The Struggle for Abortion Rights in Mexico

We talk to Erika Yamada, a feminist and human rights activist in Mexico about the struggle for abortion rights and what we can learn from the Green Tide.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to Dick. It happened here, a show that is
currently taking place in the death abortion rights in the US.
And yeah, it's not good um with me to talk
about this is Sharne, Is Sophie, Is Garrison, and is
Robert Evans And okay, so what one of one of

(00:28):
the things that's been happening in the immediate wake of
of the Supreme Court decision that has destroyed Review Wade
is there's been a lot of discussion about the abortion
rights movement in Mexico. And by discussion, I mean in
sort of classical American fashion, people saw exactly one meme
and reposted it and that's now the sum of like
all American knowledge about the abortion struggle in Mexico. So

(00:52):
to try to get a deeper understanding of what's been
going on in Mexico and how the struggle for abortion
was one there we're talking into Erica Yamada, who's a
feminist and human rights activist born and raised in Mexico. Erica,
thank you so much for joining us. Yeah, thank you,
thank you so much. Chris sharing so Figarrison, and Robert.

(01:13):
I'm so honored and excited to be here and very
grateful to be considered to share about the struggle for
abortion rights in Mexico. So before starting this discussion, I
would like to share a little bit about myself and
the organization I work in to have some background about
the experiences and data I will be communicating in this space.

(01:39):
UM I have been involved in many agendas for girls
and women's rights for approximately eight years now. I am
currently part of the Woman Delivered twenty class and I
also work in the non governmental organization Gender Quality, Citizenship,
Work and Family that has over twenty five years of

(02:01):
experience working for sexual and reproductive rights in Mexico, particularly
for the access to legal and safe abortion. Our organization
promotes and advocate for the sexual and reproductive health and
right of use through that they said that they set

(02:23):
is the network for sexual and reproductive rights in Mexico
that has presence in tolve states and we focus mainly
on marginalized communities. We support children, use women, and advocate
for change at local, regional, and national level and their

(02:43):
access is contributing to the criminalize abortion, guarantee access to
health services, and generate a favorable public opinion about women's
right to decide. We are also part of the national
co Choice Alliance in Mexico and effort of bi organizations,

(03:07):
General Equality, the Population Council EPAS Central America, Catholics for
the Right to Decide and heat it, each with different
expertise regarding abortion. Together we have worked on comprehensive strategies
that include the legal, the social, religious, ethical and investigation

(03:32):
aspects of abortion and well. I would like to start
up like sharing some of the context and the legal
situation of abortion in Mexico if it's okay or or
in our country, Voluntary abortion UH during the twelve weeks

(03:56):
of pregnancy is legalized only in certain states. Mexico City,
the capital, was the only state in the whole country
that they criminalized abortion in two thousand seven. Twelve years later,
in two thousand nineteen, the state of of Wahaca became
the second state twenty shure access to this health service. Afterwards,

(04:23):
two thousand twenty one was historic. It was a very
very historic year. It was UH for states Evalue Vera,
Cruz Bacca, California and Polyma also the criminalized abortion. Then
this year two thousand twenty two, three other states have

(04:45):
been added to this list, Sinaloa, Guerrero and California. This
means nine out of thirty two states have the criminalized abortion.
In the other aids of the Mexican Republic, abortion is
only allowed under certain grounds established by the law of

(05:08):
each entity. For example, if it was this contaneous abortion,
if the pregnancy was due to non consensual insemination, if
the woman's life is in danger of death, if the
product pass serious genetic alterations, if the pregnancy causes health effects,

(05:31):
among other reasons. It depends on each Plano code of
each state. And I also must add that pregnancy due
to rate is the only indication that permits legal abortion
in all states. And now coming back to what Chris

(05:52):
said that there was like a mean I think, uh,
you refer to the name of the public protest. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
the black clad female protesters attacking is it. I couldn't tell.
I don't recall if it's a city hall or a
police station or something. I have also seen some of

(06:15):
these media reports that that they say that we achieve
legal abortion thanks to these verdical public demonstrations, and well,
it is undeniable that among the most significant achievements is
the grow mobilization of feminists and women to eradicate violence

(06:37):
and land justice Mexico. Mexico has demonstrated the world the
revolutionary progress with the mass feminist protests and this image
is from two thousand nineteen. It was a huge feminist
protest that are condemned violence against women, especially sexual and

(06:58):
feminist side violence, police brutality, and the in tunity that
premiers the governmental system. We received a lot of international
media attention and it has been one of the like
the recent highlights of the feminist movement in our country.

(07:19):
But like the struggle for abortion entails so much more.
And yes it did have some influence. For example, in
two thousand twenty, feminists in two states, Quintana and Puebla,
took their local congresses and demanded the discussion of abortion initiatives,

(07:41):
and they have put this agenda on the table. It
is worth mentioning that the struggle for abortion that it
goes back so many years. Feminists have been fighting for
reproductive rights, including the access to legal abortion for that.

(08:02):
It's now the progress regarding this struggle has unfolded historically
during these recent years. For many other reasons. One thing
I want to go back to a little bit to
talk about is you were talking about the protests being
pro abortion protests but also talking about antifemicide and anti

(08:25):
violent stuff. And I was wondering if you could talk
about the antifemicide it campaigns too, because that's been a
really big part of this that gets basically no coverage
in the US. Well, in Mexico, eleven women are murdered
every day. We have a huge femicide problem that has

(08:47):
been silenced by the government, even by the president who
minimizes this horrible situation. So in two thousand nineteen there
was uh uh emblematic case where police officers m rape

(09:07):
and tortured a girl and that's how this protest UH
started And since all the two thousand nineteen, like most
feminist protests, have been regarding the violence against women. But UH,

(09:30):
I would also like to add about the struggle for abortion.
I think that in the global cells, the mari the
green type it played like the most fundamental roles. UH.
This movement, which came from Argentina, is one of the

(09:51):
main successes that strengthened the struggle for abortion rights and
even the feminist movement in Mexico. It expanded in many
countries including Mexico. Here we have a national Green Tide
and many local Green type books in all of our states,

(10:11):
and these collectives have played a large role demanding social
and legal decriminalization of abortion across the country. And there
is also an increase of networks that provides self managed
abortion information and accompaniment services, which have contributed to fighting

(10:35):
the stigma that still surrounds abortion. And the Green Tide
and the feminist movement, it's it has become like how
do you say it's been merged? Merge and like feminist
movements and the Green Tide fight for legal and safe abortion,
but also to radicate the violence against girls and women. Yeah,

(11:00):
that makes that makes sense. And about the Green Tide,
I have two questions about the Green Tide. One is
what kinds of tactics have Green Tide groups been doing?
And also how how linked have the international movement has been?
Like how how close how closely have these organizations been

(11:22):
communicating across and working together across the different countries? Okay, uh,
Since the Green Tide came from Argentina like the most
how do you say that the communication comes from regional
countries in Latin America and Mexico has been learning from

(11:45):
those Latin American countries the experiences we have seen the
feminist movements the protests also more in the South and
the the green handkerchief has this very very powerful symbol
of legal and safe abortion, and this have also contributed

(12:08):
to the social beciminalization of abortion. And wearing the green
handkerchiefs and in the protest also means demanding this health service.
And one of our tactics is of course pressuring the

(12:29):
government in Mexico. Political will, primarily from the left leaning
ruling party, has been fundamental for for the becmmunalization. With
the new government that I write in two thousand eighteen
headed by Andreo, we have more allies and progressive legislators.

(12:56):
So due to the majority uh that this political party
has in many local converses, the feminists of each state
have been able to pressure and work with these legislators
and keep pushing this agenda. That's awesome. I think something

(13:19):
that I'm still stuck on is that at the very
least all the states agree that abortion is okay if
it happened from from rape. Is that what you said earlier, Like,
that's the one we we have a federal lot. It's
the zero forty six met official Mexican norm that states

(13:41):
that abortion is legal if the pregnancy is due to rape,
and all the states, all the public officials have this
obligation to to ensure that this that this happens. But sometimes, um,
like we we have so many prejudices that sometimes even

(14:05):
doctors don't respect the law. But by not it should
be legal. And it's not that they all agree it's
the it's thee Yeah, it's just so, I mean, it's
definitely has its flaws and people with their own biases.
But like here, usually the rapists will have more rights

(14:26):
and protection than the person that got raped. Like there
are the family is allowed to sue the person that
got an abortion for example. It's it's insane, but so
for then here, a lot of it, a lot of
the biggest tree comes from like Christianity and religion. Is
it the same, like is that the baseline for the
opposition there too, Yes, because Mexico is a predominantly Catholic country,

(14:52):
and abortion and sales many controversies due to the different
positions that accome from this religious stands its stances that
ignore and deny the access to this service and deny
it's a human rights issue, and religious anti rights groups

(15:13):
or how how do you say? Anti choice groups have
a powerful presence and are actively hindering law proposals regarding
this topic. The prejudices and stigma are present even amongst
healthcare providers and sometimes uh the religious people. They pressure

(15:36):
these healthcare providers, the legislators. For example, every time there
is a line on local congress there are so many
religious groups outside the congress. They are how do you say,
like bothering the legislators. They even get their personal numbers,

(15:59):
and they are harassing them. Yes, harassing is the word.
They're harassing them. So yes, they have a lot of power,
a lot of money, and these effects even the states
where abortion is legal, because as I said before, sometimes

(16:22):
doctors denied even if it's requested under the legal indication.
So yes, it's a problem. I'm curious what you see

(16:45):
as kind of the value of the street actions that
were carried out as opposed to um kind of the
the actual organization on the legislative side of things, Like
what what degree do you think both contributed to, you know,
the successes that you all have seen. I think both

(17:06):
were very very important to the recent successes. The public
demonstrations help the feminist movements strengthened like it is like yes,
this recent protests have been the what do you say?

(17:29):
It has been where the most women have gone out
to the streets, taken the streets. And it has helped
because the government has responded to some of our request.
But also it is extremely important too to talk about
the organization. And also, Uh, something I didn't mention and

(17:55):
that I would like to emphasize is that in two
thousand twenty one, the the Supreme Court of Justice in
Mexico ruled favorably in four abortion related cases. And this
provided us with with progressive jurisprudence and legal interpretations in
favor of recognizing an increasing abortion right. So this has

(18:22):
how do you say, this has served our movement and
all the argumentation to push the decommunalizations. And well, about
the four cases. In the first case, the Supreme Court
declared that limitations to access legal abortion after it must

(18:46):
be removed. In the second case, it declared that the
absolute communalization of abortion with consent is unconstitutional. Uh. And
in the third case is it declared that the protection

(19:06):
of life from the moment of conception is unconstitutional. And
in the fourth case, the court ruled that legislative reforms
broadening the boundaries of conscientitions objection in the federal health
law are unconstitutional. And the Supreme Court is the highest

(19:30):
court of justice in Mexico and all judges should respect
what they established. And well, unfortunately it doesn't happen in
all states. And but it is like the most important
president we we have right now, and it is fundamental

(19:52):
for our argumentation in local congresses. Have has the national
government anything at all to try to force the states
who are like not following the rulings too, like except
the rulings. No, because our president, uh he he is

(20:15):
very neutral in this topic, and he has spoken against
feminist movements and key thinks that any protest means like uh,
conservators against his liberal government. So now we we don't

(20:35):
have this this support from the national government, although assignmenttioned before,
we have a lot of allies and in Mariny instances
that have helped to pressure state state public officials too

(20:56):
to respect the law and to keep pushing this agenda.
Is the president I'm just curious, I'm ignorant that is
the president? Like, well, how is he received by the
general public, Like, what's people's like? Is he neutral? Because
he needs a coward because there was one of the

(21:16):
rockety votes. But what are what's the response for the public? Ah?
He he still has a lot of support from from
the majority. He he is one of the the first,
how the same progressive presidents. Although we have been very

(21:41):
disappointed by many of his actions, for instance the increase
of militarization and the communalization of feminists, of human rights
activists of jourmanities. However, it is the first time in
so many years a president talks about for indigenous people

(22:05):
that sends support to rural communities. So he still has
a lot of support. HM. One thing that I don't
know how much. I don't know how much you want
to get into it. But UM we talked to some people,

(22:26):
Oh god, I don't remember how many months ago now,
but we talked to some people a while back who
were UM doing trans rights organizing in Mexico, and they
were talking a lot about how UM that they were
talking about how I guess like anti choice conservative groups

(22:49):
have been using UM have been using sort of organized
transphobic groups as a way to sort of differt attention
away from the abortion struggle, in the femicide struggle into
stuff that doesn't like challenge the status quo. And yeah,
and I was wondering you just wanted to talk about
that a little bit. Yes, thank you so much for
talking about this transphobia and in the feminist movements is horrible.

(23:19):
Like the Transforbaic feminists have been getting to conservative public officials,
they have been approaching religious groups, and they have even
affected the abortion agenda because some of our laws include

(23:40):
people with the capacity to get pregnant. So these health
services include ah, transpant and non binary people. But this
Transforbaic feminists have been how do you say, obstaculizing? Is

(24:01):
this struggle because of these prejudices, and it is very
very sad. And some of are some of the main
and most famous reference references in feminism have been citing
this transphobic side. And yes, they are approaching to the

(24:25):
ultra right, and they they have been hindering not only
trans people's rights, but now women's rights. In Gentlemary, Yeah,
I think was it. I'm trying to remember off top
of my head. I think that there was there was
a picture that was going around that was some of
the organizers from one of the like transphobic feminist collectives

(24:48):
I like taking pictures with sleeping held around. Yeah, I
think I think it was sleeping held around. Yeah, but
I don't know. I haven't seen that. But there was
a forums some weeks ago. It was a forum in

(25:10):
the National Autonomous University of Mexico, and it was a
feminist on discussion and most of the familists were so
so famous in all Latin America started to say some
transphobic points. So, yes, this anti rights movement is very

(25:34):
present and in feminism. Yeah, I guess the other thing
on that point that I was wondering is how have
like pro trans feminists been sort of fighting back against
these people. Has that been happening a lot? Uh, Well,
we're trying, but it has been very, very difficult because

(25:56):
literally there are transphobic people everywhere everywhere, I mean government
and non governmental organizations and institutions, and the majority of
the people are not all these says uh socially conscious

(26:16):
about about trans right. So transport with people who have
so much more power, but uh, sometimes we we denounce
it in social media. We reported to two international organizations

(26:39):
and like we have all the human rights narrative and
argumentation in our favor, but it is difficult because there
are so many trans transports everywhere. Um. We have also
contacted international organizations to to publicly say that, for example,

(27:03):
if you want to access a certain grant, you have
to have an inclusive position. What other ways, uh? We
like the trans movement has strengthened so much since two
thousand nineteen because in Mexico City, UM uh, the a

(27:28):
lot to to recognize trans children and adolescents was pushed
for the for the first time, like via the administrative way.
So there has been how do you say, a commission

(27:48):
of of trans organizations collectives. So I think that is
the the most noteworthy progress. Yeah, I guess there. There's

(28:13):
been a lot of people like looking to the green
Tide and looking to U sort of the broader Latin
American feminist movement for sort of inspiration and also for
sort of tactical advice. And I was wondering what, like,
what advice would you give people in the US who
are coming into this fight now, and where would you
send people to learn more stuff about it? Mm hmm.

(28:36):
Some some key points I consider relevant is firstly the
visibility of the pro choice agenda and the social ecommunization
of abortion when we talk about Lettle abortion, we we
have to emphasize a lot also on the social be communization.

(28:59):
It is very important to work on strategies to to
reduce statema and demonstrate that abortion is a common reproductive
event that must be approached using gender perspective and the
human rights framework. We we encourage public dissemination of the legal,

(29:25):
medical and social information with with hard sustained data from
international organizations that position abortion as a as a human
right and an essential health service. And related to this
first point, the narrative and argumentation, we have to focus

(29:51):
um the access to say from legal abortion as a
human rights issue, which means it's a governmental obligation to
ensure access to this service. On our case Mexico as
nationally and international commitments regarding growths and women's rights. And
I'm pretty share the United States also has this commitments,

(30:15):
so it's their obligation if the government's obligation too to
ensure and also regarding their narrative, we have to work
on naturalizing abortion and encourage people to stop using this
word as a prime Abortion is a human right and

(30:39):
it is a reproductive event in the life of women
and people with a capacity to get pregnant, and it's
a reproductive event that has always existed and will always exist,
either naturally or induced. And some of the organ listations

(31:00):
that I know of here that that can provide information
are the Poor Choice Alliance, organizations, Catholics for the Right
to Decide. They can give the religious and ethical arguments,
um my organization Gender Quality. We have the social argumentations.

(31:24):
We we are company and work with with the girls
and women. We we are in twelve states and we
are in the mobilizations. We are in the state on
the local congress is also heated. Heated in Spanish is beautiful.

(31:45):
The informer. They have all the legal expertise UH and
they work this reforms and loss to the criminalized abortion.
We have EPAS. EPAS it's an international organization and they

(32:05):
are medical experts and they provide all types of data
and information regarding this part and the Population Council. They
are the experts on monitoring and investigation and they have

(32:26):
many research papers and well there are also like other
pages that that can give information for example about UH
these their self induced abortion. The Health Organization has a protocol,

(32:48):
it's a public protocol for for self induced abortion and
it is completely safe to do it at home. Well,
I really appreciate all the information. Uh yeah, thank you
so much. Yeah, thank you so much. I think it's

(33:08):
really helpful to hear, um what other countries have done
in the same struggle. It's like so similar but different
and the say at the same time, because we've dealt
with the same similar things like turfs and religious like
opposition and everything. So it's really helpful I think to
see to realize, like, first of all, it is a

(33:29):
basic human right, like it it's not even it's like
internationally an issue. And then just to see how other
people have organized is really important, I think, yes, And
now I believe that we have like kind of a
similar situation whether well, it's a situation of legal discrimination

(33:52):
in which any women who live or have the resources
to travel to the states that have been criminalized abortion
can exercise the right who a voluntary legal interruption of
their pregnancy? Am I right? Because I, like I don't
know much about the situation in the United States, but

(34:15):
I know that it is legal in some states, right, yeah, yeah,
in some states. And then like in contrast to that,
it's like illegal even in case of rape, and like
the people that have been raped can be suited. It's
like a very like up and down kind of balance. Um.

(34:37):
But yeah, there's definitely both that exists, and I think
that's where it becomes really hard to extinguish the bad side. Yes,
part part of for struggle to be criminalized abortion in
the other states is because woman who who live in
poverty and marginalized conditions, who want to have an abortion

(34:58):
but reside in other states where it's illegal, kind of
do so under legal circumstances. So it's um also a
class problem. It's yeah, it's a and also in Mexico
there are some states that even criminalize us spontaneous abortion.

(35:20):
It wasn't even induced and instead of calling an ambuments,
some people called the cups when when a woman is
dying because of a spontaneous abortion, so es and this
has caused also a public health problem affecting girls and

(35:46):
women in more vulnerable situations who live in the in
the most restrictive context gurl and indigenous communities, also migrants,
girls and women, victimslves of sexual abuse, women with disabilities,
among others, and always, always, always the most vulnerable vulnerable

(36:13):
women are more susceptible to get an unsafe contesting abortions,
which can get to long infections, camorrhaging, u injury too,
to internal organs and even that there are some places,

(36:34):
like in communities where there is not even access to
to internet or or through basic health services and m H,
girls and women are still dying beto to unsafe abortions
and they are like a hundred percent preventable death. Yeah, yeah,

(37:00):
thank you, you're even amazing. Um, but it's interesting because
that's true. I think regardless of the country, the most
vulnerable are the most affected. Whether it's I mean it's
a class issue, it's a race issue, it's a disability issue,
it's like all these things that I mean, rich people
will get abortions either way, like privileged people will always

(37:20):
have a route to take care of themselves. Um. So
it's just I don't know, it's unfortunate for seeing how
like humans have functioned regardless of the country that they build. Yes,
sad and criminalizing abortion does not reduce its butts they

(37:41):
think that prohibiting it or like and it's practice, and
it only increases the probabilities of decent safe procedures, and
it increases the stigma and prejudices and lative in strength.
This empty rights and choice troops. But when abortion is

(38:05):
performed in a in a safe and important matter, it
is even less risky uh than childbirth among other interventions.
And US for example, it is much safer for for
our goal to have an abortion than to what do
you say, than to continue with with when the pregnancy

(38:30):
is like threatening her life? Yes, ye, yes, Um, well
that's why we have to keep fighting for people. I
was really getting down there. Yes, and here in Mexico,
like bills continue to be promoted in different states, we
keep forming and strengthening alliances, and we have to strengthen

(38:56):
these alliances with all types of sectors. Um. That's why
the the alliance work, for example, because we there are
the religious sectors that we work also with legislators, with doctors,
health care providers, even in schools, and with the public general.

(39:18):
So uh it is a collective effort and the collective commitment.
Mm hmm yeah, very true. I have nothing to add.
That's a good better than that. Um. So thank you
so much for joining us, and I'm going to step

(39:40):
away now. Thank you asually of course. Yeah, and I
guess uh, one last thing, well do you do you
have anything else you want to say, and then be
I where can people find you on the internet, like
if they want to? And do you have other organizations
and stuff do you want to promote? H. I'm like

(40:01):
Erica Yamada. You know my social media and the organization
I work in, it's e GIVA, the Gando Silvavania trava
for I from Gilia. But the National Network for Reproductive
Rights where we are in Trove States, it's called DATA

(40:22):
said I like, it's B B, E, S E R.
And you can find those uh and most of those
states and we can provide information regarding abortion if you
write to us. And also something I would like to

(40:43):
say is that even after it's even nice, we must
continue to to ensure that these abortion services are are
you say, our implemented, and that they can reach to
all girls, and that it must be guaranteed in paper
and in practice. And yes, the emphasis in reaching the

(41:11):
most underserved and vulnerable populations. Mm hmm all right, well, uh,
I think that's probably going to do it for us today. Erica,
thank you so much for talking. It's a wealth of information.
It's really valuable. Thank you, thank you, yeah, and thank

(41:32):
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(41:53):
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