October 21, 2025 • 31 mins
Where did the saying “curiosity killed the cat” come from, and is it just a way for the rich and powerful to oppress everyone else? (Hint: yes.) Today on the show, Will and Mango take a look at curiosity’s checkered history: from the Middle Ages (when it was considered a threat to society) to the 17th century (when it became downright trendy) to today (when we can Google anything we want).
Day 2 listener activity: Head over to our Instagram (@parttimegenius) or Bluesky (parttimegenius.bsky.social) and tell us which three objects you’d include in a cabinet of curiosities. We’ll pick one comment at random to win a prize! For a bonus entry, take a photo or video of your objects, upload it and tag us. Deadline is 11:59pm ET, Sunday Oct. 26.
- Buy Barbara Benedict’s book, Curiosity: A Cultural History of Early Modern Inquiry.
Got a question you’d like us to answer? A rabbit hole you think we should explore? Email higeniuses@gmail.com or leave us a message at (302) 405-5925.
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Guess what, Mango, what's that?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So I've been thinking about that old saying curiosity killed
the cat, right, I know, we teased it in yesterday's episode.
It's got me wondering if maybe we're a tattoo hasty
and committing to a week long series about being curious.
I mean, we've got families to think about, Mango. Can
we really commit to this?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
There's no whimping out now. We are only on day two. Besides,
haven't you heard the second part of that phrase, Curiosity
killed a cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Okay, great, great? So raising the dead always ends well?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Right, I know, but that phrase is really just a
way to discourage people from asking too many questions. And
when has other people's annoyance ever stopped us from asking questions?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Not even once? I can't think of one time. I'm
more of a dog person anyway. So I think you've
convinced me. I'm back on board. Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I like it. So, for the sake of all the
curious cats out there today, we're going to investigate whether
asking questions really is as dangerous as some people would
have as believe. Along the way, we'll examine how cultural
views and literary depictions of curiosity have changed over time,
as well as what it means to stay curious in
a world where answers are easy and always at our fingertips.
(01:31):
So muster your courage, sharpen your claws, let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Hey their podcast listeners, Welcome to the part time Genius.
I'm Will Pearson, and as always I'm here with my
friend manguesh hot ticketter and on the other side of
the soundproof glass making a poster of some kind. That's
our friend and producer Dylan Fagan. I can't quite tell
what it says, though, Dylan, will you hold it up
to the glass? It says reward five thousand dollars for
the capture of history's most notorious cat killer.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Come on, Dylan, I've never heard of a man hunt
for an abstract concept for five grand I think it's word.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna go
focus on that. But I'm not sure which is less likely,
someone physically capturing curiosity or Dylan ponying up five thousand dollars.
I've never seen him give five thousand dollars to somebody
of you, so I'm not surprised he's reacting so negatively
to the phrase, because for as often as that expression
gets thrown around, I don't think many people actually like
it or even agree with the sentiment.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, it's one of the darker idioms of the English language,
many of which are cat based. For some reason.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I guess you're right and thought about that. You got
scaredy cat, you got copycat and some cat.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
No room to swing a cat, more than one way
to skin a cat, right, lots of cat animosity, And as.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We've talked about this many times before, I'm a little
freaked out by cats for all of our listeners. Before
anybody gets mad, I don't hate cats. I'm just sort
of freaked out by that. But now I'm thinking they
have way more reason to be afraid of us.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Definitely, And I think curiosity Kill the cat is extra
going because not only does it make us imagine a
dead cat, it also maligns curiosity, which is something most
of us enjoy. In fact, we sent our friend Mitra
out to Brooklyn to ask people how they felt about
the famous saying and spoiler alert. Pretty much all of
them hated it. There were two people in particular, Herman
(03:36):
and Lindsay, who did a great job breaking down why
it's such a terrible concept. Here's what they had to say.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
I think it's a very negative perspective to have on curiosity.
You have to be curious if you want to learn,
if you want to grow, if you want to evolve,
and things like that. Question anything and everything. Anybody that's
frowning upon you questioning it. Yeah, it's probably a beast side.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
When I think of curiosity, kill the cat, it feels
like control. It feels like a repressive kind of ethos,
like don't ask too many questions, just accept things the
way they are, turn a blind eye to things that
you can't explain, or else you might die like that
cat over there. So that expression never really resonated because
(04:22):
it feels like just some kind of patriarchal, repressive kind
of idea. You know.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It's interesting she brings up the patriarchy because some historians
actually think that's why a cat was chosen as Curiosity's
target in the first place. Cats are historically associated with
femininity and traditional male dominated cultures. Women were the last
people who were supposed to be asking questions.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, it's no coincidence that Eve was the one who
ate the forbidden fruit in the Bible, or that Pandora
is the one who opens the box that unleashes evil
on the world. Those are some of the earliest examples
of storytelling we have, and both of them cast women's
curiosity as the source of humanity's woes, like it's not
really that subtle.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No, it's not. And sadly, we can trace the threat
of misogyny all through the development of Western culture, especially
with the many attempts to keep women out of academia
and institutions of learning. But that isn't to say women
were the only ones who've been discouraged from asking questions.
For most of human history, a person's primary goal in
life was just to stay alive long enough to procreate
and keep the species going, So that meant a lot
(05:26):
of time spent on sourcing food, building shelter, and avoiding
unnecessary risks. So anything that took away energy from those tasks,
like indulging your curiosity was typically frowned upon by ancient societies, which.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Is kind of ironic when you consider that curiosity helped
us build civilization in the first place, right, Like, how
else would we have mastered the ability to create fire
if not by observing it right or wondering how it worked,
or trying to replicate it all those things.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, that's true. But you know, once civilization was up
and running, the focus quickly shifted to maintaining the status quo.
Right wrong, there, that became, you know, the real focus,
and those empowered decided the best way to do that
was to limit the public's ability to ask questions. Previously,
most people were just too busy to indulge their curiosity,
but the rise of civilized society provided a new deterrent,
(06:14):
the lack of moral authority.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So what do you mean, like leaders told people it
was wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
To be curious, exactly, Like just in the stories you referenced,
being curious was no longer considered just a dangerous use
of time. It was condemned as a violation of the
natural order. But rather than explain all this myself, Gabe
actually set down with a full time genius, Barbara Benedict.
She's an English professor at Trinity College and the author
of Curiosity, a Cultural History of Early modern inquiry. And
(06:41):
here's what she had to say about mankind's early systematic
crackdown on curiosity.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
There are all sorts of prohibitions against asking questions from
revered sources. Start with the Bible, which tells the lay
people not to inquire into God's mysteries, not to ask
questions that haven't already been answered, because God has kept
things secret for his own sake. He moves in mysterious ways,
and you better just accept that. And there is a
kind of reflection in the social sphere to the political sphere.
The way that politics, even from an early time, worked
(07:09):
was by elevating certain people above others for a particular reason.
They could be religious, they could be to do with property.
But most of the time, the lesser people, the ones
on the receiving end of authoritarianism, they are told it
is wrong to ask. Don't ask why the gender system
is the way it is, why the wealth distribution is
the way it is, why the laws are the way
they are. Just accept it because we know better.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So, this war on public curiosity, it was really just
a means of control by the upper classes.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I guess that's right. But you know, back then, no
one would have used the word curiosity to describe what
was actually being fought, and that's because curiosity didn't refer
to inquisitive thinking until around the seventeen hundreds. Before that,
the words meaning was much closer to the Latin form,
which was derived from cura or care. So curiosity in
the Middle Ages referred to an unusual level of carefulness
(07:57):
or attention to detail. So think about an or flatly
carved piece of furniture, or a sculpted figure in a
church or something like that. Those would be described as
curiosities or curios because there was an evident sign of
care and craftsmanship in their construction, and this made them
stand up from the kinds of objects that people owned themselves,
which were plain and utilitarian.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So even though the meaning was totally different, there was
still a kind of classessm tied up with early conception
of curiosity, like only the wealthy could afford to buy
curious objects.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I'm guessing right, right, and the powers that be made
it clear this kind of curiosity wasn't something the average
person should aspire to in their own life, Karen. Attention
to detail were luxuries for a very chosen few. Everyone
else was supposed to stay in their lane and let
good enough be good enough. And in fact, the infamous
phrase was originally care killed the cat. Really, it's true.
It actually first appeared in fifteen Yeah no, no, for real,
(08:49):
in a fifteen ninety eight play by the English playwright
Ben Johnson. So the line read helter skelter, hang sorrow,
Carol killed the cat, uptails all and Louise for the hangman.
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I don't know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Is well, it's thought that Johnson was using care and
the sense of worry or concern, basically saying, don't let
stress or anxiety get the best of you.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So, in other words, akuna matata exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I don't know why I didn't just write that. And
the reference to a cat is also kind of tough
to explain, since cats aren't really known to be overly
concerned about things.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I mean mostly just food and ear scratches.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right, Yeah, it's a pretty short list, which is why
my best guess is that it's not actually the cat
who's stressing in this scenario. And what Johnson was really
saying is that a person's anxieties can become so toxic
that they even intrude in the care free life of
a cat. So while the phrase wasn't aim specifically at
the kind of care displayed in curious objects, it did
warn against excessive care in general.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
So I could see how stress and worry might be
bad for a person. But why would just caring about
something be dangerous? Like if someone cared enough to look
into why the sky is blue? How is what's a
threat to society?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well, in that case, I think someone in the Middle
Ages would say that you're prying into sacred knowledge, like
you're overstepping the limits of what humans are meant to know.
But according to Professor Benedict, it's also about social conformity.
By expressing care for something that others consider trivial, you're
also setting yourself apart from the crowd, and by extension,
you're making yourself a target.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
There's a strong social and moral resistance to curiosity in
all of its forms, because it's subversive, because it's asking
questions are not supposed to be asked, and therefore, if
a character is pursuing an inquiry, there must be something
slightly wrong with him or her Because the artists are
(10:43):
all out there and most of us have accepted that.
But for this quirky person. Somehow they have to push
the envelope and go a little bit further than anybody
else is going. But it's also a question of you,
as a curious person, investigating something that other people think valueless,
which means that you're putting your own structure value above
(11:05):
that of the rest of society, which makes you arrogant
because it's sort of sneering at the rest of society's
concerns and claiming that you have better knowledge of what's
important than they do. It's a real sort of social struggle.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I really kind of love that she frames curiosity as
this subversive acts. Like, obviously it's natural to care about
things and to ask questions, and yesterday we talked about
how our brains are hardwired to be curious. But once
you put all these systems in control into place, whether
it's religion or the state or peer pressure, the mere
act of being curious becomes this violation of social norms. Now, luckily,
(11:44):
curiosity is more accepted than it used to be, at
least in some countries, and the reason for that change
is pretty surprising. We're going to tell you about it
right after this break. Welcome back to part time genius.
(12:09):
It's day two of our week long dive into curiosity.
If you've enjoyed it, do as a favor and share
this episode with a curious friend. You can also leave
as a nice rating and review. It really helps the show,
and mostly it satisfies our curiosity about knowing what you
think of us will. Before the break, you explained that
for a long time, curiosity, at least in the Western world,
(12:31):
was seen as a threat to the social order. Elites
and people in power didn't want the rabble to ask
too many questions or investing too much care in the
world around him. Now that starts to change again. We're
talking about Western culture in the seventeenth century with the
English Civil Wars, among other things, King Charles the First
was found guilty of treason and beheaded, the first and
(12:53):
so far only time a British monarch has been put
to death.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
And so what was there? People who are like he's
gone can be curious now or what happened?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Not exactly, but before the wars, Charles was thought to
have been appointed by God, and after his death there
was no divine retribution. In fact, the country was doing
pretty well, so suddenly the whole idea of authoritarianism gets
called into question. Right, people start to think, maybe God
doesn't care who the king is, and maybe that means
he's laid back about other things.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Too, like questioning how society should function or why the
sky is blue?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I guess right, And that new mindset paved the way
for all sorts of radical developments, including the rise of
empirical science. Previously, people believe that everything worth knowing was
revealed to them by God, but in the late sixteen hundreds,
English philosopher John Locke suggested that we learned through our
five senses and from reflecting on the knowledge we gain
(13:47):
from those senses. So that kind of levels the intellectual
playing field. You don't have to be a member of
the clergy or even a scholar to learn. If you
have the time and inclination, you can just go explore
whatever catches your fancy. Yeah, and what's more, you could
share what you learned with other people. And that was
thanks to another game changer that happened around then, which
was the printing press. So in a way, this is
(14:09):
an origin story of what you and I like to
call part time geniuses, right, like amateur is going out
into the world and chasing their curiosities in their spare time.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
That's exactly right. And you know this is also the
era when people started to assemble their own collection of
curious objects, fossil shells, scientific equipment, artifacts from other countries.
We typically think of this trend in relation to the
fancy sort of cabinet of curiosities that later became the
basis for modern museums, which is something I know you
and Gabe talked about in your episode on tiny museums.
(14:38):
But according to Professor Bennedictt, collecting unusual objects was a
hobby enjoyed by Europeans from all walks of life.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
The Royal Society for the Advancement of Learning, which Charles
the SECA established in sixteen sixty two, was deliberately looking
at objects of nature to explain how they worked and
to ask all those naughty questions about you then, how
clouds dropped rain, and the generation of the sexes, and
the movement of the spheres, and all those things that
(15:06):
had previously been the province of the church. So in
order to study nature, they had repositories, which we would
call collections of natural and artificial objects, and therefore it
became a sort of national point of pride and national pursuit,
a kind of identification of the national character of the
(15:26):
English as being empirical investigators. So whereveryone did it, And
people didn't just collect precious things like Japanese netski or
you know, snuff boxes or something like that. They collected
stones they found that they thought were peculiar looking, you know,
interesting twisted branches that might look like a hand. It
was a national passion.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
That makes me feel so much better about my stick collection.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
You've got the best stick collection I've ever seen, Mango.
But you know, seriously, it's tempting to view collecting as
consumerism ron a muck or someone trying to fill a
void by hoarding a bunch of stuff. But there's also
another way to look at it. Like the word curate
also comes from the Latin word for care, as we
talked about, and curating a collection turns it into an
intellectual exercise, a way of exploring curiosity. So think about it.
(16:13):
You consider which objects to include or reject and how
to display them, and you learn the history of objects,
and that helps you better understand the world and the
relationship to it.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
That's a really lovely way to look at it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I mean, these kinds of collections were a major source
of knowledge and inspiration for people in the seventeenth century,
and they were meant to be shared. People gave tours
of collections as a form of after dinner entertainment. And
I feel like this is such a great concept and
we kind of need to bring it back, you know.
So every day this week we've got a listener activity
and anyone who participates has a chance to win a
(16:46):
part time Genius prize pack. We introduced this yesterday and
the fans went crazy. I'm just assuming this. I'm assuming
the fans went crazy. So today we're inspired by the
Cabinet of Curiosities. We asked our resident collector, Gabe to
build out a shelf with some of his own curious objects.
Head over to Instagram or Blue Sky and watch the
video he made for inspiration. Then leave us a comment
(17:08):
telling us three objects that you would include in your
own display.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, they could be anything you want, natural, artificial, old, new,
stuff you own, stuff you'd like to own. We are
not picky, and we are not here to judge. We
just want to know what sparks your sense of curiosity.
We are going to pick one person at random to
win a prize pack, and if you want a bonus entry,
make an actual video showing us your cabinet of curiosities
and tag us. The deadline is Sunday, October twenty six.
(17:35):
Details and links are in the show notes and on
our social media accounts.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
All right, Mango, so what would you put in your cabinet?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You know, I actually was thinking about this a little bit,
and I'm not that much of a collector. I mean,
I've got like some stuff that like I've got these
old binoculars that my grandfather, who was in the forestry Service,
used to use, and they're like brass and beautiful. But
it was actually thinking that I've got all my old
iPhones from the first iPhone. Oh, and so like just
how you catch shelf of like like the other variations
(18:05):
going forward. Or my friend Chathan, his parents never drank
soda and he never drank soda, but they'd always have
soda for parties. So you walk through his basement and
it's like a soda museum. So they've got like pepsicona
and okay soda and like all this stuff about no
one remembers I would definitely put those.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Into Oh that's fun, haven't it. That's fun?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
How about you.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I actually like to think back on the things that
I collected or was interested in the past that I honestly,
and I don't say this in a joking way, I
just have no interest in now, Like things like baseball
cards and stuff like that that I was just so
consumed by as a kid, And it's just kind of
fun to look back and think, like, what was it
that it was so interested in this or other things
that we collected as a kid. My parents every year
(18:46):
would give me a different nutcracker at Christmas, and there
was this collection of these until finally I kind of
honestly had to put a stop to this. At some point,
I think I was like seventeen or eighteen. I had
to say to my mom. I was like, I think
this is enough. It's starting to freak me out, but
there are so many nutcrackers on the shelves at the holidays.
But just like thinking about the things that people collected
and that brought them Joe. I think the one thing
(19:07):
though that I probably would include. My grandfather was a
pocket watch and watch and clock collector, and like those
were super cool, and so I still have a handful
of those pocket watches that are fun to just pull
out for memory's sake, and they're just such cool objects
to look at.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
That's really awesome. Okay. Well, so you mentioned earlier that
the printing press came along around the time when Europeans
were starting to embrace the concept of curiosity, and by
the eighteenth century print was in full swing. It was
spreading new ideas and new questions all around the globe.
This gave rise to modern journalism, which of course is
all about investigation, but it also helped people create the novel.
(19:47):
One genre of novel became immensely popular right off the bat,
and that was detective fiction and murder mysteries. These books
were designed to peak the reader's curiosity but also reinforced
some of the old negative thinking about inquisitive people and
how did they do that well. The detectives in these
stories typically had some kind of character flaw, so it
was a trope that later became known as the defective detective.
(20:11):
They were so single minded in their pursuit of the
truth that they forgot how to be normal, and they
really weren't like standard functioning people, so in the case
of Sherlock Holmes, they turned to drug abuse when stimulating
cases were in short supply. And this has a strange effect, right,
Readers not only became curious about the mystery at the
center of the story, but also about the detective. Part
of the appeal was to see how the other half lived,
(20:32):
and so how did this strange person's brain work and
what was life like for them.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
The detectives become objects of curiosity in themselves.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Exactly, and that's one of the strengths of novels in general.
They can give you insight into interior lives of people
who aren't like you. But again, in this case, the
detective was defective, right, So there was kind of a
social judgment at work here, sort of like going to
see the quote unquote freaks in a sideshow, right, Like
the genre was simultaneously stoking reader's curiosity while also implying
(21:03):
that curious people were somehow abnormal. Now, curiosity became more
socially acceptable because it gave us cool things like scientific
breakthroughs and detective stories. But even today there's sometimes a
sense of distrust and maybe even disdain for people who
ask too many questions.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Well, I do want to dig into that because, and
this is going to sound shocking, Mago, but I actually
think the naysayers are onto something here. Curiosity is dangerous.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Well, you've got some explaining to do after the break,
but before that, we've got a positile some ads. Welcome
(21:50):
back to part time genius. You know, well, I've known
you for a very long time. I didn't think you
could still surprise me. But I was not expecting you
to say that you agree with that old timy idea
that curiosity is actually dangerous.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
All right, Well, let's think this through, right, So, curiosity
without any caution or self restraint can actually do a
lot of harm, Like if a curious kid touches a
hot stove, or if you hear a noise outside your
tent while you're camping go outside to investigate and get
mauled by a bear, that sort of thing. But the
risk go beyond physical danger. For instance, remember we talked
yesterday about deprivation curiosity, and so not knowing something can
(22:25):
create a powerful sense of discomfort, and that can lead
people to behave recklessly in an attempt to resolve that feeling.
So one of the clearest examples of the mental and
emotional toils this can take is in this old Japanese
folk tale called the Crane Wife. It's about a guy
who comes across a wounded crane that's been shot down
by a hunter. He takes pity on the bird, brings
it home, nurses it back to health, and shortly after
(22:48):
he releases it, a woman appears at his door. She's
asking him to marry her. Now. The man says that,
as nice as this sounds, he doesn't have enough money
to support a family, but the woman says, no problem.
She goes to a room, closes the door, comes out
the next day with the most beautiful garment you've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So far, this seems more like a story about the
dangers of a lack of curiosity, right, I would have
so many questions if a stranger showed up claiming to
be my wife and then spent the night sewing some
mysterious garment. Yeah, but this guy just rolls with it.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I've never told you this is how I met my wife.
This was a fifteenth century, so he probably didn't have
too much else going on. And anyway, the woman tells
him to take the garment to the market, where he's
able to sell it at an insanely high price. So
now they're this thriving, happy couple, and the woman says
she's willing to keep the gravy train going, but on
one condition. She'll continue to make beautiful clothes to support them,
(23:42):
but only if her husband never enters the room while
she's working. Wow, the curiosity here, right. This man agrees
things go well for a while, but eventually his curiosity
gets the better of him, and one night he peeks
inside her.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Room and based on the title, I'm guessing he sees
the crane.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
That's exactly right. She's been disguised as the woman the
whole time and has been secretly plucking out her own
feathers to make this dazzling clothing. But now she's so
heartbroken that her husband broke his promise that she flies
away and she never comes back.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
That is brutal. So I guess I do see your
point that relentless drive to know things can override everything else,
even our own sense of self protection.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That's right, and it actually reminds me of something Professor
Bennedict said about the nature of curiosity and the complications
of trying to wield it responsibly.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
Curiosity is fundamentally, as I said before, it's insubordination, it's subversive,
it crosses boundaries. It's no respector of persons peering, peeping, prying.
They're all transgressive, and they're all kind of also, you
might even say imperialistic, because they're assuming the power in
the person who is inquiring. They have the power and
(24:54):
right to invade and to possess your secrets. There have
to be some kind of restraints on inquiry that respect
everybody's rights. But again, you know who's to say that
doesn't just suddenly become a conventional way of oppressing people.
It is a very tricky balancing act.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, I mean, a balancing act is a good way
to think about it, because even deprivation, curiosity can have
some positive applications. The drive to find an answer can
push you to work extra hard and think outside the box,
which may not be the case if you're exploring a
topic just for the fun of it. The flip side
is when you don't really care what the answer is,
so long as you feel like you've found an answer,
(25:36):
meaning what exactly, Well, I keep thinking about something I
read by a psychologist named Charnathan Schooler. He says that
deprivation curiosity is closely tied to intellectual arrogance, and that
when a person seeks an answer simply to avoid not knowing,
they're more likely to accept a wrong answer. And that's
a big danger of fake news, right, Like, if someone
just wants to stop feeling uncertain about a given issue,
(25:58):
then they might settle for a false answer, especially if
it reinforces something they already believe.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
So this is a kind of curiosity that actually makes
you less curious because it convinces you you already have
the answers, even when they might be the wrong ones.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Which is weird, right, But it can be tough to
wrap your head around. So I wanted to go back
to Lindsey, who we heard from earlier. She told me
to something that perfectly encapsulates what I'm talking about.
Speaker 6 (26:22):
I have a cousin who believes that the Earth is flat,
and a lot of people believe that, and I guess
in a conspiracy theory kind of situation, you almost stop
being curious and assign your identity and belief system to
this weird structure that somebody says is how the world is.
(26:47):
And it's almost like your blinders go up and your
curiosity turns off.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
All right, So what's the solution here, how do we
combat that type of mindset.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, the solution to flat eartherism is to go watch
the sunset over the horizon. But when it comes to
navigating the pitfalls of deprivation curiosity, the only real enddot
is to keep an open mind and try to stay humble.
Socrates famously said, the only thing I know for certain
is that I know nothing, and that is such a
healthy frame of mind to have, especially in the information age,
(27:18):
when you can ask AI a question and get an
instant answer, right or wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, it's worth mentioning too that material security plays a
role in healthy curiosity. So remember we talked earlier, back
in the Middle Ages, curiosity was pretty much a luxury.
So unfortunately, in some ways that's still true. Studies have
actually shown that while levels of curiosity don't vary by nationality,
they do vary based on economic status. So, for instance,
the Greater Good Society Center at UC Berkeley collected data
(27:45):
about curiosity and people from different backgrounds. Out of the
ten thousand participants, those who earn less than twenty five
thousand dollars a year had lower curiosity scores than all
the other income brackets. So one way to read those
results is that it's hard to stay curious when you're
constantly in survival mode, worrying about bills, how to keep
the roof over your head. And that's something to keep
(28:06):
in mind when you're feeling smug about supposedly having all
the answers. It's a privilege to have the time and
energy to indulge your curiosity, and we squander that away
when we settle for easy, self confirming answers.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
So again, it's about having some intellectual humility and just
like getting comfortable with uncertainty, right, like, the best way
to find common ground is to stay curious about other
people and how they view the world.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
That's exactly right. In fact, Professor Benedict says that being
curious can help us bridge our differences, even in today's
incredibly divided society.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
I think the curiosity in a cultural context leads directly
to tolerance, because you are asking what other people are like,
how they work, what's important to them, what do they eat.
All of that requires the kind of empathetic understanding of otherness,
if you like. So there's no doubt in my mind.
(28:58):
That the respect thankful practice of curiosities. We're bringing people together.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I love that so much, and I love that phrase,
the respectful practice of curiosity. I like to think that's
what we do with this show.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, I would say we're mostly respectful. Mostly.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Well, our mostly respectful exploration of curiosity will continue tomorrow
when we will be talking about animals. Does your pet
experience curiosity the same way you do? How does being
in captivity affect wild animals and their curiosity? We'll find out,
and I promise not a single dead cat insight.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
All right, Well, that does it for today's episode. Thanks
to Mitra Banshahi for collecting field tape for us. We
appreciate you so much. And thanks to Professor Barbara Benedict
for sharing her expertise. I heard she also showed Gabe
one of the objects in her own collection. It was
a mummified shrew from ancient Egypt. I've never shown gave
my mammified truth from ancient angel, which is just a
(29:53):
bizarre and wonderful thing to have lying around now. Even
if you don't have a mummified true, tell us what
you'd put in your cabinet of curios We're on Instagram
and Blue Sky at part Time Genius. Be sure to
follow us because we've got more activities and giveaways the
rest of this week. We're from Mango, Dylan, Gabe, Mary
and Me. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio.
This show is hosted by Will Pearson and Me Mongashtikler,
and research by our good pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's
episode was engineered and produced by the wonderful Dylan Fagan
with support from Tyler Klang. The show is executive produced
for iHeart by Katrina Norvel and Ali Perry, with social
(30:45):
media support from Sasha Gay, trustee Dara Potts and Vine Shory.
For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
The
You're listening to Part Time Genius, the production of Kaleidoscope
and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Guess what, Mango, what's that?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
Well?
Speaker 2 (00:24):
So I've been thinking about that old saying curiosity killed
the cat, right, I know, we teased it in yesterday's episode.
It's got me wondering if maybe we're a tattoo hasty
and committing to a week long series about being curious.
I mean, we've got families to think about, Mango. Can
we really commit to this?
Speaker 1 (00:39):
There's no whimping out now. We are only on day two. Besides,
haven't you heard the second part of that phrase, Curiosity
killed a cat, but satisfaction brought it back.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Okay, great, great? So raising the dead always ends well?
Speaker 1 (00:53):
Right, I know, but that phrase is really just a
way to discourage people from asking too many questions. And
when has other people's annoyance ever stopped us from asking questions?
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Not even once? I can't think of one time. I'm
more of a dog person anyway. So I think you've
convinced me. I'm back on board. Let's do this.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I like it. So, for the sake of all the
curious cats out there today, we're going to investigate whether
asking questions really is as dangerous as some people would
have as believe. Along the way, we'll examine how cultural
views and literary depictions of curiosity have changed over time,
as well as what it means to stay curious in
a world where answers are easy and always at our fingertips.
(01:31):
So muster your courage, sharpen your claws, let's dive in.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Hey their podcast listeners, Welcome to the part time Genius.
I'm Will Pearson, and as always I'm here with my
friend manguesh hot ticketter and on the other side of
the soundproof glass making a poster of some kind. That's
our friend and producer Dylan Fagan. I can't quite tell
what it says, though, Dylan, will you hold it up
to the glass? It says reward five thousand dollars for
the capture of history's most notorious cat killer.
Speaker 1 (02:18):
Come on, Dylan, I've never heard of a man hunt
for an abstract concept for five grand I think it's word.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
Yeah, I think I'm gonna I think I'm gonna go
focus on that. But I'm not sure which is less likely,
someone physically capturing curiosity or Dylan ponying up five thousand dollars.
I've never seen him give five thousand dollars to somebody
of you, so I'm not surprised he's reacting so negatively
to the phrase, because for as often as that expression
gets thrown around, I don't think many people actually like
it or even agree with the sentiment.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Yeah, it's one of the darker idioms of the English language,
many of which are cat based. For some reason.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
I guess you're right and thought about that. You got
scaredy cat, you got copycat and some cat.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
No room to swing a cat, more than one way
to skin a cat, right, lots of cat animosity, And as.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We've talked about this many times before, I'm a little
freaked out by cats for all of our listeners. Before
anybody gets mad, I don't hate cats. I'm just sort
of freaked out by that. But now I'm thinking they
have way more reason to be afraid of us.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Definitely, And I think curiosity Kill the cat is extra
going because not only does it make us imagine a
dead cat, it also maligns curiosity, which is something most
of us enjoy. In fact, we sent our friend Mitra
out to Brooklyn to ask people how they felt about
the famous saying and spoiler alert. Pretty much all of
them hated it. There were two people in particular, Herman
(03:36):
and Lindsay, who did a great job breaking down why
it's such a terrible concept. Here's what they had to say.
Speaker 4 (03:41):
I think it's a very negative perspective to have on curiosity.
You have to be curious if you want to learn,
if you want to grow, if you want to evolve,
and things like that. Question anything and everything. Anybody that's
frowning upon you questioning it. Yeah, it's probably a beast side.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
When I think of curiosity, kill the cat, it feels
like control. It feels like a repressive kind of ethos,
like don't ask too many questions, just accept things the
way they are, turn a blind eye to things that
you can't explain, or else you might die like that
cat over there. So that expression never really resonated because
(04:22):
it feels like just some kind of patriarchal, repressive kind
of idea. You know.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
It's interesting she brings up the patriarchy because some historians
actually think that's why a cat was chosen as Curiosity's
target in the first place. Cats are historically associated with
femininity and traditional male dominated cultures. Women were the last
people who were supposed to be asking questions.
Speaker 1 (04:47):
Yeah, it's no coincidence that Eve was the one who
ate the forbidden fruit in the Bible, or that Pandora
is the one who opens the box that unleashes evil
on the world. Those are some of the earliest examples
of storytelling we have, and both of them cast women's
curiosity as the source of humanity's woes, like it's not
really that subtle.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
No, it's not. And sadly, we can trace the threat
of misogyny all through the development of Western culture, especially
with the many attempts to keep women out of academia
and institutions of learning. But that isn't to say women
were the only ones who've been discouraged from asking questions.
For most of human history, a person's primary goal in
life was just to stay alive long enough to procreate
and keep the species going, So that meant a lot
(05:26):
of time spent on sourcing food, building shelter, and avoiding
unnecessary risks. So anything that took away energy from those tasks,
like indulging your curiosity was typically frowned upon by ancient societies, which.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
Is kind of ironic when you consider that curiosity helped
us build civilization in the first place, right, Like, how
else would we have mastered the ability to create fire
if not by observing it right or wondering how it worked,
or trying to replicate it all those things.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
Yeah, that's true. But you know, once civilization was up
and running, the focus quickly shifted to maintaining the status quo.
Right wrong, there, that became, you know, the real focus,
and those empowered decided the best way to do that
was to limit the public's ability to ask questions. Previously,
most people were just too busy to indulge their curiosity,
but the rise of civilized society provided a new deterrent,
(06:14):
the lack of moral authority.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
So what do you mean, like leaders told people it
was wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
To be curious, exactly, Like just in the stories you referenced,
being curious was no longer considered just a dangerous use
of time. It was condemned as a violation of the
natural order. But rather than explain all this myself, Gabe
actually set down with a full time genius, Barbara Benedict.
She's an English professor at Trinity College and the author
of Curiosity, a Cultural History of Early modern inquiry. And
(06:41):
here's what she had to say about mankind's early systematic
crackdown on curiosity.
Speaker 5 (06:47):
There are all sorts of prohibitions against asking questions from
revered sources. Start with the Bible, which tells the lay
people not to inquire into God's mysteries, not to ask
questions that haven't already been answered, because God has kept
things secret for his own sake. He moves in mysterious ways,
and you better just accept that. And there is a
kind of reflection in the social sphere to the political sphere.
The way that politics, even from an early time, worked
(07:09):
was by elevating certain people above others for a particular reason.
They could be religious, they could be to do with property.
But most of the time, the lesser people, the ones
on the receiving end of authoritarianism, they are told it
is wrong to ask. Don't ask why the gender system
is the way it is, why the wealth distribution is
the way it is, why the laws are the way
they are. Just accept it because we know better.
Speaker 1 (07:29):
So, this war on public curiosity, it was really just
a means of control by the upper classes.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
I guess that's right. But you know, back then, no
one would have used the word curiosity to describe what
was actually being fought, and that's because curiosity didn't refer
to inquisitive thinking until around the seventeen hundreds. Before that,
the words meaning was much closer to the Latin form,
which was derived from cura or care. So curiosity in
the Middle Ages referred to an unusual level of carefulness
(07:57):
or attention to detail. So think about an or flatly
carved piece of furniture, or a sculpted figure in a
church or something like that. Those would be described as
curiosities or curios because there was an evident sign of
care and craftsmanship in their construction, and this made them
stand up from the kinds of objects that people owned themselves,
which were plain and utilitarian.
Speaker 1 (08:18):
So even though the meaning was totally different, there was
still a kind of classessm tied up with early conception
of curiosity, like only the wealthy could afford to buy
curious objects.
Speaker 2 (08:27):
I'm guessing right, right, and the powers that be made
it clear this kind of curiosity wasn't something the average
person should aspire to in their own life, Karen. Attention
to detail were luxuries for a very chosen few. Everyone
else was supposed to stay in their lane and let
good enough be good enough. And in fact, the infamous
phrase was originally care killed the cat. Really, it's true.
It actually first appeared in fifteen Yeah no, no, for real,
(08:49):
in a fifteen ninety eight play by the English playwright
Ben Johnson. So the line read helter skelter, hang sorrow,
Carol killed the cat, uptails all and Louise for the hangman.
I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
I don't know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Is well, it's thought that Johnson was using care and
the sense of worry or concern, basically saying, don't let
stress or anxiety get the best of you.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
So, in other words, akuna matata exactly.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
I don't know why I didn't just write that. And
the reference to a cat is also kind of tough
to explain, since cats aren't really known to be overly
concerned about things.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I mean mostly just food and ear scratches.
Speaker 2 (09:27):
Right, Yeah, it's a pretty short list, which is why
my best guess is that it's not actually the cat
who's stressing in this scenario. And what Johnson was really
saying is that a person's anxieties can become so toxic
that they even intrude in the care free life of
a cat. So while the phrase wasn't aim specifically at
the kind of care displayed in curious objects, it did
warn against excessive care in general.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
So I could see how stress and worry might be
bad for a person. But why would just caring about
something be dangerous? Like if someone cared enough to look
into why the sky is blue? How is what's a
threat to society?
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Well, in that case, I think someone in the Middle
Ages would say that you're prying into sacred knowledge, like
you're overstepping the limits of what humans are meant to know.
But according to Professor Benedict, it's also about social conformity.
By expressing care for something that others consider trivial, you're
also setting yourself apart from the crowd, and by extension,
you're making yourself a target.
Speaker 5 (10:22):
There's a strong social and moral resistance to curiosity in
all of its forms, because it's subversive, because it's asking
questions are not supposed to be asked, and therefore, if
a character is pursuing an inquiry, there must be something
slightly wrong with him or her Because the artists are
(10:43):
all out there and most of us have accepted that.
But for this quirky person. Somehow they have to push
the envelope and go a little bit further than anybody
else is going. But it's also a question of you,
as a curious person, investigating something that other people think valueless,
which means that you're putting your own structure value above
(11:05):
that of the rest of society, which makes you arrogant
because it's sort of sneering at the rest of society's
concerns and claiming that you have better knowledge of what's
important than they do. It's a real sort of social struggle.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I really kind of love that she frames curiosity as
this subversive acts. Like, obviously it's natural to care about
things and to ask questions, and yesterday we talked about
how our brains are hardwired to be curious. But once
you put all these systems in control into place, whether
it's religion or the state or peer pressure, the mere
act of being curious becomes this violation of social norms. Now, luckily,
(11:44):
curiosity is more accepted than it used to be, at
least in some countries, and the reason for that change
is pretty surprising. We're going to tell you about it
right after this break. Welcome back to part time genius.
(12:09):
It's day two of our week long dive into curiosity.
If you've enjoyed it, do as a favor and share
this episode with a curious friend. You can also leave
as a nice rating and review. It really helps the show,
and mostly it satisfies our curiosity about knowing what you
think of us will. Before the break, you explained that
for a long time, curiosity, at least in the Western world,
(12:31):
was seen as a threat to the social order. Elites
and people in power didn't want the rabble to ask
too many questions or investing too much care in the
world around him. Now that starts to change again. We're
talking about Western culture in the seventeenth century with the
English Civil Wars, among other things, King Charles the First
was found guilty of treason and beheaded, the first and
(12:53):
so far only time a British monarch has been put
to death.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
And so what was there? People who are like he's
gone can be curious now or what happened?
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Not exactly, but before the wars, Charles was thought to
have been appointed by God, and after his death there
was no divine retribution. In fact, the country was doing
pretty well, so suddenly the whole idea of authoritarianism gets
called into question. Right, people start to think, maybe God
doesn't care who the king is, and maybe that means
he's laid back about other things.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
Too, like questioning how society should function or why the
sky is blue?
Speaker 1 (13:27):
I guess right, And that new mindset paved the way
for all sorts of radical developments, including the rise of
empirical science. Previously, people believe that everything worth knowing was
revealed to them by God, but in the late sixteen hundreds,
English philosopher John Locke suggested that we learned through our
five senses and from reflecting on the knowledge we gain
(13:47):
from those senses. So that kind of levels the intellectual
playing field. You don't have to be a member of
the clergy or even a scholar to learn. If you
have the time and inclination, you can just go explore
whatever catches your fancy. Yeah, and what's more, you could
share what you learned with other people. And that was
thanks to another game changer that happened around then, which
was the printing press. So in a way, this is
(14:09):
an origin story of what you and I like to
call part time geniuses, right, like amateur is going out
into the world and chasing their curiosities in their spare time.
Speaker 2 (14:17):
That's exactly right. And you know this is also the
era when people started to assemble their own collection of
curious objects, fossil shells, scientific equipment, artifacts from other countries.
We typically think of this trend in relation to the
fancy sort of cabinet of curiosities that later became the
basis for modern museums, which is something I know you
and Gabe talked about in your episode on tiny museums.
(14:38):
But according to Professor Bennedictt, collecting unusual objects was a
hobby enjoyed by Europeans from all walks of life.
Speaker 5 (14:45):
The Royal Society for the Advancement of Learning, which Charles
the SECA established in sixteen sixty two, was deliberately looking
at objects of nature to explain how they worked and
to ask all those naughty questions about you then, how
clouds dropped rain, and the generation of the sexes, and
the movement of the spheres, and all those things that
(15:06):
had previously been the province of the church. So in
order to study nature, they had repositories, which we would
call collections of natural and artificial objects, and therefore it
became a sort of national point of pride and national pursuit,
a kind of identification of the national character of the
(15:26):
English as being empirical investigators. So whereveryone did it, And
people didn't just collect precious things like Japanese netski or
you know, snuff boxes or something like that. They collected
stones they found that they thought were peculiar looking, you know,
interesting twisted branches that might look like a hand. It
was a national passion.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
That makes me feel so much better about my stick collection.
Speaker 2 (15:50):
You've got the best stick collection I've ever seen, Mango.
But you know, seriously, it's tempting to view collecting as
consumerism ron a muck or someone trying to fill a
void by hoarding a bunch of stuff. But there's also
another way to look at it. Like the word curate
also comes from the Latin word for care, as we
talked about, and curating a collection turns it into an
intellectual exercise, a way of exploring curiosity. So think about it.
(16:13):
You consider which objects to include or reject and how
to display them, and you learn the history of objects,
and that helps you better understand the world and the
relationship to it.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
That's a really lovely way to look at it. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
I mean, these kinds of collections were a major source
of knowledge and inspiration for people in the seventeenth century,
and they were meant to be shared. People gave tours
of collections as a form of after dinner entertainment. And
I feel like this is such a great concept and
we kind of need to bring it back, you know.
So every day this week we've got a listener activity
and anyone who participates has a chance to win a
(16:46):
part time Genius prize pack. We introduced this yesterday and
the fans went crazy. I'm just assuming this. I'm assuming
the fans went crazy. So today we're inspired by the
Cabinet of Curiosities. We asked our resident collector, Gabe to
build out a shelf with some of his own curious objects.
Head over to Instagram or Blue Sky and watch the
video he made for inspiration. Then leave us a comment
(17:08):
telling us three objects that you would include in your
own display.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
Yeah, they could be anything you want, natural, artificial, old, new,
stuff you own, stuff you'd like to own. We are
not picky, and we are not here to judge. We
just want to know what sparks your sense of curiosity.
We are going to pick one person at random to
win a prize pack, and if you want a bonus entry,
make an actual video showing us your cabinet of curiosities
and tag us. The deadline is Sunday, October twenty six.
(17:35):
Details and links are in the show notes and on
our social media accounts.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
All right, Mango, so what would you put in your cabinet?
Speaker 1 (17:43):
You know, I actually was thinking about this a little bit,
and I'm not that much of a collector. I mean,
I've got like some stuff that like I've got these
old binoculars that my grandfather, who was in the forestry Service,
used to use, and they're like brass and beautiful. But
it was actually thinking that I've got all my old
iPhones from the first iPhone. Oh, and so like just
how you catch shelf of like like the other variations
(18:05):
going forward. Or my friend Chathan, his parents never drank
soda and he never drank soda, but they'd always have
soda for parties. So you walk through his basement and
it's like a soda museum. So they've got like pepsicona
and okay soda and like all this stuff about no
one remembers I would definitely put those.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Into Oh that's fun, haven't it. That's fun?
Speaker 1 (18:22):
How about you.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
I actually like to think back on the things that
I collected or was interested in the past that I honestly,
and I don't say this in a joking way, I
just have no interest in now, Like things like baseball
cards and stuff like that that I was just so
consumed by as a kid, And it's just kind of
fun to look back and think, like, what was it
that it was so interested in this or other things
that we collected as a kid. My parents every year
(18:46):
would give me a different nutcracker at Christmas, and there
was this collection of these until finally I kind of
honestly had to put a stop to this. At some point,
I think I was like seventeen or eighteen. I had
to say to my mom. I was like, I think
this is enough. It's starting to freak me out, but
there are so many nutcrackers on the shelves at the holidays.
But just like thinking about the things that people collected
and that brought them Joe. I think the one thing
(19:07):
though that I probably would include. My grandfather was a
pocket watch and watch and clock collector, and like those
were super cool, and so I still have a handful
of those pocket watches that are fun to just pull
out for memory's sake, and they're just such cool objects
to look at.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
That's really awesome. Okay. Well, so you mentioned earlier that
the printing press came along around the time when Europeans
were starting to embrace the concept of curiosity, and by
the eighteenth century print was in full swing. It was
spreading new ideas and new questions all around the globe.
This gave rise to modern journalism, which of course is
all about investigation, but it also helped people create the novel.
(19:47):
One genre of novel became immensely popular right off the bat,
and that was detective fiction and murder mysteries. These books
were designed to peak the reader's curiosity but also reinforced
some of the old negative thinking about inquisitive people and
how did they do that well. The detectives in these
stories typically had some kind of character flaw, so it
was a trope that later became known as the defective detective.
(20:11):
They were so single minded in their pursuit of the
truth that they forgot how to be normal, and they
really weren't like standard functioning people, so in the case
of Sherlock Holmes, they turned to drug abuse when stimulating
cases were in short supply. And this has a strange effect, right,
Readers not only became curious about the mystery at the
center of the story, but also about the detective. Part
of the appeal was to see how the other half lived,
(20:32):
and so how did this strange person's brain work and
what was life like for them.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
The detectives become objects of curiosity in themselves.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
Exactly, and that's one of the strengths of novels in general.
They can give you insight into interior lives of people
who aren't like you. But again, in this case, the
detective was defective, right, So there was kind of a
social judgment at work here, sort of like going to
see the quote unquote freaks in a sideshow, right, Like
the genre was simultaneously stoking reader's curiosity while also implying
(21:03):
that curious people were somehow abnormal. Now, curiosity became more
socially acceptable because it gave us cool things like scientific
breakthroughs and detective stories. But even today there's sometimes a
sense of distrust and maybe even disdain for people who
ask too many questions.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
Well, I do want to dig into that because, and
this is going to sound shocking, Mago, but I actually
think the naysayers are onto something here. Curiosity is dangerous.
Speaker 1 (21:29):
Well, you've got some explaining to do after the break,
but before that, we've got a positile some ads. Welcome
(21:50):
back to part time genius. You know, well, I've known
you for a very long time. I didn't think you
could still surprise me. But I was not expecting you
to say that you agree with that old timy idea
that curiosity is actually dangerous.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
All right, Well, let's think this through, right, So, curiosity
without any caution or self restraint can actually do a
lot of harm, Like if a curious kid touches a
hot stove, or if you hear a noise outside your
tent while you're camping go outside to investigate and get
mauled by a bear, that sort of thing. But the
risk go beyond physical danger. For instance, remember we talked
yesterday about deprivation curiosity, and so not knowing something can
(22:25):
create a powerful sense of discomfort, and that can lead
people to behave recklessly in an attempt to resolve that feeling.
So one of the clearest examples of the mental and
emotional toils this can take is in this old Japanese
folk tale called the Crane Wife. It's about a guy
who comes across a wounded crane that's been shot down
by a hunter. He takes pity on the bird, brings
it home, nurses it back to health, and shortly after
(22:48):
he releases it, a woman appears at his door. She's
asking him to marry her. Now. The man says that,
as nice as this sounds, he doesn't have enough money
to support a family, but the woman says, no problem.
She goes to a room, closes the door, comes out
the next day with the most beautiful garment you've ever seen.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
So far, this seems more like a story about the
dangers of a lack of curiosity, right, I would have
so many questions if a stranger showed up claiming to
be my wife and then spent the night sewing some
mysterious garment. Yeah, but this guy just rolls with it.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
I've never told you this is how I met my wife.
This was a fifteenth century, so he probably didn't have
too much else going on. And anyway, the woman tells
him to take the garment to the market, where he's
able to sell it at an insanely high price. So
now they're this thriving, happy couple, and the woman says
she's willing to keep the gravy train going, but on
one condition. She'll continue to make beautiful clothes to support them,
(23:42):
but only if her husband never enters the room while
she's working. Wow, the curiosity here, right. This man agrees
things go well for a while, but eventually his curiosity
gets the better of him, and one night he peeks
inside her.
Speaker 1 (23:56):
Room and based on the title, I'm guessing he sees
the crane.
Speaker 2 (24:00):
That's exactly right. She's been disguised as the woman the
whole time and has been secretly plucking out her own
feathers to make this dazzling clothing. But now she's so
heartbroken that her husband broke his promise that she flies
away and she never comes back.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
That is brutal. So I guess I do see your
point that relentless drive to know things can override everything else,
even our own sense of self protection.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
That's right, and it actually reminds me of something Professor
Bennedict said about the nature of curiosity and the complications
of trying to wield it responsibly.
Speaker 5 (24:32):
Curiosity is fundamentally, as I said before, it's insubordination, it's subversive,
it crosses boundaries. It's no respector of persons peering, peeping, prying.
They're all transgressive, and they're all kind of also, you
might even say imperialistic, because they're assuming the power in
the person who is inquiring. They have the power and
(24:54):
right to invade and to possess your secrets. There have
to be some kind of restraints on inquiry that respect
everybody's rights. But again, you know who's to say that
doesn't just suddenly become a conventional way of oppressing people.
It is a very tricky balancing act.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yeah, I mean, a balancing act is a good way
to think about it, because even deprivation, curiosity can have
some positive applications. The drive to find an answer can
push you to work extra hard and think outside the box,
which may not be the case if you're exploring a
topic just for the fun of it. The flip side
is when you don't really care what the answer is,
so long as you feel like you've found an answer,
(25:36):
meaning what exactly, Well, I keep thinking about something I
read by a psychologist named Charnathan Schooler. He says that
deprivation curiosity is closely tied to intellectual arrogance, and that
when a person seeks an answer simply to avoid not knowing,
they're more likely to accept a wrong answer. And that's
a big danger of fake news, right, Like, if someone
just wants to stop feeling uncertain about a given issue,
(25:58):
then they might settle for a false answer, especially if
it reinforces something they already believe.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
So this is a kind of curiosity that actually makes
you less curious because it convinces you you already have
the answers, even when they might be the wrong ones.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Which is weird, right, But it can be tough to
wrap your head around. So I wanted to go back
to Lindsey, who we heard from earlier. She told me
to something that perfectly encapsulates what I'm talking about.
Speaker 6 (26:22):
I have a cousin who believes that the Earth is flat,
and a lot of people believe that, and I guess
in a conspiracy theory kind of situation, you almost stop
being curious and assign your identity and belief system to
this weird structure that somebody says is how the world is.
(26:47):
And it's almost like your blinders go up and your
curiosity turns off.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
All right, So what's the solution here, how do we
combat that type of mindset.
Speaker 1 (26:56):
Well, the solution to flat eartherism is to go watch
the sunset over the horizon. But when it comes to
navigating the pitfalls of deprivation curiosity, the only real enddot
is to keep an open mind and try to stay humble.
Socrates famously said, the only thing I know for certain
is that I know nothing, and that is such a
healthy frame of mind to have, especially in the information age,
(27:18):
when you can ask AI a question and get an
instant answer, right or wrong.
Speaker 2 (27:23):
Yeah, it's worth mentioning too that material security plays a
role in healthy curiosity. So remember we talked earlier, back
in the Middle Ages, curiosity was pretty much a luxury.
So unfortunately, in some ways that's still true. Studies have
actually shown that while levels of curiosity don't vary by nationality,
they do vary based on economic status. So, for instance,
the Greater Good Society Center at UC Berkeley collected data
(27:45):
about curiosity and people from different backgrounds. Out of the
ten thousand participants, those who earn less than twenty five
thousand dollars a year had lower curiosity scores than all
the other income brackets. So one way to read those
results is that it's hard to stay curious when you're
constantly in survival mode, worrying about bills, how to keep
the roof over your head. And that's something to keep
(28:06):
in mind when you're feeling smug about supposedly having all
the answers. It's a privilege to have the time and
energy to indulge your curiosity, and we squander that away
when we settle for easy, self confirming answers.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
So again, it's about having some intellectual humility and just
like getting comfortable with uncertainty, right, like, the best way
to find common ground is to stay curious about other
people and how they view the world.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
That's exactly right. In fact, Professor Benedict says that being
curious can help us bridge our differences, even in today's
incredibly divided society.
Speaker 5 (28:38):
I think the curiosity in a cultural context leads directly
to tolerance, because you are asking what other people are like,
how they work, what's important to them, what do they eat.
All of that requires the kind of empathetic understanding of otherness,
if you like. So there's no doubt in my mind.
(28:58):
That the respect thankful practice of curiosities. We're bringing people together.
Speaker 1 (29:04):
I love that so much, and I love that phrase,
the respectful practice of curiosity. I like to think that's
what we do with this show.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
Yeah, I would say we're mostly respectful. Mostly.
Speaker 1 (29:15):
Well, our mostly respectful exploration of curiosity will continue tomorrow
when we will be talking about animals. Does your pet
experience curiosity the same way you do? How does being
in captivity affect wild animals and their curiosity? We'll find out,
and I promise not a single dead cat insight.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
All right, Well, that does it for today's episode. Thanks
to Mitra Banshahi for collecting field tape for us. We
appreciate you so much. And thanks to Professor Barbara Benedict
for sharing her expertise. I heard she also showed Gabe
one of the objects in her own collection. It was
a mummified shrew from ancient Egypt. I've never shown gave
my mammified truth from ancient angel, which is just a
(29:53):
bizarre and wonderful thing to have lying around now. Even
if you don't have a mummified true, tell us what
you'd put in your cabinet of curios We're on Instagram
and Blue Sky at part Time Genius. Be sure to
follow us because we've got more activities and giveaways the
rest of this week. We're from Mango, Dylan, Gabe, Mary
and Me. Thanks so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
Part Time Genius is a production of Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio.
This show is hosted by Will Pearson and Me Mongashtikler,
and research by our good pal Mary Philip Sandy. Today's
episode was engineered and produced by the wonderful Dylan Fagan
with support from Tyler Klang. The show is executive produced
for iHeart by Katrina Norvel and Ali Perry, with social
(30:45):
media support from Sasha Gay, trustee Dara Potts and Vine Shory.
For more podcasts from Kaleidoscope and iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
The
Part-Time Genius News
Hosts And Creators
Will Pearson
Mangesh Hattikudur
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