The Gang Reviews Andor Season 2, Ep. 7-9

Robert, Mia, and Garrison discuss the third arc of Andor Season 2, covering the Ghorman Massacre. Terrorist cells are uniting under the boot of the Empire, a riot pits undercover agents vs outside agitators, and we see the consequences of bending the truth.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Zone media. Oh my god, it's it's it could
happen here, it is, and it's talking about it happening here,
you know about uh what we're you know, what's happening
in a galaxy far far away. These are the and
Or episodes we're talking about episodes Jesus, what is it?

Speaker 2 (00:20):
Seven through nine and then through nine.

Speaker 1 (00:21):
Seven through nine of and Or Season two, when this
is done, will be three quarters of the way over with.
I mean, one of the best seasons of television ever made.
So you know, savor it, folks, enjoy it, and enjoy
these podcasts. Yeah, eloquent Garrison, thank you, Thank you me

(00:44):
hearties raised the Hondo Anaka flag.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
And let's watch some and Or. This is episode three
of our Star Wars and Or Politics review podcast. The
person grumbling in the intro is Robert Evans. I'm Garrison Davis.
We are all so joined by Mia Wong. Let's start
with episode seven. I think this arc in general might

(01:07):
be my favorite arc of the whole show. Frankly, they
did some really fun stuff. Oh yeah, and seven's mostly
set up. This is episode seven, titled Messenger. I'll do
a quick overview and then we can discuss some of
the set up to the Gorman massacre. So rebel militias
are forming an army on the fourth moon of Yavin.

(01:29):
Willman returns from the planet Gorman with a special mission
for Cassian Loosen Once isb agent Dedra Miro assassinated to
protect the Axis network. The Empires failed to secure an
alternative to the Gorman mineral calkite, and ISP command tells
Dedra that an Imperial fleet will be sent to Gorman

(01:49):
in two days and to prepare for a declaration of
Marshall domain.

Speaker 1 (01:54):
Yeah. I want to note at the start of this
kind of what we see because we're watching one year
jumps between these, this is the first time where it's
been made really clear the rebellion has moved on from
scattered insurgent groups to a functional army. Like when we're
introduced to Yavin, there's a transport landing, a group of
soldiers are getting off and they're being told like, okay,

(02:15):
your ration cards are here, and like you need to
report in here and here this is where you're billeted.
It's very like standard professional military stuff. So we are
now at the point where the rebellion that and or
has been portraying previously is not around anymore. The rebellion
has moved on largely, and those old networks still exist

(02:36):
to some extent, but that is not the heart of
it anymore.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah, and that's a big part of what this episode
is starting to set up now on Gorman. Imperial presence
on the planet has already increased dramatically in the past year.
A new imperial headquarters the towers above the capital city
of Palmo. Security forces are stationed throughout the city with
checkpoints and a mandatory curfew. The past few weeks there's
been story of insurgent attacks against the Empire, most recently

(03:03):
the bombing of a naval depot. Imperial News reports that
quote unquote inexplicable Gorman terrorists.

Speaker 1 (03:10):
Their hate for imperial norms.

Speaker 2 (03:13):
Are getting help from quote unquote outside agitators.

Speaker 1 (03:17):
Which is not untrue actually for once, but also not
like the core of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, and
I think that that's part of the part of the point, right,
like that, that's part of what Luthen's going for, is
he wants to keep them sort of obsessed with this
side of things, in part because Luthan knows that it's

(03:38):
moved on right, Like Luthen knows that the rebellion is
in Yavin, now you know he is. He's not entirely
a side show, but he's no longer the heart of it.
And yeah, every resource they waste looking at his network
is a time they're not spent looking at Yavin.

Speaker 2 (03:53):
Yeah, and Luthan's still trying. I mean, like the outside
agitators here is probably mostly like Luthen's guys who've been
trying to build up the insurgency on Gorman simply to
make some sort of political crisis and then you know,
also help the people who have already committed to resisting
the Empire, help them actually, like do that beyond what
the Gorman Front has been like, parading around and doing

(04:15):
you know, little little protests in front of the memorial
for the past few years. Lucien was like, if these
guys want to do this seriously, let's let's see what
happens when we do it seriously. And that's kind of
what we've resulted to here. The Empire has sent a
quote unquote crisis specialist and a riot team to assist
Dedra in managing any civil unrest. Cyril Karn starts questioning

(04:40):
what the Empire wants with Gorman and what he's really
been doing these past two years. Yeah, Detra tells him
to packs things as they'll soon be leaving together for Corussant.
Back on Yavin four, Bicks takes a skeptical Cassion to
a Force healer to help with a stubborn blaster burn.

(05:00):
Though Cassian resists, the healer can sense that Cassian is
somehow important. He has main character energy. Cassian is split
between Luthen and the growing organized rebellion Yeah, but decides
to take a rebel you Wing Starfighter to Gorman and
undercover as a journalist. Cassian checks into the hotel at

(05:21):
Palmo Square and sets his sights on isb Agent de
dra m hm. So, Yeah, a lot of this episode
is like showing how the rebels are actually like growing
an army before they've really put together the formal rebel alliance,
like they're they're getting so much closer to that, but
at this point it's it's like a whole bunch of

(05:42):
little like militias that are operating on the same base
and are starting to set up like rules and guidelines,
and like Cassian butts up against some of those rules
a little bit here.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
Because he can't go and come as he pleases anymore, right,
Like it gets him in trouble with General Draven.

Speaker 2 (05:56):
Yeah, it's not just rebel cells that are operating independently.
Now they are trying out working together and that has
some growing pains.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (06:04):
Well, and it's not just working together too, Like it's
it's the command structure totally. Structure is becoming increasingly centralized
in a way that it hasn't been. Well, it's the
previous to this has been like the centralizing thing has
been like Luthen kind of being an asshole to everyone
but like moving stuff between them. And now it's like.

Speaker 2 (06:20):
Or Sagarera, right where where he operates as like a
cult of personality type thing with his own militia.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Yeah right, well, but I mean I mean like between
all of the different networks the central Yeah. And now
it's like, no, we have this place where we're developing
a chain of command and we're developing these sort of
like totally we're going to become increasingly rigid like hierarchies.
And in this, in this whole thing.

Speaker 2 (06:40):
Luthen's becoming a somewhat controversial figure and is kind of
getting pushed out of the actual organized rebellion because he's
a little bit difficult to work with, Yeah, because he's
an asshole.

Speaker 1 (06:53):
Like it's like, yeah, well he's he's he's doing what
he has to do. I mean, I'm I'm I'm Luthen's
last defender. If he's only got one fan, it's me.
And Luthan is doing is handling this exactly how he
has to. There's no room to be nice and there's
no room for anybody's feelings in this. But that you know,

(07:14):
what we do see is people choosing.

Speaker 2 (07:17):
Now.

Speaker 1 (07:18):
I want to be involved in this kind of bigger
and more structured thing where the way I am treated
is less dependent upon the whims of this guy at
the spoke, where I don't get to know anything, where
there is a command structure, where there is there is
a degree to which it's more like predictable how things
will be day to day. Right, A lot of people
do prefer that. Yeah, And also this at this stage

(07:40):
of the rebellion, if you're going to take on a
military like this, you need a formalized course, you need
more of a command structure, you need a chain of command,
and people need to know who is calling shots in
what situations because you simply can't function effectively in a
large scale in combat without it.

Speaker 2 (08:00):
Yeah, well, we'll talk more about kind of Luthen's situation
in episode nine. Luthen of it all, because then that
kind of gets more into like what his current place
is in the rebellion, but like really like the role
that he occupied is is frankly no longer needed, Like
like and he's even acknowledging this, like they're they're they're
going beyond the sort of like you know, like small

(08:20):
scale like intel network, arms deals, like all this type
of like like covert you know, the Eldni raid. They're
growing beyond what Luthen really specialized in. And and now
they're doing a full on military and and Luthen's always
been operating kind of like a DIY like spy agency,
and and now they're they're put they're they're doing a
whole military and and that kind of butts up against

(08:42):
how Luthen like what wants to operate and like what
he's like frankly just capable of doing. Like he's he
understands the importance of Yaben, but he's also okay with
not being there in person.

Speaker 1 (08:54):
Well I don't think he thinks he fits there right exactly?

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, yeah, totally.

Speaker 1 (08:57):
Yeah, Like his whole thing has is such a an
idiosyncratic organization' that's just based around him and Claiya, you know, this,
this young woman that he works with. Like there's no
place for him in a military command structure. That's not
his thing.

Speaker 2 (09:12):
The other thing this episode really focuses on is like,
you know, news propaganda and like the idea of like
like terrorism outside agitators and using those things as justifications
for state crackdowns. The senator from Gorman talks with mon
Mathma about about how he believes that like the Empire
is lying about what's happening on Gorman and these bombings

(09:34):
must be like a false flag attack. So you got
to see a whole bunch of different people's perspectives and
like validity of the actions that are happening on Gorman.
Like there's there's questions over like who's doing this. Is
the state just making these things up so that they
have a justification to crack down on us? Are these
things genuine or are they are they being done by
by people on Gorman who are like aligned with the
resistance but maybe are getting like outside help. You have

(09:57):
all those sorts of questions, and then the news medias
like manufacturing consent for an imperial crackdown like what was
discussed in like the very first episode.

Speaker 3 (10:06):
It's very it's very seventies Italy, like because there's these
bombings happening, because there's all this weird shit and because
nobody knows exactly who's doing what, everyone is like kind
of become conspiracy brained and like half the conspiracies are true,
but not only ones people think are the ones that
are true. And it's it's just like the information space
has become so messy when you're dealing with such a

(10:27):
combination of like of like of these attacks and of
these like different kinds of above and below ground organizations
where nobody knows exactly, no one's exactly talking to each other,
and yeah, it just gets so messy so quickly.

Speaker 2 (10:38):
Even the Gorman Front itself is like debating this. Like
they had this whole meeting where they discussed like tactics,
like the role of the role of violence, and like,
as these big arguments erupt, they start to reflect on
how the empire is actually like set them up for infighting,
and the most time they spend doing this, the less
time they're actually doing anything helpful on Gorman or like

(11:00):
doing anything that actually can secure their own like liberation
or their own like you know, combat against the suppressive force.

Speaker 1 (11:06):
There's a good part in that scene where they're debating
it where the guy who gets who kind of stumbles
upon them doing the robbery. Yeah in the last like yeah, yeah, yeah,
it has a speech where he's basically like, look, man,
everyone's like whatever they're doing, whatever their attitude about the
right way to resist, they're all Gorman's to me, and
so they're all on my side. Yeah, right, And I

(11:28):
like the way that he that he expressed that because
it very much as we're going to talk about next episode.
It comports with who that guy is as a as
a resistor. Right.

Speaker 2 (11:38):
There's like national identity is a big concept in these episodes,
but not in like a fascistic nationalist sense.

Speaker 1 (11:46):
No, as in, we're all in this, We're all going
to hang together, is what I think he's saying, like
like national solidarity.

Speaker 3 (11:53):
Yeah yeah, it's like eighteen twenties kind of like or
even like Ireland, right, like yeah, yeah, and like you know,
I can give a speech here about where this is
going in about how shin Fein's like Tarty gets imbigers
and trans people, but it's also like that's just like
that what's happening right now. This is like eighteen twenty,
not like nineteen twenty.

Speaker 2 (12:10):
The last thing I want to talk about in this
arc before we go on break is this Force healer
that Cassian reluctantly visits in the Yavin for mess Hall. Yeah,
this was a super interesting scene to me, and this
is the first time we have seen any mention of
the Force. Really. Yeah, this is like the big spiritual

(12:30):
moment in this series, and Or has kind of veered
away from like the mystical side of Star Wars in
favor of the more like materialist politics the Star Wars.
That they concluded this here, I thought was really interesting
and really well done. And the reason why I like
it so much is that, like throughout the Rebel Alliance,

(12:51):
they always like agreet each other and like say goodbye
by saying may the Force be with you, which is
a little bit odd because the Rebel Alliance isn't like
a Jedi revivalist They're not like a Force cult in
the way that so many other groups and you know
Star Wars TM are and the fact that you have
people who engage with the Force and it's more like
regular manner, more similar to like kind of like hippie

(13:15):
woo spiritualist stuff that that props up in like radical
spaces I find really interesting. Yeah, And obviously in Star
Wars that has more of like a legitimate backing because
we all recognize the forces real. In Star Wars, the
Force is fake, it's a psio.

Speaker 3 (13:29):
It's just the alien god thing in the Black Holes Force.

Speaker 1 (13:34):
In part what I love that and er is how
big it makes the universe seem because Cassian. Cassian isn't
like he doesn't have like the you know, there's that
line in a New Hope where basically Hans like I
don't know, like Han's clearly heard of the Jedi, but
he's like I don't need like I don't give a
shit about this.

Speaker 2 (13:52):
I don't need hokey religions or special efforts.

Speaker 1 (13:55):
It's like somebody talking about yeah, like like Wicca, right,
Like if you're just like a Doude who's a fucking
drug dealer, You're like, I don't need to hear about that. Man,
I got, I got fucking.

Speaker 3 (14:04):
Heroin to move, Like, yeah, it's very it's very much
like it's it's very much like faith Healer coded. It's like,
oh god, no, I'm not gonna see the faith Healer
come on, Like no, yeah, And and he talks about
how him and his like his mom had like a
bad experience with a horse a healer like ten years ago,
and you're like, this is this is a whole like

(14:24):
scam operation as well, Yeah, like fake force healers.

Speaker 1 (14:27):
And beyond that, the thing that's unset is what we
know about Cassie, and is he was raised on a
planet completely cut off from the rest of the galaxy.
His childhood was as a hunter gatherer in the deep jungle,
and he was, presumably, as all peoples in that situation
always have, raised with a set of beliefs about the
universe and spirituality that were completely shattered when his entire

(14:48):
planet was annihilated by the Empire.

Speaker 2 (14:50):
Right, was it by the Republic?

Speaker 1 (14:52):
Well it was, it was it was in that transition
of the.

Speaker 2 (14:54):
Fuzio between the Republic and the Empire.

Speaker 1 (14:57):
Yeah, yes, But of course he doesn't belie even anything correct,
Like he had some sort of set of beliefs, and
the entire cosmology of his planet was annihilated, Like why
would he believe in anything?

Speaker 2 (15:11):
I just like what this does for like the Alliance itself,
and it shows that the Force is like a regular
part of these people's lives. And like specifically the way
the Force Healer talks is more about like the Force
as this as this like operator of like fate and destiny.
And it can sense that Cassie and Andor is the
main character in Rogue Wan a Star Wars story, and
is important for the story of Star Wars, and she

(15:32):
can feel that this is important, and so condicts and
and and Or is also freaked out by that like feeling.
And I do like that version of the Force a lot.
I think that's a much more interesting way to do
it than just like you know, force cults in like
a forever religious war with each other for thousands of years.

Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yeah, if you pas us an unbelievably large amount of money,
Gearson and I will have our six hour argument. We
will every time about the Force with Star Wars. I
do also like that it's not one hundred percent clear
that this person is even for sensitive.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
She can like feel through the force but like everyone
can with some degree of training.

Speaker 3 (16:07):
Yeah, but it's well, but it's it's it's also like
not clear that it's like like she's just a girl,
she's yeah, yeah, but like if it's.

Speaker 1 (16:15):
Not a hundred his back seems to feel better.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
Yeah, no, yeah, totally yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:19):
But but but but also like that's the thing, like
it's it's not it's not like a thing like Okay,
this is like a Jedi, right, they're using the Force,
and you could tell using the Force. This is a
lot more kind of like nebulous, and it's not one
hundred percent clear if it's happening or if it's everyone
is like I think just thinks that it's happening, or
like what's you know, it's it's very no, yeah, that's.

Speaker 2 (16:40):
Why I like it, Like, yeah, it's it's not a Jedi,
it's just it's just someone and everyone in this universe
can have a connection with the Force because that's how
this universe works, and some people don't want to or
think it's fake, and other people get really into it.
Some people get way too into it, and then they
and then they do genocides in the name of the
of their religious order. But for a lot of people
like this who aren't like a Jedi. You aren't like

(17:01):
a sith or you know, a whatever, a guardian of
the wills. God, it's just a thing you can like
connect with and you can like feel your way through
like fate and destiny.

Speaker 1 (17:10):
Well, and I really like that. They must have there
must have been a discussion, should we have her say
she used to be like a paddaw Right who somehow
escaped Order sixty six.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
That must have been God, she's not.

Speaker 1 (17:22):
Thank God, they just didn't. We don't know what she
don't care need to tell her matter because no one
in the situation would give a shit. Yeah, Cassiean's not
gonna be like, so yeah, tell me about like your
fucking bad. He doesn't give He doesn't give a fuck.
There's so much else going on in his head at
that moment.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
So much better that she's just a random person.

Speaker 1 (17:39):
And we never know. We never know.

Speaker 2 (17:41):
All right, let's go and break and come back to
talk about the Gorman massacre. Yay, Okay, we are back
and ors he's in two, episode eight eight. Who are you?

Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah? Ugh, I just I will talk a lot about
the name of this episode. Oh yeah, baby, because I
love it because it's it's just some of the best
writing that this show or any show has ever had. Yeah, yeah,
please go ahead and give us the over there.

Speaker 2 (18:16):
Let's let's do a quick run down.

Speaker 1 (18:18):
Yeah yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 (18:19):
As mining equipment lands across Gorman, troops barricade the Imperial
headquarters in Palmo Square as they prepare for a mass protest.
The Gorman Front prepares to retake the town square, distributing
weapons and rallying just regular Gorman citizens to march on
the town center. The old leader of the Front realizes

(18:40):
too late that this protest is probably an Imperial trap
and is powerless to stop this unfolding spectacle. He encounters
a Cyril Kern on his way to the Imperial HQ
and confronts Cyril about misleading the Gorman Resistance and why
the Empire is mining on Gorman.

Speaker 1 (18:57):
Oh, and this scene is the guy who plays there's
so many great monologues in this The dude who plays Rylands,
who is the old rich guy who's kind of the
organizing center of the Gorman Front.

Speaker 2 (19:08):
The original one.

Speaker 1 (19:09):
Yeah, has a beautiful speech here where he's just how
can you say these things?

Speaker 2 (19:14):
What kind of being are you?

Speaker 1 (19:16):
What kind of being, are you.

Speaker 3 (19:20):
Yeah, it's excellent, It's perfect, It's devastating.

Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah. Cyril breaks free and makes his way through the
chanting crowd that's filled a square.

Speaker 1 (19:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (19:31):
After arriving at the barricaded Imperial Tower, Cyril sneaks into
Dedra's office to demand to know what the Empire wants
on Gorman. He chokes Dedra as she confesses that this
has all been for the Emperor's new energy program, and
she promises that they will soon return to Corussant as heroes.

Speaker 1 (19:50):
We'll get everything we want. The Empire will reward us
for our loyalty. Is this is it? This is the
last fucked up thing we have to do and then
we can live happily ever after.

Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, didn't you want this promotion?

Speaker 2 (20:01):
Yeah? Yeah. She says that this might be the previous
episode or this one, but like when Zerol like kind
of like protests that just like, yeah, but you weren't
complaining when you got promoted into this job. But Zero
wishes Dedra good luck, and he leaves to join the
crowd outside Cassie and is stationed on the outskirts of
the crowd, trying to line up a shot to take

(20:22):
out Dedra, but stormtroopers soon kettle the crowd and Imperial
riot cops are sent into the square to jumpstart a
flash point. Protesters throw rocks and bottles, but it's an
Imperial sniper who is ordered to shoot their own riot
cops that starts the Gorman massacre.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
And they make the beautiful point. The kettling is done
by stormtroopers who are the elite, right, These are their
very best infantry, the riot cops. From the moment they're introduced,
because we see these guys land with their kit bags,
their sergeant clearly has a lot more experience and is like,
these guys don't know what the fuck they're doing. We
cannot put them in any kind of dangerous and that's

(21:03):
the point. That's why they're there. These men were handpicked
to be the worst of the Empire. Here's they're expendable, right,
and because you can count on them to panic, and
that's what's needed.

Speaker 2 (21:13):
They're cannon fodders. Yeah, they're sacrificial lambs.

Speaker 1 (21:16):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:16):
Now, Sir Cyril watches the chaos unfold as the Gorman
Front tries to defend against the Imperial slaughter and chax.
Security droids are sent into the town square, but when
Cyril sees Cassian, he suddenly lunges at him and the
two get into a brutal brawl. Cyril gets the upper hand,
but is shocked when Cassian does not remember who he is.

(21:41):
While frozen, pointing his blaster at Cassian, Cyril gets shot
dead by the old leader of the Gorman Front.

Speaker 1 (21:48):
There's Rylans.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
It's an incredible moment.

Speaker 1 (21:52):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (21:53):
While trying to exfiltrate Cassian meets up with Willem, who
decides to stay and help the resistance. In the aftermath
of the massacre, the Gorman Front broadcast the final message
about the Imperial siege, claiming there are thousands dead in
the streets. Cyril's mother is in tears watching news reports
coming out of Gorman that framed the Imperial troopers killed
as fallen heroes. Yeah, oh boy, what an episode. Maybe

(22:17):
the best episode in the series. Who just phenomenal.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
It's phenomenal. I'll give you that. I don't know whish
i'd pick us the best, but it's tough. It's tough.

Speaker 3 (22:26):
I think it's the prison break one still, because a
break one's very good.

Speaker 1 (22:29):
I'm going to go on a little rant about the
name of this episode who Are You, because that moment
between Cassian and Cyril is one that Tony Gilroy ha
said in interviews he had to fight for everyone was like
just crazy and Diego Luna said it was one of
the hardest lines for me to deliver because Luna likes
the show and is a fan of the character Cyril

(22:50):
and his acting, and he knows every and it has
the degree of sympathy that you almost have to have
for Cyril at this point totally, and so it was
such a difficult challenge for him to be like to
really sell who the fuck are you?

Speaker 2 (23:02):
Who shattererril self perception?

Speaker 1 (23:05):
Well, and it's it's not even I'll even push against
a little bit that because I don't think it's entirely that.
I think what I like about Cyril's journey is that,
And what I like about this episode is that who
Are You is not just about that line. It is
about every character that we see in this We are
learning who they all are, and they are learning who
they all are. Ryelands in the beginning, right, this guy

(23:27):
who had been so gung ho about the Gorman resistance,
who had been when he realizes what's happening that they're
all going to be massacred. His family and his culture
are going to be wiped out as a result of
this act of resistance that he's helped to organize. He
tries to stop it. He says, we have to pull back,
and he learns he's not a rebel. Right, and there's

(23:47):
always been hints of that. He's not a rebel. He's
always you know, the Emperor can't know about this, right,
We've seen hints of this from Mark Rylance. He learns
that about himself. And then a little later in the
episode when it's become because we watch his kids get massacred. Yeah,
he doesn't see them, but he knows they're dead. He
hears the gunfire, he understands no one's making it out
of there. He's not a dumb man. And when he

(24:09):
comes in and shoots Cyril in the head, he learns
again who he is. And now he wasn't before, but
now he is because they've taken everything from him. Right.

Speaker 2 (24:18):
Yeah, the quote from earlier when he's like arguing with
people in the streets, he's like, the only path forward
is silent resistance. Yeah, And by the end of the
episode he is a little beyond that.

Speaker 1 (24:30):
And I love for him that he gets a chance
to learn who he is and be wrong and then
learn again and be right right, which is not a
chance Cyril is going to get. Cyril does and all
Cyril is. We see, we see a lot of characters
in this who could only have been themselves in a
fascist state. Dedra's one of them, right, Dedra could not

(24:52):
have been the person she is outside of the Empire total.
I think part of Oz probably is too, could never
have been him self fully outside Certainly well, I think
if you.

Speaker 3 (25:03):
Put Partigos in the CIA, he is mostly the same guy.

Speaker 1 (25:08):
I think he must have been in the Republic CIA.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah. He feels very like Republic transitioned into the Empire. Ye,
like God.

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Yeah, And I think Krenick obviously is one of our best.
Krenic is only am under fascism. Cyril is not an
ideological fascist. Cyril never really embraces fascism as a belief system.
He never understands the Empire that way. He just understands
the Empire's law and order he gets if you look
at it from Cyril's standpoint. He gets brought into this

(25:37):
not because he wants to cramp down on clamp down
on the evil rebels, and he loves Palpatine and wants
to kill Freedom. It's because two guys are murdered that
he considers colleagues, and he thinks it's wrong.

Speaker 2 (25:49):
Right. He has a sense of like justice, and he believes.

Speaker 1 (25:52):
He's following that, and he believes that his girlfriend is
invested in that, and he truly believes. He doesn't want
to hurt the people of Gorman. He wants to find
the outside agitators who are driving them to disaster, right,
And the moment when he learns that that's all a lie,
he beats the shit out of his girlfriend in a
very violence. I had an argument with someone online about like,

(26:12):
is this domestic violence? And I'm like, in a literal sense,
these people are in a domestic partnership, and he is
doing violence to her. In a moral sense, if you
find out that your significant other has been hiding a
genocide from you, I think it's okay. Like, and you've
been made complicit in it.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
It's such a fucked upsy. It's such a it's such
like every everyone is, everyone's fucked and everyone's evil and
everyone's complicit. Yes, and they're all like calling their own
commitment to like the state and what they view as
justice and law and order into question, and like for Cyril,
like he's he has just committed to this idea like
justice and what he sees as law and order, and

(26:52):
the Empire is the physical manifestation of law and order,
So therefore the Empire must be good, right, and and
that's his view, Yeah, and when he really maybe the
Umpire actually doesn't really.

Speaker 1 (27:02):
Care about law and order, No, they just like it
gets so.

Speaker 2 (27:06):
Confused, like he he doesn't know how to orient himself
in the world. He doesn't know where a sense of
morals can be derived from. No, if the state is
not the represent is not like the lawful good representation
of like justice.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
And we've seen from Cyril previously that he has physical courage, right,
he's not afraid of violence. He's not afraid of putting
himself in physical danger, right, Like he's not a Cassian
and or level comfortable with it, right because he just
doesn't have that kind of experience. But he's not he's
not physically a coward, but he's a moral coward the
whole series, and that changes and again going back to

(27:41):
who are you, he understood he learns one thing about himself,
which is that he is not a genocide committer, right,
he is not someone who will consciously participate in the
annihilation of a race. Right when he learns that those
are the stakes he hits, he chokes Dedra and he
fucking runs. He doesn't know anything else about himself at
that point. And my interpretation of his reaction to that

(28:04):
line from Cassian isn't just because I think what I
love about the scene when he chooses to attack him.
It's not him making a decision to go back to
the Empire. He's not trying to rest to fight Cassian
because he wants to get back and good. It's just
the only thing that makes sense. He's nothing to his
child's self. Yes, yes, it's it's crazy because I mean

(28:24):
it's animal. The way that he goes after him is
like a rabbit dog charging, you know.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Like this whole situation on Gorman calls into question how
he sees the Empire and therefore how he sees himself
as he realizes that he's just been upawn in the
Empire's larger game, and like, in a way, Gorman's the
first time that Cyril's been part of like a real
community maybe since he was like a Corpo cop, Like
there's no like solidarity in community like on Coorissant, there's
not in the Bureau of Standards. Like Gorman's the first

(28:50):
time he's actually kind of been a part of a community.
And like this happens with like with like FBI double
agents infiltrating radical organizations. Sometimes it's it's very odd. So
like when he decides to join the crowd, it's just
like he's aligning with them. But then when he sees
Cassie and all of this psychological like progress, and the
question that he's done just gets immediately rolled back because

(29:11):
then he sees the guy who he thinks like kind
of like ruined his life, who like who who altered
the trajectory of what Cyril's life was supposed to be,
And therefore he just he yeah, he he like turns
into an animal. He undoes all of all of this
psychological progress and attacks the guy that he views ruined
his life, and then in his final moments is in

(29:31):
part like confronted with the idea that like the guy
that he's been obsessing over for years doesn't even remember
who he is, and like Cassian's been living rent free
in his head this whole time, and and like he
didn't need to, Like Cyril could have moved on. Cyril
didn't need to do this, And he's been obsessing over
someone who doesn't even remember him.

Speaker 3 (29:49):
So I think the other thing that's really important about
Cyril's character is like if if you remember him in
like the very beginning of season one, right, he has
like like like what he like goes home, like he
has like a storm he has like storm tuber like figure.

Speaker 2 (30:01):
In ye clone troop like action figure.

Speaker 3 (30:03):
Yes, and and he has and you know, and he's
he's like tailoring his own uniform because he has this
conception of himself as this, like you know, as like
this like this brave cop as this like sort of
like like this like this this is very specific kind
of like fascist bureaucrat with a.

Speaker 2 (30:18):
Gun like platonic figure. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (30:20):
And the thing is Dentri Miro is that actual person
and this is and this is a tension that that
they that it's kind of worked out or of course
season one if like Dendrimuro is a character who in
a conventional show is a hero, right, like she is
she is she is like the cop that's willing to
work outside of the restrictions of the thing in order
to get the job done. Yeah, and then and you
get to see what that actually is in real life,

(30:42):
which is she's just fucking torturing people, and you know,
and she's torturing people, and she's going and she and
and when she gets offered a chance to do the
genocide in order to do investment, she gets that.

Speaker 2 (30:52):
And I think part of what's.

Speaker 3 (30:52):
Going on with Cerial is like Cyril's whole thing is
that he has been trying to be this cop and
then he he has this moment where he's like, oh shit,
none of that's like real. The actual thing that it
means to be this cop isn't just this isn't this
like I dress up in my in my client was closed.
And he gets this season one too, where he like

(31:13):
actually goes into the field and it's just like everyone's
fucking dying around him and he's shell shocked and things
are exploding, and it's like he's getting that here again
where it's like his' like thing where he's been cultivating
this like intelligence person and he sees it and it
just like it just sort of it rips away the
facade that's like that is the facade of how like

(31:34):
on a kind of macro level, like how we how
film and television and how American media thinks about like
spies and thinks about cops. Sure, and and you see
that the actual brutal reality of it, which is like
through through the eyes of this person who who who
like through through through this sort of like media stuff,
has always wanted to become this person and is like, oh,

(31:55):
you're just doing a genocide. The one part of being
a cop that I can do is is like choking.
He's like choking my partner.

Speaker 1 (32:03):
So my interpretation of kind of his ending moments is
that Number One, I don't really feel it is necessarily
that he undoes all the progress. I think that there's
this this animal moment when he sees Cassian that just
overrides ever, because nothing else about his life has makes
sense anymore. He's completely lost any sense of sanity, and

(32:24):
Cassian makes sense. Fighting him makes sense, and so he
does it, and we do see he has a chance
to shoot him, and he hesitates and he lowers the
gun just a bit and then he's immediately shot. And
in that moment, Number one. One of the themes of
this is that, like everyone has their own rebellion, there's
an argument you can make that him not doing that

(32:45):
was his last little act of that. There's an argument
that like maybe he would have, you know, tried to
engage in conversation or like you know, monologued or whatever,
but he didn't get the chance. We just don't know.
We'll never know. And he's he's kind of contrasted with
Rylans and that Rylens does get the chance to see
who he is and have it be not enough and
then become enough. Cyril gets the chance to see who

(33:08):
he is, and he does do one. He gets one win,
and it is a win to realize there's a genocide
going on and I refuse to be a part of it. Right,
That's not nothing that he makes that choice. We don't
know where he would have gone from here. There's a
version of Cyril that could have been a part of
the rebel, that could have if he had just left
Cassie and helped some Gorman's escape on a ship, used
his imperial credentials, gotten them out of there. It becomes

(33:32):
something else we'll never know because he doesn't get the
chance and I see in that last moment not just
him being like you don't know who I am? Oh,
that shatters me, but him being asked who are you
and realizing I have no answer to that question? Yeah yeah,
and he just doesn't get the chance ever to do that.

Speaker 2 (33:51):
It is a very like Greek tragedy, ugh like mobent tier. Yeah, phenomenal,
phenomenal screenwriting.

Speaker 1 (33:58):
I will argue it's going to get paid off a
lot in the next three episodes. But this idea that
has run through the series that even if you are
someone working within this machinery of death, within this evil empire,
you're not unredeemable or unsavable, but you don't have unlimited time. Right, Yeah,
you can be something else. You have that chance, but

(34:21):
you don't have infinite days to make that choice.

Speaker 2 (34:25):
This is like the entire message of Star Wars, Like
this is this is like Luke Invader in the Throne Room.
This is like what this whole series is about. Like
is this moment?

Speaker 1 (34:35):
Yeah, yep.

Speaker 2 (34:37):
I do have a few other things I want to
talk about in terms of like the massacre. I really
like that we see a return of like Imperial military police,
not just stormtroopers. I think putting a face on the
riot cops is really good for the audience because stormtroopers
are backpacks and t shirts and little fun toys and
riot cops or riot cops. I'd really like that Willman

(34:59):
is the being with a French militant many such.

Speaker 1 (35:01):
Cases cases who among us.

Speaker 2 (35:05):
Uh Hartagras in a like a phone call with dedra
Is talking about how like yeah, like you know, propaganda,
news media has been useful and like spreading like rumors
and like you know, like co intel pro that's for stuff.
It's been useful. But now the only the quote is
like now the only story is Gorman aggression. Like this
is all that we can focus on. There's there's no
no more of this like outside agitator's thing, no more

(35:28):
of this like long term slow planning. We have to
we just have to focus on how like savage these
Gormans are. And meanwhile, like Fox like space, Fox News
is outside stoking divisions on Gorman, talking about how there's
rumors of ay quote unquote general strike, how how how
the empire is negotiating for like a peaceful demonstration. Yea,

(35:48):
even though even though even though the leaders are obviously
you know, making making people agitated in this in this
growing insurrection. The chance got me. I have heard way
too many the whole the whole world is watching ants.
So as soon as they started to go the galaxy,
I started like, I started like get like sweat egg.

Speaker 1 (36:06):
I started having like no, no, that gave me a
little breakdown too. It's my least favorite.

Speaker 2 (36:12):
No it's happening again. No, no, no, the galaxy isn't watching. No,
it's not.

Speaker 1 (36:18):
There's that Oh I hate that chant. I hate that
fucking chance. But it's very real. It's very real, right,
like this these guys right, yes.

Speaker 2 (36:31):
We get, we get like a real proper riot set up, right,
Like the last riot in and Or was on Ferrex,
Like that was like a funeral riot.

Speaker 1 (36:38):
Right, it's almost like some of the writers have seen kettles.

Speaker 2 (36:42):
It's crazy, like it's crazy and like this time like
this is not like a morning ritual like like it
was on fair Like this is this is this is
a protest riot. There's there's signs, there's banners, there's fireworks,
there's smoke, there's space molotovs. There's state affiliated news cruise,
there's tie fighters flying over had like police copters and
police drums. It's excellent.

Speaker 1 (37:03):
I got a little flashback of being buzzed by a
police helicopter. It's standing rocks so close that it knocked
my car off the road.

Speaker 2 (37:10):
That's what happened with the tie Fighter. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 (37:14):
And it's like like like right down to like just
just like the micro dynamics of like how the crowd
is interacting with the riot shields. It's like, oh shit.

Speaker 2 (37:24):
And I got the same not in my stomach, what
I can tell that she's about to go down. Yeah,
I get this the same watching this like, they really
nailed It's.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
Great too, is it? With in the just in the
face acting, But with Cassie and and with Wilman, you
can see that they know they've been in this. They
know Willman is bat like okay, okay, okay, I know
what's happening.

Speaker 3 (37:46):
I also really like that. Okay, So so okay. So
the challenge that Gilroy has here is we have to
introduce the concept of kettling to the average Star Wars watcher.
And with the average Star Wars watcher, you can't be like, okay,
the police are going to form a wall. You have
to physically make walls come in around the thing.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
Like some people have said that the Gorman Mascer is
very clearly inspired by what's happened in Palestine. These episodes,
I'm sure were informed by other massacres in Palestine, but
these were written prior to the most current outbreak of
really intense genocidal violence.

Speaker 2 (38:23):
In like twenty two.

Speaker 1 (38:25):
Probably again there were other similar massacres that occurred in Palestine.
But also like this is very clearly patterned off of
Bloody Sunday in Northern Ireland. This is very clearly patterned
off of I would argue my suspicion the Ombits massacre
in India by the British government as well, Like I
think there are pieces of all of that in here.

Speaker 3 (38:45):
There's also elements that I heard friend of the show
Emmy Who's Great, talking about, like the Tlatalaco massacre, which
is like the massacre in nineteen sixty eight in a
square in the middle of Mexico City, which is masacre
where there's like these giant students sixty eight student protests
are happening and they just like put snipers on the
roods and shoot everyone.

Speaker 2 (39:03):
Mm hmm.

Speaker 3 (39:04):
And I think so when I saw this, like I
thought it was going to be a lot more of
just like a straight massacre. Everyone dies and it kind
of turns into a shootout, and I wasn't sure how
that was going to play. Also, I think it is
also worth remembering that, like also a lot of the
sort of famous historical massacres aren't like some people do

(39:26):
shoot back, yes, because the thing at Sienemen like some
of the some of some of the students like take
workers from soldiers that they fought and like shoot, well,
yeah this is this is more of the workers. And
by the time they get into the square with the students,
like those people don't have gone. Some of the workers
like try to fight back and just get massacred. But
it seems to have been really effective. Yeah, in just
like conveying that like, yeah, this shit happens constantly.

Speaker 1 (39:48):
It happened in my don too write where you have
you know, both you have Barkut snipers shooting and killing
protesters and you have protesters firing back from behind the barricades.

Speaker 2 (39:59):
Yeah. I really liked the singing the Gorba national anthem
as a way to like, yeah, stop the chanting, which
is like calling towards you know, like we're safe because
the galaxy's watching us, and like the guy who starts
to the song realizes like that maybe that's not true,
and instead this song like unites people in like national
solidarity to prepare them for what's about to happen, instead

(40:22):
of like gesturing outwards at like this at like you
know those those off planet watching this, and that insures
our safety, Like no, our safety is from like each other.
And the fact that, yeah, so many of them do
fire back and like it is it. They do not
like lose their agency, and that doesn't like make this
less of a massacre.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
Yeah, there's another example. This is like the Red Summer,
which is like a whole bunch of like anti anti
black race riots in the US, and it's it's another one.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
He thinks.

Speaker 3 (40:45):
It's like, yeah, it's remembered as like a bunch of
white supremacists just murdered a bunch of black people, and
that's true. But also people fought back, like people had guns,
people fought back, people resisted them, and you know a
lot of people fucking died. And also people in these
situations fly back, and it's good.

Speaker 2 (41:03):
The last thing I want to discuss in this last
section is the based hotel porter who throws.

Speaker 1 (41:08):
That viobe My god. Oh yeah, and again, yeah, we
are learning he already knows clearly, he knows who he is.
He never has any question about that. But we don't
know who he is. Cassian doesn't fully until he's like, yeah,
I wiped you from the system, bro, get out of here, right.

Speaker 2 (41:24):
That's what we're talking about, Yeah, is this is this
base hotel porter. And also that the way the way
Cassian works as a spy is different from the way
that other like Luther and operatives do. Like Cassian gets
to know this guy in the previous arc of episodes
when he's when he's like going to like survey the
Gorman Front like a year ago, and he gets into
a conversation with this hotel porter who was at like

(41:44):
the Tarkan massacre and was like was there when there
was like five hunch of people died and like his.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
Dad and his dad died protecting him watch his.

Speaker 2 (41:51):
Day like and or like converses with him in his
in his hotel room to like learn about like the
local people and to like learn about the actual history
from like a regular guy who experienced it. And this
isn't something that like Vell and Sint to really do.
This isn't something that Luthen really does like like and
Or has a connection or like and Or values making
connections with just like the regular people and wherever he's operating,

(42:14):
and this this always like trans outs to help and
Or in the long run, even if he doesn't really
know it in like the immediate because when Andor comes
back a year later under a different name with a
different job, the hotel porter recognizes him and is like,
I got you, buddy, ill take care. I know that
you're up to something and I will protect you, like

(42:36):
we're we are in this together. Like I recognize you,
and I like value you, and that is what like
helps helps and Or like in this episode. And then
also the grenades that he throws is you know cool uh.

Speaker 1 (42:51):
And there's there's a beautiful and Or's last line to
this kid is I hope things work out for you.
And the last thing we see that kid do is
detonate a bomb to kill himself and a bunch of
other people.

Speaker 2 (43:04):
Rebellions are built on hope.

Speaker 1 (43:06):
Yeah yeah, and he tells him rebellions are built on hope,
which is where we get that line from Rogue One.

Speaker 2 (43:11):
I like that, Sam the guy with two ms who
killed Sinta last Dark is still in the fight and
is killing imperials. He is, yes, he is killing them
in the name of Cinta. He is. He is showing up.

Speaker 1 (43:20):
He is real and he he he again. He learns
who he is in this episode, right, like he's not
just a fuck up. He rams a truck into that
K two unit and save saves Cassio, save saves the
whole day end. Yes, he learns too, Yeah, he learns who.

Speaker 2 (43:37):
I feel like that everything good that happens to Cassiod,
all the people who do it are like in part
like responsible for the destruction of the Death Star, which
shows how like the butterfly effect works in a really
fun way. Yeah, and like like a good Luther and operative,
Cassidan takes K two to get reprogrammed. But like this,
this episode like ends on this on this Gorman cry

(43:57):
for help, this like final broadcast done by Wilman's French
GF And I I was legitimately tearing up at this.
It got to me, and Ors starts tearing up, but
like it's it, It really got to me. And then
like we zoom out of Gorman and you can see
like how unnatural the imperial like tower is above like
the regular Palomo skyline with let's like you know, historical

(44:21):
architecture that you have this like just just like hideous,
like imperial like citadel, like casting a dark shadow over
the town. And then we we cut to Cyril's mom
crying watching Fox News where they're talking about how outside
rebel assistance helped the Gorman front and they question, what's
the price will pay for our own safety? And that's

(44:43):
how the episode ends. M h, what aisode?

Speaker 1 (44:47):
What asode?

Speaker 2 (44:48):
All Right, we'll go on a break and then come
back to briefly discuss this last episode, which is also
quite good. Okay, we're back. Episode nine, Welcome to the Rebellion.

(45:08):
Clone War's heads are feasting so much Senate very fun
so on Coussant. Fake news spreads about what has happened
on Gorman, and the Gorman senator is arrested with no
warrant and no charges. Man Mathma plans to make a
final speech in the Senate and then leave Coroissant with
bail Organa to lead the rebel alliance on Yavin, but

(45:29):
Senator Organa doesn't want to leave yet. He wants to
stay and buy time for Yavin to get fully up
and running, but he advises Man to go through with
the speech and offers an extraction team to help her
get off Corussant. While writing her speech, Man Mathma is
the Senate aid Erskin finds an ISB listening device in
her office. She goes outside to practice the speech, while

(45:52):
Erskin continues to search for more bugs. Waiting outside for
mon Is Luthan, who tells her that Erskin's been secretly
working for him for two years and that Bail's extraction
team is somehow corrupted. Man grows upset at Luthan's deceptions
and secrets and is unsure of who to trust, but

(46:12):
Luthan says that he is sending a highly trusted operative
as an alternative extraction plan. Cassian, still undercover as a
conflict journalist, agrees to escort Manmathma as his last job
for the rebellion. Other senators mourned the Imperial martyrs slain
by the Savage Gormans before Bail. Organa invokes a Senate

(46:33):
article to hand the Florida mon Mathma, where she gives
her speech, calling what's happened on Gorman a genocide and
labels Emperor Palpatine, a monster that, empowered by the Senate,
has hijacked the truth and reality. The ICB orders to
shut down the Senate feed and detain Senator Mathma, but
as Mon exits the Senate chamber, Cassian is waiting outside

(46:56):
as Luthen suspected one of Bail's extraction team members is
an ISB double agent, and kills another one of Baile's operatives.
Once they're found out. The undercover ICB agent tries to
arrest Mon, but is killed by Erskine and Cassian. Mon
helps navigate through the Senate building as it's put into lockdown,
eventually reaching her vehicle outside, where Cassian kills her driver, Chorus,

(47:17):
who's also an i SB plant.

Speaker 1 (47:19):
Well was maybe we'll talk about that. Yeah.

Speaker 2 (47:22):
Cassian takes Wilman to Yavin for medical attention while Gold
Squadron finishes Mon's escort to the rebel base back on Base,
Bix breaks up with Cassian via snapchat message and leaves
Yavin to fight for the rebellion elsewhere and to keep
Cassian on Yavin. Yeah, and later that day, rebel engineers

(47:43):
reprogrammed the salvaged k extroid. Okay, this episode has a
lot of politics, A lot of politicking, Yeah, a lot
of capital senate stuff.

Speaker 1 (47:54):
I want to read a little bit from mon mathmaus
speech here. Sure, what I think is kind of the
the nut of it here, I believe we are in
a crisis. The distance between what is said and what
is known to be true has become an abyss. Of
all the things at risk, the loss of an objective
reality is perhaps the most dangerous. The death of truth
is the ultimate victory of evil. When truth leaves us,

(48:15):
when we let it slip away, when it is ripped
from our hands, we become vulnerable to the appetite of
whatever monster screams the loudest.

Speaker 2 (48:23):
Uh boy, it's a little orange mad bad. But hey,
the orange man is bad.

Speaker 1 (48:30):
It's not just orange. It's making a broader, more historical point.

Speaker 2 (48:33):
That totally. Yes.

Speaker 1 (48:35):
The reason all of this works by destroying any kind
of shared concept of reality, you can get people to
If you can get people to believe absurdities, you can
get them to commit atrocities. Right.

Speaker 2 (48:46):
I mean, this is what like the nazis understood as well.

Speaker 1 (48:50):
Yes, And I love that speech. I think it's really
one of one of my favorite bits of this is
that it continues to show the degree to which, as
in Nimic's manifesto, tiny spontaneous individual acts of rebellion are
constantly occurring and are a key part of the movement
even when they're not organized. Mathma only gets through her
speech and maybe only lives because a team of door

(49:12):
repair guys who do not appear to be anyone's secret
agents just fuck up purposefully at their job, like we
can't get in.

Speaker 2 (49:19):
I don't know, man, we.

Speaker 1 (49:20):
Can't get into the fucking thing, Like you're gonna.

Speaker 2 (49:22):
Have to wait.

Speaker 1 (49:22):
We're still working on this, and it's kind of inferred that,
like it's it's weaponized incompetence, right, and I really appreciate
that bit. We have a showdown with her and her
driver because she becomes aware before her speech that her driver,
who she's been taking in as a confidant in the
last couple episodes.

Speaker 2 (49:40):
Well, no, no, no, no, like her driver. She's known
her driver, Chlorus, has been like isb for like two seasons.

Speaker 1 (49:46):
This is a different driver, I think than first this.

Speaker 2 (49:50):
Is the same driver, because she's been talking.

Speaker 1 (49:51):
She's been talking to Chlorus a couple of times. She
makes a comment about that this one hurts.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
She's been talking to like Erskin, like, oh shit, yeah,
she's she she's been getting closer to like her senate Aid.
Corus has always been like a dipshit who they've kept
around because he's like kind of bad at his job.
He is bad at being an ISB, like like paid informant,
so they like keep him around even though they know
he's reporting to ISB.

Speaker 1 (50:14):
There's a little bit of an insinuation with him looking
at his gun and listening to her that maybe he's
rethinking things. But again, we never get the chance to
see that because Cassian just shin.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
I think he's like thinking about if he's going to
have like a rest or shoot.

Speaker 3 (50:26):
Yeah, that was my breed on it.

Speaker 1 (50:27):
I think he's making up his mind about what he's
gonna do. And I don't think we actually see that,
but I mean I think it's open to interpretation.

Speaker 2 (50:34):
Yeah, because Cassian domes his little bettles.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
And does not take chances like that, he does not
take chances.

Speaker 2 (50:42):
And also Cassian employs great tactics in asking man what
his name is first, to engage him in conversation, to
distract him enough to like totally surprise him. Yeah, very good.

Speaker 1 (50:53):
I also I like the one of the kind of
it's not stated directly, but like Lana, the Imperial deep
coverage within the ISB is the guy who put these
people there, particularly the incompetent ISB agent who Cassie and
first shoots the lady.

Speaker 2 (51:08):
The person who's infiltrated Man's team a Baile's team. Yeah,
Like the reason why Luthan knows that there's something wrong
with Baile's team is because the agent that has that
has infiltrated like Baile's network is one of Lonnie's agents.
So Lonnie was able to get word to Luthen that
there could be a problem with with Baile's extraction team

(51:29):
and that's what that's what helps helps get mont Yavin safely.

Speaker 1 (51:33):
Yeah, And it's just kind of more confirmation of the
value of Lonnie of yeah, having him there and how
he how much he was worth the sacrifice of Ando
Krieger and his rebels and season one.

Speaker 2 (51:44):
No Lonnie, Lonnie is MVP uh. Like a lot of
this episode is kind of showing how much Luthen's Accelerationist
project has kind of succeeded, like like how much he's
he's in somewhat set up Gorman, or at least like
fed the fire of Gorman slightly to create this political
crisis to further his like accelerationist goal of creating this
like big conflict, and like we see some of that

(52:07):
start to work out, even though Luthen himself is like
having a much harder time and the kind of the
house of cards he's built is starting to crumble and
he's probably not gonna be able to work with many
people for for very much longer.

Speaker 3 (52:19):
Yeah, And that's like, that's the other thing I want
to mention about this episode about the way Luthen operates
is that because the way Luthen operates is by fucking
not telling anyone anything and by manipulating people and by
spying on them, and by like having this whole network
of double agents and like people who doesn't like the
problem with operating like that, And this is the problem
that he's running into here is like mon Mathma does
not fucking trust him because the thing that she learned

(52:41):
when Luthen comes to.

Speaker 2 (52:41):
Tell her, like, hey, the you can't go with Bail's team.

Speaker 3 (52:44):
Yeah, bails team is.

Speaker 2 (52:45):
Going to kill you.

Speaker 3 (52:46):
She's like, you fucking this you've had my own aids
spying on me for two What the fuck? Yeah, Like
it's like like this this is like a persistent problem
with the like and you start to see this, have
have we surround have we seen Vell like not working
with him anymore? I think we have in these episodes.

Speaker 1 (53:05):
Uh Vell does not seem to be working with him anymore.
She's more or less completely gone in on the actual
like military part of the alliance vels on.

Speaker 3 (53:12):
Yeah then yeah, well and this and this is that
this is the thing about this is like you get
to watch every one walking away from Yah. You get
to watch everyone who Luthen had worked. Everyone walks away
with him because they're like this guy keeps being an asshole,
and he keeps hiding things with people, and he keeps
manipulating everyone, and it's like it's like he's doing and
this is this is like also this is a kind
of person also that you run into where it's like

(53:32):
they're doing really important work and also interpersonally they're impossible
to fucking work with and like like and you can
you can watch it even with this having like real
political gratifications. Yeah, where it's just like no, this guy
has been just like jerking our chain around and like
lying to us and manipulating us for so long that
all of the relationships that he needs are breaking down

(53:54):
and it's no longer a position where because he's the
guy with the money in the arms and the coordination,
everyone has to work with him. They now have a
choice to like go do literally anything else. And everyone
keeps walking away, and it like almost gets mon Mathma
killed because she's so pissed at him that he's been
like spy having her.

Speaker 2 (54:10):
Spye on, but it it also saves her, Like it's
it's it's it's a double It does seem distrust with Mon,
but it also is what.

Speaker 1 (54:20):
God, because it is it is him who gets Mom out.

Speaker 3 (54:25):
Yeah, and it's it's like it's just this like really messy.

Speaker 2 (54:27):
That's what makes them a good character is that he
is both like he understands who he is. He's like
fucked up and morally compromised and is obviously hashtag problematic,
but it's also completely necessary within the plot that they've created, Yeah,
and like somewhat defensible, and like he knows that he's
like fucked like he he says, like there's no Yavin
for me, I'm I'm not going to gav and I'm

(54:49):
never going to see the sunrise. Like that's not what
my role is. I have to be the asshole here.
And yeah it sucks. And we start to see like
his fake Luthen like gallery persona starting to collapse here too,
Like yeah, this whole episode, he's not in his like wag,
He's not in his like fancy clothes. He is like
insurgent Luthen like this this this rule that he's he's
cultivated these past few years is no longer needed and

(55:11):
it does have negative consequences. Yeah, man is not trusting
him in this moment where she kind of really has to,
Like mon thinks that Luthan might just be trying to
like protect himself, that Luthen might not actually care about
Mont's own safety. Cassie and is tired of always being
a tool for someone else and is dealing with trauma
and burnout and Erskine's just caught in the middle of
this hole, this this whole ship storm and yeah, this

(55:35):
is this is what makes it compelling.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, Yeah, it's just good character writing.

Speaker 2 (55:41):
We've all been bent by secrecy, is what he says.

Speaker 1 (55:44):
Yeah, and and by God he has. And there's there's
a couple of really good moments in this that I
don't want to skip over. There's the next year in
Next Year in Yavin moment between Mon Mathma and Bail Arghana,
which I saw someone on Twitter, uh decree to be
Zionist propaganda. I'm sorry, like that that is definitely based

(56:08):
on next Year in Jerusalem, a term that has been
in use for like way more than half of a millennia.
That is, has nothing to do with Zionism. You're just
being racist, I'm sorry. And it's a nice like it's
a I think, a nice nod to the travails of
like what we are seeing is like a diaspora, right,
as people have to flee their homes to participate in

(56:28):
the rebellion.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Right.

Speaker 1 (56:29):
I think it's an appropriate kind of callback to real
world history there and the line where I think that
moment between her and Bail works really effectively and the
thing that he's doing works really effectively.

Speaker 2 (56:42):
This interaction between her and Bail also shows like the
difference between how Bail operates Luther and operates because like
Mon asks Bail if he trust his people, like like
if he trusts his extraction team, and he says like
of course, yeah, but he but but he has to
admit that he doesn't actually know them personally for quote
unquote safety, and like this is this is where it
shows like the difference someone like Bail, who's maybe less

(57:05):
manipulative than Luthen, maybe a little bit less morally compromised
than Luthen, but also in in moments like this, like
the in specific moments like this comes up a little
bit short compared to Luthen's uh, like you know, semi
semi like destructive and like bridge burning tactics, which would
which she which he openly describes as bridge burning. I

(57:26):
think I think this episode like, are are there any
bridges you haven't burned yet? Well, we're gonna deal with
that soon.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Yeah, we will be dealing with that soon. I would
like to call out mon Mathma's face acting and both
the scenes were Cassie and just immediately domes some motherfuckers,
Jack my god.

Speaker 2 (57:45):
Incredible stuff.

Speaker 1 (57:47):
She's she's known intellectually and it's even hit her because
she had a friend of hers killed right a former lover.
She didn't order it, but it was done, and she
knew it was happening, so she's not she had to
cope with it totally nai, but the rebellions, I would argue,
not fully real to her until she sees a man
shot through the brains.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
It's funny because she, like like minutes earlier, has a
line where she's like, like, hiding in this seen it
this whole time, will have been the hardest thing we've
ever done, and then it's immediately faced with the lethal
consequences for her actions. Yeah, it's like I don't know,
I don't know.

Speaker 1 (58:22):
It's much worse.

Speaker 3 (58:23):
Well, and it's also like its interesting too because it's
like the second person she's seen shot in this episode, right,
because like there's also like the first I s P
agent who they have shot. But it's like she doesn't
know the person she knows, right, No, it's just like
some cop and the known Chlorus for years.

Speaker 1 (58:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (58:40):
Yeah, and she's just watched her just like ye nope
and and the way and just yeah no dead media. Yeah,
and she's like, oh shit, would have I gotten myself
into Lutan's strongest soldiers killed two undercover is s B
this episode?

Speaker 2 (58:53):
Give them a hand, folks, Yeah, No, this is this
is a really a really a really sleek as I
do like that that like Bail's like Infiltrator, has like
a real isb look to her face. As soon as
I saw that actress, I'm like, that one has got
to be the undercover.

Speaker 3 (59:11):
Is b right?

Speaker 1 (59:12):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, she just got that.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Fabulous That ib jaw very good.

Speaker 1 (59:19):
There's one thing I'd like to bring up at the
end of these episodes that's kind of a callback to
the very first episode of the show. Is the first
time we see our boy cyreal, he's just convinced that
something is and people I've seen people point out Zerios
actually really good at his job. He points this out that,
like I solved a murder in two days, right, he
figured out who who had killed these officers very quickly.

(59:40):
And one of my favorite little undercutting of serial points
is that his boss solves it even faster, like in
that first conversation, because his boss is an older guy,
he's a corporate cop. He clearly has been doing whatever
he's been doing since probably before the Clone Wars, right,
He's been nearer the end of his career than the beginning.
And he doesn't like the empire, right, He's not even

(01:00:01):
that much of a law and order guy. He's more
of a get through the day and do my fucking
job guy. When Cyril brings up Cassie and killing these cops,
he's like, yeah, man, they're at a brothel. I know
their salaries. They can't afford that. They were shaking people down.
They shake the wrong guy down and they got killed.
Best to ignore it. You don't want the empire over here.
And every aspect of Cyril's life would have been better

(01:00:24):
if he'd listened to this guy who I'm sure spins
the rest of the empire, sitting on like barely notices
the end of things. You know, he's probably retired by then.
Just a shout out to the smartest, the smartest guy
in security services we meet over the course of these
entire series, that old dude at the desk who's like,
not worth it, not getting into it. Yeah, I wouldn't

(01:00:46):
ask anybody anything.

Speaker 2 (01:00:49):
Ah, Poor poor Cyril, what a little weasel Leah.

Speaker 1 (01:00:55):
And n he fucked up, he fucked up bad.

Speaker 2 (01:00:58):
I love I always love being in the Senate. She
does call the Gordon massacre genocide, performs the whole speech
very very solid, acting as usual. Genevievel Riley fantastic work
as Asma on this entire season.

Speaker 1 (01:01:13):
Everyone's great. God damn we shulll just talk a little
bit about Dedri's breakdown after the Gorman.

Speaker 2 (01:01:19):
Master Yeah in episode eighth, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (01:01:22):
Yeah, yeah, which also does fit into the whole who
are you thing where we see that she's not like
a complete sociopath, right, She's not absolutely devoid of horror
over what she's doing. She's just willing to accept the
horror in order to get what she wants out of life,
which I think is just like a much more realistic
portrayal of human evil than we tend to get.

Speaker 2 (01:01:44):
Yeah. She finds ways to cope and justify. Yeah, And
like you know, Lonnie is having to find ways to
cope and justify, but he's doing that through being a
double agent and feeding and feeding Luthen like very very
important intel as we see in this episode and the
next let's see. Yeah, I think this is this is
most of what I what I had on on on thisisode.

(01:02:04):
Oh yeah, I mean Bix Bix bricks up with Cassian
to force Cassie to stay in the in the Alliance,
even though he's probably not gonna be working with Luthan again.
I'll have more to say about BIS next week.

Speaker 1 (01:02:15):
I guess, yeah, yeah, I mean I have a lot
to say about this, but I think we'll wait until
last episode to fully discuss BIX. I think that's probably best.

Speaker 2 (01:02:26):
Yeah, yep. But but this, this batch specifically, I think
is some is some real solid, real solid sows. Wow
Star Wars.

Speaker 1 (01:02:37):
The stars have never been more Wars. Garrison, the Stars
have never been more wars. Can all agree on that.

Speaker 3 (01:02:46):
It could happen?

Speaker 2 (01:02:46):
Here is a production of cool Zone Media. For more
podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool Zonemedia
dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

Speaker 3 (01:02:59):
Can now find sources for it could Happen here listed
directly in episode descriptions.

Speaker 2 (01:03:03):
Thanks for listening.