Boots Riley on Mishima: A Life in Four Chapters

Boots Riley is one cool dude. Though he and Chuck had never met, they took to each other right away and talked about music, filmmaking, writing, art, activism and philosophy. After a long career as leader of hip-hop band The Coup, Boots was in Atlanta to promote his debut film as writer/director, Sorry to Bother You.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:25):
Hey, everybody, Welcome to movie Crush. Charles W. Chuck Bryant
here in the studio, and oh boy, oh boy, did
I have fun today. I got to talk to Boots Riley. Um.
Definitely one of the coolest people I've ever had the
pleasure of sitting down with. UM. He's so cool. He
made me feel like the squarest middle aged guy you

(00:46):
can imagine, even though we're actually only about a week
apart in age. UM turns out though Boots is a
really nice guy. Uh. He has a new movie out
now called Sorry to Bother You A. I call it
a satire, But we talk a little bit about the
word satire in this interview, and uh, I don't think
satire is a dirty word. I think it's great. It's

(01:07):
a comedy. Um, it's very funny. He's very much making
a statement about the current state of race and politics
in the USA. But but he does so through a
very accessible lens of this film, which is odd and
strange and funny. And his his directorial debut as writer
and director here in his mid to late forties, which

(01:30):
is really cool. He was best known, probably is best
known as the as a leader of the hip hop
group or collective The Coup that is c O U P.
For many years. He made his his name in music
and is extremely talented. And check out The Coup if
you have, and it's great stuff. But I have a
lot of respect for Boots for bonus a change up

(01:54):
here UH at forty seven years old and making a
movie out of nowhere and a very bold ave first film,
very confident, first film, very impressive, So Boots. His pick
was Mishima, A Life and Four Chapters, the film from
from director Paul Schrader. UM very interesting film. I don't
think I've ever seen anything quite like it. It is

(02:16):
a biopic about the the legendary Japanese writer um uk
Oh Mishima. But it is um. It's kind of hard
to describe the way that Paul Schrader approached this was
unlike any movie I've ever seen before as far as
biopics go. He UH. He does it in four parts
through his UH through a black and white story of

(02:37):
his real life as a youngster in growing up, and
then through three other chapters, UM through uk O Mishima's
books and the plots of these books and the story
of these books how they intertwined to also help tell
the story of this man's life, and the way it
shot is just amazing, really really unique. Uh take very

(02:58):
art art movie. Um. And this was Boots his pick um.
Boots as a wide range of styles and influences, and
it was cool to hear that this was his choice.
So here we go with the great Boots Riley on
Mishima A life in four chapters. Nice uh nice digs. Yeah, man,

(03:21):
I got looking good. I got like forty twenty suits
and then forty separate jackets and pants given to me,
like gives it to me. Um. There's this woman that
is this woman that runs a thrift store, a vintage

(03:41):
store that raises money uh two for to fund safe
houses for girls to get away from their pimps. And
they did a story on her in then in the newspaper,
and then people came donating clothes. So something one family
that was a wealthy family, I guess their parents had died,

(04:04):
and so they donated all the clothes. And the woman
had a lot of The mother had so many clothes,
and she didn't she doesn't want men coming into the
shop because sometimes she has the girls come working, and
so she was like, well, I want to give all
the men's clothes to an artist and I happened to
be walking right by and she was like trying to
jack it on. I was like this fits. She's like,

(04:26):
you know, take you know, and there was garbage bags
all over her floors and stuff. She's like, you know,
whatever you want, take it. And I was like, can
I have it all? She was like, yeah, good take
it Bounty. Yeah, yeah, very nice. Where's that that show

(04:48):
that's called Regina's Door. It's in Oakland, California. I mean, yeah, yeah,
you know who I just had in here was and
I have a feeling, you know these guys, David Digs
and Ruffield. You know, it's funny because I thought I
had never met David. You know, I knew who who
he was obviously. I was like, it's strange I never
met this guy. And so we met at Sundance like

(05:11):
when our films were premiering, and I was like, oh,
it's good to finally meet you. And he was like, no, dude,
you already know me because I used to teach this
art and organizing class um at this community center. He
was like, I was in your class. That's pretty good.
But of course he probably didn't have the facial hair

(05:31):
and all that. Well because he was fourteen. Yeah, yeah,
he's he was a kid probably yeah it you were like,
but he looked up to you a lot. I don't know.
Maybe he thought the class was bullshit, It's I doubt it.
He's a nice guy. He and Raphael were both cool
and their movie is great. Uh have you did you
get to see that? Yeah? Man, it's it's exciting to
see so much stuff coming out of Oakland, and uh,

(05:55):
they are definitely showing themselves to be a force, um
in acting and yeah, it's it's exciting to see. Yeah,
Oakland's really like I mean with you guys, with your
movies coming out with the Warriors. The past few years
since been like, now, if only we could get the
rich cheaper so people could actually afford to be artists. Yeah,

(06:16):
that's kind of become a thing. Huh. Yeah, it's kind
of a thing. Yeah. Shelter right, yeah, affordable housing. Uh.
You and I are very close to age. Actually, I
was born in March, oh ship older than me. Yeah,
just by a few weeks, as you can tell by
the gray Beard. Yeah. Um, so let's talk a little

(06:39):
bit about Uh, well, let's go ahead and start with
your movie Sorry to bother you amazing achievement. Congratulations, um,
thank you, I'm really so much. I'm really curious about Well,
first of all, you took the title from your two
thousand twelve record with the coup, Well, or was actually
the other way. I wrote the script and I had

(07:01):
no connections in Hollywood, and I figured, Okay, I'll make
an album and you know, maybe that will convince the
record label to give me some money and then I
can start putting stuff together. They were like nope, and
uh so you wrote the script and yeah, I started

(07:23):
in two thousand eleven, finished in put an album out
in what like summer, and uh yet but still it
turned if nothing happened as fast as I wanted it to.
So we had to put the album out and tour
it because I needed money, and uh then soon it

(07:45):
was by this time, the only person I had gotten
it too was David Cross. Yeah, and David David Cross
was the first person to sign on. Actually sent him
the script because we had done this show together, had
his information from a long time ago, and he was like, well,
first I said, told him I had the script. He

(08:06):
was like, yeah, I send it to my house. And
he now tells me he had no intention of ever
reading it, but he was out of town and his
assistant was house sitting and read the script and then
said told him, you have to read the script. So
then I had him on board, saying he was that,
that he was down. And then so um, somebody told

(08:30):
me that patn Oswald h patnas Wal tweeting cool lyrics.
So I hit him up, said yeah, and hit him
up and said, you know, here's a script. Because even
if you like an artist or whatever they're them, writing
a script is not necessarily something you're excited about because

(08:51):
of course you're you're you're a rapper, you wanna write
a script, you want to start a clothing line, you
want to barbecue franchise whatever, you know, Like, it doesn't
necessarily mean it's good. And but hey, I was able
to say that Patt, and look, David Cross likes it.
So he read it and he was like, hey, I'm

(09:11):
on board whatever you want me to do. So those
two were the first two on board. Then I ran
into Dave Eggers and it just actually ran into him
on the street, and I mean not Ad didn't bump
into him, and we didn't hurt each other. But I
saw him on the street and he, uh, he knew

(09:32):
the music. But I was like, look, I wrote the screenplay.
David Cross and Patton Oswald think it's hilarious, but I
haven't been able to get it made. I'm gonna just
put it out on the internet. That's what I wanted
to do, was just I just just just like with
the idea of like, I'll never get this made, but
I want people to know twenty years from now that

(09:53):
I did it, and maybe like somebody in the future
will be like, we should do that movie you know
found and uh, you know, so Dave Eggers read it
and he said two emailed me. What he then used
as a way to promote the thing was, which was

(10:15):
he said, well, this is one of the best unproduced
screenplays I've ever read. And then he made it into
its own paperback book. Uh and and you know, screenplay
form but bound like a paperback book and packaged it
with mc sweeney's Quarterly. So that went out to like
ten or twenty thousand people. And that was and while

(10:39):
that whole deal was in place, I realized, Okay, maybe
because he was like, look, everybody reads the script, I
want to help you get this out there, you can
get it made. And so I joined San Francisco uh
Film Society as a filmmaker in residence. Um went to
Sundance with the actual books in hand. Uh, to the

(11:01):
to the film festival and met those folks. They invited
me to apply to the Sundance Writer's Lab in Yeah,
the Sundance Writer's Lab. Then, um, they picked us for
their Catalyst program, which is where twelve films each year
make a presentation to sixty investors and you know, you

(11:26):
get your time to make your pitch. And that that's
actually where we met all of our financiers initially. Yeah,
so uh uh forest would occurred. Nina Yang bon Jovi's
company Significant they were there, Um, then uh Macro was
there and Center Reach they were all there. So um,

(11:51):
I had met Siner Reach earlier, but that's where it came.
You know, people got locked in then then it's still
people still weren't convinced. Then when I went to the
direct Sundance Director's Lab, then uh, people gained a little
bit more confidence in me. Well. And at the director's lab,
isn't that where you actually you shoot shoot certain scenes?

(12:14):
Nothing that gets used in the film. Yeah, but just
but yeah, you just kind of practice. And you know,
I although I did put out there that I had
gone to film school, I started in film school. That yeah,
I started in film school. We got a record deal
while I was in film school, and it was at
a time when even short films cost a good deal

(12:36):
of money. Yeah, because you're shooting and uh so, um,
somebody was offering me money, which I thought was a lot.
It was like fifty thou dollars to record an album.
I was like, oh, man, okay, yeah, this is I
guess I'm a musician accident success and uh yeah, so

(12:57):
um that's what I was doing. And that's that's probably
why our songs were like a few are more popular
songs are long eight minute songs that are telling these stories.
Um but so, and I co directed a video and
but really those aren't the the Those things didn't I

(13:19):
don't remember, you know that just the process of filmmaking. Yeah,
it didn't. Really. What did help me more was producing music,
you know, uh, being a music producer, working with musicians.
Where I might be in the studio with someone who

(13:40):
people consider the best bass player in the world, the
drummer who thinks they're the best drummer in the world,
and you know, a weird keyboard player, and individually they
all know much more about music than I do. But
I have to get them to follow my vision, and
and not only just do it because I say to

(14:01):
follow the vision I get have to get them to
buy into it, and then I also have to know.
Then I also have to know, Hey, that riff you
just did right there is way better than what I
had in that section. That's what we're going with. And
so you have to Yeah, you have to be um,

(14:22):
you have to be one over to your Your ego
has to be in the final product and not in
the in not not ino who did what in the process,
but yeah, and you. But you also have to because
like the guitar player wants the guitar louder and wants
a solo in this part in that part. So often

(14:46):
people that are really good at their particular thing, you know,
aren't seeing the whole picture. And that's uh, I could
could be said to be true of actors and you know,
anyone in the process, any technical that's really interesting. I
never thought about that as a training ground for film directing.

(15:07):
It's kind of a similar thing. You're working with artists
for a bigger vision, but everyone has their individual talents
and you just gotta lead the charge. Yeah. You you know,
the thing about film is, luckily, you know, as opposed
to music, you're not riding in a van with all
these people for ten hours a day, you know, and

(15:31):
having to deal with a two hour fist fight between
your keyboard player and your guitar player. So a little
bit of a different world. Yeah, but it trains you
for the other craziness that's happening and the egos that
everyone has, including yourself, and figuring that that out. Yeah,
that's very cool that. Um. I mean, you were, I

(15:52):
guess in your forties going to these labs. All these
years later after going to film school, you're making your
first movie as writer and director. So it's kind of
a crazy, uh circuitous way you got there. Yeah. I
mean I think in general, doing things, following through on
the thing you say you're going to do is something

(16:15):
that builds confidence and allows you to do other things.
You know. Um, you know, if if if someone who
has built a house before tells you that they're going
to swim the English Channel, you may believe them more
than just someone coming out of the blue. Yeah, that's

(16:38):
very cool. I guess it gave you. Um, you're probably
a much more confident first time filmmaker than you would
have been in your twenties right out of film school
because of the successes you achieved through the cup maybe yeah,
and also writing this script and pushing to get it made.
I wasn't doing this, um in order to get a
job in w would I could care less about being

(17:02):
able to do you know, um expendables number seven or
something like that. That's not what I'm trying to do,
not trying to show that I can do what you
need me to do. I'm doing it because I have
something to say and I have I feel like a
way to say it that where the aesthetic makes a

(17:24):
statement as well, you know, and so that you know,
I could come to it on my terms, you know,
whereas maybe coming out of film school you'd be like, Wow,
I have this chance, you know, I don't want to
blow it. And I'm like, well, I'm here to blow
my chance to serve as well to whoever gave you
that chance, YEA, Like, uh, You're in a pretty good

(17:47):
position in this one. I think, yeah, I mean, you
want it to be successful, but you also wanted to
be successful on certain terms. Spend all my life being
broke because I wanted to do the art that I
wanted to do and saying the things I wanted to
say and in the way that I wanted to say it.
So it's not you know, I'm not gonna then make

(18:10):
something I'm unhappy with just for this chance now at
the end of my life. Yeah, it is, it is.
I mean, Patton Oswell has that joke where he's like,
you know, He's like, I'm in my forties. They say
it's midlife, but is it really you know, like, yeah,
you gotta be really healthy to get into your eighties
and nineties. So yeah, Plus, you know, I think you

(18:33):
get to our age people collect tacking a little bit,
which pushes me to be like, I have a lot
of movies to make good. You know. Yeah, I was
gonna ask you about that. So this is the beginning
of phase two. Oh yeah, I mean yeah, it's it's
all kind of been one thing. But having going twenty
something years since film school with collecting ideas and being

(18:59):
like this would be a movie that would be a
good I have like, I have a lot of ideas,
but I think I have like fourteen good ones ready
to go. That's good for the rest of us. Talk

(19:20):
to me a little bit about working with um La
Keith Stanfield. I mean, he's kind of one of the
biggest hottest stars out there right now and I hate
using that word, but hottest actors. So and that's lucky
for me because when when we met up um he
had only been you know, I think it was like

(19:41):
short term twelve and then uh, and you know, it
done like a big part in Oliver's Stone movie, and
we had done other things but they weren't out and
then there were When we met, I had only seen
two episodes of Atlanta, so I was a little I

(20:02):
was like, it's this the guy or whatever. But we
met up at this cafe and he was just crazy.
He was crazy in the right ways, and he was
hungry and he was flexible. When when I first was
meeting with people for this role, there's a scene in
it that calls for full frontal nudity from the person

(20:25):
in places cashus and uh, we ended up not being
able to shoot it for time because the reasons and
and the reason why I let let it go. Was
that just kind of backtracking is that I was like,
first I said to him, um, look, we need people
to feel cascious at his most vulnerable, and that calls

(20:51):
for him being full frontal NUDS scene and wing, which
it wasn't. It wasn't a sex scene. It was just
him standing there and and I was like, it's that's
that's part of the role. There's no talking around it.
And he cut me off. He said, I've been waiting
for a role with full front of me. That's great.

(21:13):
And uh, we didn't end up shooting the scene because
the vulnerability is right there in his face. And also
we just had to cut something because we had six
we had. We ended up shooting sixty one locations four
to something speaking roles twenty eight days. And which was
is I'm realizing now because everybody like this is ambitious,

(21:38):
and I'd be like, you're supposed to be ambitious. But
what I realized what was going on is like if
I had done a movie before, I would have been like, Oh,
that's too many. How we we're not gonna get that's
gonna be crazy, and then I would have cut it down.
And all these details that are in the movie these
little things that you know, and even saying the low

(22:00):
cation number and the number of speaking character numbers don't
doesn't really tell it because the production design is detailed.
Jason Kisvardi did an amazing job, and visually it was
just unbelievable. Single and uh, costume like, uh, some of
the main characters, especially Detroit. Tessa Thompson's character changes outfits

(22:25):
every single scene and changes looks the whole like look
of her face. And so yeah, for me, it was
just like that makes it more interesting, which you did.
But but other people, producers and stuff, were like, this
makes it more expensive or less likely to get done,

(22:46):
and uh, but we ended up cutting very little. Yeah,
the movie. Do you feel like that you are? Do
you feel like you had a kind of a wide
berth of doing the movie it to do while also,
you know, I know when the producers come on board,
they realism hammer hits you in the head pretty hard.

(23:07):
But do you feel like you really didn't have to
compromise too much? Actually didn't have to compromise too much.
I mean, there were there were I mean, there's plenty
of arguments and debates about compromised, but I was you know,
I knew that what this movie had to offer was

(23:30):
a different way of telling stories, especially for Independence, because
that's kind of what it ends up being, is like
you whittled it down to the easiest thing to do
and ends up being two people on a couch talking
and then in a bar talking, and then um on
the street walking away from each other, and you know,
um that ends up being your movie. And so there

(23:53):
ends up being even though Independent is supposed to mean
like freer, it ends up going into this box and um,
so I really didn't want it to do those things.
And um I was able to do it because I mean,
even though this was a union shoot, we had to

(24:17):
uh you know, I lived in Oakland, so we're able
to get locations for yeah people, art that existed was
already around. I could get my friend GOODINGI did the
art that that uh Tessa Thompson's character does on Maru
is what he's going by now, and um, yeah, and

(24:39):
so there were all sorts of things that we could
do to make, you know, yeah, to to make it
be possible. And even like when you are paying extras
and you want to get a crowd scene, it's hard.
But because I'm in the Bay Area, I could generate

(24:59):
enough fix segment to crowd. Seems yeah, it's very cool. Well,
I told to be the same thing. Like, you only
get to make that first one once. You know, it's
like a truly special experience because then you have the
knowledge and you've almost been spoiled a ruined a little
bit going into the second one. But it also makes

(25:19):
you a smarter filmmaker, So sort of a give and take,
you know. Yeah, there's some kind of cool though about
that first that naivete going into that first one. You know,
I don't know because I haven't done my second one, right,
but hopefully I'll hold that naivete. I think there's a
Carlos Santana of all people, had a crazy interview I

(25:42):
heard him doing. This is related to it, but he
was talking about this is good yet. He was talking
about how when he was a kid he was molested
and but it was by a woman, so he didn't
think of it that way at the time, and uh,
but started going into this talk about why older people

(26:07):
are attracted to younger people and even when it is legal,
and you know whatever. The point is that he starts
talking about it that when we're young, everything is new, right.
We have that naivete that that we're so excited about
learning new things. Even though sometimes we're headstrong we think

(26:28):
we know a lot, we still feel that new information
coming in and things seem excited. But the system gets
us to the point where by the time we're in
our thirties, we're supposed we're told that we know all
there is to know, because that's a way for us to,
you know, be okay with just going to work right

(26:48):
and doing the same thing over and over. There's nothing
new to learn, and so be more responsible and be up,
be be productive in the way that that you're supposed
to be productive, and people start getting depressed with that,
and they want to feel like the world is new again,
and so when they get around young people, then they

(27:12):
can feel like the world is new. He claimed that
what he was able to do is make sure he
understood that there's always something new to learn, there's always
something and that every day he consciously finds new stuff
and looks at new stuff around him physically in the world.
And that's what I hope to do as a filmmaker

(27:35):
as well, is too constantly be exploring something new as
opposed to being like I know exactly what I'm doing,
I know how to do this, you know, And that's
what I've done with music too. The much to the
chagrin of some of our fans. You know, we're always

(27:55):
like I'm always having to look for that thing that
feels new and exciting. Uh, and now it's gone to film. Yeah. Well,
I think that's what makes a true artist, you know,
being open to that uh in your life. You know,
it's very easy to shut that down, I think, even
as an artist. So that's very cool. Yeah, that's awesome. Uh.

(28:16):
What about your visual inspirations for this movie? I mean
it was such a just visually it's such a cool
looking movie, and it kind of reminded me of like
like Michelle Gandry and um, and how it worked with
the satire was just kind of a perfect mix. So
we're who are your inspiration? Yeah, well, definitely I like
Michelle Gandry, but I think, um, some of the inspiration

(28:41):
is just well so for instance, with music, UM, we
use pro tools, but I have this theory that you know,
I don't like stuff just going from the keyboard straight
onto the onto the computer, Like sound needs to hit
the air first. Because it does something that I think
we haven't calculated yet, and we hear it in a

(29:06):
different way. I think that same thing with practical effects
versus c G I, like, besides the limitations of c
G I and the fact that you know, like what one,
you can have a skyscraper stand up and walk a
block over and take a ship on on the movie

(29:28):
and it wouldn't impress you. It would It wouldn't. It
doesn't feel like anything, um And but when something happens
in a real space, it it feels substantial and it
really uh you know. So so that's kind of where
I take it from. UM And definitely Gondre does that

(29:53):
a lot um there. You know, there are other filmmakers
that you know from like David crow Nenburg and things
like that about things about the movie that I don't
necessarily want to talk about. Um and uh you know
that that that guide that uh idea. But there's let's see,

(30:14):
there's Gaundry, there's Amir Cousta Rica, there is Kubrick, there
is um definitely Spike Lee, Um, there's um. Well the
color pellet Spikes color Palet always just knocked me out,
and that kind of reminded me a little bit with
what you were doing, just bold colors, and and that

(30:35):
was kind of something we found as we went, you know,
UM with Jason and Jason Kisvarti the production designer, Doug
Emmitt the cinematographer. UM, some A lot of this was
I had like a look book that was, you know,
a thousand images maybe, UM. But who else Para Jan

(30:58):
Office someone? Um he he does these very slow movies,
not like I want to make at all, but UM
has these framings of these big wide shots with like
so much detail and that you really need to take
a still shot of them and to really take it

(31:19):
all in. And I think who maybe was influenced by
that person as well, was uh what's his name? Holy Mountain? Um?
Uh Jodrowski. Uh Holy Mountain. You know Holy Mountain. Uh.

(31:42):
Well you you saw Jodarowski's Doom, right, Oh sure, yeah,
So he made Holy Mountain and it has all these
uh these beautiful uh more his his you can tell,
oh there was someone production designing it, you know, as

(32:03):
opposed to uh parajan Off where it has those same
big white shots uh. And and and his Djodarowski's colors
are are more bright and uh and manipulated. Um. But
so I love all that stuff. I don't like the

(32:24):
I don't like the preaching us with which like Yodorowski
comes off with and and and some of those things.
So we we wanted to put all that stuff in there. Um,
the camera movement, that the the energy of of camera
movement of like uh, trying to think what movie had,

(32:46):
but we wanted an energy in the way the camera
moved through the spaces and uh yeah so and but
a lot of it ended up being like, you know,
our locations were changing things like that, and yeah, you
gotta be nimble. Yeah, and we're like, okay, how do
we get something good out of this? And how do
we you know? So and um, some of that was

(33:12):
you know, luck, some of that was you know um hm,
was was just me and Doug like figuring it out
right then Sometimes Yeah, that's kind of the test of
a filmmaker, I think, is that you know, you can
do all the planning in the world, but like on
the day, shit happens and you gotta you gotta be

(33:32):
nimble and figure out like how to get what you
want and while losing something that you wanted And and
honestly like sometimes I might like there's a shot that's
in the trailer of of Omari Hardwood's character Mr, which
is just Mr with the with the seventh space blank

(33:54):
line under it, um, and he's an hallway full of lights.
And that was a location that was compromise. We really
I still I know the location we could have used
and you know, but anyway, but so we got so

(34:18):
like there were a few spots in this place which
are the reason why we ended up compromising and doing
and that was one of the things that was a
budget thing. Okay, we're just gonna have to do this,
and um, so that hallway was one of the reasons
I picked the place. And maybe my view of it

(34:40):
was like just we're gonna go straight down and we
would see the the lights disappearing off behind behind Omari's head, um,
and Doug was like, let's he didn't say these words,
but he just did it like we're gonna take this
a couple of steps higher and just by moving m

(35:01):
camera to his experience and his skill at framing the
the picture better than I can. You know, that's something
that that just adds there. So you know, like, um,
you know, part of it is picking great people who
know what the hell they're doing. You know, for sure,

(35:22):
let him do their job. That's great. Well, it just
it was a great movie. Congratulations. It's really exciting to
like because you know, we're the same age. I can't imagine,
like I got success later in life with podcasting. So
you've had your successes throughout the years. But it's kind
of cool to be embarking on an I mean yeah,
and and to the extent that you can always reframe

(35:45):
it as success. But you know, even in my own town,
people like, man, well, when are you gonna make an album?
You haven't been making albums in the last fifteen years.
I'm like, dude, I've been putting out an album like
every couple of years. Yeah, you know, But that's the
point is that, you know, and still having you know,

(36:06):
even last year, lights cut off, things like that. So
to what extent is it success? Those sorts of things
you're always questioning yourself and um, you know probably still
will be questioning myself. Um, but uh yeah, so um,

(36:28):
you know, you can frame it as success now. Um,
but but I wasn't always thinking of it that way,
and I think that's kind of what also kept me
hungry that drive, you know, yeah, yeah, uh, Well, backing up,
what was your um, you got involved in politics and
activism at a very young age. Um, but how did entertainment,

(36:52):
Like you hear about a kid that's you know, fourteen
fifteen getting involved in political activism, and you don't think
about that same kid going to the movies to see
Star Wars. But how did movies and entertainment figure in
while you're also doing this very serious, worthy thing. Well,
I mean I was addicted to television as a kid,

(37:15):
and I, um, and by the time I was twelve,
you know, I was practicing, I was learning guitar, not
practicing enough. But I wanted to be prince. I was
just I wanted to be I knew that what was
happening on film screens and television was important. And I

(37:41):
didn't feel important. I didn't feel I felt like they
were touching the world. They were out there. And then,
you know, and and my life was small and boring,
and um, you know, obviously through movies, you can travel,
you can you know, you can be in all these

(38:02):
situations that seem, even in the drama and scary parts,
seem much more of a worthy life than you're living
and UM, and so that that that was what I
wanted to do. My my grandmother ran Oakland Ensembles Theater.
My uncle used to do one person plays. But I

(38:27):
didn't think of those things as connected, because you know,
a play has like thirty people in the crowd or
you know, and and it's there, you're you know, like
you're there and you know. Especially some of these things
that I got involved with were like storefront theaters, like
actual storefront it still looked like a storefront and had

(38:48):
fold out chairs and things like that. So movies and
film and music, I mean TV, film and music that
seemed like touching the world and at the same time, UH,
at the same time, UM getting involved in youth organizing.

(39:10):
As a youth, all of a sudden, I was helping
people who were we first helped out with this help
support this cannary workers strike that was going on in Watsonville,
and then then later on I was doing summer projects
helping out UH farm workers, and these folks were feeling

(39:31):
like they were part of a movement that was changing
the world. So all of a sudden, I was getting
that same feeling from being involved with something that could
actually have an effect on the world, could have ripple
effects of things that you are doing now actually will
have an effect on stuff that's going on after you're gone.

(39:54):
And so that felt very that that that that fulfilled
that need. But at the time I had looked at
my interest in, you know, being part of TV and
film and music. At that time I thought of that
as an individualistic sort of thing. I hadn't really figured

(40:17):
out why I wanted those things in the first place.
Why only later in life did I figure out that
that was the same thing. Who inspired your activism early on?
Where did that come from? Well, um, my parents had
My father was in in the civil rights movements and

(40:39):
then double A CP and Durham, North Carolina, and he
joined CORE and moved out to the Bay Area and
him and my mother met during the San Francisco State Strike,
which was the student strike that created the first first
Ethnic Studies Department and the United States. And um so

(41:02):
they were involved in a lot of stuff. But by
the time I was eight, they were burnt out organizers
and my father went back to school and became a lawyer.
Um So, although they weren't involved in stuff anymore, I
knew that when I got involved in things that I
wouldn't be like, you know, as some people were like,

(41:23):
you can't come in this house if that's what you're doing.
You know, I knew that was not gonna be happening. Um.
But I think, UM, early on a lot of my
heroes were folks like Fred Hampton and UM, revolutionaries and

(41:43):
other countries who were like in their teens and you know,
UM making things happen. Um. Then you know, to mix
it with music, people like Joe Hill who were some
of the folks that inspired Woody Guthrie, UM and Paul
Robeson and um, those sorts of folks that figured out

(42:09):
ways too UM talk to just everyday people and UM
make them feel empowered. Yeah, well and you can kind of.
I mean you definitely see that through line through your
through your music and then with sorry to bother you
you know, you have a statement to make, but you
make it in such a I think satire is such

(42:31):
a great vehicle. UM, and it's weird. I have a
weird relationship. I'm still trying to figure that out with
the words satire because like satire is what like exaggerating
certain circumstances in order to make a point, right, yeah,

(42:53):
but that's what every single movie does. Well, yeah, that's true. Right,
So it's only called satire when it's saying something that
the regular general media doesn't say, and so therefore it
ends up making you think that nothing else has a statement,
and this is the only thing that has a statement,

(43:15):
and so you look at that film differently without thinking that, Hey,
when I'm watching Rampage, there's a political statement being made,
And there is, but it's just the one that we
hear all the time and it reinforces all those things.
Or when I'm watching you know, all these things have
political statements that they're giving to us. Um. But so

(43:38):
I'm still trying to think whether this is whether I
want to say this is a satire, because also I
think aesthetically of certain things when when I hear satire,
you know, like Monty Python or something like that, which
I love Monty Python, but you know, I feel like
the thing that I'm doing is a little little more

(44:00):
nuanced than those things or whatever. For sure. Um, But
I'm sorry I got off on the word satire and
I didn't. I mean, I think, uh, I mean, that's
a tough word to define, and you certainly don't want
to like put your movie or any film in a
box like that, So I I get to aversion to
labeling something. And it's more of a of an aesthetic

(44:24):
connection that that I'm thinking of when when I hear
that word, because sometimes when something says it's a satire,
I I don't necessarily want to click on it or
whatever you watch, you know, like I area, Um, well,
I guess we can move a little bit into your

(44:45):
movie crush pick. Yeah, we should move on to I
know you sent me a couple of things you sent. Uh.
Black Cat White Cat, which we talked before we we
sat down, is a Serbian film that I was not
able to find subtitles. This guy Emir Cousta rica Um
who I only know a few of his movies and

(45:09):
and they and I like all the ones that I know,
although they're slightly racist, um, but they are. They're one
is called Time of Gypsies. One can in that for
an eighty nine. Then another one is called Underground, which
one can in like nine six and the and and um.

(45:32):
The other one is another one is called black Cat
White Cat. I also know his movie Arizona Dream, which
was Johnny Depp, Jerry Lewis Thede Dounaway Lily Taylor. Terrible movie?
Is it? Terrible movie? They have a couple of really
good scenes, but apparently he didn't know that was his

(45:52):
only um American movie, and he didn't know how they
do movies here, so he was filming. Then he was like,
we're gonna take a break for a month and then
come back, and then nobody was available anymore. But uh,
that's crazy anyway, there, Yeah, there's a on YouTube. There's
a scene from that which they're at a dinner table.

(46:13):
So if you look that up online, look up YouTube
and um, if you see a scene with Johnny Depp
and who else is in Vincent Dinofrio, I think, um,
isn't it? But anyway, um, he does chaos really well.
Interesting um he uh and uh he is so like

(46:38):
he has he has the the in Black Cat, White Cat.
There's these geese that just come in and fill the
frame like a few times. And and I'm kind of
somewhat stole from that. There's this paper. It's in the
it's in the trailers. I'm not giving anything away, but
there's this paper this uh copy machine that keeps like

(46:58):
kind of explode and and filling the frame and that
um and uh and and yeah, just the chaos and
the energy of the camera. This guy, Terry Arba Gast
was the cinematographer for that he did. He also was
a cinematographer on Um, the one that people would probably

(47:18):
know his fifth element and those Luke Bisson A couple
of those luc Bisson movies. I think delicate is that
Luke basson test In two? Yeah, yeah, no, Delicateestan was
I think the Brothers Okay, but yeah, I know what
you're talking about. Yeah, it's energetic feeling and uh and

(47:41):
you know, like Time of Gypsies is this movie about
this kid who It starts out and he just has
this power too, just slightly levitate a fork above the ground,
above the table like a you inches and then it falls.
That's all he's able to do. And then it goes

(48:04):
into this story about how him and his sister are
basically kidnapped and taken to Italy and sisters turned into
a prostitute and um, he's doing all these crimes or whatever,
and then he finally escapes and finds his sister, then
goes to the gangster's wedding that kidnapped him and is

(48:30):
able to levitate the fork up, can't get to the
gangster and he's sitting there at the table with him
and levitates the fork all the way up and then
bullets right through his eye. You know. Um yeah, and
um so those those so yeah, but Consta Rica has

(48:54):
become I heard he's become pretty right wing. Um. Anyway, Um,
I got some homework to do there then yeah, uh one. Well, actually,
after I wrote the script and I at one point
there was a couple of people I called because I
didn't I think that I would be able to get
it made. So I was like, maybe I could get

(49:16):
someone else that's known to to direct it, and then
it's it becomes popular and then I can become a
director after that. What I luckily that didn't happen, because
what I learned is if I had done that, then
I would forever be a writer and it would be
hard to get it. But anyway, so I called looking
for this guy Cousta Rica, and I just through the

(49:41):
Internet found his phone number and called it and it
was in France and somebody picked up the phone. I
was like, Hey, can I speak to amer Cousta Rica
And they were like, he's not here. I'm his manager.
And then I was like, I told him this thing.
He's like, well, I haven't seen him in ten years

(50:03):
and if I ever do see him, I will kill him.
Then hung up the phone. So that's pretty funny. And
the Yeah, the other person I hit up was Richard Ayodey,
Um British Black British comedian who directed a movie called
Submarine and uh directed uh the Double and uh, but

(50:30):
he's known I guess the most thing he's most known
for here besides being on the I T. Crowd, He's
also in the movie The Watch. He's the guy. But anyway, Uh,
and he was like, Dude, I I'm not going to
direct this movie, but I'm also going to demand that
no one else directs this movie. But because yeah, because

(50:53):
reading the script, obviously you have a vision that you
want to put forward. And I was like, well, but
I won't be able to get the money for It's
like you'll be able to get the money, you just
won't be able to get as much money as someone
else would. You'll get the money and do it cheaply. Yeah,
that's pretty cool to get. I'm sure that helps your

(51:15):
confidence along the way to hear people champion you like that. Yeah, um,
and so yeah, that's one of the movie crushes. I
guess is uh Emir cousta Rica Black Cat, White Cat.
But Underground is also a great movie that's a little
bit easier to to to get Underground UM, which is
a movie about Underground is a movie about It's Yugoslavia.

(51:41):
Um during World War two. Hitler is attacking this and
this revolutionary that's fighting Hitler. Um is is has his
face all over the place, and UH has to escape,
has to hide, so it hides in his his he

(52:01):
hides in his best friend confidence basement. They hide a
whole bunch of people there that are wanted by Hitler.
And meanwhile, while the main revolutionary guy is in the basement,
his best friend falls in love with the main revolutionary
guys wife who's living up in the house with him. Um.

(52:25):
Cut to twenty years later, the the best friend is
lying to the revolutionary guy and saying that Hitler is
still out there. It's the sixties now, and they've got
fake radio broadcast and all, and fake explosions and all
that kind of stuff, and there's a whole community of

(52:46):
people living under his house. Yeah. Well, I was able
to watch this morning. Actually a one of your other picks,
Mishma A Life in four chapters, and this is the
Paul Great Paul S. Trader, the Paul Trader movie from

(53:07):
the mid eighties, very unconventional biopic of the life of
the Japanese writer Yukio Mishma. And um I had never
heard of this film, and it was unbelievable. It was amazing. Yeah,
it's it's such a beautiful the way and that the
story that I just learned about it is that it

(53:29):
never played in Japan. I just read that too. Yeah, yeah,
I was curious about how they felt about it. It
was apparently Japanese gangsters didn't like the fact that that
uh it showed that Mishima was gay and uh so,
which was true to life. Yeah. And and I think

(53:54):
probably came through in a lot of his work. Um
but he um so. I guess a guy had already
put in a million dollars, a Japanese businessman had already
put in a million dollars to develop it because Sony
Japan said they were gonna fund it. The gangster said
they didn't want the movie in Japan, so Sony pulled out.

(54:18):
And the guy that that had put the million dollars
in told Sony, well, okay, if you do this, I'm
gonna have to commit super colt so because that way
his family, that the debts are wiped away from his family.
And uh, they didn't want that on their record, so
they were like, okay, well fund it man, you can

(54:39):
you know, but it cannot be ever shown in Japan.
And it's a Japanese language movie though. Yeah, and and UM,
I mean I've never seen a movie quite like it.
It was UM for those of you listening. It tells
the story of this writer's life through UM through black
and white flashback as one of the chapter or and

(55:00):
then three of his UM novels are played out on screen,
but in a way that it relates and kind of
tells his story. And it's also those novels are done
in a very uh theatrical manner. Yeah, I mean it's
clear it shot on his down a sound stage. Very
it looks like a stage play, very stylized and just

(55:21):
like a blast of color UM compared to that black
and white. And it's one of these movies that you
can tell it's just a labor of love from Paul Schrader.
I think he even said, like, I knew that we
would never make a dime back on this movie. But
and apparently he also got it made. It was through
George Lucas, yet had to threaten, had to like or no.

(55:44):
The George Lucas hit the studio up and said, you know,
make this movie and they said, and I guess he
was mad at them for something and they were like, well, well,
this makes us even. He was like, yeah, that's cool.
Good friends like that. And I guess in eighty five
that would have been after Empire strikes back, so he

(56:05):
had some serious cloudy at that point. And and so
but the other part of it is that how they
show the movie is it's in the present as well,
and that's film differently than the flashbacks. Yeah, and uh,
the well, no, there's the flashbacks from when he's a kid,
him as a young man, and there then there's him

(56:27):
getting ready to go take over the the fortress. Yeah,
because as the story goes, he is an artent traditionalist
believer in the Bushido code of the samurai and um
and this is his true life story. And he goes
to the to the general's quarters or office to kind
of stage a revolution and fails. Yeah, and that ending

(56:52):
is so tragic when he goes out to the to
the army troops and he's trying to rally them for
a coup and they just are kind of making fun
of him. Yeah, And I don't think I think he knew, um,
at least in the movie. He knew that it was
just going to be a statement, because his whole thing
was uh that artists, Um was it say, uh, there

(57:17):
should be a unity of penance toward right, and that
he wanted to make a he wanted he you know,
he had made his own private army because he was
rich and he also was well loved, so he was
able to get basically a cult of people that were

(57:38):
his private military because militia. Yeah, and he uh went
and took over the the h See, Japan didn't have
an army, they only had like a national guard. And
that was his whole point, was like the US is,
you know, we're a colony now, and so he wanted

(57:59):
to take it over, knowing that he would lose and
you know half and but the whole point was he
wanted to be able to make this speech to the
troops and then kill himself. Yeah. I mean It's a
story that if I had seen it and not known
anything about the real life, I wouldn't It would have
been hard to believe. But then knowing that this was

(58:20):
the true story of this guy's life and how he
went out, it's just amazing. But I think, um, what
I like about it and is how the story is told. Yeah,
just so creative and and you know visually, like you
said that, there's the color and when when they're showing
his works, um he uh. Trader was saying, look, you know,

(58:46):
if you talk about a writer's life, most of their
life is just sitting down writing and it's boring, you know,
and then you're gonna try to, um, heighten the other parts.
And yes, it's not necessarily that exciting. What's the most
exciting about the writer's life is their work. And so
he was like, I have to show his work. Yeah,

(59:08):
it was kind of a stroke of genius. Yeah. And
the score is Philip Glass was beautiful and it's very
similar to Koyana scotts I don't know how you say
that name, but you know that he the first movie
uh Glass did was as a score was Koyana Scotsky.

(59:29):
I don't know how you say it, but uh, and
it's more of a tone poem that's like this feature
length thing of all these images that I guess would
have been cool before there was YouTube. And and uh,
I mean not to but but the score is uh

(59:51):
is Philip Glass, and it's very similar to the score
that this may have been his second one. It's very
similar in melody to uh some of those things. Yeah,
it's just a gorgeous score. And the way he weaves
and inter cuts these pieces together, it's just just unbelievable
and a new traders work. And I've never heard of this,
so uh, this has been really cool. You've turned me

(01:00:13):
onto a lot of new stuff. Well it's like uh,
you know, digging in the crates so um, you know,
like I kind of follow trails just to see if
I find something okay, gets me hyped even in the
you know, like I'll look at really strange stuff that

(01:00:36):
I know I don't like it as a movie. I
like to look at things that failed right, and not
only just to see why they failed, because that really helps,
but sometimes there's something in there that they did really right. Yea,
and which is you know, and um, those things get

(01:00:56):
lost when you throw out the whole movie. That's a
really good point. Not many things are abject failures and
uh and to pick out something cool or noteworthy from
something considered a failure, Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. Um,
like have you ever seen um? Because I should have

(01:01:17):
put this on there just so we could talk about it. Um. Uh,
what is it? One from the Heart? One from the Heart.
So One from the Heart is Francis Ford Coppola's movie
that he did right after Apocalypse Now. Yeah, and it's
a musical with Terry gar Yeah. Yeah, yeah, the opposite
of of Apocalypse Now. Yeah. And uh it's like he

(01:01:40):
wanted to make his cheapest movie ever but then it
ended up being the most expensive movie that that bankrupted
Zoo Tropes studios. But um, the main thing, I don't know.
I think the main thing is that the acting is
terrible and uh. But visually, like they rebuilt Las Vegas

(01:02:02):
on a sound stage or something like that, and um,
visually they do all this crazy stuff with reflections and like,
somebody will be sitting in an apartment and I shouldn't
talk about this because I'll probably steal it for something,
but um, somebody will be sitting in an apartment and

(01:02:24):
there'll be a wall behind them, like they're on their
couch in the apartment and the regular uh you know,
drywall is behind them, and they'll talk about something, and
then all of a sudden, you really, all of a sudden,
it goes dark in the apartment and there's a whole
another set behind the wall that just is able to

(01:02:44):
be seen through the wall because the lights come on
through there. And then we traveled to that other scene physically,
like the camera moves there, and there's there's so many
great transitions in that that they did some amazing stuff
in the the The soundtrack is Tom Waits and Linda Rodenstead,

(01:03:04):
which is strange, probably the corniest stuff Tom Waits has
ever done. But it's, uh, it's yeah, that's I can
objectively see that it's not a good movie, but throughout it,

(01:03:25):
like every scene, there's something amazing being done. And you know,
it's a musical, So I think they just thought like
they did like an old like fifties musical where the
acting is just over the time. Yeah, you know. Interesting,
All right, Well, we finish up with five questions. If
you still have a few minutes, you can be succinct

(01:03:48):
with these if you want or you can talk more
about him. What's the first movie you remember seeing in
the movie theater? Laser Blast. I don't like that one.
Laser Blasts. It's it's not high culture, it's um. And
I remember, I know I must have seen other movies

(01:04:08):
before this, but this is me remembering the theater, like
I remember Star Wars, which had to be before this,
but remembering being in the theater is Laser Blasts. Laserblast
is this movie? Actually, uh, Mr Science Theater did something
on it, but I saw it at the Lux Theater

(01:04:29):
in Oakland, which was like my bolder brother took me this.
It was a twenty four hour theater where they played
Kung Fu flips all night all that kind of stuff
and people going there to sleep and right and um.
But Laser Blast is this. It's made in the seventies.
Is like a big rock and roll and disco soundtrack.

(01:04:50):
And it's this teenager that's like a biker or whatever
and he finds this this alien weapon in the in
in in the day dessert and and it goes over
his arm like it becomes like an arm cannon or whatever.
And he just has this power of this laser and
he can just blow shut up. And uh, and he's

(01:05:14):
going and he's getting back at the bullies and all
the stuff that happens in those kinds of movies, and
you know, um, and and then but the can't arm
cannon slowly is turning him into the alien. And then
the other aliens that are the good aliens are coming
to try to get the blaster away from him because

(01:05:36):
it's a very powerful weapon that they've been searching for,
so laser blast. Yeah, all right, I got even more homework. Uh.
First R rated movie? You remember seeing and knowing that
it was R rated and knowing that I shouldn't be here. Um,
that's the idea. I think it was making love or

(01:06:01):
something like that. Yeah. Yeah, And I was a kid
and and my father took me there and I was
just like it was like him and his friends, and
I guess they didn't get a babysitter. So I was
first of all, I was boring as fun, but then
there was like I was like I shouldn't be in here.
Somebody covered my eyes. Yeah, that sweet innocence. Um, will

(01:06:26):
you walk out of a bad movie. I've already told
you that, you know, I gotta yea. I have let's
put it like this. Have I walked out of a
bad movie? Yes? Uh, I can't remember what it is,
but but it's right. Yeah, who would play? Who would
you cast in the Boots Riley story? I hope that

(01:06:50):
would never get made? Okay. I don't like biopics. Yeah,
like it's never really you know, like there are things
I'm considering doing that are based on people's lives, but
it's when I think that what they mean is more

(01:07:10):
important than what they actually did on a day to
day basis. So the idea of sticking to the truth
is not for me. I would want to tell the
truth through them, through making up some crazy stuff about them. Right, Well,

(01:07:31):
it's no wonder that you love the Straighter movie. Then
very unconventional biopic, Yeah and effective. See I like to
say biopic, but then everybody keeps correcting me and saying
it's biopic. Biopic sounds better, bio is life. And but
instead of yeah, anyway, yeah, I'm I'm a biopic guy. Uh.
And then finally movie going one oh one? What's your

(01:07:54):
movie theater ritual these days? What do you where do
you sit? What do you do? You get? Popcorn? I go,
I go in the middle, like not too close, but
in the middle. I'd like to be able to see
the whole frame there and then um, and I don't
want to be all the way in the back where
there's too much other stuff between the edge of my

(01:08:18):
eyes and the frame. And then um. I used to
be like, well, if I go to the movie theater,
I can have a coke because I don't otherwise I'm
try But now I'm going to the movie so much
like we're doing the screening tonight with yeah, so I can't.

(01:08:39):
I don't, you know, So I don't do that anymore.
And I'm trying to, you know, taking pictures, you know,
went to Sundance and I'm taking pictures next to all
these beautiful actors, and I'm like, funk, I gotta cut
out sugar, you know. Yeah, and uh so yeah, more

(01:08:59):
so to the movie. Yeah yeah, so but yeah, go there, um,
preferably with somebody that's not gonna fall asleep, you know. Um.
And yet I think that's that's all That's all I
have to do is be there in in in the
theater in the middle. I'm good, awesome, thank you, thank

(01:09:23):
you for having me. Yeah, it was a lot of fun.
I got a lot of homeworkings. All right, thanks Matt
co all Right, folks, that was Boots Riley. I think
we can all agree that he is a stand up dude,

(01:09:44):
an incredible talent, uh and a nice guy he uh
before and after we recorded, he was just super friendly
and um didn't know me from Adam, but you could
tell he appreciated where I was coming from. And UM,
I wanted pictures of so he could tweet them out,
which is was usually not the case. It is usually
me asking for the picture so I can use it.

(01:10:07):
But uh, Boots is a really good dude, and I
hope we get to hang out again at some point.
The the invitation is open case he ever comes to
Atlanta again. So we had a great talk about Mishima
Life and four Chapters, as well as some other great movies,
as well as his music and his career uh in
his hometown of Oakland. And everyone should support Boots and
his efforts. Go check out the coup if you haven't.

(01:10:29):
It's a lot of great music out there, and starting
next week, the great great film Sorry to Bother You,
very good movie with the great Lakeith Stanfield, who was
just all over the place these days so you haven't
seen anything quite like this either, So go check out
Sorry to Bother You in theaters and support Boots Riley
in any way you can, and I will task you

(01:10:50):
with that this week. Until next time, go out and
listen to a record by the Coup Do It. You'll
have a good time, I promise. Movie Crush is produced, engineered, edited,

(01:11:12):
and soundtracked by Noel Brown and Ramsay Hunt at How
Stuff Work Studios, pont City Market, Atlanta, Georgia,