January 8, 2024 • 48 mins
James is joined by Berivan from the YPJ Information & Documentation Office to discuss the ongoing drone war against Rojava and how the revolution there is making progress despite this.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello everyone, it's me today James, and I'm joined by
Benevan from the YPJ Information Authors, and we're going to
discuss today and chiefly that the Turkish bombing campaign against
it which has been happening in the last few weeks
and the last few months and the last few years.
So we wanted to set that in context for you.
(00:27):
And everyone's attention has been very much focused on other conflicts,
but that doesn't mean that this one isn't important, and
it's one that obviously listeners will be familiar with, so
we wanted to bring you an update on that. Welcome,
very vun Hello, thank you, Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Okay, happy to be here today. Good.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Let's start by, I think, just in case people need
a refresher or they haven't listened to some of the
other stuff, talk about what's happening in and why they
I guess why. It's why it's unique and what makes
it special.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Okay, So, actually right now in Java, for more than
ten years there's a revolution happening. I think most people
heard that. For some twenty eleven and so on, there
was like something called the Arab string. But actually in
the same time in this region in northern east Syria
actually also called like in the northern eastern part of Syria,
(01:27):
there's a region called Java, which is like a big
part of Kurtish population. There's also Christian population like Assyria,
and Arminian population and also Arab population. Like it's a
very colorful region, you can say. So in this region
twenty eleven, in this time and then twenty twelve, a
(01:49):
revolution started, which is actually based on a long term
struggle of the Kurdish movement and its experiences. And the
revolution was like mostly based on the idea to gain
democratic autonomy and today gain like democratic self administration. Why
(02:11):
because like the Syrian regime on the one hand was
like very oppressive towards the Kurdish people and on the
other hand, like it was like out topered Parian regime.
So there was like this wish to create something different,
which was actually created here in the region in Java. Yeah,
(02:34):
so I think this we can say at first, like
what happened was that relusion started and until today it's continuing.
Like it's a very like basic change of people's life.
We can say that happened here like democratic administration in
all areas of life, and also like, for example, a
(02:54):
great deal of a women's organization to achieve also women's
So the solutions like based on these principles of democratic
self administration, of women's freedom, and also of ecologies.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, perhaps you can explain people who aren't familiar a
little bit more about the women's revolution, because I think
that is something that that's extremely unique and that people
might not have like if they've heard of it, perhaps
they haven't really you know, I think the mainstream press
doesn't covered particularly well. So if you could explain, like
maybe something about the co chair system or the relationship
(03:32):
between yourselves and the yepigae and how that works.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah. So actually I was just something like speaking about
the like when the revolution was happening, so I from
beginning online women also took place in it, like which
was already occasion the code of freedom movement in general,
is like that woman was like equally were equally taking
part in it and also always founded their own organizations,
(03:58):
like not like substitute to a general organization or something
like this, but actually like their own organization that at
the same time cooperate with the general organization. So there
was already this principle of women's autonomy. So this was
also adopted in Rehervoir. So in all areas which also
(04:19):
includes like political areas, areas of daily life, but also
military fields, women organized. So actually in the beginning of
the solution, they were like the society's kind of self
defense forces building us and in the beginning there were
already women in it. And then there was also the
(04:42):
foundation of hitep Gay like the people's Defense forces. But
after this also the White Pgay women's Protection units were founded.
So actually it's like a fully autonomous women's units that
take care of defending their homeland on the one hand,
(05:06):
but on the other hand, also made like a great
deal of change in the society in the daily life
of women because in the region that was before like
maybe to somebody like feudal or like because of the
authoria tennestry in the state, like there was no protection
for women's rights or something like this, and for example,
(05:30):
there was like the traditions of marrying a woman at
a young age or something like this. This was actually
changed by this woman's polution, Like the everyday life of
women was a change and is still changing, like it's
still a struggle because it meets changing the society in general. Yeah,
(05:50):
so there's like in every area of life today there's
like autonomous women's organization and the existing which makes its
with the main the most like profound woman's solution that
on to now is happening, I think. So it's like
really important like samplers for a woman. Everyone in the.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Work, Yeah, very much, and it is a genuinely profound change.
Having spent a little bit of time there earlier this year,
that it's very notable that you spent a lot of
time in that part of the world, how different things are.
And then perhaps we should talk about the battle against
the so called Samic state or dasher Isis or whatever
(06:31):
you want to call it. In the role that THEPGPJ
and SDF played in that, I can explain a little
about about that fight and the fighting that happened. And
also like the tremendous number of people who died fighting
or were martyred in the language it is used by
(06:51):
the revolution about them.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
So like, uh, in general, I think everyone in the
work for listen to the name of the White jas
Woman's Protection Units and the relationship to ISIS. But actually
from the beginning on they fought like against this kind
of let's say like different like fundamentalists or mercenary groups
(07:16):
that were existing in the region, and when Isis was
coming up, Like the biggest almost known battle that actually
the world for the first time really saw was the
Battle for Kobanis where for example, the hypj with like
(07:38):
very very limited possibilities and the fought against the Isis
and actually succeeded like to defeat iss and to defend
the city of Kobani, which was kind of like a
breaking point where things started to turn around. Or we
have also had the point where forks are the Shanngha
(08:01):
was attacked, which is like in south post de Son,
it's not like in the era region, it's not even
in the same region. But the YPA also played like
the role in opening a corridor for the people who
tried to flee for the Yuzd people who like are
people who have faced like many genocides in history, and
(08:23):
in order to save them from the genocide of Isis,
the RPJA opened a corridor to help them to flee.
So and there are like many stories or like in
the end, the liberation of the city of Racca, which
was kind of known like as the center of the ISIS,
(08:44):
which also we can say like the Women's Force played
like a junior rein God this. So there are many
examples where we can say, like how deciding for examples
as of the Vibea was for the defeat of ISIS.
And I think on the other hand, we also have
(09:06):
to say that it is not completely defeated, because it
seemed like some support from outside structures, like from Turkey,
so there are still some like sales or form. There
are a lot of details detainees like before that was
happening at a try to break out from the detention
(09:29):
centers in twenty twenty two, So it's not like it's
completely vanished from the earth, but the actual defeat was
like reached by the JAP.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
For Yeah, I think it's very important too. Like you
spoke about those like incarcerated ice form RIIS fighters right
and their attempt to break out. I think that's maybe
a good chance for us to talk about like some
other former risis fighters and like guarding in I think
(10:01):
it was called Turkey called Operation peace Spring. I think right,
like the these these Turkish incursions into uh into into Rojaba,
into like and and into like Syrian territory, can you
explain a little bit about like how I guess this
will get us to the modern day and and the bombing,
(10:23):
but like perhaps you can explain how this started. Obviously
Turkey has been opposed to the Kurdish freedom movement since
its inception, right since the very beginning and in the
last century. But preps, you could explain like this series
of ongoing Turkish aggressions against what's happening in Java now
and like how that began and how that's manifested itself
(10:46):
over the years.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Oh yes, like after ISOs was defeated to some degree,
actually Turkey for self started occupation attacks like and twenty
eighteen nineteen and started the occupation was first against Afrine
and then against tel Khania and Guido Speir, which are
(11:09):
all like very important regions of Bova that are like
directly next to the Turkish border, like you see, like
directly in between Syria and the Turkey like next to
the Turkish borders. So they directly attacked these cities next
(11:30):
to the border, which actually most of our cities are
directly next to the border, and they occupied them. Yeah,
I think that's important to understand like a little bit
because actually there are took plans to occupy, occupy like
the region along the border, not only the cities that
(11:52):
they occupied. Until now, this is a very very violent
war with using aircraft and so on. Like in the
last years, uh Tooki very much invested in two drone
technology and so on, and they used also chemical weapons
like very famous in two nineteen the video of a
(12:16):
young child the name Mohammad went around the world that
like was like born by phosphorus in Secania in the
occupation attack. So like actually it's a like a war
that is smallest sleep fought also with the most like
gutty yeah methods that took his waging around the region.
(12:39):
And after this, like we can't say like after Secane
was occupied, Tooki actually continued to attack with a war
that you cannot say like at this time it starts
and in this time and it's more like continuous attacks.
So on the one hand, like some areas are always
(13:01):
getting bombed in the last years, like for examples like
artillery shelling and one like a share bar next to
Arthleene or iron Eesa or the tam so like the
areas that are close to the occupied areas were now
Turkey and mercenary forces are stations that constantly attacked more
(13:23):
or less the regions, but also with a drone war
like the first I think, very like clear example of
what was the strategy like in the last years was
on the twenty third June two down twenty when Turkey
killed three women of conguers the women's movement, like the
(13:47):
civil women's movement in Kobani in the village, which were
all like two of them were like in the leadership
of the women's movement and one was just like a
man well, and they were sitting in the garden and
they were talking and at this time like a Turk
a shtrongest strike and they all lost their lives. So
(14:12):
like a lot of these kinds of attacks happened after this,
like against like let's say, like civil leaders of society,
like politicians, normal people. Also like on the twenty fifth
of December, actually also on Christmas in twenty twenty one,
(14:35):
five five chill like young people like youth from the
youth movement were killed in Kobani also like they're just
when they were sitting in the garden like members of
the Youth center, like I took a stone stock three
of them like a young girls and this continued or
(14:58):
also we can say like leaders of Fox suble Ypja.
Also like on the twenty second of July last year,
there was a conference happening for celebrating ten years of
women's revolution in Rojaha, and just on the same day,
(15:19):
Turkey targeted the car of the Rye PJ members. One
of them was Jian Toldan, who also spoke on the
same day on the conference. Actually it's quite clear what
Turki actually once they want to like destroy the revolution
(15:39):
that's happening in Rushava, like the women's revolution and in general,
like this change that is happening. They want to create
like the sphere to stay away to way to the
Turkish occupation forces. And they're using a lot of violence.
Like also in the occupied areas, like the people are
right now, I think that I cannot speak their language.
(16:03):
They have to fear. Sometimes they cannot close the house doors.
Sometimes people get like abductor like without anyone knowing why
or where's they go as I go to the persons
that be in a prison or would I be fortshot
or like a very kind of oppressive region. Yeah, now
(16:25):
in the occupied areas.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, and those are people who like I've met when
when they come here, right, people who have lost Like
I spoke to a guy, a mayor a couple of
weeks ago. You know, his father had been killed, his
uncle had been killed, and like he was like what
should he should? I should I wait to be like
the last person in my family and then who gets
killed or like it's it's very the conditions for those
(16:51):
people in the Turkish occupied parts of northern Kurdistan are very,
very difficult and oppressive. And I think, like, just to
build off what you said, like, it's important that people
realize that these killing of especially like people in the
Women's Revolution, but also you know, people in in the
(17:12):
Rajava revolution. More generally, it's not Drone strikes are extremely targeted, right,
Like they can follow a car from an event and
strike it. Like it's these kind of these things are
not it's not like they're it's not like artillery or mortars.
It's not like you're just sending it into an area.
(17:32):
Like they're extremely targeted to an individual or a group
of individuals rather than you know, random attack. So like
this is a distinct choice that's being made. Well, let's
(17:53):
talk about the most recent bombings because I think there
were some particularly egregious ones, even by the standard of
this campaign, which has been pretty egradition in the beginning.
But December, around the week of Christmas this year, just
to give people a time to the period, there was
a bombings of a if I'm not wrong, a printing press,
(18:17):
a dialysis facility, is that right?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah? Yeah, we actually there was. There was also another
like not hospital, like the hospital, let's say like a
medical point. Also Corbani where doctors was out borders. I
think it's like kind of a known and Jose they
were also working there at the oxygen center also, so
like medical places, there were like normal factories of of
(18:42):
food production like you said the printing house. There were
many places like this, like of daily infrastructure that were
targeted like before, already in October infrastructure was targeted. And
also last year there was attack Disis and every time
at least ten civilians got killed, like in all of
(19:03):
these attacks. So now I think the overall number just
of these three ways of attacks is already like search
one killed civilians, so like maybe dawn strike are very targeted,
but it's not like Turki doesn't want to kill civilians
or takes care not to kill civilians, like already in
the attacks of last year, there was an examples of
(19:25):
double tap attacks for example, which I actually be illegal.
So I think it's very important to say, like also
the targeting of medical points of medical infrastructure, that what
Turkey is doing is not according to international law, Like
that's not the case, Like Turki is kind of acting
(19:46):
like however advanced targeting civilians, creating like fear and also
like in a region that is already poor, Johnny, you
have to say, like the possibilities that have been created,
like like for daily needs and so on, for supplies
of electricity of like heating fuels and so on for
(20:12):
your house, they are very affected like this right now,
so like in general, there's like a big shortcoming of
everything right now and whatever, and just because of these attacks.
So this is actually affecting everyone. And on the other hand,
took it to try to create like this feel like
there's just some wave of attack and just targeting everywhere,
(20:34):
so they want to displace actually the population and also
to commit like the politics also to state, especially against
Scwritish people and also against the Christians, is very much
like potentially like genocidal politics, like it's not not like
(20:55):
a limited attack or something like this, Like we don't
think so.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, no, it's not a And like you said, they're
very very much unafraid of killing civilians in the process.
Like I spoke to a mother whose fifteen year old
son was killed in a drone strike. I don't think
it's very hard to make an argument the fifteen year
old son was doing anything apart from being a fifteen
year old kid. You know, it's not like this person
is a legitimate military target. It was a kid who
(21:21):
played goalkeeper on his local football team. And these double
tap attacks, Like if people aren't familiar with the double
tap attack, it's when an attack happened, people go to
the site of the attack to render aid, right an
ambulance or baptis bystanders rendering aid or other military personnel
rendering aid, and then a second attack happened at the
(21:42):
same place to then attack the people who are rendering aid.
So you spoke a little bit about like how they're
trying to attack the whole project and not just individuals.
I wonder like the drone strikes do have like a
they change the way they have to be done right,
like it's it's things become unsafe, like any way you
(22:06):
can see the sky, right, like having a large gathering,
or certainly for people who are of more like higher status,
it's it's dangerous for them to be out and about,
right Is that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah? I mean on some level, for sure the dangerous.
But on the other hand, you cannot always be afraid.
Like that's like really the reality. Like for example, now,
because these places were targeted, for example, the infrastructure that
you need for your life, people actually started to stand
like next to the electricity center to say, like, if
(22:46):
we're all here, then they cannot target it. Wow, for
sure is dangerous as you see, like the they can they.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, because they've killed a lot of civilians. As you say,
that's a very brain yes, yeah, and again I think
I think maybe we should explain actually so that it
gets very cold in this part of the world in
the winter, because perhaps people will associate this part of
the world with like the heat and hot chambers. But
like you, you have very cold winters, especially in the mountains.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Right, Yeah, I mean it's like all more or less flat,
like it's not so cold, but still it gets like
under zero degrees, like for sure, you needs the need
like your house to be warm and so on, like
just to take care of basic needs. You need your
(23:38):
car to drive somewhere maybe sometimes at least like some
people need it for their work or like this. There's
a lot of basic needs that don't work if if
all the infrastructure gets stored.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah. Yeah, And I believe if I'm right in saying,
this's the one person already passed away because it couldn't
get directs the dialysis center that was bombed, Is that right.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yes, So as I said that one passed away, afterwards
they brought like a like emergency wise dialogs machine, yeah,
which I think is very good for the sick people.
But I'm not sure because also if you don't have
like a substitute of something happens like only one machine,
I'm not sure like how much it will actually take
(24:24):
care of the needs of people. Because I said it
was like seventy or eighty six people who were going
to the center, so it's not.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
You yeah, and like I didn't think, Yeah, I mean,
it's certainly not as good as having a proper center, right, Like,
and there's no reason there's no world in which a
dialysis center is a legitimate target or printing press, right,
Like I think that that maybe points to what you're saying,
like if you're printing books about something, sharing knowledge about something,
(24:55):
and like perhaps one thing I think you were saying,
is it right that it to textbooks.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I think it was like also printing textbook, Okay, like
it was printing everything, so it's also printing textbooks. Yes,
like also was printing textbook.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, And we should point out that, like, you know,
I speak to Kurdish people almost every day when I'm
at the border, and they many of them don't read
and write in Kurdish because in Turkey that's not taught
in schools, right, they don't have a chance to learn,
and and so like having those textbooks, having that knowledge,
like lots of my lots of my friends were saying that,
(25:34):
like the children because because folks who went to school
before the revolution went to school in Arabic, So like
the children are the ones who have like the formal
education in Kurdish, you know, and that they're building a
generation that like speaks Kurdish and reads and writes Kurdish
is their first language. And so like an attempt to
destroy that isn't just destroying the factory, right is that
(25:57):
fair to say that it's also destroying like that goal
of the revolution are more broadly like that attempt to
like to have that education in Kurdish and let children
speak their own language in school.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yes, I mean this is also part of like ustermination politics,
who deny people their own language, which actually likes Asyrian regime.
Also that like the only thought in Arabic and now
for example, the system of the self administration lows everyone
to learn and different languages. Likeno, there's Arabic, there's Kurdish,
and even in the very last times are hearts that
(26:33):
there will also be opened Ausyrian again, which is actually
really important because it's like a language that is like
very like most Assyrian people right now speaker and write Arabic,
though it could be really important.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Also yeah, yeah, and it's it's I think it's really
important to point out for people who aren't aware. And
often in the US media, like Rochio is reported as
like Kurdish, like a Kurdish area, but it may have
a majority of court in some cities. But like, yeah,
there are Assyrian people, there are Arab people that are
Armenian people, and like they have that same autonomy right
(27:09):
to educate in their own language and to like organizing
their own communities.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yes, that's what the idea is all about. And I
think actually like resources in the last time, that was
kind of trying to create this image of like Perds
against Arabs, like from the outside in the international media,
which is absolutely not true. Like the SDS itself is
like majorly Arabic force. It's not majorly Purish, like if
(27:37):
you see numbers I think at least, so it's like
very equal, like everyone who plays a role in US
and who wants to participate can participate, and everyone has
a like autonomy also to organize inside of their own
society or may it be religion or and which like
also Yazdi people like Kurdish people who are Yazdi religion,
(28:00):
they also have their own organization here in Yeah, well
that's very important, and.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Their own movement in their own area right the year
Bisho in that in that part of Iraq. Like that's
like I guess an allied movement, would that'd be fair
to say?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah, I mean very much like follows the same idea
and the same concept as.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yes, and yeah, I've also spoken to az people who
have come to the United States recently and like, yeah,
they under the under they had absolutely like inhumane and
terrible conditions, and if it wasn't for the gay then
(28:46):
they like they wouldn't be there. The the you know,
the they the beginning of the their liberation I guess
came from the gay and something we'll maybe talk about
another time. It's a long story. I wonder, Yeah, like,
obviously this isn't something that has been in the news
(29:08):
as much because people have been so focused on Palestine.
I wonder if it's worth discussing, like the Turkish States
completely like like two phased approach, right, like on one
hand they're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
We have to.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Like, yeah, it's unacceptable for the bombing of civilians in
Palestine and like this is completely wrong, and then on
the other hand that they're doing the same thing right
like just on their other border.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah, so I'm thinking we have to anyway, says like
Turky is not doing anything good for the Palestinian people,
Tuki is leading Hamas to such an attack, like supporting
Hamas and just like very violent attacks that I made,
which then was like the preset for the war of
(29:56):
Israel and international forces against the Palestinian people. So actually
who is like suffering from all of this, it's like
the normal people, like which is for Israel and Palestine.
So actually we have to say, like what Chuki is
doing is against the people, like it's also against the
(30:17):
Palestinian people. And here like they have criticized to clearly,
for example, Israel is saying like saying Isa is making
occupation politics and so on. Still Zuki also has ties
with Israel. We also have to say, but like they
are themselves occupying parts of Java in the shadow of
(30:40):
these attacks that like all the attention of the world
was going uh into this region. They attacked like also
calculating that maybe people will not so much look to
right now, like at the same time, there's like another
huge war going on in the Middle East, and they
(31:03):
are making like very clearly like politics of occupation in
Aftene and Silkanya and also democratic demographic change. So they
are like displacing people and placing other people.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, that's very Yeah, well displacing whom and and placing whom,
because I think that's important when we talk about like
that that population and demographic change, like because there's it's
not they're not just displacing people randomly and replacing them randomly.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Right, Yeah, so actually the people that are targeted the
most are like the Kurdish people in the areas or
other people that are like not aligned to the state,
and then who they place like mostly was like you
see that all the mercenary forces that are actually aligned
(31:56):
to Turkey or like outside forces already, like they're like
they are not isis, but they are a little bit
similar to it. They are like mercenary groups that are
like more or less like what road they go. It's
they're clarified from outside the forces, so they are aligned
(32:17):
to Turkey and from these people for example, they're families
who are placed in the region on the one hand.
On the other hand, they were even examples were Turkey
started to place some Palestinian people also in this region
or like different like they just do they think they
can align to Turkey as a state and doing under
(32:41):
their control. They were placing in these areas that say
it like this, like to be able to actually what
is the part of Bolvar a part of Syria, to
occupy it long term, like to make this last. It's
not like a short term plant, like they want to
stay in this area, that it's not prevented if it's
(33:04):
not liberated again.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah yeah, And I think like again, like people that
I think have become more aware in recent months, people
are becoming educated on a situation in Palestine settlements. And
it's not the fault of the people are Palestine that
they're being like forced to be driven off their ancestral homelands.
But like what it does mean is that like they
(33:27):
could be mobilized by someone like Turkey right to just
do an occupation to to do it, I guess demographic
transfer somewhere else, and like that's not a that's not
like a desirable outcome. We spoke a little bit about
(33:51):
like this like ongoing hostility here and it can seem
for people out look, I think people only hear about
in negative and not negative terms is the wrong thing.
But like they only it only ever enters the American
press these days. When something happens right, either an isis
attack something one of the cat like a Hall or
(34:13):
a ROJR. But like, also things are continuing to progress, right,
It's not just a place that is in battled and
fighting to survive. Like I know, recently a new social
contract was passed for instance, So maybe you could explain
a little bit about the progress is still being made
despite this this ongoing like air war during war and
(34:34):
land war.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, so actually I think we always follow this philosophy
that we are not like sitting here and saying our
war will come towards us or like it will not
be like we are very much helpful and we're always
working to develop. Like even if these things are happening,
if these attacks are happening, the solution very very much
(34:57):
developed and the society changed a lot already, a lot
of institutions have been built up that before we're not
existing and so on. And as an outcome also of this,
the new social contract was formed, which actually is like
a very democratic process. Like let's say if the state force,
(35:18):
for example, has the constitution, the state less the self
administration has a social contract which actually is made by
the people because until it was made, there was the
years of discussion, like there were so many meetings, like
all of the political representatives from the smallest to the
(35:38):
biggest level, they were all part of the discussion, and
also the people themselves they could take part in the discussion.
So now this is for example, ensuring a lot of
important decisions and now, like the struggle that is before us,
like that we are facing now is to implement social contract,
(36:00):
which is very important. It's also guaranteeing a lot of
pogus for women, it's guaranteeing a lot of focus for society.
So I think still now like it's a task to
like see how how it can be implemented in all
areas because it's always like a very lively process, like
(36:23):
it always needs the daily struggle, the daily work creating
like everything from new So there's a lot going on.
Actually here we can say.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, definitely and like it definitely, like it doesn't I
think it's easy, Like again, if we only report on
this thing when bad things are happening, like to think
that it's only better. And there's a lot like people
are still hopeful, I think, and hopeful for creating and
spreading like this better future for themselves and the children
and for the region, which I think is it's really admirable.
(36:59):
One thing I thought was really amiable is people will
probably have seen it, but like if they don't like
follow social media so much. The exchange of statements of
solidarity between the K and d F, the Cronian National
Defense Force Battalion five specifically in Myanmar and the YPG
and YPG in and they've gone back and forth, right,
(37:24):
But can you explain a little bit about Obviously I
know that the situation in Mema is very complicated. I
know I've spent years of my life learning about it.
But can you explain like the importance of that solidarity
and like also perhaps like it's not it was a
risk right for everyone to gather like this in in
the middle of the drone war to make the statement,
(37:46):
but can you explain like why that solidarity with something
they felt was so important.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, I think in Jel it's very important to say,
like the revolution, it's not like avolution for the people
of visual itself. It has like a perspective more general,
like to strengthen the friendship of democratic movements anywhere in
the world. So for sure, there's a lot of colors
(38:15):
of movements, a lot of different situations in the world.
And some might also like let's say, see the solidarity
very strong because actually they are also like Miama, like
also facing for example, state system which is very much
influenced by fascism. Like for some we are facing the
(38:36):
Turkey or like in general, this kind of oppression and
trying to liberate from it. So actually we're always trying
to have like this exchange in general in the world
and to have like also to build like how let's say,
like quality, quality relationships, quality friendships with all kinds of
(38:59):
demo quatic movement. For sure, every everyone is acting on
a different level and so on. But this is like
a big something really really important for us in general.
And I mean, like in the revolution, there were also
always people from the outside, for example, participating in it,
so there was always kind of the spirit that this
(39:20):
is sex the revolution for the word, like the Kurdish
movement in general has sex's character, like an internationalist character,
so it's not something like, uh, let's say, like far
from from us, like it's already something like very close
to us to say, like we stand in solidarity also
(39:43):
with other liberation movements.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, I think it was very it was. I know
it's very much appreciated in them, because lots lots of
people from there have reached out to tell me how
how much they appreciated it. And like I think some
of them have been in the revolution for seventy years
and their world has not paid attention to them, so
they really appreciated that. And that's that solidarity. And like
(40:09):
I know that the solidarity runs a lot deeper than statements,
but like we will cover that they extended that solidarity
in another episode, because again I think it it merits.
It's a in recording. I wonder a better van what
Obviously people will be listening, right, and I think a
lot of people will be very supportive of the revolution
(40:31):
in Reja, and they want to help it and see
it succeed, and certainly not to see No one wants
to see civilians dying in drone strikes, right, no one
wants to see anyone drying in drone strikes. But how
can they if they are in the US or in
Europe or elsewhere in the world but not in how
(40:52):
can they help? How can they support the revolution through
its like difficult, through these difficult moments when people don't
have electricity to hit their homes in the winter and things.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of possibilities like sits
coming here, which also is the point. But I mean
in general, like you have all of this these possibilities,
like from educating yourself, what is the distribution actually about
understanding it from spreading its ideas, which is maybe the
(41:27):
most important task. May it be like spreading knowledge about
the spreading knowledge also about the attacks that are happening,
clarifying what is happening and why it's happening. To read
about political backgrounds or sort of international politics. That's very
important for the senus. And also you can always like
share for example, let's say you have social media, let's
(41:48):
tell you're part of the political movement or something. You
can discuss about it. You can inform yourself about it.
You can make a presentation about it in your university.
Like there are so many things that you can do,
Like you can read the book about it and make
the book presentation. Like there's a million things a person
can do. Well as you're doing, you can connect to
(42:11):
the Kurdish refugees or to the society Kurdish people in
the diaspora in general, like outside of Curtis, somewherever you
might be. Yeah, that's possibility. Also, like you can organize solidarity,
also practical solidarity. Also, like let's say, like intellection works,
(42:31):
like write a text there, discuss about it. Like maybe
it's difficult in the beginning to understand some things or
to gain information. But right now there's actually a lot
of information also available in English language.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I think, Yeah, you can read for about a year
and non stuff I think, and still not not have
read all of it. But are there books You've recommended
a couple of books to me which I think have
been really good, and I've shared with my friends and
Meanmma and I know that they've enjoyed. Are there any
books that you'd recommend to listeners.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
I mean and Jina, Like this revolution is based on
the thoughts of abdul so I think a good idea
if you actually want to understand, like the ideological basis
of it about women's liberations, about how democratic society can
be organized. So actually there's like this book called of
(43:29):
him Sociology of Freedom. I think it's very important, and
so that's a bit like understandable. I think for someone
who comes maybe from academic or from a lessis or
from a democratic background, I think they will read it,
they will be able to understand it. But there are
also many other books that are translated to English or
like texts that are available, or in general there are
(43:51):
books about the revolution from people for example, coming from
the outside. I have to think right now in English.
I'm sorry. I know there are some also some in
the different languages about the Woman's revolution. Mm hmmm, so
I have to think with a yable. I think that's
also like there's one called like the Politics of Freedom
(44:14):
or something. And there are some books that were published
because they were like the diplomatic conferences in most of them,
I think happening in Europe, which they were like some
like collections of philosophical discussion, uh like published, So I
(44:35):
think that's also very available. But I'm sorry I have
exact tight.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, I know, there's a good book called Revolution in
Rouchev which was translated from German that like, I think
it lays out like that how things happen. It's a
little bit a little bit dated now. I think it
was published in like twenty sixteen, so you know, things
have changed a few years. But I think that's a
(45:01):
decent book for people who are interested as well, that
I know a lot of people have recommended. Yeah, And
then I wonder, like, because this isn't being like I know,
you made the point earlier about that the world was
looking at Palestine when the taxi Palestine happened. I was
in Camischlow in Roosevelt, and like, it's impossible for me
(45:21):
to sell stories. It's impossible for me to sell anything
to like big news outlets so that they simply like,
don't think American people can care about two parts to
the world at once. I guess I wonder where people
can follow and get updates, Like it's a good social
media or news outlets that you woulduggest for people who
do want to keep in touch with what's happening.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
Yeah, I mean we have like a Facebook place as
Wipe Day information on Documentation Office like YPJ information. But
also there's like other places like the Information Center, which
is very much like like independently accriminating like knowledge and
(46:08):
sharing in a way that I think is understandable for everyone.
Like there's also from the SDI forces a press center
which just has like also an English homepage is sharing
like sometimes statements and concrete information. There's an Internationalist Commune
of sharing an English language, a lot of information on
(46:28):
Twitter and on the homepage. So there's actually a lot
of sources if you go and look forward, that are
very good. I think.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Also yes, and like underground people who can show you
what's happening, And yeah, I think I think that's wonderful
that anything else you'd like us to get to before
we finish up, anything else you want people to know.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
No, I think it's very important to say again that
it's like very very valuable for the revolutional for people
to take part in actions to makes a voice, hard
to organize, to make the solution known, to get it
to know for themselves, and that it does actually make
a very very huge difference like the struggle that people
(47:12):
everyone in the world are making for the solution and
that it needs it. That like it's very like critical
for those of a revolution that everyone's world it gets
known and gets like solidarity that received this are very meaningful.
I think that's very important to understand. Besides this, I
(47:32):
don't know, I hope, yes, that's I think.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah, I think it's really good to realize that it's
it's not a it's you know, it's a very worthwhile
thing to do just to increase people's awareness and solidarity.
And thank you so much your time. I know Internet
it's not the easiest thing to come by where you are,
so thank you so much better Van for taking the
time to talk to us today.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Thank you also for talking about the topic. I was
very happy to join.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Its great Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
For more podcasts from.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or
check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for
It could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com
slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Also media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello everyone, it's me today James, and I'm joined by
Benevan from the YPJ Information Authors, and we're going to
discuss today and chiefly that the Turkish bombing campaign against
it which has been happening in the last few weeks
and the last few months and the last few years.
So we wanted to set that in context for you.
(00:27):
And everyone's attention has been very much focused on other conflicts,
but that doesn't mean that this one isn't important, and
it's one that obviously listeners will be familiar with, so
we wanted to bring you an update on that. Welcome,
very vun Hello, thank you, Yeah, you're welcome.
Speaker 3 (00:43):
Okay, happy to be here today. Good.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Let's start by, I think, just in case people need
a refresher or they haven't listened to some of the
other stuff, talk about what's happening in and why they
I guess why. It's why it's unique and what makes
it special.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Okay, So, actually right now in Java, for more than
ten years there's a revolution happening. I think most people
heard that. For some twenty eleven and so on, there
was like something called the Arab string. But actually in
the same time in this region in northern east Syria
actually also called like in the northern eastern part of Syria,
(01:27):
there's a region called Java, which is like a big
part of Kurtish population. There's also Christian population like Assyria,
and Arminian population and also Arab population. Like it's a
very colorful region, you can say. So in this region
twenty eleven, in this time and then twenty twelve, a
(01:49):
revolution started, which is actually based on a long term
struggle of the Kurdish movement and its experiences. And the
revolution was like mostly based on the idea to gain
democratic autonomy and today gain like democratic self administration. Why
(02:11):
because like the Syrian regime on the one hand was
like very oppressive towards the Kurdish people and on the
other hand, like it was like out topered Parian regime.
So there was like this wish to create something different,
which was actually created here in the region in Java. Yeah,
(02:34):
so I think this we can say at first, like
what happened was that relusion started and until today it's continuing.
Like it's a very like basic change of people's life.
We can say that happened here like democratic administration in
all areas of life, and also like, for example, a
(02:54):
great deal of a women's organization to achieve also women's
So the solutions like based on these principles of democratic
self administration, of women's freedom, and also of ecologies.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Yeah, perhaps you can explain people who aren't familiar a
little bit more about the women's revolution, because I think
that is something that that's extremely unique and that people
might not have like if they've heard of it, perhaps
they haven't really you know, I think the mainstream press
doesn't covered particularly well. So if you could explain, like
maybe something about the co chair system or the relationship
(03:32):
between yourselves and the yepigae and how that works.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
Yeah. So actually I was just something like speaking about
the like when the revolution was happening, so I from
beginning online women also took place in it, like which
was already occasion the code of freedom movement in general,
is like that woman was like equally were equally taking
part in it and also always founded their own organizations,
(03:58):
like not like substitute to a general organization or something
like this, but actually like their own organization that at
the same time cooperate with the general organization. So there
was already this principle of women's autonomy. So this was
also adopted in Rehervoir. So in all areas which also
(04:19):
includes like political areas, areas of daily life, but also
military fields, women organized. So actually in the beginning of
the solution, they were like the society's kind of self
defense forces building us and in the beginning there were
already women in it. And then there was also the
(04:42):
foundation of hitep Gay like the people's Defense forces. But
after this also the White Pgay women's Protection units were founded.
So actually it's like a fully autonomous women's units that
take care of defending their homeland on the one hand,
(05:06):
but on the other hand, also made like a great
deal of change in the society in the daily life
of women because in the region that was before like
maybe to somebody like feudal or like because of the
authoria tennestry in the state, like there was no protection
for women's rights or something like this, and for example,
(05:30):
there was like the traditions of marrying a woman at
a young age or something like this. This was actually
changed by this woman's polution, Like the everyday life of
women was a change and is still changing, like it's
still a struggle because it meets changing the society in general. Yeah,
(05:50):
so there's like in every area of life today there's
like autonomous women's organization and the existing which makes its
with the main the most like profound woman's solution that
on to now is happening, I think. So it's like
really important like samplers for a woman. Everyone in the.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
Work, Yeah, very much, and it is a genuinely profound change.
Having spent a little bit of time there earlier this year,
that it's very notable that you spent a lot of
time in that part of the world, how different things are.
And then perhaps we should talk about the battle against
the so called Samic state or dasher Isis or whatever
(06:31):
you want to call it. In the role that THEPGPJ
and SDF played in that, I can explain a little
about about that fight and the fighting that happened. And
also like the tremendous number of people who died fighting
or were martyred in the language it is used by
(06:51):
the revolution about them.
Speaker 3 (06:54):
So like, uh, in general, I think everyone in the
work for listen to the name of the White jas
Woman's Protection Units and the relationship to ISIS. But actually
from the beginning on they fought like against this kind
of let's say like different like fundamentalists or mercenary groups
(07:16):
that were existing in the region, and when Isis was
coming up, Like the biggest almost known battle that actually
the world for the first time really saw was the
Battle for Kobanis where for example, the hypj with like
(07:38):
very very limited possibilities and the fought against the Isis
and actually succeeded like to defeat iss and to defend
the city of Kobani, which was kind of like a
breaking point where things started to turn around. Or we
have also had the point where forks are the Shanngha
(08:01):
was attacked, which is like in south post de Son,
it's not like in the era region, it's not even
in the same region. But the YPA also played like
the role in opening a corridor for the people who
tried to flee for the Yuzd people who like are
people who have faced like many genocides in history, and
(08:23):
in order to save them from the genocide of Isis,
the RPJA opened a corridor to help them to flee.
So and there are like many stories or like in
the end, the liberation of the city of Racca, which
was kind of known like as the center of the ISIS,
(08:44):
which also we can say like the Women's Force played
like a junior rein God this. So there are many
examples where we can say, like how deciding for examples
as of the Vibea was for the defeat of ISIS.
And I think on the other hand, we also have
(09:06):
to say that it is not completely defeated, because it
seemed like some support from outside structures, like from Turkey,
so there are still some like sales or form. There
are a lot of details detainees like before that was
happening at a try to break out from the detention
(09:29):
centers in twenty twenty two, So it's not like it's
completely vanished from the earth, but the actual defeat was
like reached by the JAP.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
For Yeah, I think it's very important too. Like you
spoke about those like incarcerated ice form RIIS fighters right
and their attempt to break out. I think that's maybe
a good chance for us to talk about like some
other former risis fighters and like guarding in I think
(10:01):
it was called Turkey called Operation peace Spring. I think right,
like the these these Turkish incursions into uh into into Rojaba,
into like and and into like Syrian territory, can you
explain a little bit about like how I guess this
will get us to the modern day and and the bombing,
(10:23):
but like perhaps you can explain how this started. Obviously
Turkey has been opposed to the Kurdish freedom movement since
its inception, right since the very beginning and in the
last century. But preps, you could explain like this series
of ongoing Turkish aggressions against what's happening in Java now
and like how that began and how that's manifested itself
(10:46):
over the years.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Oh yes, like after ISOs was defeated to some degree,
actually Turkey for self started occupation attacks like and twenty
eighteen nineteen and started the occupation was first against Afrine
and then against tel Khania and Guido Speir, which are
(11:09):
all like very important regions of Bova that are like
directly next to the Turkish border, like you see, like
directly in between Syria and the Turkey like next to
the Turkish borders. So they directly attacked these cities next
(11:30):
to the border, which actually most of our cities are
directly next to the border, and they occupied them. Yeah,
I think that's important to understand like a little bit
because actually there are took plans to occupy, occupy like
the region along the border, not only the cities that
(11:52):
they occupied. Until now, this is a very very violent
war with using aircraft and so on. Like in the
last years, uh Tooki very much invested in two drone
technology and so on, and they used also chemical weapons
like very famous in two nineteen the video of a
(12:16):
young child the name Mohammad went around the world that
like was like born by phosphorus in Secania in the
occupation attack. So like actually it's a like a war
that is smallest sleep fought also with the most like
gutty yeah methods that took his waging around the region.
(12:39):
And after this, like we can't say like after Secane
was occupied, Tooki actually continued to attack with a war
that you cannot say like at this time it starts
and in this time and it's more like continuous attacks.
So on the one hand, like some areas are always
(13:01):
getting bombed in the last years, like for examples like
artillery shelling and one like a share bar next to
Arthleene or iron Eesa or the tam so like the
areas that are close to the occupied areas were now
Turkey and mercenary forces are stations that constantly attacked more
(13:23):
or less the regions, but also with a drone war
like the first I think, very like clear example of
what was the strategy like in the last years was
on the twenty third June two down twenty when Turkey
killed three women of conguers the women's movement, like the
(13:47):
civil women's movement in Kobani in the village, which were
all like two of them were like in the leadership
of the women's movement and one was just like a
man well, and they were sitting in the garden and
they were talking and at this time like a Turk
a shtrongest strike and they all lost their lives. So
(14:12):
like a lot of these kinds of attacks happened after this,
like against like let's say, like civil leaders of society,
like politicians, normal people. Also like on the twenty fifth
of December, actually also on Christmas in twenty twenty one,
(14:35):
five five chill like young people like youth from the
youth movement were killed in Kobani also like they're just
when they were sitting in the garden like members of
the Youth center, like I took a stone stock three
of them like a young girls and this continued or
(14:58):
also we can say like leaders of Fox suble Ypja.
Also like on the twenty second of July last year,
there was a conference happening for celebrating ten years of
women's revolution in Rojaha, and just on the same day,
(15:19):
Turkey targeted the car of the Rye PJ members. One
of them was Jian Toldan, who also spoke on the
same day on the conference. Actually it's quite clear what
Turki actually once they want to like destroy the revolution
(15:39):
that's happening in Rushava, like the women's revolution and in general,
like this change that is happening. They want to create
like the sphere to stay away to way to the
Turkish occupation forces. And they're using a lot of violence.
Like also in the occupied areas, like the people are
right now, I think that I cannot speak their language.
(16:03):
They have to fear. Sometimes they cannot close the house doors.
Sometimes people get like abductor like without anyone knowing why
or where's they go as I go to the persons
that be in a prison or would I be fortshot
or like a very kind of oppressive region. Yeah, now
(16:25):
in the occupied areas.
Speaker 2 (16:27):
Yeah, and those are people who like I've met when
when they come here, right, people who have lost Like
I spoke to a guy, a mayor a couple of
weeks ago. You know, his father had been killed, his
uncle had been killed, and like he was like what
should he should? I should I wait to be like
the last person in my family and then who gets
killed or like it's it's very the conditions for those
(16:51):
people in the Turkish occupied parts of northern Kurdistan are very,
very difficult and oppressive. And I think, like, just to
build off what you said, like, it's important that people
realize that these killing of especially like people in the
Women's Revolution, but also you know, people in in the
(17:12):
Rajava revolution. More generally, it's not Drone strikes are extremely targeted, right,
Like they can follow a car from an event and
strike it. Like it's these kind of these things are
not it's not like they're it's not like artillery or mortars.
It's not like you're just sending it into an area.
(17:32):
Like they're extremely targeted to an individual or a group
of individuals rather than you know, random attack. So like
this is a distinct choice that's being made. Well, let's
(17:53):
talk about the most recent bombings because I think there
were some particularly egregious ones, even by the standard of
this campaign, which has been pretty egradition in the beginning.
But December, around the week of Christmas this year, just
to give people a time to the period, there was
a bombings of a if I'm not wrong, a printing press,
(18:17):
a dialysis facility, is that right?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
Yeah? Yeah, we actually there was. There was also another
like not hospital, like the hospital, let's say like a
medical point. Also Corbani where doctors was out borders. I
think it's like kind of a known and Jose they
were also working there at the oxygen center also, so
like medical places, there were like normal factories of of
(18:42):
food production like you said the printing house. There were
many places like this, like of daily infrastructure that were
targeted like before, already in October infrastructure was targeted. And
also last year there was attack Disis and every time
at least ten civilians got killed, like in all of
(19:03):
these attacks. So now I think the overall number just
of these three ways of attacks is already like search
one killed civilians, so like maybe dawn strike are very targeted,
but it's not like Turki doesn't want to kill civilians
or takes care not to kill civilians, like already in
the attacks of last year, there was an examples of
(19:25):
double tap attacks for example, which I actually be illegal.
So I think it's very important to say, like also
the targeting of medical points of medical infrastructure, that what
Turkey is doing is not according to international law, Like
that's not the case, Like Turki is kind of acting
(19:46):
like however advanced targeting civilians, creating like fear and also
like in a region that is already poor, Johnny, you
have to say, like the possibilities that have been created,
like like for daily needs and so on, for supplies
of electricity of like heating fuels and so on for
(20:12):
your house, they are very affected like this right now,
so like in general, there's like a big shortcoming of
everything right now and whatever, and just because of these attacks.
So this is actually affecting everyone. And on the other hand,
took it to try to create like this feel like
there's just some wave of attack and just targeting everywhere,
(20:34):
so they want to displace actually the population and also
to commit like the politics also to state, especially against
Scwritish people and also against the Christians, is very much
like potentially like genocidal politics, like it's not not like
(20:55):
a limited attack or something like this, Like we don't
think so.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
Yeah, no, it's not a And like you said, they're
very very much unafraid of killing civilians in the process.
Like I spoke to a mother whose fifteen year old
son was killed in a drone strike. I don't think
it's very hard to make an argument the fifteen year
old son was doing anything apart from being a fifteen
year old kid. You know, it's not like this person
is a legitimate military target. It was a kid who
(21:21):
played goalkeeper on his local football team. And these double
tap attacks, Like if people aren't familiar with the double
tap attack, it's when an attack happened, people go to
the site of the attack to render aid, right an
ambulance or baptis bystanders rendering aid or other military personnel
rendering aid, and then a second attack happened at the
(21:42):
same place to then attack the people who are rendering aid.
So you spoke a little bit about like how they're
trying to attack the whole project and not just individuals.
I wonder like the drone strikes do have like a
they change the way they have to be done right,
like it's it's things become unsafe, like any way you
(22:06):
can see the sky, right, like having a large gathering,
or certainly for people who are of more like higher status,
it's it's dangerous for them to be out and about,
right Is that fair to say?
Speaker 3 (22:23):
Yeah? I mean on some level, for sure the dangerous.
But on the other hand, you cannot always be afraid.
Like that's like really the reality. Like for example, now,
because these places were targeted, for example, the infrastructure that
you need for your life, people actually started to stand
like next to the electricity center to say, like, if
(22:46):
we're all here, then they cannot target it. Wow, for
sure is dangerous as you see, like the they can they.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Yeah, because they've killed a lot of civilians. As you say,
that's a very brain yes, yeah, and again I think
I think maybe we should explain actually so that it
gets very cold in this part of the world in
the winter, because perhaps people will associate this part of
the world with like the heat and hot chambers. But
like you, you have very cold winters, especially in the mountains.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Right, Yeah, I mean it's like all more or less flat,
like it's not so cold, but still it gets like
under zero degrees, like for sure, you needs the need
like your house to be warm and so on, like
just to take care of basic needs. You need your
(23:38):
car to drive somewhere maybe sometimes at least like some
people need it for their work or like this. There's
a lot of basic needs that don't work if if
all the infrastructure gets stored.
Speaker 2 (23:52):
Yeah. Yeah, And I believe if I'm right in saying,
this's the one person already passed away because it couldn't
get directs the dialysis center that was bombed, Is that right.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
Yes, So as I said that one passed away, afterwards
they brought like a like emergency wise dialogs machine, yeah,
which I think is very good for the sick people.
But I'm not sure because also if you don't have
like a substitute of something happens like only one machine,
I'm not sure like how much it will actually take
(24:24):
care of the needs of people. Because I said it
was like seventy or eighty six people who were going
to the center, so it's not.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
You yeah, and like I didn't think, Yeah, I mean,
it's certainly not as good as having a proper center, right, Like,
and there's no reason there's no world in which a
dialysis center is a legitimate target or printing press, right,
Like I think that that maybe points to what you're saying,
like if you're printing books about something, sharing knowledge about something,
(24:55):
and like perhaps one thing I think you were saying,
is it right that it to textbooks.
Speaker 3 (25:02):
I think it was like also printing textbook, Okay, like
it was printing everything, so it's also printing textbooks. Yes,
like also was printing textbook.
Speaker 2 (25:11):
Yeah, And we should point out that, like, you know,
I speak to Kurdish people almost every day when I'm
at the border, and they many of them don't read
and write in Kurdish because in Turkey that's not taught
in schools, right, they don't have a chance to learn,
and and so like having those textbooks, having that knowledge,
like lots of my lots of my friends were saying that,
(25:34):
like the children because because folks who went to school
before the revolution went to school in Arabic, So like
the children are the ones who have like the formal
education in Kurdish, you know, and that they're building a
generation that like speaks Kurdish and reads and writes Kurdish
is their first language. And so like an attempt to
destroy that isn't just destroying the factory, right is that
(25:57):
fair to say that it's also destroying like that goal
of the revolution are more broadly like that attempt to
like to have that education in Kurdish and let children
speak their own language in school.
Speaker 3 (26:10):
Yes, I mean this is also part of like ustermination politics,
who deny people their own language, which actually likes Asyrian regime.
Also that like the only thought in Arabic and now
for example, the system of the self administration lows everyone
to learn and different languages. Likeno, there's Arabic, there's Kurdish,
and even in the very last times are hearts that
(26:33):
there will also be opened Ausyrian again, which is actually
really important because it's like a language that is like
very like most Assyrian people right now speaker and write Arabic,
though it could be really important.
Speaker 2 (26:47):
Also yeah, yeah, and it's it's I think it's really
important to point out for people who aren't aware. And
often in the US media, like Rochio is reported as
like Kurdish, like a Kurdish area, but it may have
a majority of court in some cities. But like, yeah,
there are Assyrian people, there are Arab people that are
Armenian people, and like they have that same autonomy right
(27:09):
to educate in their own language and to like organizing
their own communities.
Speaker 3 (27:15):
Yes, that's what the idea is all about. And I
think actually like resources in the last time, that was
kind of trying to create this image of like Perds
against Arabs, like from the outside in the international media,
which is absolutely not true. Like the SDS itself is
like majorly Arabic force. It's not majorly Purish, like if
(27:37):
you see numbers I think at least, so it's like
very equal, like everyone who plays a role in US
and who wants to participate can participate, and everyone has
a like autonomy also to organize inside of their own
society or may it be religion or and which like
also Yazdi people like Kurdish people who are Yazdi religion,
(28:00):
they also have their own organization here in Yeah, well
that's very important, and.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Their own movement in their own area right the year
Bisho in that in that part of Iraq. Like that's
like I guess an allied movement, would that'd be fair
to say?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
Yeah, I mean very much like follows the same idea
and the same concept as.
Speaker 2 (28:26):
Yes, and yeah, I've also spoken to az people who
have come to the United States recently and like, yeah,
they under the under they had absolutely like inhumane and
terrible conditions, and if it wasn't for the gay then
(28:46):
they like they wouldn't be there. The the you know,
the they the beginning of the their liberation I guess
came from the gay and something we'll maybe talk about
another time. It's a long story. I wonder, Yeah, like,
obviously this isn't something that has been in the news
(29:08):
as much because people have been so focused on Palestine.
I wonder if it's worth discussing, like the Turkish States
completely like like two phased approach, right, like on one
hand they're saying.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
We have to.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Like, yeah, it's unacceptable for the bombing of civilians in
Palestine and like this is completely wrong, and then on
the other hand that they're doing the same thing right
like just on their other border.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
Yeah, so I'm thinking we have to anyway, says like
Turky is not doing anything good for the Palestinian people,
Tuki is leading Hamas to such an attack, like supporting
Hamas and just like very violent attacks that I made,
which then was like the preset for the war of
(29:56):
Israel and international forces against the Palestinian people. So actually
who is like suffering from all of this, it's like
the normal people, like which is for Israel and Palestine.
So actually we have to say, like what Chuki is
doing is against the people, like it's also against the
(30:17):
Palestinian people. And here like they have criticized to clearly,
for example, Israel is saying like saying Isa is making
occupation politics and so on. Still Zuki also has ties
with Israel. We also have to say, but like they
are themselves occupying parts of Java in the shadow of
(30:40):
these attacks that like all the attention of the world
was going uh into this region. They attacked like also
calculating that maybe people will not so much look to
right now, like at the same time, there's like another
huge war going on in the Middle East, and they
(31:03):
are making like very clearly like politics of occupation in
Aftene and Silkanya and also democratic demographic change. So they
are like displacing people and placing other people.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Yeah, that's very Yeah, well displacing whom and and placing whom,
because I think that's important when we talk about like
that that population and demographic change, like because there's it's
not they're not just displacing people randomly and replacing them randomly.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
Right, Yeah, so actually the people that are targeted the
most are like the Kurdish people in the areas or
other people that are like not aligned to the state,
and then who they place like mostly was like you
see that all the mercenary forces that are actually aligned
(31:56):
to Turkey or like outside forces already, like they're like
they are not isis, but they are a little bit
similar to it. They are like mercenary groups that are
like more or less like what road they go. It's
they're clarified from outside the forces, so they are aligned
(32:17):
to Turkey and from these people for example, they're families
who are placed in the region on the one hand.
On the other hand, they were even examples were Turkey
started to place some Palestinian people also in this region
or like different like they just do they think they
can align to Turkey as a state and doing under
(32:41):
their control. They were placing in these areas that say
it like this, like to be able to actually what
is the part of Bolvar a part of Syria, to
occupy it long term, like to make this last. It's
not like a short term plant, like they want to
stay in this area, that it's not prevented if it's
(33:04):
not liberated again.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
Yeah yeah, And I think like again, like people that
I think have become more aware in recent months, people
are becoming educated on a situation in Palestine settlements. And
it's not the fault of the people are Palestine that
they're being like forced to be driven off their ancestral homelands.
But like what it does mean is that like they
(33:27):
could be mobilized by someone like Turkey right to just
do an occupation to to do it, I guess demographic
transfer somewhere else, and like that's not a that's not
like a desirable outcome. We spoke a little bit about
(33:51):
like this like ongoing hostility here and it can seem
for people out look, I think people only hear about
in negative and not negative terms is the wrong thing.
But like they only it only ever enters the American
press these days. When something happens right, either an isis
attack something one of the cat like a Hall or
(34:13):
a ROJR. But like, also things are continuing to progress, right,
It's not just a place that is in battled and
fighting to survive. Like I know, recently a new social
contract was passed for instance, So maybe you could explain
a little bit about the progress is still being made
despite this this ongoing like air war during war and
(34:34):
land war.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
Yeah, so actually I think we always follow this philosophy
that we are not like sitting here and saying our
war will come towards us or like it will not
be like we are very much helpful and we're always
working to develop. Like even if these things are happening,
if these attacks are happening, the solution very very much
(34:57):
developed and the society changed a lot already, a lot
of institutions have been built up that before we're not
existing and so on. And as an outcome also of this,
the new social contract was formed, which actually is like
a very democratic process. Like let's say if the state force,
(35:18):
for example, has the constitution, the state less the self
administration has a social contract which actually is made by
the people because until it was made, there was the
years of discussion, like there were so many meetings, like
all of the political representatives from the smallest to the
(35:38):
biggest level, they were all part of the discussion, and
also the people themselves they could take part in the discussion.
So now this is for example, ensuring a lot of
important decisions and now, like the struggle that is before us,
like that we are facing now is to implement social contract,
(36:00):
which is very important. It's also guaranteeing a lot of
pogus for women, it's guaranteeing a lot of focus for society.
So I think still now like it's a task to
like see how how it can be implemented in all
areas because it's always like a very lively process, like
(36:23):
it always needs the daily struggle, the daily work creating
like everything from new So there's a lot going on.
Actually here we can say.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, definitely and like it definitely, like it doesn't I
think it's easy, Like again, if we only report on
this thing when bad things are happening, like to think
that it's only better. And there's a lot like people
are still hopeful, I think, and hopeful for creating and
spreading like this better future for themselves and the children
and for the region, which I think is it's really admirable.
(36:59):
One thing I thought was really amiable is people will
probably have seen it, but like if they don't like
follow social media so much. The exchange of statements of
solidarity between the K and d F, the Cronian National
Defense Force Battalion five specifically in Myanmar and the YPG
and YPG in and they've gone back and forth, right,
(37:24):
But can you explain a little bit about Obviously I
know that the situation in Mema is very complicated. I
know I've spent years of my life learning about it.
But can you explain like the importance of that solidarity
and like also perhaps like it's not it was a
risk right for everyone to gather like this in in
the middle of the drone war to make the statement,
(37:46):
but can you explain like why that solidarity with something
they felt was so important.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
Yeah, I think in Jel it's very important to say,
like the revolution, it's not like avolution for the people
of visual itself. It has like a perspective more general,
like to strengthen the friendship of democratic movements anywhere in
the world. So for sure, there's a lot of colors
(38:15):
of movements, a lot of different situations in the world.
And some might also like let's say, see the solidarity
very strong because actually they are also like Miama, like
also facing for example, state system which is very much
influenced by fascism. Like for some we are facing the
(38:36):
Turkey or like in general, this kind of oppression and
trying to liberate from it. So actually we're always trying
to have like this exchange in general in the world
and to have like also to build like how let's say,
like quality, quality relationships, quality friendships with all kinds of
(38:59):
demo quatic movement. For sure, every everyone is acting on
a different level and so on. But this is like
a big something really really important for us in general.
And I mean, like in the revolution, there were also
always people from the outside, for example, participating in it,
so there was always kind of the spirit that this
(39:20):
is sex the revolution for the word, like the Kurdish
movement in general has sex's character, like an internationalist character,
so it's not something like, uh, let's say, like far
from from us, like it's already something like very close
to us to say, like we stand in solidarity also
(39:43):
with other liberation movements.
Speaker 2 (39:47):
Yeah, I think it was very it was. I know
it's very much appreciated in them, because lots lots of
people from there have reached out to tell me how
how much they appreciated it. And like I think some
of them have been in the revolution for seventy years
and their world has not paid attention to them, so
they really appreciated that. And that's that solidarity. And like
(40:09):
I know that the solidarity runs a lot deeper than statements,
but like we will cover that they extended that solidarity
in another episode, because again I think it it merits.
It's a in recording. I wonder a better van what
Obviously people will be listening, right, and I think a
lot of people will be very supportive of the revolution
(40:31):
in Reja, and they want to help it and see
it succeed, and certainly not to see No one wants
to see civilians dying in drone strikes, right, no one
wants to see anyone drying in drone strikes. But how
can they if they are in the US or in
Europe or elsewhere in the world but not in how
(40:52):
can they help? How can they support the revolution through
its like difficult, through these difficult moments when people don't
have electricity to hit their homes in the winter and things.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
Yeah, I think there's a lot of possibilities like sits
coming here, which also is the point. But I mean
in general, like you have all of this these possibilities,
like from educating yourself, what is the distribution actually about
understanding it from spreading its ideas, which is maybe the
(41:27):
most important task. May it be like spreading knowledge about
the spreading knowledge also about the attacks that are happening,
clarifying what is happening and why it's happening. To read
about political backgrounds or sort of international politics. That's very
important for the senus. And also you can always like
share for example, let's say you have social media, let's
(41:48):
tell you're part of the political movement or something. You
can discuss about it. You can inform yourself about it.
You can make a presentation about it in your university.
Like there are so many things that you can do,
Like you can read the book about it and make
the book presentation. Like there's a million things a person
can do. Well as you're doing, you can connect to
(42:11):
the Kurdish refugees or to the society Kurdish people in
the diaspora in general, like outside of Curtis, somewherever you
might be. Yeah, that's possibility. Also, like you can organize solidarity,
also practical solidarity. Also, like let's say, like intellection works,
(42:31):
like write a text there, discuss about it. Like maybe
it's difficult in the beginning to understand some things or
to gain information. But right now there's actually a lot
of information also available in English language.
Speaker 2 (42:45):
I think, Yeah, you can read for about a year
and non stuff I think, and still not not have
read all of it. But are there books You've recommended
a couple of books to me which I think have
been really good, and I've shared with my friends and
Meanmma and I know that they've enjoyed. Are there any
books that you'd recommend to listeners.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
I mean and Jina, Like this revolution is based on
the thoughts of abdul so I think a good idea
if you actually want to understand, like the ideological basis
of it about women's liberations, about how democratic society can
be organized. So actually there's like this book called of
(43:29):
him Sociology of Freedom. I think it's very important, and
so that's a bit like understandable. I think for someone
who comes maybe from academic or from a lessis or
from a democratic background, I think they will read it,
they will be able to understand it. But there are
also many other books that are translated to English or
like texts that are available, or in general there are
(43:51):
books about the revolution from people for example, coming from
the outside. I have to think right now in English.
I'm sorry. I know there are some also some in
the different languages about the Woman's revolution. Mm hmmm, so
I have to think with a yable. I think that's
also like there's one called like the Politics of Freedom
(44:14):
or something. And there are some books that were published
because they were like the diplomatic conferences in most of them,
I think happening in Europe, which they were like some
like collections of philosophical discussion, uh like published, So I
(44:35):
think that's also very available. But I'm sorry I have
exact tight.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Yeah, I know, there's a good book called Revolution in
Rouchev which was translated from German that like, I think
it lays out like that how things happen. It's a
little bit a little bit dated now. I think it
was published in like twenty sixteen, so you know, things
have changed a few years. But I think that's a
(45:01):
decent book for people who are interested as well, that
I know a lot of people have recommended. Yeah, And
then I wonder, like, because this isn't being like I know,
you made the point earlier about that the world was
looking at Palestine when the taxi Palestine happened. I was
in Camischlow in Roosevelt, and like, it's impossible for me
(45:21):
to sell stories. It's impossible for me to sell anything
to like big news outlets so that they simply like,
don't think American people can care about two parts to
the world at once. I guess I wonder where people
can follow and get updates, Like it's a good social
media or news outlets that you woulduggest for people who
do want to keep in touch with what's happening.
Speaker 3 (45:44):
Yeah, I mean we have like a Facebook place as
Wipe Day information on Documentation Office like YPJ information. But
also there's like other places like the Information Center, which
is very much like like independently accriminating like knowledge and
(46:08):
sharing in a way that I think is understandable for everyone.
Like there's also from the SDI forces a press center
which just has like also an English homepage is sharing
like sometimes statements and concrete information. There's an Internationalist Commune
of sharing an English language, a lot of information on
(46:28):
Twitter and on the homepage. So there's actually a lot
of sources if you go and look forward, that are
very good. I think.
Speaker 2 (46:36):
Also yes, and like underground people who can show you
what's happening, And yeah, I think I think that's wonderful
that anything else you'd like us to get to before
we finish up, anything else you want people to know.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
No, I think it's very important to say again that
it's like very very valuable for the revolutional for people
to take part in actions to makes a voice, hard
to organize, to make the solution known, to get it
to know for themselves, and that it does actually make
a very very huge difference like the struggle that people
(47:12):
everyone in the world are making for the solution and
that it needs it. That like it's very like critical
for those of a revolution that everyone's world it gets
known and gets like solidarity that received this are very meaningful.
I think that's very important to understand. Besides this, I
(47:32):
don't know, I hope, yes, that's I think.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah, I think it's really good to realize that it's
it's not a it's you know, it's a very worthwhile
thing to do just to increase people's awareness and solidarity.
And thank you so much your time. I know Internet
it's not the easiest thing to come by where you are,
so thank you so much better Van for taking the
time to talk to us today.
Speaker 3 (47:54):
Thank you also for talking about the topic. I was
very happy to join.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
Its great Thanks so much.
Speaker 1 (48:06):
It could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 3 (48:09):
For more podcasts from.
Speaker 1 (48:10):
Cool Zone Media, visit our website coolzonemedia dot com or
check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for
It could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot com
slash sources. Thanks for listening.
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James Stout
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