October 12, 2023 • 36 mins
Garrison interviews Jamie Peck and Sam from the Block Cop City speaking tour to discuss the ‘nonviolent action’ planned for November 13th in Atlanta.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Cool Media.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This
is the show where we talk about how everything kind
of feels like it's falling apart and how we can
perhaps sometimes put some of that back together. In about
a month's time, there's going to be what's being labeled
a quote unquote mass nonviolent direct action converging on the
Cop City construction site in Atlanta, Georgia. Now, a few
(00:31):
weeks ago I interviewed the two people going around the
country giving the block Cop City Speaking Tour in preparation
for this upcoming action next month in Atlanta. Like always,
the opinions of those interviewed on the show don't necessarily
reflect the views of the show or myself. And with
this action in particular, there has been quite the variety
(00:52):
of opinions regarding its risk level and its ideological and
tactical validity. But the action is going to happen. It
is going to take place on November thirteenth, no matter
you know some people disagreeing with aspects of it or
having concerns about aspects of it, it is it is
going to take place. So my interest in putting out
this episode is to have a very open and clear
(01:15):
discussion regarding some of the questions people have about this
quote unquote nonviolent action, and also provide enough informations that
people can make their own informed decision regarding what's going
to happen next November. So with that, here is my
conversation with Sam and Jamie from the Block Coop City
speaking tour. Joining me today is Sam from Block Cop
(01:38):
City and Jamie Peck. Both of you have been going
around the country I think it's around seventy cities right now,
doing a speaking tour to talk about this upcoming action
in November to block cop City. Thanks for coming on, guys,
No problem, Yeah, thanks for having us. So I assume
(01:58):
anyone who's listening to this is already familiar with cop City,
whether through their own their own keeping up with the news,
or even if they're just even if they just listen
to the show. We have covered cop City quite extensively
the past like two years. So let's talk about this
this kind of upcoming action, because it's very different than
(02:20):
kind of the previous mobilizations that we've seen, which have
taken form as like weeks of action. We had one
last last June. We had one the previous march. So
what's different about this new upcoming three day kind of mobilization.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
So yeah, obviously it's taking place on one day instead
of a whole week, and there's gonna be two days
of nonviolent direct action training leading up to the day
of which would be really important to make sure that
everybody feels prepared for what we're about to do. It's
different in a few different ways. I feel like this
(02:58):
is a passover Mansuri the four questions.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
How has this action different from all other actions?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, it's gonna be like a real centralization of efforts,
right because other weeks of action have been a little
more diffuse, a little more spread out, And here we're
sort of bringing to bear the full power of all
the people coming from all over the country, this in
the same place at the same time, because there's safety
in numbers and there's power in numbers. And I feel
(03:26):
like the June Week of Action, people were kind of
going all over the place, not.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Really sure what to do when.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
And I talked to a lot of people who were like,
just tell us what to do, tell us what the
move is on this particular day, and we'll be there
And there is no one to do that, which you
know is sometimes a hazard of sort of anarchistic movements.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Right, nobody's in charge.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And we're not in charge right now either, I should
say everybody is going to have a chance to have
input on the final plan in a thing called spokes
councils that we're doing the weekend before the action.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
But yeah, I think we're.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Picking a lane, and we're doing a thing, and this
particular lane has been chosen for a number of different reasons. Right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
The movement is in an interesting place.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Right now, where more people than ever know about cop City,
more people than ever are opposed to cop City, as
evidenced by the one hundred and twenty thousand petition signatures
that the referendum campaign was able to collect to actually
get a referendum on the ballot to let the people
of Atlanta actually vote on whether or not they want
this thing built. Of course, the city is throwing every
(04:33):
trick in the book at them because they do not
want to let the people vote. But on the other hand, right,
lots of people know about it, lots of people oppose it,
But the number of people who are willing and able
to show up and do direct action against it has dwindled,
and that's for a few different reasons. Right, there's been
so much repression of the movement. One hundred people at
(04:55):
least are now facing charges. We've got people facing domestic
terrorism charges, We've got people facing RICO charges, just like
an absurd overreach of the state, even according to mainstream
legal scholars. So we really need a way for people
to feel empowered doing direct action again. And this is
what we've settled upon as a solution, and maybe Sam
(05:17):
can take it from there.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Sure, thanks, yeah, to build upon that, I suppose. Right,
you were sort of asking why is it that less
people than ever are taking embodied action in the forest,
And one of those reasons also is people have been
directing attention to other initiatives. Right, So the one hundred
and twenty thousand petition signatures is gathered by something like
three thousand volunteers. There's all sorts of different parties throughout
(05:42):
the movement who have been trying, you know, just another
diverse tactic. Right, This movement has seen incredibly diverse tactics
over the last two years, all sort of moving in
unison with one another. And we sort of see block
Cop City as just another type of tactic in a
larger repertoire of a toolkit. You know, we haven't actually
(06:05):
had an instance of over a thousand people doing embodied
direct action in the forest, like that's never occurred in
this campaign. We've had a lot of people during some
weeks of Action, but this is a little bit different
in the scope. It's a little bit different in flavor.
I liked what you were saying, Jamie about the sort
of like a lot of other sort of convergences in
Atlanta that were called weeks of action where we're distributed,
(06:27):
we're very autonomously organized, and we're sort of treading a
line between like the main sort of organizing style. You know,
we're on tour right now, right calling in from Vancouver
and you're over in Maine, vast continental wide tour. One
of the primary functions of this tour is like the
activation of affinity groups to sort of catalyze and come
(06:48):
down to Atlanta so that crews can sort of have
the confidence of flexibility, the warmth and the revelry that
comes with moving through space with your homies, with your commons,
while at the same time there's a very large cohort
of various logistical teams trying to figure out various programming events,
the locations of these trainings, how to feed people, how
(07:11):
to house people, how to keep people entertained, things like that.
So it's I think the scope is larger, potentially hitting
eighty cities if we can finalize a few final requests
and the sort of the action itself, right, so, as
Jamie was saying, is sort of confined to one day, right,
(07:33):
but it's a four day convergence. So the action itself
is being our goal is to sort of carve out
of space that day of on the morning of Monday,
November thirteenth, which thousands of people can take embodied action
together in the forest.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Again, when you say like embodied action, this thing has
been advertised as using quote unquote strategic nonviolence as opposed
to like moralistic non violence, like where you like oppose
violent direct action on principle. Instead, this has been trying
to employ nonviolence as a strategic action. Do you want
to talk a little bit about kind of how that's
(08:09):
being envisioned, because I know there's certainly, even in Atlanta,
there's a lot of people who are either skeptical or
confused or fear that there's like other safety issues with
within action as public as this, right, because you're trying
to get thousands of people to show up, So this
is this very publicly announced thing, which also gives the
police a big heads up. So I know there's been
(08:29):
a lot of you know, there's there's a lot of questions,
and I feel like, you know, the this this aspect
of non violence is a very interesting one because the
Defend the Atlanta Forest movement has been I think very
historically defined by you know, very spontaneous, fiery acts of sabotage.
So I guess, yeah, just that's I want to kind
of I'm interested in this kind of strategic non violence aspect.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Well, I don't know that it's been defined by these
strategic acts of sabotage, which, by the way, I don't
consider violence against private property to do violence.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I tend to apply that to human beings only.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
But yeah, we certainly we don't disavow violence. We don't
about any tactics in this fight. I mean that that
highest level of violence that any activists have even been
accused of is probably about the same level that you'd
find if you've ever had a Roman candle fight with
your friends. Right, you're shooting fireworks in each other's general direction.
(09:28):
Obviously that wasn't happening for fun when folks did it
in the activism world. But yeah, why non violence?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Why?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Now?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
It's a great question, and I think a lot of
it has to do with responding to the charges on
the table. A lot of it has to do with
wanting to create an easier on ramp for people and
something that can be openly promoted because, you know, for
better or for worse, the media has at times portrayed
certain corners of the movement as these like scary eco
(09:59):
terrorist and you know, when people are doing a higher
risk action, it's inherently something that you can't really go
around the country talking about and engaging groups of people
that you don't know. So, you know, we wanted to
strike this balance, right and what are we doing? Well, yes,
technically it's a crime. So was what Martin Luther King
did in the nineteen sixties, And we wanted to draw
(10:22):
on that legacy, right, because the civil rights movement has
a deep, deep legacy in Atlanta itself. So like we've
had rallies at the MLK Center and now so okay,
we're doing a thing. Right, there's a thousand people. There,
there's children, there's clergy, it's in broad daylight. The state
is sort of caught in a buyant now because Okay,
(10:44):
it could arrest one thousand people in broad daylight and
charge them with domestic terrorism. That would create a political crisis,
and that would be an international outrage, and I think
it would also be fairly unprecedented. It's possible that that
would have although I don't think that's what's going to happen.
There was recently a similar kind of direct action on
(11:06):
the construction site that the Faith Coalition against Cop City did.
Actually five people chain themselves to the construction equipment and
they were arrested. They're all out on misdemeanors now, which
is what you usually get charged with for a protest
of that nature. Right, So, yeah, the state could hypothetically
arrest a thousand people and charge them with terrorism. That
(11:28):
would be an international outrage, that would be a political crisis.
On the other hand, the state could do and there
are signs that has been pulling back, right because what
I just said, if the state charges people with misdemeanors
for doing the exact same thing that people were recently
charged with terrorism or hit with RICO charges for doing
that will also serve to further delegitimize these charges for
(11:52):
the people already facing them.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Mass arrests are certainly a pretty big concern for people
when they're deciding if they want to go to such
an action. And I mean, because this action is happening,
and you know, one of the most I would say,
it's probably in like the top five most police areas
of the country right now is in the South River Forest,
is specifically the cop City construction site. It's certainly a
(12:27):
concern a lot people have, especially when you know, we're
talking about possibly police arresting hundreds of people trying to
kettle them in the site. It's it's certainly a very
very valid concern to have.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
I'll also add a little bit to that. So for me,
the question of like mass arrest is actually maybe not
even in the top five reasons why I'm interested in
doing this campaign. I think it obviously is a possibility, right,
I would say the goal of this action for me
at least is not to get arrested. Yeah, obviously, Like
(13:02):
you know, many civil disobedience campaigns, like that's an explicit
part of their understanding. Yea, like a lot of change.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Right, Yeah, A lot of like the extinction rebellion kind
of tactics, even some of them more kind of Earth
first tactics kind of revolve around being arrested as a
part of of of the tactic itself. And there's certainly
been a lot of pushback towards that type of like
self sacrificial tactic here in Atlanta the past few years,
and kind of in the general kind of anarchistic mill
(13:29):
you that's kind of been like stewing that you know,
is is this kind of self sacrifice of being arrested
actually useful in any way? And I'm sure that is
part of part of some people's thought process going into
this is is you know, if there's a decent chance
I am going to get arrested just for walking onto
a site, is is it worth it? But sorry you
(13:50):
were I realized I was interrupted you and went on
a short, short rant.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
No, that's okay, it's a it's a it's a very
important issue a lot of us, right, So yeah, like
sort of as I was saying like that, the goal
of this act is action is not to get arrested.
But obviously, as you were saying, like we're waltzing onto
the fucking sorry cops city construction site. It's a very
good chance, to say the least. And but for me,
(14:20):
the other interesting parts about this is right is embodied
action in the forest has just not felt possible for
months and months and months. There hasn't been an occupation
of the forest since the cops killed tort in January
of this year, except for a couple of days during
the March Week of Action, But largely speaking, in the
forests has been held by big scary men with big
(14:42):
scary guns for many months now, and the horizons feel
incredibly obscured. You know. It's it's it's very unclear what
the movement could do right now, that could that could
jump start our energies, that could serve as a container
for the thousands and thousands and thousands of disillusion and
disenfranchised folks who have been working tirelessly at other methods
(15:04):
of change as well. Right so, our sort of theory
is the most powerful action that we can do is
one that's sort of defined by our by our power
in numbers, by our power in our unity, by our
power in sticking together in order. So for me, The
interesting question isn't even necessarily what happens on November thirteenth
(15:25):
of this year, the day of the action. For me,
the interesting question is like, what new horizons does this
open up in the movement? How we can reactivate and
recatalyze our energy and understand and prove to ourselves in
a collective fashion that embodied action in the forest is
indeed possible at a math level, and this actually sort
of seeks to advance the energy and the movement to
(15:45):
a new height that hasn't actually occurred. What's going to
happen is more people than ever will be in the
forest together at the same time, and that right now
is precisely what's needed in this moment, and the only
way to do that as we're doing this publicly and
above ground one to help aid in that sort of
facilitation of just a numbers game, right, and then two
(16:09):
is like, we want people to be able to make
an informed and consensual decision on how they want to engage,
and the only way that they can do that is
for them to actually know what the heck is going
to happen. Right, So we're going around and being incredibly
clear about what the plan is and how the finalized
version of the plan will be, as Jamie sort of
opened with, discussed democratically and horizontally at these in person
(16:31):
outdoor COVID Safe Spokes Council meetings on Saturday, November eleventh
and Sunday, November twelfth down there in Atlanta, where all
these affinity groups from around the country, around the state,
and around the city of Atlanta will sort of elect
one of their home needs to go to this larger
general assembly type thing that will then sort of democratically
and horizontally determine what the actual specifics of Monday's plan
(16:53):
will be. Are there any sort of community agreements that
we want to that we want to uplift and highlights
so that we can all sort of know and be
on the same page and move in a similar way together.
And those could be I don't want to speak for
what there because those will be determined in the Spokes Council,
but the sort of like there's been questions, I guess lastly,
there's been questions about well, what does that actually look
(17:14):
like to maintain a level of non violence whatever that
might actually mean in a space right, So, like I'm
sure a lot of folks listening, and myself included, probably
all of us here have witnessed you know, for lack
of a better word, peace policing or something to that effect. Right,
(17:35):
Our wager with this, our goal with this, is the
activation of affinity groups of crews that roll up together
who enter into this sort of like consensual horizontal decision
making space where community agreements are explicitly laid out in
the days leading up to the action. Those specific affinity
groups can hold each other accountable to those norms in
whatever way that they want, Right, you and your homies
(17:57):
holding it down for one another. In like what we're
calling for, right is non violence. Like that we can debate,
we can have a heavy political debate about like the
meaning of violence and the meaning of non violence. But
like the language of non violence has a rich history
in American social justice movements, right, Like that term has
meaning to a lot of people. And that's actually what's
(18:19):
being advocated for on this day, but only on that day. Right, Like,
So what we're talking about is like in this specific
space that we're going to like create together, this is
what we're doing, what we're calling for in this moment
in time, in this specific geography. If people have other
ways to engage in other spaces or at other times.
One of the hallmarks of the movement is that by
(18:40):
all means they should right. That's what's kept this movement
strong and this is no different.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, I'd like to add that there's definitely a precedent
for this within the movement. There were probably a number
of events like this, but this was the one that
I was there for.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
There was a march a rally into March at.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
The MLK Center during the March Week of Action, and
it was put on by Community Movement Builders, which is
a great group, all black group organizing in specifically black
working class communities in Atlanta, led by Kamal Franklin, and
he put out a statement before this rally in March saying,
(19:22):
you know, attention, comrades, this particular event is going to
be a low risk event. We've decided that is what
we need today. We've done a lot of work in
the community getting community members to come out to this
who maybe haven't been that involved in the past. A
lot of older working class black people are going to
(19:42):
be there. Please don't do anything that's going to attract
extra attention from the cops. Don't do anything spicy, you know,
don't break windows if they tell you to stay on
the sidewalk, stay on the sidewalk. Not that there's anything
wrong with those tactics right in general, And he went
out of his way to say, we do not denounce
these tactics in general.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
It is just not the right thing to do today
at this particular thing.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
And everybody pretty much listened, and everybody bathed themselves, and
I thought it was a really cool example of you know,
the respect, the mutual respect across different different corners of
this movement.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, I've definitely been thinking about that action in relation
to this, to this upcoming kind of event. Yeah, I
think it was on the Thursday of the fifth Week
of Action, a few days after there was like the
mass arrests at at the music festival, because I mean
there they were in the in the in the lead
up to that Community Movement Builders march, there were very
(20:40):
similar questions around like, yeah, like who's going to enforce nonviolence,
which really is kind of a silly question, and that
there is you know, there is precedent absolutely of people
like peace policing and even turning over people to the cops.
That that that that is a precedent, but in this case,
like you know, these specific people and community movement builders
(21:00):
have been pretty down with the more militant aspects of
this movement for years, and you know, in the in
the hours before that action, you know, people sought and
gained more clarification on like no, like we're not gonna
like fuck you over, but like, hey, we're trying to
like bring our grandmas and our kids to this. And
not that the police need any excuse to you know,
(21:22):
attack people, but this is you know, it's this is
the thing that we're planning, this is what this is
what we're trying to do. You don't have to come
if you don't want to, you know, And it's it
is that type of like mutual understanding and agreement that
actions like this kind of rest on. Because I certainly
know that there's there's probably a good deal of forest
defenders who you know, would like to jump at the
(21:42):
opportunity to do you know, spicy stuff on the site,
because that's that's a you know, from their perspective, that's
a very uh, it's a very attractive proposal, which you
know also as president, in these types of big mass mobilizations,
there's there's certainly aspects of that that kind of intersect
with this especially. You know, one concern people may have
is that this is being pushed as like, hey, we're
(22:04):
you know, we're going to all these cities, We're trying
to mobilize all these people, get a thousand people, we're
all planning this thing together. There's a certain risk that
that type of language could be turned against any of
the possibly hundreds of people arrested on March thirteenth and
rule these into and have that role in to the
reco charges that people are facing in Georgia. Now, I
(22:27):
also kind of, from my understanding, part of this action
is to kind of showcase the kind of absurdity of
these reco charges by by demonstrating this is like very
typical civil rights kind of you know, social movement organizing.
But I think those two things I think can actually
coexist where yes, this is very typical civil rights organizing.
(22:52):
And also the state specifically, you know, the state that
you know in Atlanta have been have have not cared
at all, is very is very willing to use these
to use charges like this as a chilling tactic to
suppress any future like protest or mobilization against cop City.
So this is like, I think one other dynamic that
(23:13):
people are certainly thinking about in terms of, you know,
deciding if they want to participate in something like this.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Sure, yeah, above all, one of the primary functions of repression,
right is to scare us into inaction, right, And in
the face of that, the worst thing that we can
do is power away and shrink. And precisely, this type
of mass mobilization is the ultimate show of solidarity with
(23:40):
all people who have been swept up into various trumped
up legal charges related to this movement. And and also
there's you know, throughout the history of American social movements,
there's there's there's president after president after precedent of people
organizing their communities and their friends that they care about
to travel to a place of you know, of injustice
(24:04):
and stand in solidarity together. Right. This is like, this
isn't a classic organizing tactic. It's nothing particularly new. It's
the first time that I've been involved in sort of
this scale of organizing and this sort of specific flavor.
I think with any action, right, just because we call
it non violence doesn't mean that violence won't occur on
(24:26):
the site. Specifically, maybe at the hands of the police
or other law enforcement agencies. Right, just because we call
it non violence doesn't mean that there isn't risk involved. Right,
with any action that we go to, there's risk involved.
But you know, our understanding is that the risk of
inaction far outweighs the risk of action in this moment.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, because they're going to build that thing if nobody
does anything. They're trying to build it right now. And
what's going to happen after that, Well, there's going to
be hundreds and hundreds more cops on the streets, trained
in all the latest militarized technological ways to you know,
oppress and terrorize civilian populations and put down the next
(25:09):
big popular uprising, which they've connected it with very explicitly.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
So we should be thinking about it in that way too.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
And you know, we're a generation without victories, right. It
just sort of feels like we I don't want to
minimize real tangible wins that do indeed happen, but largely speaking,
it feels like we're a generation without victories. We need
to win social struggles, and tens of thousands of people
from around the world are watching the defend the Atlanta
(25:38):
Forest movement hoping that it wins. Right, So I sort
of asked myself what would have happened if Standing Rock
would have won? Right, Like Standing Rock raised the bar
for what it means to resist a pipeline en camp
in an unseated indigenous territory in this country. It raised
the bar for that right. So the next time that
invariably rules around, hopefully we can begin from that ploy
(25:58):
that point. But the pipeline is built right, oil is
flowing through it, oil is leaking through it. It didn't
win that element of the work, and that's why it's
important that we have victories. And that's why you know,
there's so much, so many people pouring so much energy
into the Defend the Atlanta Forest Stock cop City, No
Hollywoodystopia campaign because we know it's winnable, but we need
(26:20):
to ratchet up. And this is precisely the sort of
level of accessible but also drastically heightened level of ratcheting
up of our intensity of our collective power together that's
possible in this moment.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
One thing that Sam you kind of mentioned earlier in
this conversation is that this plan is really just one
spear in the many. That's trying to put cracks in
the facade of the Copsity project, and this action is
really just being put in relation to a whole bunch
of other things that could have happened that would eventually
lead to cop City being stopped. I think that's a
(27:04):
really important aspect to kind of clarify, because you know,
there is some detractors who are you know, framing this
action as being like the only you know, path forward
that organizers are wanting to do, and I don't know,
this is this movement's been very very based on people
taking their own spontaneous action, and they're being not just
one strategy, not just one plan. There's always a big,
(27:26):
a big, you know, litany of things that could be
going on, which all kind of starts to put pressure
on this, on this house of cards, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
There's a political crisis, a bruin in Atlanta that has
been for a very long time. Right, Andre Dickens, for
some reason, has put all of his chips into this thing,
and he is like hated for it. Right. The Atlanta
Police Foundation has taken out millions and millions and millions
of dollars of loans to build this thing. If they
(27:55):
fail to build cop City, which they will. Then they
will default on those loans and they might go bankrupt.
So this entire project is essentially a house of cards,
and it doesn't really feel that way because it's being
buttressed on all sides by corporations, by crony politicians, by
big men with big guns, you know. But they're doing
(28:17):
so precisely because it's fragile, precisely because it's a house
of cards, and there's zero buy in from the community
and from people and standing in solidarity around the world
for this project. What could be a fatal death blow
to this movement is a mass quantitative uptick in the
number of people taking action in the forest, and that
(28:40):
would be a new and novel blow to this thing
that it hasn't really seen.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
There really is a battle happening over the like who
gets to use this language of social justice and who
gets to draw on the legacy of the civil rights movement? Right,
And there are two really competing narratives right now. You
have the stop Coop City movement, which has a pretty
complete analysis, i would say, of the ways that racial
(29:09):
oppression and class exploitation power American capitalism, right, and the
ways that copcity feed into and enable.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Those things with the help of the bourgeois state.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
And then you have the cynical take from the City
of Atlanta and from the political class. I'm looking at
a post that just I think just was posted by
the City of Atlanta Twitter account. It says Mayor Andre
for Atlanta welcomed guests to the March on Washington's sixtieth
Dream Youth panel at North.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Atlanta High School.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Mayor Dickens highlighted the significance of mlk's nonviolence movement and
shared his hopes that our youth will work together to
fulfill Mlk's dream hashtag now sixty. So there we have
a cynical attempt to harness the legacy of the civil
rights movement, right, because what the fuck.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Is he even talking about?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Like, how are you going to work together to fulfill
Mlk's dream of you know, freedom equality, Uh, not just
in terms of who gets to buy things at.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
A particular store, but like.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
True economic power and equality for everyone, especially black proletarians
who have served a very specific and important role in
American capitalism. Right, what is he talking about if not
like we're doing exactly what MLK used to do. This
is a non violent act of civil disobedience. So what
(30:44):
could he what else could he mean by that? Does
he mean voting for Democrats? Does he mean, you know,
working for NGOs? Does he mean joining.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
This political class?
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Because I think like it actually makes me feel better
that the people of Atlanta seem to know that this
is bullshit. Despite all of the propaganda that's been coming
out from from the state and from the you know,
the bourgeois media and the mainstream press that just kind
of uncritically reports the things that the mayor says, the
(31:15):
things that the cops say. The propaganda isn't working. One
hundred and twenty thousand people signed this petition in a
city of five hundred thousand. I mean, I think they
can clearly see who's really carrying on this this project
of social justice and equality.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Great. I always I always love checking up on the
City of Atlanta Twitter account because at least once a
day they post some absolutely absurd thing. I guess because
the last thing I think it's probably worth mentioning is
that like a big part of this plan is trying
to catalyze affinity groups to come to the city, you know,
(31:54):
with you know, specifically with the idea of them participating
in this in this action on thirteenth, but you know,
nothing is stopping affinity groups from pursuing other forms of
direct action during the for the four or so days
they might be in town. I think it's you know,
a big, a large part of this movement's been very
based on like self determination and radical autonomy, whether that's
(32:19):
that includes your ability to participate in you know, big
big collective mas, big collective mass actions, or just having
fun with your friends around the city, like what happened
near the end of the last week of action where
eight motorcycles mysteriously vanished from the material plane.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
So that.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
We're we're about a month away from this. If people
are interested in want to kind of learn more information
about this proposal, where can where can people find as
said information?
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Yeah, thanks for that. We're currently in the middle of
our Wei Lani worldwide mass action, speaking to our eighty
cities from from Portland main to Portland, Oregon, Vancouver to Tijuana,
and everywhere in between. Jamie and I will also be
co hosting a zoom tour stop on Saturday, October fourteenth
at three pm Eastern time. Check out Blochcopcity dot org
(33:15):
for information on those tour stops, including the ones on Zoom.
There's also going to be a schedule for the weekends
festivities that is coming up quite soon, which could include
several cultural events, welcoming ceremonies to in person spokes, council meetings,
general direct action, non violent direct action trainings, as well
as other ways to spend time quality time together down
(33:37):
in the forest leading up to the mass action on
the morning of Monday, November thirteenth. If people have resources
they would like to donate to the movement, whether that
be in the form of in person housing. Has helped
with transportation, help with collective cooking processes, help with social
media outreach, journalistic outreach, help with just thinking through this
(33:59):
thing right and how we can make it as empowering
and successful as possible and help sort of allow this
to once again raise the bar for what it means
to fight against deforestation, to fight against over policing in
black and brown communities around the country, to fight against
economic injustice, and the attack on dignified forms of like
(34:21):
cross social movements and regions. You can contact us via
our contact form on the web page which you can
find on Blockopsity dot org, slash contact and there's a
contact form to fill out. There's also a Gmail block
coopsityat gmail dot com. So if any of those things
are if you want to figure out how to plug in,
feel free to direct your correspondence to one of those channels.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, blockcopcity dot org. You can watch our hype video.
You can read our invitation to action. Uh, you can.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Well, the tour might be mostly over by then, but
you can look at where the tour has been. Lots
of good information on that website, and there's also lots
of ways to get in touch. So yeah, hope to
see you all in November.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
They you're cordially invited to activate an affinity group. Come
down to November between Friday Veterans Day November tenth to
Monday November thirteenth, and then also it's important to note
that probably on the fourteenth and the fifteenth there'll be
collective days of healing and anti repression work that will
be happening city wide as well.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
That does it for us today on the show. Once again,
thanks to Sam and Jamie for talking with me about
this action. Hopefully you have a little bit more information
about this than you had going into it. You can
certainly find more information about this action and a variety
of other opinions on the scenes. Do Noblog's website and
other kind of anarchistic news websites if you want to
(35:49):
go seeking out those other opinions. See you on the
other side.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Thanks for listening.
Cool Media.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison Davis. This
is the show where we talk about how everything kind
of feels like it's falling apart and how we can
perhaps sometimes put some of that back together. In about
a month's time, there's going to be what's being labeled
a quote unquote mass nonviolent direct action converging on the
Cop City construction site in Atlanta, Georgia. Now, a few
(00:31):
weeks ago I interviewed the two people going around the
country giving the block Cop City Speaking Tour in preparation
for this upcoming action next month in Atlanta. Like always,
the opinions of those interviewed on the show don't necessarily
reflect the views of the show or myself. And with
this action in particular, there has been quite the variety
(00:52):
of opinions regarding its risk level and its ideological and
tactical validity. But the action is going to happen. It
is going to take place on November thirteenth, no matter
you know some people disagreeing with aspects of it or
having concerns about aspects of it, it is it is
going to take place. So my interest in putting out
this episode is to have a very open and clear
(01:15):
discussion regarding some of the questions people have about this
quote unquote nonviolent action, and also provide enough informations that
people can make their own informed decision regarding what's going
to happen next November. So with that, here is my
conversation with Sam and Jamie from the Block Coop City
speaking tour. Joining me today is Sam from Block Cop
(01:38):
City and Jamie Peck. Both of you have been going
around the country I think it's around seventy cities right now,
doing a speaking tour to talk about this upcoming action
in November to block cop City. Thanks for coming on, guys,
No problem, Yeah, thanks for having us. So I assume
(01:58):
anyone who's listening to this is already familiar with cop City,
whether through their own their own keeping up with the news,
or even if they're just even if they just listen
to the show. We have covered cop City quite extensively
the past like two years. So let's talk about this
this kind of upcoming action, because it's very different than
(02:20):
kind of the previous mobilizations that we've seen, which have
taken form as like weeks of action. We had one
last last June. We had one the previous march. So
what's different about this new upcoming three day kind of mobilization.
Speaker 3 (02:36):
So yeah, obviously it's taking place on one day instead
of a whole week, and there's gonna be two days
of nonviolent direct action training leading up to the day
of which would be really important to make sure that
everybody feels prepared for what we're about to do. It's
different in a few different ways. I feel like this
(02:58):
is a passover Mansuri the four questions.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
How has this action different from all other actions?
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Well, it's gonna be like a real centralization of efforts,
right because other weeks of action have been a little
more diffuse, a little more spread out, And here we're
sort of bringing to bear the full power of all
the people coming from all over the country, this in
the same place at the same time, because there's safety
in numbers and there's power in numbers. And I feel
(03:26):
like the June Week of Action, people were kind of
going all over the place, not.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
Really sure what to do when.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
And I talked to a lot of people who were like,
just tell us what to do, tell us what the
move is on this particular day, and we'll be there
And there is no one to do that, which you
know is sometimes a hazard of sort of anarchistic movements.
Speaker 1 (03:46):
Right, nobody's in charge.
Speaker 3 (03:47):
And we're not in charge right now either, I should
say everybody is going to have a chance to have
input on the final plan in a thing called spokes
councils that we're doing the weekend before the action.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
But yeah, I think we're.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
Picking a lane, and we're doing a thing, and this
particular lane has been chosen for a number of different reasons. Right.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
The movement is in an interesting place.
Speaker 3 (04:12):
Right now, where more people than ever know about cop City,
more people than ever are opposed to cop City, as
evidenced by the one hundred and twenty thousand petition signatures
that the referendum campaign was able to collect to actually
get a referendum on the ballot to let the people
of Atlanta actually vote on whether or not they want
this thing built. Of course, the city is throwing every
(04:33):
trick in the book at them because they do not
want to let the people vote. But on the other hand, right,
lots of people know about it, lots of people oppose it,
But the number of people who are willing and able
to show up and do direct action against it has dwindled,
and that's for a few different reasons. Right, there's been
so much repression of the movement. One hundred people at
(04:55):
least are now facing charges. We've got people facing domestic
terrorism charges, We've got people facing RICO charges, just like
an absurd overreach of the state, even according to mainstream
legal scholars. So we really need a way for people
to feel empowered doing direct action again. And this is
what we've settled upon as a solution, and maybe Sam
(05:17):
can take it from there.
Speaker 4 (05:18):
Sure, thanks, yeah, to build upon that, I suppose. Right,
you were sort of asking why is it that less
people than ever are taking embodied action in the forest,
And one of those reasons also is people have been
directing attention to other initiatives. Right, So the one hundred
and twenty thousand petition signatures is gathered by something like
three thousand volunteers. There's all sorts of different parties throughout
(05:42):
the movement who have been trying, you know, just another
diverse tactic. Right, This movement has seen incredibly diverse tactics
over the last two years, all sort of moving in
unison with one another. And we sort of see block
Cop City as just another type of tactic in a
larger repertoire of a toolkit. You know, we haven't actually
(06:05):
had an instance of over a thousand people doing embodied
direct action in the forest, like that's never occurred in
this campaign. We've had a lot of people during some
weeks of Action, but this is a little bit different
in the scope. It's a little bit different in flavor.
I liked what you were saying, Jamie about the sort
of like a lot of other sort of convergences in
Atlanta that were called weeks of action where we're distributed,
(06:27):
we're very autonomously organized, and we're sort of treading a
line between like the main sort of organizing style. You know,
we're on tour right now, right calling in from Vancouver
and you're over in Maine, vast continental wide tour. One
of the primary functions of this tour is like the
activation of affinity groups to sort of catalyze and come
(06:48):
down to Atlanta so that crews can sort of have
the confidence of flexibility, the warmth and the revelry that
comes with moving through space with your homies, with your commons,
while at the same time there's a very large cohort
of various logistical teams trying to figure out various programming events,
the locations of these trainings, how to feed people, how
(07:11):
to house people, how to keep people entertained, things like that.
So it's I think the scope is larger, potentially hitting
eighty cities if we can finalize a few final requests
and the sort of the action itself, right, so, as
Jamie was saying, is sort of confined to one day, right,
(07:33):
but it's a four day convergence. So the action itself
is being our goal is to sort of carve out
of space that day of on the morning of Monday,
November thirteenth, which thousands of people can take embodied action
together in the forest.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
Again, when you say like embodied action, this thing has
been advertised as using quote unquote strategic nonviolence as opposed
to like moralistic non violence, like where you like oppose
violent direct action on principle. Instead, this has been trying
to employ nonviolence as a strategic action. Do you want
to talk a little bit about kind of how that's
(08:09):
being envisioned, because I know there's certainly, even in Atlanta,
there's a lot of people who are either skeptical or
confused or fear that there's like other safety issues with
within action as public as this, right, because you're trying
to get thousands of people to show up, So this
is this very publicly announced thing, which also gives the
police a big heads up. So I know there's been
(08:29):
a lot of you know, there's there's a lot of questions,
and I feel like, you know, the this this aspect
of non violence is a very interesting one because the
Defend the Atlanta Forest movement has been I think very
historically defined by you know, very spontaneous, fiery acts of sabotage.
So I guess, yeah, just that's I want to kind
of I'm interested in this kind of strategic non violence aspect.
Speaker 3 (08:53):
Well, I don't know that it's been defined by these
strategic acts of sabotage, which, by the way, I don't
consider violence against private property to do violence.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I tend to apply that to human beings only.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
But yeah, we certainly we don't disavow violence. We don't
about any tactics in this fight. I mean that that
highest level of violence that any activists have even been
accused of is probably about the same level that you'd
find if you've ever had a Roman candle fight with
your friends. Right, you're shooting fireworks in each other's general direction.
(09:28):
Obviously that wasn't happening for fun when folks did it
in the activism world. But yeah, why non violence?
Speaker 4 (09:37):
Why?
Speaker 2 (09:37):
Now?
Speaker 3 (09:38):
It's a great question, and I think a lot of
it has to do with responding to the charges on
the table. A lot of it has to do with
wanting to create an easier on ramp for people and
something that can be openly promoted because, you know, for
better or for worse, the media has at times portrayed
certain corners of the movement as these like scary eco
(09:59):
terrorist and you know, when people are doing a higher
risk action, it's inherently something that you can't really go
around the country talking about and engaging groups of people
that you don't know. So, you know, we wanted to
strike this balance, right and what are we doing? Well, yes,
technically it's a crime. So was what Martin Luther King
did in the nineteen sixties, And we wanted to draw
(10:22):
on that legacy, right, because the civil rights movement has
a deep, deep legacy in Atlanta itself. So like we've
had rallies at the MLK Center and now so okay,
we're doing a thing. Right, there's a thousand people. There,
there's children, there's clergy, it's in broad daylight. The state
is sort of caught in a buyant now because Okay,
(10:44):
it could arrest one thousand people in broad daylight and
charge them with domestic terrorism. That would create a political crisis,
and that would be an international outrage, and I think
it would also be fairly unprecedented. It's possible that that
would have although I don't think that's what's going to happen.
There was recently a similar kind of direct action on
(11:06):
the construction site that the Faith Coalition against Cop City did.
Actually five people chain themselves to the construction equipment and
they were arrested. They're all out on misdemeanors now, which
is what you usually get charged with for a protest
of that nature. Right, So, yeah, the state could hypothetically
arrest a thousand people and charge them with terrorism. That
(11:28):
would be an international outrage, that would be a political crisis.
On the other hand, the state could do and there
are signs that has been pulling back, right because what
I just said, if the state charges people with misdemeanors
for doing the exact same thing that people were recently
charged with terrorism or hit with RICO charges for doing
that will also serve to further delegitimize these charges for
(11:52):
the people already facing them.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
Mass arrests are certainly a pretty big concern for people
when they're deciding if they want to go to such
an action. And I mean, because this action is happening,
and you know, one of the most I would say,
it's probably in like the top five most police areas
of the country right now is in the South River Forest,
is specifically the cop City construction site. It's certainly a
(12:27):
concern a lot people have, especially when you know, we're
talking about possibly police arresting hundreds of people trying to
kettle them in the site. It's it's certainly a very
very valid concern to have.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
I'll also add a little bit to that. So for me,
the question of like mass arrest is actually maybe not
even in the top five reasons why I'm interested in
doing this campaign. I think it obviously is a possibility, right,
I would say the goal of this action for me
at least is not to get arrested. Yeah, obviously, Like
(13:02):
you know, many civil disobedience campaigns, like that's an explicit
part of their understanding. Yea, like a lot of change.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Right, Yeah, A lot of like the extinction rebellion kind
of tactics, even some of them more kind of Earth
first tactics kind of revolve around being arrested as a
part of of of the tactic itself. And there's certainly
been a lot of pushback towards that type of like
self sacrificial tactic here in Atlanta the past few years,
and kind of in the general kind of anarchistic mill
(13:29):
you that's kind of been like stewing that you know,
is is this kind of self sacrifice of being arrested
actually useful in any way? And I'm sure that is
part of part of some people's thought process going into
this is is you know, if there's a decent chance
I am going to get arrested just for walking onto
a site, is is it worth it? But sorry you
(13:50):
were I realized I was interrupted you and went on
a short, short rant.
Speaker 4 (13:57):
No, that's okay, it's a it's a it's a very
important issue a lot of us, right, So yeah, like
sort of as I was saying like that, the goal
of this act is action is not to get arrested.
But obviously, as you were saying, like we're waltzing onto
the fucking sorry cops city construction site. It's a very
good chance, to say the least. And but for me,
(14:20):
the other interesting parts about this is right is embodied
action in the forest has just not felt possible for
months and months and months. There hasn't been an occupation
of the forest since the cops killed tort in January
of this year, except for a couple of days during
the March Week of Action, But largely speaking, in the
forests has been held by big scary men with big
(14:42):
scary guns for many months now, and the horizons feel
incredibly obscured. You know. It's it's it's very unclear what
the movement could do right now, that could that could
jump start our energies, that could serve as a container
for the thousands and thousands and thousands of disillusion and
disenfranchised folks who have been working tirelessly at other methods
(15:04):
of change as well. Right so, our sort of theory
is the most powerful action that we can do is
one that's sort of defined by our by our power
in numbers, by our power in our unity, by our
power in sticking together in order. So for me, The
interesting question isn't even necessarily what happens on November thirteenth
(15:25):
of this year, the day of the action. For me,
the interesting question is like, what new horizons does this
open up in the movement? How we can reactivate and
recatalyze our energy and understand and prove to ourselves in
a collective fashion that embodied action in the forest is
indeed possible at a math level, and this actually sort
of seeks to advance the energy and the movement to
(15:45):
a new height that hasn't actually occurred. What's going to
happen is more people than ever will be in the
forest together at the same time, and that right now
is precisely what's needed in this moment, and the only
way to do that as we're doing this publicly and
above ground one to help aid in that sort of
facilitation of just a numbers game, right, and then two
(16:09):
is like, we want people to be able to make
an informed and consensual decision on how they want to engage,
and the only way that they can do that is
for them to actually know what the heck is going
to happen. Right, So we're going around and being incredibly
clear about what the plan is and how the finalized
version of the plan will be, as Jamie sort of
opened with, discussed democratically and horizontally at these in person
(16:31):
outdoor COVID Safe Spokes Council meetings on Saturday, November eleventh
and Sunday, November twelfth down there in Atlanta, where all
these affinity groups from around the country, around the state,
and around the city of Atlanta will sort of elect
one of their home needs to go to this larger
general assembly type thing that will then sort of democratically
and horizontally determine what the actual specifics of Monday's plan
(16:53):
will be. Are there any sort of community agreements that
we want to that we want to uplift and highlights
so that we can all sort of know and be
on the same page and move in a similar way together.
And those could be I don't want to speak for
what there because those will be determined in the Spokes Council,
but the sort of like there's been questions, I guess lastly,
there's been questions about well, what does that actually look
(17:14):
like to maintain a level of non violence whatever that
might actually mean in a space right, So, like I'm
sure a lot of folks listening, and myself included, probably
all of us here have witnessed you know, for lack
of a better word, peace policing or something to that effect. Right,
(17:35):
Our wager with this, our goal with this, is the
activation of affinity groups of crews that roll up together
who enter into this sort of like consensual horizontal decision
making space where community agreements are explicitly laid out in
the days leading up to the action. Those specific affinity
groups can hold each other accountable to those norms in
whatever way that they want, Right, you and your homies
(17:57):
holding it down for one another. In like what we're
calling for, right is non violence. Like that we can debate,
we can have a heavy political debate about like the
meaning of violence and the meaning of non violence. But
like the language of non violence has a rich history
in American social justice movements, right, Like that term has
meaning to a lot of people. And that's actually what's
(18:19):
being advocated for on this day, but only on that day. Right, Like,
So what we're talking about is like in this specific
space that we're going to like create together, this is
what we're doing, what we're calling for in this moment
in time, in this specific geography. If people have other
ways to engage in other spaces or at other times.
One of the hallmarks of the movement is that by
(18:40):
all means they should right. That's what's kept this movement
strong and this is no different.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Yeah, I'd like to add that there's definitely a precedent
for this within the movement. There were probably a number
of events like this, but this was the one that
I was there for.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
There was a march a rally into March at.
Speaker 3 (18:58):
The MLK Center during the March Week of Action, and
it was put on by Community Movement Builders, which is
a great group, all black group organizing in specifically black
working class communities in Atlanta, led by Kamal Franklin, and
he put out a statement before this rally in March saying,
(19:22):
you know, attention, comrades, this particular event is going to
be a low risk event. We've decided that is what
we need today. We've done a lot of work in
the community getting community members to come out to this
who maybe haven't been that involved in the past. A
lot of older working class black people are going to
(19:42):
be there. Please don't do anything that's going to attract
extra attention from the cops. Don't do anything spicy, you know,
don't break windows if they tell you to stay on
the sidewalk, stay on the sidewalk. Not that there's anything
wrong with those tactics right in general, And he went
out of his way to say, we do not denounce
these tactics in general.
Speaker 1 (20:02):
It is just not the right thing to do today
at this particular thing.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
And everybody pretty much listened, and everybody bathed themselves, and
I thought it was a really cool example of you know,
the respect, the mutual respect across different different corners of
this movement.
Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, I've definitely been thinking about that action in relation
to this, to this upcoming kind of event. Yeah, I
think it was on the Thursday of the fifth Week
of Action, a few days after there was like the
mass arrests at at the music festival, because I mean
there they were in the in the in the lead
up to that Community Movement Builders march, there were very
(20:40):
similar questions around like, yeah, like who's going to enforce nonviolence,
which really is kind of a silly question, and that
there is you know, there is precedent absolutely of people
like peace policing and even turning over people to the cops.
That that that that is a precedent, but in this case,
like you know, these specific people and community movement builders
(21:00):
have been pretty down with the more militant aspects of
this movement for years, and you know, in the in
the hours before that action, you know, people sought and
gained more clarification on like no, like we're not gonna
like fuck you over, but like, hey, we're trying to
like bring our grandmas and our kids to this. And
not that the police need any excuse to you know,
(21:22):
attack people, but this is you know, it's this is
the thing that we're planning, this is what this is
what we're trying to do. You don't have to come
if you don't want to, you know, And it's it
is that type of like mutual understanding and agreement that
actions like this kind of rest on. Because I certainly
know that there's there's probably a good deal of forest
defenders who you know, would like to jump at the
(21:42):
opportunity to do you know, spicy stuff on the site,
because that's that's a you know, from their perspective, that's
a very uh, it's a very attractive proposal, which you
know also as president, in these types of big mass mobilizations,
there's there's certainly aspects of that that kind of intersect
with this especially. You know, one concern people may have
is that this is being pushed as like, hey, we're
(22:04):
you know, we're going to all these cities, We're trying
to mobilize all these people, get a thousand people, we're
all planning this thing together. There's a certain risk that
that type of language could be turned against any of
the possibly hundreds of people arrested on March thirteenth and
rule these into and have that role in to the
reco charges that people are facing in Georgia. Now, I
(22:27):
also kind of, from my understanding, part of this action
is to kind of showcase the kind of absurdity of
these reco charges by by demonstrating this is like very
typical civil rights kind of you know, social movement organizing.
But I think those two things I think can actually
coexist where yes, this is very typical civil rights organizing.
(22:52):
And also the state specifically, you know, the state that
you know in Atlanta have been have have not cared
at all, is very is very willing to use these
to use charges like this as a chilling tactic to
suppress any future like protest or mobilization against cop City.
So this is like, I think one other dynamic that
(23:13):
people are certainly thinking about in terms of, you know,
deciding if they want to participate in something like this.
Speaker 4 (23:19):
Sure, yeah, above all, one of the primary functions of repression,
right is to scare us into inaction, right, And in
the face of that, the worst thing that we can
do is power away and shrink. And precisely, this type
of mass mobilization is the ultimate show of solidarity with
(23:40):
all people who have been swept up into various trumped
up legal charges related to this movement. And and also
there's you know, throughout the history of American social movements,
there's there's there's president after president after precedent of people
organizing their communities and their friends that they care about
to travel to a place of you know, of injustice
(24:04):
and stand in solidarity together. Right. This is like, this
isn't a classic organizing tactic. It's nothing particularly new. It's
the first time that I've been involved in sort of
this scale of organizing and this sort of specific flavor.
I think with any action, right, just because we call
it non violence doesn't mean that violence won't occur on
(24:26):
the site. Specifically, maybe at the hands of the police
or other law enforcement agencies. Right, just because we call
it non violence doesn't mean that there isn't risk involved. Right,
with any action that we go to, there's risk involved.
But you know, our understanding is that the risk of
inaction far outweighs the risk of action in this moment.
Speaker 3 (24:46):
Yeah, because they're going to build that thing if nobody
does anything. They're trying to build it right now. And
what's going to happen after that, Well, there's going to
be hundreds and hundreds more cops on the streets, trained
in all the latest militarized technological ways to you know,
oppress and terrorize civilian populations and put down the next
(25:09):
big popular uprising, which they've connected it with very explicitly.
Speaker 1 (25:13):
So we should be thinking about it in that way too.
Speaker 4 (25:16):
And you know, we're a generation without victories, right. It
just sort of feels like we I don't want to
minimize real tangible wins that do indeed happen, but largely speaking,
it feels like we're a generation without victories. We need
to win social struggles, and tens of thousands of people
from around the world are watching the defend the Atlanta
(25:38):
Forest movement hoping that it wins. Right, So I sort
of asked myself what would have happened if Standing Rock
would have won? Right, Like Standing Rock raised the bar
for what it means to resist a pipeline en camp
in an unseated indigenous territory in this country. It raised
the bar for that right. So the next time that
invariably rules around, hopefully we can begin from that ploy
(25:58):
that point. But the pipeline is built right, oil is
flowing through it, oil is leaking through it. It didn't
win that element of the work, and that's why it's
important that we have victories. And that's why you know,
there's so much, so many people pouring so much energy
into the Defend the Atlanta Forest Stock cop City, No
Hollywoodystopia campaign because we know it's winnable, but we need
(26:20):
to ratchet up. And this is precisely the sort of
level of accessible but also drastically heightened level of ratcheting
up of our intensity of our collective power together that's
possible in this moment.
Speaker 2 (26:42):
One thing that Sam you kind of mentioned earlier in
this conversation is that this plan is really just one
spear in the many. That's trying to put cracks in
the facade of the Copsity project, and this action is
really just being put in relation to a whole bunch
of other things that could have happened that would eventually
lead to cop City being stopped. I think that's a
(27:04):
really important aspect to kind of clarify, because you know,
there is some detractors who are you know, framing this
action as being like the only you know, path forward
that organizers are wanting to do, and I don't know,
this is this movement's been very very based on people
taking their own spontaneous action, and they're being not just
one strategy, not just one plan. There's always a big,
(27:26):
a big, you know, litany of things that could be
going on, which all kind of starts to put pressure
on this, on this house of cards, so to speak.
Speaker 4 (27:35):
There's a political crisis, a bruin in Atlanta that has
been for a very long time. Right, Andre Dickens, for
some reason, has put all of his chips into this thing,
and he is like hated for it. Right. The Atlanta
Police Foundation has taken out millions and millions and millions
of dollars of loans to build this thing. If they
(27:55):
fail to build cop City, which they will. Then they
will default on those loans and they might go bankrupt.
So this entire project is essentially a house of cards,
and it doesn't really feel that way because it's being
buttressed on all sides by corporations, by crony politicians, by
big men with big guns, you know. But they're doing
(28:17):
so precisely because it's fragile, precisely because it's a house
of cards, and there's zero buy in from the community
and from people and standing in solidarity around the world
for this project. What could be a fatal death blow
to this movement is a mass quantitative uptick in the
number of people taking action in the forest, and that
(28:40):
would be a new and novel blow to this thing
that it hasn't really seen.
Speaker 3 (28:46):
There really is a battle happening over the like who
gets to use this language of social justice and who
gets to draw on the legacy of the civil rights movement? Right,
And there are two really competing narratives right now. You
have the stop Coop City movement, which has a pretty
complete analysis, i would say, of the ways that racial
(29:09):
oppression and class exploitation power American capitalism, right, and the
ways that copcity feed into and enable.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Those things with the help of the bourgeois state.
Speaker 3 (29:22):
And then you have the cynical take from the City
of Atlanta and from the political class. I'm looking at
a post that just I think just was posted by
the City of Atlanta Twitter account. It says Mayor Andre
for Atlanta welcomed guests to the March on Washington's sixtieth
Dream Youth panel at North.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Atlanta High School.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
Mayor Dickens highlighted the significance of mlk's nonviolence movement and
shared his hopes that our youth will work together to
fulfill Mlk's dream hashtag now sixty. So there we have
a cynical attempt to harness the legacy of the civil
rights movement, right, because what the fuck.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
Is he even talking about?
Speaker 3 (30:07):
Like, how are you going to work together to fulfill
Mlk's dream of you know, freedom equality, Uh, not just
in terms of who gets to buy things at.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
A particular store, but like.
Speaker 3 (30:22):
True economic power and equality for everyone, especially black proletarians
who have served a very specific and important role in
American capitalism. Right, what is he talking about if not
like we're doing exactly what MLK used to do. This
is a non violent act of civil disobedience. So what
(30:44):
could he what else could he mean by that? Does
he mean voting for Democrats? Does he mean, you know,
working for NGOs? Does he mean joining.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
This political class?
Speaker 3 (30:54):
Because I think like it actually makes me feel better
that the people of Atlanta seem to know that this
is bullshit. Despite all of the propaganda that's been coming
out from from the state and from the you know,
the bourgeois media and the mainstream press that just kind
of uncritically reports the things that the mayor says, the
(31:15):
things that the cops say. The propaganda isn't working. One
hundred and twenty thousand people signed this petition in a
city of five hundred thousand. I mean, I think they
can clearly see who's really carrying on this this project
of social justice and equality.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Great. I always I always love checking up on the
City of Atlanta Twitter account because at least once a
day they post some absolutely absurd thing. I guess because
the last thing I think it's probably worth mentioning is
that like a big part of this plan is trying
to catalyze affinity groups to come to the city, you know,
(31:54):
with you know, specifically with the idea of them participating
in this in this action on thirteenth, but you know,
nothing is stopping affinity groups from pursuing other forms of
direct action during the for the four or so days
they might be in town. I think it's you know,
a big, a large part of this movement's been very
based on like self determination and radical autonomy, whether that's
(32:19):
that includes your ability to participate in you know, big
big collective mas, big collective mass actions, or just having
fun with your friends around the city, like what happened
near the end of the last week of action where
eight motorcycles mysteriously vanished from the material plane.
Speaker 4 (32:38):
So that.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
We're we're about a month away from this. If people
are interested in want to kind of learn more information
about this proposal, where can where can people find as
said information?
Speaker 4 (32:53):
Yeah, thanks for that. We're currently in the middle of
our Wei Lani worldwide mass action, speaking to our eighty
cities from from Portland main to Portland, Oregon, Vancouver to Tijuana,
and everywhere in between. Jamie and I will also be
co hosting a zoom tour stop on Saturday, October fourteenth
at three pm Eastern time. Check out Blochcopcity dot org
(33:15):
for information on those tour stops, including the ones on Zoom.
There's also going to be a schedule for the weekends
festivities that is coming up quite soon, which could include
several cultural events, welcoming ceremonies to in person spokes, council meetings,
general direct action, non violent direct action trainings, as well
as other ways to spend time quality time together down
(33:37):
in the forest leading up to the mass action on
the morning of Monday, November thirteenth. If people have resources
they would like to donate to the movement, whether that
be in the form of in person housing. Has helped
with transportation, help with collective cooking processes, help with social
media outreach, journalistic outreach, help with just thinking through this
(33:59):
thing right and how we can make it as empowering
and successful as possible and help sort of allow this
to once again raise the bar for what it means
to fight against deforestation, to fight against over policing in
black and brown communities around the country, to fight against
economic injustice, and the attack on dignified forms of like
(34:21):
cross social movements and regions. You can contact us via
our contact form on the web page which you can
find on Blockopsity dot org, slash contact and there's a
contact form to fill out. There's also a Gmail block
coopsityat gmail dot com. So if any of those things
are if you want to figure out how to plug in,
feel free to direct your correspondence to one of those channels.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Yeah, blockcopcity dot org. You can watch our hype video.
You can read our invitation to action. Uh, you can.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
Well, the tour might be mostly over by then, but
you can look at where the tour has been. Lots
of good information on that website, and there's also lots
of ways to get in touch. So yeah, hope to
see you all in November.
Speaker 4 (35:08):
They you're cordially invited to activate an affinity group. Come
down to November between Friday Veterans Day November tenth to
Monday November thirteenth, and then also it's important to note
that probably on the fourteenth and the fifteenth there'll be
collective days of healing and anti repression work that will
be happening city wide as well.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
That does it for us today on the show. Once again,
thanks to Sam and Jamie for talking with me about
this action. Hopefully you have a little bit more information
about this than you had going into it. You can
certainly find more information about this action and a variety
of other opinions on the scenes. Do Noblog's website and
other kind of anarchistic news websites if you want to
(35:49):
go seeking out those other opinions. See you on the
other side.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (36:00):
For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website
Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
Listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2 (36:09):
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly at Coolzonmedia dot com slash sources.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
Thanks for listening.
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James Stout
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