August 12, 2025 • 27 mins
What’s more fun than financial debt? Honestly, just about anything! But the team here has a knack for finding the silly side of any subject, and the history of people owing money to each other is no exception. Today, the guys share some out-of-the-box ideas for settling a debt, including paying your rent with a bunch of dead eels (looking at you, medieval England!) and recording an IRS-themed country album (looking at you, Willie Nelson!). They also discover why a small town in Oregon decided to foot the bill for the Boston Tea Party, and reveal which country is the most reliable debtor in the EU (hint, they’re also big into saunas).
Check out Dr. Greenlee’s Eel-Rents Project at historiacartarum.org!
Got a question you’d like us to answer? A rabbit hole you think we should explore? Email higeniuses@gmail.com or leave us a message at (302) 405-5925.
Follow us on Instagram @parttimegenius and Bluesky @parttimegenius.bsky.social!
Photo by Towfiqu Barbhuiya via Unsplash. Thanks, Towfiqu!
Learn more about your ad choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
You're listening to part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio. Yuess what, well, what's that mango? Do you
know that people in medieval England used to pay their
rent with eels? I don't know why anyone would want
multiple eels, much less accept them as a form of payment.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What is this all about?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, this was back before coins were widely available, when
most people just settle their debts with in kind payments.
They usually traded things like eggs or corn or ale,
but one of the most highly prized tender was smoked eels,
and the long snakelike fish was super plentiful in British
rivers back then, so for a stretch of about five
(00:55):
hundred years they were caught and traded as makeshift currency,
and in fact, by the end of the eleventh century,
more than half a million eels were being paid as
rent in England each year, specifically and rent so that
you get the first.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Of the month and you could just send your landlord
a sack of dead eels and they wouldn't kick you
out of your place.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
More than that, they would be thrilled about it, because
eels were a tasty and nutritious food source, and they
were especially nice to have on hand during Lent, which
is when practicing Catholics would abstained from eating meat. But
if a landlord didn't want to eat all of their earnings,
they could always just use the eels to pay their
own debts instead, and the fish were desirable enough that
(01:33):
just about anyone would accept them as payment.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I do imagine the turnaround time has to be pretty
quick on these, right, Like, I'm not sure what the
shelf life is for eel.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I mean that is true, but in most cases the
fish would be salted and smoked and dried so that
they could be swapped around and stored more easily, and
for added portability, they were typically tied together into bundles
of sticks or twenty five eels apiece.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
You know, this really does feel like one of those
that's just too weird to be true.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I mean, Gabe showed me all kinds of written records
to back it up. For example, one of the highest
eel rents that we know came from the village of
Harmston in Lincolnshire, and according to the town ledger, the
residents owed the Earl Hugh of Chester seventy five thousand
eels per year for use of his land.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's a lot of eels where I don't know, maybe not,
I don't really have a reference point.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, it feels like one eel is too many eels
to me. But I love the idea of briefcases full
of eels that you're just dropping on your landlord store.
You know, we were trying to figure out the conversion
rate for something like this, like how much was a
single eel or a stick of eels worth? There is
no way to know for certain, but the lead historian
on eel rents his name is doctor John Wyatt Greenley.
(02:48):
He came up with a pretty solid guests and based
on the numbers found in medieval ledgers, he worked out
that a single eel would be worth about forty three
to eighty five cents in today's money. So if the
upper end of that range, then the residents of Harmston
were paying about sixty three grand in eel rent per year,
which isn't too bad for an entire village.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I guess, I guess until you think about all the
work that had to go into harvesting and curing seventy
five thousand eels, Like that's a lot of extra labor
on top of your actual day job.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Right, Yeah, it's kind of amazing the system held out
as long as it did. Eel rents remained commonplace until
the fourteenth century or so. But it wasn't the hassle
of sourcing them that finally killed the practice. It was
the bubonic plague. So after England's population was decimated in
the mid thirteen hundreds, much of the empty farmland was
repurposed for raising livestock, and once red meat became more
(03:41):
widely available, the demand for eels fell and disappeared almost
completely by the year fifteen hundred. But that's just the
first of nine strange stories we're sharing today, all plucked
from the debt ledgers of history. Let's dive in.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good
friend Mangesh Ticketter. And on the other side of that
soundproof glass wearing a green visor.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And this is a beautiful green visor.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Cranking away on an antique adding machine. That's our friend
and producer Dylan Fagan. Now I don't know what kinds
of numbers he's crunching over there, but he is crunching
them up fast.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Mega, moving so fast. I think he's just pushing random buttons.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I think so, but he looks like he knows what
he's doing. But all right, Well, since today's episode is
all about the history of debt, I thought it'd be
fun to trace the concept back to its source and
find out where and when the first debt was actually
racked up.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I love it, so did you figure it out?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I did not.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
So it turns out there's just no way to pinpoint
it with any real degree of accuracy. And that's because
debt is as old as history itself. So as soon
as humans began putting pen to paper or wedge to tablet, like,
we started keeping track of things like storehouse inventories or
bills of sale private loans. Even in fact, the earliest
known examples of writing come from Mesopotamia. This was about
(05:17):
five thousand years ago, and they aren't works of poetry
or fiction.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
They're actually bookkeeping.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Which is not nearly as romantic as it feels like it.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
H It doesn't.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But you know, there is surprisingly a sweet side to this,
because these tablets didn't just log the accumulation of debts.
They also tracked its cancelation. So there's evidence of wide
scale debt cancelations in Mesopotamia as far back as twenty
four hundred BCE, and the practice continued there periodically for
about a thousand years.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So what kind of debt was being canceled? Like, is
this private debt? Is it national debt?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well, actually, the concept of national debt or public debt
is is really much more of a modern invention than
you might think.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So in the ancient.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
World, all debt was private debt and this is how
it worked. So in agrarian societies, the state would provide
the peasantry with farmland, tools, livestock, and of course water
for irrigation, and at harvest time a portion of the
food they produced would be paid to the state as rent. Unfortunately,
when a harvest was worse than expected, the peasants had
to secure private loans from the upper class in order
(06:22):
to feed themselves and pay the state what they owed,
which of course led to an accumulation of debt, and
if the borrower wasn't able to pay it off in time,
then either they or their family members would be enslaved
by their creditors. Now, obviously this wasn't a great system,
because over time, more and more people were becoming slaves
to their fellow citizens.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, which is not a great recipe for a healthy society.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Not so much.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And that's why it became customary for the state to
wipe the slate clean every few years. This typically happened
during a big public festival in the springtime. The sitting
sovereign would proclaim that everyone's debt was erased, and any
peasants who had been enslaved for unpaid bills were restored
their full citizenship.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's pretty amazing, But it sounds like this was a
kind of a cyclical process, right, so after a few
more lean harvests, a peasant might find themselves right back
in bondage again.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And it's clear from that on again, off again approach
that the rulers of Mesopotamia didn't oppose the practice on
moral grounds. The cancelations were actually away for them to
keep the peace and preserve the status quote, you know,
so that society wouldn't break down altogether. And on that count,
the debt cancelation system actually worked remarkably well, so well
in fact, that it was eventually adopted by neighboring kingdoms,
(07:36):
so you're thinking about places like Assyria, Egypt, Jerusalem, and
Debt cancelation even became a core component of the Jewish
faith as well as early Christianity. For instance, the Book
of Leviticus calls on Christians to hold a quote year
of jubilee every half century.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
This occasion is meant to correct any economic inequalities that
may have arisen over the years, wiping out long standing debts.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
And offering families a fresh dart.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It's wild to think that was like such a common
practice in the ancient world, because it it feels like
such a difficult thing to push through today, like whenever
we talk about canceling college loans or things like that,
there's often so much political pushback.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yeah, no, for sure, And I haven't seen on anybody's
calendar a year of jubilee coming up. But it actually
might be the perfect time to try it again, because
according to a papal bull instituted by the late Pope Francis,
the next jubilee year should.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Be twenty twenty five, which is right now.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I feel like my bank must have missed the memo
on this, but I am glad you brought up debt
forgiveness because there's at least one person who's taking the
Jubilee year to heart, and that is Welsh actor Michael Sheen.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I did not see that one coming.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So he's the guy who plays Tony Blair and all
those British docu dramas, right.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Uh huh. And he's also played the broadcaster David Frost
a few times too. But he's not keeping all that
Blair Frost money to himself because earlier this year she
used his earnings to write off the debt of nearly
nine hundred people in his hometown of Port Talbot, Wales.
And this is actually a story that our good friend
Simon Brewe told me about. But the decline of the
(09:11):
city's steel industry had left many residents struggling for years,
you know, just to make ends meet, and after learning
that many of his former neighbors were deep in debt
as a result of this, Sheen decided to lend a
hand by buying up a million pounds of their collective debt,
which he then canceled.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So the million pounds actually came out of his own pocket. Yeah,
but he definitely used his own money. That said, he
didn't actually have to pay the full million, because by
the time she stepped in, many of the residents' debt
had been bundled together by creditors and sold off to
debt buying companies, and this often happens at the lower price.
So after a lengthy process, the actor was able to
(09:49):
set up his own debt buying company, and then he
acquired Port Talbot's debt for one tenth of its actual value.
All right, so he paid one hundred thousand pounds for
a million pounds worth of debt.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
How does that actually work?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So I yues. The other debt buying companies didn't think
there was much of a chance of anyone actually collecting
on that debt, so they were willing to sell the
rights for a much smaller lump sum. And in most cases,
the residents would have still been on the hook for
the full amount they owed, but thanks to Sheen's generosity,
now they don't have to pay back a single pound.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That is pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's really sweet. And if any listeners want to learn
more about Sheen's experience and his motivations for doing this
whole thing, Channel four produced a documentary chronicling the whole campaign.
It is called Michael Sheen's Secret Million pound Giveaway, and
the show makes the case for reforming the UK's credit
industries so low income families won't have to resort to
(10:41):
high interest payday loans.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
All right, Well, jumping back a bit further in time,
the next fact is about a guy who also paid
off somebody else's hefty debts, but in this case the
tab belonged to the US government. So this was back
in seventeen ninety five, about twelve years after the American Revolution,
and despite Alexander Hamilton's best effort, the nation was struggling
to pay off loans that it had taken from European
(11:04):
allies during the war. Now, the debt totaled over two
million dollars, which is more than fifty one and a
half million dollars in today's money. And even though we
owed all that money, the US was actually trying to
negotiate new loans along the way, which wasn't going over
that well with everybody in Europe. But that's where a
man named James Swan came in. So in seventeen ninety five,
(11:25):
the Scottish American banker used his own money to privately
assume the entire two million dollar debt that we owed
the French. This was hailed by many as a patriotic gesture,
and Swan was indeed a patriot. He actually took part
in the Boston Tea Party, was wounded not once but
twice at the Battle of Bunker Hill. But taking over
the national debt wasn't a completely selfless act on his part.
(11:48):
In fact, he actually managed to turn a tidy profit
from it.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So he didn't go full Michael Sheen and cancel everyone's dead.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
No, no, no, he definitely didn't do that.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Instead, Swan resold America's debts at a profit to domestic
private investors. This meant that the US still had to
pay back the money eventually, but at least we didn't
owe it to foreign governments, and so Swan's payoff helped
the young nations say face on the world stage, also
convinced other countries that it was safe to keep lending
the US money.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
That's pretty incredible, And it's strange to think about a
banker bailing out the US government instead of the other
way around, right, right, right, Yeah, it's not typically the
way that goes. But all right, we've got five more
debt ridden stories left to share, but first let's take
a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where
(12:48):
we're exploring the lighter side of one of humanity's first
and worst inventions, financial debt. Now, before the break, will
you mentioned that James Swan had participated in the Boston
Tea party raid switch, if you'll recall, didn't result in
any debts or serious injuries, But that doesn't mean there
weren't victims. So the British tea merchants whose ships were
(13:09):
raided lost a fortune in merchandise, and amazingly, one of
those companies, Davison Newman, is still trying to recoup with
losses today.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And like, who are.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
They trying to recoup this from? Like are they shaking
down the partygoer's descendants or what?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
No shakedowns, but they are accepting donations. So back in
seventeen seventy four, sixteen chests of tea belonging to the
Davison Newman company were chucked into the water during the
Boston Tea Party and while the company's founders petitioned King
George to reimburse them for its value, which was four
hundred and eighty British pounds. The Crown actually declined to
(13:44):
pay that. They ended up losing more tea in other raids,
and appeals for those claims were also rejected. And that's
how it went on for seven generations of the company
until finally, in nineteen sixty one, the residents of Jackson County, Oregon,
decided to make amends.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Wait, Oregon.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Last time I checked, it was nowhere near Boston. So
what did they have to do with the Boston Tea Party?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Nothing? Apparently it still was weighing on their consciences. This
woman named missus Burt Free. In nineteen sixty one, she
spearheaded a local campaign to pay back her county's fair
share of the company's losses. After adjusting for inflation, they
determined that the long lost shipment was worth just under
five thousand dollars, So they divided that number by the
(14:28):
then current population of the United States and calculated the
portionate share owed by residents of Jackson County, which was
like what five dollars or a dollar ninety six? So
the money was contributed by seventeen residents and was delivered
as a check along with the letter of explanation from
the mayor of the largest city in Jackson County.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
That is such a ridiculous amount.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
It actually reminds me of the scene from The Jerk
where Steve Martin's having to sign the checks for the
class action lawsuit her life four dollars and twelve cents
or whatever it was. But it is such a ridiculous amount,
like it almost feels like an insult. But do we
know what Davison Newman thought of all this?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well, they apparently appreciated the gesture because a spokesman accepted
the check in person. His name was Leslie Simons, and
he said the company hoped this would be the first
of many SUSH payments. The last yeah quote, the government
never gave us a peep. Bostonians simply smiled. But Jackson County,
(15:27):
oh they are fine folk. Now we are waiting to
hear from the rest of Oregon's counties and from the
other forty nine states, right right, right?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So did actually anything come from all the waiting?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Nope, the company hasn't received another direct payment from the public,
and you know, I don't think they're really expecting to
write oh.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Wow, which makes that bug ninety from Oregon just so
much sweeter.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That's pretty wild, all right.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Okay, speaking of long standing debts, did you know that
Finland is the only country to fully pay back its debts.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
From World War One? Did you know that? Did you
have your listen?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Really, most of your borrowed money from the US during
the war, but by the time the first payments came
due in the nineteen twenties, most of them were actually
still too cash strapped to afford it. Now, this situation
only worsened with the onset of the Great Depression. So finally,
in nineteen thirty one, President Hoover granted a moratorium on
the collection of war debt. This postponement was only meant
(16:19):
to last a year, but European borrowers treated it like
a permanent pardon, so much so that when the repayments
were scheduled to resume in nineteen thirty three, only a
single country cut the US.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
A check, and that was, of course Finland.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Now, the country continued to make regular payments until nineteen
seventy six, when its loan was paid in full, and
that was right on schedule.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I mean, I guess it's cool that they paid us back,
But did Finland just not know that everyone else had
stopped paying or what.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
But you know, they didn't do it by accident or
even out of a sense of moral obligation. Instead, it
was actually part of an effort to improve Finland's reputation.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
As a reliable debtor.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Now the country had earned a bad reputation in the
nineteen twenty after borrowing a large sum of gold from France,
only to pay it back with devalued Finnish currency. Now,
the French wound up losing money on the deal, and
the international markets took notice, so Finland's foreign ministry actually
had to go into damage control here. Now they knew
that other European countries had no intention of resuming payments,
(17:18):
and since Finland's debt to the US was a fairly
small percentage of its annual GDP, they decided it was
a good idea to just go ahead and pay up
in the hopes of scoring some good press.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And did it work.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It actually worked really, really well, So between nineteen thirty
three and nineteen thirty six, nearly three thousand stories were
published in American newspapers, all of them praising Finland for
paying its due when no one else would So one
of my favorites is this nineteen thirty five piece from
the Indianapolis Times, and it says, quote, on December fifteenth,
Finland will pay her semi annual war debt installment of
(17:51):
about a quarter of a million dollars. It's sure nice
to think one nation will drop a remembrance in the
lean old sock this year. Now on our best finish,
we wish for a merry Christmas housekoo yalua.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I said it just right, Ma, didn't I love it?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Nailed it?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You didn't know I spoke Finnish.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I did not know that. But I'm guessing after that
Finland could borrow money from whoever they wanted, right.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I mean pretty much. The pr campaign works so well
that a fact about Finland's reliability was written into American textbooks,
and decades later, many people still refer to Finland as
the country that pays its debts.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So the Finish are basically the Lanisters of the EU,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I mean, I don't think they'll get along quite so
well with their siblings, but otherwise sure.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Well, here's another story of a debt repayment, or at
least a partial one. So do you remember the early
nineties when Willie Nelson owed the IRS like tens of
millions of dollars in unpaid taxes.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And they I think they like raided his house for
something too, right, Yeah, it was worse than that.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So the IRS actually seized Nelson's property in six different
states on the same day, and the federal agents who
raided his primary home in Austin, Texas also stock thousands
of his personal belongings, including instruments, master recordings, studio equipment,
and the idea was to sell the items at auction
to help settle the singer's enormous tax bill, but things
(19:11):
didn't quite go as planned. So Willie had seen the
writing on the wall ahead of the raid and made
sure he was away golfing in Hawaii when the IRS
agents arrived.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Wait, Willie Nelson played golf. I didn't know that. That's
almost episode. This episode needs to go in a different
direction now.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Anyway, when he was golfing, he also had his daughter
remove his favorite guitar from his Texas home and chip
it to him and Maui for safekeeping. And at the
time he told the press, as long as I got
my guitar, I'll be fine. But he didn't know how
right he was, because not only did he get to
keep his beloved guitar, he also got back most of
(19:50):
his other stuff. The IRS held several public auctions in
Texas to sell off his property, but they didn't make
nearly as much money as expected because most Texans were
fused to bid out of respect for Willie Nelson, and
although his branch did sell, the bidder turned out to
be a fan who gave the property right back to Willie,
which I'm sure the IRS just love.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
To see, right, Yeah, not so much.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
But the agents realized the auctions were getting them nowhere,
so they sold off his remaining items as a lot
price that just seven thousand dollars. This meant that the
bulk of the debt was still unpaid, so in nineteen
ninety one, the IRS worked out an unusual deal. Nelson
agreed to record a two disc compilation album, with part
of the proceeds going toward what he still owed, and
(20:34):
to keep recording costs as low as possible, he decided
to record stripped down acoustic versions of some of his
pre existing songs, plus a few new ones. The album
was called Quote the Irs Tapes, Who Will buy My
Memories question Mark, and it featured titles like remember the
Good Times and what can You Do to Me Now?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Wow? Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
It was released in December of nineteen ninety two and
eventually chipped away at about three point six million dollars
of Willie's tax debt, which you know, still wasn't anywhere
close to what he owed. His full tab was closer
to thirty two million dollars after taxes and penalties. But
I think the IRS was sick of chasing him by
that point, because after he made a few more payments,
(21:16):
the agency retired his remaining debt in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I mean, Willie Nelson's great in all, but I'm not
sure how fair this whole thing feels like you don't
hear about the IRS retiring.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
The debt of many non Grammy winners.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, and Willy obviously knew he'd gone off light, because
two years later, in an interview with Rolling Stone, he said,
quote mentally, it.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Was a breeze.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
They didn't bother me. They didn't come out and confiscate
anything other than that first day, and they didn't show
up at every gig and demand money. I appreciated that
and then we teamed up and put out a record.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
It's nice to know there were no hard feelings in
the end. All right, Well, here's a story about one
of the most unjust and contentious debt repayments of all time. Ango, oh,
I'm excited to it's it's pretty much a doozy. So
I'm sure you're aware of that Haiti among the poorest
nations in the world. But did you know that's partly
because it was forced to pay an exorbitant independence debt
And this was to France.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So I vaguely remember this. I think the Times did
a piece on this a while back, but it had
to do with like the revolution.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Right sort of.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
So back in eighteen oh four, the enslaved Haitians defeated
their French oppressors and claimed independence. But two decades later,
France came back with a fleet of warships and demanded
that Haiti pay one hundred and fifty million francs to
officially purchase the territory. Now, they basically forced Haitians to
choose between crippling debt or another war, and the price
(22:37):
the French king demanded made it crystal clear that he
was just doing this out of pure racist spite.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So Haiti's only about ten thousand square miles, which is
roughly the size of the state of Maryland. Yet France
wanted ten times the amount it had charged the US
for the entire Louisiana purchase, which if you remember, pretty
much doubled the size of the US at that point.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
That's really horrible. So how did the Haitians respet onto this?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I mean, they didn't really have much of a choice here,
so they were still finding their footing as an independent nation,
didn't have the resources to fight a second revolution. But
that also meant the country couldn't afford to pay France's
ridiculous price upfront. So to add insult to injury, Haiti
wound up taking out loans with these sky high interest
rates from of course, a French bank, and it took
(23:22):
Haiti one hundred and twenty two years to pay off
the debt, which at final tally was somewhere between twenty
and thirty billion dollars in today's money, so an enormous
summer money.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
It is incredible and horrible. Well, here is a bizarre
one I just heard about in twenty fourteen, A whole
mountain of ancient Roman debt was discovered during the construction
of a Bloomberg office building in London. More than four
hundred wooden writing tablets were found at the dig site,
and most of them turned out to be contracts and
(23:53):
loan notes from the first century CE to.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Like two thousand year old. IOUs.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I'm actually surprised the wood was even lessible after all
that time.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
You know that you said they were underground.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah. It took archaeologists about two years to translate the
eighty eight best preserved of these tablets. The slow process
was partly because the text was written in Latin and
also incursive, but also because each word had been scratched
into a wax coated wood with an iron stylist. None
of this made for the neatest penmanship. But what is
interesting is that debt records can tell you a lot
(24:24):
about the people who made them. So for instance, apparently
Titus of London got duped into lending money to some
shady characters, and now he is the laughingstock of the marketplace.
So is that from one of those tablets. But by
the way, I do love that you're spreading first century
gossip here. I mean, it's not gossip. It is all
there in wax and wood. It was plain his day.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
But since you introduced this to Eel Rents and the
good people of Jackson County, I think you're going to
win today's trophy.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
The only thing is I don't have it with me,
So if you don't mind, can I can I give
this to you later? Can I just owe you on
this one?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah? Let's say six and a quarter interest the quarterly
sire Pretty good? Right? Well, that is it for today's episode.
Thank you for the trophy. We'll be back next week
with another brand new episode. In the meantime, if you
enjoy the show, subscribe on your favorite podcast stapp leave
us a five star rating and interview, and give us
a call if you have a question or just want
(25:20):
to say hi. The number is three zero two four
oh five five nine two five. And actually I just
want to play you a message we got because it
really made me smile. Hi.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
This is Christina, the Curator of Fun here in Spokane, Washington.
I am the owner of the friendliest store in Spokane,
the Plucky Deck. So I am calling because I am
a big fan of part time Genius. I have been
listening to you guys for over five years. I really
(25:55):
do believe it's right when you first began, and each
time you come back into my feed, I get so
so excited. I love your show. Keep up the good work,
and if I can ever be of service, just let
me know.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
All right, I think Christina Win's best job title the
curator of Fun at the Plucky Duck.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I mean, there's no topping that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I know. Every town should have a curator of fun.
So thank you so much Christina for calling in. We
love hearing from you all, so please keep them coming.
And from Dylan Gade, Mary, Will and myself, thank you
so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a production
(26:44):
of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will
Pearson and me Mongashtikler and research by our good pal
Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by
the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klan. The
show is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvel and
Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha Gate trustee
(27:08):
Dara Potts and Viney Shore. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
You're listening to part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio. Yuess what, well, what's that mango? Do you
know that people in medieval England used to pay their
rent with eels? I don't know why anyone would want
multiple eels, much less accept them as a form of payment.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
What is this all about?
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Well, this was back before coins were widely available, when
most people just settle their debts with in kind payments.
They usually traded things like eggs or corn or ale,
but one of the most highly prized tender was smoked eels,
and the long snakelike fish was super plentiful in British
rivers back then, so for a stretch of about five
(00:55):
hundred years they were caught and traded as makeshift currency,
and in fact, by the end of the eleventh century,
more than half a million eels were being paid as
rent in England each year, specifically and rent so that
you get the first.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Of the month and you could just send your landlord
a sack of dead eels and they wouldn't kick you
out of your place.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
More than that, they would be thrilled about it, because
eels were a tasty and nutritious food source, and they
were especially nice to have on hand during Lent, which
is when practicing Catholics would abstained from eating meat. But
if a landlord didn't want to eat all of their earnings,
they could always just use the eels to pay their
own debts instead, and the fish were desirable enough that
(01:33):
just about anyone would accept them as payment.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
I do imagine the turnaround time has to be pretty
quick on these, right, Like, I'm not sure what the
shelf life is for eel.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
I mean that is true, but in most cases the
fish would be salted and smoked and dried so that
they could be swapped around and stored more easily, and
for added portability, they were typically tied together into bundles
of sticks or twenty five eels apiece.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
You know, this really does feel like one of those
that's just too weird to be true.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
I mean, Gabe showed me all kinds of written records
to back it up. For example, one of the highest
eel rents that we know came from the village of
Harmston in Lincolnshire, and according to the town ledger, the
residents owed the Earl Hugh of Chester seventy five thousand
eels per year for use of his land.
Speaker 3 (02:21):
It's a lot of eels where I don't know, maybe not,
I don't really have a reference point.
Speaker 1 (02:25):
Yeah, it feels like one eel is too many eels
to me. But I love the idea of briefcases full
of eels that you're just dropping on your landlord store.
You know, we were trying to figure out the conversion
rate for something like this, like how much was a
single eel or a stick of eels worth? There is
no way to know for certain, but the lead historian
on eel rents his name is doctor John Wyatt Greenley.
(02:48):
He came up with a pretty solid guests and based
on the numbers found in medieval ledgers, he worked out
that a single eel would be worth about forty three
to eighty five cents in today's money. So if the
upper end of that range, then the residents of Harmston
were paying about sixty three grand in eel rent per year,
which isn't too bad for an entire village.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
I guess, I guess until you think about all the
work that had to go into harvesting and curing seventy
five thousand eels, Like that's a lot of extra labor
on top of your actual day job.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Right, Yeah, it's kind of amazing the system held out
as long as it did. Eel rents remained commonplace until
the fourteenth century or so. But it wasn't the hassle
of sourcing them that finally killed the practice. It was
the bubonic plague. So after England's population was decimated in
the mid thirteen hundreds, much of the empty farmland was
repurposed for raising livestock, and once red meat became more
(03:41):
widely available, the demand for eels fell and disappeared almost
completely by the year fifteen hundred. But that's just the
first of nine strange stories we're sharing today, all plucked
from the debt ledgers of history. Let's dive in.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Hey, their podcast listeners, welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson and as always I'm joined by my good
friend Mangesh Ticketter. And on the other side of that
soundproof glass wearing a green visor.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
And this is a beautiful green visor.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Cranking away on an antique adding machine. That's our friend
and producer Dylan Fagan. Now I don't know what kinds
of numbers he's crunching over there, but he is crunching
them up fast.
Speaker 1 (04:36):
Mega, moving so fast. I think he's just pushing random buttons.
Speaker 3 (04:39):
I think so, but he looks like he knows what
he's doing. But all right, Well, since today's episode is
all about the history of debt, I thought it'd be
fun to trace the concept back to its source and
find out where and when the first debt was actually
racked up.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
I love it, so did you figure it out?
Speaker 2 (04:54):
I did not.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
So it turns out there's just no way to pinpoint
it with any real degree of accuracy. And that's because
debt is as old as history itself. So as soon
as humans began putting pen to paper or wedge to tablet, like,
we started keeping track of things like storehouse inventories or
bills of sale private loans. Even in fact, the earliest
known examples of writing come from Mesopotamia. This was about
(05:17):
five thousand years ago, and they aren't works of poetry
or fiction.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
They're actually bookkeeping.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
Which is not nearly as romantic as it feels like it.
Speaker 2 (05:26):
H It doesn't.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
But you know, there is surprisingly a sweet side to this,
because these tablets didn't just log the accumulation of debts.
They also tracked its cancelation. So there's evidence of wide
scale debt cancelations in Mesopotamia as far back as twenty
four hundred BCE, and the practice continued there periodically for
about a thousand years.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So what kind of debt was being canceled? Like, is
this private debt? Is it national debt?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
Well, actually, the concept of national debt or public debt
is is really much more of a modern invention than
you might think.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
So in the ancient.
Speaker 3 (06:00):
World, all debt was private debt and this is how
it worked. So in agrarian societies, the state would provide
the peasantry with farmland, tools, livestock, and of course water
for irrigation, and at harvest time a portion of the
food they produced would be paid to the state as rent. Unfortunately,
when a harvest was worse than expected, the peasants had
to secure private loans from the upper class in order
(06:22):
to feed themselves and pay the state what they owed,
which of course led to an accumulation of debt, and
if the borrower wasn't able to pay it off in time,
then either they or their family members would be enslaved
by their creditors. Now, obviously this wasn't a great system,
because over time, more and more people were becoming slaves
to their fellow citizens.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Yeah, which is not a great recipe for a healthy society.
Speaker 2 (06:44):
Not so much.
Speaker 3 (06:45):
And that's why it became customary for the state to
wipe the slate clean every few years. This typically happened
during a big public festival in the springtime. The sitting
sovereign would proclaim that everyone's debt was erased, and any
peasants who had been enslaved for unpaid bills were restored
their full citizenship.
Speaker 1 (07:03):
That's pretty amazing, But it sounds like this was a
kind of a cyclical process, right, so after a few
more lean harvests, a peasant might find themselves right back
in bondage again.
Speaker 2 (07:12):
That's exactly right.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
And it's clear from that on again, off again approach
that the rulers of Mesopotamia didn't oppose the practice on
moral grounds. The cancelations were actually away for them to
keep the peace and preserve the status quote, you know,
so that society wouldn't break down altogether. And on that count,
the debt cancelation system actually worked remarkably well, so well
in fact, that it was eventually adopted by neighboring kingdoms,
(07:36):
so you're thinking about places like Assyria, Egypt, Jerusalem, and
Debt cancelation even became a core component of the Jewish
faith as well as early Christianity. For instance, the Book
of Leviticus calls on Christians to hold a quote year
of jubilee every half century.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
This occasion is meant to correct any economic inequalities that
may have arisen over the years, wiping out long standing debts.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
And offering families a fresh dart.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It's wild to think that was like such a common
practice in the ancient world, because it it feels like
such a difficult thing to push through today, like whenever
we talk about canceling college loans or things like that,
there's often so much political pushback.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Yeah, no, for sure, And I haven't seen on anybody's
calendar a year of jubilee coming up. But it actually
might be the perfect time to try it again, because
according to a papal bull instituted by the late Pope Francis,
the next jubilee year should.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
Be twenty twenty five, which is right now.
Speaker 1 (08:33):
I feel like my bank must have missed the memo
on this, but I am glad you brought up debt
forgiveness because there's at least one person who's taking the
Jubilee year to heart, and that is Welsh actor Michael Sheen.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
I did not see that one coming.
Speaker 3 (08:46):
So he's the guy who plays Tony Blair and all
those British docu dramas, right.
Speaker 1 (08:50):
Uh huh. And he's also played the broadcaster David Frost
a few times too. But he's not keeping all that
Blair Frost money to himself because earlier this year she
used his earnings to write off the debt of nearly
nine hundred people in his hometown of Port Talbot, Wales.
And this is actually a story that our good friend
Simon Brewe told me about. But the decline of the
(09:11):
city's steel industry had left many residents struggling for years,
you know, just to make ends meet, and after learning
that many of his former neighbors were deep in debt
as a result of this, Sheen decided to lend a
hand by buying up a million pounds of their collective debt,
which he then canceled.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
So the million pounds actually came out of his own pocket. Yeah,
but he definitely used his own money. That said, he
didn't actually have to pay the full million, because by
the time she stepped in, many of the residents' debt
had been bundled together by creditors and sold off to
debt buying companies, and this often happens at the lower price.
So after a lengthy process, the actor was able to
(09:49):
set up his own debt buying company, and then he
acquired Port Talbot's debt for one tenth of its actual value.
All right, so he paid one hundred thousand pounds for
a million pounds worth of debt.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
How does that actually work?
Speaker 1 (10:01):
So I yues. The other debt buying companies didn't think
there was much of a chance of anyone actually collecting
on that debt, so they were willing to sell the
rights for a much smaller lump sum. And in most cases,
the residents would have still been on the hook for
the full amount they owed, but thanks to Sheen's generosity,
now they don't have to pay back a single pound.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
That is pretty amazing.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
That's really sweet. And if any listeners want to learn
more about Sheen's experience and his motivations for doing this
whole thing, Channel four produced a documentary chronicling the whole campaign.
It is called Michael Sheen's Secret Million pound Giveaway, and
the show makes the case for reforming the UK's credit
industries so low income families won't have to resort to
(10:41):
high interest payday loans.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
All right, Well, jumping back a bit further in time,
the next fact is about a guy who also paid
off somebody else's hefty debts, but in this case the
tab belonged to the US government. So this was back
in seventeen ninety five, about twelve years after the American Revolution,
and despite Alexander Hamilton's best effort, the nation was struggling
to pay off loans that it had taken from European
(11:04):
allies during the war. Now, the debt totaled over two
million dollars, which is more than fifty one and a
half million dollars in today's money. And even though we
owed all that money, the US was actually trying to
negotiate new loans along the way, which wasn't going over
that well with everybody in Europe. But that's where a
man named James Swan came in. So in seventeen ninety five,
(11:25):
the Scottish American banker used his own money to privately
assume the entire two million dollar debt that we owed
the French. This was hailed by many as a patriotic gesture,
and Swan was indeed a patriot. He actually took part
in the Boston Tea Party, was wounded not once but
twice at the Battle of Bunker Hill. But taking over
the national debt wasn't a completely selfless act on his part.
(11:48):
In fact, he actually managed to turn a tidy profit
from it.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So he didn't go full Michael Sheen and cancel everyone's dead.
Speaker 2 (11:55):
No, no, no, he definitely didn't do that.
Speaker 3 (11:56):
Instead, Swan resold America's debts at a profit to domestic
private investors. This meant that the US still had to
pay back the money eventually, but at least we didn't
owe it to foreign governments, and so Swan's payoff helped
the young nations say face on the world stage, also
convinced other countries that it was safe to keep lending
the US money.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
That's pretty incredible, And it's strange to think about a
banker bailing out the US government instead of the other
way around, right, right, right, Yeah, it's not typically the
way that goes. But all right, we've got five more
debt ridden stories left to share, but first let's take
a quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius, where
(12:48):
we're exploring the lighter side of one of humanity's first
and worst inventions, financial debt. Now, before the break, will
you mentioned that James Swan had participated in the Boston
Tea party raid switch, if you'll recall, didn't result in
any debts or serious injuries, But that doesn't mean there
weren't victims. So the British tea merchants whose ships were
(13:09):
raided lost a fortune in merchandise, and amazingly, one of
those companies, Davison Newman, is still trying to recoup with
losses today.
Speaker 2 (13:18):
And like, who are.
Speaker 3 (13:19):
They trying to recoup this from? Like are they shaking
down the partygoer's descendants or what?
Speaker 1 (13:24):
No shakedowns, but they are accepting donations. So back in
seventeen seventy four, sixteen chests of tea belonging to the
Davison Newman company were chucked into the water during the
Boston Tea Party and while the company's founders petitioned King
George to reimburse them for its value, which was four
hundred and eighty British pounds. The Crown actually declined to
(13:44):
pay that. They ended up losing more tea in other raids,
and appeals for those claims were also rejected. And that's
how it went on for seven generations of the company
until finally, in nineteen sixty one, the residents of Jackson County, Oregon,
decided to make amends.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Wait, Oregon.
Speaker 3 (14:02):
Last time I checked, it was nowhere near Boston. So
what did they have to do with the Boston Tea Party?
Speaker 1 (14:06):
Nothing? Apparently it still was weighing on their consciences. This
woman named missus Burt Free. In nineteen sixty one, she
spearheaded a local campaign to pay back her county's fair
share of the company's losses. After adjusting for inflation, they
determined that the long lost shipment was worth just under
five thousand dollars, So they divided that number by the
(14:28):
then current population of the United States and calculated the
portionate share owed by residents of Jackson County, which was
like what five dollars or a dollar ninety six? So
the money was contributed by seventeen residents and was delivered
as a check along with the letter of explanation from
the mayor of the largest city in Jackson County.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
That is such a ridiculous amount.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
It actually reminds me of the scene from The Jerk
where Steve Martin's having to sign the checks for the
class action lawsuit her life four dollars and twelve cents
or whatever it was. But it is such a ridiculous amount,
like it almost feels like an insult. But do we
know what Davison Newman thought of all this?
Speaker 1 (15:07):
Well, they apparently appreciated the gesture because a spokesman accepted
the check in person. His name was Leslie Simons, and
he said the company hoped this would be the first
of many SUSH payments. The last yeah quote, the government
never gave us a peep. Bostonians simply smiled. But Jackson County,
(15:27):
oh they are fine folk. Now we are waiting to
hear from the rest of Oregon's counties and from the
other forty nine states, right right, right?
Speaker 2 (15:35):
So did actually anything come from all the waiting?
Speaker 1 (15:37):
Nope, the company hasn't received another direct payment from the public,
and you know, I don't think they're really expecting to
write oh.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Wow, which makes that bug ninety from Oregon just so
much sweeter.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
That's pretty wild, all right.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Okay, speaking of long standing debts, did you know that
Finland is the only country to fully pay back its debts.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
From World War One? Did you know that? Did you
have your listen?
Speaker 3 (15:58):
Really, most of your borrowed money from the US during
the war, but by the time the first payments came
due in the nineteen twenties, most of them were actually
still too cash strapped to afford it. Now, this situation
only worsened with the onset of the Great Depression. So finally,
in nineteen thirty one, President Hoover granted a moratorium on
the collection of war debt. This postponement was only meant
(16:19):
to last a year, but European borrowers treated it like
a permanent pardon, so much so that when the repayments
were scheduled to resume in nineteen thirty three, only a
single country cut the US.
Speaker 2 (16:30):
A check, and that was, of course Finland.
Speaker 3 (16:32):
Now, the country continued to make regular payments until nineteen
seventy six, when its loan was paid in full, and
that was right on schedule.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I mean, I guess it's cool that they paid us back,
But did Finland just not know that everyone else had
stopped paying or what.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah, I was wondering the same thing.
Speaker 3 (16:47):
But you know, they didn't do it by accident or
even out of a sense of moral obligation. Instead, it
was actually part of an effort to improve Finland's reputation.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
As a reliable debtor.
Speaker 3 (16:57):
Now the country had earned a bad reputation in the
nineteen twenty after borrowing a large sum of gold from France,
only to pay it back with devalued Finnish currency. Now,
the French wound up losing money on the deal, and
the international markets took notice, so Finland's foreign ministry actually
had to go into damage control here. Now they knew
that other European countries had no intention of resuming payments,
(17:18):
and since Finland's debt to the US was a fairly
small percentage of its annual GDP, they decided it was
a good idea to just go ahead and pay up
in the hopes of scoring some good press.
Speaker 1 (17:27):
And did it work.
Speaker 3 (17:28):
It actually worked really, really well, So between nineteen thirty
three and nineteen thirty six, nearly three thousand stories were
published in American newspapers, all of them praising Finland for
paying its due when no one else would So one
of my favorites is this nineteen thirty five piece from
the Indianapolis Times, and it says, quote, on December fifteenth,
Finland will pay her semi annual war debt installment of
(17:51):
about a quarter of a million dollars. It's sure nice
to think one nation will drop a remembrance in the
lean old sock this year. Now on our best finish,
we wish for a merry Christmas housekoo yalua.
Speaker 2 (18:04):
I said it just right, Ma, didn't I love it?
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Nailed it?
Speaker 2 (18:07):
You didn't know I spoke Finnish.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
I did not know that. But I'm guessing after that
Finland could borrow money from whoever they wanted, right.
Speaker 3 (18:13):
I mean pretty much. The pr campaign works so well
that a fact about Finland's reliability was written into American textbooks,
and decades later, many people still refer to Finland as
the country that pays its debts.
Speaker 1 (18:26):
So the Finish are basically the Lanisters of the EU,
that's right.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
I mean, I don't think they'll get along quite so
well with their siblings, but otherwise sure.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Well, here's another story of a debt repayment, or at
least a partial one. So do you remember the early
nineties when Willie Nelson owed the IRS like tens of
millions of dollars in unpaid taxes.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
And they I think they like raided his house for
something too, right, Yeah, it was worse than that.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
So the IRS actually seized Nelson's property in six different
states on the same day, and the federal agents who
raided his primary home in Austin, Texas also stock thousands
of his personal belongings, including instruments, master recordings, studio equipment,
and the idea was to sell the items at auction
to help settle the singer's enormous tax bill, but things
(19:11):
didn't quite go as planned. So Willie had seen the
writing on the wall ahead of the raid and made
sure he was away golfing in Hawaii when the IRS
agents arrived.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Wait, Willie Nelson played golf. I didn't know that. That's
almost episode. This episode needs to go in a different
direction now.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:30):
Anyway, when he was golfing, he also had his daughter
remove his favorite guitar from his Texas home and chip
it to him and Maui for safekeeping. And at the
time he told the press, as long as I got
my guitar, I'll be fine. But he didn't know how
right he was, because not only did he get to
keep his beloved guitar, he also got back most of
(19:50):
his other stuff. The IRS held several public auctions in
Texas to sell off his property, but they didn't make
nearly as much money as expected because most Texans were
fused to bid out of respect for Willie Nelson, and
although his branch did sell, the bidder turned out to
be a fan who gave the property right back to Willie,
which I'm sure the IRS just love.
Speaker 2 (20:12):
To see, right, Yeah, not so much.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
But the agents realized the auctions were getting them nowhere,
so they sold off his remaining items as a lot
price that just seven thousand dollars. This meant that the
bulk of the debt was still unpaid, so in nineteen
ninety one, the IRS worked out an unusual deal. Nelson
agreed to record a two disc compilation album, with part
of the proceeds going toward what he still owed, and
(20:34):
to keep recording costs as low as possible, he decided
to record stripped down acoustic versions of some of his
pre existing songs, plus a few new ones. The album
was called Quote the Irs Tapes, Who Will buy My
Memories question Mark, and it featured titles like remember the
Good Times and what can You Do to Me Now?
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Wow? Okay.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
It was released in December of nineteen ninety two and
eventually chipped away at about three point six million dollars
of Willie's tax debt, which you know, still wasn't anywhere
close to what he owed. His full tab was closer
to thirty two million dollars after taxes and penalties. But
I think the IRS was sick of chasing him by
that point, because after he made a few more payments,
(21:16):
the agency retired his remaining debt in nineteen ninety three.
Speaker 3 (21:20):
I mean, Willie Nelson's great in all, but I'm not
sure how fair this whole thing feels like you don't
hear about the IRS retiring.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
The debt of many non Grammy winners.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
Yeah, and Willy obviously knew he'd gone off light, because
two years later, in an interview with Rolling Stone, he said,
quote mentally, it.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Was a breeze.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
They didn't bother me. They didn't come out and confiscate
anything other than that first day, and they didn't show
up at every gig and demand money. I appreciated that
and then we teamed up and put out a record.
Speaker 3 (21:47):
It's nice to know there were no hard feelings in
the end. All right, Well, here's a story about one
of the most unjust and contentious debt repayments of all time. Ango, oh,
I'm excited to it's it's pretty much a doozy. So
I'm sure you're aware of that Haiti among the poorest
nations in the world. But did you know that's partly
because it was forced to pay an exorbitant independence debt
And this was to France.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
So I vaguely remember this. I think the Times did
a piece on this a while back, but it had
to do with like the revolution.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Right sort of.
Speaker 3 (22:16):
So back in eighteen oh four, the enslaved Haitians defeated
their French oppressors and claimed independence. But two decades later,
France came back with a fleet of warships and demanded
that Haiti pay one hundred and fifty million francs to
officially purchase the territory. Now, they basically forced Haitians to
choose between crippling debt or another war, and the price
(22:37):
the French king demanded made it crystal clear that he
was just doing this out of pure racist spite.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
You know.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
So Haiti's only about ten thousand square miles, which is
roughly the size of the state of Maryland. Yet France
wanted ten times the amount it had charged the US
for the entire Louisiana purchase, which if you remember, pretty
much doubled the size of the US at that point.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
That's really horrible. So how did the Haitians respet onto this?
Speaker 3 (23:00):
I mean, they didn't really have much of a choice here,
so they were still finding their footing as an independent nation,
didn't have the resources to fight a second revolution. But
that also meant the country couldn't afford to pay France's
ridiculous price upfront. So to add insult to injury, Haiti
wound up taking out loans with these sky high interest
rates from of course, a French bank, and it took
(23:22):
Haiti one hundred and twenty two years to pay off
the debt, which at final tally was somewhere between twenty
and thirty billion dollars in today's money, so an enormous
summer money.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
It is incredible and horrible. Well, here is a bizarre
one I just heard about in twenty fourteen, A whole
mountain of ancient Roman debt was discovered during the construction
of a Bloomberg office building in London. More than four
hundred wooden writing tablets were found at the dig site,
and most of them turned out to be contracts and
(23:53):
loan notes from the first century CE to.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Like two thousand year old. IOUs.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
I'm actually surprised the wood was even lessible after all
that time.
Speaker 2 (24:01):
You know that you said they were underground.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Yeah. It took archaeologists about two years to translate the
eighty eight best preserved of these tablets. The slow process
was partly because the text was written in Latin and
also incursive, but also because each word had been scratched
into a wax coated wood with an iron stylist. None
of this made for the neatest penmanship. But what is
interesting is that debt records can tell you a lot
(24:24):
about the people who made them. So for instance, apparently
Titus of London got duped into lending money to some
shady characters, and now he is the laughingstock of the marketplace.
So is that from one of those tablets. But by
the way, I do love that you're spreading first century
gossip here. I mean, it's not gossip. It is all
there in wax and wood. It was plain his day.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
But since you introduced this to Eel Rents and the
good people of Jackson County, I think you're going to
win today's trophy.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Now.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
The only thing is I don't have it with me,
So if you don't mind, can I can I give
this to you later? Can I just owe you on
this one?
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah? Let's say six and a quarter interest the quarterly
sire Pretty good? Right? Well, that is it for today's episode.
Thank you for the trophy. We'll be back next week
with another brand new episode. In the meantime, if you
enjoy the show, subscribe on your favorite podcast stapp leave
us a five star rating and interview, and give us
a call if you have a question or just want
(25:20):
to say hi. The number is three zero two four
oh five five nine two five. And actually I just
want to play you a message we got because it
really made me smile. Hi.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
This is Christina, the Curator of Fun here in Spokane, Washington.
I am the owner of the friendliest store in Spokane,
the Plucky Deck. So I am calling because I am
a big fan of part time Genius. I have been
listening to you guys for over five years. I really
(25:55):
do believe it's right when you first began, and each
time you come back into my feed, I get so
so excited. I love your show. Keep up the good work,
and if I can ever be of service, just let
me know.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
All right, I think Christina Win's best job title the
curator of Fun at the Plucky Duck.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I mean, there's no topping that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I know. Every town should have a curator of fun.
So thank you so much Christina for calling in. We
love hearing from you all, so please keep them coming.
And from Dylan Gade, Mary, Will and myself, thank you
so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a production
(26:44):
of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by Will
Pearson and me Mongashtikler and research by our good pal
Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced by
the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klan. The
show is executive produced for iHeart by Katrina Norvel and
Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha Gate trustee
(27:08):
Dara Potts and Viney Shore. For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
Part-Time Genius News
Hosts And Creators
Will Pearson
Mangesh Hattikudur
Popular Podcasts
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!