The Union Makes Us Strong, Part 2

In part 2 of our interview with John Hieronymus, we discuss how to organize a union, the power of collective action, and the importance of anti-racism and feminism in the union movement.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
UM George flit uprising. You know, UH in Minneapolis, there
were nurses union nurses who walked out the door UM
to support UH. You know, people who were uh basically
having an insurrection against like police violence in in Minneapolis

(00:27):
when the when COVID pandemic hit off, year of everything
going off, nurses and nurses were going out and confronting UH.
Union nurses were going out and confronting anti mass protesters.
Like I was literally getting screamed out by like some
Looney Tunes doctor holding a banner that said nurses are dying.

(00:47):
Go home with like twenty other union nurses. And we
were the only people out there who are like together,
who are you know, immediately impacted by this stuff? And UM,
And I think it made a difference, Like I think
it's important and so I think that UM. And there's
some idea called social unionism. So if you get to
the point where building a union and you're making progress,

(01:09):
and you get to that point where you have a union,
always be advocating for to the extent that you can
that your union is engaged in the kind of UM,
like connecting with your community around your workplace, figuring out
the things that are impacting people's lives outside of unions,
because I think that's another thing that um for a

(01:29):
long time, unions just ignored or let atrophy because they
didn't think it was their problem anymore. Was you know,
mutual aid helped build the labor movement. You know, workers
would get would literally like in West Virginia and Maitwan,
Uh they had uh company police throwing people out of

(01:50):
their apartments who are on strike, and the there were
you know, all of a sudden, two thousand of your
fellow workers showing up and throwing the police out of
own and putting people's uh, you know, belongings back in
their house or you know. And I believe we're getting
back to that point where you know, teachers went on
striking West Virginia and the union and the teachers did

(02:13):
everything they could to support their students while they were out,
because like I think there's this idea that a lot
of union workers at this point are you know, everyone
is like, you know, the American workforce is so desperate
and so and they've had just been pushed around so

(02:34):
much that you know, there was this idea for a
time like in Wisconsin was or what was the Scott
Walker consint uprising, wasn't it. I think it was like
right around occupy It wasn't around there, And like there
was this idea that's like, oh, you're a nurse, Oh
you're a teacher, Like you should just be happy that

(02:54):
your job has some kind of meaning to it, right,
And it was a lot of like weird discourse around
in the media and about like how dare these people?
I think that they deserve anything. And the thing is
is that how can you, like, as a nurse, how
can I take care of my patients safely when I'm

(03:17):
constantly having, um like, more and more work put on me, right,
and that that immediately affects the people that I'm taken
care of. So that when when we went on strike
in twenty nineteen, it was around our safe staffing. Um
and if I've seen management make decisions about staffing that
kill people, and I've seen management make decisions that lead

(03:41):
to my coworkers getting injured. Um I management made decisions
that led to me getting COVID and messed me up
for a year. And so when people in these kind
of care worker roles, which I think has become a
more prominent part of the US economy as people are
getting older and they need more like care work, home

(04:03):
care workers, nursing home workers, hospital workers. UM. Parents don't
can't rely on family the way they used to to
help take care kids. School has become like this really important,
like uh institution for you know, working class survival. UM
that you can't do those jobs as a worker if

(04:24):
you don't have the resources. So like our our children
were at the Chicago public schools and there that you know,
the Chicago Teachers Union, which was taken over by the
rank and file UM, I think in two thousand five
or six by you know, a group of black women
led by Karen Lewis. They set up a group called

(04:47):
like a rank and file caucus called the Caucus of
Rank and File Educators or Radical Educators. CORES might be
messing on that, but it's called CORE. They went out
on striking and as a you know, as just this
was before my kids were old not to be in
those schools. I was out there still taking them coffee

(05:09):
and donuts, right because I knew that they're in there.
Because things stuck. By the time my kids were old
enough in nineteen for it to be a big thing,
and the teachers when out striking Chicago. It had gotten
so it's so bad that Chicago teachers like Chicago Public
schools have the the lowest number of staff two students

(05:32):
of any school system in Illinois. It's not even like
half right and um, And it's funny because the state
had been constantly trying to erode the power of the union.
They're making Chicago teachers like pay their for their own
retirement basically in a way that no other like workers
have to. Um. They were making it so that Chicago

(05:55):
teachers could only go on strike. Over of the teachers
voted to go on strike. UM. So when So what
that does is there's kind of like a a little
bit of a flip where oh, we have to make
of you know, people agree to go on strike. Well,
let's organize so much that we get people to agree

(06:17):
to go on strike, and then how powerful is our
strikes our strikes going to be. We're literally like one
of the things I do as a steward is I
connect with all the different unions and at the University
Chicago where I work, through a labor council, we were going,
as you know, university workers to all the picket lines
of the public schools around our neighborhood and we're bringing

(06:40):
out coffee, bring out donuts, talking to people. Hey, I'm
a nurse. We were on strike like six or like
two or three months ago. What do you all need
connecting with people? And then and then like at one
point when the teachers were like, we're not getting what
we want and this is LORI lightfoot is trash the area. UH,

(07:01):
we helped organize this mass march where multiple marches of
teachers and school workers and we're all out in the
streets dodging cop cars until we have this big convergence.
And it was really beautiful. Like we had like multiple
people with like multiple banners and different columns, each one
saying we will win, going through the streets of our neighborhood.

(07:22):
UM and like messing up like the commercial traffic area
in uh, in our very bougie neighborhood. UM. But that
was happening all over the city. And it's just like
when you see that happen, it's because we're literally in
the support of the community for those strikes was so
overwhelming because people knew that. It's like these people, aren't it.

(07:44):
I mean, like, first off, it's a hard job there's
no reason why anyone doing that job shouldn't have like
a materially comfortable life. That's how stressful it is and
how much work they do. Um and I really like,
I really need to emphasize this enough. People. There's this
whole thing was like, oh, teachers don't work over the summer, Like, oh,
but no, no, Like their job sucks. They have to

(08:06):
they have to deal with these kids all day. And
the other thing is like, you know, the part of
it that you don't see is they have to do
all a lesson plans, They have to great all the stuff,
have to do all this stuff like after the school
day end, they have to do all the suff honestly
all the time. This job is awful. It is extremely hard,
and like they don't Yeah, the conditions are extremely bad.
I'll never forget when I'll never forget when I ran

(08:28):
into my seventh grade science teacher on the summer she
was waiting tables at a local restaurant, you know, I mean,
And so I think that there's this assumption that like
that especially care workers get some sort of you can't
you know, you can't cash in fulfillment, right or prestige
or whatever that doesn't pay the rent, that doesn't put
you know, groceries on your table um that sort of thing.

(08:51):
And so, you know, I think we're beginning to see
this thing resurgence. And it started with teachers and I
know for and teachers and nurses have been out fighting
like hell for the past like five years, and it's
beginning to kind of like spark other kinds of organizing
outside of outside of the care work areas. And a

(09:14):
lot of this stuff was It's funny how it was
kind of like predicted by occupy and like revolt of
the carrying classes. Someone who wrote a really cool book
that just came out, David Graeber, who was talking about
like why is it that we're seeing all these people
who are out in the streets like during occupy, who
are like social workers and nurses and teachers and all
this stuff. There There's something going on here, and I

(09:37):
think that so you'll see places where organizing conditions are
easier because the pressure on especially care workers right now
is immense in a way that it isn't as immense
other places. But look at for those like when you're
thinking about unions and whether to do build a union
at your workplace or do some sort of collective organized

(10:00):
in your workplace? Do you have the dynamics where you
guys are can the boss shut down your uh, your
your workplace and move it like ten miles without completely
destroying their like their business right? And so you know,
we've seen strikes happen in grocery stores, um and uh

(10:23):
Massachusetts there was a really like uh pretty well publicized
grocery worker strike and apparently there was like internal documents
got released to like shareholders about how that was like
one of the most like it was like for a
month in the winter or three weeks, and they said
they lost like of customers refused across the picket line.

(10:45):
I mean, and I think we're thinking it's like getting
to the point where you can go on strike. It's
a lot, it's a process, and it takes a lot
of work, and I think that people underestimate what that
looks like. Hence we see hashtag general strike things all
the time. Um, but like when you get there, I
think that we're at a point now where people have
a lot more sympathy for workers, and workers have become

(11:08):
more visible in a way that they weren't before, Like
the essential workers over the past year and a half
have been the only workers that sometimes people will see, right,
so you'll see things also like you have you know,
Amazonians United, which is a union that's organizing, but they're
trying to organize something called a solidarity union. So they're

(11:29):
not you know, at least the ones here in Chicago,
and I think some of them in New York. And
this may be changing. Things are always shifting around, but
for a long for a while, through like the pandemic,
they were organizing on a like in contrast to the
best Summer uh Amazon campaign. Sorry, there was a a
business union tried to organize a union in Alabama, Investment

(11:53):
Alabama at an Amazon warehouse, and there was a lot
of like media attention to that. Democratic politicians, we're paying
attention to it, you know, Joe Biden said, I support
the right of workers to choose to have the choice.
Stabby union some really milk tast bullshit and a lot
of celebrities showing up. And what wasn't happening was you

(12:17):
weren't seeing a lot of evidence that the workers themselves
were very excited about the union. And it turned out
that that campaign failed. UM whereas workers at Amazonian's united
up here like in Chicago, and granted it's a very
different organizing environment in Illinois than it is in Alabama. Um,
they haven't been focusing on getting contract. They've been focusing

(12:39):
on getting work changes. Like they're like, we want to
have water, like we need water breaks, and so they
would they have these stand up meetings at the beginning
of every shift, and they had coordinated where you have,
you know, thirty of your coworkers all say we're not
starting until we get water, and then management panics because

(13:00):
they're not used to that kind of demand. They're used
to We're going to have a campaign then we can
you know, mess with votes and that sort of thing
and make people afraid. Collective action overcomes fear, right, So
when you have collective action, even through a regular like
a more regular conventional union campaign, those collective actions are

(13:23):
what leads to successful unions. So like, um, so, you know,
they'd say, we aren't starting the shift until we get water,
and then all of a sudden, a manager disappears and
then comes back with palates full of water, right, and
all of a sudden, people are like, I'm gonna have
a drink water before I start like all together and
then they go off and do their thing, and it's like,
you know, things like that build the power of the

(13:45):
union to the point where they shut down that warehouse.
But then Amazonian United popped up in the three new
warehouses that they set up in Chicago. So it's like
when you build that kind of collective power and people
feel like this is how you get things, then it's
hard to repress. Right. It's one thing where like we

(14:07):
lost an election, why did we even bother? It's another
thing where like, no, we want like all this, like this, that,
and the other thing like we got you know, like
our regular schedules fixed, we got like water on our shifts.
We got this. You know. That's what gets people into
the mindset that they can change things. And I think
this is the thing that a lot of people don't get.
It's it's like, the difficult part isn't getting people to

(14:28):
agree that things are sucked up at your workplace. Most
people understand that things are sucked up in their workplace.
Difficult part isn't saying that, like, well, this is a solution, right.
The difficult part is getting people to understand that collective
action is the only way to solve the problems right
even within unionized workplaces, getting your coworkers to understand that

(14:48):
if we don't do this as a collective, we will fail.
And so like when there was a like the first
successful private hospital union drive in North Carolina popped off early. UM.
Throughout that campaign, they were constantly like demonstrations of collective power.

(15:14):
We're gonna do a vigil. How many people are gonna
show up to the visual We're gonna all walk around
stickers saying like safe staffing, safe lives or like you know, UM,
patients over profits. That sort of stuff and building that
kind of collective power together is what gets you, UM,
It's what gets you a successful like, that's what builds

(15:35):
a union. Fundamentally, union is UM. There's the legal thing
and then there's the real thing, and the real thing
is only as powerful as people are willing to fight
for and build that kind of collective power together. When
nurses were on straight and I talked a lot about
nurses because I know a lot about nurses, but like
you know, or like you know in um in Iowa,
when the John Deere strike happened, people were out on

(15:59):
those picket lines and people were ready to get hit
by cars to like stop scabs from coming like crossing
the picket line. And if you're not willing to do
that kind of stuff. And I'm not saying that you
need to put your body on the line for things,
but you do need to be willing to draw outside
the lines. Right, there's the law, and then there's what
you can get people to do. And you will be
surprised when people start moving. They move fast and they

(16:21):
get really riled up like this, funk, this, this is
what we're gonna do. And sometimes unions try and like
bottle that energy up um or you know, if you're
in a good union, you use that energy to fix things.
So I think that's kind of where land on all
this stuff. It's like be aware of like the pitfalls

(16:43):
of what organizing at work means. Everyone has a right
to organize at work everywhere in this country. If you
get fired for like for organizing, you can fight that
that sort of thing. Yeah, it is, it's federally protected,
like it's this is this is a federal government thing.
Like you know, this is this is this is what
we got in exchange for everything else is like like
this is you know, like this this is what we

(17:04):
got in exchange of putting our guns down, is that like, yeah,
the the the actual FEDS will be like, no, you
can't do this. Yeah, I mean, and sometimes that doesn't
sound like fold consolation and it doesn't always work. But
and I guess this is the other thing is there
are people who are like, this is how we're gonna,

(17:26):
you know, we're gonna when socialism as everyone's in the union.
And I guess, like my take on it is is
this is how we build all the networks and get
the skills and all the necessary things to be prepared
to do bigger stuff down the road. So when we
when workers are talking to each other across like you know,

(17:47):
at when the Chicago when Chicago teachers went on strike,
they didn't just go on strike as the teachers. They
also talked to the They lined up their strike to
go out at the same as education like the school
workers who are in sc you and they went out
at the same time, um in order to incre improve
the power of the strike, because the more workers who

(18:08):
are out, less able the bosses are to like like
to undermine the boss either with people scabbing on each
other or whatever. And I think it's just like and
like that's the point of our labor council is Like
when like the grad workers at Universe Chicago go on strike,
we got teachers out or we got well, there were
teachers from CTU out on those picket lines. There were

(18:30):
nurses and a new on those picket lines, and we
were doing everything we could to communicate to each other
because like in my work, it doesn't matter that I'm
a nurse and you're a secretary. We have the same boss,
we have the same problems a lot of the times.
And so I think people people want to do the thing,

(18:50):
which is to all have the glorious general strike that
like overthrows capitalism or whatever or fixes all the problems
at your work. But you know, starting everyone forgets all
the necessary intermediate steps to get to that point. And
sometimes it means just get the union in the door
in the first place, because like at a campaign I
was a part of here in Chicago where my University

(19:12):
Chicago bought a non union hospital that was out in
the community. Just getting in there, they were able to
expose like basically an entire hospital wide scheme of like
racial racist like practices around raises and compensation and that
is like that first step and then fixing that right
because you don't want to have like white worse nurses

(19:34):
making more than black nurses and black percent more than
like did immigrant nurses like Filipino or like Mexican nurses.
Get everyone on the same page so that you're fighting
together instead of fighting each other. And you know, those
are those first steps that you take. And then and
then you start reaching out to people on other other
workplaces or other work areas and build that kind of

(19:59):
militant see across unions so that you can support each other.
So maybe a secondary strike is illegal right now, but
that doesn't mean that you don't have you know, teamsters
who won't cross the picket line, right you know, how
do you go out and make it or you can
build that solidarity so that like in Buffalo and the UM,
the c w A nurses went on strike and they

(20:22):
want pretty impressive things around staffing ratios. They literally had
other unions going out and picketing board members of their
hospitals businesses and like getting really really like aggressive with
that sort of stuff. So I think that I think
that people need to just big takeaway is it's the

(20:43):
biggest barrier to any of this stuff is just getting
people to believe that collective action is possible and they
can get you wins, and then making sure that you
take your time and be patient and understand that there's
going to be losses in the grand scheme of things.
Don't don't don't mistake what looks like a setback when

(21:08):
it's actually a victory for like a victory, like for
a real like a defeat and um, and talk with
people like that's what they hate that, Like, bosses hate
it when we're talking with each other and talk to
people you're not comfortable with. That's the That's the other
thing is that people are very nervous to talk to people.
Like it's always funny when you run into people who
are ra ra like unions, ra ra like socialism, YadA YadA, YadA,

(21:31):
and they don't talk to their co workers, right, and
your coworkers are the people you're gonna be around for
maybe some years, and that's where you spend a huge
chunk of your time and like, but you don't know
what's going on, they're like, Oh, they're all hostile. They
don't want to know anything, they don't want to do anything.
Funny thing is is that oftentimes the most people who
seem very skeptical and anti union can be flipped, and

(21:53):
sometimes those people become the best, like the most dedicated
people to the union. It also means that you're going
to talk to people who disagree with Like there was
a Trump dude who was on like the bargaining committee
for like our last strike. He fucking loved that thing.
He was like, we're going on strike, but you know,
it's also a union full of black women, and he
shut the funk up when you know, it wasn't like,
you know, being racist and ship, but you know you're

(22:15):
gonna be with those people. And part of the thing
is is that it's about how we're all moving together
rather than making sure everyone is on the same page
for every single thing, because the biggest thing is the
collective action and building that collective power, and hopefully the
collective power is hopefully the collective power outweighs. It's if

(22:36):
you stand firm on principles like anti racism and fighting
against discrimination and misogyny that sort of thing, it actually
builds the power of the union. I think that's the
other things that people are like, oh, I don't you know,
like you know, working class people are all racist or
reactionary or whatever. So I'm going to do that And
that's how I'm gonna get That's my inn. And it's like,

(22:56):
I think there are a lot of people who like,
they really don't like you. They don't like being around loud,
racist assholes or people who you know, say slurs, like
especially if it's like I mean, you can make the
arguments like this is that's their way of dividing us.
Our goal is to be together. And historically speaking, the
one thing that's done the most too fight working class

(23:19):
racism is union organizing. Ye. So, and I think also,
like you know, in terms of like building something that's
actually you know, durable and powerful on top of sort
of just the division. I mean, you know, even when
it becomes stuff like transphobia, right, it's like, you know,
if if you can convince people to fight like first,

(23:43):
like fight for the person next to them, right, you know,
I mean this is this is the thing that people
like said a lot during the Dween the Brainy campaign.
But it was like, you know, if people like, yeah,
like if you can get someone to uh fight like
fight for the person next to you in a concrete
way in the work in a way that's actually real
for something that doesn't directly affect them. You think, you

(24:05):
know a A, it's just like the amount of power
that you've built there is incredible. And then be also, Okay,
I forgot where I was going with that, Daniel, please
cut that. Hold on, hold on, I can kind of
build off. Let me just say this, My personal experience
is that queer women run the labor movement and that

(24:26):
like and that if you think that people who have
been bullied from the day they like stepped into like
a into a kindergarten aren't going to be the people
who are most equipped to fight bullshit, bullying from a
boss or injustice or bullshit you're fucking like, like, just
get the funk out because you haven't been in a

(24:48):
union and you don't know what you know. I mean,
you like the like people. Unions are at their best
when they incorporate, you know, all, like when they are
fighting for everybody, because what a boss can get away
with with the weakest person, that's what they'll do to
all of us if they get the chance. And so
I think that there's this idea that's like, oh, we're

(25:10):
going to set we're not going to we're going to
ignore this or that sort of thing. It's like, you know,
that's when people like, you know, people will turn away
from unions as they feel like they're not being listened
to or taken seriously. And you don't know what people's
like identities are just because you see how they look.
And so I think that it's real important for us
to understand that if we're going to fight these fights,

(25:32):
we need to do so with the understanding that it's everybody,
and that the working class is a giant, multi racial
conglomeration of every identity in this country. Um, and that
the more marginal your identity is, the more useful having
a union is to like solving your problems. Like I said,
like racist racist compensation practices, there was no way that

(25:56):
was going to get fixed, Like it wasn't even uncovered.
People didn't understand it was happening in till like the
union got in. Doesn't mean there are other ways to
fix things, but it's one of the one of the
most powerful ways to fix things. I think that people

(26:16):
just like don't understand because they don't have experience. Because
they don't have an experience, they end up with they
end up with misconceptions about what they're going to get
into and then they get disappointed. And I think the reality,
I mean, I think that the reality is not as
bad as sometimes it seems. But also you gotta go
into all this ship with open eyes. Yeah, And I

(26:38):
think that there's and that's the other thing one of
the fun things. Maybe this will make it to the podcast.
I don't know, but um, one of the fun things
is always like hanging out with like if you like
every workplace has like its lefties just about and like
hanging out with the lefties who just can't get their
brains wrapped around the ship that you need to have

(26:59):
a union. I think that there's like this idea that's like, oh,
I'm gonna talk to my friend. They're like they're like
they say they're a communists, so that the and then
then all those people do not always but they're don't.
They're sitting there, it's like talking a bunch of shit
about like the union. They're a bunch of sellouts is
or that, and it's like literally it's the only thing
you're gonna do to get your like to fix the problem.

(27:19):
And you're just like, we're just trying to get this
problem fixed. Can we just set aside what you think
needs to happen like that you guys talked about it.
You're like Spartacus leak meeting or whatever, like, oh, this
isn't a real strike, Like we're not going out until
like for like you know, three months. And it's like,
you know, it's like the sort of thing where um
sometimes or oftentimes, and I think it's because a lot

(27:42):
of people kind of pick up their politics almost like
an aesthetic as opposed to like a thing that like
is about like fixing the problems in their lives. And
sometimes even I'm like, you know, like this is the
problem that I face is like like shit is real,
like a lot of people, and you can sit there
and talk about this or that, and like you're you know,

(28:05):
you think that things. You know, you've got this perfect
ideal vision of what things should be, and then you've
got this kind of imperfect thing in front of you
that is, even though it's imperfect, it's basically what you've got.
And so it's like you've got to kind of you've
got to work with what you have and fix it
up and make it the best that you think it
can be um, but also understand because it's an organization

(28:26):
full of people that it's not going to be perfect
every time. And yeah, maybe your union is going to
do some liberal ship you know, and you're gonna and
that's going to annoy you. But you know, like, um,
those people are still going to show up on the
picket line if you're like, if you're organized and you're
good and like, you know, that's it's not the end
of the world that your union isn't perfect, um, but

(28:49):
you've got to do everything you can to do your
best to make it better because if you don't, then
then liberals will do whatever they're gonna do or conservatives
will do whatever they're gonna do, and then they will
like furtter away this thing. Like you can destroy a
union if you aren't engaged. Like a union can be
destroyed by people who think that you know, they're just

(29:09):
like I just want to get my rays and like
go home, and like, you know, if people's main concern
is like their healthcare or like you know, that hour
of prep time before they start their shift or whatever
should you know, start their school day or whatever. Um,
you know, a union can like dissolve out from underneath
you and people are like, why is no one showing
up to this thing? It's because you didn't talk to

(29:31):
people and find out what it is. I think that's
the other thing is like listen, Like there's this idea
that you're gonna get up and give a big speech
and get everyone really excited about your about like being
in a union. But the main thing is listening to
people and listening to people who are critics. You know,
your coworkers who have complaints aren't like people that you
should ignore. Those are people who need to listen to
because those are people who they've got I mean, everyone's

(29:53):
got legitimate problems with how you know work is happening.
And like just because someone's like, you know, union is
you know trash, Like then find out why they think
it's trash and then try and be like I want
to try and fix out what can we do to
fix it together? That sort of thing. I remember when
when I was working, So I worked at like maintenance

(30:14):
and a county facility for a while, and you know,
so I was like a like I was like I
was like a summer higher basically, and so we we
weren't in the union, but like everyone we were working
for was in the union, and they all like, you know,
these are old ex construction worker guys and you know,
like they're in the union. But like I remember that

(30:35):
we show these conversations that were like, okay, so we
have a union meeting this week, just like do you
want to be the person who tries to talk about
raising wages? And it was like everyone was just like no.
And you know, people, you know, like these guys are
like very right wing and they were just sort of
like piste off all the time. But it was interesting
because the thing they were piste off all the time
about was that, like, you know, their union didn't do

(30:56):
anything like the union like they they they're they they
they they they were. They were basically constantly annoyed that
like the union didn't like the the the union wasn't
fighting for pay raises, uson wasn't sort of fighting. And
I think that was, you know, an example of how
this stuff sort of just fails if if people aren't
like if people don't feel like they can actually do

(31:17):
something like itself. I mean, and they call it service unionism.
There's this idea that like um or like like that
a business union's job is to kind of serve you
and you kind of like they do all the work.
Like one of the complaints that some people who are
not big fans of our union and our hospital is

(31:37):
that like, oh, well, other other unions have lawyers negotiate
the contract for you. And when we negotiate, we have
a room full of nurses who are doing the who
are doing the negotiations, and the goal is to have
it be as transparent as possible. And like the idea
that you're going to hand over negotiate sations to a

(32:00):
lawyer and somehow get a better deal than than a
room full of of the actual workers. And it's funny
because we have our bargaining team and then like will
periodically do something called open bargaining because it's the thing
that bosses hate. It's like they want to make a
deal like with a door shut right, um, But there's
no reason why a union has to do that. Like,

(32:23):
you can invite whoever you want to your bargaining. You
can invite community members to your bargaining if you feel
like you're man it could because management behind closed doors
will say all kinds of things, and you know they'll
they'll trash talk everyone involved and they'll you know, and
they will make absurd demands about you know, it's like, oh,
you're all gonna take a pay cut you know on

(32:44):
this contract, that sort of thing, and they hate it.
They absolutely hate it when like workers actually show up
to these things. And so, um, I think that understanding that, Like,
I think there's this idea that like some people are
big on like we have to be kind of like

(33:05):
secretive to like get the best deal, and like we
shouldn't be like we shouldn't be transparent with everyone about
what's going on because that's how like because then they'll
figure out some way to counter us. But in my experience,
my understanding is that the more transparent your union is,
the more involved people get, and the more able people are,

(33:29):
the more willing people are to put their time and
energy into it. Because that's what comes down to, is
like people out to like everyone's working and busy and
their life life is hard and sucks, and so like
do you have time to dedicate to show up to
like talk to like if you why would you go
to a union meeting if when you raise the concern
like we want higher wages and like the union like

(33:50):
staffer doesn't care if you get higher wages, because they're
like while we're getting our union dudes, and like what
what then do we care? Right, that's like huge problem.
And the part of the thing is that those problems
don't get solved if they if they exist, because they
that definitely exists in some mu and a lot of unions,
more unions than uh than not um if the workers

(34:12):
don't get organized together. Like we just saw an election
within the Teamsters International where uh the halfa uh Jimmy
Haffa Jr. One of the half a kids was like
president of the union and was this like not doing

(34:33):
a great job and um, and like there was a
ranking file like push to get that guy uh unelected,
you know, and put it replaced with a rank and
file worker who wants to put actual time and resources
into organizing. You know. Like there's nothing sadder than a
than like watching a union campaign failed because the union

(34:55):
clearly is phoning it in, Like that's happened. I've seen
it happen, not inside my union, but in other unions
and uh and I mean like at my workplace, there's
several unions and I've seen I've seen a failed campaign
and it's like obvious, like there's you know, I'm not
I don't co sign everything that someone like Jay mccavalary.

(35:15):
I think that's altay share McCay bleary has to say.
She wrote like no shortcuts. Um, I don't sign off
on everything she has to say, but she has some
really insightful things. It's like if you're not organizing to win,
like you'll fail, and like you have to take this
so seriously. And that's where like I'll say that, like,
if you've got a choice between I'm gonna put time
into a political political campaign versus a union campaign, You're

(35:39):
going to get way more bang for your buck. You're
gonna get so much more experience. You're gonna get like
a durable organization that's going to be around for years
if you put that time into a union campaign. Because like,
imagine winning an election, right, um, except the politician you're
running against is the incumbent, and they can um basically

(36:01):
drag every one of their constituents into like a meeting
and tell them how awful you are all the time,
and lie and say whatever they want, and then they can,
you know, do all kinds of tricks to like basically
dismantle your campaign. So I guess, like the thing that
I would say is that like if you if you
do it the right way and you actually win one

(36:21):
of those campaigns, you're going to come out way ahead
and sort of understanding, like you have to talk to people,
you have to be super organized, you have to know
what people's issues are in their different targeting units. UM.
You have to find people like part of like it's
successful campaigns. I've been part of literally going on a
search to go find like the people that need to

(36:42):
be like signing cards and stuff. And you just have
to be a very good listener, ready to talk and
listen and hear what people have to say. Um, and
then turn that um information into knowledge, knowledge and power
um and UM. I think that, uh, if you pull
it off, you have done something substantially harder than say

(37:05):
like winning a school board election or something like that.
I mean, it's it's it really is. It's like taking
like those kind of skills that you would use to
like win some sort of small municipal election, and it's
like exponentially more hard because the rules are just so
tilted against you winning. So if you are serious about it,

(37:25):
if you're serious about changing the world, if you can't
like someone. Yeah, I think Murray Bucksen once said, if
you can't run for dog catcher, you probably shouldn't be
talking about revolution, you know, But I think that probably
more you know, more appropriate to be, Like, if you
can't win a union election, you probably shouldn't be talking
about revolution because even if you want to do all

(37:47):
the things, you need to have the ability, the skills,
the ability to mediate conflict, getting everyone on board, to
do the collective action that like you would need to
do to successfully kind of like carry out like you know,
it's one thing to have the grand insurrection, it's the
other thing to carry it forward and keep hering it
to the point where you're over the line you've completely

(38:08):
changed the world, right, So, and I think that and
so I just think that like UM and I think
that's similar things go with like you know, tenant organizing,
community organizing. There's various types of organizing that use those
similar skills that you get in like a union campaign, UM.
And it's just a very different type of UM politics

(38:30):
and organization and skills that you would get from you know,
showing up for your local justice dem and you know,
like knocking on the doors of strangers, you'll never you
may never speak to you again. You know, when you're
talking with your coworkers, those your coworkers are going to
be there until you're you know, you retire or you're
fired or you quit. So anyway, that's I guess that's

(38:52):
another good takeaway I think from all this. So one
thing I wanted to make sure to get to is,
so I think there's a lot of people who are
listening to this who working out non union workplaces and
want to try to start this, and I wanted to
know what would be your recommendations for them, you know, how,

(39:13):
how how do you start this process? What does this
look like? In what kinds of conversations should you be
having with your coworkers? Yeah, for sure. So, um, I
think one of the first things that I think a
lot of people, a lot of people don't understand is
that there's an amount of risk and stuff too organizing,

(39:35):
and that you're like, first off, like you should be
chill and like not like running around telling everyone you
want a union because that's a great way to lose
your job. Um. I think the thing is is that
you build relationships and find out what's happening, like just
like you know, take from your experience and figure out
what's like in uh, like, man, it really sucks, like

(39:58):
I got like I got screwed o here on my
vacation requests, or like I you know, man, are raises
were really shitty this year And I heard like you know,
boss talking about like how much like like they've made
so much money that sort of thing. Um. So I
think that it comes down to you have to be

(40:18):
It's kind of like a combination of like like an
investigative reporter and like someone who is just really good
at like talking to people and just kind of like
understanding what's making them tick and understanding also that maybe
you're not the person who's going to get everyone on board,
but that finding other people who every Like I think

(40:40):
the big thing is like who's like the most respected
person on like in your work area that sort of thing,
who like they know that the unit or they know
the work area, they've been there the longest, they have
like the most experience. People look up to them. There
are the people who train other people that sort of thing.
Those are the people who everyone looks too. When it
comes down to these sorts of things, and you know,

(41:03):
just you don't have to be friends with everybody, but
like doing it's I think it's really good to just,
like two, be open to listening to everybody that you
work with and finding out what it is that's really
going on. Yes, I've noticed like in a lot of
places that I've worked, like the bosses often don't really

(41:25):
know what's going on either, like they and I think
that that that's something they can give you. If you
understand how the process works and who's doing what and
what people like need, that gives you like a big
advantage over the bosses who just have no idea what's
going on, which I think, Yeah, I think it's very

(41:49):
it's very normal for bosses to really not know what's happening,
and there's always someone who does, like figuring out the
people who really know how things work are like those
are like the those are the people who, um, you
want to be talking with and figuring out like where
they kind of stand on things, and um, you know,

(42:13):
I think like the first step is like just having
good relationships and people trusting you and you know, you know,
if you know, Like, I don't think everyone needs to
be a superstar workers sort of thing to be a
good union organizer. But like they always say, it's like
people who have the most problems oftentimes are people that
are don't make great organizers because people don't see them

(42:34):
as people to follow. But um um, but I think
that it's important to just like talk with your to
like just figure out what's going on first. That's your
first step. Figure out what's going on? What are the
things I mean? And you can come around together in
you know, and like and how do you get people
outside of the workplace? So you talk like how do you,

(42:56):
like do you have like a group chat or signal
chat or like a what to app chat or Facebook group?
And where do you just like start kind of like
and you know, be very care be careful about who's involved,
and just kind of like low key to like start
talking with folks and identifying to people who, um, who
are outside of your work area, who know people Like
sometimes it's you know, you'll talk to people and they're like,

(43:17):
I don't want to talk about a union, but you'll
be like, do you know anyone who cares? Who who
has said anything about unions before? And so talking to
people to find out who they know, Like these are
all this kind of like crucial first steps to like organizing.
And I think the thing is is that, like there
have been times where you'll have a non union workplace

(43:39):
where if the people in a particular area of of
like a of like a hospital or like a workplace
or whatever, we'll do some collective thing that gets some
sort of results. So I think it's always like it's like,
let's get people to sign off on a petition about
like you know, like if of your coworkers are unhappy

(44:01):
with like races or something like that. Like the more
people that are involved in those first steps, the more
likely it is that it won't result in retaliation and
like you'll end up getting some sort of victory. Um.
So I guess like the thing that I would say
is just like be be ready for like people to

(44:23):
look at greet you with skepticism because like it's it's hard,
it's a hard thing to do, and always just be
finding out what is bothering people and then look at
little things that you can do to kind of like
flex power, like to like collectively flex your power. And um,
it can be as small as like everyone bringing up

(44:46):
the same issue at like a work meeting, right like
if you and it could be like, hey, let's talk
about this is this work meeting, this is and if
we all say something together like, we're going to be fine. Right. UM,
So like starting with those first steps, I think it's
the first like thing, Like the first thing is know
what's going on, build relationships, be a trustworthy person, Like

(45:08):
you can't be like the unit gossip or the the
work area gossip that like knows that's in everyone's business
or stirring up stuff and be successful at this UM.
But if you are, you know, if you're someone that
people like trust or look to or you know, like
a person that people are like they help solve our problems,
those are the people who I mean, you're going to

(45:28):
be well set to begin to kind of take the
steps on that and then you know as you kind
of build those kind of like build that organization step
by step. No, no union UM is going to invest
the time in a union campaign if it's just you
and like to other people like you need like you

(45:50):
need to get a room. They're always say like, well,
if you get a room full of people together, I'm
willing to talk to them. And that's kind of the thing.
And you know, zoom and stuff has actually made that
a little bit easier UM, which in some ways can
be a weakness because you end up with like it's
a lot less commitment to show up to a zoom
meeting that it is to UM to show up at
like a bar or a place after work UM or

(46:14):
a church or wherever it's like a good like like
neutral safe place that people feel like they can be
honest with each other about what's going on. UM. But
at the same time, just like being the more the
the more people you get on board with the thing,
the more likely that it will succeed. You'll attract support

(46:36):
from like an actual union that m is able to
help you if you decide that that's how you want
to do it, or if that makes sense in a
legal context. And so I just like always like start small,
figure out the small things, be willing to do like
collective action to get little small victories. And that's a
great way to get started, I think, and then like

(46:57):
really do like sleuthing and research, like figure about how
things actually work. UM. That's like, you know, that was
the problem with the best amerket campaign down in uh
down in Alabama with those Amazon workers is they didn't
know how many people worked at that facility, and then
all of a sudden they're like, oh, yeah, we're going
to include like an extra thousand people in this vote,

(47:19):
you know, like six weeks out, and you know, like
I don't want to I don't want to take a
dump on the people who did that. But like, if
you don't know that there's like another thousand people, or
you don't have like everyone on board, you're not going
to succeed. So no, everything you can as you're going
in and do everything you can to find out things
or make buddies with the friends, but our buddies of

(47:41):
the people who are gonna you know, know these things
and you know, and then support each other, like it
means showing up when like someone Sometimes what we do
during these campaigns is someone will will have the contact
for someone who's interested, and then your job is to
go and find that person where they work and talk

(48:01):
with them, and then talk with them while they talk
with their coworkers, or back up them while they're talking
to the co workers, because they trust their their coworkers,
trust their coworker. You know, you're a random stranger, you know,
And then like, don't be afraid to say I don't know,
but I will find out. Right, there's like this, there's
this pressure I think to like have all the answers
to like whatever people's questions are. And I think that

(48:22):
it's like, um, I think that it's like, I think
that it's important to be honest when you don't understand,
but then do the work of figuring out the answers
for people. Um. And I think people respect that. And
you know, a lot of people who are vocally against
these sorts of things up front, it's because they don't know.

(48:45):
And if you you know, you're like, no, we've got
a right to do this, or like, you know, the
the you know, a management will say things like managion,
it will say things like oh you will, um, you know,
the union will get in between our relationship with you know,
with you and us, right, And the point is is
that like, well, the union is us where the cod

(49:07):
where the people doing it? Like everyone running. You can't
run a union if you don't have a bunch of
people involved from the workplace. And it's like and making
sure that the people who are um, those people who
end up being kind of like spokespersons for everyone else
are people that folks trust and they have like a
good like grasp of what everyone wants and yeah, so yeah,

(49:29):
and then like you know, don't get bogged down in
the legal ship. Like you know, collective action really is
like your most powerful tool, um all the other kind
of like the grievances and that's some stuff. It's important
and you can't let it go. But it's also like
it's designed to kind of grind people down. So um,
you know, the more collective action you take, like the

(49:50):
more likely it is that you're going to be successful
and keep people engaged and excited. Yeah, going back to
what you were saying earlier, this might mind out being
last episode depending on where this breaksdown time wise, But yeah,

(50:13):
I think it's also it's just this is gonna take
time and a lot of work, And I think it's
it's it's important age to understand going in that this
is a long and difficult process. It's not gonna happen overnight,
and be that it's a lot of work, Like you
have to There's there's a lot of things that you

(50:33):
have to do. There's a lot of sort of logistics,
there's a lot of talking, there's a lot of like negotiating,
there's a lot of sort of. I mean just just
even I don't know, before anything gets off the ground,
you have to spend enormous amounts of time and effort
doing stuff and that's that's that's like it's just the
reality of it. So yeah, there's there's no there's there's

(50:54):
no there's there's there's there's no magic bullet like there's
no sort of yeah, there's there's no just like one
thing you can do that like magically makes it you
need appear. It's a bunch of people coming together and
like fighting for it for a long time. Yeah, I
think that that's like the main thing is like you're
it's it's a cliche that's like it's a marathon, not

(51:15):
as prints. Um. Sometimes I hate when people say that ship,
but it's true, like you you really do have like, um,
you're in it for the long haul, and a lot
of times it's like your people are ready to do
these things when they're like this is like I don't
want you know, it's one thing to pop up in

(51:35):
a place and be there for like you know, six months,
like I need a we need a union, right, No
one you know that works in that place, trust you,
they don't know who you are, Like they're not going
to follow you to do anything or you know, or
take your you know, follow your lead. Um, it's the
people who are like, I'm gonna be here, this is
my this is where I want to be, and you know,

(51:56):
this is a I want to be here for the
next few years, and think of it is like a
long term investment in the quality of your life and
the quality of life at your workplace, because to win,
you have to be sticking around, you know. And I
think that's where it gets tough with people who are
in like precarious types of employment or different types of

(52:20):
and that's where you have to start looking at alternate
ways to organize because maybe you're a precarious worker who
does maybe you drive, like for a right here service,
or maybe you like do delivery or like you know,
um for an app or whatever to delivery for an app.
And I think the thing is is like that sort
of thing because of how and you know, these aren't

(52:42):
like new forms of work. This is actually really old
forms of work that are just like been like rebranded
by tech bros who have decided like they're like they're
like they're great genius is like rebranding the kind of
like precarious work that was really like prominent like throughout
the nineteenth century. And it's like, so then what do
you do as you come up with ways to organize

(53:02):
people regardless of like oh, like I'm you know, I
work for this, like I work for lift or work
for Uber and it kind of switches back and forth.
Like the thing is, it's like that's when you start
talking with you know, rideshare drivers across different like apps
or whatever, and then you come up with a way
to work collectively um to to change sorts of things.

(53:24):
And sometimes that's it's gonna be it's gonna be tough,
you know. And that's when I kind of look at
those that sort of thing is like this is where
it's a learning experience and maybe I don't get everything
I want, but you know it's really important. I mean,
it's like building these networks that people who care about
like what they're working conditions are like, and you can
pull things off maybe unexpectedly that you didn't expect. We're

(53:46):
going to be like the thing, you know, like you
may start with something that looks like a union drive
and then you end up with something that looks like
very different it could you know, could go in all
sorts of different direction. So um, you know there and
look outside of the US, you know, their countries where
like in UM, I think that there have been some

(54:08):
pretty successful delivery app organ to organizing in London UM.
And you know, I think that to a certain extent,
like formal extent, US unions have not been very successful
in organizing those workers because it doesn't it's hard to

(54:30):
do from the extant business union model, and so it's
like it's one of those things where you know it
used to be, you know, they would have like you know,
the fight would be instead of trying to get like
workers are like a contract at a particular like work site,

(54:51):
you set up a hiring hall, like the i w
W would set up hiring halls UM and like you
know for lumberjacks and that sort of thing, and those
workers are always pre areas right, but they would go
trying set up so that like people would only take
jobs out of the hiring hall and that's how they
would control their like their work. And I think that
more unions needed. And part of this is like if

(55:14):
there's any union people out there who are in staff
and that sort of thing is like there needs to
be a serious re examination of how we do unions
in this country. And I think a lot of people
inside unions understand that, but no one has quite done
it yet in a way that's effective. And I think
that we really do need to kind of re evaluate
that sort of stuff. So just you know, as someone

(55:37):
who's going into like a new sort of organizing campaign,
just understand that like getting the union contract isn't necessarily
the end gold end goal is to try and get
your boss to do things differently so that you're not
like miserable at work. And that might look like a contract,
or it might look like you know, a a one
day like uh, you know, app strike or something like that.

(56:00):
You know, you'll you'll figure you've got to figure out
how it's gonna work. Like with you know, in healthcare,
you know, there's this idea that like, you know, there's
the gold standard of the strike where you strike until
we win and we're out for like you know, like
two or three months. Well, the problem is is that
there's an industry of scab nurses and healthcare workers where

(56:20):
at any point they can bring in people to replace
enough of you that a hospital can maintain operations. And
unless you're super organized like they were up in um Buffalo,
uh with c W A like, and have a big
network of people and you're ready to go to like
you know, board like picket board members houses and that
sort of stuff. Um, those long term strikes can end

(56:43):
in defeat where you end up with you know, you're
all replaced with scabs and and it sucks and it's happened,
and then you gotta I guess you gotta learn from it,
you know, like we've there was a famous strike in
Minnesota with healthcare workers and they went out and they
were out for months and months, and there are people
on you know, going to the super kitchen to feed

(57:04):
their kids and stuff, and they lost right. And so
my union tends to do one day strikes, but instead
of just being at one hospital, we organized multiple hospitals
across the country so that it soaks up all the
like scat drives up scabs and it really like that.
I think ideas like intermittent strikes were actually a really

(57:25):
powerful tool back when you know, back when it was
the c I oh and it was like we're going
to just stop working until he fixed this problem. UM,
and that's why they made them illegal and it takes
a lot of work to pull them off. But if
you can't pull them off, that could be an effective way.
And if you're not in a union, maybe getting people
down for a one day like work stoppage at your
work or even you know, maybe it's like we're not

(57:46):
starting our shift right. I've been in the room. I've
been in the room where it's like, no, we're not
going out to take that assignment until like we get
our staff situation set up like fixed. And you know,
sometimes it's just those collective actions are you know, it's
not the end, Like there's no end. I'll be all
one size fits all solution, just be ready to kind

(58:09):
of like explore what it means get all the resources
you can. There's groups like there's still like the Industrial
Workers the World, which has really good organizing trainings o
T one oh one and one oh two. I'll pitch
that as a member of as a also a dual
carding member of the i w w UM. But there's
also Labor notes UM and other groups like Essential Workers

(58:32):
Organizing Committee that's sort of things that like give you
good like rundowns on how to do the organizing work.
So just be careful, always be careful, be aware that
people are afraid. Bosses use fear um to scare you guys,
to scare everybody, and like, the the more people on
board with a thing, the less fear. Like it's amazing

(58:54):
when you're running up into a strike and you're really
firing on all cylinders and like everyone in your like
work areas we're getting together to take a picture, like
get ready to go on strike, and it's like literally,
i mean when we went on strike, when our hospital
went on strike, it was the first time where like
there was like nurses on one places the first time
when all of us were in one place ever. And

(59:16):
it's just massive like coming together thing experience. And it's
really hard to describe when you when because you know,
we're always griping at each other about this or that thing.
It's like, but when you're actually all out there together
on the same time, when you pull it off, it's
really amazing. Um, it's hard, it's it's hard to describe, um,
but when you do it, it's like it's like the

(59:38):
purest drug. And so've I've heard some people who are
union skeptical be like well, you just experienced like the
good ship and like what about all the defeats, Like, well,
get the little hits, get the little hits here and there,
and get yourself to the point where you can do
the big thing. You know, you're the whole thing is
like getting people to do the thing is like the
is it's like the perennial uh, you know, curse at

(01:00:02):
the left, can you do it? Or curse of you know,
like the organizer activist or you know, whatever you wanna
call it. You know, it's just but you know, if
you don't do anything, nothing happens. You can all sit
and complain and nothing changes. So you know the only
way to changes things is take those complaints and turn

(01:00:22):
them into collective action. Yeah, I think I think that's
that's that that that that that's that's a pretty good
positive note to end on. Just go do things. Go
do the thing now. Stop tweets, stop tweeting, stop tweeting
about it, Go do the thing. Um yeah, I think
that's I. Like, I guess one last thing because I

(01:00:44):
talked about social media and talk you know, I talked smack.
I like, I've been off Twitter for some months now,
is it really cleared my brain. But you know, um,
being on finding the social media space where your your
coworkers are at is really important and that might mean
setting up like a discord or you know, what's app
or a Facebook group. You can set up secret Facebook

(01:01:06):
groups that no one could see. And yeah, like like
Facebook will periodically shut them down. But like our hospital
has like a like a Facebook group with like two
thousand nurses and we and that's where we got really
amped up. And it was a way for us to
be talking with each other and talk each other through,
um the stress of setting up you know this thing.

(01:01:29):
And then also like you know, people workers can't organize
like like people will do organizing even if like they
don't have like that full support. So like some coworkers,
not coworkers, but members of my union went on strike
at Cook County this year, and the whole thing was
organized practically without like staff, right because the staff were

(01:01:51):
barred from being in meetings, like in person meetings because
of COVID and they couldn't go into the hospital because
of COVID. So people were very pissed about how things
have been going and they were talking to each other
and we organized that strike. They organized that strike on
their own practically, um. You know, it lined up. They

(01:02:12):
were off there. You know, they didn't have the no
strike clause like operating at the time, and um, and
they pulled off like a pretty like a significant victory
um from their one day strike and it really um
really you know, like got them some big wins. But
and they didn't they didn't need the union to do
it for them. You know, the union was kind of

(01:02:33):
like a facilitation tool rather than like the thing that
got it done. I think that's the other thing is
that there are people who think that like it's all
dependent on like having like this hero staffer sort of
thing situation, and at the end of the day, like
if it's not the workers doing it themselves, nothing's going
to happen. Yeah. Yeah, the power, the power is with

(01:02:55):
the working class itself, and if the working class doesn't
use it, nothing will ever happen. Yeah. But if it
does use it, I will trail off here. Sounds good. So, John,
is is there any place that you want people to
find things that you do? Like, Yeah, I used to

(01:03:16):
be on Twitter. Um periodically will show up on uh
varn vlog, which is uh see Derek Varnes m vlog
on YouTube. Um, there's I recommend people UH listen to.
There's a group of podcasts called the Emancipatient Network. I

(01:03:37):
really like their stuff specially UM. There's a what's it
called General Intellect Unit, which talks about like cybernetics and
the left. Um. They have a lot of particularly cool
stuff that's just come out recently about UM, about strategy
that I think is really important for everyone to understand. Um.

(01:03:57):
I was a founding member of the uh Libertarian Socialist
Caucus at d s A. But I'm no longer in
d s A. There's a but that group is still
kind of kicking around. We're coming up with new things. Uh.
Then then I guess like, Um, the University of Chicago
Labor Council is a group that I spend a lot
of time with. And there's also a tennants United High

(01:04:20):
Park with Loan, which is a tenant union that you
helped set up. And to hell. Yeah, so you know, UM,
go out there and you know, don't don't listen to
me or don't try and find follow me. Go like
you go figure it out and you're our neighborhood and yeah,
and set up a mill set up a million different

(01:04:41):
you know, like labor councils and worker committees and tenant
unions that yeah, like build build power. That's why I
think I sometimes we are afraid of the term power.
I think that power is that it's best when it's everybody.
And so I guess I might say it's like go
out there and build community and worker power are and um,

(01:05:01):
don't be afraid because fear is the one thing that
they've got to wave over our heads. And sometimes you
just got to take that jump and do the thing.
And uh and that's how we're hopefully going to win
one day, say in the world. Yep. And you can
do this just like all of these things, everything we've
been talking about for the past like two hours, these

(01:05:25):
were all just done by ordinary people. Like there's there's
there's it's all. It's all done my random people. And
you know that random person can be you. You just
have to go and do go to the thing. Yeah.
So yeah, this that this has been It could happen here.
You can find us on Twitter at happened here pod

(01:05:45):
and also on Instagram there and uh yeah there's other
cool zone stuff. Oh I guess yeah, there's there's there's
a new show called Megacorp that that we have that's
about how corporations are bad and the first season about Amazon.
It's out now. Okay, it just doesn't have a Twitter,
but yeah, it's it's called Megacorp and you can find

(01:06:07):
it wherever fine podcasts are distributed. Yes, okay, bye, It
could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media
or more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website
cool zone media dot com, or check us out on
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you

(01:06:28):
listen to podcasts. You can find sources for It could
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