March 8, 2018 • 27 mins
Sean ''Diddy'' Combs is the definition of a mogul. As Chairman and CEO of Combs Enterprises, he has a diverse portfolio of businesses and investments covering the music, fashion, fragrance, beverage, marketing, film, and television industries. Following the release of his 2017 documentary, Can't Stop Won't Stop: A Bad Boy Story; Combs sat down with host Scott Goldman, alongside the doc’s co-producer, Heather Parry, to chat about the making of the film and his musical legacy.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, the
executive director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the
Clive Davis Theater, I have the privilege of talking to
great music artists and great executives about their careers, about
their motivations, their inspirations, what goes in to making great
music and bringing great music to the public. That's what
(00:23):
Required Listening is all about. I want to share these
conversations with you now. Last week we heard an old
school discussion on the art of making records with Clive
Davis and baby Face and Kenny Edmonds, and believe it
or not, Clive Davis is very much in the mix
(00:43):
in the conversation that I had with p Diddy and
Heather Perry. Now, Diddy visited the Grammy Museum on the
evening that we screened the documentary Can't Stop, Won't Stop,
a Bad Boys Story. The documentary was produced by Live
Nation Film Holmes, and we were joined by Heather Perry,
who produced the project with Diddy. The film looks at
(01:05):
Diddy's career through the lens of a bad boy reunion
show that he's putting together, but it's very much a
reflection on the combination of street smarts, incredibly hard work,
a remarkable work ethic, and mentorship that really got him
to where he is today. And to tie it back,
one of his most significant mentors and business partners was
(01:27):
Clive Davis. So let's go to the Clive Davis Theater
and listen to my conversation with Heather Perry and p Diddy. First,
allow me to introduce the head of Live Nation Productions
and the producer Tonight's film, Heather Perry. Hello, Heather, thank
(01:48):
you for being hereing on microphones and all kinds of
stuff here, yeah right, there will be great. And the
founder of bad Boy Records and CEO of Bad Boy Enterprises,
Seawan Diddy Combs, come on. Thank you everybody, Thank you
very much. That is a terrific piece of work. A
(02:13):
terrific piece of work. Thank you. And you know, I
had this whole plan for this discussion which I am
now going to throw out now that I've seen this again,
because I want to start at the end, and you
made it. You made a choice to use Nina Simone
at the penultimate moment of this film where you're doing
the show. It's great, it's big, it's everything. I think
(02:36):
that you would want it to be, and yet you
chose to use Nina Simone's music. Tell me why. Um,
you know, I think through the process, she really became
my theme. Um. What I was kind of selfishly searching
for was to feel that freedom. You know, I didn't
(02:59):
know how long, how many more times I would have
the chance to even be on the stage. Um was
I never planned doing doing it, you know, Um till
I to like make I didn't plan. I don't like
make Jack or anything like that. So I knew it
was like you know, it was it was maybe coming
to a point where I need to be honest, and UM,
(03:22):
I wanted us all to like feel that feeling of freedom.
And so because she was such a big part of
the theme of the preparation, you know, the director knew
I really loved the music and I was always like
just playing her voice. And one day he said to me,
I have something that's really beautiful. And because I just
kind of described that, you know, I want the performance
(03:44):
to be different than you're a regular like concert doc
or anything like that, and he kind of showed me
the cut of it, and you know the way it
translated to me, it was it was everything that you
feel on stage. It was the best way to kind
of kind of I think, showcase the feeling and emotion.
So we picked the feeling and emotion over the traditional
(04:07):
way of just kind of showing the constant because it
it gave you the feeling, you know, and that's something
that that our music is about, is given that feelings.
So I always get the first respect to the feeling.
So that's why we chose that direction. Yeah, there's a
sense of struggle and a sense of triumph that comes
at the end. And you you mentioned that the director,
(04:30):
um Daniel Kaufman, he described the film as a fierce
and I love this quote, a fierce pursuit of the
American dream. How do you guys describe How do you
describe the film? If you had to sum it up
in a sentence, how would you describe it. I'm gonna
let you go first. I was I was gonna say,
(04:51):
I think the title is so appropriate of cancer won't stop,
because puff literally doesn't stop, doesn't take no for an answer.
So I would sum it up as it's it's a
beautiful legendary history of a man that just doesn't quit
and just doesn't take no for the answer, and I
think that is the American dream. For me watching it
wasn't it was intense. You know, it's just like my
(05:14):
whole life, and and it was it was kind of trippy,
and you know, he gave me a sense of pride
to you know. But for me, it was it was
just kind of like, that's what the movie meant to
me personally, what you've been quoted as saying, it was
kind of like watching your life flash before your eyes. Yes, definitely, definitely,
But as as Daniel Corfman said, the director, it really
(05:36):
just really shows the embodiment of the dream and the hustle,
and you get to see that the way a unfiltered lens.
When when did Heather, When did you get involved in
the in the process here? What was the chronology? Um? Well,
I've known. I started working at MTV when I was
twenty one, and that's when I met Puff and so
here we are many many, Well two decades later, many many.
(06:00):
That's bad. You didn't have to say, but yeah, um
um but uh. And I started working at Live Nation
and I started the Live Nation productions and they said,
you know, we're going to do this Bad Boy Reunion tour.
And so I had seen puff Out and I started
just I go, we got to do this together. And
he came in the office for a meeting about the tour,
(06:21):
and he actually called me into the meeting. He's like,
should we do this? So we moved at lightning speed.
We decided to do it. And we had had like
three weeks to find a director and put it on
it and go wow, well and and and the one
thing I will say about this, and you know, look,
there have been plenty of artists who have done all
kinds of documentaries about their life and work, and no
(06:42):
pun intended here, oftentimes they are puff pieces. I mean
they're they're meant to, you know, sort of build up
the brand or build up the artist in you know,
in some semi contrived way. There's a lot of stuff
in here that is not necessarily positive, you know, you
know what I mean. I mean, it's their struggle here. Um.
And I'm wondering for you as you you put this together,
(07:06):
was that hard for you? Was that hard for you
to deal with the parts of your career? And and
the thing you know going through this that we're not
necessarily so easy or great. I think some of my
biggest records are hits. Of success has been when the
artist is able to be vulnerable. And um so I
(07:28):
knew if I was gonna step out in this type
of medium, then I'm a big documentary fan and I
want to get some emotion out of a documentary. Um So,
I don't like those puff pieces of the things that
kind of like self serving. And I just wanted to
tell the truth. And I think it came out that
way because I didn't direct it. You know, somebody somebody
(07:49):
else directed it and shot in it. And I basically said,
I'm just gonna I'm gonna trust you and I'm gonna
go with the flow. And so that's what also happens
when you work with great people and you trust another artist.
So you know, the one thing Daniel also talked about,
um your work ethic and and how you you push
people to be their best and and I'm wondering what
(08:11):
the collaborative relationship was between between you and Daniel. How
did you push him or did you push him? Oh? Yeah,
I'm pushing. I mean to to me, it's about telling
the story. I'm gonna if I'm gonna be from I'm
gonna show a documentary I want to make sure that, um,
(08:32):
he treated it like a feature film and not like
a documentary. And he told his story that wasn't so
linear because I don't think that way. So that's why
it's like jumping all over the place. And he kind
of gave that that reflection of what he really saw.
But I kept we kept on pushing and pushing, and
you know, I wanted to be disruptive and you know,
(08:53):
for to click on and off and everything like that,
and he kind of got it. He kind of got that,
you know, the way to really get into my mind,
the way it thinks. In this way, it's all little
bit of place. Did he push you, Yes, but in
a good way, in the best way. So I mean
he just he challenges you to be your best, you know,
(09:14):
and sometimes it's rough, but it's always worth it. And
when we're shooting the doc it's a lot of long
hours and people are really tired, but it's it's all
the stuff that's in there is so real and raw,
and that's why it's not a puff piece, you know,
as you say, it's it's a real film. And you know,
(09:35):
as you mentioned, you're you've had long experience MTV. The
music industry. How did that experience serve you in terms
of starting this production company? And we talked earlier. You
guys did a terrific job with that Eagles of Death
Metal record record film UM about their return to the
Botto Klon. How does your background kind of help you
(09:59):
create this environment for these kinds of films. Yeah, well
I started. I started working at MTV when I was
twenty one and I worked there for twelve years, so
I sort of got those great golden years of MTV
and I ran the West Coast office of MTV News.
So and at that time, like MTV covered music like
CNN was covering war. So we just every weekend I
was on a plane and interviewing somebody and producing something. Um.
(10:23):
You know, I got to know Puff there and I
told the story before. But it's really funny that, you know,
we had the Video Music Awards every year, we had
a pre show and there was like they book it
really quick and there wasn't another space, and Puff was like,
you have to make another space, and they they stupidly
were like, okay, well we have two spaces. We know
three spaces. In the middle of the live show, here
(10:44):
comes Puff on a flatbed truck performing anyways. So I knew, like,
that's a guy like I want on my side, I
want on my tea, I want to work by him.
So so you know, I think I think I took
all of that knowledge of of who he is, and
you know, in in starting Live Nation productions, I want
(11:05):
to be really careful about the message we were sending
because Live Nation, you know, represents lots of artists and
does lots of tours, and I very carefully thought out
that I don't want these to be puff pieces or
ep K press kits. So the first film which you mentioned,
Eagles a Death Metal we did, which was about their
journey back to Paris after the attacks, and I was
friends with Colin Hanks and I knew he was going
(11:26):
to do it, and I was like, we have to
do this together, and we have to send that message
when life knocks you down, you get back up and
you don't quit and you keep going. I think that
was very important for our first dog, Thank you, Thank You.
And then this Dock was number two, and I knew
I believe, I believe in him, like I knew that
it was going to be real, and that was important
to me to set up to the audience, to the industry,
(11:46):
to everybody that this is this is the type of
work we're gonna do. There's something that you talk about
a couple of times in the film, and you talk
about messages that struck me and really stood out, and
and that's the concept of black excellence and always aspiring
to black excellence. Talk a little bit about that that
and why that was important to make sure that you
(12:09):
brought it out in the film. Well, Um, through the journey,
you know, I was I was always having to deal
with a narrative that somebody else had kind of put
out there, um for my life to go. And you know,
(12:30):
I wondered, I wanted to change the narrative just in
general of of how hip hop is perceived and also
we as Black men and women, how we're how we're
perceived based on like what we see through media or
the the the constant images of negativity that we see.
I wanted to change narrative and showed a new narrative
(12:53):
of strength of black, strength of black excellence, of of
of shining a positive light on the positive things that
we do, the magic that we have, the brilliance that
we have, and do it in an unapologetic way, and
so that's how I've lived my life. And I think
it was a theme also of just our style and
(13:13):
swag as bad Boy was, you know, is and always
will be, have that black excellence vibe, always breaking records,
always trotting new territory and um so it's really like
putting a spotlight on that magic there. There there's a
couple of stylistic choices in the in the film that
that that I have to ask you about the past,
(13:35):
and this seems to be reversed to me. The past
is in color and the present is in black and white,
which normally it would it would be reversed. Why make
that choice. It was during the time, like you know,
my whole look visually on my Instagram and then like
the little shorts that I do was all in black
and white, and you know, I think the director kind
(13:56):
of picked up up on that, but it was his
just creativity of utilizing how I kind of saw my
life sometimes in black and white and in color, and
you know, these are all like his brilliant ideas and
translations of how he saw me. So it's there because
(14:16):
I didn't Um, I didn't direct the movie I'm not
sure what it would have been. It may have been
a four D or something. I would have probably overdid it.
It had a bad abody with the forty glasses and like,
really it's super cool. I mean, yeah, I love it.
(14:36):
I love the way that the whole thing looks. I
want to say we purposely wanted to shake up the
music documentary game because I felt like we as artists,
we have deeper stories to tell them. Okay, we're just
getting there, we're just going on tour, or okay, just
follow me, I'm making an album. You know, that's kind
of boring to me. I want to get into the
to the nitty gritty. I want to get into, like
(14:57):
I want to see everything I want to see. I've
invested in these artists, you invested in bad Boy, and
so I just wanted to tell the truth uncut, but
do it in a way where our lives are so crazy.
They're like, you know, you could look at yourself shooting
a documentary, and I always told him I'm not shooting
a documentary. I I'm a feature film type. Motherfucker? Did
(15:21):
he did? He remind you of that? He reminded us
not to be ordinary, and that to keep everybody's attention,
stand like, you know, standing and on their toes. So yeah,
why it's it's actually interesting that that you chose this
reunion to tell a much larger story. Was that always
the intention or did you get into it and realized, whoa,
wait a minute, there's something much bigger here. Yes, yes,
(15:45):
we we definitely just intended to do something around the reunion,
but as we spend time with each other, it was
so much growth and so many unanswered questions, unh had
conversations that all of that started to happen just naturally.
And the way we shot it Um I told him
that they can't really shoot it the way they you know,
(16:06):
shoot a schedule of a regular um documentary. So that
that's when me and Heather we get into it because
I was I was just gonna say, and how much
did that drive you crazy? Heather? It did? It didn't
drive me crazy. We definitely had moments, but again it's
it's you know, you do it for the good of
the film, And so I think it was we were
in rehearsals and you saw all these this family reuniting,
(16:30):
and there were these stories to tell, and and puff
had the vision from when he was, you know, sixteen seventeen,
you started filming yourself. So it's like, wait, we're all
and I remember my mtvd is it always seem with
the camera, So it's like, where's all that stuff? And
he remembered all these great gems and we would find
all these great pieces, and people in the bad Boy
family and and the Bad Boy Offices were like, wait,
there's this piece of footage. So um that was a
(16:52):
very like collaborative effort. And one thing I gotta say,
wherever you were hurst that out in Pennsylvania did they
land that that? That's like they landed that. Hehearstal stage
on the Moon, by the way, said in the middle
of nowhere. It literally they said, there's this big black
box in the middle of nowhere. And I was like
driving and I got there a couple of days later
than Puff and literally it was like no joke. There's
(17:12):
like it's in Pennsylvania and there's an Amish horse and
buggy going and then I see it looks like a
motorcate it's like black as SUVs. And then I see
Puff in like a sweat shiny sweatsuit on his bike,
like riding to work. And I don't. I don't think
that town has ever been the same. But it was
a plastic bag. And the one thing, you know, the
(17:33):
one thing about doing this, some of these people had
not seen each other, correct me if I'm wrong for
sixteen or seventeen years. Did you have well you must
have been wondering, oh my god, how is this going
to work out? Yeah? I was definitely like a night
what's about the goal here? I was like, you'll just
need to keep these cameras rolling. It's gonna be interest
(17:56):
with their particular people that you were concerned about without
calling it anybody out, you know, But no, I wasn't.
I know everybody. Everybody was always like, you know, respectful.
So I knew that if they would come in, they
would they were coming to get along and then get together.
But I would just I just wanted to see it
naturally unfold, you know. I really just kind of stand back.
(18:16):
I let everybody have their own relationships, but um, yeah,
I wanted to see how little Kim and Faith was
gonna end up. And it was overwhelming, because you know,
to get a chance to do that, or to even
have something a film like this, you know why you're
still happy and alive and like young and feeling good.
(18:37):
It's it's a blessing, you know, because usually it may
happen when you're not here something. So to get together
with your family and the people you have the dream
with and to be able to just like sit there
and look at like this is what we were able
to do with our lives and we're still here, you know, together,
It's it'sn't truly a blessing and incredible and and still
(18:58):
creating and still evolving, you know, in a positive way. Um,
as you look back, you know, especially in light in
light of the film, are there moments that stand out
for you? Or whether it's on stage or in the studio.
I mean, you know, it's twenty years or more since
(19:21):
No Way Out. If you had to think of one thing,
what stands out for you? Mm hmm, just one thing? Yeah,
I mean you could list ten, I'm sure, or or
I would I would say, as it pertains that it
is the look on people's faces, because you know, people
(19:45):
get to look at me, but I also get to
look at everybody else. And so it's the joy that
these records bring and you see on people's faces. It's
a different type of vibes. It's it's like it's all teeth.
Everybody's like hands in the air, and it's just like
to be able to have the power to give people
(20:05):
that type of like soulful good feeling like cook out.
We all are here together, vibe is special, especial to
see so many people smiling. And I just remember, you know,
just every anytime I would go out, it's just that
feeling of just you know, coming about the ground and
seeing people's faces like you know, it's it's they're they're
(20:29):
being entertained. And and there's there's one there's an emotional
thread that runs through and that's Biggie uh in your
relationship with him. And it strikes me just you know,
as an observer that in an emotional sense, this was
arguably the most important part of the film. What was
(20:51):
your relationship with him important to you to make sure
that that God expressed correctly. I guess I guess that's
so I'm I'm so honest with that that I guess
I never worry about that part because it's that's just
the way it is. It's not I'm not putting on
for the cameras or like, let me talk about Biggie
(21:12):
right here to have it happens. That's just the way
it is. It's, um, you know, such an important figure
in my life and the life of the artists, and
I think he's respected and honored in the right way.
It feels like, you know, like like a brother that
was lost and you just really, you know, really really
keeping his spirit alive. I mean, his spirit is just
(21:34):
a live through us anyway, but it's something that that
kind of fuels us and Heather, we you know, we've
been talking about kind of the cultural relevance of of
a Bad Boy in the artists and and the legacy. Um,
why is it important for your company to tell these
kind of culturally relevant stories. There's all kinds of stories
(21:56):
that you could tell. Why. I mean, I think I
listened to the audience, you know, and I for me,
I I came up in my career watching everything Bad Boy,
and I saw the things and everything was a great
story about them. So I don't I look for when
I'm trying to do something, I look for what's the
(22:16):
great storytelling moment of it? So this to me was
was that. And and by the way, when we were like,
my favorite moment of the whole process is like we're
sitting in the mix puff and I and the sound
mixer was ahead of us. We're sitting there alone. And
he would look at the end of the movie, he'd
be so happy and he'd be like, I can't believe
this is my life. And you look at that one
part with you and Biggie and you're like, I can't
believe I'm alive. Like this is like every time he
(22:39):
watched that part, he was so moved. And that for
me as a producer is the vindication that I want
because it's real. And when you get that reaction that's
so raw from an artist, that that's where I want
to live, right. Um. You've talked often because you you're
not just a label owner, You're an entrepreneur. You are
(22:59):
in me your lifestyle. You did with vodka, with this,
with this stuff as well. Um, and you've talked often
about building a team and the importance of having a
team around you. Tell us a little bit about how
you came to that philosophy where you learned that. I
(23:21):
would say, you know, I was driving myself crazy because
I was as at a certain point I was such
a control freak that, Um, you know I was getting
overwhelmed and and I had to in order for me
to go to another level, I had to had to
know that I had to trust other people. And it's
(23:43):
kind of hard, you know, for you to trust people.
But when you put good people around you and you
and you trust them and you motivate them, I think,
I think you get more out of a situation than
whatever fears and insecurities I had about trust. So I
just knew I needed to in order to go to
another level. It wasn't going to be about me. It
(24:04):
was going to be about we and a team that
I had around me. Yeah, and as your building a
relatively new company a couple of years old, what did
you learn from working with him? Um? So much but
but just um persistence and that you don't have to
(24:24):
agree with someone for stuff to be great. And that's
when the best that's when the best part of the
process comes out. That everybody has an opinion that's valuable
to bring to the table. So, you know, Puff taught
me when we would show the movie, we would show assistance,
we would show we would show anybody that was sitting.
We wanted feedback of what people were feeling because the
audience was really important to us. Last question, When you
(24:47):
were a boy, did this dream of the life that
you've lived It seemed possible. Yes, And when you when
when you were young and imagining where you would go,
what were the kinds of things you were thinking about.
(25:08):
I was thinking about everything that that my life has
turned out to be. And I would say it's true manifestation,
you know, just to empower that in you, but not
saying like I knew it all. But you know it's
I knew that this would happen. Well, it's it's I
think we all do know. I think we all do inside.
(25:29):
I just think I just embraced that. Yeah, it's a
remarkable film. Can't stop on stop a Bad Boys story.
I get the feeling the story is continuing and we
look forward to many additional chapters. But many thanks to
Heather Perry and Sean Collins for being here. Thank you
very much, Thank you so much. Thank you all for
(25:51):
your time. Thank you very much. As much as he's
known as a force on his own, it's really interesting
to hear did he describe the importance of putting the
right team around him? You know, so many, so many executives,
so many superstars. They're kind of at the top of
the pyramid and people look at them in that Mount
Rushmore kind of way. But he very much was willing
(26:14):
to recognize those around him and how they help him
be as successful as he is, and of course the
idea that you can push people to get the absolute
best from them, and how you go about doing that
in a way that doesn't ultimately demean or diminish them.
(26:35):
So that's your required listening for today, and from Clive
Davis to Ditty and looking forward, we've got great young
songwriters and a tribute to a legendary artist will be
coming to you every week on Required Listening. Let's keep
the conversation going on all the social platforms at Grammy Museum.
If you're coming to Los Angeles, well, I hope you'll
(26:56):
plan a visit to the Grammy Museum. All the information
on our exhibits, our activity, our programs is at our
website Grammy museum dot org. Shout out to the team
that makes Required Listening happen. Jason James, Kittrick, Kern's Callie Wiseman,
Jim Cannella, Lynn Sheridan, Miranda Moore, Justin, Joseph Jason Hoke,
Chandler Maze, Nick Stump, and everyone at How Stuff Works.
(27:16):
Until next time, I'm Scott Boldman.
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, the
executive director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the
Clive Davis Theater, I have the privilege of talking to
great music artists and great executives about their careers, about
their motivations, their inspirations, what goes in to making great
music and bringing great music to the public. That's what
(00:23):
Required Listening is all about. I want to share these
conversations with you now. Last week we heard an old
school discussion on the art of making records with Clive
Davis and baby Face and Kenny Edmonds, and believe it
or not, Clive Davis is very much in the mix
(00:43):
in the conversation that I had with p Diddy and
Heather Perry. Now, Diddy visited the Grammy Museum on the
evening that we screened the documentary Can't Stop, Won't Stop,
a Bad Boys Story. The documentary was produced by Live
Nation Film Holmes, and we were joined by Heather Perry,
who produced the project with Diddy. The film looks at
(01:05):
Diddy's career through the lens of a bad boy reunion
show that he's putting together, but it's very much a
reflection on the combination of street smarts, incredibly hard work,
a remarkable work ethic, and mentorship that really got him
to where he is today. And to tie it back,
one of his most significant mentors and business partners was
(01:27):
Clive Davis. So let's go to the Clive Davis Theater
and listen to my conversation with Heather Perry and p Diddy. First,
allow me to introduce the head of Live Nation Productions
and the producer Tonight's film, Heather Perry. Hello, Heather, thank
(01:48):
you for being hereing on microphones and all kinds of
stuff here, yeah right, there will be great. And the
founder of bad Boy Records and CEO of Bad Boy Enterprises,
Seawan Diddy Combs, come on. Thank you everybody, Thank you
very much. That is a terrific piece of work. A
(02:13):
terrific piece of work. Thank you. And you know, I
had this whole plan for this discussion which I am
now going to throw out now that I've seen this again,
because I want to start at the end, and you
made it. You made a choice to use Nina Simone
at the penultimate moment of this film where you're doing
the show. It's great, it's big, it's everything. I think
(02:36):
that you would want it to be, and yet you
chose to use Nina Simone's music. Tell me why. Um,
you know, I think through the process, she really became
my theme. Um. What I was kind of selfishly searching
for was to feel that freedom. You know, I didn't
(02:59):
know how long, how many more times I would have
the chance to even be on the stage. Um was
I never planned doing doing it, you know, Um till
I to like make I didn't plan. I don't like
make Jack or anything like that. So I knew it
was like you know, it was it was maybe coming
to a point where I need to be honest, and UM,
(03:22):
I wanted us all to like feel that feeling of freedom.
And so because she was such a big part of
the theme of the preparation, you know, the director knew
I really loved the music and I was always like
just playing her voice. And one day he said to me,
I have something that's really beautiful. And because I just
kind of described that, you know, I want the performance
(03:44):
to be different than you're a regular like concert doc
or anything like that, and he kind of showed me
the cut of it, and you know the way it
translated to me, it was it was everything that you
feel on stage. It was the best way to kind
of kind of I think, showcase the feeling and emotion.
So we picked the feeling and emotion over the traditional
(04:07):
way of just kind of showing the constant because it
it gave you the feeling, you know, and that's something
that that our music is about, is given that feelings.
So I always get the first respect to the feeling.
So that's why we chose that direction. Yeah, there's a
sense of struggle and a sense of triumph that comes
at the end. And you you mentioned that the director,
(04:30):
um Daniel Kaufman, he described the film as a fierce
and I love this quote, a fierce pursuit of the
American dream. How do you guys describe How do you
describe the film? If you had to sum it up
in a sentence, how would you describe it. I'm gonna
let you go first. I was I was gonna say,
(04:51):
I think the title is so appropriate of cancer won't stop,
because puff literally doesn't stop, doesn't take no for an answer.
So I would sum it up as it's it's a
beautiful legendary history of a man that just doesn't quit
and just doesn't take no for the answer, and I
think that is the American dream. For me watching it
wasn't it was intense. You know, it's just like my
(05:14):
whole life, and and it was it was kind of trippy,
and you know, he gave me a sense of pride
to you know. But for me, it was it was
just kind of like, that's what the movie meant to
me personally, what you've been quoted as saying, it was
kind of like watching your life flash before your eyes. Yes, definitely, definitely,
But as as Daniel Corfman said, the director, it really
(05:36):
just really shows the embodiment of the dream and the hustle,
and you get to see that the way a unfiltered lens.
When when did Heather, When did you get involved in
the in the process here? What was the chronology? Um? Well,
I've known. I started working at MTV when I was
twenty one, and that's when I met Puff and so
here we are many many, Well two decades later, many many.
(06:00):
That's bad. You didn't have to say, but yeah, um
um but uh. And I started working at Live Nation
and I started the Live Nation productions and they said,
you know, we're going to do this Bad Boy Reunion tour.
And so I had seen puff Out and I started
just I go, we got to do this together. And
he came in the office for a meeting about the tour,
(06:21):
and he actually called me into the meeting. He's like,
should we do this? So we moved at lightning speed.
We decided to do it. And we had had like
three weeks to find a director and put it on
it and go wow, well and and and the one
thing I will say about this, and you know, look,
there have been plenty of artists who have done all
kinds of documentaries about their life and work, and no
(06:42):
pun intended here, oftentimes they are puff pieces. I mean
they're they're meant to, you know, sort of build up
the brand or build up the artist in you know,
in some semi contrived way. There's a lot of stuff
in here that is not necessarily positive, you know, you
know what I mean. I mean, it's their struggle here. Um.
And I'm wondering for you as you you put this together,
(07:06):
was that hard for you? Was that hard for you
to deal with the parts of your career? And and
the thing you know going through this that we're not
necessarily so easy or great. I think some of my
biggest records are hits. Of success has been when the
artist is able to be vulnerable. And um so I
(07:28):
knew if I was gonna step out in this type
of medium, then I'm a big documentary fan and I
want to get some emotion out of a documentary. Um So,
I don't like those puff pieces of the things that
kind of like self serving. And I just wanted to
tell the truth. And I think it came out that
way because I didn't direct it. You know, somebody somebody
(07:49):
else directed it and shot in it. And I basically said,
I'm just gonna I'm gonna trust you and I'm gonna
go with the flow. And so that's what also happens
when you work with great people and you trust another artist.
So you know, the one thing Daniel also talked about,
um your work ethic and and how you you push
people to be their best and and I'm wondering what
(08:11):
the collaborative relationship was between between you and Daniel. How
did you push him or did you push him? Oh? Yeah,
I'm pushing. I mean to to me, it's about telling
the story. I'm gonna if I'm gonna be from I'm
gonna show a documentary I want to make sure that, um,
(08:32):
he treated it like a feature film and not like
a documentary. And he told his story that wasn't so
linear because I don't think that way. So that's why
it's like jumping all over the place. And he kind
of gave that that reflection of what he really saw.
But I kept we kept on pushing and pushing, and
you know, I wanted to be disruptive and you know,
(08:53):
for to click on and off and everything like that,
and he kind of got it. He kind of got that,
you know, the way to really get into my mind,
the way it thinks. In this way, it's all little
bit of place. Did he push you, Yes, but in
a good way, in the best way. So I mean
he just he challenges you to be your best, you know,
(09:14):
and sometimes it's rough, but it's always worth it. And
when we're shooting the doc it's a lot of long
hours and people are really tired, but it's it's all
the stuff that's in there is so real and raw,
and that's why it's not a puff piece, you know,
as you say, it's it's a real film. And you know,
(09:35):
as you mentioned, you're you've had long experience MTV. The
music industry. How did that experience serve you in terms
of starting this production company? And we talked earlier. You
guys did a terrific job with that Eagles of Death
Metal record record film UM about their return to the
Botto Klon. How does your background kind of help you
(09:59):
create this environment for these kinds of films. Yeah, well
I started. I started working at MTV when I was
twenty one and I worked there for twelve years, so
I sort of got those great golden years of MTV
and I ran the West Coast office of MTV News.
So and at that time, like MTV covered music like
CNN was covering war. So we just every weekend I
was on a plane and interviewing somebody and producing something. Um.
(10:23):
You know, I got to know Puff there and I
told the story before. But it's really funny that, you know,
we had the Video Music Awards every year, we had
a pre show and there was like they book it
really quick and there wasn't another space, and Puff was like,
you have to make another space, and they they stupidly
were like, okay, well we have two spaces. We know
three spaces. In the middle of the live show, here
(10:44):
comes Puff on a flatbed truck performing anyways. So I knew, like,
that's a guy like I want on my side, I
want on my tea, I want to work by him.
So so you know, I think I think I took
all of that knowledge of of who he is, and
you know, in in starting Live Nation productions, I want
(11:05):
to be really careful about the message we were sending
because Live Nation, you know, represents lots of artists and
does lots of tours, and I very carefully thought out
that I don't want these to be puff pieces or
ep K press kits. So the first film which you mentioned,
Eagles a Death Metal we did, which was about their
journey back to Paris after the attacks, and I was
friends with Colin Hanks and I knew he was going
(11:26):
to do it, and I was like, we have to
do this together, and we have to send that message
when life knocks you down, you get back up and
you don't quit and you keep going. I think that
was very important for our first dog, Thank you, Thank You.
And then this Dock was number two, and I knew
I believe, I believe in him, like I knew that
it was going to be real, and that was important
to me to set up to the audience, to the industry,
(11:46):
to everybody that this is this is the type of
work we're gonna do. There's something that you talk about
a couple of times in the film, and you talk
about messages that struck me and really stood out, and
and that's the concept of black excellence and always aspiring
to black excellence. Talk a little bit about that that
and why that was important to make sure that you
(12:09):
brought it out in the film. Well, Um, through the journey,
you know, I was I was always having to deal
with a narrative that somebody else had kind of put
out there, um for my life to go. And you know,
(12:30):
I wondered, I wanted to change the narrative just in
general of of how hip hop is perceived and also
we as Black men and women, how we're how we're
perceived based on like what we see through media or
the the the constant images of negativity that we see.
I wanted to change narrative and showed a new narrative
(12:53):
of strength of black, strength of black excellence, of of
of shining a positive light on the positive things that
we do, the magic that we have, the brilliance that
we have, and do it in an unapologetic way, and
so that's how I've lived my life. And I think
it was a theme also of just our style and
(13:13):
swag as bad Boy was, you know, is and always
will be, have that black excellence vibe, always breaking records,
always trotting new territory and um so it's really like
putting a spotlight on that magic there. There there's a
couple of stylistic choices in the in the film that
that that I have to ask you about the past,
(13:35):
and this seems to be reversed to me. The past
is in color and the present is in black and white,
which normally it would it would be reversed. Why make
that choice. It was during the time, like you know,
my whole look visually on my Instagram and then like
the little shorts that I do was all in black
and white, and you know, I think the director kind
(13:56):
of picked up up on that, but it was his
just creativity of utilizing how I kind of saw my
life sometimes in black and white and in color, and
you know, these are all like his brilliant ideas and
translations of how he saw me. So it's there because
(14:16):
I didn't Um, I didn't direct the movie I'm not
sure what it would have been. It may have been
a four D or something. I would have probably overdid it.
It had a bad abody with the forty glasses and like,
really it's super cool. I mean, yeah, I love it.
(14:36):
I love the way that the whole thing looks. I
want to say we purposely wanted to shake up the
music documentary game because I felt like we as artists,
we have deeper stories to tell them. Okay, we're just
getting there, we're just going on tour, or okay, just
follow me, I'm making an album. You know, that's kind
of boring to me. I want to get into the
to the nitty gritty. I want to get into, like
(14:57):
I want to see everything I want to see. I've
invested in these artists, you invested in bad Boy, and
so I just wanted to tell the truth uncut, but
do it in a way where our lives are so crazy.
They're like, you know, you could look at yourself shooting
a documentary, and I always told him I'm not shooting
a documentary. I I'm a feature film type. Motherfucker? Did
(15:21):
he did? He remind you of that? He reminded us
not to be ordinary, and that to keep everybody's attention,
stand like, you know, standing and on their toes. So yeah,
why it's it's actually interesting that that you chose this
reunion to tell a much larger story. Was that always
the intention or did you get into it and realized, whoa,
wait a minute, there's something much bigger here. Yes, yes,
(15:45):
we we definitely just intended to do something around the reunion,
but as we spend time with each other, it was
so much growth and so many unanswered questions, unh had
conversations that all of that started to happen just naturally.
And the way we shot it Um I told him
that they can't really shoot it the way they you know,
(16:06):
shoot a schedule of a regular um documentary. So that
that's when me and Heather we get into it because
I was I was just gonna say, and how much
did that drive you crazy? Heather? It did? It didn't
drive me crazy. We definitely had moments, but again it's
it's you know, you do it for the good of
the film, And so I think it was we were
in rehearsals and you saw all these this family reuniting,
(16:30):
and there were these stories to tell, and and puff
had the vision from when he was, you know, sixteen seventeen,
you started filming yourself. So it's like, wait, we're all
and I remember my mtvd is it always seem with
the camera, So it's like, where's all that stuff? And
he remembered all these great gems and we would find
all these great pieces, and people in the bad Boy
family and and the Bad Boy Offices were like, wait,
there's this piece of footage. So um that was a
(16:52):
very like collaborative effort. And one thing I gotta say,
wherever you were hurst that out in Pennsylvania did they
land that that? That's like they landed that. Hehearstal stage
on the Moon, by the way, said in the middle
of nowhere. It literally they said, there's this big black
box in the middle of nowhere. And I was like
driving and I got there a couple of days later
than Puff and literally it was like no joke. There's
(17:12):
like it's in Pennsylvania and there's an Amish horse and
buggy going and then I see it looks like a
motorcate it's like black as SUVs. And then I see
Puff in like a sweat shiny sweatsuit on his bike,
like riding to work. And I don't. I don't think
that town has ever been the same. But it was
a plastic bag. And the one thing, you know, the
(17:33):
one thing about doing this, some of these people had
not seen each other, correct me if I'm wrong for
sixteen or seventeen years. Did you have well you must
have been wondering, oh my god, how is this going
to work out? Yeah? I was definitely like a night
what's about the goal here? I was like, you'll just
need to keep these cameras rolling. It's gonna be interest
(17:56):
with their particular people that you were concerned about without
calling it anybody out, you know, But no, I wasn't.
I know everybody. Everybody was always like, you know, respectful.
So I knew that if they would come in, they
would they were coming to get along and then get together.
But I would just I just wanted to see it
naturally unfold, you know. I really just kind of stand back.
(18:16):
I let everybody have their own relationships, but um, yeah,
I wanted to see how little Kim and Faith was
gonna end up. And it was overwhelming, because you know,
to get a chance to do that, or to even
have something a film like this, you know why you're
still happy and alive and like young and feeling good.
(18:37):
It's it's a blessing, you know, because usually it may
happen when you're not here something. So to get together
with your family and the people you have the dream
with and to be able to just like sit there
and look at like this is what we were able
to do with our lives and we're still here, you know, together,
It's it'sn't truly a blessing and incredible and and still
(18:58):
creating and still evolving, you know, in a positive way. Um,
as you look back, you know, especially in light in
light of the film, are there moments that stand out
for you? Or whether it's on stage or in the studio.
I mean, you know, it's twenty years or more since
(19:21):
No Way Out. If you had to think of one thing,
what stands out for you? Mm hmm, just one thing? Yeah,
I mean you could list ten, I'm sure, or or
I would I would say, as it pertains that it
is the look on people's faces, because you know, people
(19:45):
get to look at me, but I also get to
look at everybody else. And so it's the joy that
these records bring and you see on people's faces. It's
a different type of vibes. It's it's like it's all teeth.
Everybody's like hands in the air, and it's just like
to be able to have the power to give people
(20:05):
that type of like soulful good feeling like cook out.
We all are here together, vibe is special, especial to
see so many people smiling. And I just remember, you know,
just every anytime I would go out, it's just that
feeling of just you know, coming about the ground and
seeing people's faces like you know, it's it's they're they're
(20:29):
being entertained. And and there's there's one there's an emotional
thread that runs through and that's Biggie uh in your
relationship with him. And it strikes me just you know,
as an observer that in an emotional sense, this was
arguably the most important part of the film. What was
(20:51):
your relationship with him important to you to make sure
that that God expressed correctly. I guess I guess that's
so I'm I'm so honest with that that I guess
I never worry about that part because it's that's just
the way it is. It's not I'm not putting on
for the cameras or like, let me talk about Biggie
(21:12):
right here to have it happens. That's just the way
it is. It's, um, you know, such an important figure
in my life and the life of the artists, and
I think he's respected and honored in the right way.
It feels like, you know, like like a brother that
was lost and you just really, you know, really really
keeping his spirit alive. I mean, his spirit is just
(21:34):
a live through us anyway, but it's something that that
kind of fuels us and Heather, we you know, we've
been talking about kind of the cultural relevance of of
a Bad Boy in the artists and and the legacy. Um,
why is it important for your company to tell these
kind of culturally relevant stories. There's all kinds of stories
(21:56):
that you could tell. Why. I mean, I think I
listened to the audience, you know, and I for me,
I I came up in my career watching everything Bad Boy,
and I saw the things and everything was a great
story about them. So I don't I look for when
I'm trying to do something, I look for what's the
(22:16):
great storytelling moment of it? So this to me was
was that. And and by the way, when we were like,
my favorite moment of the whole process is like we're
sitting in the mix puff and I and the sound
mixer was ahead of us. We're sitting there alone. And
he would look at the end of the movie, he'd
be so happy and he'd be like, I can't believe
this is my life. And you look at that one
part with you and Biggie and you're like, I can't
believe I'm alive. Like this is like every time he
(22:39):
watched that part, he was so moved. And that for
me as a producer is the vindication that I want
because it's real. And when you get that reaction that's
so raw from an artist, that that's where I want
to live, right. Um. You've talked often because you you're
not just a label owner, You're an entrepreneur. You are
(22:59):
in me your lifestyle. You did with vodka, with this,
with this stuff as well. Um, and you've talked often
about building a team and the importance of having a
team around you. Tell us a little bit about how
you came to that philosophy where you learned that. I
(23:21):
would say, you know, I was driving myself crazy because
I was as at a certain point I was such
a control freak that, Um, you know I was getting
overwhelmed and and I had to in order for me
to go to another level, I had to had to
know that I had to trust other people. And it's
(23:43):
kind of hard, you know, for you to trust people.
But when you put good people around you and you
and you trust them and you motivate them, I think,
I think you get more out of a situation than
whatever fears and insecurities I had about trust. So I
just knew I needed to in order to go to
another level. It wasn't going to be about me. It
(24:04):
was going to be about we and a team that
I had around me. Yeah, and as your building a
relatively new company a couple of years old, what did
you learn from working with him? Um? So much but
but just um persistence and that you don't have to
(24:24):
agree with someone for stuff to be great. And that's
when the best that's when the best part of the
process comes out. That everybody has an opinion that's valuable
to bring to the table. So, you know, Puff taught
me when we would show the movie, we would show assistance,
we would show we would show anybody that was sitting.
We wanted feedback of what people were feeling because the
audience was really important to us. Last question, When you
(24:47):
were a boy, did this dream of the life that
you've lived It seemed possible. Yes, And when you when
when you were young and imagining where you would go,
what were the kinds of things you were thinking about.
(25:08):
I was thinking about everything that that my life has
turned out to be. And I would say it's true manifestation,
you know, just to empower that in you, but not
saying like I knew it all. But you know it's
I knew that this would happen. Well, it's it's I
think we all do know. I think we all do inside.
(25:29):
I just think I just embraced that. Yeah, it's a
remarkable film. Can't stop on stop a Bad Boys story.
I get the feeling the story is continuing and we
look forward to many additional chapters. But many thanks to
Heather Perry and Sean Collins for being here. Thank you
very much, Thank you so much. Thank you all for
(25:51):
your time. Thank you very much. As much as he's
known as a force on his own, it's really interesting
to hear did he describe the importance of putting the
right team around him? You know, so many, so many executives,
so many superstars. They're kind of at the top of
the pyramid and people look at them in that Mount
Rushmore kind of way. But he very much was willing
(26:14):
to recognize those around him and how they help him
be as successful as he is, and of course the
idea that you can push people to get the absolute
best from them, and how you go about doing that
in a way that doesn't ultimately demean or diminish them.
(26:35):
So that's your required listening for today, and from Clive
Davis to Ditty and looking forward, we've got great young
songwriters and a tribute to a legendary artist will be
coming to you every week on Required Listening. Let's keep
the conversation going on all the social platforms at Grammy Museum.
If you're coming to Los Angeles, well, I hope you'll
(26:56):
plan a visit to the Grammy Museum. All the information
on our exhibits, our activity, our programs is at our
website Grammy museum dot org. Shout out to the team
that makes Required Listening happen. Jason James, Kittrick, Kern's Callie Wiseman,
Jim Cannella, Lynn Sheridan, Miranda Moore, Justin, Joseph Jason Hoke,
Chandler Maze, Nick Stump, and everyone at How Stuff Works.
(27:16):
Until next time, I'm Scott Boldman.
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