March 17, 2025 • 43 mins
In an episode recorded before the agreement between the Syrian government and the SDF, James talks with Jenni Keasden (@jkeasden) about the situation in Rojava and the resistance at Tishrin Dam.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cause Media. Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's James today and I'm joined by Jenny Keston, who's
a writer, activist and someone who's been in and out
of Northeast Syria for a long time working with the
women's movement, and today we're going to be talking about
the situation in North and East Syria since the fall
of the Asad regime, some of the conflict that has
been happening in the resistance of the SDF.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome to the show, Jenny either. Yeah, first of all,
it's not sure having him really happy to be here. Yeah,
you're welcome, of course.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So I think if we start off, people have been
messaging me a lot of various platforms about the letter
that abdulah or Jerland wrote, and I don't want to
dress that in its entirety today because we've got something
coming up on that we're going to talk to some
people from the Freedom for Abdullah campaign, but I do
want to use it as a jumping off point because
(00:55):
I think it a has reminded people, as we spoke
about before the show, that not the Syria exists and
the SDF exists, which has been largely missing, and like
the legacy media reporting on Syria, but be like, there's
been atrocious reporting on what it means for the SDF,
even though there's a very clear answer to that. So
(01:16):
for people who have you been reading papers which either
just ignore the existence of the FDF entirely or speculate
as to what they're going to do when they've given
a very clear answer, could.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You explain to people like where this leaves the SDF.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, sure, no, So thanks for that, And yeah, I've
also been gay a lot of questions about chans later
and I'm really glad to hear that you guys are
going to do a program on it, because Western media
wants to divorce it in this way. It's very snazzy
and there's like bolts with the blue and something crazy
has happening. Really, it's unfortunately it has to actually be
(01:49):
talking about in a kind of more long term and
intelligent way that sets the context and like, yeah, puts
that and makes things a bit more clear because it
is something with the background and it's connected to a
lot of things, and of course that whole political process
that Johan's recent statement is a part of, it's going
to affect the situation here in northern East Siria, because
(02:10):
the situation here a lot of the time depends on
the actions of the Turkish state and on expansionism an
aggression from there, and so as the political situation shouldn't changes,
it will affect that. What it is not is like
a call or a statement that means that the SDF
has to lay down their arms and start this thing.
This is for several reasons, absolutely not what it is.
(02:32):
The main one of those being that the SDF is not,
and never has been, the PAA, and that's something that
they've tried many times over the years to made very clear,
but unfortunately hasn't always been like heard and acknowledged.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And so whatever this statement means.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
That you guys will go into that in your program,
whatever it is for the PKKA. But the situation not
fair to stand. It's a different situation here, and so
the SDF is in a moment of like question and
a big change. But it's much more to do with
what's been happening in Syria politically and to do with
the government and the interim government had said, yeah, government
(03:09):
that installed themselves here and the regime things, and of
course the ongoing war and situation of invasions that they're facing.
So there's a lot of big questions for the SCF.
But I think it's important right now that we don't
kind of confuse and misunderstand with the sort of parallel
process that's going on.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, definitely, And I think if people are hearing this
and you're new to the show, this is your first
time hearing the sea of acronyms.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That is the Kurdish Freedom movement.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I coadereict you to The Women's War, which is a
series that Robert made. I have a book, but you
can't read it yet, still editing it. Or you could
listen to one of our numerous if you search for
a Java or Northern East Syria or Syria in our feed,
I'm sure you'll find a lot to explain those acronyms
to you. But yeah, we've had this situation right where
since December, the situation in Syria has drastically change and
(04:00):
we now have two state actors.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, we have lots of stay active.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We always had lots of state actors intervening in Syria,
but we have this new state actor in the Syrian
state right And I think people if they're you know,
if they're like reading the New York Times or god forbid,
seeing Charles Lister, then that they'll have a certain vision
of this that sort of exempts the SDF.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
It sort of just ignores this.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Whole area of Syria and says like, oh, well, the
Syrian Revolution has succeeded. I think we should address, like
what has happened to the SDF to northern East Syria
since the collapse of the ASAD regime in December.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, so obviously what's happened to Aysyia in.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Northern Assyria and t SDF is very connected to the
whole overall stereo process, And you're right when you hear
the reporting on it, I think lots of parts of
it can get erased in kind of depending who's talking
and what their angle is or whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
There are a lot of things left out not just
occurred in North.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Of East Syria, but other minority ethnic groups or like
women organizing across Syria, like all of these things. It's
a very complex situation which I won't pretend I can
completely lay out and summarize for everyone in five minutes.
But yeah, what you did have was the culmination the
end of a period and a massive change when as
(05:21):
you say, there was a regime change, there was a
change of government, and that happened with this like offensive
sweeping down from Idland to Damascus, succeeding in taking over
the government in Damascus from the Asad family, which was
the end of a sixty one year rain, which caused
absolute jubilation. It's safe to say all across Syria, and
that includes where I am, and none from Syria because anyway,
(05:43):
just yeah, people were very happy in celebrating. But also
there were cities here. When you look at the map
and you see this like semi autonomous region, what you
had to understand was that there were actually within the cities,
there were neighborhoods and sections that were still under the
Asad government. It wasn't as simple as like the whole
city is in the autonomous administration.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So here as well, even there were still.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Statutes of a Sad and people took the streets and
tore them down, and really close to actually where I'm
recording this today, there's a roundabout where they took down
the statue of a Sad and it's been replaced by
pictures of the martyrs of people who have fallen fighting
for the autonomy of the region here and fighting for
their political system.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
So you know, it's very very beautiful.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
People celebrated and more happy with a qualifier, with a
very big qualifier, you know. So that jails opened as
well and the flags went up, and yeah, it was
a real moment of jubilation, celebration. But unfortunately the force
which eventually succeeded in toppling a SAD and installing itself
as the now as they're saying, the interim or transitional
(06:49):
government of Syria, you know, we can say it was
not one of the many like progressive democratic alternative forces
the originally in the uprisings the SA government, yeah, back
in twenty and eleven. Since then, things have changed. And
isn't a podcast directly about that. I'm sure you guys
speak about it as well at other times. But instead
(07:09):
what you have is hts who are kind of conglomerate
militia of these different militia groups. There's another acronym for
you there names I.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Think, yeah, three languages acronyms. Pointing people to resources is.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Always very useful, and they are kind of mixed up
amalgamation of different militias who are operating in Syria, and
what's crucial to say about them is.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
That they're you know, their political background and perspective. A
lot of people in these organizations.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Are like really really similar unfortunately and all too familiar
to the people here who fought against ISIS, the Islamic State,
because they're coming from similar backgrounds, and also to al
Qaeda and the organizations who were kind of the Syrian
branches of al Qaeda.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
But like, yeah, I've played a really direct role.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
In finding and they want to now sort of put
on a new face, put on a suit, go out
and shake the world's hand and become world statesmen from
the government, which unfortunately it looks like all of our
governments are all too willing to very quickly accept.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
And we'll get in a minute.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
We can talk a bit specifically about the roles and
almost your listeners are in the States, so that the
American government has been playing here. But yes, so there's
a big qualifier on how much people are celebrating because
of the very dodgy history and the real like threat
the xcs's politics holds unfortunately, particularly for ethnic and minorities,
(08:36):
on women, and they're establishing their power and it's by
no means a kind of non violent or peaceful process,
and there's a lot of tensions flaring up with a
lot of problems. However, yes, it is the case that
in a lot of Syria, the majority of Syria outright,
like warfare on the ground as for an asstop because
(08:56):
there's one group have taken power and so we're in
a different moment, We're in a different process. So what's
different up here, what's different up in the north and east,
and what's not being discussed as much. And the point
that I'm often trying to make, what I'm trying to
write articles and doing interviews at the moment, is that like,
actually the war in the whole of Syria has not
completely stopped. Yea, mostly yes, you can say in most regions,
(09:18):
but significantly here in northern Eastyria. It's not just that
there is still classes or flare ups between different groups
like there might be in other regions. There is like
a full scale invasion, a ground invasion with air.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Support that has also been going on. Yeah, and that
was tied. Where has that come from? Like what is that?
Ones that look like this is another group another history
letter Drinn for you.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
But the important thing to understand is that this offensive
was tying to coincide with the HCS takeover it. FCS
also has a lot of links with the Perkish state,
and I wouldn't I personally would bot goose with bars
to say that that government is a Turkish public government
or that the relationship is that direct, But there is
a relationship, and what you saw when they kind of
successfully went on the offensive was at the same time,
(10:07):
other armed groups which operate are kind of loosely affiliated
and mostly operating on a mercenaries of a paid basis
rather than being kind of ideologically driven or whatever, but
are affiliated under the name the SNA, the Syrian National Army,
which is even more confusing because they're not and were
never the National Army of Syria what they are, and
(10:29):
yet these paid militias, which yeah, we can describe if
he might describe as hard as gangs, mercenaries, et cetera,
et cetera. And it kind of depends that it's like
a mix of different forces. What's very important there is
the very close relationship that they have with the Turkey
state that essentially the Turkish government has made the choice
(10:49):
that it wants to continue its.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Aggression and its expansionism on not.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Any Syria and the other than immediately sending their own army,
they instead pay and fund and direct and support these
militias who are also operating for their own benefit. Yes,
but the relationship between them their actions right now in
the Turkish.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
State is much more direct.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So at the same time as you have this this
sweep to the south that caused the agni change at
Sivia heading to the east, so originally the reason Zeppa
followed by city at Mintage in the region around there,
you have this onslaught from the essay and that is
what the SDF you originally mentioned are currently up against.
And that's the situation that we're in, and it's it's
still ongoing. It's very much not stopped. It's still much
(11:31):
very much like hot engagement and hot fighting that is happening.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, And it's like sometimes to introduce another econom we
use like TFSA to refer to some of those groups
like the Turkish Free Syrian Army and that they're essentially
an operation by the Turkey state to co operate what
was initially a democratic grassroots revolution more than a decade ago.
And like if you haven't been following I suppose it
would be easy to be confused by this, but the
(11:57):
SNA have not been backwards in documenting their war crimes
in the advance towards I guess, their advanced westwards towards
the Euphrates and even over the Euphrates, and there have
been some really horrible things, some of them, like I've
shared online if people want to. They're not hard to
find if you want to find them, but are not
going to put them right in front of you because
(12:17):
they're horrible. And as the SNA have advanced, they've reached
a couple of locations that are very crucial, right, and
that's where they've been kind of stopped by the SDF,
because the SDF haven't been in like such a large
sale conflict for the last couple of years. They've been
fighting against like Islamic State splinter cells, and to a
degree the SNA that, like the SDF, has modernized a
(12:41):
lot more than the SNA have I guess in the
past years, right, they've embraced the use of first person
few drones. They've even shut down several Turkish Biractar drones,
which they previously If they have the ability to do
it then then they weren't able to use that ability
until very recently. So like they in a sense, their
resistance has been very impressive, right because we have on
(13:03):
the one hand, it's the second largest army in NATO
giving its like full support to the SNA and on
the other hand we have the FDF, which is interior
US partner Force. Right there are US bases still in Syria,
there are US troops still in Syria. Well yeah, for now,
But like I mean, I remember when I was in
(13:24):
Java in October twenty twenty three, the US shot down
a Birector drone over a US base, and then it
did not shoot down the dozens of other Birector drones
that were bombing the cities the city that you're in
right now, city that I was in, other cities. You know,
I met a mother who had lost her fourteen year
(13:44):
old son to one of these drone bombings, really like
horrific and just cruel bombing of one of very clearly
civilian targets. So like, the US is there, but they're
not doing anything to help. Supposedly their friends, supposed their partners,
and like every interview I conducted began with like five
(14:05):
minutes of me being asked why the Americans weren't being
friends when the SDF had been friends to them in
the battle against ISIS, And like, that's not something you
have a good explanation for other than like, I think
most Courtish people can understand the difference between people and
government and people and state, and like, I might have
a belief, but it's not the same as the government
of the US. So can you explain the role of
(14:25):
the US here because people will be very confused, right,
And I think it's easy to sort of simplify this
as like America is in Syria for oil, but there's
a little bit more to it than that, right.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, absolutely, And again it's it's such a.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Big question, and it's a question of how far back
do you go? How far do you zoom out?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
In both as you keep moving back from today, the
plot kind of thickens and as you you know, if
you imagine if you're looking at the Google maps Asteria
and then you you click them button, the takes you
out and out and the map gets wider and wider.
The story kind of fills itself in as well. Like
that seems to make more sense when they are put
(15:09):
in that context, and I think a good place to
start maybe is, Yeah, this consistent for a long time,
like American attitude to this whole region, not just Syria,
which is to play yet to play very carefully to
(15:29):
your advantage and make a lines is where it suits
you and continue to where it suits you and not
stick to them.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Where it doesn't. And that is. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
One aspect of that is the resources which goes further
than just oil, is also gas and is also the
resource of the space to create a trade group, right, Like,
that's a really important question in the Middle East at
the moment, and it's one of the reasons that Kurdistan
is such an important place politically. A lot of these
lines of potential trade roots and these kind of lines
(16:01):
of power and money they intercept and they cross over here.
So there are all these different like resources at play.
And I think another thing that's important to look at
is that, Yeah, the the US as the US government
as you put it, as as distinct from the citizens
in anyway, doesn't just go into this blind and kind
of react day by day. It's not like a reactive
(16:23):
force in the world. The US government is and would
you know, proudly announced I think as well with the
creey thing on this one point, that they are, no
matter who the administration is and where it's politically leaning
at the time, a very proactive force. They have a
plan where that they go and they try and put
it into practice. And famously, historically and very intensely, a
lot of that has played out in the Middle East
(16:44):
because of the Middle East position in the world resources
and the role that it's played in kind of who
gets to be the big dog in the world over
the years and throughout history, it's become for those various
reasons like very important and so yeah, again without it's
(17:10):
many podcasts of its own, and I'm sure you are
making them, so I won't try and like summarize it,
but I think you can't talk about America's role in
Syria in the Middle East in.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
General without mentioning like Israel and the role Israeli state.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Place for for and with America and things like, you know,
we're all sort of following and for you guys following
more closely. People were all following the current Americans administration
and leadership and what's been coming out of there, and
sometimes you think, like God, is it just not when
you look at something like you know, the video for
(17:43):
like the new Gaza that we're going to make for example, Yeah,
and Trump Trump's Gaza.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Whatever that was.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean it makes it sick. And
then you're also not sure if it's it's serious or
if it's mad. But I think unfortunately it's actually Yeah,
it's quite an intelligent play. And what it speaks to
that is relevant to what I'm saying here is this
kind of long term plat right that to annihilate a
(18:09):
region into the best of your ability so that you
can move in and develop. It is a tried and
tested method of many many governments, and so America is
not the only one. But at the moment we're at
kind of crucial moment in the Middle East when one
sort of wall of forces are trying to greatly reduce
the role and power of some others so that they
(18:32):
can put.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Their plan into place and so that they can yeah
they can, so they can make money.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
You know, we always were following money and where development
can be made and where trade routes can be made.
And so what happened the tiny of the regime change
that we've just discussed, the timing of HTS being able
to move into the Masters and take it over. It's
no coincidence that it came after like a shift in
the Israeli like genocidal war on Gaza, and after what
(19:00):
the then military action they were taking against Tesbola and Lebanon,
which they felt then had up to a point achieved
what they wanted to achieve, and then things kind of
moved to Syria, right, So I'm not saying that the
new government has kind of come from has been sponsored
by that at all. I think there's a huge amount
of tension there, but the withdrawal of like the weakening
and or withdrawal of forces to Iran and Hezbela here
(19:22):
played a huge role with then being able to establish
themselves as a government. So that is also something that
you know that's not directly necessarily every step sort of
kind of puppeteered by the US at all, but it
is a part of the politics that the US has
had a long historical influence on and that it backs
and that it's in conversation is in the whole of
(19:43):
the Middle East. It's this kind of greater Middle East plan.
It's vision for it, if you if you will, and
The other aspect that I think is important to talk
about is the US's relationship with North and East Sria,
specifically you mentioned they're like, you know, there's like supposed
friendship with We can say that like friendship with the
Kurds as people will refer to it, or the alliance
(20:06):
and coalition between the SDF and the US, which was
sort of most most famous and most well known during
the fight against ISIS when the international coalition it's always
the spearheaded by America was bombing and providing air support
for the SDF as the as they pulled it, the
boots on the ground, the actual brand force that could
(20:27):
go and take territory back from ISIS, which yes, did
look like a kind of did look like a friendship.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
But I think from both.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Sides, everyone always knew that that was a practical alliance,
perhaps perhaps a strategic alliance at best, we can say,
but I think that the US has not got a
history of operating on a basis as like friendship or
of that kind of commitment to the forces it works with,
and a lot of history and modern recent history can
(20:57):
attest to that. And from the side of people here,
I think it's really important to say that, yeah, people
were angry and that you know what you heard.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
You were talking about interviewing people and then kind of
being like, well, what are they doing?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Like we we fought all with them, partly on their
behalf like and then they deserve.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yes, people are angry, but the more kind of.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Politically engaged someone is sort of moving up that scale.
I think the less faith they ever had in the US. Yeah. So,
and now you've got the US kind of muttering about
withdrawing their troops from Syria. Right and as Daja who
because they said this before, I was actually here when
they said this reportant back in twenty nineteen. I also
(21:37):
happened to be in northern East Syria, and it was
if I'm not wrong, it was Trump again. If I
turned out and they said we were drawing our forces
from Syria, did they actually withdraw Not exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
No.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
You still saw them driving around in big cars, mostly
right next to the oil fields.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It was a bit it was almost tomical, sort of
like when.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Part and parts next to the oil fields. But that
withdrawal was symbolic. That withdrawal was they withdrew from bases
right on the border with Turkey, which lies just to
the north of Syria and as such just nets to
north of eas Syria for anyone without the the map
immediately in their head. And they announced it very very
(22:17):
clearly and very publicly, and so it was a kind
of it was a green flag to say to Turkey.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, on you come, Yeah, we're not going to stop you.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
We're not gonna because what you don't want to do
is hit an American by accident, as you gave the examples.
They you know, they brought down a drum, but it
was over an American base, not because it was bombing
civilians nearby, which dozens of other were, and so that
you had that kind of symbolic withdrawal which led to
in twenty nineteen, it's one of the times that Turkey
has like annexed section essentially annexed a section of Syria
(22:47):
North and East Syria under the remit of the Autonomous Administration,
but nonetheless still technically Syrian territory. And in that time
it was Surah, Khania and.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Gerrispi, which people may have heard of.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And so that, yeah, that was the like green flag
to Turkey to take that step and at that time, yeah,
maybe share it's a lot of a lot of political stuff,
a lot of acrogyms, a lot of all this, and maybe.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I'll just share a be anecdote.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah, at that time and when they made the announcement
they were going to leave, people organized a march to
an American base and I was here at the time
and I joined it with some of the women's organizations.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
It was the most amazing day. Like I sort of
went home and wrote this massive.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Journal aniti because I've already been here for a very
long time, but my mind was still a bit blown
by it. For one thing, it was such an example
of how the social movement here works and what society
is like and all the complexities, because yeah, a lot
of people here are very wedded to the liberatory, progressive, grassroots, democratic,
(23:46):
women's readom ecological movement that I'm sure you've spoken about
in your programs on Rasjava, and thousands and thousands of
people completely take ownership of that and see themselves in
that and are the driving fossil that. Obviously, that doesn't
mean every single person here one sold on covement at all.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, some of them are trying to get on with life.
Some of them just trying to get on with life.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Some of them are you know, I mean, if you
talk about women's freedom, there's always going to be.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Really few men or a bit like what does this
mean for me? What do I have to give up?
So it would be sick, it would be silly and
new topics to say that everyone's top we sold.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
However, nobody wants to get invented by one of the
largest armies in NATO. Yeah, so you had this sort
of actually even broader than usual kind of coming together,
like groups from the sort of like tribal clan structures
here that are still like in really political force and
that don't you know, have a kind of uneasy truth
and sort of slowly learning each other relationship with the movement,
(24:44):
you can say, but they really came out in force
as well as well as like the Courdish movement as
well as like lots of different ethnic groups. And we marched,
And to be honest, I didn't know we were going
through an American based A lot of people didn't. It
was quite confusing dates because I think it want to
announce things too widely until they got there. Yeah, and
we went and did this kind of the Yeah, they
(25:04):
like read out a letter symbolically, I think in some
of the Arabic community leaders went up to the base
and we the majority of people. There's got hundreds of
hundred of people in this crowd, and they stayed back
at a distance. And I found out later that that
is because the American soldiers said, if two bigger groups
of people come close, we will like we will open fire.
Like that that information was given. Yeah, I don't know
(25:26):
what they were scared of. You know, it's like like
any mart here. The people in the front row are
always rant, yeah, yeah, old ladies. Yeahs no different on
that day. I mean, they're a bit scary, to be said.
I don't think that it's a bit embarrassing if the
American solders would together, but that stuff of it's just
but while we were there by like your chance, the
(25:47):
fleet of not tacks but big armored cars rolled in
and there was just this moment I really.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Clearly remember, and just kind of pause and they.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Rolled through the crowd, and the crowd parted and turned
and looked, and nobody teared or clapped.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Obviously there was no.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Sense of oh it's the Americans, right, yeah, but nobody
sort of through, you know, for anything else. Through insults
or chanted anything negative either. There was just this stillness
and this really palpable energy of this kind of sense
of people looking at you know, obviously they're just these
soldiers that happened to be driving these trucks, but they
really symbolized something more than that, and people were kind
(26:27):
of looking sort of insisting that you looked them in
the eye, saying like, hey, if anyone owes anyone, you
owe us after everything we.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Fought for and everything we've done.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, thirteen thousand marches they were called exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, so many people lost in the fight against IIST
and so much like blood and sweat and tears given,
and there was just, yeah, this palpable sense of like,
at least have the decency to kind of look at us.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
And admit what you're doing, because you know what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, and it really, yeah, it really felt it was.
It's very kind of moving at the time, and that
I feel like it's very symbolic into politics here of
how you know, someone asking the other day what was
it like for people to rely on America knowing that
they betrayed them, and I said, well, they didn't, They
never relied on them. You know, I was relying on
but you know, there's that kind of the expectation of
(27:20):
at least some sense of dignity. That is a very
important concept for people here in dignity and yeah, so yeah,
that that is I always remember that that would yeah
say again, I know it's confusing. That was five five
and a half years ago now and now you've got
this sort of is history repeating itself. They're talking about
the troops, but I think it's important to understand what
(27:41):
that means. What that means is they're talking about potentially
giving a greed of blag for more military aggression, and
I think they kind of haven't decided yet it's really
going to do it. And there's a lot of things
in the balance and in terms of I'll just say
one more, one more thing.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And it gets a bit longer.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
In terms of like the plan for Syria and America's role,
like this is my opinion. I can't say for sure
that this is the definite reality, but my understanding in
the situation is that once again people here in this
movement are kind of caught between a rock and a
hard place, And the rock and the hard place now
looks like you've got the new government that set itself
(28:22):
up in Damascus. Yes, and their goal is they can
wangle it and get the outside of international support, is
to build your sort of socially at least, if not politically.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
The model is going to look a bit like Afghanistan
and the Colabat right.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Like from the signs of changes they've made to the constitution,
incidents of like violence, sectarianism and feminist side have been rising.
Attacks they've already made on women's rights, like very rapidly,
and things that have been put in like the president
and that legally has to be a Muslim, all of
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
That's sort of their plan. But on the other hand,
I think if.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You kind of let the America government lose on Syria
to build up its fan at the moment, I think
they are seeing an opportunity to use this kind of
formula from Iraq into Yeah, and I think they want
to create this sort very open to capitalist market who
trade kind of space in which the North and East
(29:19):
area with the majority, though not entirely Curtis, can sort
of play this role that the Kurdistan region of Iraq
has played.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, I don't know what you call it, Like a
safe conduit to capital. Like it's a very stark difference
if people haven't traveled that part of the world to
be in pol A Bill and then to cross into Rajava,
that you can see the impact that a decade of
that being the safe place to have your oil company
headquarters has had on the Ghatstan regional government. Yeah, I'm
(29:58):
better move on if before we finish up, I want
to talk about the current manifestation of resistance, right and
specifically at Tishering Dam, because that's something that A has
been reported on and B like it mirrors what you
saw in twenty nineteen, and that like it's not just
a military resistance, right, but also like a civil size
(30:20):
society resistance. Can you explain maybe if people have seen anything,
they've seen that horrible video of people dancing and then
SNA drone just dropping a mortar bomb right in the
middle of them.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
But can you explain how we got there?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, of course, Now, yeah, great, I'm glad you asked
at that, because in some sense it's you know, there
is horrible stuff in there. But this is the this
is the beautiful bit, This is the great bit, the
bit that yeah, we should be.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Talking about at the moment.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
So yeah, the Tishing Dam is a big tydro electric
facility that is on the Euflates River. If you look
at a map, Asia Euplets is kind of in the
middle of the top and that is the region roughly
where there's offensive that we spoke out of the Turkish
funded militias, which has come from the west across to
(31:06):
the east, at times closer and further away from the river,
and currently like a few kilometers away, that's where that
offensive has been stopped by the FDA and cannot progress
any further despite intensive air support from Turkey, and they're
sort of increasingly putting pressure on that, but it hasn't
got anywhere.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
But it's close, right, you know.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
It's not too far away, and people are following the
news and what's right on the other side. If you
get across the river, there there's the dam, and then
there's a bridge further to the north of Krakos out bridge.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
That's similarly kind of crucial.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
And if you get across the river, you're not far away.
It's all from the city of Kabani, which I'm sure
most of your lessons will heard of. Is this massively
important symbol of anti fashion resistance. It was one of
the ignition points of the revolution for the social movement
here and it was really important a plight against ISIS.
And I think it's safe to say that Turkey via
the SNA had its eye on Kabani again and that
(32:00):
this is in fact an attack on Kabani which has
been kind of held back. And so the dam is
important symbolically as this like strategic river crossing. It's this
kind of no paths that are like they will not
pass moment. It's also important logistically, like for the society
here because it's a hydro electric facility. It supplies electricity,
(32:20):
helps with the supply of water for various reasons for
thousands and thousands of people. It's now out of action
might go without saying, but when you're in the middle
of an active war zone, you can't keep running a
place like that. So that is directly attacking and impacting
the society and normal communities here, and so yeah, it's
no wonder that those normal communities and that society but
(32:42):
always feel very very implicated and are kind of ready
to to stand up and defend themselves. It's not as yeah,
the military assault is not kept separate from the society,
and the society is also under attached indirectly attacks on
infrastructure such as that, and directly by like drone strikes
on many many civilian targets.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Unfortunately. Yeah, in recent.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Times that has increased, particularly in villages surrounding Banni, and
you seem like kids also hospitalized and.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Killed as a part of that.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
So on the eighth of January, what began was that
what they called a convoy, like a big, big trek
of different vehicles got together and arranged and organized from
different towns across Anatomy Syria.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
To go to kishin dam As.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
This very like the day symbol is very clear like
important physical location and also very symbolic thing where war
has also been fought before. There's also in previous campaigns
against ISIS, for example, there was fighting in the regions.
So people feel like, you know, their sons and daughters
have fought for this three river crossing before.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
It's still you know, it's there in the historical memory
as well.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, and people went and since then, which is almost
exactly two months as we're recording this, we're right around
the two months anniversary months, and there's been a constant
presence stare protests dam, and that's got several different kind of.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Aspects to it.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
It is mostly to raise the voices and raise awareness
and make visible what's happening. And yeah, if it's hard
to understand why like hundreds of people would go from
their homes to somewhere that is closer to the active fighting,
to somewhere that's in a very unstable region, like yeah,
first of all, you have to understand that nowhere in
notedly Syria is actually sick, right like in Commas, for
(34:26):
the city where I am, there's been residential buildings bombs
dropped on them from drones like within the.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Last couple of months as well. It's not like there's
this sense of safety wherever you are.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
The difference is a sense of doing something about it
and of standing together and coming together in these like
amazingly brave and amazingly creative ways that only the communities
have not in Assyria can manage. So yes, Unfortunately, during
these two months, and there have consistently been air strikes
on the dam, and I don't have the exact statistics,
and you wouldn't necessarily get an honest answer about how
(34:58):
many of them of pondirect from Turkey and how many
have come from SNA drones, right, but the Sena drunes
are paid for by the Turkis state anyway, So at
the end of the day, yeah, morally, how much difference
does it make? And they have attacked the civil protests there,
and up until now, I believe twenty five civilians have
(35:19):
been killed and many more than that hospitalized. But despite this,
and in the shadow of this, with the most beautiful
defiance like that, protest has continued. And what the videos
that maybe don't get shared as much or shared enough
that people might not have seen, are also these images
you know, which are very I can attest are very
real because I went there myself a few weeks ago,
(35:41):
which is everybody getting out and dancing at the slightest
opportunity or the slightest excuse or lack of an excuse.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
And the most amazing art that's been.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Made, like paintings of the people who've been killed or
they would say, here fallen martyr. In these two months, yes,
there's been theater like the performed using the bits of
the bombed out cars that were bombed just a few
days before as props to kind of like work. Yeah,
tell the story of what's been happening, like the most
(36:10):
like creative things.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Also statements for the press, and all.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Your different organizations show ups, so like the organized youse
show up as the use and obviously the women's organizations
as women saying like, you know, this is our revolution,
this is our community, and we know what it looks
like when it gets occupied. We're not just going to
stand by and see it happen again. It's our land,
it's our water, and it's our kids. Is the refrain
that kind of gets repeated over and over again. And
(36:35):
of course they're they're in solidarity as well with the
with the SDF themselves, with the military force. It would
be it would be crazy if they weren't, because yeah,
they are also embedded in their communities. No, they're not
extracted from the society the way that most kind of
state armies are. So yeah, the situation at Tiswine is
still ongoing. And when I was there, it was it
(36:56):
really was the most amazing experience. There were bombings. Well,
I was there and tragically one of the people I
got to know there who was a journalist, his name
was Eggie Brush.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Just less than two weeks after I got back, I
found out that he's also been killed in another drone strike.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
So it was yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Very very just kind of doesn't It doesn't stop, the
aggression doesn't stop, but nonetheless, people kind of coming together
to resist it doesn't stop either.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
And once I'd been.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
There, it seemed a lot less crazy, or had to
imagine that people would come together around it because you
see like the immense power that it was, and you
see that how everyone here has lost someone, know, like
the vast majority of people here have lost members of
their family. You said yourself, thirteen thousand fallen in the
fight against Isis alone, and since then, like war one
(37:46):
way or another has been going on.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
So people know what lost means.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Already they've already lost, but they're not going to let
that make them step back. They're gonna do their fallen
loved ones justice and continue to stand up in their name.
And yeah, it's a very sort of big thing, but
it's really powerful when you see it in person and
and all that kind of humanity and humor and joy
despite the situation.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah, no, that is a very unique thing to Curtis Dane,
And like the Kurdish freedom movements, this sort of joy.
I mean, I've been it's very similar in Burma rightly,
where they also do they love to dance, oh well
in a war, and like it is one of the
things that I think, like the joy is hard to explain.
I know we're sort of rating long on time here,
(38:30):
but I just like when people hear Syria and to
exempt when they hear me and Maud or they'll think
of wars, but like you should also think about all
the people who exist outside of the conflict, or who
don't think this outside of it that's the wrong word,
but who are not fighting at the front line. Like,
the experience of revolution is a very joyful one, even
(38:53):
amidst very difficult times. And it's difficult to explain it
if you haven't experienced it because it sounds so juxtaposed,
but it isn't necessarily. The guy have actually really fond
memories of meeting Kurdish people coming into the United States
in the mountains at the time when the United States
was detaining people outdoors in very difficult conditions, and like
(39:14):
dancing with them there at a time when it was miserable.
The ability to salvage joy. It gives you a sense
of sovereignty, I suppose, and I can understand why that's
such an important part of the Curdish freedom movement when
every expression of Curtis's identity has been suppressed for so long,
Like the ability to seize your moments what James Scott
would call like little small acts of resistance, Like it's important.
(39:38):
It's more important I think people understand. And if you're
understanding it from a Western military doctrine, it doesn't fit.
But that's because you're using the wrong framework. Yeah, exactly, Jenny.
If people are interested in following your work about this,
or perhaps they're interested in doing what they can to
support the revolution and what is a challenging time, a
(39:59):
very a very changing time, like how can they do
both of those things?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah, so well, if they are interested in following the
sort of updates and so on that I've been doing,
I've got Instagram and TikTok channels, which are both at
j Keston.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I'm assuming you can stick that written form somewhere. Yeah,
we'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
And telegram channel as well if people find it easier
to sort of get Yeah, that's just the most condensed
way to kind of download information. Videos or whatever, which
you can find under the same name, and there's also
links to it on the on Instagram TikTok and on there.
We've got we linked tree that has some suggestions for
if people want to support, like ways to donate, say
(40:41):
to the Kurdish Red Present and stuff like that. And
then specifically, yeah, I mean there is a lot that
people can do and whatever it.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Is, it all starts with getting more I wouldn't say informed,
I would say getting more.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Connected, right, So getting informed is a part of that,
but not just in the sense of information learning, Like
it's also connecting with like the feeling of things here
and why it's become so important to so many people across.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
The world, not just people from here.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, And the more we learn about that them all,
we'll start to see like how we can be a
friend to the movement.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Here and where how our role can fit. And I
know that there are specifically in America.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
A couple of organizations, is it that there'll be Books
has been really prominent in organizing one of them.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, Emergency Committee for Java.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Emergency Committee for a Java, that's the one. Yeah, I
mean you had emergency in there somewhere. That's definitely worth
looking up and following a lot of the.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Work that they do.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
And you've also got like think tanks like the Kurdish
Piece Institute that a kind of lobbying, and so yeah,
there are some there is some stuff from coming from
the United States as well, But I think, yeah, the
more people get a chance to kind of learn about
stuff here and see the connection and be able to
see and find themselves in it, and I think that's.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Got a lot to do with what you were just
speaking about.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Hearing you put so well, I wouldn't extend it much more,
but yeah, like people here, it's really there's always war happening,
and always war kind of filing on top of you,
but that's never what it's about. The question is always
what are you're fighting for and what you're fighting to defend?
And what would you be doing if there was no war.
Everyone here'll always say if there was no war, we'd
(42:19):
still have enough work to do with all the really,
like I was that word ambitious, like social transformation.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
That people here are really committed to.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Yeah, there's enough going on and it's very big and
as you put it, it's very beautiful and very joyful
and so that's Yeah, that's the bit that I encourage
people to try and learn more about, because that's the
bit that makes you stay and makes people like me
stick around for years finding out more and more and
making friends and getting closer and closer to the communities here.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, I think that's a very good way to put it. So, yeah,
I encourage people to do all that.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Thank you so much for your time doing I know
it's late there that we really appreciate you joining us today.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thank you so much. Cheers.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from Zone Media, visit our website fool
Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here,
listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
Cause Media. Hi everyone, and welcome to the podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
It's James today and I'm joined by Jenny Keston, who's
a writer, activist and someone who's been in and out
of Northeast Syria for a long time working with the
women's movement, and today we're going to be talking about
the situation in North and East Syria since the fall
of the Asad regime, some of the conflict that has
been happening in the resistance of the SDF.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Welcome to the show, Jenny either. Yeah, first of all,
it's not sure having him really happy to be here. Yeah,
you're welcome, of course.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
So I think if we start off, people have been
messaging me a lot of various platforms about the letter
that abdulah or Jerland wrote, and I don't want to
dress that in its entirety today because we've got something
coming up on that we're going to talk to some
people from the Freedom for Abdullah campaign, but I do
want to use it as a jumping off point because
(00:55):
I think it a has reminded people, as we spoke
about before the show, that not the Syria exists and
the SDF exists, which has been largely missing, and like
the legacy media reporting on Syria, but be like, there's
been atrocious reporting on what it means for the SDF,
even though there's a very clear answer to that. So
(01:16):
for people who have you been reading papers which either
just ignore the existence of the FDF entirely or speculate
as to what they're going to do when they've given
a very clear answer, could.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
You explain to people like where this leaves the SDF.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah, sure, no, So thanks for that, And yeah, I've
also been gay a lot of questions about chans later
and I'm really glad to hear that you guys are
going to do a program on it, because Western media
wants to divorce it in this way. It's very snazzy
and there's like bolts with the blue and something crazy
has happening. Really, it's unfortunately it has to actually be
(01:49):
talking about in a kind of more long term and
intelligent way that sets the context and like, yeah, puts
that and makes things a bit more clear because it
is something with the background and it's connected to a
lot of things, and of course that whole political process
that Johan's recent statement is a part of, it's going
to affect the situation here in northern East Siria, because
(02:10):
the situation here a lot of the time depends on
the actions of the Turkish state and on expansionism an
aggression from there, and so as the political situation shouldn't changes,
it will affect that. What it is not is like
a call or a statement that means that the SDF
has to lay down their arms and start this thing.
This is for several reasons, absolutely not what it is.
(02:32):
The main one of those being that the SDF is not,
and never has been, the PAA, and that's something that
they've tried many times over the years to made very clear,
but unfortunately hasn't always been like heard and acknowledged.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
And so whatever this statement means.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
That you guys will go into that in your program,
whatever it is for the PKKA. But the situation not
fair to stand. It's a different situation here, and so
the SDF is in a moment of like question and
a big change. But it's much more to do with
what's been happening in Syria politically and to do with
the government and the interim government had said, yeah, government
(03:09):
that installed themselves here and the regime things, and of
course the ongoing war and situation of invasions that they're facing.
So there's a lot of big questions for the SCF.
But I think it's important right now that we don't
kind of confuse and misunderstand with the sort of parallel
process that's going on.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
Yeah, definitely, And I think if people are hearing this
and you're new to the show, this is your first
time hearing the sea of acronyms.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
That is the Kurdish Freedom movement.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
I coadereict you to The Women's War, which is a
series that Robert made. I have a book, but you
can't read it yet, still editing it. Or you could
listen to one of our numerous if you search for
a Java or Northern East Syria or Syria in our feed,
I'm sure you'll find a lot to explain those acronyms
to you. But yeah, we've had this situation right where
since December, the situation in Syria has drastically change and
(04:00):
we now have two state actors.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, we have lots of stay active.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
We always had lots of state actors intervening in Syria,
but we have this new state actor in the Syrian
state right And I think people if they're you know,
if they're like reading the New York Times or god forbid,
seeing Charles Lister, then that they'll have a certain vision
of this that sort of exempts the SDF.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
It sort of just ignores this.
Speaker 2 (04:25):
Whole area of Syria and says like, oh, well, the
Syrian Revolution has succeeded. I think we should address, like
what has happened to the SDF to northern East Syria
since the collapse of the ASAD regime in December.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
Yeah, so obviously what's happened to Aysyia in.
Speaker 3 (04:44):
Northern Assyria and t SDF is very connected to the
whole overall stereo process, And you're right when you hear
the reporting on it, I think lots of parts of
it can get erased in kind of depending who's talking
and what their angle is or whatever.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
There are a lot of things left out not just
occurred in North.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
Of East Syria, but other minority ethnic groups or like
women organizing across Syria, like all of these things. It's
a very complex situation which I won't pretend I can
completely lay out and summarize for everyone in five minutes.
But yeah, what you did have was the culmination the
end of a period and a massive change when as
(05:21):
you say, there was a regime change, there was a
change of government, and that happened with this like offensive
sweeping down from Idland to Damascus, succeeding in taking over
the government in Damascus from the Asad family, which was
the end of a sixty one year rain, which caused
absolute jubilation. It's safe to say all across Syria, and
that includes where I am, and none from Syria because anyway,
(05:43):
just yeah, people were very happy in celebrating. But also
there were cities here. When you look at the map
and you see this like semi autonomous region, what you
had to understand was that there were actually within the cities,
there were neighborhoods and sections that were still under the
Asad government. It wasn't as simple as like the whole
city is in the autonomous administration.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
So here as well, even there were still.
Speaker 3 (06:06):
Statutes of a Sad and people took the streets and
tore them down, and really close to actually where I'm
recording this today, there's a roundabout where they took down
the statue of a Sad and it's been replaced by
pictures of the martyrs of people who have fallen fighting
for the autonomy of the region here and fighting for
their political system.
Speaker 1 (06:23):
So you know, it's very very beautiful.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
People celebrated and more happy with a qualifier, with a
very big qualifier, you know. So that jails opened as
well and the flags went up, and yeah, it was
a real moment of jubilation, celebration. But unfortunately the force
which eventually succeeded in toppling a SAD and installing itself
as the now as they're saying, the interim or transitional
(06:49):
government of Syria, you know, we can say it was
not one of the many like progressive democratic alternative forces
the originally in the uprisings the SA government, yeah, back
in twenty and eleven. Since then, things have changed. And
isn't a podcast directly about that. I'm sure you guys
speak about it as well at other times. But instead
(07:09):
what you have is hts who are kind of conglomerate
militia of these different militia groups. There's another acronym for
you there names I.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Think, yeah, three languages acronyms. Pointing people to resources is.
Speaker 3 (07:26):
Always very useful, and they are kind of mixed up
amalgamation of different militias who are operating in Syria, and
what's crucial to say about them is.
Speaker 1 (07:36):
That they're you know, their political background and perspective. A
lot of people in these organizations.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Are like really really similar unfortunately and all too familiar
to the people here who fought against ISIS, the Islamic State,
because they're coming from similar backgrounds, and also to al
Qaeda and the organizations who were kind of the Syrian
branches of al Qaeda.
Speaker 1 (07:57):
But like, yeah, I've played a really direct role.
Speaker 3 (07:59):
In finding and they want to now sort of put
on a new face, put on a suit, go out
and shake the world's hand and become world statesmen from
the government, which unfortunately it looks like all of our
governments are all too willing to very quickly accept.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
And we'll get in a minute.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
We can talk a bit specifically about the roles and
almost your listeners are in the States, so that the
American government has been playing here. But yes, so there's
a big qualifier on how much people are celebrating because
of the very dodgy history and the real like threat
the xcs's politics holds unfortunately, particularly for ethnic and minorities,
(08:36):
on women, and they're establishing their power and it's by
no means a kind of non violent or peaceful process,
and there's a lot of tensions flaring up with a
lot of problems. However, yes, it is the case that
in a lot of Syria, the majority of Syria outright,
like warfare on the ground as for an asstop because
(08:56):
there's one group have taken power and so we're in
a different moment, We're in a different process. So what's
different up here, what's different up in the north and east,
and what's not being discussed as much. And the point
that I'm often trying to make, what I'm trying to
write articles and doing interviews at the moment, is that like,
actually the war in the whole of Syria has not
completely stopped. Yea, mostly yes, you can say in most regions,
(09:18):
but significantly here in northern Eastyria. It's not just that
there is still classes or flare ups between different groups
like there might be in other regions. There is like
a full scale invasion, a ground invasion with air.
Speaker 1 (09:31):
Support that has also been going on. Yeah, and that
was tied. Where has that come from? Like what is that?
Ones that look like this is another group another history
letter Drinn for you.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
But the important thing to understand is that this offensive
was tying to coincide with the HCS takeover it. FCS
also has a lot of links with the Perkish state,
and I wouldn't I personally would bot goose with bars
to say that that government is a Turkish public government
or that the relationship is that direct, But there is
a relationship, and what you saw when they kind of
successfully went on the offensive was at the same time,
(10:07):
other armed groups which operate are kind of loosely affiliated
and mostly operating on a mercenaries of a paid basis
rather than being kind of ideologically driven or whatever, but
are affiliated under the name the SNA, the Syrian National Army,
which is even more confusing because they're not and were
never the National Army of Syria what they are, and
(10:29):
yet these paid militias, which yeah, we can describe if
he might describe as hard as gangs, mercenaries, et cetera,
et cetera. And it kind of depends that it's like
a mix of different forces. What's very important there is
the very close relationship that they have with the Turkey
state that essentially the Turkish government has made the choice
(10:49):
that it wants to continue its.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
Aggression and its expansionism on not.
Speaker 3 (10:53):
Any Syria and the other than immediately sending their own army,
they instead pay and fund and direct and support these
militias who are also operating for their own benefit. Yes,
but the relationship between them their actions right now in
the Turkish.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
State is much more direct.
Speaker 3 (11:09):
So at the same time as you have this this
sweep to the south that caused the agni change at
Sivia heading to the east, so originally the reason Zeppa
followed by city at Mintage in the region around there,
you have this onslaught from the essay and that is
what the SDF you originally mentioned are currently up against.
And that's the situation that we're in, and it's it's
still ongoing. It's very much not stopped. It's still much
(11:31):
very much like hot engagement and hot fighting that is happening.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
Yeah, And it's like sometimes to introduce another econom we
use like TFSA to refer to some of those groups
like the Turkish Free Syrian Army and that they're essentially
an operation by the Turkey state to co operate what
was initially a democratic grassroots revolution more than a decade ago.
And like if you haven't been following I suppose it
would be easy to be confused by this, but the
(11:57):
SNA have not been backwards in documenting their war crimes
in the advance towards I guess, their advanced westwards towards
the Euphrates and even over the Euphrates, and there have
been some really horrible things, some of them, like I've
shared online if people want to. They're not hard to
find if you want to find them, but are not
going to put them right in front of you because
(12:17):
they're horrible. And as the SNA have advanced, they've reached
a couple of locations that are very crucial, right, and
that's where they've been kind of stopped by the SDF,
because the SDF haven't been in like such a large
sale conflict for the last couple of years. They've been
fighting against like Islamic State splinter cells, and to a
degree the SNA that, like the SDF, has modernized a
(12:41):
lot more than the SNA have I guess in the
past years, right, they've embraced the use of first person
few drones. They've even shut down several Turkish Biractar drones,
which they previously If they have the ability to do
it then then they weren't able to use that ability
until very recently. So like they in a sense, their
resistance has been very impressive, right because we have on
(13:03):
the one hand, it's the second largest army in NATO
giving its like full support to the SNA and on
the other hand we have the FDF, which is interior
US partner Force. Right there are US bases still in Syria,
there are US troops still in Syria. Well yeah, for now,
But like I mean, I remember when I was in
(13:24):
Java in October twenty twenty three, the US shot down
a Birector drone over a US base, and then it
did not shoot down the dozens of other Birector drones
that were bombing the cities the city that you're in
right now, city that I was in, other cities. You know,
I met a mother who had lost her fourteen year
(13:44):
old son to one of these drone bombings, really like
horrific and just cruel bombing of one of very clearly
civilian targets. So like, the US is there, but they're
not doing anything to help. Supposedly their friends, supposed their partners,
and like every interview I conducted began with like five
(14:05):
minutes of me being asked why the Americans weren't being
friends when the SDF had been friends to them in
the battle against ISIS, And like, that's not something you
have a good explanation for other than like, I think
most Courtish people can understand the difference between people and
government and people and state, and like, I might have
a belief, but it's not the same as the government
of the US. So can you explain the role of
(14:25):
the US here because people will be very confused, right,
And I think it's easy to sort of simplify this
as like America is in Syria for oil, but there's
a little bit more to it than that, right.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
Yeah, absolutely, And again it's it's such a.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
Big question, and it's a question of how far back
do you go? How far do you zoom out?
Speaker 3 (14:48):
In both as you keep moving back from today, the
plot kind of thickens and as you you know, if
you imagine if you're looking at the Google maps Asteria
and then you you click them button, the takes you
out and out and the map gets wider and wider.
The story kind of fills itself in as well. Like
that seems to make more sense when they are put
(15:09):
in that context, and I think a good place to
start maybe is, Yeah, this consistent for a long time,
like American attitude to this whole region, not just Syria,
which is to play yet to play very carefully to
(15:29):
your advantage and make a lines is where it suits
you and continue to where it suits you and not
stick to them.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
Where it doesn't. And that is. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (15:38):
One aspect of that is the resources which goes further
than just oil, is also gas and is also the
resource of the space to create a trade group, right, Like,
that's a really important question in the Middle East at
the moment, and it's one of the reasons that Kurdistan
is such an important place politically. A lot of these
lines of potential trade roots and these kind of lines
(16:01):
of power and money they intercept and they cross over here.
So there are all these different like resources at play.
And I think another thing that's important to look at
is that, Yeah, the the US as the US government
as you put it, as as distinct from the citizens
in anyway, doesn't just go into this blind and kind
of react day by day. It's not like a reactive
(16:23):
force in the world. The US government is and would
you know, proudly announced I think as well with the
creey thing on this one point, that they are, no
matter who the administration is and where it's politically leaning
at the time, a very proactive force. They have a
plan where that they go and they try and put
it into practice. And famously, historically and very intensely, a
lot of that has played out in the Middle East
(16:44):
because of the Middle East position in the world resources
and the role that it's played in kind of who
gets to be the big dog in the world over
the years and throughout history, it's become for those various
reasons like very important and so yeah, again without it's
(17:10):
many podcasts of its own, and I'm sure you are
making them, so I won't try and like summarize it,
but I think you can't talk about America's role in
Syria in the Middle East in.
Speaker 1 (17:19):
General without mentioning like Israel and the role Israeli state.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
Place for for and with America and things like, you know,
we're all sort of following and for you guys following
more closely. People were all following the current Americans administration
and leadership and what's been coming out of there, and
sometimes you think, like God, is it just not when
you look at something like you know, the video for
(17:43):
like the new Gaza that we're going to make for example, Yeah,
and Trump Trump's Gaza.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Whatever that was.
Speaker 3 (17:49):
Yeah, yeah, So I mean it makes it sick. And
then you're also not sure if it's it's serious or
if it's mad. But I think unfortunately it's actually Yeah,
it's quite an intelligent play. And what it speaks to
that is relevant to what I'm saying here is this
kind of long term plat right that to annihilate a
(18:09):
region into the best of your ability so that you
can move in and develop. It is a tried and
tested method of many many governments, and so America is
not the only one. But at the moment we're at
kind of crucial moment in the Middle East when one
sort of wall of forces are trying to greatly reduce
the role and power of some others so that they
(18:32):
can put.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Their plan into place and so that they can yeah
they can, so they can make money.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
You know, we always were following money and where development
can be made and where trade routes can be made.
And so what happened the tiny of the regime change
that we've just discussed, the timing of HTS being able
to move into the Masters and take it over. It's
no coincidence that it came after like a shift in
the Israeli like genocidal war on Gaza, and after what
(19:00):
the then military action they were taking against Tesbola and Lebanon,
which they felt then had up to a point achieved
what they wanted to achieve, and then things kind of
moved to Syria, right, So I'm not saying that the
new government has kind of come from has been sponsored
by that at all. I think there's a huge amount
of tension there, but the withdrawal of like the weakening
and or withdrawal of forces to Iran and Hezbela here
(19:22):
played a huge role with then being able to establish
themselves as a government. So that is also something that
you know that's not directly necessarily every step sort of
kind of puppeteered by the US at all, but it
is a part of the politics that the US has
had a long historical influence on and that it backs
and that it's in conversation is in the whole of
(19:43):
the Middle East. It's this kind of greater Middle East plan.
It's vision for it, if you if you will, and
The other aspect that I think is important to talk
about is the US's relationship with North and East Sria,
specifically you mentioned they're like, you know, there's like supposed
friendship with We can say that like friendship with the
Kurds as people will refer to it, or the alliance
(20:06):
and coalition between the SDF and the US, which was
sort of most most famous and most well known during
the fight against ISIS when the international coalition it's always
the spearheaded by America was bombing and providing air support
for the SDF as the as they pulled it, the
boots on the ground, the actual brand force that could
(20:27):
go and take territory back from ISIS, which yes, did
look like a kind of did look like a friendship.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
But I think from both.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Sides, everyone always knew that that was a practical alliance,
perhaps perhaps a strategic alliance at best, we can say,
but I think that the US has not got a
history of operating on a basis as like friendship or
of that kind of commitment to the forces it works with,
and a lot of history and modern recent history can
(20:57):
attest to that. And from the side of people here,
I think it's really important to say that, yeah, people
were angry and that you know what you heard.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
You were talking about interviewing people and then kind of
being like, well, what are they doing?
Speaker 3 (21:08):
Like we we fought all with them, partly on their
behalf like and then they deserve.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Yes, people are angry, but the more kind of.
Speaker 3 (21:16):
Politically engaged someone is sort of moving up that scale.
I think the less faith they ever had in the US. Yeah. So,
and now you've got the US kind of muttering about
withdrawing their troops from Syria. Right and as Daja who
because they said this before, I was actually here when
they said this reportant back in twenty nineteen. I also
(21:37):
happened to be in northern East Syria, and it was
if I'm not wrong, it was Trump again. If I
turned out and they said we were drawing our forces
from Syria, did they actually withdraw Not exactly.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
No.
Speaker 3 (21:50):
You still saw them driving around in big cars, mostly
right next to the oil fields.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
It was a bit it was almost tomical, sort of
like when.
Speaker 3 (21:56):
Part and parts next to the oil fields. But that
withdrawal was symbolic. That withdrawal was they withdrew from bases
right on the border with Turkey, which lies just to
the north of Syria and as such just nets to
north of eas Syria for anyone without the the map
immediately in their head. And they announced it very very
(22:17):
clearly and very publicly, and so it was a kind
of it was a green flag to say to Turkey.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, on you come, Yeah, we're not going to stop you.
Speaker 3 (22:24):
We're not gonna because what you don't want to do
is hit an American by accident, as you gave the examples.
They you know, they brought down a drum, but it
was over an American base, not because it was bombing
civilians nearby, which dozens of other were, and so that
you had that kind of symbolic withdrawal which led to
in twenty nineteen, it's one of the times that Turkey
has like annexed section essentially annexed a section of Syria
(22:47):
North and East Syria under the remit of the Autonomous Administration,
but nonetheless still technically Syrian territory. And in that time
it was Surah, Khania and.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
Gerrispi, which people may have heard of.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
And so that, yeah, that was the like green flag
to Turkey to take that step and at that time, yeah,
maybe share it's a lot of a lot of political stuff,
a lot of acrogyms, a lot of all this, and maybe.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
I'll just share a be anecdote.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
Yeah, at that time and when they made the announcement
they were going to leave, people organized a march to
an American base and I was here at the time
and I joined it with some of the women's organizations.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
It was the most amazing day. Like I sort of
went home and wrote this massive.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
Journal aniti because I've already been here for a very
long time, but my mind was still a bit blown
by it. For one thing, it was such an example
of how the social movement here works and what society
is like and all the complexities, because yeah, a lot
of people here are very wedded to the liberatory, progressive, grassroots, democratic,
(23:46):
women's readom ecological movement that I'm sure you've spoken about
in your programs on Rasjava, and thousands and thousands of
people completely take ownership of that and see themselves in
that and are the driving fossil that. Obviously, that doesn't
mean every single person here one sold on covement at all.
Speaker 1 (24:03):
Yeah, some of them are trying to get on with life.
Some of them just trying to get on with life.
Speaker 3 (24:06):
Some of them are you know, I mean, if you
talk about women's freedom, there's always going to be.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Really few men or a bit like what does this
mean for me? What do I have to give up?
So it would be sick, it would be silly and
new topics to say that everyone's top we sold.
Speaker 3 (24:20):
However, nobody wants to get invented by one of the
largest armies in NATO. Yeah, so you had this sort
of actually even broader than usual kind of coming together,
like groups from the sort of like tribal clan structures
here that are still like in really political force and
that don't you know, have a kind of uneasy truth
and sort of slowly learning each other relationship with the movement,
(24:44):
you can say, but they really came out in force
as well as well as like the Courdish movement as
well as like lots of different ethnic groups. And we marched,
And to be honest, I didn't know we were going
through an American based A lot of people didn't. It
was quite confusing dates because I think it want to
announce things too widely until they got there. Yeah, and
we went and did this kind of the Yeah, they
(25:04):
like read out a letter symbolically, I think in some
of the Arabic community leaders went up to the base
and we the majority of people. There's got hundreds of
hundred of people in this crowd, and they stayed back
at a distance. And I found out later that that
is because the American soldiers said, if two bigger groups
of people come close, we will like we will open fire.
Like that that information was given. Yeah, I don't know
(25:26):
what they were scared of. You know, it's like like
any mart here. The people in the front row are
always rant, yeah, yeah, old ladies. Yeahs no different on
that day. I mean, they're a bit scary, to be said.
I don't think that it's a bit embarrassing if the
American solders would together, but that stuff of it's just
but while we were there by like your chance, the
(25:47):
fleet of not tacks but big armored cars rolled in
and there was just this moment I really.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
Clearly remember, and just kind of pause and they.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
Rolled through the crowd, and the crowd parted and turned
and looked, and nobody teared or clapped.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Obviously there was no.
Speaker 3 (26:05):
Sense of oh it's the Americans, right, yeah, but nobody
sort of through, you know, for anything else. Through insults
or chanted anything negative either. There was just this stillness
and this really palpable energy of this kind of sense
of people looking at you know, obviously they're just these
soldiers that happened to be driving these trucks, but they
really symbolized something more than that, and people were kind
(26:27):
of looking sort of insisting that you looked them in
the eye, saying like, hey, if anyone owes anyone, you
owe us after everything we.
Speaker 1 (26:36):
Fought for and everything we've done.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, thirteen thousand marches they were called exactly, exactly.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, so many people lost in the fight against IIST
and so much like blood and sweat and tears given,
and there was just, yeah, this palpable sense of like,
at least have the decency to kind of look at us.
Speaker 1 (26:53):
And admit what you're doing, because you know what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
Yeah, and it really, yeah, it really felt it was.
It's very kind of moving at the time, and that
I feel like it's very symbolic into politics here of
how you know, someone asking the other day what was
it like for people to rely on America knowing that
they betrayed them, and I said, well, they didn't, They
never relied on them. You know, I was relying on
but you know, there's that kind of the expectation of
(27:20):
at least some sense of dignity. That is a very
important concept for people here in dignity and yeah, so yeah,
that that is I always remember that that would yeah
say again, I know it's confusing. That was five five
and a half years ago now and now you've got
this sort of is history repeating itself. They're talking about
the troops, but I think it's important to understand what
(27:41):
that means. What that means is they're talking about potentially
giving a greed of blag for more military aggression, and
I think they kind of haven't decided yet it's really
going to do it. And there's a lot of things
in the balance and in terms of I'll just say
one more, one more thing.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And it gets a bit longer.
Speaker 3 (28:00):
In terms of like the plan for Syria and America's role,
like this is my opinion. I can't say for sure
that this is the definite reality, but my understanding in
the situation is that once again people here in this
movement are kind of caught between a rock and a
hard place, And the rock and the hard place now
looks like you've got the new government that set itself
(28:22):
up in Damascus. Yes, and their goal is they can
wangle it and get the outside of international support, is
to build your sort of socially at least, if not politically.
Speaker 1 (28:33):
The model is going to look a bit like Afghanistan
and the Colabat right.
Speaker 3 (28:36):
Like from the signs of changes they've made to the constitution,
incidents of like violence, sectarianism and feminist side have been rising.
Attacks they've already made on women's rights, like very rapidly,
and things that have been put in like the president
and that legally has to be a Muslim, all of
this stuff.
Speaker 1 (28:54):
That's sort of their plan. But on the other hand,
I think if.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
You kind of let the America government lose on Syria
to build up its fan at the moment, I think
they are seeing an opportunity to use this kind of
formula from Iraq into Yeah, and I think they want
to create this sort very open to capitalist market who
trade kind of space in which the North and East
(29:19):
area with the majority, though not entirely Curtis, can sort
of play this role that the Kurdistan region of Iraq
has played.
Speaker 2 (29:26):
Yeah, I don't know what you call it, Like a
safe conduit to capital. Like it's a very stark difference
if people haven't traveled that part of the world to
be in pol A Bill and then to cross into Rajava,
that you can see the impact that a decade of
that being the safe place to have your oil company
headquarters has had on the Ghatstan regional government. Yeah, I'm
(29:58):
better move on if before we finish up, I want
to talk about the current manifestation of resistance, right and
specifically at Tishering Dam, because that's something that A has
been reported on and B like it mirrors what you
saw in twenty nineteen, and that like it's not just
a military resistance, right, but also like a civil size
(30:20):
society resistance. Can you explain maybe if people have seen anything,
they've seen that horrible video of people dancing and then
SNA drone just dropping a mortar bomb right in the
middle of them.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
But can you explain how we got there?
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Yeah, of course, Now, yeah, great, I'm glad you asked
at that, because in some sense it's you know, there
is horrible stuff in there. But this is the this
is the beautiful bit, This is the great bit, the
bit that yeah, we should be.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Talking about at the moment.
Speaker 3 (30:46):
So yeah, the Tishing Dam is a big tydro electric
facility that is on the Euflates River. If you look
at a map, Asia Euplets is kind of in the
middle of the top and that is the region roughly
where there's offensive that we spoke out of the Turkish
funded militias, which has come from the west across to
(31:06):
the east, at times closer and further away from the river,
and currently like a few kilometers away, that's where that
offensive has been stopped by the FDA and cannot progress
any further despite intensive air support from Turkey, and they're
sort of increasingly putting pressure on that, but it hasn't
got anywhere.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
But it's close, right, you know.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
It's not too far away, and people are following the
news and what's right on the other side. If you
get across the river, there there's the dam, and then
there's a bridge further to the north of Krakos out bridge.
Speaker 1 (31:35):
That's similarly kind of crucial.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
And if you get across the river, you're not far away.
It's all from the city of Kabani, which I'm sure
most of your lessons will heard of. Is this massively
important symbol of anti fashion resistance. It was one of
the ignition points of the revolution for the social movement
here and it was really important a plight against ISIS.
And I think it's safe to say that Turkey via
the SNA had its eye on Kabani again and that
(32:00):
this is in fact an attack on Kabani which has
been kind of held back. And so the dam is
important symbolically as this like strategic river crossing. It's this
kind of no paths that are like they will not
pass moment. It's also important logistically, like for the society
here because it's a hydro electric facility. It supplies electricity,
(32:20):
helps with the supply of water for various reasons for
thousands and thousands of people. It's now out of action
might go without saying, but when you're in the middle
of an active war zone, you can't keep running a
place like that. So that is directly attacking and impacting
the society and normal communities here, and so yeah, it's
no wonder that those normal communities and that society but
(32:42):
always feel very very implicated and are kind of ready
to to stand up and defend themselves. It's not as yeah,
the military assault is not kept separate from the society,
and the society is also under attached indirectly attacks on
infrastructure such as that, and directly by like drone strikes
on many many civilian targets.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Unfortunately. Yeah, in recent.
Speaker 3 (33:04):
Times that has increased, particularly in villages surrounding Banni, and
you seem like kids also hospitalized and.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
Killed as a part of that.
Speaker 3 (33:11):
So on the eighth of January, what began was that
what they called a convoy, like a big, big trek
of different vehicles got together and arranged and organized from
different towns across Anatomy Syria.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
To go to kishin dam As.
Speaker 3 (33:27):
This very like the day symbol is very clear like
important physical location and also very symbolic thing where war
has also been fought before. There's also in previous campaigns
against ISIS, for example, there was fighting in the regions.
So people feel like, you know, their sons and daughters
have fought for this three river crossing before.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
It's still you know, it's there in the historical memory
as well.
Speaker 3 (33:49):
Yeah, and people went and since then, which is almost
exactly two months as we're recording this, we're right around
the two months anniversary months, and there's been a constant
presence stare protests dam, and that's got several different kind of.
Speaker 1 (34:02):
Aspects to it.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
It is mostly to raise the voices and raise awareness
and make visible what's happening. And yeah, if it's hard
to understand why like hundreds of people would go from
their homes to somewhere that is closer to the active fighting,
to somewhere that's in a very unstable region, like yeah,
first of all, you have to understand that nowhere in
notedly Syria is actually sick, right like in Commas, for
(34:26):
the city where I am, there's been residential buildings bombs
dropped on them from drones like within the.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
Last couple of months as well. It's not like there's
this sense of safety wherever you are.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
The difference is a sense of doing something about it
and of standing together and coming together in these like
amazingly brave and amazingly creative ways that only the communities
have not in Assyria can manage. So yes, Unfortunately, during
these two months, and there have consistently been air strikes
on the dam, and I don't have the exact statistics,
and you wouldn't necessarily get an honest answer about how
(34:58):
many of them of pondirect from Turkey and how many
have come from SNA drones, right, but the Sena drunes
are paid for by the Turkis state anyway, So at
the end of the day, yeah, morally, how much difference
does it make? And they have attacked the civil protests there,
and up until now, I believe twenty five civilians have
(35:19):
been killed and many more than that hospitalized. But despite this,
and in the shadow of this, with the most beautiful
defiance like that, protest has continued. And what the videos
that maybe don't get shared as much or shared enough
that people might not have seen, are also these images
you know, which are very I can attest are very
real because I went there myself a few weeks ago,
(35:41):
which is everybody getting out and dancing at the slightest
opportunity or the slightest excuse or lack of an excuse.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
And the most amazing art that's been.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Made, like paintings of the people who've been killed or
they would say, here fallen martyr. In these two months, yes,
there's been theater like the performed using the bits of
the bombed out cars that were bombed just a few
days before as props to kind of like work. Yeah,
tell the story of what's been happening, like the most
(36:10):
like creative things.
Speaker 1 (36:11):
Also statements for the press, and all.
Speaker 3 (36:14):
Your different organizations show ups, so like the organized youse
show up as the use and obviously the women's organizations
as women saying like, you know, this is our revolution,
this is our community, and we know what it looks
like when it gets occupied. We're not just going to
stand by and see it happen again. It's our land,
it's our water, and it's our kids. Is the refrain
that kind of gets repeated over and over again. And
(36:35):
of course they're they're in solidarity as well with the
with the SDF themselves, with the military force. It would
be it would be crazy if they weren't, because yeah,
they are also embedded in their communities. No, they're not
extracted from the society the way that most kind of
state armies are. So yeah, the situation at Tiswine is
still ongoing. And when I was there, it was it
(36:56):
really was the most amazing experience. There were bombings. Well,
I was there and tragically one of the people I
got to know there who was a journalist, his name
was Eggie Brush.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Just less than two weeks after I got back, I
found out that he's also been killed in another drone strike.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
So it was yeah, it's.
Speaker 3 (37:13):
Very very just kind of doesn't It doesn't stop, the
aggression doesn't stop, but nonetheless, people kind of coming together
to resist it doesn't stop either.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
And once I'd been.
Speaker 3 (37:24):
There, it seemed a lot less crazy, or had to
imagine that people would come together around it because you
see like the immense power that it was, and you
see that how everyone here has lost someone, know, like
the vast majority of people here have lost members of
their family. You said yourself, thirteen thousand fallen in the
fight against Isis alone, and since then, like war one
(37:46):
way or another has been going on.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
So people know what lost means.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Already they've already lost, but they're not going to let
that make them step back. They're gonna do their fallen
loved ones justice and continue to stand up in their name.
And yeah, it's a very sort of big thing, but
it's really powerful when you see it in person and
and all that kind of humanity and humor and joy
despite the situation.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
Yeah, no, that is a very unique thing to Curtis Dane,
And like the Kurdish freedom movements, this sort of joy.
I mean, I've been it's very similar in Burma rightly,
where they also do they love to dance, oh well
in a war, and like it is one of the
things that I think, like the joy is hard to explain.
I know we're sort of rating long on time here,
(38:30):
but I just like when people hear Syria and to
exempt when they hear me and Maud or they'll think
of wars, but like you should also think about all
the people who exist outside of the conflict, or who
don't think this outside of it that's the wrong word,
but who are not fighting at the front line. Like,
the experience of revolution is a very joyful one, even
(38:53):
amidst very difficult times. And it's difficult to explain it
if you haven't experienced it because it sounds so juxtaposed,
but it isn't necessarily. The guy have actually really fond
memories of meeting Kurdish people coming into the United States
in the mountains at the time when the United States
was detaining people outdoors in very difficult conditions, and like
(39:14):
dancing with them there at a time when it was miserable.
The ability to salvage joy. It gives you a sense
of sovereignty, I suppose, and I can understand why that's
such an important part of the Curdish freedom movement when
every expression of Curtis's identity has been suppressed for so long,
Like the ability to seize your moments what James Scott
would call like little small acts of resistance, Like it's important.
(39:38):
It's more important I think people understand. And if you're
understanding it from a Western military doctrine, it doesn't fit.
But that's because you're using the wrong framework. Yeah, exactly, Jenny.
If people are interested in following your work about this,
or perhaps they're interested in doing what they can to
support the revolution and what is a challenging time, a
(39:59):
very a very changing time, like how can they do
both of those things?
Speaker 3 (40:03):
Yeah, so well, if they are interested in following the
sort of updates and so on that I've been doing,
I've got Instagram and TikTok channels, which are both at
j Keston.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
I'm assuming you can stick that written form somewhere. Yeah,
we'll put it in the show notes.
Speaker 3 (40:20):
And telegram channel as well if people find it easier
to sort of get Yeah, that's just the most condensed
way to kind of download information. Videos or whatever, which
you can find under the same name, and there's also
links to it on the on Instagram TikTok and on there.
We've got we linked tree that has some suggestions for
if people want to support, like ways to donate, say
(40:41):
to the Kurdish Red Present and stuff like that. And
then specifically, yeah, I mean there is a lot that
people can do and whatever it.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Is, it all starts with getting more I wouldn't say informed,
I would say getting more.
Speaker 3 (40:53):
Connected, right, So getting informed is a part of that,
but not just in the sense of information learning, Like
it's also connecting with like the feeling of things here
and why it's become so important to so many people across.
Speaker 1 (41:07):
The world, not just people from here.
Speaker 3 (41:09):
Yeah, And the more we learn about that them all,
we'll start to see like how we can be a
friend to the movement.
Speaker 1 (41:14):
Here and where how our role can fit. And I
know that there are specifically in America.
Speaker 3 (41:20):
A couple of organizations, is it that there'll be Books
has been really prominent in organizing one of them.
Speaker 1 (41:26):
Yeah, Emergency Committee for Java.
Speaker 3 (41:28):
Emergency Committee for a Java, that's the one. Yeah, I
mean you had emergency in there somewhere. That's definitely worth
looking up and following a lot of the.
Speaker 1 (41:36):
Work that they do.
Speaker 3 (41:37):
And you've also got like think tanks like the Kurdish
Piece Institute that a kind of lobbying, and so yeah,
there are some there is some stuff from coming from
the United States as well, But I think, yeah, the
more people get a chance to kind of learn about
stuff here and see the connection and be able to
see and find themselves in it, and I think that's.
Speaker 1 (41:57):
Got a lot to do with what you were just
speaking about.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Hearing you put so well, I wouldn't extend it much more,
but yeah, like people here, it's really there's always war happening,
and always war kind of filing on top of you,
but that's never what it's about. The question is always
what are you're fighting for and what you're fighting to defend?
And what would you be doing if there was no war.
Everyone here'll always say if there was no war, we'd
(42:19):
still have enough work to do with all the really,
like I was that word ambitious, like social transformation.
Speaker 1 (42:25):
That people here are really committed to.
Speaker 3 (42:26):
Yeah, there's enough going on and it's very big and
as you put it, it's very beautiful and very joyful
and so that's Yeah, that's the bit that I encourage
people to try and learn more about, because that's the
bit that makes you stay and makes people like me
stick around for years finding out more and more and
making friends and getting closer and closer to the communities here.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, I think that's a very good way to put it. So, yeah,
I encourage people to do all that.
Speaker 2 (42:47):
Thank you so much for your time doing I know
it's late there that we really appreciate you joining us today.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
Thank you so much. Cheers.
Speaker 4 (42:56):
It Could Happen Here is a production of Cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from Zone Media, visit our website fool
Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
You listen to podcasts.
Speaker 4 (43:08):
You can now find sources for It Could Happen Here,
listed directly in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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