June 8, 2023 • 33 mins
James is joined by Erick Meza to discuss the ecological and human damage done by the militarization of the US/ Mexico border.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hello, it's just me again. Today it's James.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm joined by Eric Mesa, who will introduce himself in
a second, and we're going to be discussing the environmental
and human impact of the border policies in the last
decade or thereabouts, and to include the border wall.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
So Eric, would you like to introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Thank you, James. Of course.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
My name is Eric Mesa. I you hear him pronounced,
and I am the Border of the Lands coordinator for Sierrah Club,
part of the Grand Canyon Chapter based out of tuson Arisona,
which is the on cedar land of the Tona Autumn
and Pasco Yaki people.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Many other tribes America. Holm thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, thank you very much for joining us. And it's
a fantastic introduction.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So, Eric, I think if we start out by just
explaining what the border wall kind of looks like in
the landscape and how it breaks in the landscape, because
although it's something that you and I might see almost
every day, for a lot of people, I think that
they kind of saw on the news three or four
years ago and then then you start reporting on it.
(01:10):
So can you explain like the physical kind of stature
and impact of the wall.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Yes, well, I think for each person it definitely takes
into it with the perspective that they might have. You know,
it definitely impacts people in a different way. But one
thing that you can like notice as soon as you
see it is how massive it is, how it just
divides these pristine, beautiful Sonoran desert lands and divides them
(01:41):
on half. So that already for us as on organization,
since the beginning and the conception of the idea of
start rolling all of these remote areas, start looking at
the environmental impact that social action can have. So it's
always really hard to see and just to imagine and
(02:01):
to think about all of the different things, not only people,
but all the different movement that used to happen in
these areas now as being completely interrupted.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I remember in twenty twenty, I was out on Kume
Island in a place called Campo filming a Kumi I
protest against the desecration of their sacred sites by the
Actually I was writing for this Yerra club and I
saw a deer that day, like and it just came
up to the wall, and it was like, what the
(02:32):
fuck do I do? Like this wasn't here last time
I came here, and.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
It was just this.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Really, I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Obviously the world those horrible, cruel things to people every day,
but I don't know why. It struck me at how
unnatural and unwelcome it was in that place, but it did.
So I think maybe if we could look at these
different The wall spans a huge area and stops randomly
throughout that area, so preps you could explain some of
(02:58):
the ecological impacts. Maybe if we still where you are
in Tucson, and then we move gradually west to where
I am at the western end of it, and would
that be a good sort of way to do that.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Well, here in Tucson, our closest border is Nogalles, and
once we started moving east or I'm sorry west from there,
the closest one right next to it's called Sassabi, And
as you mentioned Nogalles, there is big walls, and then
soon it stops because then the terrain gets very uneven.
(03:32):
There is a range of mountain called the Pahariito Mountains,
which is one of the most biodiverse areas here in
the Southwest, with some endemic species of plants and animals. Actually,
thankfully the wall stops there, and then there is certain
areas that there is a lot of unfinished projects, or
(03:53):
we also call them orphan walls, like sections of the
wall that never were completed, and then you stand there. Unfortunately,
to get them up there, there was a lot of impact.
For example, they use dynamite to blow up entire mountaintops
(04:14):
to get equipment up there, and some of the cases
without even constructing any wall at the end.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So it's really unfortunate because a lot of.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Debris that came out of these explosions right now, it's
causing a lot of erosion issues and it's like moving
into those canyons and covering a lot of the.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Vegetation that was there before.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Then as you keep coming passing through the Phariito Mountains,
then you get to the area called the Buenos Aires
National Refuge near the town of Sassab, and there is
a large segment of a wall there with twenty six gaps,
small gaps, big gaps, and all of these gaps have
been there since the beginning of the construction. CBP recently
(05:00):
announced that they're going to be closing some of these gaps.
They have been used by migrants a lot recently, but
in recent days actually the influx of migrants have definitely
declined a lot, different to what other people seen in
other parts of the country, but especially in this area
(05:23):
in Arizona, we didn't see the huge amounts of migrants
coming after Title forty two.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
So once you pass that section, then you get.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
To what's the Once you pass the Sasab Report of Entry,
then you enter the Tona Autumn Reservation. Ton Autumn decided
that they didn't want to wall there, and they fought
for it, and they didn't build a wall.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Enter is about.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
I'm not really sure about the number of miles. I
think there is about sixteen to twenty two miles of
just the land that only contains what's known as a.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Vehicle brier or normandy barriers.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
These are made out of like old train tracks, which
we really like environmentally speaking because it allows the movement
of the animals and the flow of the water as well.
And then once you pass the reservation, then you go
into Organ Pipe National Park, and then you start seeing
(06:25):
more wall sections on areas like Kito w Akito Springs
like a very important ceremonial site for the ton He
has shed autown people and a lot of.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Destruction on those areas.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Sacred sites as well, there are very cultural and important
for the Tono ten people, like Monument.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Hill, a burial site.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
That wall was built right on top of it, and
just keep moving and then you get to areas that
are more remote until you get to Yuma, and then
we have also Coco Pa Reservation there that there is
no wall. The wall exists just after the reservation and
(07:13):
there are some segments I believe that still have no
wall in there. Recently there was the action by the
state governor to put shipping containers there.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
They were removed recently to be replaced with the.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Regular bowler type of boat. The wall that you see
in other places. And yes, you keep coming past gal
Lexico and all those areas until you get to Kumie
Land and the Atai Mountains and all the way to
what's known as Friendship Park, which is a BI national
(07:50):
park located in the border between San Diego and Tijuana,
which is the last BI national parker the only one
that we have in the southern border. And now as
we speak, new thirty full walls are being built in
that area as well, so even so President Biden.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Said that he was not going to build more walls.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
We still see a new construction happening as we speak
right now.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, And we've had friends of Friendship Park on our
share before and I'm sure we will again because they
do very important work and it's a very important space
for so many families who are divided by the border.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So I think people, I guess when we talk about
ecological impact, people always like people like big animals, right,
So the charismatic megafauna, I guess that are impacted by this.
So maybe that's a good way to look at this.
I know that there are some jaguars jaguars, however you
(08:52):
want to say that that are impacted in it's my
very British penunciation. In Arizona, there is the bighorn sheep
of course, who are closer to me need to Cumba
where people will have heard the scripted series by the
time this comes out, so they'll be familiar with the Cumba.
Can you talk about the impact of the wall and
those sort of bigger animals.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
That has been our main focus as an environmental organization
since two thousand and five, when the real ID Waiver
came up, signed by George W. Bush as a response
to nine to eleven and the intention of security borders.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
The real ID Act waved every.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Single environmental law that we know, like, including the Endangered
Species Act, Clean Water Act, the lot that you can
imagine it's included. It's about forty or more of these laws.
We're completely waved in order to start building walls. We
(09:57):
noticed right away that the first walls are st coming up.
It was really easy for people to go over, under cut.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Through them, or go around them.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
But then we start noticing the animals were not able
to do that anymore. We're start seeing the impacts on
some of the species that are super important. You remember
the species of the desert. They need to cover large
amounts of territories to find the resources they need to survive.
We're talking about large migration routes that go from Mexico
(10:29):
into the United States, back and forth. And just to
mention some of the species that are considered in danger
in the area of California.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
We got the big corn chip.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Then you start coming and there's the Sonora and desert
pro corn into the Sero, the altar. Then we got jaguars,
in Arizona, we have also black bears. The thing that
makes this area so special here in Arizona is what
we have known as the Sky Islands, which is really
high altitude mountains that you can find. Some of the
(11:01):
species that come from the north, this is their southest
more territory, and some of the species from the south
this is the northest most territory. So species like jaguars
can all of a sudden be drinking water out of
the same pond with a black bear, and that is
very unusual and very rare and very amazing, you know.
(11:23):
So we also have ocelots, which is another type of
cat that lives here in Arizona. We also have the
Mexican gray wolf species there is in danger that use
these corridors back and forth, and unfortunately we haven't had
the opportunity to track properly a lot of these animals
(11:46):
to recognize their migration patterns, because a lot of these
animals cannot be put on a GPS.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Color for example.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
But what we have done is put a lot of
cameras on the wilderness and we're able to photograph jauars
on this side of the border and photograph the same
Jahwa a few years later in Mexico or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
So there is a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Of proof that all these animals have been using these
corridors for thousands of years. There is plenty of evidence
that the importance of these wildlife corridors in the Sonoran Desert.
And also we see, you know, like that with the
construction of the border wall, a lot of the species
that we used to see more often in the United
(12:32):
States we don't see as much anymore. Animals have a memory,
so when they come and all of a sudden cee
this is really large obstacle, they're less likely to come.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Back and try it again.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
And that can be an a racial thing that they
came past it two future generations.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
One thing that you mentioned that which I think is
something else which it stresses, Like you spoke about how
the jaguars and the pest can share the same pond.
But the wall and the roads, which we should mention
that too, right, Like people didn't just get helicoptered in
to build the wall. They had to first build roads
to get to the place where the border is to
build the wall. And can we talk about how those
(13:20):
have affected drainage and water sources along the border.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Absolutely. Yeah, water is life.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
So here in Arizona, for example, we have two rivers
that actually flow on north, the San Pedro River and
the Santa Cruz River. These are rivers for example, San
Pedro is born in Mexico and the Santa Cruz comes
in the United States, then goes down to Mexico and then.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Goes up again. And a lot of the drainage that
has been.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
One of the biggest issues that we have encounter because
the wall acts like a dam almost and in a
lot of places doesn't allow the water to flow as
it used to, and that is going to bring an
impact to all of the different species of animals but
also the plants that depend on this water to survive.
So when the construction of the border wall came, you
(14:15):
mentioned roads, and.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
The road right next or adjacent to the wall.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Now it's like a four or five line road in
some places, and it's been also increased the elevation. So
when you increase the elevation on these roads and do
not have the proper drainage on the areas that need
to be and then you're going to have water being
stuck on one side or the oider of the border
(14:43):
and not able to make it to the areas where
it used to flow normally. So we might not see
the consequences and the first year or the second year,
but we can start seeing consequences in a few years
from now. Several plants all of ausdden starting to die
because they didn't have the water that their habita used
to provide for them.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So that's why they grew there on the first place.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
So we might see a lot of changes on the
landscape in regards of the way that the water moved
on those places.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So another thing I want to address is like the
we talked about plants, right, and a number of cacti,
specifically like cacti that is sacred to tou Hona autumn
people have been either moved or destroyed in the in
the construction of the wall around organ pipe and like
just not on their reservation, but very much on their
(15:34):
unseated homelands, right Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, the sawado cactus, it is considered as a relative
for the ton autumn So you can just imagine the
sentiment of the ton autumn people by looking at the
sawados being chopped or bulldoze on these areas considered sacred
for them, So there was definitely a lot of that happened.
(16:00):
I mean, there is an airport, but we haven't seen
it yet. It's just on written right now that they're
going to revegitate some of these areas that got impacted.
We're still waiting for that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, And that stuff always comes like last and slowest
if it happens at all. And I know like both
the Kumii the Autumn, I'm sure other Atajoon Autumn, other
tribes have had their their ancestral burial grounds as you mentioned, destroyed,
and for a similar reason to the real Idea Act,
I think it was different. I think this was because
it was done in an executive order and it was
(16:33):
an emergency that they waived a lot of those Normally
they would have tribal nations would have the right to
sort of inspect and do a survey before digging that
I know in twenty twenty they were they weren't doing
that right.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
No, they didn't know, so they really The Act also
has a lot there to protects archaeological resources, so they
were able to do those things when there was if
it was on feederal land and it was indigenous sacred site.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, so another thing talking of federal land. That we
should probably mention is this concept of the Roosevelt Reservation
that people might not be familiar with. Can you explain
what that is to folks?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
The Roosevelt Reservation.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
It is the area the border about sixty feet away
from where the border line or division is, and that's
what's known as the Roosevelt Reservation.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
So that is an area that's right.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Now mostly managed by CBP border patron and.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
People can't it's like technically not it can't be private land,
right or the government can take it at any point.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And that's what they were using in the case of
the around Campo. That's what they We're doing. One thing
I think we've neglected to do. I guess I spent
half my life trying to do this. But I'll let
you take a swing at it, is like, can you
describe these desert landscapes and for people who are because
people think of the desert, right and they think of
(18:15):
Osita wells, like where people like to go drive their vehicles,
you know, and it looks like Saudi Arabia, But that's
not most of the desert. The desert is actually a
very live place and a place full of like life
that has struggled and made a way to exist there,
can you explain. And it's a very special place, not
(18:36):
just sort of because it's unique, but it has a
real sort of well yeah, it has a uniqueness that
you can't really feel anywhere else in the world.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
I guess yes, Thank you, James. I definitely agree with
you on that. As a person that I grew up
here and had this deep appreciation for the desert environment,
I think it's it is such a beautiful area, and
not only beautiful on the sense that it's the Sonoran Desert,
(19:06):
for example, is considered the most biodiverse desert.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
In the world.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
So yeah, so it's considered a desert because the amount
of water that we have, but the amount of species
it matches no other desert in the world. Here we
have the most species of plants, most species of animals,
and only for people like and people goes out there
sometimes on a hike on the desert and might not
see much of the wildlife there old than the birds,
(19:34):
and especially on areas where there is a little bit
of water. But you got to remember also that the
desert comes most alive at night, so that's when all
the species you know that are not wanting to hang
out on the heat of the desert, they come out
and this place becomes like a whole other place at night.
So it is it is definitely worth protecting this and
(19:59):
every single day, you know, because sometimes as we might
not see the biodiversity in our first visit, it's there,
and we like the amounts of plants and animals word
enough to sustain entire populations of people as well in
the past. So I think once you build that relationship
(20:20):
with the desert and able to experience, you and everybody
that I have talked started developing this really deep appreciation
for it, for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, it sort of pulls you in once you once
you appreciate, Yeah, you become a desert person. We're talking
about this cumber the other day, how like you just
turned into a desert you know, you can see who
the desert people are and who the people have been
at there before. So obviously the desert is a beautiful
place in a very diverse place, but it's not a
(20:51):
place that it's necessarily easy to cross, right and when
we as you've explained so well, there are the wall
is not a contiguous thing. It's full of gaps and holes,
and a lot of the places where there are gaps
of places where it's hard to build and therefore it's
hard to cross. Can you explain what this It creates
(21:12):
a funnel, right, like a funneling effects through the gap sometimes.
Can you explain what that means people who are crossing north.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Yeah, there is a huge issue these funnels or areas
where there are no walls, because what's been happening and
we observe is that as more people start going to
these really remote areas of the desert, we have two issues.
You know, First, people is putting themselves on bigger danger
(21:43):
and they're more likely to get themselves hurt and some
of them die. So as also you start pushing up
people to more remote areas out in the desert where
it used to be these nature pristine environments. Now we
have the impacts of people moving through these areas, and
(22:04):
not only the impacts of the people, but you got
the impacts of border patrol in the area with their
trucks and dragging tires to erase their footprints.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And these are really.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Fragile soils already opening new roads through the desert with
ATVs or flying helicopters on these mountains or drones or
putting lights in the middle of areas where used to
be one of the most darkest skies in the in
the country. So all of those put together create huge
(22:37):
issues for people and the environment as well.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, the light thing you mentioned, like it's very I
don't know people again who haven't been to the desert
when understand how much more you can see when there
is no light two hundreds of miles. There's a place
I like to go which recently got a Border Patrol
like substation, and now it's just like glowing and you
can't see the Noky Way and things. In addition to
(23:01):
the human impact, which is we said is terrible, right,
Like I think eight one hundred and sixty people Border
Patrol found in twenty twenty two had died crossing north.
That's a very low estimate for the amount of people
who died, and Border Patrol are kind of actively trying
not to count all of the deaths according to agents
(23:21):
I've spoken to.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Right, So.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
This is a difficult topic because it's.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
A horrible thing that like shouldn't happen, But I guess
can we discuss how lethal these The wall is for
people crossing north if you're comfortable talking about.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
That, yeah, well, definitely.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
The design of it, like on most of places, is
a thirty foot wall with a metal plate on the
top on this.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
For some.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Sources, I have heard that it was designed because when
people relish terry food high, they start kind of getting
dizzy or nauseous, so they're more likely to fall down.
So it's already like a dead apparatus, you know, like
designed to kill.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Still people will venture and give it a try. Some
young folks are almost.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
It's kind of funny to see them climb, how fast
they're able to do it. But we got to remember
that not only like young folks are trying to climb,
you know, sometimes there is a older lady or sometimes
an older man that wants to give it a try.
And the rate of injuries definitely has increased so much.
(24:40):
Or people falling because they got dizzy, or they got nausios,
or they burn their hands or they lost balance and
then fall from thirty feet high.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
You know, it can be lethal.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
So we have a lot of broken legs, spine injuries,
head trauma, people that has fall or people one person
one time hang out from it and end up choking herself.
So there is definitely a lot of dead when people
try to go over the wall. But we also see
people now just cutting through the bowler so it's easier
(25:15):
and then just put the thing back. So there is
all kinds of people doing in all different kinds of
ways depending on the area, And.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
We see a little bit of everything for sure.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And of course, you know, if you try to reach
for the gaps, then you have to do a longer hike,
and usually people is not even able to carry the
amount of water that they need to do these kind
of hikes. We got to remember that a lot of
the people that we encounter now in the border they
come from other kinds of environments. They're not familiar with
(25:48):
the desert. They come from tropical areas where they can
find water everywhere. They are not used to the heat
of the dry heat of the desert. They are not
used to the cold of the nights of the desert.
So all of these factors make this environment really challenging
for people to try to cross it.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yeah, tell in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, And it's a very hard environment. Like
I spent a lot of time camping in the desert,
and I I don't think there's a year that I've
been hiking in the desert that I haven't rescued someone
who was very well equipped and had just gone on
a day hike, right and they've run out of water,
they've overheated, they've drunk water and not electrolytes, and they've
(26:30):
got hype andatremia whatever it is like that. And that's
people who went to our EI today before alone, people
who've been walking since the Darian Gap, or you know,
people who are much lesser means to equip themselves. It's
a very dangerous environment people maybe listening and thinking, like
(26:56):
I think with immigration issues and specifically with the wall
and the border, it's such an apparatus right the whole
you know, DHS in its one hundred and seventy five
billion dollar budget, it's such such an apparatus that people
can feel powerless in trying to just put a stop
to this, to make this change, to make this even
(27:17):
you know, a little bit more humane, just so we
seem to like ratchet up the evil meter every year
at the border, regardless of Democrats or Republicans, Like it
doesn't matter, what would you suggest folks listening can do
to make it more humane to advocate for, like even
less impactful border policies on the environment or on people.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Yeah, I think we need to look at what we
have done so far and look at the results.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I think we can see that in some areas to
build a border wall, a mile of border wall, we're
spending over the thirty million dollars, and I think it's
important to think about what can we do with that money.
You know, there is a lot of resources that we
have used for this false sense of security a border
(28:13):
work can give us, and it's just not working the
way it's supposed to be working, and it's putting a
lot of pressure on the environment. And if we really
care about the environment, I think that should not be
after talk conversation because I think when we listen to
politicians and it's our next time to go out to vote,
(28:36):
we need to really start asking.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
The questions about the environment.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I know it's important that we here in the border
narrative of politicians talking about immigration, border security, trade with Mexico,
but there is very little talk in the border around
the environmental issues, you know, and that shouldn't be an
afterthought border people. People that lives in the borderlands also
(29:03):
should have a chance to live on a on a
good environment, a clean environment. Yeah and yeah, so I
think a solution or for people things that they can
do is definitely like ask those questions when it's time
to bote and see how can we really address root causes.
(29:25):
You know, the border wall is just a medieval solution
that it's really trying to stop such a complex issue.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
By doing that, it's not going to work out.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
So it's originally Border Patrol said that the border wall
is just the only intention it has is to slow
down people for at least five minutes. Well is it
really worth it then, you know, to slow them five
more minutes to all these impacts and all these expenses
that we're doing, and the maintenance that nobody has talked
(29:59):
about yet is that we have sections of the wall
already that they're falling apart because it was just thrown
up really fast.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
You know, the.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Erosion is already exposing the foundation, and we are looking
at millions of millions of dollars that will come just
to try to keep it every year after every monsoon season.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, yeah, I know in h on the real grand
as well, like the wake from the border patrol boats
is causing the river to undercut.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
The foundation of the wall.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, which is fantastic on the part of the government.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Good work. And yeah, Eric, where can people follow you
and your.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Efforts if they want to, if they want to follow
along online and maybe see some pitches of the border
and hear more about what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you, James.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
I appreciate that we do have a website at Sierra
Club Border Length. You can learn all about the waivers there.
You can learn a lot of the work that we've
been doing in the past. We're part of a larger
coalition of environmental related border organizations. We work with people
all the way from California through Texas, but mostly here
(31:08):
in Arizona.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
And we have our social media sere A Club Borderlands.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all of
the different We have a YouTube channel as well, and
we can see some of the videos of the documenting
that we do. We're able to go down to the
border document with drones so people can actually look at
the irony of the whole project.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
We do also outings.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
That we take people out into.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
The desert to.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Get familiar with the issues themselves. We do clean up
at the local rivers and collaborate with other.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Organizations all kinds of works.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
So if people on the audiences based here in Arizona,
they're welcome to join us to some of these autings
or activities that we do with the community. We are
going to do an announcement probably in the next month
because since twenty nineteen, Sierra Club, in collaboration with the
Southern Border Community coalitions to the federal government for the
(32:10):
legal use of funds of the two eighty four and
two eight h eight.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Funds, which were funds.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
That were originally allocated for the military and drug related
programs that were used to border well construction.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
So we sue the government and we're.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
About to settle on this and we're hoping that we're
going to get good results on environmental remediation and wildlife
passages along the Southern Border.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Oh great, that's good to hear.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, there are a lot of lawsuits individual tribe suit
the government as well for that, and so we'll have
to do a lawsuit roundup one day and have you back. Well,
Thank you very much, Eric, thank you for joining us.
And sharing some of your experiences along the bordy.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Absolutely, thank you for the invitation and I'll see talk
to you sir.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Yeah, It could Happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit
our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Hello, it's just me again. Today it's James.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
I'm joined by Eric Mesa, who will introduce himself in
a second, and we're going to be discussing the environmental
and human impact of the border policies in the last
decade or thereabouts, and to include the border wall.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
So Eric, would you like to introduce yourself.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Thank you, James. Of course.
Speaker 4 (00:26):
My name is Eric Mesa. I you hear him pronounced,
and I am the Border of the Lands coordinator for Sierrah Club,
part of the Grand Canyon Chapter based out of tuson Arisona,
which is the on cedar land of the Tona Autumn
and Pasco Yaki people.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Many other tribes America. Holm thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Yeah, thank you very much for joining us. And it's
a fantastic introduction.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
So, Eric, I think if we start out by just
explaining what the border wall kind of looks like in
the landscape and how it breaks in the landscape, because
although it's something that you and I might see almost
every day, for a lot of people, I think that
they kind of saw on the news three or four
years ago and then then you start reporting on it.
(01:10):
So can you explain like the physical kind of stature
and impact of the wall.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
Yes, well, I think for each person it definitely takes
into it with the perspective that they might have. You know,
it definitely impacts people in a different way. But one
thing that you can like notice as soon as you
see it is how massive it is, how it just
divides these pristine, beautiful Sonoran desert lands and divides them
(01:41):
on half. So that already for us as on organization,
since the beginning and the conception of the idea of
start rolling all of these remote areas, start looking at
the environmental impact that social action can have. So it's
always really hard to see and just to imagine and
(02:01):
to think about all of the different things, not only people,
but all the different movement that used to happen in
these areas now as being completely interrupted.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I remember in twenty twenty, I was out on Kume
Island in a place called Campo filming a Kumi I
protest against the desecration of their sacred sites by the
Actually I was writing for this Yerra club and I
saw a deer that day, like and it just came
up to the wall, and it was like, what the
(02:32):
fuck do I do? Like this wasn't here last time
I came here, and.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
It was just this.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Really, I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
Obviously the world those horrible, cruel things to people every day,
but I don't know why. It struck me at how
unnatural and unwelcome it was in that place, but it did.
So I think maybe if we could look at these
different The wall spans a huge area and stops randomly
throughout that area, so preps you could explain some of
(02:58):
the ecological impacts. Maybe if we still where you are
in Tucson, and then we move gradually west to where
I am at the western end of it, and would
that be a good sort of way to do that.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, of course.
Speaker 4 (03:11):
Well, here in Tucson, our closest border is Nogalles, and
once we started moving east or I'm sorry west from there,
the closest one right next to it's called Sassabi, And
as you mentioned Nogalles, there is big walls, and then
soon it stops because then the terrain gets very uneven.
(03:32):
There is a range of mountain called the Pahariito Mountains,
which is one of the most biodiverse areas here in
the Southwest, with some endemic species of plants and animals. Actually,
thankfully the wall stops there, and then there is certain
areas that there is a lot of unfinished projects, or
(03:53):
we also call them orphan walls, like sections of the
wall that never were completed, and then you stand there. Unfortunately,
to get them up there, there was a lot of impact.
For example, they use dynamite to blow up entire mountaintops
(04:14):
to get equipment up there, and some of the cases
without even constructing any wall at the end.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
So it's really unfortunate because a lot of.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Debris that came out of these explosions right now, it's
causing a lot of erosion issues and it's like moving
into those canyons and covering a lot of the.
Speaker 3 (04:33):
Vegetation that was there before.
Speaker 4 (04:36):
Then as you keep coming passing through the Phariito Mountains,
then you get to the area called the Buenos Aires
National Refuge near the town of Sassab, and there is
a large segment of a wall there with twenty six gaps,
small gaps, big gaps, and all of these gaps have
been there since the beginning of the construction. CBP recently
(05:00):
announced that they're going to be closing some of these gaps.
They have been used by migrants a lot recently, but
in recent days actually the influx of migrants have definitely
declined a lot, different to what other people seen in
other parts of the country, but especially in this area
(05:23):
in Arizona, we didn't see the huge amounts of migrants
coming after Title forty two.
Speaker 3 (05:28):
So once you pass that section, then you get.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
To what's the Once you pass the Sasab Report of Entry,
then you enter the Tona Autumn Reservation. Ton Autumn decided
that they didn't want to wall there, and they fought
for it, and they didn't build a wall.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Enter is about.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
I'm not really sure about the number of miles. I
think there is about sixteen to twenty two miles of
just the land that only contains what's known as a.
Speaker 3 (05:59):
Vehicle brier or normandy barriers.
Speaker 4 (06:02):
These are made out of like old train tracks, which
we really like environmentally speaking because it allows the movement
of the animals and the flow of the water as well.
And then once you pass the reservation, then you go
into Organ Pipe National Park, and then you start seeing
(06:25):
more wall sections on areas like Kito w Akito Springs
like a very important ceremonial site for the ton He
has shed autown people and a lot of.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Destruction on those areas.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Sacred sites as well, there are very cultural and important
for the Tono ten people, like Monument.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
Hill, a burial site.
Speaker 4 (06:47):
That wall was built right on top of it, and
just keep moving and then you get to areas that
are more remote until you get to Yuma, and then
we have also Coco Pa Reservation there that there is
no wall. The wall exists just after the reservation and
(07:13):
there are some segments I believe that still have no
wall in there. Recently there was the action by the
state governor to put shipping containers there.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
They were removed recently to be replaced with the.
Speaker 4 (07:27):
Regular bowler type of boat. The wall that you see
in other places. And yes, you keep coming past gal
Lexico and all those areas until you get to Kumie
Land and the Atai Mountains and all the way to
what's known as Friendship Park, which is a BI national
(07:50):
park located in the border between San Diego and Tijuana,
which is the last BI national parker the only one
that we have in the southern border. And now as
we speak, new thirty full walls are being built in
that area as well, so even so President Biden.
Speaker 3 (08:11):
Said that he was not going to build more walls.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
We still see a new construction happening as we speak
right now.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, And we've had friends of Friendship Park on our
share before and I'm sure we will again because they
do very important work and it's a very important space
for so many families who are divided by the border.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
So I think people, I guess when we talk about
ecological impact, people always like people like big animals, right,
So the charismatic megafauna, I guess that are impacted by this.
So maybe that's a good way to look at this.
I know that there are some jaguars jaguars, however you
(08:52):
want to say that that are impacted in it's my
very British penunciation. In Arizona, there is the bighorn sheep
of course, who are closer to me need to Cumba
where people will have heard the scripted series by the
time this comes out, so they'll be familiar with the Cumba.
Can you talk about the impact of the wall and
those sort of bigger animals.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (09:15):
That has been our main focus as an environmental organization
since two thousand and five, when the real ID Waiver
came up, signed by George W. Bush as a response
to nine to eleven and the intention of security borders.
Speaker 3 (09:34):
The real ID Act waved every.
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Single environmental law that we know, like, including the Endangered
Species Act, Clean Water Act, the lot that you can
imagine it's included. It's about forty or more of these laws.
We're completely waved in order to start building walls. We
(09:57):
noticed right away that the first walls are st coming up.
It was really easy for people to go over, under cut.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Through them, or go around them.
Speaker 4 (10:06):
But then we start noticing the animals were not able
to do that anymore. We're start seeing the impacts on
some of the species that are super important. You remember
the species of the desert. They need to cover large
amounts of territories to find the resources they need to survive.
We're talking about large migration routes that go from Mexico
(10:29):
into the United States, back and forth. And just to
mention some of the species that are considered in danger
in the area of California.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
We got the big corn chip.
Speaker 4 (10:39):
Then you start coming and there's the Sonora and desert
pro corn into the Sero, the altar. Then we got jaguars,
in Arizona, we have also black bears. The thing that
makes this area so special here in Arizona is what
we have known as the Sky Islands, which is really
high altitude mountains that you can find. Some of the
(11:01):
species that come from the north, this is their southest
more territory, and some of the species from the south
this is the northest most territory. So species like jaguars
can all of a sudden be drinking water out of
the same pond with a black bear, and that is
very unusual and very rare and very amazing, you know.
(11:23):
So we also have ocelots, which is another type of
cat that lives here in Arizona. We also have the
Mexican gray wolf species there is in danger that use
these corridors back and forth, and unfortunately we haven't had
the opportunity to track properly a lot of these animals
(11:46):
to recognize their migration patterns, because a lot of these
animals cannot be put on a GPS.
Speaker 3 (11:54):
Color for example.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
But what we have done is put a lot of
cameras on the wilderness and we're able to photograph jauars
on this side of the border and photograph the same
Jahwa a few years later in Mexico or vice versa.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
So there is a lot.
Speaker 4 (12:10):
Of proof that all these animals have been using these
corridors for thousands of years. There is plenty of evidence
that the importance of these wildlife corridors in the Sonoran Desert.
And also we see, you know, like that with the
construction of the border wall, a lot of the species
that we used to see more often in the United
(12:32):
States we don't see as much anymore. Animals have a memory,
so when they come and all of a sudden cee
this is really large obstacle, they're less likely to come.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
Back and try it again.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
And that can be an a racial thing that they
came past it two future generations.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
One thing that you mentioned that which I think is
something else which it stresses, Like you spoke about how
the jaguars and the pest can share the same pond.
But the wall and the roads, which we should mention
that too, right, Like people didn't just get helicoptered in
to build the wall. They had to first build roads
to get to the place where the border is to
build the wall. And can we talk about how those
(13:20):
have affected drainage and water sources along the border.
Speaker 3 (13:24):
Absolutely. Yeah, water is life.
Speaker 4 (13:26):
So here in Arizona, for example, we have two rivers
that actually flow on north, the San Pedro River and
the Santa Cruz River. These are rivers for example, San
Pedro is born in Mexico and the Santa Cruz comes
in the United States, then goes down to Mexico and then.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Goes up again. And a lot of the drainage that
has been.
Speaker 4 (13:50):
One of the biggest issues that we have encounter because
the wall acts like a dam almost and in a
lot of places doesn't allow the water to flow as
it used to, and that is going to bring an
impact to all of the different species of animals but
also the plants that depend on this water to survive.
So when the construction of the border wall came, you
(14:15):
mentioned roads, and.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
The road right next or adjacent to the wall.
Speaker 4 (14:20):
Now it's like a four or five line road in
some places, and it's been also increased the elevation. So
when you increase the elevation on these roads and do
not have the proper drainage on the areas that need
to be and then you're going to have water being
stuck on one side or the oider of the border
(14:43):
and not able to make it to the areas where
it used to flow normally. So we might not see
the consequences and the first year or the second year,
but we can start seeing consequences in a few years
from now. Several plants all of ausdden starting to die
because they didn't have the water that their habita used
to provide for them.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So that's why they grew there on the first place.
Speaker 4 (15:05):
So we might see a lot of changes on the
landscape in regards of the way that the water moved
on those places.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
So another thing I want to address is like the
we talked about plants, right, and a number of cacti,
specifically like cacti that is sacred to tou Hona autumn
people have been either moved or destroyed in the in
the construction of the wall around organ pipe and like
just not on their reservation, but very much on their
(15:34):
unseated homelands, right Yeah.
Speaker 4 (15:37):
Yeah, the sawado cactus, it is considered as a relative
for the ton autumn So you can just imagine the
sentiment of the ton autumn people by looking at the
sawados being chopped or bulldoze on these areas considered sacred
for them, So there was definitely a lot of that happened.
(16:00):
I mean, there is an airport, but we haven't seen
it yet. It's just on written right now that they're
going to revegitate some of these areas that got impacted.
We're still waiting for that.
Speaker 2 (16:13):
Yeah, And that stuff always comes like last and slowest
if it happens at all. And I know like both
the Kumii the Autumn, I'm sure other Atajoon Autumn, other
tribes have had their their ancestral burial grounds as you mentioned, destroyed,
and for a similar reason to the real Idea Act,
I think it was different. I think this was because
it was done in an executive order and it was
(16:33):
an emergency that they waived a lot of those Normally
they would have tribal nations would have the right to
sort of inspect and do a survey before digging that
I know in twenty twenty they were they weren't doing
that right.
Speaker 4 (16:47):
No, they didn't know, so they really The Act also
has a lot there to protects archaeological resources, so they
were able to do those things when there was if
it was on feederal land and it was indigenous sacred site.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, so another thing talking of federal land. That we
should probably mention is this concept of the Roosevelt Reservation
that people might not be familiar with. Can you explain
what that is to folks?
Speaker 3 (17:21):
The Roosevelt Reservation.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
It is the area the border about sixty feet away
from where the border line or division is, and that's
what's known as the Roosevelt Reservation.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
So that is an area that's right.
Speaker 4 (17:38):
Now mostly managed by CBP border patron and.
Speaker 2 (17:45):
People can't it's like technically not it can't be private land,
right or the government can take it at any point.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
Is that right?
Speaker 3 (17:53):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
And that's what they were using in the case of
the around Campo. That's what they We're doing. One thing
I think we've neglected to do. I guess I spent
half my life trying to do this. But I'll let
you take a swing at it, is like, can you
describe these desert landscapes and for people who are because
people think of the desert, right and they think of
(18:15):
Osita wells, like where people like to go drive their vehicles,
you know, and it looks like Saudi Arabia, But that's
not most of the desert. The desert is actually a
very live place and a place full of like life
that has struggled and made a way to exist there,
can you explain. And it's a very special place, not
(18:36):
just sort of because it's unique, but it has a
real sort of well yeah, it has a uniqueness that
you can't really feel anywhere else in the world.
Speaker 4 (18:44):
I guess yes, Thank you, James. I definitely agree with
you on that. As a person that I grew up
here and had this deep appreciation for the desert environment,
I think it's it is such a beautiful area, and
not only beautiful on the sense that it's the Sonoran Desert,
(19:06):
for example, is considered the most biodiverse desert.
Speaker 3 (19:10):
In the world.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
So yeah, so it's considered a desert because the amount
of water that we have, but the amount of species
it matches no other desert in the world. Here we
have the most species of plants, most species of animals,
and only for people like and people goes out there
sometimes on a hike on the desert and might not
see much of the wildlife there old than the birds,
(19:34):
and especially on areas where there is a little bit
of water. But you got to remember also that the
desert comes most alive at night, so that's when all
the species you know that are not wanting to hang
out on the heat of the desert, they come out
and this place becomes like a whole other place at night.
So it is it is definitely worth protecting this and
(19:59):
every single day, you know, because sometimes as we might
not see the biodiversity in our first visit, it's there,
and we like the amounts of plants and animals word
enough to sustain entire populations of people as well in
the past. So I think once you build that relationship
(20:20):
with the desert and able to experience, you and everybody
that I have talked started developing this really deep appreciation
for it, for sure.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
Yeah, it sort of pulls you in once you once
you appreciate, Yeah, you become a desert person. We're talking
about this cumber the other day, how like you just
turned into a desert you know, you can see who
the desert people are and who the people have been
at there before. So obviously the desert is a beautiful
place in a very diverse place, but it's not a
(20:51):
place that it's necessarily easy to cross, right and when
we as you've explained so well, there are the wall
is not a contiguous thing. It's full of gaps and holes,
and a lot of the places where there are gaps
of places where it's hard to build and therefore it's
hard to cross. Can you explain what this It creates
(21:12):
a funnel, right, like a funneling effects through the gap sometimes.
Can you explain what that means people who are crossing north.
Speaker 4 (21:20):
Yeah, there is a huge issue these funnels or areas
where there are no walls, because what's been happening and
we observe is that as more people start going to
these really remote areas of the desert, we have two issues.
You know, First, people is putting themselves on bigger danger
(21:43):
and they're more likely to get themselves hurt and some
of them die. So as also you start pushing up
people to more remote areas out in the desert where
it used to be these nature pristine environments. Now we
have the impacts of people moving through these areas, and
(22:04):
not only the impacts of the people, but you got
the impacts of border patrol in the area with their
trucks and dragging tires to erase their footprints.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
And these are really.
Speaker 4 (22:16):
Fragile soils already opening new roads through the desert with
ATVs or flying helicopters on these mountains or drones or
putting lights in the middle of areas where used to
be one of the most darkest skies in the in
the country. So all of those put together create huge
(22:37):
issues for people and the environment as well.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (22:40):
Yeah, the light thing you mentioned, like it's very I
don't know people again who haven't been to the desert
when understand how much more you can see when there
is no light two hundreds of miles. There's a place
I like to go which recently got a Border Patrol
like substation, and now it's just like glowing and you
can't see the Noky Way and things. In addition to
(23:01):
the human impact, which is we said is terrible, right,
Like I think eight one hundred and sixty people Border
Patrol found in twenty twenty two had died crossing north.
That's a very low estimate for the amount of people
who died, and Border Patrol are kind of actively trying
not to count all of the deaths according to agents
(23:21):
I've spoken to.
Speaker 3 (23:22):
Right, So.
Speaker 1 (23:25):
This is a difficult topic because it's.
Speaker 2 (23:27):
A horrible thing that like shouldn't happen, But I guess
can we discuss how lethal these The wall is for
people crossing north if you're comfortable talking about.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
That, yeah, well, definitely.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
The design of it, like on most of places, is
a thirty foot wall with a metal plate on the
top on this.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
For some.
Speaker 4 (23:55):
Sources, I have heard that it was designed because when
people relish terry food high, they start kind of getting
dizzy or nauseous, so they're more likely to fall down.
So it's already like a dead apparatus, you know, like
designed to kill.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
Still people will venture and give it a try. Some
young folks are almost.
Speaker 4 (24:17):
It's kind of funny to see them climb, how fast
they're able to do it. But we got to remember
that not only like young folks are trying to climb,
you know, sometimes there is a older lady or sometimes
an older man that wants to give it a try.
And the rate of injuries definitely has increased so much.
(24:40):
Or people falling because they got dizzy, or they got nausios,
or they burn their hands or they lost balance and
then fall from thirty feet high.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
You know, it can be lethal.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
So we have a lot of broken legs, spine injuries,
head trauma, people that has fall or people one person
one time hang out from it and end up choking herself.
So there is definitely a lot of dead when people
try to go over the wall. But we also see
people now just cutting through the bowler so it's easier
(25:15):
and then just put the thing back. So there is
all kinds of people doing in all different kinds of
ways depending on the area, And.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
We see a little bit of everything for sure.
Speaker 4 (25:28):
And of course, you know, if you try to reach
for the gaps, then you have to do a longer hike,
and usually people is not even able to carry the
amount of water that they need to do these kind
of hikes. We got to remember that a lot of
the people that we encounter now in the border they
come from other kinds of environments. They're not familiar with
(25:48):
the desert. They come from tropical areas where they can
find water everywhere. They are not used to the heat
of the dry heat of the desert. They are not
used to the cold of the nights of the desert.
So all of these factors make this environment really challenging
for people to try to cross it.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
Yeah, tell in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Yeah, yeah, definitely, And it's a very hard environment. Like
I spent a lot of time camping in the desert,
and I I don't think there's a year that I've
been hiking in the desert that I haven't rescued someone
who was very well equipped and had just gone on
a day hike, right and they've run out of water,
they've overheated, they've drunk water and not electrolytes, and they've
(26:30):
got hype andatremia whatever it is like that. And that's
people who went to our EI today before alone, people
who've been walking since the Darian Gap, or you know,
people who are much lesser means to equip themselves. It's
a very dangerous environment people maybe listening and thinking, like
(26:56):
I think with immigration issues and specifically with the wall
and the border, it's such an apparatus right the whole
you know, DHS in its one hundred and seventy five
billion dollar budget, it's such such an apparatus that people
can feel powerless in trying to just put a stop
to this, to make this change, to make this even
(27:17):
you know, a little bit more humane, just so we
seem to like ratchet up the evil meter every year
at the border, regardless of Democrats or Republicans, Like it
doesn't matter, what would you suggest folks listening can do
to make it more humane to advocate for, like even
less impactful border policies on the environment or on people.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
Yeah, I think we need to look at what we
have done so far and look at the results.
Speaker 3 (27:49):
You know.
Speaker 4 (27:49):
I think we can see that in some areas to
build a border wall, a mile of border wall, we're
spending over the thirty million dollars, and I think it's
important to think about what can we do with that money.
You know, there is a lot of resources that we
have used for this false sense of security a border
(28:13):
work can give us, and it's just not working the
way it's supposed to be working, and it's putting a
lot of pressure on the environment. And if we really
care about the environment, I think that should not be
after talk conversation because I think when we listen to
politicians and it's our next time to go out to vote,
(28:36):
we need to really start asking.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
The questions about the environment.
Speaker 4 (28:39):
I know it's important that we here in the border
narrative of politicians talking about immigration, border security, trade with Mexico,
but there is very little talk in the border around
the environmental issues, you know, and that shouldn't be an
afterthought border people. People that lives in the borderlands also
(29:03):
should have a chance to live on a on a
good environment, a clean environment. Yeah and yeah, so I
think a solution or for people things that they can
do is definitely like ask those questions when it's time
to bote and see how can we really address root causes.
(29:25):
You know, the border wall is just a medieval solution
that it's really trying to stop such a complex issue.
Speaker 3 (29:35):
By doing that, it's not going to work out.
Speaker 4 (29:38):
So it's originally Border Patrol said that the border wall
is just the only intention it has is to slow
down people for at least five minutes. Well is it
really worth it then, you know, to slow them five
more minutes to all these impacts and all these expenses
that we're doing, and the maintenance that nobody has talked
(29:59):
about yet is that we have sections of the wall
already that they're falling apart because it was just thrown
up really fast.
Speaker 3 (30:06):
You know, the.
Speaker 4 (30:06):
Erosion is already exposing the foundation, and we are looking
at millions of millions of dollars that will come just
to try to keep it every year after every monsoon season.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Yeah, yeah, I know in h on the real grand
as well, like the wake from the border patrol boats
is causing the river to undercut.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
The foundation of the wall.
Speaker 2 (30:28):
Yeah, which is fantastic on the part of the government.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Good work. And yeah, Eric, where can people follow you
and your.
Speaker 2 (30:37):
Efforts if they want to, if they want to follow
along online and maybe see some pitches of the border
and hear more about what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (30:45):
Thank you, James.
Speaker 4 (30:45):
I appreciate that we do have a website at Sierra
Club Border Length. You can learn all about the waivers there.
You can learn a lot of the work that we've
been doing in the past. We're part of a larger
coalition of environmental related border organizations. We work with people
all the way from California through Texas, but mostly here
(31:08):
in Arizona.
Speaker 3 (31:09):
And we have our social media sere A Club Borderlands.
Speaker 4 (31:13):
You can find us on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all of
the different We have a YouTube channel as well, and
we can see some of the videos of the documenting
that we do. We're able to go down to the
border document with drones so people can actually look at
the irony of the whole project.
Speaker 3 (31:32):
We do also outings.
Speaker 4 (31:35):
That we take people out into.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
The desert to.
Speaker 4 (31:39):
Get familiar with the issues themselves. We do clean up
at the local rivers and collaborate with other.
Speaker 3 (31:46):
Organizations all kinds of works.
Speaker 4 (31:48):
So if people on the audiences based here in Arizona,
they're welcome to join us to some of these autings
or activities that we do with the community. We are
going to do an announcement probably in the next month
because since twenty nineteen, Sierra Club, in collaboration with the
Southern Border Community coalitions to the federal government for the
(32:10):
legal use of funds of the two eighty four and
two eight h eight.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
Funds, which were funds.
Speaker 4 (32:16):
That were originally allocated for the military and drug related
programs that were used to border well construction.
Speaker 3 (32:25):
So we sue the government and we're.
Speaker 4 (32:27):
About to settle on this and we're hoping that we're
going to get good results on environmental remediation and wildlife
passages along the Southern Border.
Speaker 1 (32:36):
Oh great, that's good to hear.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Yeah, there are a lot of lawsuits individual tribe suit
the government as well for that, and so we'll have
to do a lawsuit roundup one day and have you back. Well,
Thank you very much, Eric, thank you for joining us.
And sharing some of your experiences along the bordy.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
Absolutely, thank you for the invitation and I'll see talk
to you sir.
Speaker 3 (32:59):
Yeah, It could Happen here as a production of cool
Zone Media. For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit
our website coolzonemedia dot com or check us out on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 3 (33:15):
You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated
monthly at coolzonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
Show Links
AboutPopular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.
Therapy Gecko
An unlicensed lizard psychologist travels the universe talking to strangers about absolutely nothing. TO CALL THE GECKO: follow me on https://www.twitch.tv/lyleforever to get a notification for when I am taking calls. I am usually live Mondays, Wednesdays, and Fridays but lately a lot of other times too. I am a gecko.