October 23, 2025 • 32 mins
Today Will and Mango explore the science of curiosity at different ages: how school can help (or hurt) kids’ curiosity, why middle age may make you less curious, and what we know about babies’ curiosity, even though they can’t fill out questionnaires. Plus: A conversation with a researcher who made a surprising discovery about elderly people, and expert tips for practicing curiosity, whether you’re 1 or 100.
Join our slow(er) curiosity exercise! Think of something you’re curious about—big or small—then don’t Google it. Instead, go for a walk or sit someplace quiet. Use a pen and paper to jot down any ideas that come to mind. Then head over to our Instagram (@parttimegenius) or Bluesky (parttimegenius.bsky.social) and tell us how it went. We’ll pick one comment at random to win a prize! For a bonus entry, take a photo or video of your walk/quiet place, upload it and tag us. Deadline is 11:59pm ET, Sunday Oct. 26.
- Learn more about Jamie Jirout’s work at the UVA REAL lab.
- Learn more about Mary Whatley’s work at the Motivated Memory & Successful Aging Lab.
- Learn more about Celeste Kidd’s work at the Kidd Lab.
Got a question you’d like us to answer? A rabbit hole you think we should explore? Email higeniuses@gmail.com or leave us a message at (302) 405-5925.
Learn more about your ad choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Guess what, Mengo, What's that will So.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Earlier this week, we talked about how curiosity is strongest
when we encounter things that hit a certain intellectual sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I guess you'd say, so.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Neither too familiar nor too confusing. And it turns out
the same thing is true for babies. So this comes
from a twenty twelve study that tested baby's reaction to
a variety of colorful animations. Now, researchers discovered that the
babies were most likely to look away from images that
were either very simple or very complex. So in between
(00:53):
images held their attention, which babies can be interpreted as
a measure of what they're curious about.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
You know, I would have thought that they would have
been most interested in the simplest animations, which you know,
I don't mean to offend babies.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, I know you're out to offend babies, But from
an evolutionary standpoint, this actually makes perfect sense. So babies
need to be selective with their curiosity. They don't want
to waste their precious cognitive resources on stuff they already
know or the things that underdeveloped brains can't possibly grasp.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So this way they can maximize their understanding the world
around them, which allows them to develop the behaviors that
they need to survive and thrive. Hopefully, and beyond their
response to animated images in the lab, there's this whole
body of research showing that even very young infants take
a systematic approach to exploring their environment.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So if you think about it.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
That's pretty much what happens when they put new toys
in their mouth. So by doing that, they're answering multiple
questions is this edible? Will this hurt me? Am I
capable of manipulating this? And so getting these answers accomplishes
two things cognitively speaking, It reduces uncertainty and it closes
these knowledge gaps.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
That is so fascinating because I just assume they weren't
that bright and they're just putting things in their mouth.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
There you go again, fashion babies. I didn't realize they're
gonna be doing this today.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
All of this sounds a lot like what we've been
talking about this week, though, right, Like it's all about curiosity.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
That's right, But you know, how is curiosity different in
babies and children and adults, and you know when to
ask questions like how can school encourage or unfortunately sometimes
discourage curiosity? And is it possible to stay curious even
in your old age. Today we're taking a long view
of curiosity across our lifespan. So let's dive in. Hey,
(02:53):
their podcast listener is welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson, and as always I'm here with my good
friend Mangesh hot Ticketter there in the booth working his
way through an entire set of the World Book Encyclopedia.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I didn't know this was still in print.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Remember our old friend Aj Jacobs read the entire encyclopedia.
But that's our pal and producer Dylan Fagan, and he
is really whizzing through it. It looks like he's up to
the letter l Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I mean what's crazy is that Encyclopedia's were like the
classic symbol of childhood curiosity. Right, You're supposed to go
find one and dig in. But I really don't know,
like do people even know what encyclopedia is?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
And we probably should stop here just to clarify, Like
for those of you too young to know the World
Book Encyclopedia was I don't know, sort of like Wikipedia,
but a lot heavier.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, yeah, and you're editing it was less acceptable? Yes, yeah,
I have to do it with a pen anyway. As always,
we've got Dylan setting the perfect tone for today's episode,
and it is day four of our week long series
about curiosity, and today we're going to be talking about
how curiosity develops in children, what happens to our curiosity
(03:58):
as we age. We've also got another listener activity for you,
which means another chance to win a part time Genius
Prize pack, and we are going to get that in
just a little bit. But first, will how do you
sort of rate or rank your curiosity as a kid.
Were you a curious child?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I gotta be honest, I actually think that my curiosity
developed and grew more as like a middle schooler, as
I started getting into things like history and just the
sort of general knowledge stuff that we've loved learning. I
think as a as a younger kid, maybe it's not
fair to say I wasn't curious. It was just stuff
that was more like learning all the facts on baseball cards,
(04:34):
or like all the sports stuff that I might have
been into at that age, how about you.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, when I was a toddler, we had a really
sturdy dog and and I would stand on top of
him and put stuff into the microwave. I would stand
and unlock the front door and run out into the
front yard and like it was a terror. I'd also
at my uncle's house in India. He lived in an
(04:58):
apartment in Bombay, and I I would run to the kitchen,
get a fork, run to the balcony and drop it. Yeah,
like doing a gravity experiment. Okay, okay, until someone yelled
up its raining forks and then my mom copy.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I'm glad you're still alive and also not in prison
for anything you might have done for ingrats.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So one challenge we have in understanding baby's curiosity is
that babies cannot fill out questionnaires or participate in trivia games.
And if you remember some of the studies on adult
curiosity that we've discussed this week, these are actually two
key approaches that researchers use to find out how curious
people are and also what they're curious about. And so
(05:40):
with babies it is a little fuzzier. You have to
rely on questionnaires filled out by caregivers, or you can
use eye trackers to measure where they're looking, and curiosity
researchers are open about the fact that these are imperfect measures, right,
they don't necessarily capture exactly what's going on in a
baby's mind, and a baby, of course, has no way
to tell. So that's a little bit of a disclaimer here.
(06:02):
But experts believe curiosity is something that we are all
born with. It's kind of built into the human experience.
And at the same time, we know from adult studies
that some people are more curious than others. According to
a twenty twenty one Johns Hopkins study, months old babies
who showed the most interest in a magic trick became
more curious as toddlers compared to babies who didn't seem
(06:24):
that curious about the trick.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I mean, that's fascinating, but you know what, my first
question is going to be, what was the magic trick?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
There were two? Actually, there was one where a toy
appeared to pass through a solid wall and another where
the toy looked like it was floating in the air.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Okay, I can say I would be interested in these
if you showed me these tricks, Can I see them?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You have a lot in common with a curious baby.
But what's so cool about the study is that it
tells us two things. First of all, there's a difference
in curiosity levels and babies even before they're a year old.
And two, that different stayed consistent as they grew into toddlers,
starting to walk and talk, all those big developments, little
changes that happened, they continue to stay curious through them.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
So does this mean that some people are just naturally
more curious than others.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I mean that might be the case. Remember, though, there
are several different flavors of curiosity. We talked about this
on Monday, But there's trait curiosity, which is when you're
just generally curious about the world around you, and then
there's state curiosity, which is when your curiosity gets activated
by specific things that happen to interest you. It is
entirely possible that as these babies get older, some of
(07:27):
them will discover something that sparks their curiosity in a
way that you know, those magic tricks didn't quite pull off.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, well, I certainly hope that's the case, because, according
to another study that looked at over six thousand kids
entering kindergarten, highly curious children tend to do better in school,
and that's I guess not a huge shock there. But
researchers ask parents and guardians to fill out questionnaires to
determine how curious each child was, and then after the
kids started school, they looked at how well they did
on math and various reading assignments and the results were
(07:56):
actually pretty amazing. They found that higher curiosity scores were
directly related to better test scores across the board, but
the impact was greatest in kids from low income homes.
That's a big deal because we know that kids with
lower socioeconomic status tend to have less access to resources
that enrich their learning, and that in turn can affect
their academic performance.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, that is fascinating. So it sounds like encouraging curiosity
in young kids can actually help offset some inequalities in education.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, I mean, let's do talk about that phrase encouraging curiosity,
because what do we really mean when we say that
or what does it look like in real life? And
so to answer those questions, we have to think about
the place where most kids spend most of their time,
and that is school. So I actually want to read
you something from an autobiographical sketch that Albert Einstein wrote
back in nineteen forty nine. He says, it is in
(08:46):
fact nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods
of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry,
for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in
need of freedom. Without this, it goes to and ruin
without fail.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I guess I'm not that surprised, right, Like, Einstein wasn't
the biggest fan of school.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, yeah, I mean he did okay academically, but he
struggled with the strict rules and structure, and what he
really wanted to do was learn math at a higher
level than he was being taught. So he got some
books and he taught himself. And obviously every school is different,
and schools have evolved a lot since Einstein was a kid,
but the point is still pretty valid. Kids need some
degree of intellectual freedom in order to exercise their curiosity.
(09:29):
So Doctor Jamie Jeru is an associate professor at the
University of Virginia, where she directs the Research and Education
and Learning Lab. Now she spent years studying children's curiosity
and its connection to learning and She says that an
over emphasis on academic performance can actually make kids disconnect
from their natural curiosity.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Most educational systems that exist today are just so performance focused,
and we put so much emphasis on accuracy and excelling
as as quickly as possible. So when you go to school,
if your job is to learn specific facts or specific skills,
you're going to focus on those, and being curious can
actually be a risk to your academic performance. And I
(10:11):
see this even in my college students, where if they
become really curious about something, they might go off on
a tangent and actually not do what they're supposed to
do for the class assignments.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Now, luckily, doctor Jeru is an expert in this kind
of thing, so she's figured out a really cool solution.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I've tried to structure my classes and being so open
ended and having lots of different options so that I
can allow that curiosity. And also I do have to
have my learning objectives that I'm trying to meet, so
I've added curiosity as my first learning objectives so that
I can justify when students can go off in different directions.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That is such a wonderful way of thinking about school,
Like you can make curiosity a priority along with all
the other goals of the class.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right, yeah, right, Doctor Jeru says.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
The other thing is de emphasizing the goal of getting
the right answer, because once you do that, your brain
is like, Okay, I'm done, you know, I don't need
to think about this anymore. That's pretty much the exact
opposite of curiosity. So instead, teachers can keep students, you know,
whether they're in kindergarten or college, focused on the process
of learning and how the information they encounter relates to
other things they.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Know, and so just little things like instead of saying
something like, okay, now, everybody work on the first five problems,
you could say, see if you can find all the
answers and let me know when you're done. Or you
can say, see if you can figure out how to
solve them, and when you finish, or if you finish
before everyone else is done, see if you can find
a different way to solve them, and so really focusing
(11:34):
on the process. And also this idea that once you
know something, that's not the end.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I love that, the idea that acquiring knowledge is more
of a beginning than an end, right, And when I
remember things I've been really curious about or times when
I've gotten really engrossed in an idea. That's exactly what
it feels like like. Learning one thing just makes you
want to learn more, which is a very different idea
than some of the stuff I had to study in
school just to pass the test.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, as you know, sometimes
you have to knuckle down and memorize a list of
state capitals. But educators are bringing some of those concepts
into the classroom, whether it's exploratory learning models that encourage
students to think through problems on their own, or even
just changing the way they ask questions. So doctor Jeru
says that giving multiple kids an opportunity to share their
(12:22):
answer or idea and how they came up with it
is actually more engaging than calling on the first person
who raises their hand. And among other things, this helps
kids realize that sometimes there are different ways at arriving
at the same answer, and that's basically catinep for curiosity.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Well, now that we know a bit about curiosity in childhood,
it is time to look ahead. And if you start
reading about what happens to curiosity and adults, you'll find
a lot of people saying that as we get older,
we get less curious. But our question is is this
really true? And since we're starting to get up there
in age, this is a very important question for us.
So we're going to figure out the answer right after
(12:59):
this quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. It
is day four of our week long exploration of curiosity,
(13:21):
and trust me when I say you will not want
to miss the last episode of the series tomorrow. It
is a conversation with two of our very, very favorite podcasters.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
I mean, they are definitely podcasters. You should know. That's
a little hint there. It's going to be fun. Okay,
man go speaking of curiosity changing over the years, as
you mentioned before the break, there is sort of a
conventional wisdom that curiosity decreases with age. Of course, conventional
wisdom isn't always black and white. So we asked our
good friend Mitra Banshahi to take her microphone to the
(13:50):
streets of Brooklyn and ask people of all ages about
their experience.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Here's what they had to say. Yeah, you get less
curious as you get older. You like what you like,
you do your.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Routine, and I look at my grandfather, he's just like
he doesn't even want to meet new people. At this point,
there just aren't enough hours in the day to learn
all the things that I want to learn how to do.
So I do think I am very curious still, but
I've there's kind of like a comfort in like having
figured a lot out.
Speaker 6 (14:20):
I think if any had become more curious because I
guess I've seen more people I've met than I'm so
curious about all these things that have come into my life.
Speaker 7 (14:31):
When I talk to people that are older than me,
it feels like they're more engaged sometimes, whereas I think
people my age maybe like don't have the attention span
or just don't care enough to ask me about myself,
Whereas older people I feel like they want to know more.
I don't know if it's the same as like being curious,
but it feels like just interested in hearing stories more.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
As I getting older, I'm not as curious. I'm more tired.
Speaker 7 (14:58):
I don't have the energy.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I mean, I definitely hear the tired part because I'm
probably more tired. But also, you know, my grandfather decided
that he wanted to learn a language in when he
was like seventy nine. Yeah, and the idea of like
embarking on a language and learning it honestly because he
wanted to write in that language.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yeah, he had this.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Idea for a story and he thought it could only
be delivered best in this language called Kandada, and so
he started getting a tutor for for the language.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
And it's crazy. I do worry a little bit about
the tired part.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Is like when we when we get to the next
stage in life or maybe work is a little less busy,
Like it sounds so nice to think about learning another
language or picking up a new instrument or whatever it
may be.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And then I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Also just a little bit nervous that we're gonna be like,
but I'm tired.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So let's make a pack. Let's make a pact that
we're gonna what are we gonna do? We're gonna learn
a language of scrubs rerun.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
So many scrubs reruns? Wait, is that is that curiosity?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah? Okay, cool deal.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So so anyway, this idea that older people aren't as
curious as young people isn't just an opinion. I mean
you actually find it in scientific literature. It's backed up
by research and surveys. But the great thing about science,
and perhaps the thing I love most about science is
that it is constantly evolving, and this is definitely the
case with people being curious. So people like doctor Mary Wattley,
(16:22):
she is an assistant professor at Western Carolina University, is
studying memory and aging at a lab she leads there,
and last year she was at UCLA finishing up her
doctorate and as she told our super producer Mary, part
of the work involved bringing older adults into a lab
to do memory tests, and that is when she noticed
something interesting.
Speaker 8 (16:42):
So when they would come in, they were often really
curious individuals and they were asking questions like what are
you testing? Can I learn the results of these things?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Doctor Wattley and her colleagues realized that this contradicted everything
they had read about older people's curiosity, and that's because
a lot of earlier research didn't differentiate between state and
trait curiosity. So they decided to test both types of
curiosity head to head. This involved a survey to measure
trait curiosity in a trivia game to measure state curiosity,
(17:14):
and the way it worked was they'd read a challenging
trivia question and ask people to take their best guests
and then they'd ask how interested they were in finding
out the answer.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I'm just kind of picturing doing this at like a
bar trivia night where they ask, you know, who had
been a the windshield wiper, and also who cares?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I mean, I care?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yeah, and I do because it was actually a self
taught inventor named Mary Anderson from my home state of Alabama.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I'm glad you sent me up with that.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It is also good to know that doctor Wattley's studies
results paint a much more nuanced picture of curiosity as
we age. She did find that tray curiosity declined over time,
but state curiosity was totally different. Younger adults and middle
aged people showed low levels of state curiosity, but after
middle age, curiosity spikes and it keeps increasing well into
(18:04):
old age. And the reason for this is probably similar
to what you were saying about babies at the top
of the show. In other words, young adults, like babies,
need to be selective with their curiosity. When you're trying
to land your first job, or find a partner, or
just generally trying to figure out what adulting is. Treat
curiosity is an asset, so that's where you want to
devote your energy when you're much older, Like if you
(18:27):
retire and your kids leave home, you suddenly have more
time and space to indulge your interest in well, basically
anything that interests you.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, and that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
But I guess one question I have is does curiosity
have any specific benefits when you're older as opposed to
the obvious benefits when you're really young. And we know
there's that positive link between curiosity and academics, but once
you're out of school, that doesn't seem to matter, right, Yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
According to doctor Watley, curiosity can actually play a very
big role in healthy aging.
Speaker 8 (18:57):
There was a study that showed even like survive was
greater in people who had higher levels of curiosity over
a five year period. We don't know necessarily if it's
the curiosity itself or if it's what the curiosity makes
you do, which is maybe like engaging in other cognitive
tasks that keep you sharp. But there is some research
(19:19):
that curiosity is related to lower rates of dementia survival.
So these are like really important things as we get older.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Would it be safe to say that listening to part
time genius could help you with your curiosity as you
get older.
Speaker 8 (19:33):
I mean, I think that simply engaging with new information,
learning new things, curiosity is sort of like a feedback loop.
It's sort of like a cycle. So if you know
a little bit about something, you might be curious to
know the things that you don't know. And so then
when you learn those things, it feels like, ah, yes,
(19:55):
now I've learned these things. That feels good, right, It's
a little bit rewarding, and then you I want to
know more. So I think the more you're exposing yourself
to new information, the more opportunities you have to experience curiosity.
So yes, I think if you're listening to podcasts and
especially part Time Genius, and you are learning all these
(20:18):
new findings, this might spark curiosity to learn about other things.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
And there you have it. We are not saying that
listening to the show could help you live longer, but
we're not not saying that.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
We are definitely not saying that this podcast is not
intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I
just want to put that out there as the disclaimer.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I'm glad you did that. The point is, in the
same way we think about staying active physically as we
get older, it's really important to think about staying curious mentally.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Yeah, it's good advice, but you know, I want to
go back to something that you said just a moment ago,
that state curiosity didn't start that big increase until after
middle age. And if trait curiosity is declining over time,
that would mean that middle ages at the autumn of
the barrel curiosity wise, right, that.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Does seem to be the case for a lot of people.
We talked about this a little bit on Tuesday in
the context of income. So people with very low incomes
tend to score lower on curiosity scales, and that's likely
because it's hard to have room for curiosity when you're
in a survival mode. This obviously is a distinct problem
from just being in your forties and fifties, but that
(21:24):
does tend to be in age when you're stretched really thin.
I mean, I obviously don't need to tell you this, right,
Like you and I were both raising kids, we're caring
for family members, we're working, you're active in your community
and also looking for your keys, and you're trying to
figure out what six seven means. All sorts of question.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
And stop and no matter how many times I ask,
I never get a helpful answer on that. But you know,
it's like Einstein was saying, curiosity requires freedom, and the
more responsibilities you have, the less freedom you have.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Right, So it may be inevitable that curiosity waxes and
wanes over the course of our lives. It may also
be times when we just don't have bandwidth for random
rabbit holes and the ability to pursue answers to questions
that you know aren't directly related to work or day
to day stuff. But that doesn't mean you should give
up on it, right, And anything we can do to
activate our curious side, to remind ourselves that we're designed
(22:17):
to be curious, will help us now and also in
the future. Yeah, as for our future, we're going to
talk about how technology can affect our curiosity, both in
positive and negative ways. But first we've got to take
a little break.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Don't go anywhere, Welcome back to Part time Genius. So
there's one big topic that's kind of been hanging over
this whole episode as we talk about curiosity over our.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Lifespans, and that's technology, which.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
You could argue has as much of an impact on
kids as the schools do.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I mean for anyone who's raising kids, this is a
constant question, right, like what is all this screen time
doing to their brains? How much screen time is okay?
You know, when you and I were growing up, if
we had questions, we had to go look them up
in the encyclopedia. We did have the internet, but it
was so much slower, right, And so our kids have
all the world's knowledge right there in their pockets. And
(23:21):
it's a hard question. Is it good is it bad?
I really don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I mean, I guess the answer is it depends on
how you're using it, not surprisingly, and you know it
depends on what kind of technology you're talking about too.
So technology allows us to make this show, allows us
to share with people, and I don't know what we
do without online access to all the scientific journals and
newspapers and research databases that we use completly. So if
kids are going online to learn more about the things
(23:45):
they're interested in, maybe things they wouldn't be able to
learn about otherwise, that's a pretty great thing in my opinion.
It's also worth noting that technology, including social media, can
make it easier to learn from a more diverse group
of people and to get firsthand information that really inspires curiosity,
Like instead of just reading a book about Kenyan culture
from the perspective of an English academic, you can watch
(24:07):
videos made by people in Kenya talking about their own experiences.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I hadn't actually thought about that, and I guess it's
more like the endless scrolling on things like TikTok that
isn't doing that much for us.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, that's definitely not so good.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
And doctor Dru says the problem is that type of
content is designed to suck us in and keep our
brains stuck in that lower gear, which isn't conducive to curiosity.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
It's a very low level cognitive demand in a lot
of cases, So watching really short videos that are entertaining
but don't really provide much information, that's using just enough
of your cognitive resources that yet you don't have that
kind of openness to being able to just think and
wonder and observe. And the observation is really where that
thinking comes from. Right, If you're not paying attention to
(24:53):
what's going on, then it's going to be hard for
you to notice something that you don't understand or that
you want to figure out.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I know exactly what this feels
like when your mind is occupied but not engaged enough
to kick into action.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, now what happens if your mind isn't occupied at all?
So Doctor Celeste Kidd, who we last heard from on
Monday's episode, had a lot to say about the dangers
of using AI as a substitute for actual thinking.
Speaker 9 (25:19):
They're being some difficulty in resolving something we're curious about
is actually a good thing that can lead to unexpected
new questions. We don't necessarily want technology that gives us
just a piece of information we want right away. We
really don't want technology that does that, but unreliably, I
(25:40):
don't have a lot of optimism that things like check
GPT are good for all kids for encouraging curiosity. I'm
worried about the impact that they will have on diminishing
children's curiosity by depleting it rapidly and sometimes in the
absence of the information that they were seeking.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yikes.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I mean, that is a chilling thought that these things
depleting kid's curiosity.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And the Doctor Kids said that the reason AI tools
are especially harmful for curiosity is that they're really good
at generating responses that seem authoritative, like even if you're
totally wrong. And so if you think of curiosity as
an itch, AI can actually scratch it for you very quickly,
and then what happens, You know, the itch is gone
and on like a real conversation or even flipping through
(26:24):
the encyclopedia, there's less of an opportunity to go off
on a tangent or you know, to notice something else
you want to learn about, or even think critically about the.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Response that you just got, which you know it's important
to do, especially with AI, because it often gets things
wrong or it's reflecting certain biases without necessarily disclosing all
of that.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, I mean, it all goes back to this idea
that curiosity is about the process, not just getting the
right answer. So when producer Mary spoke to doctor Watley,
she asked her, Okay, in a world of instant answers,
how can we keep our desire for information from killing
our curiosity.
Speaker 8 (26:59):
When you have a question or you have something you
want to know, just hold on to that for a minute,
think about it, try to come up with some answers,
and then go and look it up. There's some research
showing that actually generating and answer yourself can increase feelings
(27:19):
of curiosity rather than simply just being asked a question
and not ask to generate an answer.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
So with that in mind, here's today's listener activity. I
know everybody's waiting on listener activity. So think of something
you're curious about, and then do not google it. Instead,
go for a walk or sit someplace quiet and let
your mind wonder. Bring a pen and a paper and
just jot down some ideas or a hypothesis that you
think of, no matter how ridiculous they might seem. Give
(27:47):
yourself an hour if you can, and then go back
and google it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So then leave a.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Comment on our Instagram or Blue Sky telling us what
you were curious about and how this experiment went for you.
The deadline is Sunday, October twenty sixth. Pick one common
at random to win an official part Time Genius Prize pack.
All the details and links are in the show notes
and on our social media accounts.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
You know, I'm actually excited to try this.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
You are not eligible to win.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Still I'm going to do it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
That's the spirit, all right, Mango.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
We've covered a lot of ground today, So why don't
we head down to the rec center where we have
some recommendations for people who want to stay curious at
any age.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
So, if you're a parent, cognitive scientist Elizabeth Bonowitz recommends
shifting your mindset from how can I make my kid
more curious? To how can I create more opportunities for
my kid to be curious. So, in addition to generating
predictions and identifying knowledge gaps, which we talked about earlier
in the episode, of Course, Bonowitz says it's important for
kids to recognize and be comfortable with ambiguity. Studies show
(29:00):
that kids as young as four are able to identify
conflicting pieces of evidence, and noticing that conflict activates curiosity
because they want to make sense of the difference.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That's interesting. Watching TV is not usually a great opportunity
for kids to be curious. In fact, it often takes
the place of what scientists call exploratory activities like playing,
and a study of over five thousand children did find
that higher TV time led to lower curiosity scores in kindergarteners. However,
the study also found that curiosity scores were higher when
(29:31):
parents and guardians watched TV with their kids and also
had conversations while doing so. Obviously, sometimes kids are just
going to veg out in front of the TV. It happens,
but if you can join them once in a while
and talk about what you're watching, which can lead to
interesting curiosity promoting conversations.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
And as for adults, in addition to making time in
our busy lives for curiosity, we should be sure to
eat plenty of produce and fish. So twenty twenty one
study of adults in Japan found the higher consumption of fish,
vet getables, and fruits was linked to higher curiosity scores. Now,
this is somewhat limited because the average Japanese diet is
higher and fish and vegetables than the average Western diet
(30:09):
to begin with, so it's not clear on how global
this finding is. But the researchers point out that antioxidant
rich foods can promote the production of neurotransmitters like dopamine,
which we know play a role in curiosity.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And finally, for all of us, be mindful of how
you're using technology. As tempting as it is, try not
to spend hours scrolling mindlessly. It keeps your brain busy,
but not active enough to really experience curiosity, and don't
get so caught up in getting quick answers that you
lose sight of the questions you're asking and the questions
those questions might lead to. In fact, you could even
(30:44):
take some inspiration from Dylan and break out the old
World book Encyclopedia.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
It's right.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Probably have to go into your attic or something like
that to find it, or go to the local library,
I'm guessing exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And while you're at the library, maybe you'll discover another
book that looks interesting. And you know how this works. Well,
that is a perfect note to end on. Don't forget
to tune in tomorrow and be sure to follow us
on Instagram and Blue Sky at Part Time Genius we
can keep up with our listener activities and giveaways this week.
Thanks to Metra Bunshahi for collecting field tape, and to
(31:15):
Jamie Cheru, Mary Wattley, and Celeste Kid for speaking with
us for this episode. We'll be back tomorrow and in
the meantime from Will Dylan, Mary Gabe and myself, thank
you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a
(31:41):
production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by
Will Pearson and me Mangashtikler, and research by our good
pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced
by the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang.
The show is executive produced for US iHeart by Katrina
Norvel and Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha
(32:04):
Gay trustee Dara Potts and Viney Shroy. For more podcasts
from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Guess what, Mengo, What's that will So.
Speaker 3 (00:25):
Earlier this week, we talked about how curiosity is strongest
when we encounter things that hit a certain intellectual sweet spot.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
I guess you'd say, so.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Neither too familiar nor too confusing. And it turns out
the same thing is true for babies. So this comes
from a twenty twelve study that tested baby's reaction to
a variety of colorful animations. Now, researchers discovered that the
babies were most likely to look away from images that
were either very simple or very complex. So in between
(00:53):
images held their attention, which babies can be interpreted as
a measure of what they're curious about.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
You know, I would have thought that they would have
been most interested in the simplest animations, which you know,
I don't mean to offend babies.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Yeah, I know you're out to offend babies, But from
an evolutionary standpoint, this actually makes perfect sense. So babies
need to be selective with their curiosity. They don't want
to waste their precious cognitive resources on stuff they already
know or the things that underdeveloped brains can't possibly grasp.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
That's overwhelming.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
So this way they can maximize their understanding the world
around them, which allows them to develop the behaviors that
they need to survive and thrive. Hopefully, and beyond their
response to animated images in the lab, there's this whole
body of research showing that even very young infants take
a systematic approach to exploring their environment.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So if you think about it.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
That's pretty much what happens when they put new toys
in their mouth. So by doing that, they're answering multiple
questions is this edible? Will this hurt me? Am I
capable of manipulating this? And so getting these answers accomplishes
two things cognitively speaking, It reduces uncertainty and it closes
these knowledge gaps.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
That is so fascinating because I just assume they weren't
that bright and they're just putting things in their mouth.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
There you go again, fashion babies. I didn't realize they're
gonna be doing this today.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
All of this sounds a lot like what we've been
talking about this week, though, right, Like it's all about curiosity.
Speaker 3 (02:13):
That's right, But you know, how is curiosity different in
babies and children and adults, and you know when to
ask questions like how can school encourage or unfortunately sometimes
discourage curiosity? And is it possible to stay curious even
in your old age. Today we're taking a long view
of curiosity across our lifespan. So let's dive in. Hey,
(02:53):
their podcast listener is welcome to Part Time Genius. I'm
Will Pearson, and as always I'm here with my good
friend Mangesh hot Ticketter there in the booth working his
way through an entire set of the World Book Encyclopedia.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I didn't know this was still in print.
Speaker 3 (03:07):
Remember our old friend Aj Jacobs read the entire encyclopedia.
But that's our pal and producer Dylan Fagan, and he
is really whizzing through it. It looks like he's up to
the letter l Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
I mean what's crazy is that Encyclopedia's were like the
classic symbol of childhood curiosity. Right, You're supposed to go
find one and dig in. But I really don't know,
like do people even know what encyclopedia is?
Speaker 3 (03:28):
And we probably should stop here just to clarify, Like
for those of you too young to know the World
Book Encyclopedia was I don't know, sort of like Wikipedia,
but a lot heavier.
Speaker 1 (03:38):
Yeah, yeah, and you're editing it was less acceptable? Yes, yeah,
I have to do it with a pen anyway. As always,
we've got Dylan setting the perfect tone for today's episode,
and it is day four of our week long series
about curiosity, and today we're going to be talking about
how curiosity develops in children, what happens to our curiosity
(03:58):
as we age. We've also got another listener activity for you,
which means another chance to win a part time Genius
Prize pack, and we are going to get that in
just a little bit. But first, will how do you
sort of rate or rank your curiosity as a kid.
Were you a curious child?
Speaker 3 (04:14):
I gotta be honest, I actually think that my curiosity
developed and grew more as like a middle schooler, as
I started getting into things like history and just the
sort of general knowledge stuff that we've loved learning. I
think as a as a younger kid, maybe it's not
fair to say I wasn't curious. It was just stuff
that was more like learning all the facts on baseball cards,
(04:34):
or like all the sports stuff that I might have
been into at that age, how about you.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
Yeah, when I was a toddler, we had a really
sturdy dog and and I would stand on top of
him and put stuff into the microwave. I would stand
and unlock the front door and run out into the
front yard and like it was a terror. I'd also
at my uncle's house in India. He lived in an
(04:58):
apartment in Bombay, and I I would run to the kitchen,
get a fork, run to the balcony and drop it. Yeah,
like doing a gravity experiment. Okay, okay, until someone yelled
up its raining forks and then my mom copy.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I'm glad you're still alive and also not in prison
for anything you might have done for ingrats.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
So one challenge we have in understanding baby's curiosity is
that babies cannot fill out questionnaires or participate in trivia games.
And if you remember some of the studies on adult
curiosity that we've discussed this week, these are actually two
key approaches that researchers use to find out how curious
people are and also what they're curious about. And so
(05:40):
with babies it is a little fuzzier. You have to
rely on questionnaires filled out by caregivers, or you can
use eye trackers to measure where they're looking, and curiosity
researchers are open about the fact that these are imperfect measures, right,
they don't necessarily capture exactly what's going on in a
baby's mind, and a baby, of course, has no way
to tell. So that's a little bit of a disclaimer here.
(06:02):
But experts believe curiosity is something that we are all
born with. It's kind of built into the human experience.
And at the same time, we know from adult studies
that some people are more curious than others. According to
a twenty twenty one Johns Hopkins study, months old babies
who showed the most interest in a magic trick became
more curious as toddlers compared to babies who didn't seem
(06:24):
that curious about the trick.
Speaker 3 (06:25):
I mean, that's fascinating, but you know what, my first
question is going to be, what was the magic trick?
Speaker 1 (06:29):
There were two? Actually, there was one where a toy
appeared to pass through a solid wall and another where
the toy looked like it was floating in the air.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
Okay, I can say I would be interested in these
if you showed me these tricks, Can I see them?
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You have a lot in common with a curious baby.
But what's so cool about the study is that it
tells us two things. First of all, there's a difference
in curiosity levels and babies even before they're a year old.
And two, that different stayed consistent as they grew into toddlers,
starting to walk and talk, all those big developments, little
changes that happened, they continue to stay curious through them.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
So does this mean that some people are just naturally
more curious than others.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
I mean that might be the case. Remember, though, there
are several different flavors of curiosity. We talked about this
on Monday, But there's trait curiosity, which is when you're
just generally curious about the world around you, and then
there's state curiosity, which is when your curiosity gets activated
by specific things that happen to interest you. It is
entirely possible that as these babies get older, some of
(07:27):
them will discover something that sparks their curiosity in a
way that you know, those magic tricks didn't quite pull off.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Yeah, well, I certainly hope that's the case, because, according
to another study that looked at over six thousand kids
entering kindergarten, highly curious children tend to do better in school,
and that's I guess not a huge shock there. But
researchers ask parents and guardians to fill out questionnaires to
determine how curious each child was, and then after the
kids started school, they looked at how well they did
on math and various reading assignments and the results were
(07:56):
actually pretty amazing. They found that higher curiosity scores were
directly related to better test scores across the board, but
the impact was greatest in kids from low income homes.
That's a big deal because we know that kids with
lower socioeconomic status tend to have less access to resources
that enrich their learning, and that in turn can affect
their academic performance.
Speaker 1 (08:16):
Yeah, that is fascinating. So it sounds like encouraging curiosity
in young kids can actually help offset some inequalities in education.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Yeah, I mean, let's do talk about that phrase encouraging curiosity,
because what do we really mean when we say that
or what does it look like in real life? And
so to answer those questions, we have to think about
the place where most kids spend most of their time,
and that is school. So I actually want to read
you something from an autobiographical sketch that Albert Einstein wrote
back in nineteen forty nine. He says, it is in
(08:46):
fact nothing short of a miracle that the modern methods
of instruction have not entirely strangled the holy curiosity of inquiry,
for this delicate plant, aside from stimulation, stands mainly in
need of freedom. Without this, it goes to and ruin
without fail.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
I guess I'm not that surprised, right, Like, Einstein wasn't
the biggest fan of school.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
Yeah, yeah, I mean he did okay academically, but he
struggled with the strict rules and structure, and what he
really wanted to do was learn math at a higher
level than he was being taught. So he got some
books and he taught himself. And obviously every school is different,
and schools have evolved a lot since Einstein was a kid,
but the point is still pretty valid. Kids need some
degree of intellectual freedom in order to exercise their curiosity.
(09:29):
So Doctor Jamie Jeru is an associate professor at the
University of Virginia, where she directs the Research and Education
and Learning Lab. Now she spent years studying children's curiosity
and its connection to learning and She says that an
over emphasis on academic performance can actually make kids disconnect
from their natural curiosity.
Speaker 4 (09:48):
Most educational systems that exist today are just so performance focused,
and we put so much emphasis on accuracy and excelling
as as quickly as possible. So when you go to school,
if your job is to learn specific facts or specific skills,
you're going to focus on those, and being curious can
actually be a risk to your academic performance. And I
(10:11):
see this even in my college students, where if they
become really curious about something, they might go off on
a tangent and actually not do what they're supposed to
do for the class assignments.
Speaker 3 (10:19):
Now, luckily, doctor Jeru is an expert in this kind
of thing, so she's figured out a really cool solution.
Speaker 4 (10:25):
I've tried to structure my classes and being so open
ended and having lots of different options so that I
can allow that curiosity. And also I do have to
have my learning objectives that I'm trying to meet, so
I've added curiosity as my first learning objectives so that
I can justify when students can go off in different directions.
Speaker 1 (10:42):
That is such a wonderful way of thinking about school,
Like you can make curiosity a priority along with all
the other goals of the class.
Speaker 2 (10:49):
Right, yeah, right, Doctor Jeru says.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
The other thing is de emphasizing the goal of getting
the right answer, because once you do that, your brain
is like, Okay, I'm done, you know, I don't need
to think about this anymore. That's pretty much the exact
opposite of curiosity. So instead, teachers can keep students, you know,
whether they're in kindergarten or college, focused on the process
of learning and how the information they encounter relates to
other things they.
Speaker 4 (11:12):
Know, and so just little things like instead of saying
something like, okay, now, everybody work on the first five problems,
you could say, see if you can find all the
answers and let me know when you're done. Or you
can say, see if you can figure out how to
solve them, and when you finish, or if you finish
before everyone else is done, see if you can find
a different way to solve them, and so really focusing
(11:34):
on the process. And also this idea that once you
know something, that's not the end.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
I love that, the idea that acquiring knowledge is more
of a beginning than an end, right, And when I
remember things I've been really curious about or times when
I've gotten really engrossed in an idea. That's exactly what
it feels like like. Learning one thing just makes you
want to learn more, which is a very different idea
than some of the stuff I had to study in
school just to pass the test.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, and you know, as you know, sometimes
you have to knuckle down and memorize a list of
state capitals. But educators are bringing some of those concepts
into the classroom, whether it's exploratory learning models that encourage
students to think through problems on their own, or even
just changing the way they ask questions. So doctor Jeru
says that giving multiple kids an opportunity to share their
(12:22):
answer or idea and how they came up with it
is actually more engaging than calling on the first person
who raises their hand. And among other things, this helps
kids realize that sometimes there are different ways at arriving
at the same answer, and that's basically catinep for curiosity.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Well, now that we know a bit about curiosity in childhood,
it is time to look ahead. And if you start
reading about what happens to curiosity and adults, you'll find
a lot of people saying that as we get older,
we get less curious. But our question is is this
really true? And since we're starting to get up there
in age, this is a very important question for us.
So we're going to figure out the answer right after
(12:59):
this quick break. Welcome back to Part Time Genius. It
is day four of our week long exploration of curiosity,
(13:21):
and trust me when I say you will not want
to miss the last episode of the series tomorrow. It
is a conversation with two of our very, very favorite podcasters.
Speaker 3 (13:30):
I mean, they are definitely podcasters. You should know. That's
a little hint there. It's going to be fun. Okay,
man go speaking of curiosity changing over the years, as
you mentioned before the break, there is sort of a
conventional wisdom that curiosity decreases with age. Of course, conventional
wisdom isn't always black and white. So we asked our
good friend Mitra Banshahi to take her microphone to the
(13:50):
streets of Brooklyn and ask people of all ages about
their experience.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Here's what they had to say. Yeah, you get less
curious as you get older. You like what you like,
you do your.
Speaker 5 (14:01):
Routine, and I look at my grandfather, he's just like
he doesn't even want to meet new people. At this point,
there just aren't enough hours in the day to learn
all the things that I want to learn how to do.
So I do think I am very curious still, but
I've there's kind of like a comfort in like having
figured a lot out.
Speaker 6 (14:20):
I think if any had become more curious because I
guess I've seen more people I've met than I'm so
curious about all these things that have come into my life.
Speaker 7 (14:31):
When I talk to people that are older than me,
it feels like they're more engaged sometimes, whereas I think
people my age maybe like don't have the attention span
or just don't care enough to ask me about myself,
Whereas older people I feel like they want to know more.
I don't know if it's the same as like being curious,
but it feels like just interested in hearing stories more.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
As I getting older, I'm not as curious. I'm more tired.
Speaker 7 (14:58):
I don't have the energy.
Speaker 1 (15:01):
I mean, I definitely hear the tired part because I'm
probably more tired. But also, you know, my grandfather decided
that he wanted to learn a language in when he
was like seventy nine. Yeah, and the idea of like
embarking on a language and learning it honestly because he
wanted to write in that language.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yeah, he had this.
Speaker 1 (15:21):
Idea for a story and he thought it could only
be delivered best in this language called Kandada, and so
he started getting a tutor for for the language.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
And it's crazy. I do worry a little bit about
the tired part.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
Is like when we when we get to the next
stage in life or maybe work is a little less busy,
Like it sounds so nice to think about learning another
language or picking up a new instrument or whatever it
may be.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
And then I'm.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Also just a little bit nervous that we're gonna be like,
but I'm tired.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So let's make a pack. Let's make a pact that
we're gonna what are we gonna do? We're gonna learn
a language of scrubs rerun.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
So many scrubs reruns? Wait, is that is that curiosity?
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Yeah? Okay, cool deal.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
So so anyway, this idea that older people aren't as
curious as young people isn't just an opinion. I mean
you actually find it in scientific literature. It's backed up
by research and surveys. But the great thing about science,
and perhaps the thing I love most about science is
that it is constantly evolving, and this is definitely the
case with people being curious. So people like doctor Mary Wattley,
(16:22):
she is an assistant professor at Western Carolina University, is
studying memory and aging at a lab she leads there,
and last year she was at UCLA finishing up her
doctorate and as she told our super producer Mary, part
of the work involved bringing older adults into a lab
to do memory tests, and that is when she noticed
something interesting.
Speaker 8 (16:42):
So when they would come in, they were often really
curious individuals and they were asking questions like what are
you testing? Can I learn the results of these things?
Speaker 1 (16:53):
Doctor Wattley and her colleagues realized that this contradicted everything
they had read about older people's curiosity, and that's because
a lot of earlier research didn't differentiate between state and
trait curiosity. So they decided to test both types of
curiosity head to head. This involved a survey to measure
trait curiosity in a trivia game to measure state curiosity,
(17:14):
and the way it worked was they'd read a challenging
trivia question and ask people to take their best guests
and then they'd ask how interested they were in finding
out the answer.
Speaker 3 (17:23):
I'm just kind of picturing doing this at like a
bar trivia night where they ask, you know, who had
been a the windshield wiper, and also who cares?
Speaker 2 (17:29):
I mean, I care?
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yeah, and I do because it was actually a self
taught inventor named Mary Anderson from my home state of Alabama.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
I'm glad you sent me up with that.
Speaker 6 (17:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
It is also good to know that doctor Wattley's studies
results paint a much more nuanced picture of curiosity as
we age. She did find that tray curiosity declined over time,
but state curiosity was totally different. Younger adults and middle
aged people showed low levels of state curiosity, but after
middle age, curiosity spikes and it keeps increasing well into
(18:04):
old age. And the reason for this is probably similar
to what you were saying about babies at the top
of the show. In other words, young adults, like babies,
need to be selective with their curiosity. When you're trying
to land your first job, or find a partner, or
just generally trying to figure out what adulting is. Treat
curiosity is an asset, so that's where you want to
devote your energy when you're much older, Like if you
(18:27):
retire and your kids leave home, you suddenly have more
time and space to indulge your interest in well, basically
anything that interests you.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
Yeah, and that makes sense.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
But I guess one question I have is does curiosity
have any specific benefits when you're older as opposed to
the obvious benefits when you're really young. And we know
there's that positive link between curiosity and academics, but once
you're out of school, that doesn't seem to matter, right, Yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
According to doctor Watley, curiosity can actually play a very
big role in healthy aging.
Speaker 8 (18:57):
There was a study that showed even like survive was
greater in people who had higher levels of curiosity over
a five year period. We don't know necessarily if it's
the curiosity itself or if it's what the curiosity makes
you do, which is maybe like engaging in other cognitive
tasks that keep you sharp. But there is some research
(19:19):
that curiosity is related to lower rates of dementia survival.
So these are like really important things as we get older.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
Would it be safe to say that listening to part
time genius could help you with your curiosity as you
get older.
Speaker 8 (19:33):
I mean, I think that simply engaging with new information,
learning new things, curiosity is sort of like a feedback loop.
It's sort of like a cycle. So if you know
a little bit about something, you might be curious to
know the things that you don't know. And so then
when you learn those things, it feels like, ah, yes,
(19:55):
now I've learned these things. That feels good, right, It's
a little bit rewarding, and then you I want to
know more. So I think the more you're exposing yourself
to new information, the more opportunities you have to experience curiosity.
So yes, I think if you're listening to podcasts and
especially part Time Genius, and you are learning all these
(20:18):
new findings, this might spark curiosity to learn about other things.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
And there you have it. We are not saying that
listening to the show could help you live longer, but
we're not not saying that.
Speaker 3 (20:29):
We are definitely not saying that this podcast is not
intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. I
just want to put that out there as the disclaimer.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
I'm glad you did that. The point is, in the
same way we think about staying active physically as we
get older, it's really important to think about staying curious mentally.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Yeah, it's good advice, but you know, I want to
go back to something that you said just a moment ago,
that state curiosity didn't start that big increase until after
middle age. And if trait curiosity is declining over time,
that would mean that middle ages at the autumn of
the barrel curiosity wise, right, that.
Speaker 1 (21:02):
Does seem to be the case for a lot of people.
We talked about this a little bit on Tuesday in
the context of income. So people with very low incomes
tend to score lower on curiosity scales, and that's likely
because it's hard to have room for curiosity when you're
in a survival mode. This obviously is a distinct problem
from just being in your forties and fifties, but that
(21:24):
does tend to be in age when you're stretched really thin.
I mean, I obviously don't need to tell you this, right,
Like you and I were both raising kids, we're caring
for family members, we're working, you're active in your community
and also looking for your keys, and you're trying to
figure out what six seven means. All sorts of question.
Speaker 3 (21:43):
And stop and no matter how many times I ask,
I never get a helpful answer on that. But you know,
it's like Einstein was saying, curiosity requires freedom, and the
more responsibilities you have, the less freedom you have.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Right, So it may be inevitable that curiosity waxes and
wanes over the course of our lives. It may also
be times when we just don't have bandwidth for random
rabbit holes and the ability to pursue answers to questions
that you know aren't directly related to work or day
to day stuff. But that doesn't mean you should give
up on it, right, And anything we can do to
activate our curious side, to remind ourselves that we're designed
(22:17):
to be curious, will help us now and also in
the future. Yeah, as for our future, we're going to
talk about how technology can affect our curiosity, both in
positive and negative ways. But first we've got to take
a little break.
Speaker 3 (22:30):
Don't go anywhere, Welcome back to Part time Genius. So
there's one big topic that's kind of been hanging over
this whole episode as we talk about curiosity over our.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
Lifespans, and that's technology, which.
Speaker 3 (22:55):
You could argue has as much of an impact on
kids as the schools do.
Speaker 2 (22:59):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I mean for anyone who's raising kids, this is a
constant question, right, like what is all this screen time
doing to their brains? How much screen time is okay?
You know, when you and I were growing up, if
we had questions, we had to go look them up
in the encyclopedia. We did have the internet, but it
was so much slower, right, And so our kids have
all the world's knowledge right there in their pockets. And
(23:21):
it's a hard question. Is it good is it bad?
I really don't know.
Speaker 3 (23:24):
I mean, I guess the answer is it depends on
how you're using it, not surprisingly, and you know it
depends on what kind of technology you're talking about too.
So technology allows us to make this show, allows us
to share with people, and I don't know what we
do without online access to all the scientific journals and
newspapers and research databases that we use completly. So if
kids are going online to learn more about the things
(23:45):
they're interested in, maybe things they wouldn't be able to
learn about otherwise, that's a pretty great thing in my opinion.
It's also worth noting that technology, including social media, can
make it easier to learn from a more diverse group
of people and to get firsthand information that really inspires curiosity,
Like instead of just reading a book about Kenyan culture
from the perspective of an English academic, you can watch
(24:07):
videos made by people in Kenya talking about their own experiences.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1 (24:11):
I hadn't actually thought about that, and I guess it's
more like the endless scrolling on things like TikTok that
isn't doing that much for us.
Speaker 2 (24:19):
Yeah, that's definitely not so good.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
And doctor Dru says the problem is that type of
content is designed to suck us in and keep our
brains stuck in that lower gear, which isn't conducive to curiosity.
Speaker 4 (24:31):
It's a very low level cognitive demand in a lot
of cases, So watching really short videos that are entertaining
but don't really provide much information, that's using just enough
of your cognitive resources that yet you don't have that
kind of openness to being able to just think and
wonder and observe. And the observation is really where that
thinking comes from. Right, If you're not paying attention to
(24:53):
what's going on, then it's going to be hard for
you to notice something that you don't understand or that
you want to figure out.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Yeah, I mean, unfortunately, I know exactly what this feels
like when your mind is occupied but not engaged enough
to kick into action.
Speaker 3 (25:06):
Yeah, now what happens if your mind isn't occupied at all?
So Doctor Celeste Kidd, who we last heard from on
Monday's episode, had a lot to say about the dangers
of using AI as a substitute for actual thinking.
Speaker 9 (25:19):
They're being some difficulty in resolving something we're curious about
is actually a good thing that can lead to unexpected
new questions. We don't necessarily want technology that gives us
just a piece of information we want right away. We
really don't want technology that does that, but unreliably, I
(25:40):
don't have a lot of optimism that things like check
GPT are good for all kids for encouraging curiosity. I'm
worried about the impact that they will have on diminishing
children's curiosity by depleting it rapidly and sometimes in the
absence of the information that they were seeking.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yikes.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
I mean, that is a chilling thought that these things
depleting kid's curiosity.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Yeah, I know.
Speaker 3 (26:02):
And the Doctor Kids said that the reason AI tools
are especially harmful for curiosity is that they're really good
at generating responses that seem authoritative, like even if you're
totally wrong. And so if you think of curiosity as
an itch, AI can actually scratch it for you very quickly,
and then what happens, You know, the itch is gone
and on like a real conversation or even flipping through
(26:24):
the encyclopedia, there's less of an opportunity to go off
on a tangent or you know, to notice something else
you want to learn about, or even think critically about the.
Speaker 1 (26:32):
Response that you just got, which you know it's important
to do, especially with AI, because it often gets things
wrong or it's reflecting certain biases without necessarily disclosing all
of that.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
Yeah, I mean, it all goes back to this idea
that curiosity is about the process, not just getting the
right answer. So when producer Mary spoke to doctor Watley,
she asked her, Okay, in a world of instant answers,
how can we keep our desire for information from killing
our curiosity.
Speaker 8 (26:59):
When you have a question or you have something you
want to know, just hold on to that for a minute,
think about it, try to come up with some answers,
and then go and look it up. There's some research
showing that actually generating and answer yourself can increase feelings
(27:19):
of curiosity rather than simply just being asked a question
and not ask to generate an answer.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
So with that in mind, here's today's listener activity. I
know everybody's waiting on listener activity. So think of something
you're curious about, and then do not google it. Instead,
go for a walk or sit someplace quiet and let
your mind wonder. Bring a pen and a paper and
just jot down some ideas or a hypothesis that you
think of, no matter how ridiculous they might seem. Give
(27:47):
yourself an hour if you can, and then go back
and google it.
Speaker 2 (27:51):
So then leave a.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Comment on our Instagram or Blue Sky telling us what
you were curious about and how this experiment went for you.
The deadline is Sunday, October twenty sixth. Pick one common
at random to win an official part Time Genius Prize pack.
All the details and links are in the show notes
and on our social media accounts.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
You know, I'm actually excited to try this.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
You are not eligible to win.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Still I'm going to do it.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
That's the spirit, all right, Mango.
Speaker 3 (28:16):
We've covered a lot of ground today, So why don't
we head down to the rec center where we have
some recommendations for people who want to stay curious at
any age.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
Let's do it.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
So, if you're a parent, cognitive scientist Elizabeth Bonowitz recommends
shifting your mindset from how can I make my kid
more curious? To how can I create more opportunities for
my kid to be curious. So, in addition to generating
predictions and identifying knowledge gaps, which we talked about earlier
in the episode, of Course, Bonowitz says it's important for
kids to recognize and be comfortable with ambiguity. Studies show
(29:00):
that kids as young as four are able to identify
conflicting pieces of evidence, and noticing that conflict activates curiosity
because they want to make sense of the difference.
Speaker 1 (29:10):
That's interesting. Watching TV is not usually a great opportunity
for kids to be curious. In fact, it often takes
the place of what scientists call exploratory activities like playing,
and a study of over five thousand children did find
that higher TV time led to lower curiosity scores in kindergarteners. However,
the study also found that curiosity scores were higher when
(29:31):
parents and guardians watched TV with their kids and also
had conversations while doing so. Obviously, sometimes kids are just
going to veg out in front of the TV. It happens,
but if you can join them once in a while
and talk about what you're watching, which can lead to
interesting curiosity promoting conversations.
Speaker 3 (29:48):
And as for adults, in addition to making time in
our busy lives for curiosity, we should be sure to
eat plenty of produce and fish. So twenty twenty one
study of adults in Japan found the higher consumption of fish,
vet getables, and fruits was linked to higher curiosity scores. Now,
this is somewhat limited because the average Japanese diet is
higher and fish and vegetables than the average Western diet
(30:09):
to begin with, so it's not clear on how global
this finding is. But the researchers point out that antioxidant
rich foods can promote the production of neurotransmitters like dopamine,
which we know play a role in curiosity.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
And finally, for all of us, be mindful of how
you're using technology. As tempting as it is, try not
to spend hours scrolling mindlessly. It keeps your brain busy,
but not active enough to really experience curiosity, and don't
get so caught up in getting quick answers that you
lose sight of the questions you're asking and the questions
those questions might lead to. In fact, you could even
(30:44):
take some inspiration from Dylan and break out the old
World book Encyclopedia.
Speaker 2 (30:49):
It's right.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Probably have to go into your attic or something like
that to find it, or go to the local library,
I'm guessing exactly.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
And while you're at the library, maybe you'll discover another
book that looks interesting. And you know how this works. Well,
that is a perfect note to end on. Don't forget
to tune in tomorrow and be sure to follow us
on Instagram and Blue Sky at Part Time Genius we
can keep up with our listener activities and giveaways this week.
Thanks to Metra Bunshahi for collecting field tape, and to
(31:15):
Jamie Cheru, Mary Wattley, and Celeste Kid for speaking with
us for this episode. We'll be back tomorrow and in
the meantime from Will Dylan, Mary Gabe and myself, thank
you so much for listening. Part Time Genius is a
(31:41):
production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio. This show is hosted by
Will Pearson and me Mangashtikler, and research by our good
pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's episode was engineered and produced
by the wonderful Dylan Fagan with support from Tyler Klang.
The show is executive produced for US iHeart by Katrina
Norvel and Ali Perry, with social media support from Sasha
(32:04):
Gay trustee Dara Potts and Viney Shroy. For more podcasts
from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Part-Time Genius News
Hosts And Creators
Will Pearson
Mangesh Hattikudur
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist
It’s 1996 in rural North Carolina, and an oddball crew makes history when they pull off America’s third largest cash heist. But it’s all downhill from there. Join host Johnny Knoxville as he unspools a wild and woolly tale about a group of regular ‘ol folks who risked it all for a chance at a better life. CrimeLess: Hillbilly Heist answers the question: what would you do with 17.3 million dollars? The answer includes diamond rings, mansions, velvet Elvis paintings, plus a run for the border, murder-for-hire-plots, and FBI busts.