February 13, 2025 • 30 mins
Robert sits down with Dana El-Kurd to discuss President Trump's surprise announcement that the U.S. plans to annex Gaza and force all Palestinians out of the area.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
All media, Welcome back to It could Happen Here. This
is a daily news podcast about all of the things
happening here, which is wherever you happen to be, and
also the world in general. And today we are going
back to talk about Gaza, particularly what has happened and
(00:24):
changed in sort of US policy relating to Gaza, to
what's going to happen as the actual combat operations wind down,
to the Trump administration's so far promises to effectively ethnically
cleanse the entire area and turn it into some sort
of weird US satellite. And with me today is Donna
(00:45):
el Kurd, An assistant professor of political science, guest on
our episodes about Bibi n Yahoo over It, Behind the Bastards, Danna,
thank you so much for being here with us. How
are you doing today? I know that's a dumb question.
I just asked you that at the start of this too.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, thank you for having me. I think every Palestinian
in the world is not doing great.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, again, like I said, a dumb question.
The short story of what is happening is that Trump
made an unprecedented announcement about a week ago on stage
with Netan Yahoo that Gazo would be that, like the
Palestinian population would be forced out and not allowed to return,
and it would be turned into effectively American condos, right, Like,
(01:27):
that's essentially I think that's essentially the gist of the
initial meeting, which was met with a degree of chaos
even from Israel, because I don't think anyone entirely knew
exactly what Trump was going to say when he got
up on that stage, which is pretty normal Trump fashion.
But yeah, how would you characterize kind of the initial
reaction to that announcement.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, so a couple of different audiences for that announcement
to begin with. For the Israeli side, I mean, what
I'm hearing from analysts and people who follow Israeli politics
is that this has really changed the permission structure for them.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think you're right that didn't expect something to this degree,
But now that it's been said, it's like that is
the full extent of what we can expect to do, right,
And so I don't think a lot of people are thinking.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Like, for real, there's going to be a Gaza riviera.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
But what this does is it just expands the scope
of what they think is possible for Gaza, whether it's
preventing reconstruction and you know, basically keeping them in this
kind of stagnant condition and allowing people to start trickling
out and leaving, and anybody left is considered combatant. That
(02:41):
could be a possibility moving forward. It could cover up
for more aggressive action ending the ceasefire. I mean, it's
really upended the things in terms of the Israeli perspective. Yeah,
and how much they've accepted it, I think.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, because I mean my interpretation would be that Trump's
literal words leave the door open to everything from like
you said, sort of slowly waiting for people to trickle
out and not letting them back in kind of like
what you saw in the Chagos Islands or outright mass killing,
you know, like there's no closed doors and Trump's plan.
Other than about three hours before we recorded this on
(03:19):
Monday the tenth, a series of articles went out based
on some of Trump's comments, confirming Palestinians wouldn't be allowed
back into Gaza under his plan. Right, the plan is
for ethnic cleansing, right, Like that's the only way to
describe that.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, No, it's very explicit, and I think that the
way in which American allies, allied regimes in the region
have reacted to this like shows a great deal of alarm. Obviously,
Jordan and Egypt, already struggling as it is with a
variety of issues, don't want a bunch of Palestinians who
are very politically active to be absorbed into their population.
(03:55):
The Saudi government, you know, put out I would say,
like a pretty strong statement. I mean, I I was
surprised how strong it was, about how much they do
not endorse such a plan.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
So yeah, And it's interesting because Trump, in the way
that he often just like says shit has I'm going
to read the exact quote. I'm talking about starting to
build and I think I could make a deal with Jordan.
I think I can make a deal with Egypt. You know,
we give them billions and billions of dollars a year,
and so far Egypt and Jordan have both said, no,
this is not something we're interested you. And Special Rapporteur
(04:29):
Francesca Albanize said Trump's proposal was nonsense but has to
be taken very seriously, which I actually think is a
reasonably good summary of how to handle everything that he says.
It's nonsense that you have to take it very seriously.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I mean, the man has the nukes, as we've discussed,
so yeah, I mean the way that people have reacted
is obviously a great deal of alarm. And on the
Palestinian side, it's like Palestinian different Palastinian political actors are
bracing for, Yeah, the end of the ceasefire essentially.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yeah, I mean, that's pretty stark term to put it.
And I don't know, I guess because yeah, one thing
that the door is open on Israel saying well, now
that we've announced this plan and people have to get out,
everyone's staying is effectively a combatant exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Yeah, I think that that's.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, it's not you know, what we've seen over the
past four hundred and seventy days up to cease fire
is not that they have much respect for non combatants
to begin with. Yeah, that really didn't stop them from
targeting civilians, targeting children. So you can imagine now that
even I mean it's hard to even talk about it
in these terms. It's not like the Bide administration was
(05:37):
really holding them accountable either. But now again, because the
permission structure has just been expanded to such a degree
that we don't know what kinds of things we're going
to see for people who remain in Gaza in the
coming future. And obviously this derails any possibility for Palestinian
and Israeli civil society actors who are trying.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
To move beyond this particular status quo.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And there's no international actor that's really empowering those efforts,
and so it's really bleak.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yeah, I mean, it's bleak in so many comprehensive ways.
Like one thing, and not to I don't mean to
like kind of take the focus off of Gaza, but
this is you use the term permission structure on an
international level, the US saying we are backing a forced
expulsion in genocide of an entire population does change the
(06:30):
permission structure for every international actor in terms of like
a massive variety of conflicts around the world, Like this
is like a sea change in international norms that so
many millions of people outside of Gaza will eventually and
there probably immediately be effective.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
By I mean, I think that there has always been
gaps in what is acceptable and what is permissible under
international law. Obviously that has never been applied evenly. And
then if you were a particular group that didn't have
American backings. For example, the Armenians in Artsa, it didn't
(07:08):
matter if you were ethnically cleansed. But like you said,
this just expands it to such a scope like now
this is an acceptable policy solution to remove wholesale, huge populations.
And when the ceasefire happened, there was an argument, and
I think that this is a valid one that Palestinians
the fact that they were able to in the ceasefire
agreement secure their right to return even to the rubble,
(07:31):
that was a huge obstacle to this kind of precedent,
and I think Trump is now try to upend that victory,
even if it's you know, in terms of a precedent
set or in symbolic terms, like you said, this is
now going to become how states operate. I mean, the
Syrian dictator during the Syrian Civil War I think pushed.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
The bounds of how states can operate. And this is
another level.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah. Well, and I think that this is an I
want to kind of zero back in on Gaza in
a second, but I really do. I think that that
broader point that you just make can't be made enough,
not just the centrality of Syria, but the idea that
when on the international stage, the leader of a country
is allowed to do force displacements through massive aerial bombing.
(08:16):
Like there's this idea that you can just be like, well,
that's just Syria, Right, It's never just Syria, just like
it's never just Gaza. You know, these things metastasize. You
have to view that those kind of actions in the
international stage like a cancer.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Right. No.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
There was a Syrian activist and political writer, Yasinharsala, who
said the Syrianization of the world. Yeah, and we're seeing
the gasification of the world. We will see the gassification
of the word. Yeah, and that's very, very dangerous for
everybody involved.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, that can't be overstated. A chill kind of goes
down my spine thinking about that and thinking about that quote,
which makes this a very bad time to throw to ads.
But that's what I'm going to do. Then we're going
to come back and we're going to talk about b mining.
(09:06):
We're back so to zero Beckon on Gaza. Obviously, one
thing that comes up when Trump talks about this plan
that is an actual thing that would have to be
dealt with one way or the other. Is that huge
chunks of Gaza are uninhabitable right now and will be
for the foreseeable future because of the sheer quantity of
munitions dispensed. A number of munitions that have been used
in Gaza are cluster munitions, but even munitions that are
(09:29):
not cluster munitions, when you're dropping bombs on particularly dense
urban targets, there's a wide variety of things that can
happen to those munitions on their way to their target,
including them getting deflected by debris, them getting deflected by
pieces of metal and rebar and the like that damages
the device and stops it from detonating, but leaves it
still in an active state. And the estimate I'm seeing
(09:52):
for munitions used in Gaza is about ten percent of
the munitions, and there's no way of knowing how many
have been dropped, but estimates are at least thirty thousand
and the first seventy days I think, yeah, seven weeks, sorry,
much less than seventy days. Nearly thirty thousand munitions in
the first seven weeks of the war, so a huge number,
(10:12):
about ten percent at least, are still active and live.
And you know, for an idea of how long it
takes to d mine and render an area safe for
munitions like this. There are still people who die in
France from World World War One munitions, you know, up
to the present day in twenty twenty five. So this
is a massive problem. In the best case scenario, something
(10:33):
has to be done with these munitions. This is something
that Trump has been bringing up and when talking about
like his desire to clear people out of their d
mine and then rebuild effectively what sounds almost like a
vacation colony right for the United States. And one of
the issues just with any sort of practical sort of
effect with D mining is that USAID has been gutted
(10:55):
as an agency, and that's the agency through which D
mining was done. We've spent billions of dollars, put billions
of dollars into d mining around the world through USAYED.
The US military is actually not allowed by our laws
to do d mining operations. There's a complicated history there.
But like so, we both got this situation where the
proposed justification for pushing the population out is well, it's
(11:19):
not safe to be there, we have to determine it.
And also we have created a situation in which the
organizations that do d mining can't do it anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, And I think those same organizations asked for like
an exception to the stop work order and were denied
by the State Department. And yep, no, you know, no
explanations were given. And so I mean it's it's obviously
a fig leaf. Yeah, it's obviously an excuse like this
has nothing to do with bettering conditions in Gaza. And
(11:48):
I the fact that he's gone back and clarified and
has been asked the number of times, including last night
after the Super Bowl or something, and he said no, no,
they won't be allowed to return. Yeah, well, all right,
what are you doing mining? You really think you're going
to build hotels?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
My understanding is like people in the administration were also
surprised by this tack of reasoning. So I wonder who's
fed him this idea, Like, who's given him this idea
that he's going to be able to build hotels?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Here my understanding, based on reading, I don't have any
inns in the Trump administration, but the reporting I've seen
suggested came from Kushner that like a year or so ago.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
He was talking he's been talking about this like this.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Is great, you know, a great place to build a condo.
It's beautiful, you know, wonderful weather. I mean, we know
just from the past. That is kind of how Trump
works is somebody people tell him a lot of shit,
but something sticks in his brain and that, like with
the Greenland, shit can become US policy, and that appears
to be I mean, as best as I can tell,
that's the origin of this.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
It's just like the grift can really stick in his mind.
He's really good at holding onto possibilities for grifting.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah, the fact that you are doing a genocide in
order to clear land for condos doesn't make it less
of a genocide, but it is like a justification for genocide.
I don't think i've heard a country's leader make before, right,
I mean, parts of this are familiar and go back,
you know, even to the Iraq War in terms of
US Paul and further back right, like what is kind
(13:19):
of the core of US support of Israel as our
desire to have a stable territory within the Middle East
from where we can project power, right, so to that extent,
this is like a natural expression of US policy for
decades in the area. Like, well, what if we just
take this for ourselves, and then we have this stable
platform from where we can airstrike whoever the hell we want.
(13:41):
And also Jared Kushner can have his condos.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I mean the thing is they can, they can achieve
and have already been able to maintain American hegemony with
all sorts of bases across the Middle East some secrets,
I'm not, Yeah, cultar like it's it's this is I
think this is another level where it's like American and
geminy is tangential to Jared Kushner making money. It's an
(14:06):
interesting little I've never seen a hedgemon kind of shoot
itself in the foot in this direction to this degree.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Yeah, I don't want the focus to be on like
the danger to Americans from this, but this is extremely
dangerous for Americans too, right, Like having your country openly
back a genocide to this extent, like not just even
arming it, but saying like we are specifically going to build,
like take this land and profit off of it. Is
such as it's so comprehensively escalates everything on an international scale.
(14:39):
Like I don't even I can't even I can't think
of a single decision that's this reckless that's been made
in my lifetime by American politicians other than the Iraq
War right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
And that was I think maybe the first nail in
the confine, and we're reaching the last nails in the coffin.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, well the coffin's almost done.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
It's almost done.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
We're dismantling the whatever remnants of the international order used
to exist, and it's really going to be a free fall.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah. I don't know what more to say on that.
I guess kind of one thing we should get into
is what we're seeing in terms of the Trump administration
and pro Palestine protests in the United States. Obviously, last
night at the Super Bowl, we had a moment where
a member of Kendrick Lamar's the performance crew on the ground.
I think it was one of his dancers. As far
(15:28):
as I can tell them, I don't believe the individual
has been named yet. Maybe I missed that.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I think somebody has released his name. I took to intercept.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Okay, well, I don't feel specifically a need to do that.
But an individual who was a part of that was
standing on like one of the cars that was on
stage that Kendrick had been dancing on, unfurled a Palestine
and Sudan flag. It is a fairly small, like a
couple of feet wide, couple of feet deep, so like
not like a mass, certainly not a destructive act, but like,
(15:58):
not only did that person get like banned for life
from all sort of NFL events and performing or attending them,
which I suppose was not super shocking, but there were
immediate announcements by New Orleans police that they are trying
to figure out what to charge this person under, which, like,
I tell me what kind of crime that is, you.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Know, I mean, it's not like he even invaded the pitch, right,
like he's it likes to be an actor.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, he did a thing, I thing that wasn't part
of the script I assume, but like, I don't know
how you even charged him. Yeah, I don't think charges
are out yet, right, but they're going to find something
to do, which is also going to set a precedent,
right because this is nothing. This person was not in
a place they weren't allowed to be. This person didn't
damage any property they held a thing like that's the
(16:47):
definition of protect and speech. You know, if you're their employer,
you can fire them for that, but you can't charge
them criminally for that.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
I mean, they wanted to make an example.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
They and we'll see what kind of example that they
try to make out of this person. And it like,
like you said, it's it's really in line with Trump,
the Trump administration taking aggressive action against any forms of
dissent around American foreign policy. That is obviously, as we've mentioned,
like very tied up with the genocide that unfolded. And
(17:21):
so it's these executive orders around deporting international students, it's
executive orders around like expanded understandings of anti semitism and
the ideas.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Even if you don't go.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
After everybody, you're making an example enough that like you're
chilling people's abilities to engage, whether it's on campuses or
you know, off campuses, and so it's it's definitely I
can tell you from like the academic perspective, like a
number of disciplinary organizations and and and like Middle Ease
Studies Association and things like this, like they're they're very concerned,
(17:57):
Like this is a very concerning moment.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah, I want to kind of dig into that a
little bit more, and we'll continue our conversation. I've got
to throw to ads one last time and then we'll
be back we're back, Dan, Yeah, we're just talking about
(18:20):
kind of the chilling effects this has had as an academic.
Do you want to talk a little bit about what
you've experienced so far and what you think kind of
needs to be the response to this attempt to chill
any kind of protected speech in favor of Palestine or
not even in favor that's the wrong way to put it. Yeah,
discussing the reality of the genocide.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, I mean that's the thing is, like they have
not they've conflated. Yeah, any any attempt to give information
with advocacy. Yes, so there's that conflation. But then of
course advocacy in and of itself is protected. Yes, you're
certainly allowed to advocate if you're a student or things,
or you know, a citizen in the world world like,
of course, So there is that conflation.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
And I will say that we're.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Seeing attacks on academic freedom, and we're seeing attacks on
freedom of speech and freedom of assembly on academic campuses,
both in public institutions that have to uphold public laws
and also on private institutions that have paid lip service
to things like free speech and are now ignoring that
commitment in the past. And so we've seen even tenured professors,
(19:26):
like what happened in Nihlenberg College, like tenured professors being
targeted losing their jobs.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
And I can say that.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
This has really activated organizations like the American Association of
University Professors, the AAUP, the Middle East Studies Association as well.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Their Committee on Academic Freedom has been.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Working to collect data on how this has impacted people's
abilities to engage on the issue of Israel Palstad even
in their research or teaching. And then there was a
study by two professors Mark Lynch and Shivy Tadhemi George
Washington and the University of Maryland, respectively that found something
like over ninety percent of professors who teach on the
(20:06):
Middle East.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Are self censoring Jesus.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And it's not because they're out in front of the
classroom giving a crap about giving their opinion. Yeah, I
can tell you none of us want to change anybody's
minds about this.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
It's like they're literally just self censoring the content.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, like we're just afraid to even address what happened,
what's happening in a historical context, or you know, teaching
a course on Israel Palestine or any of those kinds
of things is now completely under the microscope.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And this is all part of the whole kind of
authoritarian chilling effect of any ability to express anything outside
of like what the regimes can that you live under
considers acceptable, you know, And it always starts with these well,
you know, if we talk about Palestine and what's happening there,
then maybe this department will get, you know, its funding cut,
(20:58):
and we won't be able to talk about anything. So really,
this is the same decision a lot of hospitals are
making around like the treatment for transcripts as well, or
we'll lose our funding if we do this, and we
do all these other good things. But they never stop, right, like,
you never actually are safe. There's no point at which
these people say it's enough. They take your ability to
(21:19):
talk about or to act in one way away, and
then they take it in a way in another, and
they keep taking, you know, until you make a stand,
and you might as well make a stand the first
time they start trying to take shit from you, otherwise
you're going to get backed even further into a fucking corner.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, there has to be institutions and leadership at these
institutions holding a line because this kind of preemptive obedience
hasn't served them and it's not going to change fundamentally,
the fact that this administration sees academic knowledge production as
a political landscape they need to control. And see, I
(21:56):
mean Jadvan says it like professors.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Are the enemy.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, what are you doing trying to placate you know,
it's like you're just giving them an easier time.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
No, And yeah, through the use of funding and their
ability to kind of gin up outrage in media, groups
like APEC have effectively blasted a salient in free speech
in this country where you really you almost can't talk
about Palestine and you certainly can't acknowledge what Israel is doing, right,
(22:25):
you can't say it stayent plane terms like we are
watching a genocide be at least attempted here, right, And
if you do that, there are huge consequences to most
people in traditional organizations, particularly professors, which is always where
it starts. And yeah, that salient is just going to
get whiter and whiter and whiter, right like that that's
(22:46):
the way this stuff works.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is not a new argument,
but it's like the ways in which the United States
has engaged abroad, it's very much boomeranging home, you know.
And so it's not about, like you said, it's not
just about Palestine. It's not about people who studied Palestine
or teach about Israel Palestine.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
It's so much broader than that.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
The precedent that is being set, and what is like
kind of a silver lining is that the last year
of the Biden administration, the last year plus of the
Biden administration, and then even now, I think at least
it has helped people connect the dots a little bit,
like this is not an issue in isolation, and just
because you don't happen to work on it doesn't mean
(23:29):
that you're safe from people meddling in your syllabi or
chilling your speech on other issues, whether it's trans rights,
whether it's you know, reproductive rights, whatever issue. If you
don't toe the line, they're going to come for you
to right. And so I think that at least I've
seen folks who are not who have never been, you know,
(23:53):
activated on the issue of Israel Palestine, whether in their
advocacy or in their research, they're making that connection at least,
and maybe that's a sole role learning that I'm trying
to be less bleak here.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's helpful. You know, when I
think about the hypocrisy of this moment, I think about
how much of the clamping down on speech, particularly the
attempt to punish like student protesters in the United States,
is predicated on accusing them of backing Hamas, right, And
it's so interesting to me because, like, you know, obviously
(24:23):
I don't think CAMAS is a good organization, but neither
is the IRA, and the former President of the United States,
Joe Biden, made pro IRA statements, right, Like one thing
is okay and the other is not. I don't know's
I find it incredibly frustrating that like there's this pretended
act that like, because you've got some people on one
(24:43):
side who have made statements in favor of this group,
that sucks that that is a reason for cracking down
on the ability of people to talk about a genocide.
Like it's it's just this hideous hypocrisy that I don't
even understand how like people can keep that consistent in
their own heads, but they don't need to write that's
always the thing with fascist No, there's no need for consistency.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the thing is like, first
of all, the conflation that like the entire movement made
such a statement or you know, I mean obviously that
that in and of itself is dishonest. And like you said,
it's not that they care about consistency and they don't
have to maintain an honest approach to this. They're just
using these isolated incidents of particular you know, particular students
(25:30):
or particular groups to shut down.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Any speech around it.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And I was featured in this like vox video and
it was just like an explainer, and I received some
harassment and like accusations that because I was providing context
in a Vox video, which is what I was asked
to do based on my expertise, that I was making
excuses for, you know, what had happened on October seventh.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
I was like, is the red line.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Now just even discussing anything like with any kind of
expertise or information like it's it's uh, yeah, it's mind boggling.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I mean, I guess I think that is what they
want to make the red line. Yeah, yeah, what you
went through there too makes me so angry when I
read shit like and this is not on Gillibrand, but
Kristin Gillibrand was on someone's podcast recently talking about why
some of her Republican colleagues who had expressed opposition to
some of Trump's picks ultimately voted for them. And she's like,
(26:28):
they're scared of getting murdered, and like, isn't everyone who
says anything? And like you got death threats for a
Vox video, Like why are these Congress people who have
so many more resources to protect themselves, why do they
get to be scared?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Oh? Well that's that's yeah, Congress, And it's and it's
inability to do anything, Like yeah, that's that's a whole
other level of demoralization.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, is there anything else you wanted to make sure
we hit on during this conversation before we sort of
close things out.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I'm not sure if maybe this is two in the weeds,
but I think there's been a lot discussed around Trump
and the statements around Gaza and his supposed plans for Gaza,
and some analysts have claimed that this has to do
with like taking an extreme position so that then Arab
Israeli normalization deals could make the claim that like we
talked him down from this brink, and like Saudi is
(27:17):
going to make peace with Israel and claim that we
convinced Trump not to do this kind of thing. And
so that's been something I've read in some analysis, and
I don't think it's actually correct. I don't think that
Trump is making these kinds of statements or possibly these
kinds of plans, just as kind of like I don't know,
(27:38):
multi level chess with Saudi Arabia to get them to
sign a peace deal with Israel, and the conditions in
the region I think have really shifted. And I don't
think Saudi Arabia, as I mentioned at the beginning, because
they put out statements to this effect, I don't think
they're at all interested in this kind of move right
at this point. So I just maybe I would only
(27:58):
add that Trump is not playing this long game that
we think he is.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Maybe we can take him at his word.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, no, I know, because like Biden was playing a
long game, a dumb long game, but a long game
trying to brokers a deal with like Saudi Arabia and
Israel that I might again I think deranged. If there's
clear evidence that the fact that he was not compassmentous,
it's that right, But it was a long game and
I don't think that Trump is I don't think Trump
(28:26):
cares about that.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Yeah, And the region has changed so much, you know,
for whether we like it or not, Like Iran is
not the threat it used to be, closer ties with
Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, I mean, has a huge influence
on the new Syrian government, Like they don't need this,
they don't need this, and like this is not this
kind of long game, multi level chess, you know, mastermind
(28:48):
over here that Trump is now doing.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
So yeah, I just wanted to add that.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
People are just doing shit and trying to grab onto
whatever they.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Can, right and like let's see what sticks, essentially.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Exactly, I mean that, and that is so much of
that is the entirety of the current plan of the
new regime in the United States is throw everything you
can out there and see what sticks.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Yeah, they're doing that in Gaza, just like they're doing
it everywhere else. Well, Donna, thank you so much. Do
you want to plug anything at the end of this,
your own stuff or something else?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Check out I Guess the Fire These Times podcast. I
sometimes do episode for.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Them, Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
And if you're looking for organizations to help support gosins
right now. Heal Palestine or Anara A n e R
are both doing.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Really crucial work.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Excellent, excellent, we'll check that out. Definitely check out the
fire these times and that's a great place to send
some aid. Donna, thank you so much for being on
the show again. And yeah, I hope you uh, I
don't know, I hope, I hope.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I hope that's what I hope.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, Yeah, thanks for having.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
For more podcasts from cool Zone met visit our website
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in episode descriptions. Thanks for listening.
All media, Welcome back to It could Happen Here. This
is a daily news podcast about all of the things
happening here, which is wherever you happen to be, and
also the world in general. And today we are going
back to talk about Gaza, particularly what has happened and
(00:24):
changed in sort of US policy relating to Gaza, to
what's going to happen as the actual combat operations wind down,
to the Trump administration's so far promises to effectively ethnically
cleanse the entire area and turn it into some sort
of weird US satellite. And with me today is Donna
(00:45):
el Kurd, An assistant professor of political science, guest on
our episodes about Bibi n Yahoo over It, Behind the Bastards, Danna,
thank you so much for being here with us. How
are you doing today? I know that's a dumb question.
I just asked you that at the start of this too.
Speaker 2 (01:00):
Well, thank you for having me. I think every Palestinian
in the world is not doing great.
Speaker 3 (01:05):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, again, like I said, a dumb question.
The short story of what is happening is that Trump
made an unprecedented announcement about a week ago on stage
with Netan Yahoo that Gazo would be that, like the
Palestinian population would be forced out and not allowed to return,
and it would be turned into effectively American condos, right, Like,
(01:27):
that's essentially I think that's essentially the gist of the
initial meeting, which was met with a degree of chaos
even from Israel, because I don't think anyone entirely knew
exactly what Trump was going to say when he got
up on that stage, which is pretty normal Trump fashion.
But yeah, how would you characterize kind of the initial
reaction to that announcement.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yeah, so a couple of different audiences for that announcement
to begin with. For the Israeli side, I mean, what
I'm hearing from analysts and people who follow Israeli politics
is that this has really changed the permission structure for them.
Speaker 3 (02:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
I think you're right that didn't expect something to this degree,
But now that it's been said, it's like that is
the full extent of what we can expect to do, right,
And so I don't think a lot of people are thinking.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Like, for real, there's going to be a Gaza riviera.
Speaker 2 (02:19):
But what this does is it just expands the scope
of what they think is possible for Gaza, whether it's
preventing reconstruction and you know, basically keeping them in this
kind of stagnant condition and allowing people to start trickling
out and leaving, and anybody left is considered combatant. That
(02:41):
could be a possibility moving forward. It could cover up
for more aggressive action ending the ceasefire. I mean, it's
really upended the things in terms of the Israeli perspective. Yeah,
and how much they've accepted it, I think.
Speaker 3 (02:56):
Yeah, because I mean my interpretation would be that Trump's
literal words leave the door open to everything from like
you said, sort of slowly waiting for people to trickle
out and not letting them back in kind of like
what you saw in the Chagos Islands or outright mass killing,
you know, like there's no closed doors and Trump's plan.
Other than about three hours before we recorded this on
(03:19):
Monday the tenth, a series of articles went out based
on some of Trump's comments, confirming Palestinians wouldn't be allowed
back into Gaza under his plan. Right, the plan is
for ethnic cleansing, right, Like that's the only way to
describe that.
Speaker 2 (03:33):
Yeah, No, it's very explicit, and I think that the
way in which American allies, allied regimes in the region
have reacted to this like shows a great deal of alarm. Obviously,
Jordan and Egypt, already struggling as it is with a
variety of issues, don't want a bunch of Palestinians who
are very politically active to be absorbed into their population.
(03:55):
The Saudi government, you know, put out I would say,
like a pretty strong statement. I mean, I I was
surprised how strong it was, about how much they do
not endorse such a plan.
Speaker 3 (04:06):
So yeah, And it's interesting because Trump, in the way
that he often just like says shit has I'm going
to read the exact quote. I'm talking about starting to
build and I think I could make a deal with Jordan.
I think I can make a deal with Egypt. You know,
we give them billions and billions of dollars a year,
and so far Egypt and Jordan have both said, no,
this is not something we're interested you. And Special Rapporteur
(04:29):
Francesca Albanize said Trump's proposal was nonsense but has to
be taken very seriously, which I actually think is a
reasonably good summary of how to handle everything that he says.
It's nonsense that you have to take it very seriously.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
I mean, the man has the nukes, as we've discussed,
so yeah, I mean the way that people have reacted
is obviously a great deal of alarm. And on the
Palestinian side, it's like Palestinian different Palastinian political actors are
bracing for, Yeah, the end of the ceasefire essentially.
Speaker 3 (05:01):
Yeah, I mean, that's pretty stark term to put it.
And I don't know, I guess because yeah, one thing
that the door is open on Israel saying well, now
that we've announced this plan and people have to get out,
everyone's staying is effectively a combatant exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
Yeah, I think that that's.
Speaker 2 (05:15):
Yeah, it's not you know, what we've seen over the
past four hundred and seventy days up to cease fire
is not that they have much respect for non combatants
to begin with. Yeah, that really didn't stop them from
targeting civilians, targeting children. So you can imagine now that
even I mean it's hard to even talk about it
in these terms. It's not like the Bide administration was
(05:37):
really holding them accountable either. But now again, because the
permission structure has just been expanded to such a degree
that we don't know what kinds of things we're going
to see for people who remain in Gaza in the
coming future. And obviously this derails any possibility for Palestinian
and Israeli civil society actors who are trying.
Speaker 4 (05:58):
To move beyond this particular status quo.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
And there's no international actor that's really empowering those efforts,
and so it's really bleak.
Speaker 3 (06:09):
Yeah, I mean, it's bleak in so many comprehensive ways.
Like one thing, and not to I don't mean to
like kind of take the focus off of Gaza, but
this is you use the term permission structure on an
international level, the US saying we are backing a forced
expulsion in genocide of an entire population does change the
(06:30):
permission structure for every international actor in terms of like
a massive variety of conflicts around the world, Like this
is like a sea change in international norms that so
many millions of people outside of Gaza will eventually and
there probably immediately be effective.
Speaker 2 (06:48):
By I mean, I think that there has always been
gaps in what is acceptable and what is permissible under
international law. Obviously that has never been applied evenly. And
then if you were a particular group that didn't have
American backings. For example, the Armenians in Artsa, it didn't
(07:08):
matter if you were ethnically cleansed. But like you said,
this just expands it to such a scope like now
this is an acceptable policy solution to remove wholesale, huge populations.
And when the ceasefire happened, there was an argument, and
I think that this is a valid one that Palestinians
the fact that they were able to in the ceasefire
agreement secure their right to return even to the rubble,
(07:31):
that was a huge obstacle to this kind of precedent,
and I think Trump is now try to upend that victory,
even if it's you know, in terms of a precedent
set or in symbolic terms, like you said, this is
now going to become how states operate. I mean, the
Syrian dictator during the Syrian Civil War I think pushed.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
The bounds of how states can operate. And this is
another level.
Speaker 3 (07:54):
Yeah. Well, and I think that this is an I
want to kind of zero back in on Gaza in
a second, but I really do. I think that that
broader point that you just make can't be made enough,
not just the centrality of Syria, but the idea that
when on the international stage, the leader of a country
is allowed to do force displacements through massive aerial bombing.
(08:16):
Like there's this idea that you can just be like, well,
that's just Syria, Right, It's never just Syria, just like
it's never just Gaza. You know, these things metastasize. You
have to view that those kind of actions in the
international stage like a cancer.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Right. No.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
There was a Syrian activist and political writer, Yasinharsala, who
said the Syrianization of the world. Yeah, and we're seeing
the gasification of the world. We will see the gassification
of the word. Yeah, and that's very, very dangerous for
everybody involved.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, that can't be overstated. A chill kind of goes
down my spine thinking about that and thinking about that quote,
which makes this a very bad time to throw to ads.
But that's what I'm going to do. Then we're going
to come back and we're going to talk about b mining.
(09:06):
We're back so to zero Beckon on Gaza. Obviously, one
thing that comes up when Trump talks about this plan
that is an actual thing that would have to be
dealt with one way or the other. Is that huge
chunks of Gaza are uninhabitable right now and will be
for the foreseeable future because of the sheer quantity of
munitions dispensed. A number of munitions that have been used
in Gaza are cluster munitions, but even munitions that are
(09:29):
not cluster munitions, when you're dropping bombs on particularly dense
urban targets, there's a wide variety of things that can
happen to those munitions on their way to their target,
including them getting deflected by debris, them getting deflected by
pieces of metal and rebar and the like that damages
the device and stops it from detonating, but leaves it
still in an active state. And the estimate I'm seeing
(09:52):
for munitions used in Gaza is about ten percent of
the munitions, and there's no way of knowing how many
have been dropped, but estimates are at least thirty thousand
and the first seventy days I think, yeah, seven weeks, sorry,
much less than seventy days. Nearly thirty thousand munitions in
the first seven weeks of the war, so a huge number,
(10:12):
about ten percent at least, are still active and live.
And you know, for an idea of how long it
takes to d mine and render an area safe for
munitions like this. There are still people who die in
France from World World War One munitions, you know, up
to the present day in twenty twenty five. So this
is a massive problem. In the best case scenario, something
(10:33):
has to be done with these munitions. This is something
that Trump has been bringing up and when talking about
like his desire to clear people out of their d
mine and then rebuild effectively what sounds almost like a
vacation colony right for the United States. And one of
the issues just with any sort of practical sort of
effect with D mining is that USAID has been gutted
(10:55):
as an agency, and that's the agency through which D
mining was done. We've spent billions of dollars, put billions
of dollars into d mining around the world through USAYED.
The US military is actually not allowed by our laws
to do d mining operations. There's a complicated history there.
But like so, we both got this situation where the
proposed justification for pushing the population out is well, it's
(11:19):
not safe to be there, we have to determine it.
And also we have created a situation in which the
organizations that do d mining can't do it anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
Yeah, And I think those same organizations asked for like
an exception to the stop work order and were denied
by the State Department. And yep, no, you know, no
explanations were given. And so I mean it's it's obviously
a fig leaf. Yeah, it's obviously an excuse like this
has nothing to do with bettering conditions in Gaza. And
(11:48):
I the fact that he's gone back and clarified and
has been asked the number of times, including last night
after the Super Bowl or something, and he said no, no,
they won't be allowed to return. Yeah, well, all right,
what are you doing mining? You really think you're going
to build hotels?
Speaker 3 (12:03):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (12:04):
My understanding is like people in the administration were also
surprised by this tack of reasoning. So I wonder who's
fed him this idea, Like, who's given him this idea
that he's going to be able to build hotels?
Speaker 3 (12:18):
Here my understanding, based on reading, I don't have any
inns in the Trump administration, but the reporting I've seen
suggested came from Kushner that like a year or so ago.
Speaker 4 (12:30):
He was talking he's been talking about this like this.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Is great, you know, a great place to build a condo.
It's beautiful, you know, wonderful weather. I mean, we know
just from the past. That is kind of how Trump
works is somebody people tell him a lot of shit,
but something sticks in his brain and that, like with
the Greenland, shit can become US policy, and that appears
to be I mean, as best as I can tell,
that's the origin of this.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
It's just like the grift can really stick in his mind.
He's really good at holding onto possibilities for grifting.
Speaker 3 (12:58):
Yeah, the fact that you are doing a genocide in
order to clear land for condos doesn't make it less
of a genocide, but it is like a justification for genocide.
I don't think i've heard a country's leader make before, right,
I mean, parts of this are familiar and go back,
you know, even to the Iraq War in terms of
US Paul and further back right, like what is kind
(13:19):
of the core of US support of Israel as our
desire to have a stable territory within the Middle East
from where we can project power, right, so to that extent,
this is like a natural expression of US policy for
decades in the area. Like, well, what if we just
take this for ourselves, and then we have this stable
platform from where we can airstrike whoever the hell we want.
(13:41):
And also Jared Kushner can have his condos.
Speaker 4 (13:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (13:45):
I mean the thing is they can, they can achieve
and have already been able to maintain American hegemony with
all sorts of bases across the Middle East some secrets,
I'm not, Yeah, cultar like it's it's this is I
think this is another level where it's like American and
geminy is tangential to Jared Kushner making money. It's an
(14:06):
interesting little I've never seen a hedgemon kind of shoot
itself in the foot in this direction to this degree.
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Yeah, I don't want the focus to be on like
the danger to Americans from this, but this is extremely
dangerous for Americans too, right, Like having your country openly
back a genocide to this extent, like not just even
arming it, but saying like we are specifically going to build,
like take this land and profit off of it. Is
such as it's so comprehensively escalates everything on an international scale.
(14:39):
Like I don't even I can't even I can't think
of a single decision that's this reckless that's been made
in my lifetime by American politicians other than the Iraq
War right.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
And that was I think maybe the first nail in
the confine, and we're reaching the last nails in the coffin.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
Yeah, yeah, well the coffin's almost done.
Speaker 4 (14:57):
It's almost done.
Speaker 2 (14:58):
We're dismantling the whatever remnants of the international order used
to exist, and it's really going to be a free fall.
Speaker 3 (15:08):
Yeah. I don't know what more to say on that.
I guess kind of one thing we should get into
is what we're seeing in terms of the Trump administration
and pro Palestine protests in the United States. Obviously, last
night at the Super Bowl, we had a moment where
a member of Kendrick Lamar's the performance crew on the ground.
I think it was one of his dancers. As far
(15:28):
as I can tell them, I don't believe the individual
has been named yet. Maybe I missed that.
Speaker 4 (15:33):
I think somebody has released his name. I took to intercept.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Okay, well, I don't feel specifically a need to do that.
But an individual who was a part of that was
standing on like one of the cars that was on
stage that Kendrick had been dancing on, unfurled a Palestine
and Sudan flag. It is a fairly small, like a
couple of feet wide, couple of feet deep, so like
not like a mass, certainly not a destructive act, but like,
(15:58):
not only did that person get like banned for life
from all sort of NFL events and performing or attending them,
which I suppose was not super shocking, but there were
immediate announcements by New Orleans police that they are trying
to figure out what to charge this person under, which, like,
I tell me what kind of crime that is, you.
Speaker 2 (16:19):
Know, I mean, it's not like he even invaded the pitch, right,
like he's it likes to be an actor.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Yeah, he did a thing, I thing that wasn't part
of the script I assume, but like, I don't know
how you even charged him. Yeah, I don't think charges
are out yet, right, but they're going to find something
to do, which is also going to set a precedent,
right because this is nothing. This person was not in
a place they weren't allowed to be. This person didn't
damage any property they held a thing like that's the
(16:47):
definition of protect and speech. You know, if you're their employer,
you can fire them for that, but you can't charge
them criminally for that.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
I mean, they wanted to make an example.
Speaker 2 (16:58):
They and we'll see what kind of example that they
try to make out of this person. And it like,
like you said, it's it's really in line with Trump,
the Trump administration taking aggressive action against any forms of
dissent around American foreign policy. That is obviously, as we've mentioned,
like very tied up with the genocide that unfolded. And
(17:21):
so it's these executive orders around deporting international students, it's
executive orders around like expanded understandings of anti semitism and
the ideas.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Even if you don't go.
Speaker 2 (17:34):
After everybody, you're making an example enough that like you're
chilling people's abilities to engage, whether it's on campuses or
you know, off campuses, and so it's it's definitely I
can tell you from like the academic perspective, like a
number of disciplinary organizations and and and like Middle Ease
Studies Association and things like this, like they're they're very concerned,
(17:57):
Like this is a very concerning moment.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
Yeah, I want to kind of dig into that a
little bit more, and we'll continue our conversation. I've got
to throw to ads one last time and then we'll
be back we're back, Dan, Yeah, we're just talking about
(18:20):
kind of the chilling effects this has had as an academic.
Do you want to talk a little bit about what
you've experienced so far and what you think kind of
needs to be the response to this attempt to chill
any kind of protected speech in favor of Palestine or
not even in favor that's the wrong way to put it. Yeah,
discussing the reality of the genocide.
Speaker 2 (18:40):
Yeah, I mean that's the thing is, like they have
not they've conflated. Yeah, any any attempt to give information
with advocacy. Yes, so there's that conflation. But then of
course advocacy in and of itself is protected. Yes, you're
certainly allowed to advocate if you're a student or things,
or you know, a citizen in the world world like,
of course, So there is that conflation.
Speaker 4 (19:02):
And I will say that we're.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Seeing attacks on academic freedom, and we're seeing attacks on
freedom of speech and freedom of assembly on academic campuses,
both in public institutions that have to uphold public laws
and also on private institutions that have paid lip service
to things like free speech and are now ignoring that
commitment in the past. And so we've seen even tenured professors,
(19:26):
like what happened in Nihlenberg College, like tenured professors being
targeted losing their jobs.
Speaker 4 (19:32):
And I can say that.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
This has really activated organizations like the American Association of
University Professors, the AAUP, the Middle East Studies Association as well.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
Their Committee on Academic Freedom has been.
Speaker 2 (19:45):
Working to collect data on how this has impacted people's
abilities to engage on the issue of Israel Palstad even
in their research or teaching. And then there was a
study by two professors Mark Lynch and Shivy Tadhemi George
Washington and the University of Maryland, respectively that found something
like over ninety percent of professors who teach on the
(20:06):
Middle East.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
Are self censoring Jesus.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
And it's not because they're out in front of the
classroom giving a crap about giving their opinion. Yeah, I
can tell you none of us want to change anybody's
minds about this.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
It's like they're literally just self censoring the content.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Yeah, like we're just afraid to even address what happened,
what's happening in a historical context, or you know, teaching
a course on Israel Palestine or any of those kinds
of things is now completely under the microscope.
Speaker 3 (20:38):
And this is all part of the whole kind of
authoritarian chilling effect of any ability to express anything outside
of like what the regimes can that you live under
considers acceptable, you know, And it always starts with these well,
you know, if we talk about Palestine and what's happening there,
then maybe this department will get, you know, its funding cut,
(20:58):
and we won't be able to talk about anything. So really,
this is the same decision a lot of hospitals are
making around like the treatment for transcripts as well, or
we'll lose our funding if we do this, and we
do all these other good things. But they never stop, right, like,
you never actually are safe. There's no point at which
these people say it's enough. They take your ability to
(21:19):
talk about or to act in one way away, and
then they take it in a way in another, and
they keep taking, you know, until you make a stand,
and you might as well make a stand the first
time they start trying to take shit from you, otherwise
you're going to get backed even further into a fucking corner.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yeah, there has to be institutions and leadership at these
institutions holding a line because this kind of preemptive obedience
hasn't served them and it's not going to change fundamentally,
the fact that this administration sees academic knowledge production as
a political landscape they need to control. And see, I
(21:56):
mean Jadvan says it like professors.
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Are the enemy.
Speaker 2 (21:58):
Yeah, what are you doing trying to placate you know,
it's like you're just giving them an easier time.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
No, And yeah, through the use of funding and their
ability to kind of gin up outrage in media, groups
like APEC have effectively blasted a salient in free speech
in this country where you really you almost can't talk
about Palestine and you certainly can't acknowledge what Israel is doing, right,
(22:25):
you can't say it stayent plane terms like we are
watching a genocide be at least attempted here, right, And
if you do that, there are huge consequences to most
people in traditional organizations, particularly professors, which is always where
it starts. And yeah, that salient is just going to
get whiter and whiter and whiter, right like that that's
(22:46):
the way this stuff works.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
Yeah, yeah, I mean, this is not a new argument,
but it's like the ways in which the United States
has engaged abroad, it's very much boomeranging home, you know.
And so it's not about, like you said, it's not
just about Palestine. It's not about people who studied Palestine
or teach about Israel Palestine.
Speaker 4 (23:06):
It's so much broader than that.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
The precedent that is being set, and what is like
kind of a silver lining is that the last year
of the Biden administration, the last year plus of the
Biden administration, and then even now, I think at least
it has helped people connect the dots a little bit,
like this is not an issue in isolation, and just
because you don't happen to work on it doesn't mean
(23:29):
that you're safe from people meddling in your syllabi or
chilling your speech on other issues, whether it's trans rights,
whether it's you know, reproductive rights, whatever issue. If you
don't toe the line, they're going to come for you
to right. And so I think that at least I've
seen folks who are not who have never been, you know,
(23:53):
activated on the issue of Israel Palestine, whether in their
advocacy or in their research, they're making that connection at least,
and maybe that's a sole role learning that I'm trying
to be less bleak here.
Speaker 3 (24:03):
Yeah, yeah, I think that's helpful. You know, when I
think about the hypocrisy of this moment, I think about
how much of the clamping down on speech, particularly the
attempt to punish like student protesters in the United States,
is predicated on accusing them of backing Hamas, right, And
it's so interesting to me because, like, you know, obviously
(24:23):
I don't think CAMAS is a good organization, but neither
is the IRA, and the former President of the United States,
Joe Biden, made pro IRA statements, right, Like one thing
is okay and the other is not. I don't know's
I find it incredibly frustrating that like there's this pretended
act that like, because you've got some people on one
(24:43):
side who have made statements in favor of this group,
that sucks that that is a reason for cracking down
on the ability of people to talk about a genocide.
Like it's it's just this hideous hypocrisy that I don't
even understand how like people can keep that consistent in
their own heads, but they don't need to write that's
always the thing with fascist No, there's no need for consistency.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's the thing is like, first
of all, the conflation that like the entire movement made
such a statement or you know, I mean obviously that
that in and of itself is dishonest. And like you said,
it's not that they care about consistency and they don't
have to maintain an honest approach to this. They're just
using these isolated incidents of particular you know, particular students
(25:30):
or particular groups to shut down.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
Any speech around it.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
And I was featured in this like vox video and
it was just like an explainer, and I received some
harassment and like accusations that because I was providing context
in a Vox video, which is what I was asked
to do based on my expertise, that I was making
excuses for, you know, what had happened on October seventh.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
I was like, is the red line.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Now just even discussing anything like with any kind of
expertise or information like it's it's uh, yeah, it's mind boggling.
Speaker 3 (26:08):
I mean, I guess I think that is what they
want to make the red line. Yeah, yeah, what you
went through there too makes me so angry when I
read shit like and this is not on Gillibrand, but
Kristin Gillibrand was on someone's podcast recently talking about why
some of her Republican colleagues who had expressed opposition to
some of Trump's picks ultimately voted for them. And she's like,
(26:28):
they're scared of getting murdered, and like, isn't everyone who
says anything? And like you got death threats for a
Vox video, Like why are these Congress people who have
so many more resources to protect themselves, why do they
get to be scared?
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Oh? Well that's that's yeah, Congress, And it's and it's
inability to do anything, Like yeah, that's that's a whole
other level of demoralization.
Speaker 3 (26:50):
Yeah, is there anything else you wanted to make sure
we hit on during this conversation before we sort of
close things out.
Speaker 2 (26:55):
I'm not sure if maybe this is two in the weeds,
but I think there's been a lot discussed around Trump
and the statements around Gaza and his supposed plans for Gaza,
and some analysts have claimed that this has to do
with like taking an extreme position so that then Arab
Israeli normalization deals could make the claim that like we
talked him down from this brink, and like Saudi is
(27:17):
going to make peace with Israel and claim that we
convinced Trump not to do this kind of thing. And
so that's been something I've read in some analysis, and
I don't think it's actually correct. I don't think that
Trump is making these kinds of statements or possibly these
kinds of plans, just as kind of like I don't know,
(27:38):
multi level chess with Saudi Arabia to get them to
sign a peace deal with Israel, and the conditions in
the region I think have really shifted. And I don't
think Saudi Arabia, as I mentioned at the beginning, because
they put out statements to this effect, I don't think
they're at all interested in this kind of move right
at this point. So I just maybe I would only
(27:58):
add that Trump is not playing this long game that
we think he is.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Maybe we can take him at his word.
Speaker 3 (28:03):
Yeah, no, I know, because like Biden was playing a
long game, a dumb long game, but a long game
trying to brokers a deal with like Saudi Arabia and
Israel that I might again I think deranged. If there's
clear evidence that the fact that he was not compassmentous,
it's that right, But it was a long game and
I don't think that Trump is I don't think Trump
(28:26):
cares about that.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Yeah, And the region has changed so much, you know,
for whether we like it or not, Like Iran is
not the threat it used to be, closer ties with
Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia, I mean, has a huge influence
on the new Syrian government, Like they don't need this,
they don't need this, and like this is not this
kind of long game, multi level chess, you know, mastermind
(28:48):
over here that Trump is now doing.
Speaker 4 (28:50):
So yeah, I just wanted to add that.
Speaker 3 (28:52):
People are just doing shit and trying to grab onto
whatever they.
Speaker 4 (28:55):
Can, right and like let's see what sticks, essentially.
Speaker 3 (28:58):
Exactly, I mean that, and that is so much of
that is the entirety of the current plan of the
new regime in the United States is throw everything you
can out there and see what sticks.
Speaker 1 (29:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (29:09):
Yeah, they're doing that in Gaza, just like they're doing
it everywhere else. Well, Donna, thank you so much. Do
you want to plug anything at the end of this,
your own stuff or something else?
Speaker 4 (29:19):
Check out I Guess the Fire These Times podcast. I
sometimes do episode for.
Speaker 3 (29:23):
Them, Yes, yes, yes, yes.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
And if you're looking for organizations to help support gosins
right now. Heal Palestine or Anara A n e R
are both doing.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Really crucial work.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
Excellent, excellent, we'll check that out. Definitely check out the
fire these times and that's a great place to send
some aid. Donna, thank you so much for being on
the show again. And yeah, I hope you uh, I
don't know, I hope, I hope.
Speaker 4 (29:49):
I hope that's what I hope.
Speaker 3 (29:51):
Yeah, Yeah, thanks for having.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
It Could Happen Here is a production of cool Zone Media.
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Garrison Davis
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