, Scotland, for a significant period of time,
roughly one percent of all violent crimes were committed with
the bottle.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yeah, Bucky is it's a whole subculture.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Buckfast gets you fucked fast, That's right, folks.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So a term I've used for like the past few
years to like discuss this, to discuss this question of
like can you like outrun American fascism is the politics
of escape. And for a while I really was vocally
opposed to this sort of politics because it felt like
the entire world was going through a global far right
(22:47):
power grap and no matter where you run, you can't
really get away from it. And now kind of curiously,
you know, some of this is still happening, right, you
can look at the AfD in Germany. But some of
what's happened with this Trump administration has almost weakened a
degree of like this global far right power grab. Like
(23:07):
for a long time it looked like the Conservative Party
of Canada was about to just completely take control over
the whole over the whole country due to like be
pent up frustration over Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party. And now
due to the actions of the Trump administration, the Liberals
have retaken a significant portion of like popular support and
(23:30):
are probably gonna do a big sweep in the general election.
That's going to happen, I'm guessing next month with the
new Prime Minister like about about to call one, which
makes sense because he should call one at the at
the peak of support for the Liberal Party. Yeah, after
the Conservatives have taken like a twelve to seventeen point
depth depending which pool you use. So for a while
(23:51):
I was like, it doesn't even really make sense to
flee to Canada because Canada is right on the coattails
of America. Canadian politics are kind of historically but like
ten years delayed from American politics, and now the new
drum administration is kind of thrown a curveball in this.
British politics are always really hard for me to diagnose
(24:12):
because all of their parties there are pretty wacky in
my mind. Oh, like, you know, what the Tories have
been doing has been extremely worrying. Like the NHS, like
trans stuff is pretty bad. Now that the you know,
Labor Party is in, it's hard for me to figure
out kind of where the country is going because this
Labor Party is a pretty conservative labor party. But like
(24:35):
this idea of like being able to outrun American fascism
is still something I find like unconvincing. I guess, like
you can't fully run away from all of these problems,
and there may be certain people that it's still like
makes sense to start making these moves just to start
planning for that option, right, I am pro options, even
(24:57):
if this idea of like total escape still find trouble. Yeah,
and anyone else making a kind of thoughts on this
on this saw.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Yeah, I mean, like as goes to US, goes the world, right,
And but that is changing. But like maybe I think
if it gets to the point where large numbers of
people are fleeing the US, we might see some of
that same anti migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the
US in even relatively liberal Canada, the United Kingdom or
(25:28):
other anglophone countries. Right, Like, it's already very hard to
to immigrate to Australia. It's not the easiest to immigrate
to Canada. Frankly, yeah, I not. I'm not as familiar
with the Canadian.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
One, especially as like an American. Yeah, unless you have
like a job that you need to do in Canada
and you're the only one who can do that job,
or you get a Canadian girlfriend or that's that makes
it slightly easier, but still not still not like completely easier.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Frankly, yeah, that is a I guess that's the alternative. Yeah,
I think, like I know, like a lot of people
who listen to this listen to this because they have
a fairly radical politics, right or left politics, and like.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Or you're a journalist or you're a federal worker, uh.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Huh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're looking to steal
our stories. Fuck off, if I may say so, But like, yeah,
we've all grown up on the stories of people who
stood up for what they believed in, right, And Margaret
makes a whole podcast about it, and Robert does on
Christmases yep, and like there's a reason why they did that,
(26:28):
Like you know they I know that the idea of
running away and being safe could be tempting, But like,
if this country gets as bad as it needs to
be for people to run away in large number, it's
like the world gets markedly less safe. Oh yeah, you're
going to be running for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Just look at how much food the US produces, how
much medicine. Seventy percent of all of the blood used
in every single country's medical system around the world is
exported from the United States. Oh wow, Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
And like, particularly for for like US citizens right looking
looking to flee, the people who are going to be
able to pull it off are people with pretty pretty
extraordinary means in most cases. I'm not I'm not, I'm
not saying all cases, but like if if, if you
have the capacity to move from from the United States
to Germany, you're you're probably not living on the poverty line,
(27:24):
right like that this is this is this, This takes
a considerable financial investment. So instead, part of what my
opposition to this is that you're essentially abandoning a whole
bunch of like the like most at risk people. Yea,
A part of this even extends out to like moving
from state to state. I'm obviously in support of free movement.
I've traveled around, and I'm going to continue to travel around.
I want to see as much as the country in
(27:45):
the world as I can. But like another facet of
this politics of escape is that something I hear very
consistently from my my friends in Atlanta, And this is
something I can attest to, like personally, the most amount
of like like local transphobia from people like on the
street that they have faced has not been in Atlanta
where they live. It's been when they're visiting people in
(28:08):
Seattle or Portland. Like you actually get a lot more
like weird anti queer harassment in Seattle, just just like
on like the street level. It's bizarre, Like cities all
have different kind of like modes of operation. People have
different like informal like manners in terms of how how
you like behave on the street. And it's it's it is.
(28:29):
This is something that I've definitely actually I've definitely experienced.
There's there's a lot more like open openness towards like
certain types of of like anti trans harassment in like
these like liberal safe havens like quote unquote, yeah, I've
been called slurs on the street way more in Portland,
Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is
(28:49):
this is another like interesting aspect which I'm not saying
Atlanta is quote unquote safer city than Seattle if you're
trans I'm not saying the vice versa either, But this
is like just an aspect of like the politics of escape,
like especially in the in the United States, like they're there,
like is really no like real escape, like there there
is no mythical safe haven where you can live your
(29:12):
your free life and frolics through the park and never
have to face any kind of hardship or like political disenfranchisement.
If you still want to relocate somewhere, that's something that
you should consider and again create options. But I also
do not want to like abandon my friends here because
I just you know, have a more stable job, Like
(29:33):
I I want to be here for them and and
help them and not in like a patronizing way, but
in like a solidarity way. Like that's like really important
to me. And I think of people who are who
are thinking about these same things and kind of running
these same questions of of if they want to commit
a sting in the United States, I think should also
make those considerations of is like you know which which
(29:54):
one of your friends is not going to be able
to make the same calculation. Yep, And frankly, I feel
I feel like better as a person and like my
mental health feels better knowing I'm gonna be here with
them rather than going to a Berlin nightclub, which does
sound fun. And I still might on vacation.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Oh, you definitely need to go to Bergain, Garrett.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Oh, yeah, I have.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I have planned three days that feel like about four
hours in Bergaine.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I am, I am, I'm excited. I am for the
first time planning to leave the continent this year, which
is a little bit scary because re entering the United
States is pretty tricky right now, which should also play
into your considerations.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah. Yes, the general safety of air travel at the.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Moment, safety and air travel now that we don't have
a gay man running the planes.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Uh yeah, it turns out he was actually all right.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
At bat woke was keeping those planes in the air, you.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Know, kudos to him. Turns out he was okay at
bet job.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
But but yes, I don't know what I was saying,
but I'm sure it was really important and well thought
through about not abandoning people who maybe don't have the
same resources that you do.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Yeah, to your point about like coming back to the US,
understand that like one of the things that migrants to
deal with, even if they get to a place and
they have some degree permanents and they feel safe there,
is that they will never be able to go back
to where they're from in most cases, right, that means
when someone in their family passes away, they can't be
there for the funeral. That means that when they have
(31:28):
a grandchild, they have a niece or a nephew, something
happens in their community and they want to be there
to help. It's a natural disaster. They are just stuck.
And that's not something to like to discount as something
that's not important, Like that is really hard. And if
you have a community now, especially for trans folks, right,
(31:49):
Like I just think that, like there are so many
places where, like you say, Garrison, where bigotry against transfolks
is being more and more normalized. So like, if you
have a community where people where you're experiencing every day
with the people you're around, like leaving that should be
something that you really think hard about because that can
be hard to find yeah, yeah, expecting in Edinburgh because
(32:10):
they're old turfs with the in the cafes.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
That's not too.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Just to be clear, Yeah, I mean, this is kind
of the discussion I wanted to have. I'm sure we
all have more thoughts on this that we will we
will express very eloquently as soon as we close this
recording session.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
That's how we do it.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
But but I know, this is this type of stuff
that we've been thinking about. I know, I know listeners
have been too. Because you're asking us these questions. It's
certainly annoying that we don't have a concise yes or
no answer. But there isn't a concise yes or no answer.
I think the most concise one I have is that
you should be giving yourself as many options as you can.
If that includes applying for Irish citizenship because your grandfather
(32:53):
is Irish, then hey, why not go for it?
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right, Ireland's great, nice country. You'll like it.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
But I am I am trepidacious. I guess about about
you know, public calls to flee the country at this
point and kind of the underlying politics and ideology of that,
let alone the kind of the logistical aspects of trying
to relocate to a different country where you are not
a citizen, And frankly, I think there will be a
(33:21):
lot of countries that are not super eager to take
American immigrants. I think Canada is typically kind of, kind
of low key been one of these places. Especially if
we're going to go to war with Canada to make
it the fifty first state, then it might also uh
create create some some some tricky aspects.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
You could make it hot.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But I know if anyone else has any any other thoughts,
air them now or forever. Be beholdened to angry Reddit comments.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Yeah, please don't burn each other down on Reddit, like
now is the time to give people a little grace
and be kind to other people.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Don't flee to Belgium. Stay away from Belgium at all costs.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
I had a nice time in Belgium.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
What do you have against Belgium? I have a friend
in Belgium.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
As an Italian. I think we need to go to
war with them again. You know, it's what made Caesar great.
It could make us great again. That's my stance on Belgium.
It's Italian territory.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
I stand with the Belgian people.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
now find sources for it could happen here, listed directly
in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening,
Call Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Oh, welcome to it could happen here, a podcast about
how it's happened here and it continues to happen here.
Sorry about that, but we're not changing the name of
the podcast, you know, because we're not anyway. I got
Jams stout with me, I got Garrison Davis with me.
Woot woot, huzzah.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
So the past few weeks, myself is as well as
probably everyone else on this call, has been getting a
lot of questions from listeners via the various social media
apps that we damage ourselves by logging into on a
much more than needed frequent basis. But one question that's
(00:47):
been kind of on a lot of people's minds and
something that we've been discussing as like a group, is
the idea of should you flee the country? Is the
party over? Do we need to use the time we
have now to get out? The Trump administration is cracking
down on a whole bunch of groups of already marginalized people,
(01:10):
people with fewer resources, immigrants, people who are here for asylum,
trans people, queer people in general. It's getting pretty scary
out there, and the thought crosses your mind, maybe there's
somewhere else that's better. And this has always been a
tough question for us to kind of think about because
(01:32):
we don't want to like inspire panic. That's not the
purpose of what we do here.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
You should try to spread calm when times are bad
if you can.
Speaker 3 (01:41):
But the situation politically in the country and in many
parts of the world right now is extremely fraud and
it does feel closer towards like the bad nightmare scenario
than kind of I've ever thought it has before. So
it's so it's a really tough question. Yeah, And I
think what we're going to be doing this episode is
(02:03):
just kind of talking about this question and our thoughts
around you know, various responses to this line of thought,
and I guess Robert kind of has a baseline like,
kind of quasi answer that I think we can use
as a jumping off point.
Speaker 2 (02:20):
You know, if you're someone who is being targeted, you know,
or in a community of people who are being targeted,
you know, you're a naturalized citizen, your hair on a
green card, you're trans, you're any any of the many
different groups of people that are being targeted right now,
and you have the opportunity to leave, and you think
(02:42):
that that's the right thing for you, then you should
do it. You shouldn't feel bad about it. You know,
if you've got a job that is in demand in
other countries and you know the process and can get
start the process to like get residency somewhere else and
work somewhere else, and you know, make your life work
that way, then I don't think you should feel bad
about doing that. If that's what you decide is the
(03:04):
right thing for you. That said, it's not, it's just
simply not going to be a realistic possibility for most people.
What is more realistic for a lot of people is,
for example, moving from states where the risk is higher
to states where maybe the risk is lower. Hard to
say how long the risk will be lower, you know,
but I, you know, I certainly that's more achievable for
(03:26):
a lot of people than getting set up in a
foreign country, as James will talk about, if your hope
is just I'm going to try to go somewhere else
like Europe or whatever as an asylum seeker. As again,
James will go into more detail on life ain't easy
for asylum seekers and that's not really Again, it may
not be nearly as much of an option as you
think that it is right now. I you know, had
(03:47):
to go through kind of my own process after the
election of like, well, am I going to like, you know,
get my finances in order and move to another country
and basically try to like pay my way into getting
a visa somewhere like in Spain, which is an option
for someone like me. And I came to the conclusion
that like, nah, you know, if the worst case thing happens,
(04:07):
I'd rather like die here or whatever. It's just not
worth it, you know, to try to get out. So
I'm committing to trying to like hold the line here
with everybody basically that I love in the world, because
like what else are you going to do? You know?
Speaker 4 (04:22):
Yeah, Like I will just say that, you know, I
probably have met more asylum seekers than most people, you know,
and it is one of the more miserable fates available
to a human. It will if large numbers of people
start leaving the US, only get worse. If you're someone
who's a US citizen, you have probably not experienced much
(04:43):
in the way of like strict immigration enforcement. If you
have traveled around the world, right, you have one of
the more high value passports in the world. You can
you can go almost anywhere with a visa or in
many cases without a visa. Seeking asylum is an extremely
different process. If you think you're just going to get
on a flight and leave and stay somewhere, like understand
(05:05):
that many countries will probably begin to require reciprocal visas
with the United States soon if we continue our current
sort of pathway with a more isolationist immigration policy, and
then you'll have to get that visa, and then you know,
if you overstay, you will be subject to enforcement. The
sense of permanence that you enjoy here might never be
(05:26):
something you enjoy again. And that's just if you're able
to fly somewhere and so you try and overstay a
visa or you try and apply for asylum. I have
people I've met in every facet of my life, like
I know guys who I met as a bike racer
who have applied for asylum. Guys I met a bike
racer are staying on that barge in the UK. It
(05:47):
is a miserable fate. And I think that I'm not
saying don't do it. I'm saying that you need to
understand that it is highly unpleasant and it tripped you
of all dignity, and in some places exists people of
of like their lives. Right, people die migrating. It's also
like incredibly expensive to do the things that migrants do
(06:10):
because that everyone is trying to make a buck off them. Right.
I was just talking on another podcast about how the
journey that people took up through the Darien Gap who
tried to come to the United States, it would have
cost them way less just to fly, but they couldn't.
They couldn't get the visas. Right. That doesn't mean like
if you know, if you have a historical right to
citizenship through various you know, people have rights to Spanish
(06:31):
citizenship or German citizenship or Irish. Irish is one that
many people have access to. You, Yeah, why not? Why not?
You know, if you have the financial resources, we're not
try and see where that will go. Why not begin
pursuing that totally?
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (06:44):
Sure, I think becoming a dual citizen if you have
the capability to, is a fantastic idea that I will
like never dissuade someone from.
Speaker 4 (06:54):
No.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
I would go so far as to say, even if
you plan to stay here, if you have the ability
to get dual citizenship, you should be pursuing that right now, absolutely, like.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Is it's something that you should do. It's often not
hideously expensive, and it's something that might be Yeah, you
have options, and options are good. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
I am very hesitant to like openly call for like
now is the time to leave the country. I do
not feel comfortable saying that for a number of reasons,
like some of them are or more political, as in
like I don't really subscribe to a politics of escape,
even the idea of like fleeing states. I feel a
little bit iffy about.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
Now.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
There's certainly, you know, a lot of cases where families
are trying to move, you know, outside states that have
more restricted access to trans healthcare for minors, towards more
friendly states, which I totally understand. But I have greatly
enjoyed getting to know a whole bunch of trans people
in the South, and a whole bunch of trans people
here are not willing to leave their home. This is
(07:57):
their home and it always will be and they're going
to stay and fight for it even as things get
you know, harder, And I don't think you should write
these people off. I don't think you should write these
places off. These these places are still a terrain of battle,
and there are going to be places where trans people
can still live and still live fulfilling lives in many cases.
And that is that it's worth acknowledging, that's worth putting
(08:19):
effort into. To the point that, like after the election,
I was already considering maybe, you know, trying to travel
around the country some more. And after this last election,
my line of thought was way more on the side
of I would actually like to spend as much time
in Georgia as possible. I would actually want to stay
in this South for as much as I can, because
(08:40):
this is like not a place that I think people
should be walking away from. And in some ways that
does come from like a slightly privileged point of view
for multiple reasons, as someone who's white and holds a
Canadian passport as well as an American passport. That is,
you know, something that I like to have as a
back pocket option. But that's something I'm not like considering
(09:01):
like at all. Like I do not want to move
to Canada. All my friends are here, my life is here.
There's certain scenarios where things get much much, much worse,
even though things are already getting quite bad. But there
are certain scenarios where yes, that passport will come in handy,
And that's why I do encourage like, no matter what
you should you should see if you have any options
to become a citizen in more than one country. It
(09:24):
is a great thing to be. It's it's good to
not be just tied down to one place. But the
process of trying to to you know, immigrate somewhere where
you do not have a citizenship is already quite challenging.
And we will probably discuss some some more of this
later because I think there's also a sort of like
onion of a threat of people when you're when you're
(09:44):
thinking of this question like which people will will be
or are currently being targeted the most, and how that
kind of affects the options in terms of like relocation
to places viewed as like safer havens. And I like
to jumpstart that onion of protect discussion. After these messages, we're.
Speaker 2 (10:13):
Back and we're talking about onions which you need to
wear around your neck to protect you from evil spirits. Scarce,
and that's what you were getting at, right.
Speaker 4 (10:20):
Yes, Uh, that's done. Move on to the next.
Speaker 3 (10:24):
Topic, where five different onions to drive away the various
secret police forces trying to hunt down individuals. Yes, speaking
of I guess like the big thing I'm thinking about
right now, or one of some big things, is there's
different levels of scrutiny being placed on individuals currently in
the United States. One you have like people who are
(10:45):
completely undocumented, right. You have people who are currently here
on like valid asylum claims who are about to get
those rights like stripped away. I'm trying to think of
like the list of refugees that were allowed under Biden
that are now like like imminently going to get their
stuff stripped away from the Trump administration. I know Venezuelan, Yeah,
I know, you run. Haitian immigrants are another off god,
(11:11):
but groups that have that have been able to come
here the past few years that are going to be
now seen as like quote unquote illegal by the White
House and Immigration Customs Enforcement. You then have student visa
holders which are already like currently under threat getting visas
taken away. You have people on work visas. You have
Green card holders, and you even have naturalized citizens and
(11:33):
among just regular citizens, a naturalists, I guess people that
were born here. You have other factors that could lead
to potential hardship. Based on political affiliation or based on
gender and sexuality, And that's kind of like the bracket
breakdown I'm working off of. So as much as it's
like dangerous to be like, you know, like a trans
anarchist right in the United States, I think that is
(11:56):
that is fairly different than a Haitian immigrant who's about
to get like, yeah, literally hunted down by ice, right,
And these people have wildly different realities, wildly different options
for how they're going to like handle this question and
handle like the decision of you know, preemptively choosing to
relocate somewhere else. James, do you have any kind of
(12:17):
thoughts on this like onion? I guess yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:20):
I mean I think you described it well, right, Like
I think a lot of folks are for the first
time finding themselves in that onion at all, right, and
certainly with respect to like immigration enforcement or potentially being
forced to leave this country. And I think it would
be good maybe to look at folks who have been
there for a long time and look at how they've done, right,
(12:41):
because there have been people whose existence was precarious in
this country for decades. Right, maybe we'd go back to
nineteen ninety four in Operation Gatekeeper. Maybe we go back
further whatever, I don't care. Maybe we'd go back to
the operation whose name is also a slur in the
nineteen thirties. And I'm not going to say I.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Mean and indigenous people here, like for all of America,
it sure have been been people that like exist in
a wildly different reality than like, yeah, most US citizens, right.
Speaker 4 (13:10):
Yeah, where, Yes, this country is predicated on the genocide
of indigenous people.
Speaker 3 (13:14):
Well, and even in the ways that they're the like
continue to live here. It's it's like a different world from.
Speaker 4 (13:21):
Yeah, like that genocide is ongoing, Like, it's not it's
not a thing that stopped. Yeah, it's not a historical thing.
It's the thing that exists. As long as this country exists.
I would look to those people, right, Like you said, Garrison,
Indigenous communities, Indigenous people continue to exist in this country
despite the best efforts of this country to eradicate them.
Undocumented communities, right, Migrant communities of mixed status have continued
(13:43):
to exist for a very long time. And like, the
way that they have got through this is together, and
that's the way that we will get through this too.
When there have been threats to migrant communities, migrant communities
have shown up for each other, right, they're doing that
right now. You see groups like Del Barrio in San Diego,
right like going around announcing when there are ice presence
(14:05):
of ICE officers in the neighborhood. The way that they
have gone through it is through other people in positions
of procarity, showing up for one another and taking care
of one another. And if that is a new position
for you, if finding yourself like further along the intersectional
matrix of oppression is new for you, then like it's scary.
(14:26):
I do understand that that procurity is petrifying, but understand
that communities and people have been here for a long
time and look at how they've got through it. And
in queer communities too to a degree, have been persecuted
in this country for a very long time and have
developed ways of not just like existing, but also like
continuing to center joy and experience joy and not just
(14:48):
like live in fear, because I think if you live
in fear, like you've kind of given up to a degree,
Oh you've let them win. To agree, I should say, like,
I do understand that being new to this is petrifying
for people, and like I don't want to just say like, oh,
you shouldn't be scared, or you know, you should look
at at how migrant communities have taken care of one another,
but like now is the time to begin establishing solidarity
(15:11):
as well. So like those communities which have been precarious
for some time, they're not closed spaces, right, Like you
can be in solidarity with them and you can learn
from them, And I think that now is the time
to do that. Like, now is the time to build
stronger links. If you're really worried about things being really
bad in this country and you have good reason to
be right, like.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Oh, yeah, shit's fucked up and bullshit, yeah it's really
fucking bad, really bad. Yeah, Like you know, we're sending
people to labor camps. If you're scared, panicking thinking I
got to get out of here, I get you. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
No, I mean I think the thing that you should
be doing, regardless of who you are, is you should
be giving yourself options. H you should be increasing the
amount of options that you have. And like, that is
something that is never a bad idea, That is something
that you could never do too early. It's something that
you should have already been doing. Frankly, like I've been
(16:05):
advocating for people to get passports, including an American passport,
because that doesn't make it easier to leave the country.
You should be getting that, and it's going to be harder,
especially if you're trends now, to get a passport that
matches what you look like, right, But this is still
something I think is worth doing because it gives you
an option, and you should be increasing the amount of
(16:26):
options you have.
Speaker 4 (16:27):
Yeah, I think, yeah, it's never a bad thing. And
like that community structure is an option too, Like people
showing up for you and you showed up for them,
that is one of your options. Don't forget that. And
like that will also bring you join You will feel
safer when you like we were supposed to live in communities,
and like I you know, I've seen a lot of
(16:49):
people in very difficult circumstances. And one of the Curtish
guys once said to me in the in the desert,
he was like, whatever we do, we do together. And
I thought that was very profound because they were at
that time like dancing around a fire in the midst
of what was like an open air concentration camp. You know,
but if you can find a community and you can
find a way to continue to experience joy, then I
(17:10):
promise that things won't be as bad as they seem
right now.
Speaker 2 (17:13):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
Within the Kurdish Shrina movement, there's a phrase that is
commonly used a slogan. You could say, I guess in
Kurdish you would say betshwudan Jian means resistance is life.
And we should remember that for whole groups of people,
many of whom we've featured here, if they had all
just left, they would no longer exist in the way
(17:35):
that they exist now.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Right.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Kurdish people have been oppressed by various states for centuries, right, Turkish, Iraqi,
Iranian and Syrian. They've been subject to genocidal violence, and
they've still remained there, right, and they've continued to fight
against that state oppression, and they've created something beautiful today
as a result that we can see in Raja. But
the same is true of the Quran and Kareni people
(17:59):
we've spoken to in right. They decided to remain rather
than to leave, and in doing so that they created
a culture that was based on resistance and that resisted
the ability of the state to exercise a monopoly on
violence and to determine their outcomes. And I think we
should look to those examples as we consider, like, what
(18:21):
does it mean if the state becomes more hostile.
Speaker 3 (18:24):
Here something that like I think I think Robert said
in our work group chat, which thankfully has not been
turned into an Atlantic article.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
I did invite Pete Hegseeth, so we'll see if he
HAPs in. You know, he's rejected us all the good times.
Speaker 4 (18:39):
Yeah, if you're trying to add the Atlantic editor in
chief year, he.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Is not welcome. He's absolutely not welcome.
Speaker 4 (18:45):
That guy just need him to manufacture consent for bombing
another country in the Middle East on our podcast.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
It's so funny because it is like that is like
the dream of every journalist that you just get added
to the entire government's war planning chat and he just
uses it to d on the Trump admin like you
get more info unlike anything than he like home's back
into the head. Yes, it's it's it's fucking hysterical.
Speaker 4 (19:09):
Yeah, they could have had four years and maybe no
maybe any one off chat.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
Yeah, would they would have They would have accidentally invited
a different journalist. It was going to happen eventually, but yeah.
Speaker 3 (19:19):
But something Robert said in our chat is that like
if you already had like plans or the ability to
move to a different country of your choosing, then yeah,
why not, right, Like if if if you already were
thinking about moving to Germany, which is very funny to
say now, right, but if you already had plans and
(19:41):
you had the ability to do that, then then sure
that's something that that you should that that you should
like consider. If you do not already have pre existing
plans and means, maybe it's not something to put all
of your effort into doing right now, because that is
such a massive undertaking in general, and and not everyone
has that option, and there's to be people stuck here,
(20:02):
and you know, part of like my thinking on this
is is like I'm in a relatively privileged position. I
would rather use the sort of benefits and the stability
that I have to help other people that are going
to be living in this country. So I'm going to
stay here to do that. And that's part of kind
of my thought process. On a personal level, do I,
(20:23):
you know, one day maybe one to live off the continent. Yeah,
but that's like for personal reasons, not for political reasons.
That that's because I think Glasgow looks pretty. And if
you also think Glasgow is pretty and you want to
move there, then that's fine. But I guess, like the
politics of escape, I do find a little bit troubling
in some ways, and I guess I would like to
(20:45):
talk about that a little bit more after this at break.
Speaker 2 (20:59):
All right, we're back.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
James made a horrible face when I when I complimented Scotland.
What was up with that?
Speaker 4 (21:05):
When you said glass Goal? Like, so Glasgow not not
a city that's traditionally like aesthetically prized.
Speaker 3 (21:15):
I guess, uh, okay, well that's that's maybe.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Okay, Edinburgh is where if I was going to go
to Scotland I probably am.
Speaker 3 (21:24):
I'm not going to live in the Harry Potter Town.
Are you kidding me?
Speaker 1 (21:27):
Oh?
Speaker 2 (21:27):
It existed?
Speaker 4 (21:29):
Yeah, that is rude, Garrison.
Speaker 2 (21:32):
Don't take that away from Edinburgh. Don't give her that.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
All the coffee shops are like fucking wizard themes. Now,
absolutely not.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
You haven't been to Edinburgh, don't tell me that ship.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
I've seen your travel pictures, Robert.
Speaker 2 (21:44):
I'm they were mostly hard liquor themed.
Speaker 4 (21:49):
Okay, that's fair, you can Edinburgh is a nice city.
Glasgow is a nice city. You can joy, you can
enjoy it, but stopped by Karla on your way down there.
My family are from.
Speaker 2 (22:00):
My favorite Glasgow fact is that there's a beverage called
Buckfast that is twenty percent alcohol mineral wine made by
monks that has as much coffee as a red bull,
And in Glasgow, Scotland, for a significant period of time,
roughly one percent of all violent crimes were committed with
the bottle.
Speaker 4 (22:17):
Yeah, Bucky is it's a whole subculture.
Speaker 2 (22:20):
Buckfast gets you fucked fast, That's right, folks.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
So a term I've used for like the past few
years to like discuss this, to discuss this question of
like can you like outrun American fascism is the politics
of escape. And for a while I really was vocally
opposed to this sort of politics because it felt like
the entire world was going through a global far right
(22:47):
power grap and no matter where you run, you can't
really get away from it. And now kind of curiously,
you know, some of this is still happening, right, you
can look at the AfD in Germany. But some of
what's happened with this Trump administration has almost weakened a
degree of like this global far right power grab. Like
(23:07):
for a long time it looked like the Conservative Party
of Canada was about to just completely take control over
the whole over the whole country due to like be
pent up frustration over Justin Trudeau's Liberal Party. And now
due to the actions of the Trump administration, the Liberals
have retaken a significant portion of like popular support and
(23:30):
are probably gonna do a big sweep in the general election.
That's going to happen, I'm guessing next month with the
new Prime Minister like about about to call one, which
makes sense because he should call one at the at
the peak of support for the Liberal Party. Yeah, after
the Conservatives have taken like a twelve to seventeen point
depth depending which pool you use. So for a while
(23:51):
I was like, it doesn't even really make sense to
flee to Canada because Canada is right on the coattails
of America. Canadian politics are kind of historically but like
ten years delayed from American politics, and now the new
drum administration is kind of thrown a curveball in this.
British politics are always really hard for me to diagnose
(24:12):
because all of their parties there are pretty wacky in
my mind. Oh, like, you know, what the Tories have
been doing has been extremely worrying. Like the NHS, like
trans stuff is pretty bad. Now that the you know,
Labor Party is in, it's hard for me to figure
out kind of where the country is going because this
Labor Party is a pretty conservative labor party. But like
(24:35):
this idea of like being able to outrun American fascism
is still something I find like unconvincing. I guess, like
you can't fully run away from all of these problems,
and there may be certain people that it's still like
makes sense to start making these moves just to start
planning for that option, right, I am pro options, even
(24:57):
if this idea of like total escape still find trouble. Yeah,
and anyone else making a kind of thoughts on this
on this saw.
Speaker 4 (25:05):
Yeah, I mean, like as goes to US, goes the world, right,
And but that is changing. But like maybe I think
if it gets to the point where large numbers of
people are fleeing the US, we might see some of
that same anti migrant rhetoric that we've seen in the
US in even relatively liberal Canada, the United Kingdom or
(25:28):
other anglophone countries. Right, Like, it's already very hard to
to immigrate to Australia. It's not the easiest to immigrate
to Canada. Frankly, yeah, I not. I'm not as familiar
with the Canadian.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
One, especially as like an American. Yeah, unless you have
like a job that you need to do in Canada
and you're the only one who can do that job,
or you get a Canadian girlfriend or that's that makes
it slightly easier, but still not still not like completely easier.
Speaker 4 (25:53):
Frankly, yeah, that is a I guess that's the alternative. Yeah,
I think, like I know, like a lot of people
who listen to this listen to this because they have
a fairly radical politics, right or left politics, and like.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Or you're a journalist or you're a federal worker, uh.
Speaker 4 (26:07):
Huh yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're looking to steal
our stories. Fuck off, if I may say so, But like, yeah,
we've all grown up on the stories of people who
stood up for what they believed in, right, And Margaret
makes a whole podcast about it, and Robert does on
Christmases yep, and like there's a reason why they did that,
(26:28):
Like you know they I know that the idea of
running away and being safe could be tempting, But like,
if this country gets as bad as it needs to
be for people to run away in large number, it's
like the world gets markedly less safe. Oh yeah, you're
going to be running for the rest of your life.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Just look at how much food the US produces, how
much medicine. Seventy percent of all of the blood used
in every single country's medical system around the world is
exported from the United States. Oh wow, Yeah, that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
And like, particularly for for like US citizens right looking
looking to flee, the people who are going to be
able to pull it off are people with pretty pretty
extraordinary means in most cases. I'm not I'm not, I'm
not saying all cases, but like if if, if you
have the capacity to move from from the United States
to Germany, you're you're probably not living on the poverty line,
(27:24):
right like that this is this is this, This takes
a considerable financial investment. So instead, part of what my
opposition to this is that you're essentially abandoning a whole
bunch of like the like most at risk people. Yea,
A part of this even extends out to like moving
from state to state. I'm obviously in support of free movement.
I've traveled around, and I'm going to continue to travel around.
I want to see as much as the country in
(27:45):
the world as I can. But like another facet of
this politics of escape is that something I hear very
consistently from my my friends in Atlanta, And this is
something I can attest to, like personally, the most amount
of like like local transphobia from people like on the
street that they have faced has not been in Atlanta
where they live. It's been when they're visiting people in
(28:08):
Seattle or Portland. Like you actually get a lot more
like weird anti queer harassment in Seattle, just just like
on like the street level. It's bizarre, Like cities all
have different kind of like modes of operation. People have
different like informal like manners in terms of how how
you like behave on the street. And it's it's it is.
(28:29):
This is something that I've definitely actually I've definitely experienced.
There's there's a lot more like open openness towards like
certain types of of like anti trans harassment in like
these like liberal safe havens like quote unquote, yeah, I've
been called slurs on the street way more in Portland,
Oregon than I have in Atlanta, Georgia. And this is
(28:49):
this is another like interesting aspect which I'm not saying
Atlanta is quote unquote safer city than Seattle if you're
trans I'm not saying the vice versa either, But this
is like just an aspect of like the politics of escape,
like especially in the in the United States, like they're there,
like is really no like real escape, like there there
is no mythical safe haven where you can live your
(29:12):
your free life and frolics through the park and never
have to face any kind of hardship or like political disenfranchisement.
If you still want to relocate somewhere, that's something that
you should consider and again create options. But I also
do not want to like abandon my friends here because
I just you know, have a more stable job, Like
(29:33):
I I want to be here for them and and
help them and not in like a patronizing way, but
in like a solidarity way. Like that's like really important
to me. And I think of people who are who
are thinking about these same things and kind of running
these same questions of of if they want to commit
a sting in the United States, I think should also
make those considerations of is like you know which which
(29:54):
one of your friends is not going to be able
to make the same calculation. Yep, And frankly, I feel
I feel like better as a person and like my
mental health feels better knowing I'm gonna be here with
them rather than going to a Berlin nightclub, which does
sound fun. And I still might on vacation.
Speaker 2 (30:10):
Oh, you definitely need to go to Bergain, Garrett.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Oh, yeah, I have.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
I have planned three days that feel like about four
hours in Bergaine.
Speaker 3 (30:17):
I am, I am, I'm excited. I am for the
first time planning to leave the continent this year, which
is a little bit scary because re entering the United
States is pretty tricky right now, which should also play
into your considerations.
Speaker 2 (30:30):
Yeah. Yes, the general safety of air travel at the.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Moment, safety and air travel now that we don't have
a gay man running the planes.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Uh yeah, it turns out he was actually all right.
Speaker 3 (30:40):
At bat woke was keeping those planes in the air, you.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
Know, kudos to him. Turns out he was okay at
bet job.
Speaker 3 (30:53):
But but yes, I don't know what I was saying,
but I'm sure it was really important and well thought
through about not abandoning people who maybe don't have the
same resources that you do.
Speaker 4 (31:05):
Yeah, to your point about like coming back to the US,
understand that like one of the things that migrants to
deal with, even if they get to a place and
they have some degree permanents and they feel safe there,
is that they will never be able to go back
to where they're from in most cases, right, that means
when someone in their family passes away, they can't be
there for the funeral. That means that when they have
(31:28):
a grandchild, they have a niece or a nephew, something
happens in their community and they want to be there
to help. It's a natural disaster. They are just stuck.
And that's not something to like to discount as something
that's not important, Like that is really hard. And if
you have a community now, especially for trans folks, right,
(31:49):
Like I just think that, like there are so many
places where, like you say, Garrison, where bigotry against transfolks
is being more and more normalized. So like, if you
have a community where people where you're experiencing every day
with the people you're around, like leaving that should be
something that you really think hard about because that can
be hard to find yeah, yeah, expecting in Edinburgh because
(32:10):
they're old turfs with the in the cafes.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
That's not too.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
Just to be clear, Yeah, I mean, this is kind
of the discussion I wanted to have. I'm sure we
all have more thoughts on this that we will we
will express very eloquently as soon as we close this
recording session.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
That's how we do it.
Speaker 3 (32:29):
But but I know, this is this type of stuff
that we've been thinking about. I know, I know listeners
have been too. Because you're asking us these questions. It's
certainly annoying that we don't have a concise yes or
no answer. But there isn't a concise yes or no answer.
I think the most concise one I have is that
you should be giving yourself as many options as you can.
If that includes applying for Irish citizenship because your grandfather
(32:53):
is Irish, then hey, why not go for it?
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Right, Ireland's great, nice country. You'll like it.
Speaker 3 (33:00):
But I am I am trepidacious. I guess about about
you know, public calls to flee the country at this
point and kind of the underlying politics and ideology of that,
let alone the kind of the logistical aspects of trying
to relocate to a different country where you are not
a citizen, And frankly, I think there will be a
(33:21):
lot of countries that are not super eager to take
American immigrants. I think Canada is typically kind of, kind
of low key been one of these places. Especially if
we're going to go to war with Canada to make
it the fifty first state, then it might also uh
create create some some some tricky aspects.
Speaker 4 (33:40):
You could make it hot.
Speaker 3 (33:41):
But I know if anyone else has any any other thoughts,
air them now or forever. Be beholdened to angry Reddit comments.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Yeah, please don't burn each other down on Reddit, like
now is the time to give people a little grace
and be kind to other people.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Don't flee to Belgium. Stay away from Belgium at all costs.
Speaker 4 (34:00):
I had a nice time in Belgium.
Speaker 3 (34:01):
What do you have against Belgium? I have a friend
in Belgium.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
As an Italian. I think we need to go to
war with them again. You know, it's what made Caesar great.
It could make us great again. That's my stance on Belgium.
It's Italian territory.
Speaker 4 (34:14):
I stand with the Belgian people.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
It could happen here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
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It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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