August 2, 2023 • 39 mins
James talks to Dermot Cosgrove about the human rights abuses committed by the Wagner group in Africa and why these weren’t reported until the group began doing the same thing in Ukraine.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
And everyone. It's me James today and I'm talking to
Dermot Cosgrove about Wagner Wagner, the the Russian Mercenary Group
and their actions in Africa. This is something that I've
kind of tried to pitch for several years with not
much success in the United States media, and I'm sure
lots of other people have two by no means unique
(00:20):
in that. And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media
has become something of an expert in their actions when
things started happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted
to do here was kind of paint a picture of
how they have a long record of human rights abuse,
and Dermot to more expert in Africa, so that's what
we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course, and
I just wanted to give some more information. So we
(00:42):
recorded this on last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first
of August, and we talked a little bit about the
Coup Nigier, which has continued and since we recorded. Ive
Geenny Pregaorsian, who of course is the head of Wagner,
the founder of Wagner, that oligarch is in charge of
that private military contracting group made a statements sort of
(01:04):
not exactly saying like oh, yeah, we did this coup,
but more like saying, oh cool, I see you've had
a coup. What you could use is a group of
mercenary Russians who are prepared to do incredible and horrific
violence on your behalf and let us know. We'll roll up. Also,
since then, Ekowas, which is the Economic Community of West
African State, it's a West African block there has threatened
(01:26):
intervention in Nize if they don't sort of return to
a democratic process. And then Mali andned Bookina Faso to
other countries that are run by military government's military more
or less hunters have threatened have said they'll stand with Nize,
stand with the Nize coup. So it threatens to destabilize
again the whole region. Right, You'll see lots of misinformation
(01:49):
about this on Twitter. I've seen a ton of stuff
from like just tanky accounts who don't fully have a
grasp on what's happening in this part of the world.
And I think it's quite dismissive to just use Africa
to further your whatever your political agenda is, rather than
treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living
(02:10):
in these countries right es between nich Share, where people
are already often struggling to get by, really struggling to
make endst meat like sanctions on this country will hurt them.
Tanctions on this country will hurt the poorest people in
this country. A military dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality
of life for people, and I would like to see
people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument
(02:31):
about decononization, like it's That's not what's happening here. What's
happening is the powerful people have wanted more power, and
they've taken that at the expense of the quality of
life and often the lives of other people. Obviously, with
Mali and Bikina Faso saying that they would like support
ni Share, those are both governments that struggle to support
(02:54):
themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies,
and like our movement, so you know, no, hugely I
guess serious threat, but still very destabilizing and again like
this will have negative impacts for everyone living there, which
is the thing I'd like to focus on. So we're
going to start here with introducing himself and then we'll
(03:16):
go from there.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
My name is Jermatt Cosgrove. I'm a French from Legion veteran.
I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen
ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East
and a little bit of South Asia as a security
consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies,
(03:42):
infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for
not quite as long. But one of the things that
I remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise
of this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It
was just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally,
(04:09):
stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I
know that you were obviously on the ground looking at this,
So can you maybe just start with when you sort
of first became aware of them and what you were seeing.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, I first became aware of them with their activities
in the Central African Republic when the when the Mayhem
broke up there a few years ago and the EU
started sending in troops. There's quite a lot of heavy fighting.
Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still
quite a lot of fighting going on. Next thing, these
(04:45):
Russians shot up and it was just a little bit
kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them in operating in Syria,
but you know, next thing, they're in, of all places,
the Central African Republic, which is a it's high is
you know, a little bit of a backwater in the
(05:05):
middle of Africa. It's it's quashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi,
the Congo, places like that, and it's historically it's it's been.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
There's always been a French French presence.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
There, but it's always been a place where there's been
quite a bit of conflict around it.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah. Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah, yeah,
a lot of a lot of different people. It's not
an identity that like fits with with identities on the
ground and necessarily so, yeah, what was their role there?
What were they they doing as like a mercenary or
private military contracting group.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows.
They were they had come in. Apparently they were supposedly
there to train the governments, the Republican Guard of the
of the presidential Guard. But they were also there was
also words starting to leak out where they were involved
in the Diamid mines and they you know, they were
(06:10):
they were moving all over the country.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
They were heavily involved in militias.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Then words started coming out about, you know, there was
murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias
and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this story broke
where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd been following
the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and I think
(06:37):
the last thing that we've seen of them was that
they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There
was just they disappeared in the bush, and that was
I suppose that was kind of the first peak that
these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there had
been a company in Russia years ago who were the
(06:58):
Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically Afghan veterans.
Well they operated kind of in the shady oli art
section of royal security in Russia itself. But Biber Group
were a completely different animal. You could tell from the
right from the start these were they had a different model.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to
even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives
to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you,
like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and
lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone
with a South African accent or someone who would claim
to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to
(07:40):
you and that was their industry, and they would say
some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like
hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking
I don't want to have anything to do with this.
But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by
any means. But yeah, like there was that there was
there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry
as sort of the civil warring Columbia became that these
(08:03):
guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to
be operating more like on behalf of governments or people
who would be in government, who would like to be
in government. Yeah, yeah, explain how they do shit just differently.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be
familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and
Executive Welcomes business model was when they operated, they went
to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out
(08:40):
your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a
paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum
for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage so
they would clear Like Executive Wecomes cleared out some of
the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think they're
going rate with something like fifteen sent. Wagner groups seem
(09:01):
to have done that, taken that model, but at the
same time they've rolled in a little bit of the
the Blackwater type idea in in Iraq where they were
operating us an arm of of you know, Blackwater, operating
as an arm US government. They were Paul Bremner's personal
guard and Or Wagner seemed to have combined the two
(09:28):
along with making Hollywood movies, because they've made they've made
a couple of movies, one about Central Africa and there,
you know, these rambo esque kind of movies and it's
it's just it's like, what the hell is going on here?
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't
divorce it from that kind of like global war on
terror for one of a better phrase like era, Yeah,
kind of cold that developed around the U Special Forces,
and they're like, it's why you can buy navy ce
or soap, right, and like they've they tried to do
(10:07):
a similar thing but with a private military contractor do
you know, like the what's the composition of these most
like PMCs from I guess Western nations will be ex
military people. Is that the case with Wagner or where
are they getting people from?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen of there.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
The people that brought in is that you've got a
core group of Russians who come from the more elite units.
Now they've been they've been really assigned to the money
making contracts in Africa, so you know, they they've operated
alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is that
(10:49):
if they do take control of zones in the Marian government,
disastering them a percentage of mineral mineral section and whatever
in the in the region. They've there's also been talk
of their blatant intimidation and protection rackets of other Western
you know, Western companies working in the Sahel, so they'll
(11:10):
rock up and kind of we'll look after you isis
or a kinda won't get you if you pay as
a fee. And then if the company goes well, you
know that's crazy. Then you know, suddenly attacks started happening.
But they seem to be a core in in Africa
at least, and in Libya where they were heavily involved,
there was a core group of Russians who were there,
(11:34):
and then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized,
lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya,
especially during the during the fighting there when they fought
for half darkly for a half there, you had you know,
they brought in Syrians, they were known to have in
(11:55):
a few other different nationalities of basically eyed. They gathered
in other countries and offer jobs. Yeah, so you had
I think there was about fifteen hundred two thousand Assyrians
at one point.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Because there's these huge numbers.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Of Wagner kind of been bounded a boat on maps
and stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors.
Actual proper Wagner personnel wouldn't be massive numbers, but they've
got you know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from the
like to Syria or other places that they've been.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
In, right, Yeah, and they another thing I guess it
was unique about them with that they were obsessed with
posting on telegram like I've never seen just incredibly online
to include like evidence of their war crimes, right, which
I guess sometimes not at war at all, human rights
abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, yeah, we should
(12:55):
probably talk about some of those, just so people can
get a sense of I think what I'd like people
to take from this, just to like be explicit about it,
I suppose, is that, like all this stuff was happening
in Africa, there was no lack of evidence or people
trying to say and it was not paid attention to
by the government or media really, especially in the US,
(13:15):
but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly got sad
when it happened in Ukraine because there was happening to
people who were more valued. And I think we can
we'll keep sucking up like that if we keep ignoring especially.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm shocked
in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions put
on because there's been there's been two U of AN
investigations into their activities.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
There was the the murders.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
They were complicit in the murder or actively participated in
the murder of over three hundred millions in a village
only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation.
They've been phound to have been there been participants in it.
And there's nothing. And I'm you know, you're not seeing
any UN sanctions. You're not you know, you're not seeing
anything going on. The world seems to be turning a
(14:07):
blind eye to it. In Libya, I mean, the BBC
had had a report, a special report where they'd actually
found the iPad of one of the Wagner operators with
tons and tons and tons of evidence as to what
they were doing, numerous human rights abuses, and again it's
(14:28):
just like, yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
We won't really worry about it. Ops Ukraine.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think
if you're just a consumer of you know, the New
York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from?
They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe,
And because our news is very focused on certain countries,
and certain things. It came as a shock to people,
(14:55):
and maybe it just explained like obviously that human rights
abuse has been again in Syria. I don't think I
need to detail that. There are videos that people can
find on their own time if they want to. Yeah,
some brutal executions in such but yeah, could you like
(15:21):
at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've where
they've done that in Africa, I can think of three
or four countries at the top of my head.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the
big one, which I think was three hundred civilians were murdered.
They basically locked up in a village I think it
was it's Moon or Mooney Monia as the name of
the village in Mali. Yeah, they rocked up with the
with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and
(15:50):
murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And that was there was absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
One percent guaranteed there was Wagner operators did murder and
behead local villagers. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there
was there was an attack against a convoy which included
Wagner personnel and their responsib was to rock into a
(16:18):
village and execute ten people. So you know that's two cases.
That again, unless you're looking, unless you're kind of aware
of the certain sources that are available and looking at
localized local journalists who are in these in these countries,
it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to life.
(16:39):
You know, there's Central Africa there, there's been rapes, murders,
there's been mass rapes, there's you know, there's been executions, torture.
You know, it's just off the charts. In Mali there
is actually unknown and it's becoming famous in Mali. There
is the torture house inside one of their bases in Mali,
and it's becoming it's widely known as there.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
You know, it's more the.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Multinational organizations, the U N, the you all know about
its presence. They all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing.
There's still nothing to mean done.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah, and I think it's easy. Like I think that
happened if you remember when they were right in France,
was that people would be like, oh, well, like you know,
France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously
comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible,
but there are other forces. Like I remember someone positing
that like Mali had been liberated from French control. Uh,
(17:38):
France left, but like these guys came like it wasn't
as if you know, there was a you know, a
democratic transition of power or you know, like desirable outcome.
And I think, yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
I mean, I mean, I mean even this morning they
with the with the coup in Niger. You know, there
was a put up by one of the Russian Twitter
accounts claiming that the coup had been orchestrated and managed
by Wagner who were liberating these from the from the coloneliness.
(18:14):
It's just like, yeah, they actually believe there are you
just do they actually believe their own stuff?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
It's just amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it,
but it seems to be very well targeted to get
people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole
sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that
what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denatifying. And when
you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa
(18:42):
and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there. It's
very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it.
And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an
immedia thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think people
may not be aware of. Is the one thing that
has been reported a lot. It's a heavy, heavy losses
(19:03):
have taken in Ukraine. Right often in like call the
almost piano battalions that they have like that, they'll have
convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain, Like
I think this might lead people to believe that they're
not capable of doing what they've done in Africa for
a long time, But that's that's not correct, right, They're
still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still doing
(19:28):
their terrible ship in Africa.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, there's been even recently there was a lot of
flights being picked up moving in and out of Africa
which were Wagner associated aircraft And at first it was
you know, this happened around the time they made them
move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin and there
(19:53):
was a lot of questions as to as a pullout
of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia.
And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in.
But it looks like there's been a ramp up again
in a lot of African countries.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So it looks like they're upping the personnel now. Whether
it's they've they've cut some.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Kind of deal where they're now just gonna be a
money maker, I'm not quite sure, but you know, that'll.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Be remained to be seen. If they have Orchestra Niger,
which is possible, then it's clearly kind of a ramp
up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up
local populations because they whipped up anti French sentiment in
both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even though and
(20:43):
you know the French did the French did bomb kind
of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians and stuff,
but they the massive reaction to two Leasons Excelence was
technique Wagner at the time.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right,
It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this
process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people,
and often in ways that are not that distinct from
the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty
two hundred years ago and real like you've detailed brutal
(21:27):
human rights abuses and it all extends all to extract
wealth and resources from Africa in a very similar way
to what we've seen before, but in a less formal way,
I guess than you know with French and British colonialism.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate
im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way,
and it's you know, the money is flowing into the
pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I mean the there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Was a I was in a of a discussion this
morning about about Niger and someone made a comment about
there being oh there's not the if you look at them,
the Sahel map and the mineral wealth that there's there's
more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction further south
into the Congo. But the thing is in and I've
(22:21):
worked in Mauritania. You know, you have Mauritania which is
three times the size of France with a population of
four million, and yet only one percent of the country
has actually been surrouted for its mineral wealth, and it
already has massive gold, iron and iron ore deposits and
copper deposits. If you take that, if you go over
into Burkino Faso, it has huge gold gold deposits which
(22:46):
are under explored. It's relatively the vast majority will be
artisanal mining. The same with Mali. And if you go
across into Nigir, you've got the huge uranium mine which
is a keystone of the of the French nuclear industry Arlett,
which would be worth a fortune to whoever would control
(23:06):
the territory.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
So it's.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
It's a very colonialist I suppose manual to what the
what Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's
very much a corporate model as opposed to coming in
and establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind
of administration and governments and stuff like that too loocle go.
(23:33):
But they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know,
they will manipulate and and embed themselves with the local
military who you know, if you you know you've got Mali,
it's it's governed now by a military military junta Niger
is likely to be the same, and you can have
Brookino Faso.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
It's not quite far off that either.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And yeah, so they're if you don't in these countries,
if you won't have the backing of the military, you've
got nothing.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
You're not going to be in power.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So yeah, and then if they could throw the military
and then they control it in power, right and as
long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire
to extract wealth, and they don't care.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And yeah, and it's you know the other part of
it is they're they're bringing in all the toys for
the for these god for these governments as well. They're
importing drawns, they're importing weaponry, helicopters, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, let's talk about a little bit, because that's something
they seem to have. Like Eric Prince tried to get
himself a plane, right and he didn't really do very well.
And that, like their access to military hardware is it's unprecedented.
So like where they're able to obtain all that.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Well, they're definitely they're definitely a collusion with I mean,
whatever tensions there are in Ukraine between the Russian military
and Wagner, there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Russian military when it comes to secure and hardware for Africa.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, I mean they there was brand new twenty fours
unloaded in Mali only last year and they met a
very very big show of the French leaving and these
and these helicopters arriving. So you know, there's there's been
Turkish built drones are starting to are coming in left,
(25:27):
right and center across all with the aid and.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Shipment by Wagner.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
So they're they have incredible with Russian produced equipment. They
have incredible access access to it, and it can only
come from one place, it only it can only come
from the military. And you know, doubt you know, we've
we've seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that
are fifty years old because there's nothing on their basis.
(26:05):
Well kind of it's very clear that there was nothing
on their basis because these weapons are shown are being
transported for use in Africa.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right, They're still
selling planes, they're still selling munitions there, and it's yeah, yeah,
like it's it's almost like a I don't know that
there's like a corporate and a state structure, and sometimes
it seems like especially well we see that in the
US too, I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires,
they're parallel. One doesn't one doesn't have sort of over
(26:35):
the other. One thing I do want to get into
is this culture that exists was in Wagner that is
an extreme glorification of violence, right and in a glorification
of sometimes of Nazism of other sort of related kind
of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies.
(26:56):
And you can see a lot in the telegram. Can
you speak atle bit to that.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, it's been there's definitely been an element of these
guys have been recruited from right wing in the in
the Russian military, and we already know there was some
of these units were heavily involved with the with the
Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyway,
(27:22):
and you know, we've seen across like it's been hugely
in evidence across some of the some of the said
towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner had
left graffiti of you know, the sonon Rand and a
lot of these other Nazi symbols, and there is this
whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I
(27:44):
mean the executions, beatings, you know, the torture of local
non white people in there. You know that they're coming
upcoming contact. But we've seen it in Syria, brutal executions.
It's a very much a white supremacist.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Far right.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
It's not even undertones because it's so it's so blatant,
it's right in your face. I mean, they just don't
hide it on their telegram channels, they don't hide it
where they go. You know, we've seen military patches that
they're wearing, which are you know, extreme right, graffiti they
leave behind which is extreme right. You know, even I
haven't seen the movies they've met, but I believe they're
(28:26):
they're actually there's there's a lot of image there as well,
which would be you're right up the street of kind
of neo fascist organizations as well.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, it certainly seems they're pretty expective about it, and
no one they don't care. I mean, yeah, for Goose,
you're not supposed to be called it Wagner because it
was Hitler's favorite composer.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Right, Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Like some of the there's there's crossover between some of
the other ruten far right or organizations and some of
the you know, some of these units, these far right
units who have been who are in in Ukraine and
Wagner there is a kind of cross pollination personnel as well.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, yeah, it certainly seems they sort of go back
and forth with the military. It's not like I think
people would say there's more of a distinct entity than
it perhaps is.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, they're they're not They're not a.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
There's guys from Wagner will show up with with other
organizations from time to time, but then they seem to
kind of drift back to Wagner. And seeing that especially
in Ukraine in sort as well in Libya, there was
there was guys that have identified who were operating in
you know, with Wagner in Libya who definitely had you know,
(29:47):
had operated with other organizations as well. You know, they've
been I think there was a number of them were
had been photographed that had actually been id during some
of the football violence in Marcill during the European coupled
a few years ago. So you know, they're they're in
this in this circle and they're they are moving over
(30:09):
and back between different organizations. But again it's it's a
massive shower identity.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, it's yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of
the sort of armed extreme right. Yeah, has been yeah,
sort of festering for a long time, unnoticed by a
lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah, yeah, You've
mentioned that if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things,
(30:35):
which I think is right because it's not you know,
it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where
would you like, where would you go for coverage, especially
let's say, you know, parts of Africa are you working?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I use I would use Twitter quite a lot to
to look at what what local journalists are doing in
you know, in places like Mali and the year I
think I started off, I started off using Twitter in
Yemen when I was working there because the you know,
I was fifty kilometers from a town that was entirely
(31:13):
controlled by al Qaeda, and one of them was on
Twitter that they were all posting on Twitter, and you know,
there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on
Twitter as well, so you got to see in almost
real time what was happening.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
In these places. Yeah, and when there was.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
No other media really and I carried on using Twitter
and then because I do write security report, you know,
digging around and you had there's a couple of online
and as analysts and as people who are on who
cover kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite
(31:53):
a lot in the help okay. Yeah, so you would
have like the likes of War No War and people
like that were very good on the arm side of things.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, he's very good at he keeps an eye on
me mr as well.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, there's a few useful accounts. I think you do
share them on your own accounts sometimes as well. I've
seen I do.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, from time to time, I'll share them on my own.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, what is yours? If people want to follow along,
pitch your feet.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
It's Dermott and couse growth all right, so d or
Mot and then calls growth COSG or orb. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Oneful. It is one of those things that like we
talk about, you know in many ways, where people spend
too much time on Twitter and that you know, when
it dies it will be nice. But it is something
I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago.
But I remember when going to Rwanda. One of the
(32:49):
things that they ask you is that you've verified on Twitter.
This was before you could buy a verification for seven
dollars or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people
to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives sort
of like especially in places with the government of hostility journalism,
it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes,
you know, make them a little bit safer. Also to
(33:10):
be able to share these things. Yeah, yeah, and losing that,
like there's no other platform that does that.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
No, there isn't that.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's a pity that it's that it's actually gone down
the road. It's gone down. I mean, I would be
I work a month on, month off, so I would
be a big Twitter user when when I'm at work
because you know, gathering information from my reports and so,
and then at home I'm not on it so much.
(33:39):
But you know, for local journalists and activists, it you know,
it's a fantastic It's the whole idea is fantastic because
they are able to get that message out. They are
more visible in countries where they've got repressive regimes, and
it keeps an eye on them and you know, the
more visibility they have. It wouldn't be one hundred percent safe,
(34:01):
but they are a little bit safer.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in me and Mari
as well, just sort of it's only out to the world,
you know, the Irrawadi and all these other publications which
are able to get things out, and lots of those
people are in hiding, you know, like they can't operate
in cities, and they're able to get things out to
the world. So like, for that alone, it's valuable. And yeah,
(34:27):
it's a shame that it seems to go anywhere it's going.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, I think I think there was even the you know,
during the well even currently, there's still some still some
people in Afghanistan who are it's their only outlet to
get information out about what's happening under the Taliban regime.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, I've in touch with a few people in Afghanistania
that it's you know, that would all be lost. I
wouldn't have ever found them otherwise or some of them
know through friends. Yeah, and I want a fine chuck
by asking like this. The stuff that Wagner has done
in Africa is repulsive. Stuff done in Syria is disgusting,
Like what if if you had your your like, if
(35:08):
you had your way, like, how can people or how
can governments or what can we do to stop this
kind of you know, human rights abuse.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I think there's as much pressure should be can that
can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and
senators that if people go to them there in the
UK government, you know, I'm irish.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
You know, we have a long history of.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Peacekeeping and stuff like that, and you know, investigations of
human rights abuses, so you know, it's putting pressure on
your politicians that actually needs to be taken, you know.
And the U N I'm I'm not a massive vanity
win because they have been so ineffectual in places. I mean,
my my brother was in was in Lebanon on three
separate occasions with the with the unutiful force. I can
(36:00):
described this, you know, one hand clapping because they even
haven't strong their own people.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
But you know, there there.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Isn't outside of the EU which can enforce sanctions on them.
You know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone
associated with Wagner.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Yeah, and there needs to be more.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I mean, you know, the the EU has pretty much
been kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be
more a better relationship built up with these with these
organized these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are,
there is no real other choice. But there has to
be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If
(36:41):
you know, journalists, get to journalists, ask them why isn't
he Why aren't these questions being asked? Is this? You know,
why is it only being the focus? And I'm a
big supporter of Ukraine, but why is it only since
Ukraine that we're seeing Wagner televisions? Yeah, Yeah, they've been
They've been murdering people, they were putting you know, they
(37:03):
were pubbly trapping kids, toys and literally as they retreat
a lot of out of Western Libia. Yet none of
that appeared, you know, the one BBC report and it
came out and it died afterwards, which you know, is
you know, horrendous.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
You know, this needs to be They need to be
Harmard left bart the center.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, and I think a lot You're right, A lot
of that comes from if you find editors, you can
ask them why they haven't cover at this what is
happening in Africa, Like they were putting human beings and
holes in the ground.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I mean, you know, if you're on Twitter, jump on Twitter,
follow the follow editors, news organizations.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
And you know, tweeter at them. Just why aren't you
covering this?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Make them say or make people explain why this doesn't
matter as much? In the same with your politicians. I know,
sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but like I
can't put sanctions on them, you know, and I can't.
I don't have the ability to project force.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah, and I don't think there's nothing that Wagner produced
that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going
to buy you know, I'm not going to buy this
product because it impacts They don't care. They're they're not
selling to the consumer. They're you know, they're stealing to
put in their own buckets.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yes, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was. That was
wonderful there. That's Is there anything you want to else
you on a plug or anywhere else people can find
you learn out more, learn more about the stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Well, well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best past.
I have kind of promised myself to do a little
bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in
because because I work in North Africa, and even though
I'm not in the Hell itself, the Hell has been
It's always been a massive area of interest for me.
(38:52):
So I've kind of, I probably will kind of flip
my my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's
going on and across the health.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah, so I'm on there.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I've got I've got an Instagram account, but that's only
really if you like pictures of dogs.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yeah, that's what it's good for. Yeah, Well, thank you
very much for your time, Devic. We appreciate it, and yeah,
I already learn a bit more about this.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
And everyone. It's me James today and I'm talking to
Dermot Cosgrove about Wagner Wagner, the the Russian Mercenary Group
and their actions in Africa. This is something that I've
kind of tried to pitch for several years with not
much success in the United States media, and I'm sure
lots of other people have two by no means unique
(00:20):
in that. And suddenly, obviously everyone in the corporate media
has become something of an expert in their actions when
things started happening in Ukraine. And so what we wanted
to do here was kind of paint a picture of
how they have a long record of human rights abuse,
and Dermot to more expert in Africa, so that's what
we're talking about, but also in Syria, of course, and
I just wanted to give some more information. So we
(00:42):
recorded this on last Friday. Today it's Tuesday, the first
of August, and we talked a little bit about the
Coup Nigier, which has continued and since we recorded. Ive
Geenny Pregaorsian, who of course is the head of Wagner,
the founder of Wagner, that oligarch is in charge of
that private military contracting group made a statements sort of
(01:04):
not exactly saying like oh, yeah, we did this coup,
but more like saying, oh cool, I see you've had
a coup. What you could use is a group of
mercenary Russians who are prepared to do incredible and horrific
violence on your behalf and let us know. We'll roll up. Also,
since then, Ekowas, which is the Economic Community of West
African State, it's a West African block there has threatened
(01:26):
intervention in Nize if they don't sort of return to
a democratic process. And then Mali andned Bookina Faso to
other countries that are run by military government's military more
or less hunters have threatened have said they'll stand with Nize,
stand with the Nize coup. So it threatens to destabilize
again the whole region. Right, You'll see lots of misinformation
(01:49):
about this on Twitter. I've seen a ton of stuff
from like just tanky accounts who don't fully have a
grasp on what's happening in this part of the world.
And I think it's quite dismissive to just use Africa
to further your whatever your political agenda is, rather than
treating this as a tragedy that will impact people living
(02:10):
in these countries right es between nich Share, where people
are already often struggling to get by, really struggling to
make endst meat like sanctions on this country will hurt them.
Tanctions on this country will hurt the poorest people in
this country. A military dictatorship rarely delivers a better quality
of life for people, and I would like to see
people focusing on that and not on some stupid argument
(02:31):
about decononization, like it's That's not what's happening here. What's
happening is the powerful people have wanted more power, and
they've taken that at the expense of the quality of
life and often the lives of other people. Obviously, with
Mali and Bikina Faso saying that they would like support
ni Share, those are both governments that struggle to support
(02:54):
themselves and defend their own people and capitals from Islamist insurgencies,
and like our movement, so you know, no, hugely I
guess serious threat, but still very destabilizing and again like
this will have negative impacts for everyone living there, which
is the thing I'd like to focus on. So we're
going to start here with introducing himself and then we'll
(03:16):
go from there.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
My name is Jermatt Cosgrove. I'm a French from Legion veteran.
I was six years French Foreign Legion and since nineteen
ninety six I've worked across Africa and the Middle East
and a little bit of South Asia as a security
consultant and field security advisor, mainly with oil and gas companies,
(03:42):
infrastructure companies, but also some work with the media.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, so I've been a journalist covering that field for
not quite as long. But one of the things that
I remember seeing in a pre pandemic is this rise
of this Russian mercenary group, bargainer group in Africa. It
was just not an area of interest in any US publication. Generally,
(04:09):
stories in Africa are very hard to sell. But I
know that you were obviously on the ground looking at this,
So can you maybe just start with when you sort
of first became aware of them and what you were seeing.
Speaker 2 (04:22):
Well, I first became aware of them with their activities
in the Central African Republic when the when the Mayhem
broke up there a few years ago and the EU
started sending in troops. There's quite a lot of heavy fighting.
Then it stabilized a little bit, but there was still
quite a lot of fighting going on. Next thing, these
(04:45):
Russians shot up and it was just a little bit
kind of Yeah, I'd heard about them in operating in Syria,
but you know, next thing, they're in, of all places,
the Central African Republic, which is a it's high is
you know, a little bit of a backwater in the
(05:05):
middle of Africa. It's it's quashed in between Chad, Rwanda, Burundi,
the Congo, places like that, and it's historically it's it's been.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
There's always been a French French presence.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
There, but it's always been a place where there's been
quite a bit of conflict around it.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
Yeah. Yeah, not like a consolidated like nation state really yeah, yeah,
a lot of a lot of different people. It's not
an identity that like fits with with identities on the
ground and necessarily so, yeah, what was their role there?
What were they they doing as like a mercenary or
private military contracting group.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
Well, they they were really operating a bit in the shadows.
They were they had come in. Apparently they were supposedly
there to train the governments, the Republican Guard of the
of the presidential Guard. But they were also there was
also words starting to leak out where they were involved
in the Diamid mines and they you know, they were
(06:10):
they were moving all over the country.
Speaker 3 (06:11):
They were heavily involved in militias.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
Then words started coming out about, you know, there was
murders on checkpoints that were joint checkpoints between government militias
and Wagner Group operatives. And next thing, this story broke
where three journalists, three Russian journalists disappeared. They'd been following
the activities of Wagner in Central Africa, and I think
(06:37):
the last thing that we've seen of them was that
they were stopped at a checkpoint and then gone. There
was just they disappeared in the bush, and that was
I suppose that was kind of the first peak that
these are a nasty bunch of operators. And there had
been a company in Russia years ago who were the
(06:58):
Alpha Group, and they had basically they were basically Afghan veterans.
Well they operated kind of in the shady oli art
section of royal security in Russia itself. But Biber Group
were a completely different animal. You could tell from the
right from the start these were they had a different model.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
Yeah, very much so, and like a different model to
even like there are various I guess, like national perspectives
to private military contracting. Like there was a time when you,
like you could sit down in a hotel, bar and
lots of places in Africa and be assured that someone
with a South African accent or someone who would claim
to be from Rhodesia would like come and talk to
(07:40):
you and that was their industry, and they would say
some racist shit. It's hard for me to not like
hear a South African accent and be like, oh, fucking
I don't want to have anything to do with this.
But obviously that doesn't define everyone from South Africa by
any means. But yeah, like there was that there was
there were a lot of Colombian people in that industry
as sort of the civil warring Columbia became that these
(08:03):
guys are kind of different, right, Like they seem to
be operating more like on behalf of governments or people
who would be in government, who would like to be
in government. Yeah, yeah, explain how they do shit just differently.
Speaker 2 (08:20):
Well, they seem to have taken the well you'll be
familiar with executive outcomes the South African Mercenary Organization and
Executive Welcomes business model was when they operated, they went
to the client and said, right, okay, we'll sort out
(08:40):
your problem, but we want a percentage. It wasn't a
paycheck or a contract kind of a grade dollar sum
for a contract. It was they wanted a percentage so
they would clear Like Executive Wecomes cleared out some of
the diamond fields in and Gola, and I think they're
going rate with something like fifteen sent. Wagner groups seem
(09:01):
to have done that, taken that model, but at the
same time they've rolled in a little bit of the
the Blackwater type idea in in Iraq where they were
operating us an arm of of you know, Blackwater, operating
as an arm US government. They were Paul Bremner's personal
guard and Or Wagner seemed to have combined the two
(09:28):
along with making Hollywood movies, because they've made they've made
a couple of movies, one about Central Africa and there,
you know, these rambo esque kind of movies and it's
it's just it's like, what the hell is going on here?
Speaker 1 (09:46):
It's very strange. It's like, I think we maybe can't
divorce it from that kind of like global war on
terror for one of a better phrase like era, Yeah,
kind of cold that developed around the U Special Forces,
and they're like, it's why you can buy navy ce
or soap, right, and like they've they tried to do
(10:07):
a similar thing but with a private military contractor do
you know, like the what's the composition of these most
like PMCs from I guess Western nations will be ex
military people. Is that the case with Wagner or where
are they getting people from?
Speaker 3 (10:22):
Yeah, it's it's from what I've seen of there.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
The people that brought in is that you've got a
core group of Russians who come from the more elite units.
Now they've been they've been really assigned to the money
making contracts in Africa, so you know, they they've operated
alongside Malian truce and the whole idea there is that
(10:49):
if they do take control of zones in the Marian government,
disastering them a percentage of mineral mineral section and whatever
in the in the region. They've there's also been talk
of their blatant intimidation and protection rackets of other Western
you know, Western companies working in the Sahel, so they'll
(11:10):
rock up and kind of we'll look after you isis
or a kinda won't get you if you pay as
a fee. And then if the company goes well, you
know that's crazy. Then you know, suddenly attacks started happening.
But they seem to be a core in in Africa
at least, and in Libya where they were heavily involved,
there was a core group of Russians who were there,
(11:34):
and then surrounding them there was kind of lesser specialized,
lesser specialized troops, lesser elite troops. And then in Libya,
especially during the during the fighting there when they fought
for half darkly for a half there, you had you know,
they brought in Syrians, they were known to have in
(11:55):
a few other different nationalities of basically eyed. They gathered
in other countries and offer jobs. Yeah, so you had
I think there was about fifteen hundred two thousand Assyrians
at one point.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
Because there's these huge numbers.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
Of Wagner kind of been bounded a boat on maps
and stuff like that on the Internet, and it's smoking mirrors.
Actual proper Wagner personnel wouldn't be massive numbers, but they've
got you know, they're bringing these almost auxiliaries from the
like to Syria or other places that they've been.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
In, right, Yeah, and they another thing I guess it
was unique about them with that they were obsessed with
posting on telegram like I've never seen just incredibly online
to include like evidence of their war crimes, right, which
I guess sometimes not at war at all, human rights
abuses would probably be more accurate. Yeah, yeah, we should
(12:55):
probably talk about some of those, just so people can
get a sense of I think what I'd like people
to take from this, just to like be explicit about it,
I suppose, is that, like all this stuff was happening
in Africa, there was no lack of evidence or people
trying to say and it was not paid attention to
by the government or media really, especially in the US,
(13:15):
but also elsewhere. And then every already suddenly got sad
when it happened in Ukraine because there was happening to
people who were more valued. And I think we can
we'll keep sucking up like that if we keep ignoring especially.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, I mean, I'm I'm shocked
in a way that there hasn't been heavier sanctions put
on because there's been there's been two U of AN
investigations into their activities.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
There was the the murders.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
They were complicit in the murder or actively participated in
the murder of over three hundred millions in a village
only a few months ago. There's been a UN investigation.
They've been phound to have been there been participants in it.
And there's nothing. And I'm you know, you're not seeing
any UN sanctions. You're not you know, you're not seeing
anything going on. The world seems to be turning a
(14:07):
blind eye to it. In Libya, I mean, the BBC
had had a report, a special report where they'd actually
found the iPad of one of the Wagner operators with
tons and tons and tons of evidence as to what
they were doing, numerous human rights abuses, and again it's
(14:28):
just like, yeah, that's fine.
Speaker 3 (14:30):
We won't really worry about it. Ops Ukraine.
Speaker 1 (14:34):
Yeah, and it's it seems shocking to people. I think
if you're just a consumer of you know, the New
York Times or something, Wow, where did these guys come from?
They're terrible, But they've been there for years, decade maybe,
And because our news is very focused on certain countries,
and certain things. It came as a shock to people,
(14:55):
and maybe it just explained like obviously that human rights
abuse has been again in Syria. I don't think I
need to detail that. There are videos that people can
find on their own time if they want to. Yeah,
some brutal executions in such but yeah, could you like
(15:21):
at least sort of enumerate some instances where they've where
they've done that in Africa, I can think of three
or four countries at the top of my head.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Well, there's there's Valley as the instant one. There's the
big one, which I think was three hundred civilians were murdered.
They basically locked up in a village I think it
was it's Moon or Mooney Monia as the name of
the village in Mali. Yeah, they rocked up with the
with Malian troops and proceeded to hunt for terrorists and
(15:50):
murdered three hundred people, including beheadings and whatnot.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
And that was there was absolutely.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
One percent guaranteed there was Wagner operators did murder and
behead local villagers. Six weeks ago, eight weeks ago, there
was there was an attack against a convoy which included
Wagner personnel and their responsib was to rock into a
(16:18):
village and execute ten people. So you know that's two cases.
That again, unless you're looking, unless you're kind of aware
of the certain sources that are available and looking at
localized local journalists who are in these in these countries,
it's not popping up anywhere. It's just not coming to life.
(16:39):
You know, there's Central Africa there, there's been rapes, murders,
there's been mass rapes, there's you know, there's been executions, torture.
You know, it's just off the charts. In Mali there
is actually unknown and it's becoming famous in Mali. There
is the torture house inside one of their bases in Mali,
and it's becoming it's widely known as there.
Speaker 3 (17:03):
You know, it's more the.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Multinational organizations, the U N, the you all know about
its presence. They all have the evidence, and yet there's nothing.
There's still nothing to mean done.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yeah, and I think it's easy. Like I think that
happened if you remember when they were right in France,
was that people would be like, oh, well, like you know,
France is in all these countries in Africa, which obviously
comes from a legacy of colonialism, which was violent and terrible,
but there are other forces. Like I remember someone positing
that like Mali had been liberated from French control. Uh,
(17:38):
France left, but like these guys came like it wasn't
as if you know, there was a you know, a
democratic transition of power or you know, like desirable outcome.
And I think, yeah, well.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
I mean, I mean, I mean even this morning they
with the with the coup in Niger. You know, there
was a put up by one of the Russian Twitter
accounts claiming that the coup had been orchestrated and managed
by Wagner who were liberating these from the from the coloneliness.
(18:14):
It's just like, yeah, they actually believe there are you
just do they actually believe their own stuff?
Speaker 3 (18:21):
It's just amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Well it's very well I don't know if they believe it,
but it seems to be very well targeted to get
people to believe it online. Right, Like there's this whole
sort of hammer and sickle in biocommunity that thinks that
what Russia is doing in Ukraine is denatifying. And when
you couple with a lack of media coverage of Africa
(18:42):
and a lack of knowledge of what's happened there. It's
very understandable that people sort of don't quite grasp it.
And I think that's that's that's an education thing, an
immedia thing. Yeah, but it's I think I think people
may not be aware of. Is the one thing that
has been reported a lot. It's a heavy, heavy losses
(19:03):
have taken in Ukraine. Right often in like call the
almost piano battalions that they have like that, they'll have
convicts and things like that, Right, can you explain, Like
I think this might lead people to believe that they're
not capable of doing what they've done in Africa for
a long time, But that's that's not correct, right, They're
still sending I guess operators to Africa. They're still doing
(19:28):
their terrible ship in Africa.
Speaker 2 (19:31):
Yeah, there's been even recently there was a lot of
flights being picked up moving in and out of Africa
which were Wagner associated aircraft And at first it was
you know, this happened around the time they made them
move towards back into Russia, towards towards Putin and there
(19:53):
was a lot of questions as to as a pullout
of personnel to support their what's going on in Russia.
And then it stopped and the flights started coming back in.
But it looks like there's been a ramp up again
in a lot of African countries.
Speaker 3 (20:08):
So it looks like they're upping the personnel now. Whether
it's they've they've cut some.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Kind of deal where they're now just gonna be a
money maker, I'm not quite sure, but you know, that'll.
Speaker 3 (20:19):
Be remained to be seen. If they have Orchestra Niger,
which is possible, then it's clearly kind of a ramp
up of operations. They're very, very skilled in whipping up
local populations because they whipped up anti French sentiment in
both Mali and in Brookino Fasso. And even though and
(20:43):
you know the French did the French did bomb kind
of drone strikes which you know, did kill civilians and stuff,
but they the massive reaction to two Leasons Excelence was
technique Wagner at the time.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
It is a very lucrative almost informal empire for Russia, right,
It's a very lucrative way for them to continue this
process of extractive colonialism and violent subjugation of African people,
and often in ways that are not that distinct from
the colonialism that we saw you one hundred and fifty
two hundred years ago and real like you've detailed brutal
(21:27):
human rights abuses and it all extends all to extract
wealth and resources from Africa in a very similar way
to what we've seen before, but in a less formal way,
I guess than you know with French and British colonialism.
Speaker 2 (21:43):
Yeah, it is, it's it's it's very much a corporate
im period as opposed to a nationalistic imperialism in a way,
and it's you know, the money is flowing into the
pockets of the you know, the oligarchs and stuff in Russia.
Speaker 3 (21:57):
I mean the there.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Was a I was in a of a discussion this
morning about about Niger and someone made a comment about
there being oh there's not the if you look at them,
the Sahel map and the mineral wealth that there's there's
more attractive kind of mineral kind of extraction further south
into the Congo. But the thing is in and I've
(22:21):
worked in Mauritania. You know, you have Mauritania which is
three times the size of France with a population of
four million, and yet only one percent of the country
has actually been surrouted for its mineral wealth, and it
already has massive gold, iron and iron ore deposits and
copper deposits. If you take that, if you go over
into Burkino Faso, it has huge gold gold deposits which
(22:46):
are under explored. It's relatively the vast majority will be
artisanal mining. The same with Mali. And if you go
across into Nigir, you've got the huge uranium mine which
is a keystone of the of the French nuclear industry Arlett,
which would be worth a fortune to whoever would control
(23:06):
the territory.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
So it's.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
It's a very colonialist I suppose manual to what the
what Wagner are doing, but it's a very it's it's
very much a corporate model as opposed to coming in
and establishing governance. They're they're quite happy to leave kind
of administration and governments and stuff like that too loocle go.
(23:33):
But they want the mineral wealth and they'll you know,
they will manipulate and and embed themselves with the local
military who you know, if you you know you've got Mali,
it's it's governed now by a military military junta Niger
is likely to be the same, and you can have
Brookino Faso.
Speaker 3 (23:54):
It's not quite far off that either.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
And yeah, so they're if you don't in these countries,
if you won't have the backing of the military, you've
got nothing.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
You're not going to be in power.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
So yeah, and then if they could throw the military
and then they control it in power, right and as
long as that's amenable, like you say, to their desire
to extract wealth, and they don't care.
Speaker 2 (24:14):
And yeah, and it's you know the other part of
it is they're they're bringing in all the toys for
the for these god for these governments as well. They're
importing drawns, they're importing weaponry, helicopters, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Yeah, let's talk about a little bit, because that's something
they seem to have. Like Eric Prince tried to get
himself a plane, right and he didn't really do very well.
And that, like their access to military hardware is it's unprecedented.
So like where they're able to obtain all that.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
Well, they're definitely they're definitely a collusion with I mean,
whatever tensions there are in Ukraine between the Russian military
and Wagner, there's definitely not any tensions between Wagner and the.
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Russian military when it comes to secure and hardware for Africa.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
Yeah, I mean they there was brand new twenty fours
unloaded in Mali only last year and they met a
very very big show of the French leaving and these
and these helicopters arriving. So you know, there's there's been
Turkish built drones are starting to are coming in left,
(25:27):
right and center across all with the aid and.
Speaker 3 (25:30):
Shipment by Wagner.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
So they're they have incredible with Russian produced equipment. They
have incredible access access to it, and it can only
come from one place, it only it can only come
from the military. And you know, doubt you know, we've
we've seen Russian troops arrive in Ukraine with weapons that
are fifty years old because there's nothing on their basis.
(26:05):
Well kind of it's very clear that there was nothing
on their basis because these weapons are shown are being
transported for use in Africa.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Yeah, they've done the same in Myanmar, right, They're still
selling planes, they're still selling munitions there, and it's yeah, yeah,
like it's it's almost like a I don't know that
there's like a corporate and a state structure, and sometimes
it seems like especially well we see that in the
US too, I guess, but they're competing, they're competing desires,
they're parallel. One doesn't one doesn't have sort of over
(26:35):
the other. One thing I do want to get into
is this culture that exists was in Wagner that is
an extreme glorification of violence, right and in a glorification
of sometimes of Nazism of other sort of related kind
of things that I guess they see as like warrior societies.
(26:56):
And you can see a lot in the telegram. Can
you speak atle bit to that.
Speaker 2 (27:01):
Yeah, it's been there's definitely been an element of these
guys have been recruited from right wing in the in
the Russian military, and we already know there was some
of these units were heavily involved with the with the
Russian football hooligans who had a very hard right leaning anyway,
(27:22):
and you know, we've seen across like it's been hugely
in evidence across some of the some of the said
towns where there's been fighting in Libya where Wagner had
left graffiti of you know, the sonon Rand and a
lot of these other Nazi symbols, and there is this
whole mass glorification of violence from the top down. I
(27:44):
mean the executions, beatings, you know, the torture of local
non white people in there. You know that they're coming
upcoming contact. But we've seen it in Syria, brutal executions.
It's a very much a white supremacist.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Far right.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
It's not even undertones because it's so it's so blatant,
it's right in your face. I mean, they just don't
hide it on their telegram channels, they don't hide it
where they go. You know, we've seen military patches that
they're wearing, which are you know, extreme right, graffiti they
leave behind which is extreme right. You know, even I
haven't seen the movies they've met, but I believe they're
(28:26):
they're actually there's there's a lot of image there as well,
which would be you're right up the street of kind
of neo fascist organizations as well.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
Yeah, it certainly seems they're pretty expective about it, and
no one they don't care. I mean, yeah, for Goose,
you're not supposed to be called it Wagner because it
was Hitler's favorite composer.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
Right, Yeah, yeah, but yeah, there's.
Speaker 2 (28:54):
Like some of the there's there's crossover between some of
the other ruten far right or organizations and some of
the you know, some of these units, these far right
units who have been who are in in Ukraine and
Wagner there is a kind of cross pollination personnel as well.
Speaker 1 (29:12):
Yeah, yeah, it certainly seems they sort of go back
and forth with the military. It's not like I think
people would say there's more of a distinct entity than
it perhaps is.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Yeah, they're they're not They're not a.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
There's guys from Wagner will show up with with other
organizations from time to time, but then they seem to
kind of drift back to Wagner. And seeing that especially
in Ukraine in sort as well in Libya, there was
there was guys that have identified who were operating in
you know, with Wagner in Libya who definitely had you know,
(29:47):
had operated with other organizations as well. You know, they've
been I think there was a number of them were
had been photographed that had actually been id during some
of the football violence in Marcill during the European coupled
a few years ago. So you know, they're they're in
this in this circle and they're they are moving over
(30:09):
and back between different organizations. But again it's it's a
massive shower identity.
Speaker 1 (30:15):
Yeah, it's yeah, it's part of this giant cluster of
the sort of armed extreme right. Yeah, has been yeah,
sort of festering for a long time, unnoticed by a
lot of people. I wonder like, yeah, yeah, yeah, You've
mentioned that if people aren't paying attention, they won't see things,
(30:35):
which I think is right because it's not you know,
it's not on primetime TV or TV at all. Where
would you like, where would you go for coverage, especially
let's say, you know, parts of Africa are you working?
Speaker 2 (30:50):
I use I would use Twitter quite a lot to
to look at what what local journalists are doing in
you know, in places like Mali and the year I
think I started off, I started off using Twitter in
Yemen when I was working there because the you know,
I was fifty kilometers from a town that was entirely
(31:13):
controlled by al Qaeda, and one of them was on
Twitter that they were all posting on Twitter, and you know,
there was some fantastic local journalists who were posting on
Twitter as well, so you got to see in almost
real time what was happening.
Speaker 3 (31:29):
In these places. Yeah, and when there was.
Speaker 2 (31:33):
No other media really and I carried on using Twitter
and then because I do write security report, you know,
digging around and you had there's a couple of online
and as analysts and as people who are on who
cover kind of global conflicts, but they do cover quite
(31:53):
a lot in the help okay. Yeah, so you would
have like the likes of War No War and people
like that were very good on the arm side of things.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Yeah, he's very good at he keeps an eye on
me mr as well.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Yeah, there's a few useful accounts. I think you do
share them on your own accounts sometimes as well. I've
seen I do.
Speaker 3 (32:12):
Yeah, from time to time, I'll share them on my own.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah, what is yours? If people want to follow along,
pitch your feet.
Speaker 3 (32:18):
It's Dermott and couse growth all right, so d or
Mot and then calls growth COSG or orb. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
Oneful. It is one of those things that like we
talk about, you know in many ways, where people spend
too much time on Twitter and that you know, when
it dies it will be nice. But it is something
I was talking to colleagues in Rwanda a while ago.
But I remember when going to Rwanda. One of the
(32:49):
things that they ask you is that you've verified on Twitter.
This was before you could buy a verification for seven
dollars or whatever. It actually allows a lot of people
to work, especially in parts of Africa. It gives sort
of like especially in places with the government of hostility journalism,
it gives them an outside audience that will, one hopes,
you know, make them a little bit safer. Also to
(33:10):
be able to share these things. Yeah, yeah, and losing that,
like there's no other platform that does that.
Speaker 3 (33:18):
No, there isn't that.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
It's a pity that it's that it's actually gone down
the road. It's gone down. I mean, I would be
I work a month on, month off, so I would
be a big Twitter user when when I'm at work
because you know, gathering information from my reports and so,
and then at home I'm not on it so much.
(33:39):
But you know, for local journalists and activists, it you know,
it's a fantastic It's the whole idea is fantastic because
they are able to get that message out. They are
more visible in countries where they've got repressive regimes, and
it keeps an eye on them and you know, the
more visibility they have. It wouldn't be one hundred percent safe,
(34:01):
but they are a little bit safer.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
Yeah, I've seen it with colleagues in me and Mari
as well, just sort of it's only out to the world,
you know, the Irrawadi and all these other publications which
are able to get things out, and lots of those
people are in hiding, you know, like they can't operate
in cities, and they're able to get things out to
the world. So like, for that alone, it's valuable. And yeah,
(34:27):
it's a shame that it seems to go anywhere it's going.
Speaker 2 (34:30):
Yeah, I think I think there was even the you know,
during the well even currently, there's still some still some
people in Afghanistan who are it's their only outlet to
get information out about what's happening under the Taliban regime.
Speaker 3 (34:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
Yeah, I've in touch with a few people in Afghanistania
that it's you know, that would all be lost. I
wouldn't have ever found them otherwise or some of them
know through friends. Yeah, and I want a fine chuck
by asking like this. The stuff that Wagner has done
in Africa is repulsive. Stuff done in Syria is disgusting,
Like what if if you had your your like, if
(35:08):
you had your way, like, how can people or how
can governments or what can we do to stop this
kind of you know, human rights abuse.
Speaker 2 (35:19):
I think there's as much pressure should be can that
can be put on in states obviously with congressmen and
senators that if people go to them there in the
UK government, you know, I'm irish.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
You know, we have a long history of.
Speaker 2 (35:36):
Peacekeeping and stuff like that, and you know, investigations of
human rights abuses, so you know, it's putting pressure on
your politicians that actually needs to be taken, you know.
And the U N I'm I'm not a massive vanity
win because they have been so ineffectual in places. I mean,
my my brother was in was in Lebanon on three
separate occasions with the with the unutiful force. I can
(36:00):
described this, you know, one hand clapping because they even
haven't strong their own people.
Speaker 3 (36:06):
But you know, there there.
Speaker 2 (36:07):
Isn't outside of the EU which can enforce sanctions on them.
You know, there needs to be massive sanctions on anyone
associated with Wagner.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Yeah, and there needs to be more.
Speaker 2 (36:19):
I mean, you know, the the EU has pretty much
been kicked out of the Sahel. There needs to be
more a better relationship built up with these with these
organized these governments. As repulsive as some of these governments are,
there is no real other choice. But there has to
be a way where Wagner have to be highlighted. If
(36:41):
you know, journalists, get to journalists, ask them why isn't
he Why aren't these questions being asked? Is this? You know,
why is it only being the focus? And I'm a
big supporter of Ukraine, but why is it only since
Ukraine that we're seeing Wagner televisions? Yeah, Yeah, they've been
They've been murdering people, they were putting you know, they
(37:03):
were pubbly trapping kids, toys and literally as they retreat
a lot of out of Western Libia. Yet none of
that appeared, you know, the one BBC report and it
came out and it died afterwards, which you know, is
you know, horrendous.
Speaker 3 (37:20):
You know, this needs to be They need to be
Harmard left bart the center.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Yeah, and I think a lot You're right, A lot
of that comes from if you find editors, you can
ask them why they haven't cover at this what is
happening in Africa, Like they were putting human beings and
holes in the ground.
Speaker 3 (37:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I mean, you know, if you're on Twitter, jump on Twitter,
follow the follow editors, news organizations.
Speaker 3 (37:40):
And you know, tweeter at them. Just why aren't you
covering this?
Speaker 4 (37:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (37:45):
Make them say or make people explain why this doesn't
matter as much? In the same with your politicians. I know,
sometimes writing to politicians can seem ineffectual, but like I
can't put sanctions on them, you know, and I can't.
I don't have the ability to project force.
Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah, and I don't think there's nothing that Wagner produced
that you can kind of go, well, I'm not going
to buy you know, I'm not going to buy this
product because it impacts They don't care. They're they're not
selling to the consumer. They're you know, they're stealing to
put in their own buckets.
Speaker 1 (38:21):
Yes, exactly, Yeah, Yeah, I think it was. That was
wonderful there. That's Is there anything you want to else
you on a plug or anywhere else people can find
you learn out more, learn more about the stuff.
Speaker 2 (38:31):
Well, well, I'm on Twitter is probably the best past.
I have kind of promised myself to do a little
bit more kind of on the highlighting the conflict in
because because I work in North Africa, and even though
I'm not in the Hell itself, the Hell has been
It's always been a massive area of interest for me.
(38:52):
So I've kind of, I probably will kind of flip
my my Twitter around a bit more to reflect what's
going on and across the health.
Speaker 3 (39:05):
Yeah, so I'm on there.
Speaker 2 (39:07):
I've got I've got an Instagram account, but that's only
really if you like pictures of dogs.
Speaker 1 (39:14):
Yeah, that's what it's good for. Yeah, Well, thank you
very much for your time, Devic. We appreciate it, and yeah,
I already learn a bit more about this.
Speaker 4 (39:23):
It could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
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It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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