March 22, 2018 • 25 mins
GRAMMY-nominated songwriter Justin Tranter discusses the process of co-writing Julia Michaels’ hit song "Issues" and the intricacies of being a songwriter.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, the
executive director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the
Clive Davis Theater, I have the privilege of talking to
great artists about their careers, their latest projects, their motivations
and inspirations, and what goes into making great music. I
want to bring these conversations to you, and that's what
(00:21):
our podcast is all about. Now, if you'll listen to
the radio, then our guest on Required Listening this week
likely had a hand in crafting whatever you may be hearing.
Justin Tranter has successfully navigated the pop songwriting landscape, writing
hits for a remarkable list of artists Get This, including
(00:44):
Justin Bieber. The track was called Sorry, Selena Gomez Good
for You, Maroon five track was called Cold Imagine, Dragons Believer,
and another Selena Gomez hit called Bad Liar. But what
ties all of these artists and the songs together. Is
it his particular approach to songwriting or is there something
(01:06):
about his sense of collaboration that enables him to get
the best out of the artists with whom he's working.
We sat down during the craziness of Grammy Week Justin
was there because he was nominated for Song of the
Year for co writing Julia Michaels issues. We had a
terrific discussion, and he was incredibly passionate about the work
(01:28):
that he does with his collaborators and how his goal
was to to elevate what they feel in their gut.
So let's listen to my conversation with Justin Trantor. So
we are here at the YouTube Space in New York.
I'm Scott Goldman, the executive director of the Grammy Museum,
and I am with Song of the Year nominee Justin Tranter.
(01:53):
That just sounds so weird to even hear. Well, tell
tell me why, because because I'm interested in knowing. You know,
I was. I was in like a glam punk band
for so long, so never even thought we'd bet anywhere
close to the Grammys. And then now as a pop songwriter,
you know, for songwriters, there's pretty much only one category
we can get nominated in, and it's such a dramatic, big,
(02:15):
exciting category. So I kind of like, not in a
negative way, but it kind of was like, that's probably
just never going to happen because it's like only five
songs a year, and when you're writing like pretty much
like I write like a little alternative pop music, but
it's still pop music. Normally those songs are like really
like serious, you know. So I just never thought it
was going to happen. So now that it's happened, it
(02:36):
just doesn't feel real at all. Well and and um,
when you look at the others who are nominated, like,
how how is how is this life? Tell me about?
Tell me about where where were you when you got
the call? I was just at home in bed really
bucking early. Um. I'm on the board of GLAD, uh,
(03:00):
you know, lgbt Q media advocacy organization, and they have
to be very up to date, and they're based in
New York, so they're up a lot earlier, and they
have to be like super duper up to date on
all these nominations because they need to put out a
statement about lgbt Q inclusivity and blah blah. So for
the Grammys and for the Golden Globes. When I woke up,
(03:21):
the first text was from the CEO of GLAD being
like congratulations blah blah. So that's also pretty cool because
like I worship her and she's like a huge activist
that saves a lot of lives and so like to
have her text me and be like, Yo, Grammy, how
did I get here? Crazy? Um? I want to talk
to about the song and I want to talk about
writing the song, and is as I mentioned to you,
(03:42):
you know, I had had the chance to talk to
Julia about the song, and she too is a songwriter, um,
and she refers to the process, at least for her,
as musical therapy. And you know, it strikes me if
you listen to the song, if you listen to Issues,
there are some issues we're talking about. So tell me
(04:03):
about the discussions that you had with her as you
started to write the song. So you know, obviously me
and Julia have written an insane amount of songs together.
So at that point when we wrote Issues, um, which
I think at this point was like two years ago
now that we actually wrote it. Obviously it came out
much later than that, but we were already really close,
(04:24):
you know, because a lot of times, as a pop songwriter,
you walk into these sessions and you maybe have never
met the person or you've only met him a couple
of times, and like, so to write something is like
raw and honest and like bear your soul is issues,
you kind of really need to know somebody, you know,
like it's And so luckily at that point, me and
Julie are already best friends, um, and are even when
(04:47):
she you know, because we didn't we wrote that song.
She wasn't planning on being an artist yet on being
a singer. We were just writing it. We would go
in every day and write songs for other people. But
even when we were writing songs for other people, I
always wrote with Julia as like these are these is
her her stories, Like she's the artist. I am the
co writer who is here to help the artists facilitate
(05:11):
their vision and have a sounding board and have an
elevator and all those other things. So that's how you're
writing a song like this is her story. This crazy
thing had just happened with her and her boyfriend or
ex boyfriend, whatever you wanna call it, and I'm there
to like kind of help field. And it's really hard
to put into words because it happens so fucking quick,
(05:31):
you know. Um, But yeah, that's how she always wrote.
She wrote like these were her songs even though she
wasn't singing them yet. And and um, you know, I
talked to her about this, and I'd be interested to
get your take on this that as a songwriter, especially
a songwriter who is who is really writing as openly
and is honestly and from this very vulnerable place, you know.
For for the longest time, for her, it was like, well,
(05:53):
I can do this, and I can give I can
give the words to others to sing and I don't
have to bear that bird. Yeah, And I'm wondering how you,
as a songwriter, do you have that same sense that
you could be bearing a little of your soul and
your vulnerability but somebody else can go sing it. Yeah,
It's it's really interesting I always talk about For me,
it's like I had in my band for so long.
(06:17):
I got to write and sing and say and where
and do exactly what I wanted for ten years and
it was all pretty fucking extreme, you know, it's really
over the top and really really so I had all
of that, so that once I got into pop songwriting,
I was kind of just ready to help other people
tell their stories. I was ready to help other people
(06:38):
execute their vision. And so for the most part, none
of these hits that I have, they're not my story.
I find ways to relate to them so that I
can be more honest. I find ways to be like,
oh well, that kind of happened to me ten years ago.
Because also most people I write with are a lot
younger than I am, so like, oh yeah, I remember
when I thought like a relationship was like the end
(06:59):
of the world, you know, And now I'm like, relationship
sounds insane. You're all crazy? Why do you do that
to yourself? But but we can have a whole another discussion.
That's a whole other podcast. But um so it's it's
it's different for me because these aren't my stories, and
I take such pride in that, and I feel like, um,
I think some songwriters are are afraid to say that
(07:21):
because it makes it like less real or less like,
I don't know what, But to me, it makes it.
That's what I bring to the table. I'm here to
to facilitate and structure and grow and make things a
little more fabulous and a little more urgent. Um So,
for me, that fabulous and those are my two favorite
things in fabulous. How do you do how do you
(07:41):
how do you make it more urgent? You have to
get to the truth. So I this I have the
best job in the world. Right, I go into the
rooms with people that I for the most part don't know,
especially now that Julia is off being a superstar. You know,
I'm like speed dating with different artists and different writers
every day. Um, and it's it's really interesting, it's really awesome,
and it's it's kind of like, um, I got to
(08:03):
work with Leon Bridges recently, amazing and I'm not speeling
any t. He already told people this isn't like random news,
so um, and I was just like I just met him,
and I was just like, so, are you in love?
And the whole room kind of went like that's a
that's really that's a bold like nice to meet you.
Are you in love? You know? Maybe like I have
to get to the truth, like I have to get
(08:25):
something that we can that feels urgent, that feels important,
that feels honest, um in the moment, in the moment, well,
and it's like I want to write the best song possible.
And I know this is awkward because I just met you,
but I need to know are you in love? Like
how's your mom? Like do you hate yourself? You know?
Like these are al and I'm wondering is that an
(08:45):
acquired skill? Is that something that you know, Like the
first couple of times you walked into a co write,
were you that way? Yeah? I think I was lucky
by the time I got there, you know, because I
fell into pop writing almost an accident. Because I fell
into pop writing almost an accident. I was in the
band and that we were on Epic and they refused
(09:06):
to release our album, and we had a publishing deal,
but like an artist band publishing deal, and this new
this woman named Katy Vinton, came into Warner Chapel and
she listened to the new album that we made and
she's like, well, this is amazing, but I can't help you,
Like I don't work at Epic, I work at Warner Chapel,
Like like, but I could put you in sessions to
(09:28):
write for other people if you want, Like, I think
your songs are amazing. Do you want to try that?
And that changed my whole life. So it wasn't ever
like Okay, I gotta build this skill now as a
pop songwriter. It was just like, Okay, here I am.
And luckily, as you can see, I like to talk
and so it's like you just go in and you talk,
(09:49):
and I think that you know, also being you know,
I think that queer people are like the ultimate not
the ultimate underdogs, but we definitely have an underdog perspective.
And I think that that underdog sspective really kind of
helps me cut to the core of things. And I think,
you know, my fabulosity can help me get away with
saying some pretty bold shipped to a person I just
(10:11):
met that other people can't. Maybe I don't know, Um, yeah,
so I don't know if the answer to no, no, no,
you know, all of it is it's of a piece.
It's it's all of a piece. But so I'm interested.
You know, you talked about being in your band, but
when you were young, when you were younger, what music
were you listening to growing up? Was there an artist
(10:33):
or a band that you heard that you said, oh,
that's one, that's what I need to do. There was
a couple of moments like Super Duper Young, like five
four or five years old was the musical Annie. I
was convinced I was Annie. Um so that was first,
and then The Little Mermaid. You know, these aren't the
(10:53):
most rock and roll answers. Well, you were at the
you were at the imagined Dragon Program with Ben Michuel
or Ben or one of one of the guys mentioned
Kenny G. My answers are definitely better than that. Actually,
Kenny's genius and people given way too much ship. But
I want Kenny G's bank account, like I picked up
(11:16):
the wrong instrument anyway. So and then though, it was
like there was that whole nineties era of female singer songwriters.
So whether it was any to Franco Tory Amos, Paula Cole,
Courtney Love, who I think is one of the most
underrated songwriters, Gwen Stefani again super underrated songwriter, that whole
nineties era of women that all came at once, A
(11:37):
lot of more set those. It was those women and
their story and their their strength but still coming from
this feminine point of view, like that exploded my whole mind. Well,
you know, and now that you're mentioning them and thinking
about thinking about their music and talking earlier about being
vulnerable and being honest and open. That was the hallmark.
(12:00):
That was the songs that they were right well and
there was so much urgency to what they're doing. It
was honest and vulnerable. But you know, whether it was
Courtney or a lanist or Auntie Franco or Tory Amis.
There was this like or Fiona Apple, and there was
this like fucking coming at you with like you know,
lyrical daggers, you know what I mean, And like that
was like, oh, I have I have to write songs
(12:21):
Like this is okay. I figured it out. I'm going
to write songs. I mean it took me, like you know,
twenty years to make money fucking got there. Um, So
just back to Julia for a minute. Because you wrote issues,
she had yet to make the decision for herself she
would be the artist. And and in talking to her,
(12:41):
there was a whole internal sort of dialogue about kind
of wrapping her head around that idea. Did you were
you in any way encouraging of her to do that?
It was it's it was an interesting balancing act of
not a balance act like I'm gonna I need to
figure this out. It was like, as her friend, these
thought of being an artist really stressed her out, and
(13:02):
everybody else, every you know, every time we'd go into
a label meeting, the executive was like, let's just put
these songs out with your voice, and everyone was kind
of pressuring her, so take the co writer out of
the equation. As her friend, very close friends, I mean,
we spent six days a week together for three years
before she started touring. Like I was like, whatever you want,
(13:24):
like do it or don't do it. Your voice is unbelievable.
I think you telling these stories from you would have
maybe even more of an impact sometimes, you know, especially
selling issues like you should that shouldn't be yours. I mean,
but that was all her idea. But so it was.
It was an interesting like, well, I think you should
do it, but also as your friend, if it freaks
you out, don't do it. Like but there was a
(13:47):
moment that she talks about of when she was maybe
gonna they were going to be featured on a song
that we had written for somebody, and they decided not
to keep her her part on and that really fucked
us her and we were in a session writing for
somebody else and that really kind of crushed her. And
I was like, she was like in the bathroom crying
(14:07):
and again she's told this story I'm not spilling to
you that I'm not supposed to um And I knocked
on the door and I was like, well, what are
you okay? Call to like, if the I'm taking your
voice off of this is affecting you that much, maybe
it's time that you start doing this um And that
(14:29):
was kind of the beginning of like being able to
really kind of talk about it and figure it out.
And I think it's just amazing, you know. I think
that there's something so beautiful about being the songwriter behind
the scenes. But there's something so special, especially I think
for young people to hear her actually sing these songs.
And I mean literally, when you see her do that song,
(14:50):
it's like it's like written on her body. Yeah, I
mean literally, Yeah, I mean yeah, but but you just
you get the sense. And here's the other thing about
this song. And I talked to her about this, and
I want to get your kind of view on it
as a song. To me, it completely subverts sort of
(15:11):
the pop construction. You're waiting for the big course, you're
waiting for the drop, you're waiting for all these things
that never happened, that never come, and it completely draws
you in. Yeah. Well, what's interesting is that it's definitely
not chasing any pop trends at all. It's very classic
blah blah, and it doesn't feel like it hits any
(15:32):
of the normal pop points, but as like me, you know,
I went to Berkeley College Music and like a total
songwriter geek. Structurally it actually is pretty perfect. But talking
about like phrasing wise, like there's things that you look
at right, like you kind of want the different um
the verse and the pre course and the course you
(15:54):
want melodically doesn't all these are just rules that are
made to be broken, but you want those phrases to
are in different places, so like you don't judge, it's
right on the one. I got issues is before the one.
So it's like when you get the chorus comes, she's
singing earlier than she was singing before. Melodically we do grow.
And so it's the verses here, the preus here, the
(16:16):
chorus is there. Now, mind you, when you're writing, these
aren't really things you're thinking about unless something doesn't feel right,
and then let's look at the math and see what's
not working in this case. And this song is just
like spilled out, you know, like it's just spilled out
of Julia's magical, magical face. And I was just lucky
enough to get to like figure out how to you know,
(16:38):
and and elevate it and and do what I could do.
But by the way, that's it. That's it. That's a
technical songwriting terms, very technical. Yeah, for everything fashion, make
up songs, um. So it's one of those things where
it doesn't right, it doesn't have that big explosion track wise,
it doesn't do this, it doesn't know, but melodically it
actually like it hit all the things you want to hit.
(17:05):
And how often does it happen that these things sort
of come together in that way? Because I've talked to
many songwriters who who always seem to say the best
songs I've ever written have happened in the shortest amount
of time. I mean, for me the majority, Yes, it's
not always the best ones, but I feel like, well,
(17:28):
I can say this, like the the best songs, like
the heart of it comes out really fucking fast. It
pours out, and then sometimes you go back and you tweet,
like when I work with Natman and Robin who I
did Kick by the Ocean with, I did Believer Her
with them, imagine dragons um in those moments, you still
need like the main guts to pour out and capture
(17:50):
that quick. But they they'll massage longer than most of
my collaborators and it's worked out pretty well. So it's
like it's hard to say, but I think, yeah, you
have to get especially if you're trying to write something
honest and it's you have to get that that rush
pretty quick. Is it? Is it different? You mentioned Mattman
and Robin m Is it different co writing and working
(18:13):
with an artist as opposed to these producer dudes who
are you know, top level and they've written, you know,
hits for all or produces for all Man or people.
Does it change kind of who you are as a songwriter?
It does, Well, you have to as the songwriter it's
not about me, um, and so if it's not about me,
(18:37):
I have to figure out what I can do to
best enhanced in writing. We always call in the room
like you're in the room and get in Begger rooms
and better rooms and rooms soul comeup with a much
more glamorous where the room. It's like, you know, it's
not about me, So my job is to get in
there and figure out how I can serve the room
the best. And so it's not just is it different
(18:59):
with artists versus producers or artists versus just straight up songwriters,
or it's kind of just it's case by case by
case by case. You know. Um, I think you know
Julia and Dan Reynolds right, very similarly, where it's very
personal and it's very like this is their fucking life
and like and so that one you have to realize like, okay,
(19:21):
I need to just figure out how to let them
tell their story. This isn't for me to interject, like
I need to just do what's best and like, you know,
so it's different. And then you get into some rooms
and it's like it's more my personality and I lead
the way, you know. So it's just like every days,
every day is different. So Song of the Year nominee
is this is this? Is this changing you? I hope? So?
(19:46):
I hope. So, I hope I'm a completely different person.
Um No. But but in the sense in the sense
that more people calling you up, more places to be,
more distractions. You know, success brings its own in think
you've been successful already, but but this level brings its
own sort of set of challenges. Yeah, I think that,
(20:08):
you know, the main challenges that success brings is just
pressure that people put on themselves. Um And I think
that And I'm last saying I'm completely cured of that phenomenon.
Of course, I put pressure on myself and I want
to do better, and I want to do more, and
I want to do more important things and elevate more
marginalized people to tell their stories and pay my privilege
(20:30):
forward and all that stuff. But to me, I view
those as like aspirations, not really pressure. Um. And also,
you know, my band did really cool ship and we
were amazing and we had a great fan base, but
in the industry it was viewed as like a failure
like four different times, you know what I mean. So
it's like for me, any of this, I can't believe
(20:53):
any of it's happening. It's all like you know, it's
all the dream come true, and it's all like I
never thought I would get here. And you know, the
lack of LGBTQ representation in the music business and especially
on the business side, like I put songwriters on the business,
like the behind the scenes side, I should say, there's
almost there's fucking none of us. So like for me
(21:15):
to you know, be so out and proud and live
my truth and get fucking nominated for a Grammy and
a Golden Globe, and it's like I can go home.
I'm good. I'm nessary animal sanctuary like screw. But I
mean I love what you I love what you're saying about,
(21:35):
you know, elevating those who might not have the platform
and giving them the platform or helping them get to
a different place. Yeah, I was saying to Ka Fla
last night. Me and my publisher Katie were hanging out
with l last night and she's just brilliant, brilliant human being,
and we were talking about I was saying, so, I
met this amazing artist named she a Diamond, and she's
(21:55):
a trans woman of color, and she has this amazing
life story, well crazy life orion. If I would have
met her five years ago, I would be like, Oh,
she's awesome. I'm going to write a song about her.
And then I was like, but now, like, no, I
should just give her the platform to write her own
songs and tell her own story. And so like, that's
the pressure I want to put on myself, like, don't
(22:16):
tell her story, Let her tell her story. Well, and
I was just talking to another Song of the Year nominee,
Eric and Fantastic, and she too was talking about it's
not about me, it's not about her. It's about who
I'm working with. It's about others. Yeah no, and it's
I love the story of like working with Joe Jonas
(22:38):
right when we wrote Kicked by the Ocean, and that
song is so fun and goofy and sexy and over
the top, and but that was like the honesty that
I got out of him. You know. We worked for
a couple of days and we were writing a little
more serious stuff and this and that, but hanging out
with him, he's like really funny and he's really hot.
It's like, you should just good, we should just we
(23:02):
should just do that. Like, even though it's a fun,
goofy song, to me, I'm so proud of it because
it worked because that's I got I figured out how
to make that's that's for him. He's sucking the ship.
So we should do that, you know. And like so
even when it's fun, our job is to just help
people tell the truth, even if that truth is kicked
by the ocean. So what do you want to work with?
(23:26):
That's a good question, Beyonce Stevie Nicks. I need to
Franco Cardi base there a line there. What what ties
those artists together for you? Women? Tell awesome stories. Yeah.
I don't really care what men have to say. No offense,
I won't take it personally. It's okay, um, but yeah,
(23:48):
it's uh yeah, just women who have fucking awesome stories
to tell and have done great things, and um, that's
just what made me want to make music in the
first place, and that's what makes me want to keep
making music. Yeah. I want to make you know, a musical.
I want to do a bunch of stuff. Great, great, Well,
all I can say is you're awesome. Thank you. We're
(24:08):
so glad that you took the time, my honor, the
best of luck on Sunday. Thank you to you and Julia,
thank you, Thanks Justin, thank you, appreciate it. So many
of the songwriters I've spoken to seemed to find the
seeds of songs in conversation, and I would encourage you
to go back and listen to my conversation with Julia
(24:29):
Michaels where she talks specifically about the conversation she had
with Justin as they were writing issues. Now, Justin clearly
speaks to his knowledge and that Berkeley School of Music training,
but it's really more about that relationship, that conversation that
he has with his co writers, it isn't always about
(24:50):
the big chorus or the catchy hook. So that's your
required listening for today. I hope you'll like what you're
hearing on the podcast, and there are plenty more coming up.
We've got fresh episodes coming every week. Let's keep the
conversation going on all the social platforms at Grammy Museum.
(25:11):
If you're coming to Los Angeles, I certainly hope you'll
plan a visit to the Grammy Museum. All the information
about our activities, our programs are exhibits are at our
website Grammy museum dot org. And finally, many thanks to
the team that keeps required listening coming to you. Jason James, Justin,
Joseph Lynn Sheridan, Jim Cannella, Mirandam Moore, Callie Wiseman, Jason Hope,
(25:31):
Chandler Mays, Nick Stump, and everyone at How Stuff Works.
Until next time, I'm Scott Goldman.
Welcome to Required Listening. I'm your host, Scott Goldman, the
executive director of the Grammy Museum. Each week in the
Clive Davis Theater, I have the privilege of talking to
great artists about their careers, their latest projects, their motivations
and inspirations, and what goes into making great music. I
want to bring these conversations to you, and that's what
(00:21):
our podcast is all about. Now, if you'll listen to
the radio, then our guest on Required Listening this week
likely had a hand in crafting whatever you may be hearing.
Justin Tranter has successfully navigated the pop songwriting landscape, writing
hits for a remarkable list of artists Get This, including
(00:44):
Justin Bieber. The track was called Sorry, Selena Gomez Good
for You, Maroon five track was called Cold Imagine, Dragons Believer,
and another Selena Gomez hit called Bad Liar. But what
ties all of these artists and the songs together. Is
it his particular approach to songwriting or is there something
(01:06):
about his sense of collaboration that enables him to get
the best out of the artists with whom he's working.
We sat down during the craziness of Grammy Week Justin
was there because he was nominated for Song of the
Year for co writing Julia Michaels issues. We had a
terrific discussion, and he was incredibly passionate about the work
(01:28):
that he does with his collaborators and how his goal
was to to elevate what they feel in their gut.
So let's listen to my conversation with Justin Trantor. So
we are here at the YouTube Space in New York.
I'm Scott Goldman, the executive director of the Grammy Museum,
and I am with Song of the Year nominee Justin Tranter.
(01:53):
That just sounds so weird to even hear. Well, tell
tell me why, because because I'm interested in knowing. You know,
I was. I was in like a glam punk band
for so long, so never even thought we'd bet anywhere
close to the Grammys. And then now as a pop songwriter,
you know, for songwriters, there's pretty much only one category
we can get nominated in, and it's such a dramatic, big,
(02:15):
exciting category. So I kind of like, not in a
negative way, but it kind of was like, that's probably
just never going to happen because it's like only five
songs a year, and when you're writing like pretty much
like I write like a little alternative pop music, but
it's still pop music. Normally those songs are like really
like serious, you know. So I just never thought it
was going to happen. So now that it's happened, it
(02:36):
just doesn't feel real at all. Well and and um,
when you look at the others who are nominated, like,
how how is how is this life? Tell me about?
Tell me about where where were you when you got
the call? I was just at home in bed really
bucking early. Um. I'm on the board of GLAD, uh,
(03:00):
you know, lgbt Q media advocacy organization, and they have
to be very up to date, and they're based in
New York, so they're up a lot earlier, and they
have to be like super duper up to date on
all these nominations because they need to put out a
statement about lgbt Q inclusivity and blah blah. So for
the Grammys and for the Golden Globes. When I woke up,
(03:21):
the first text was from the CEO of GLAD being
like congratulations blah blah. So that's also pretty cool because
like I worship her and she's like a huge activist
that saves a lot of lives and so like to
have her text me and be like, Yo, Grammy, how
did I get here? Crazy? Um? I want to talk
to about the song and I want to talk about
writing the song, and is as I mentioned to you,
(03:42):
you know, I had had the chance to talk to
Julia about the song, and she too is a songwriter, um,
and she refers to the process, at least for her,
as musical therapy. And you know, it strikes me if
you listen to the song, if you listen to Issues,
there are some issues we're talking about. So tell me
(04:03):
about the discussions that you had with her as you
started to write the song. So you know, obviously me
and Julia have written an insane amount of songs together.
So at that point when we wrote Issues, um, which
I think at this point was like two years ago
now that we actually wrote it. Obviously it came out
much later than that, but we were already really close,
(04:24):
you know, because a lot of times, as a pop songwriter,
you walk into these sessions and you maybe have never
met the person or you've only met him a couple
of times, and like, so to write something is like
raw and honest and like bear your soul is issues,
you kind of really need to know somebody, you know,
like it's And so luckily at that point, me and
Julie are already best friends, um, and are even when
(04:47):
she you know, because we didn't we wrote that song.
She wasn't planning on being an artist yet on being
a singer. We were just writing it. We would go
in every day and write songs for other people. But
even when we were writing songs for other people, I
always wrote with Julia as like these are these is
her her stories, Like she's the artist. I am the
co writer who is here to help the artists facilitate
(05:11):
their vision and have a sounding board and have an
elevator and all those other things. So that's how you're
writing a song like this is her story. This crazy
thing had just happened with her and her boyfriend or
ex boyfriend, whatever you wanna call it, and I'm there
to like kind of help field. And it's really hard
to put into words because it happens so fucking quick,
(05:31):
you know. Um, But yeah, that's how she always wrote.
She wrote like these were her songs even though she
wasn't singing them yet. And and um, you know, I
talked to her about this, and I'd be interested to
get your take on this that as a songwriter, especially
a songwriter who is who is really writing as openly
and is honestly and from this very vulnerable place, you know.
For for the longest time, for her, it was like, well,
(05:53):
I can do this, and I can give I can
give the words to others to sing and I don't
have to bear that bird. Yeah, And I'm wondering how you,
as a songwriter, do you have that same sense that
you could be bearing a little of your soul and
your vulnerability but somebody else can go sing it. Yeah,
It's it's really interesting I always talk about For me,
it's like I had in my band for so long.
(06:17):
I got to write and sing and say and where
and do exactly what I wanted for ten years and
it was all pretty fucking extreme, you know, it's really
over the top and really really so I had all
of that, so that once I got into pop songwriting,
I was kind of just ready to help other people
tell their stories. I was ready to help other people
(06:38):
execute their vision. And so for the most part, none
of these hits that I have, they're not my story.
I find ways to relate to them so that I
can be more honest. I find ways to be like,
oh well, that kind of happened to me ten years ago.
Because also most people I write with are a lot
younger than I am, so like, oh yeah, I remember
when I thought like a relationship was like the end
(06:59):
of the world, you know, And now I'm like, relationship
sounds insane. You're all crazy? Why do you do that
to yourself? But but we can have a whole another discussion.
That's a whole other podcast. But um so it's it's
it's different for me because these aren't my stories, and
I take such pride in that, and I feel like, um,
I think some songwriters are are afraid to say that
(07:21):
because it makes it like less real or less like,
I don't know what, But to me, it makes it.
That's what I bring to the table. I'm here to
to facilitate and structure and grow and make things a
little more fabulous and a little more urgent. Um So,
for me, that fabulous and those are my two favorite
things in fabulous. How do you do how do you
(07:41):
how do you make it more urgent? You have to
get to the truth. So I this I have the
best job in the world. Right, I go into the
rooms with people that I for the most part don't know,
especially now that Julia is off being a superstar. You know,
I'm like speed dating with different artists and different writers
every day. Um, and it's it's really interesting, it's really awesome,
and it's it's kind of like, um, I got to
(08:03):
work with Leon Bridges recently, amazing and I'm not speeling
any t. He already told people this isn't like random news,
so um, and I was just like I just met him,
and I was just like, so, are you in love?
And the whole room kind of went like that's a
that's really that's a bold like nice to meet you.
Are you in love? You know? Maybe like I have
to get to the truth, like I have to get
(08:25):
something that we can that feels urgent, that feels important,
that feels honest, um in the moment, in the moment, well,
and it's like I want to write the best song possible.
And I know this is awkward because I just met you,
but I need to know are you in love? Like
how's your mom? Like do you hate yourself? You know?
Like these are al and I'm wondering is that an
(08:45):
acquired skill? Is that something that you know, Like the
first couple of times you walked into a co write,
were you that way? Yeah? I think I was lucky
by the time I got there, you know, because I
fell into pop writing almost an accident. Because I fell
into pop writing almost an accident. I was in the
band and that we were on Epic and they refused
(09:06):
to release our album, and we had a publishing deal,
but like an artist band publishing deal, and this new
this woman named Katy Vinton, came into Warner Chapel and
she listened to the new album that we made and
she's like, well, this is amazing, but I can't help you,
Like I don't work at Epic, I work at Warner Chapel,
Like like, but I could put you in sessions to
(09:28):
write for other people if you want, Like, I think
your songs are amazing. Do you want to try that?
And that changed my whole life. So it wasn't ever
like Okay, I gotta build this skill now as a
pop songwriter. It was just like, Okay, here I am.
And luckily, as you can see, I like to talk
and so it's like you just go in and you talk,
(09:49):
and I think that you know, also being you know,
I think that queer people are like the ultimate not
the ultimate underdogs, but we definitely have an underdog perspective.
And I think that that underdog sspective really kind of
helps me cut to the core of things. And I think,
you know, my fabulosity can help me get away with
saying some pretty bold shipped to a person I just
(10:11):
met that other people can't. Maybe I don't know, Um, yeah,
so I don't know if the answer to no, no, no,
you know, all of it is it's of a piece.
It's it's all of a piece. But so I'm interested.
You know, you talked about being in your band, but
when you were young, when you were younger, what music
were you listening to growing up? Was there an artist
(10:33):
or a band that you heard that you said, oh,
that's one, that's what I need to do. There was
a couple of moments like Super Duper Young, like five
four or five years old was the musical Annie. I
was convinced I was Annie. Um so that was first,
and then The Little Mermaid. You know, these aren't the
(10:53):
most rock and roll answers. Well, you were at the
you were at the imagined Dragon Program with Ben Michuel
or Ben or one of one of the guys mentioned
Kenny G. My answers are definitely better than that. Actually,
Kenny's genius and people given way too much ship. But
I want Kenny G's bank account, like I picked up
(11:16):
the wrong instrument anyway. So and then though, it was
like there was that whole nineties era of female singer songwriters.
So whether it was any to Franco Tory Amos, Paula Cole,
Courtney Love, who I think is one of the most
underrated songwriters, Gwen Stefani again super underrated songwriter, that whole
nineties era of women that all came at once, A
(11:37):
lot of more set those. It was those women and
their story and their their strength but still coming from
this feminine point of view, like that exploded my whole mind. Well,
you know, and now that you're mentioning them and thinking
about thinking about their music and talking earlier about being
vulnerable and being honest and open. That was the hallmark.
(12:00):
That was the songs that they were right well and
there was so much urgency to what they're doing. It
was honest and vulnerable. But you know, whether it was
Courtney or a lanist or Auntie Franco or Tory Amis.
There was this like or Fiona Apple, and there was
this like fucking coming at you with like you know,
lyrical daggers, you know what I mean, And like that
was like, oh, I have I have to write songs
(12:21):
Like this is okay. I figured it out. I'm going
to write songs. I mean it took me, like you know,
twenty years to make money fucking got there. Um, So
just back to Julia for a minute. Because you wrote issues,
she had yet to make the decision for herself she
would be the artist. And and in talking to her,
(12:41):
there was a whole internal sort of dialogue about kind
of wrapping her head around that idea. Did you were
you in any way encouraging of her to do that?
It was it's it was an interesting balancing act of
not a balance act like I'm gonna I need to
figure this out. It was like, as her friend, these
thought of being an artist really stressed her out, and
(13:02):
everybody else, every you know, every time we'd go into
a label meeting, the executive was like, let's just put
these songs out with your voice, and everyone was kind
of pressuring her, so take the co writer out of
the equation. As her friend, very close friends, I mean,
we spent six days a week together for three years
before she started touring. Like I was like, whatever you want,
(13:24):
like do it or don't do it. Your voice is unbelievable.
I think you telling these stories from you would have
maybe even more of an impact sometimes, you know, especially
selling issues like you should that shouldn't be yours. I mean,
but that was all her idea. But so it was.
It was an interesting like, well, I think you should
do it, but also as your friend, if it freaks
you out, don't do it. Like but there was a
(13:47):
moment that she talks about of when she was maybe
gonna they were going to be featured on a song
that we had written for somebody, and they decided not
to keep her her part on and that really fucked
us her and we were in a session writing for
somebody else and that really kind of crushed her. And
I was like, she was like in the bathroom crying
(14:07):
and again she's told this story I'm not spilling to
you that I'm not supposed to um And I knocked
on the door and I was like, well, what are
you okay? Call to like, if the I'm taking your
voice off of this is affecting you that much, maybe
it's time that you start doing this um And that
(14:29):
was kind of the beginning of like being able to
really kind of talk about it and figure it out.
And I think it's just amazing, you know. I think
that there's something so beautiful about being the songwriter behind
the scenes. But there's something so special, especially I think
for young people to hear her actually sing these songs.
And I mean literally, when you see her do that song,
(14:50):
it's like it's like written on her body. Yeah, I
mean literally, Yeah, I mean yeah, but but you just
you get the sense. And here's the other thing about
this song. And I talked to her about this, and
I want to get your kind of view on it
as a song. To me, it completely subverts sort of
(15:11):
the pop construction. You're waiting for the big course, you're
waiting for the drop, you're waiting for all these things
that never happened, that never come, and it completely draws
you in. Yeah. Well, what's interesting is that it's definitely
not chasing any pop trends at all. It's very classic
blah blah, and it doesn't feel like it hits any
(15:32):
of the normal pop points, but as like me, you know,
I went to Berkeley College Music and like a total
songwriter geek. Structurally it actually is pretty perfect. But talking
about like phrasing wise, like there's things that you look
at right, like you kind of want the different um
the verse and the pre course and the course you
(15:54):
want melodically doesn't all these are just rules that are
made to be broken, but you want those phrases to
are in different places, so like you don't judge, it's
right on the one. I got issues is before the one.
So it's like when you get the chorus comes, she's
singing earlier than she was singing before. Melodically we do grow.
And so it's the verses here, the preus here, the
(16:16):
chorus is there. Now, mind you, when you're writing, these
aren't really things you're thinking about unless something doesn't feel right,
and then let's look at the math and see what's
not working in this case. And this song is just
like spilled out, you know, like it's just spilled out
of Julia's magical, magical face. And I was just lucky
enough to get to like figure out how to you know,
(16:38):
and and elevate it and and do what I could do.
But by the way, that's it. That's it. That's a
technical songwriting terms, very technical. Yeah, for everything fashion, make
up songs, um. So it's one of those things where
it doesn't right, it doesn't have that big explosion track wise,
it doesn't do this, it doesn't know, but melodically it
actually like it hit all the things you want to hit.
(17:05):
And how often does it happen that these things sort
of come together in that way? Because I've talked to
many songwriters who who always seem to say the best
songs I've ever written have happened in the shortest amount
of time. I mean, for me the majority, Yes, it's
not always the best ones, but I feel like, well,
(17:28):
I can say this, like the the best songs, like
the heart of it comes out really fucking fast. It
pours out, and then sometimes you go back and you tweet,
like when I work with Natman and Robin who I
did Kick by the Ocean with, I did Believer Her
with them, imagine dragons um in those moments, you still
need like the main guts to pour out and capture
(17:50):
that quick. But they they'll massage longer than most of
my collaborators and it's worked out pretty well. So it's
like it's hard to say, but I think, yeah, you
have to get especially if you're trying to write something
honest and it's you have to get that that rush
pretty quick. Is it? Is it different? You mentioned Mattman
and Robin m Is it different co writing and working
(18:13):
with an artist as opposed to these producer dudes who
are you know, top level and they've written, you know,
hits for all or produces for all Man or people.
Does it change kind of who you are as a songwriter?
It does, Well, you have to as the songwriter it's
not about me, um, and so if it's not about me,
(18:37):
I have to figure out what I can do to
best enhanced in writing. We always call in the room
like you're in the room and get in Begger rooms
and better rooms and rooms soul comeup with a much
more glamorous where the room. It's like, you know, it's
not about me, So my job is to get in
there and figure out how I can serve the room
the best. And so it's not just is it different
(18:59):
with artists versus producers or artists versus just straight up songwriters,
or it's kind of just it's case by case by
case by case. You know. Um, I think you know
Julia and Dan Reynolds right, very similarly, where it's very
personal and it's very like this is their fucking life
and like and so that one you have to realize like, okay,
(19:21):
I need to just figure out how to let them
tell their story. This isn't for me to interject, like
I need to just do what's best and like, you know,
so it's different. And then you get into some rooms
and it's like it's more my personality and I lead
the way, you know. So it's just like every days,
every day is different. So Song of the Year nominee
is this is this? Is this changing you? I hope? So?
(19:46):
I hope. So, I hope I'm a completely different person.
Um No. But but in the sense in the sense
that more people calling you up, more places to be,
more distractions. You know, success brings its own in think
you've been successful already, but but this level brings its
own sort of set of challenges. Yeah, I think that,
(20:08):
you know, the main challenges that success brings is just
pressure that people put on themselves. Um And I think
that And I'm last saying I'm completely cured of that phenomenon.
Of course, I put pressure on myself and I want
to do better, and I want to do more, and
I want to do more important things and elevate more
marginalized people to tell their stories and pay my privilege
(20:30):
forward and all that stuff. But to me, I view
those as like aspirations, not really pressure. Um. And also,
you know, my band did really cool ship and we
were amazing and we had a great fan base, but
in the industry it was viewed as like a failure
like four different times, you know what I mean. So
it's like for me, any of this, I can't believe
(20:53):
any of it's happening. It's all like you know, it's
all the dream come true, and it's all like I
never thought I would get here. And you know, the
lack of LGBTQ representation in the music business and especially
on the business side, like I put songwriters on the business,
like the behind the scenes side, I should say, there's
almost there's fucking none of us. So like for me
(21:15):
to you know, be so out and proud and live
my truth and get fucking nominated for a Grammy and
a Golden Globe, and it's like I can go home.
I'm good. I'm nessary animal sanctuary like screw. But I
mean I love what you I love what you're saying about,
(21:35):
you know, elevating those who might not have the platform
and giving them the platform or helping them get to
a different place. Yeah, I was saying to Ka Fla
last night. Me and my publisher Katie were hanging out
with l last night and she's just brilliant, brilliant human being,
and we were talking about I was saying, so, I
met this amazing artist named she a Diamond, and she's
(21:55):
a trans woman of color, and she has this amazing
life story, well crazy life orion. If I would have
met her five years ago, I would be like, Oh,
she's awesome. I'm going to write a song about her.
And then I was like, but now, like, no, I
should just give her the platform to write her own
songs and tell her own story. And so like, that's
the pressure I want to put on myself, like, don't
(22:16):
tell her story, Let her tell her story. Well, and
I was just talking to another Song of the Year nominee,
Eric and Fantastic, and she too was talking about it's
not about me, it's not about her. It's about who
I'm working with. It's about others. Yeah no, and it's
I love the story of like working with Joe Jonas
(22:38):
right when we wrote Kicked by the Ocean, and that
song is so fun and goofy and sexy and over
the top, and but that was like the honesty that
I got out of him. You know. We worked for
a couple of days and we were writing a little
more serious stuff and this and that, but hanging out
with him, he's like really funny and he's really hot.
It's like, you should just good, we should just we
(23:02):
should just do that. Like, even though it's a fun,
goofy song, to me, I'm so proud of it because
it worked because that's I got I figured out how
to make that's that's for him. He's sucking the ship.
So we should do that, you know. And like so
even when it's fun, our job is to just help
people tell the truth, even if that truth is kicked
by the ocean. So what do you want to work with?
(23:26):
That's a good question, Beyonce Stevie Nicks. I need to
Franco Cardi base there a line there. What what ties
those artists together for you? Women? Tell awesome stories. Yeah.
I don't really care what men have to say. No offense,
I won't take it personally. It's okay, um, but yeah,
(23:48):
it's uh yeah, just women who have fucking awesome stories
to tell and have done great things, and um, that's
just what made me want to make music in the
first place, and that's what makes me want to keep
making music. Yeah. I want to make you know, a musical.
I want to do a bunch of stuff. Great, great, Well,
all I can say is you're awesome. Thank you. We're
(24:08):
so glad that you took the time, my honor, the
best of luck on Sunday. Thank you to you and Julia,
thank you, Thanks Justin, thank you, appreciate it. So many
of the songwriters I've spoken to seemed to find the
seeds of songs in conversation, and I would encourage you
to go back and listen to my conversation with Julia
(24:29):
Michaels where she talks specifically about the conversation she had
with Justin as they were writing issues. Now, Justin clearly
speaks to his knowledge and that Berkeley School of Music training,
but it's really more about that relationship, that conversation that
he has with his co writers, it isn't always about
(24:50):
the big chorus or the catchy hook. So that's your
required listening for today. I hope you'll like what you're
hearing on the podcast, and there are plenty more coming up.
We've got fresh episodes coming every week. Let's keep the
conversation going on all the social platforms at Grammy Museum.
(25:11):
If you're coming to Los Angeles, I certainly hope you'll
plan a visit to the Grammy Museum. All the information
about our activities, our programs are exhibits are at our
website Grammy museum dot org. And finally, many thanks to
the team that keeps required listening coming to you. Jason James, Justin,
Joseph Lynn Sheridan, Jim Cannella, Mirandam Moore, Callie Wiseman, Jason Hope,
(25:31):
Chandler Mays, Nick Stump, and everyone at How Stuff Works.
Until next time, I'm Scott Goldman.
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