September 12, 2019 • 49 mins
Today we take a look at a practice that many of us do every day without a second thought - namely, wear pants. However, for women throughout history, wearing pants has not always been such a trivial matter. Join Ben and special guest Christopher Hassiotis as they examine four times that women in the United States were arrested simply for wearing pants.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
to the show Ridiculous Historians. We are so happy that
you have joined us today. My name is Ben am
was always joined with our super producer Casey pegram My
trustee co host nol Is on some Adventures and I
have the immense pleasure of welcoming back to the show
(00:51):
our one of our favorite recurring guest, longtime friend of
mine in real life, and then a longtime friend of
the show folks. Hello to Christopher haciotis Ben Casey. Thank
you so much for having me back. It's a real pleasure. Yeah,
I'm glad we worked out that cookie thing. I don't
know what you're talking about, so so uh the bit
(01:12):
of trivia. Here, as Casey and Christopher and I record
today's episode, we are all wearing pants nowadays. That's like
a regular thing you expect when you go out into
the world, that you'll see someone wearing pants. Yeah, I
saw like, at least I don't know, tend people wearing
(01:33):
pants today. Um, they've really caught on, probably more, I
don't know. Yeah. Let me let me paint a picture
though for listeners. Um, I'm sitting here in the studio.
Band is in the studio with me. Casey is right
outside the studio manning the computer and the and the
knobs and the switches and all those things. Um, I
can see. Uh, let's see so our our studio is
(01:55):
covered in sort of a dark gray milk crate sound
absorbing substance. We've got some pens and coffee cups on
the table, We've got microphones. There's a floor lamp behind you,
floor lamp um, some plants, various housecats, little dragon over there.
And then I see sitting across the table from me,
(02:17):
a Rakish gentleman in a blue and brownish plaid shirt,
a little you know, kind of adventurous facial hair, and
I cus, how dare you know? Why? Well, let's move
on outside. I out out the window. I see another
gentleman with some adventurous facial hair and you know, just
(02:39):
really alluring good looks. Also a plaid with a brown
and blue a little more white than maybe yours. Ben,
It's no secret big Plaid runs this podcast. Well, I
don't see, though I'm looking. I don't know if you
guys are wearing pants. Oh, but you know what, it's fine.
(03:00):
I could see all your hands. So I know that
you're not hiding any weapons or no knives or guns whatever.
But you know what I think, in this day, if
you were not wearing pants, if you were wearing something
maybe a little more unexpected, it would still be fine.
That's that's right. If you're wearing something more unexpected, you
will have people react accordingly, barrel um, I guess like
(03:23):
a big pilot monkeys. Yeah. One thing one't common alternative
for a lot of people would be a kilt. Ye like,
it's some people very popular on certain times the year.
I was just up in Franklin, North Carolina, recently, and
they have a Museum of the American Tartan I believe
it's what it was called, the whole museum dedicated to
(03:44):
h two kilts and Scottish patterns. And did you go?
I walked past, it was closed. I was closed. I
was on my way to the Museum of the American
house Cat, which is a little further north in the
North Carolina Mountains. That's not why we're here today, though,
But I would incur anyone listening who's in the vicinity
of western North Carolina, northern Georgia, eastern Tennessee in that
(04:07):
sort of smokey mountain area. Go check out the Museum
of the American house Cat. I am ac on board
and don't know why I haven't done that earlier. Can
I just tell you there's a mummified cat? Yes? Please,
thank you? Now I have to go. Also, just before
we move on, is it is it a pretty robust museum?
Is it something that you could spend a few hours in?
(04:30):
You could? You could? People do love cats. Um, it
is made up for what it lacks in breadth by
significant depth. Okay, there we go. It's a very very
well thought out answer. I'm impressed. I thought about the
Museum of the American house Cat a good amount of
the past week. So so you're you're right. Today we
(04:52):
are regrettably not diving into the fascinating history. Ben. Actually,
you know what, I did bring it up for a reason.
Can I retroactively make that tangent relevant? Yes? Oh? Yes,
because at the Museum of the American Housecat, who is
I promise not a sponsor of this show, but probably
should be. With as much as I've mentioned them in
the past couple of minutes, Um, there are really really
(05:13):
charming paintings of cats wearing say dresses, frilly dresses, frocks, mocks,
you know, any sort of petticoat, ball gowns. Maybe, so
I bring up the idea of a cat wearing a dress, because, um,
sometimes people think it's inappropriate for certain people to wear
(05:34):
certain things. Yes, absolutely, I was was that like ya
sitting for Noel's like tangent, I kind of tie it in. Okay,
I thought you did a great job. Yeah, this is
this is probably one of the best ones we've had
on this show. Uh so surround best. Noel has a
lot to live up to. I do as well. It
(05:56):
is true, Christopher, that we see so very often throughout history,
we see the way that people communicate through dress, or
we see the way that dress is perceived or enforced.
Right like here in the US nowadays, if someone is
(06:20):
just walking around in public, then other than covering you know,
let's be honest, like Genitalia and and probably nipples counting
there too, nipples, buttocks, right, other than covering those areas,
it's pretty much anything goes. You can kind of wear
what you want. I mean, I to inject a little
(06:41):
bit of socio political cultural reality into that. Many of
us who maybe are you know, white men, for instance,
can get away with stuff absolutely. People from different communities
get polased all the time for what they're wearing when
they get profiled. Yeah, but that is that kind of discrimination,
and that kind of profiling is not legal. It's just
(07:04):
it's just this country does a piss poor job of
actually following the letter of the law in the in
these regards. And you're right, because uh, privilege is a
huge is a huge problematic part of this thing. There's
also throughout the span of human civilization there are examples
(07:24):
of certain clothing types being restricted to certain people based
on socio economic or socio political cast system a hierarchy
for lack of a better word. And today's story is
about one of the most ridiculous related uh, series of
events that that we found that applies in this And
(07:47):
this is something that you introduced me to via our
fantastic peer podcast, Stuff Mom Never Told You. Yeah, Stuff
Mom Never Told You is a really terrific show. It's
got a long history here at the company and has
been running for ten plus years um and really dives
into a wide variety of issues relating to a myriad
of things that women in today's society face and touches
(08:10):
on history, politics, culture, entertainment, and it really runs the gamut.
So if you're interested in a really well researched, well
thought out conversational show about that, and if it sounds
up your alley, check out Stuff Mom Never Told You listeners,
if you haven't already. But yeah, as we were kind
of poking through the stuff mon I Ever told you archives,
(08:31):
we came across a piece written by former colleague of
ours and it sparked the idea to really dig into
some of these stories about women who have been arrested
for wearing pants. That's why we've been talking about pants
so much, and that's that's it. To be absolutely clear,
the crime they were arrested for was not like stealing
(08:52):
a carriage while wearing pants. It was just wearing pants.
I will also add that these arrests took place in
the United States. Yes, so this is not this isn't like, Okay,
we're talking about some fairly repressive regime in um, you know,
a part of the world that maybe has traditions that
(09:14):
would really really overtly frown on that talking about the
United States. And we're also yeah, we're also not talking
about religious splinter groups or very conservative communities that are
isolated from mainstream US culture. We're talking about the regular,
everyday Jane's and Joe's of this country, and Chris for you,
(09:38):
and I looked through and found a couple of examples.
I propose that we round robin them, you know. And
I also felt, to be completely clear, I felt so
just baffled and and beflummixed to learn that this was
a real thing. It seemed like, you know, and this
(10:03):
is this just highlights MI tremendous ignorance in this regard,
but it seemed like something that people would consider a
big deal much earlier in history. Because these cases are
some of them are distressingly recent. And that's the thing.
These are cases, right, So today we're not talking about
(10:23):
the woman who was arrested for wearing pants. We're talking
about the women, multiple women, in multiple instances, over hundreds
of years in this country, who are arrested specifically for
sporting pants, trousers, uh, you know, dungarees, whatever you want
to call them, pieces of fabric wrapped around two legs
(10:44):
rather than worn as one long sheath like a dress. Right.
The situations range from you know, humorous, the heartbreaking, because
every person we're discussing in today's episode is pretty much
a he in in how they stood up to the
prejudice and discrimination of the time. Christopher, being that you
(11:09):
are returning guests here, would would you like to kick
us off today? Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to
tell you about the story of Mary Tilts. And there
was a woman who lived in New Jersey in the
mid eighteen hundreds, so we're talking about a good long
time ago. At the time, it was much more traditional
for a woman to wear really kind of full dress, right,
So if you think back to that sort of Victorian fashion,
(11:32):
probably what you're thinking when you're thinking those CPIA toned
photos is fairly accurate. You know, corsets, petticoats, tights, hats,
you know, sort of that Bodice War and a tight outfit.
Mary Tillotson, though, going back to the eight forties, really
started kind of shortening her dresses, at least in eighteen
(11:53):
forty two. The historical record, and a lot of this
comes from a couple of different pieces. Um forgive the
long titles, but that's what academics tend to do. If
this sort of thing sounds fun to you dig into
the Freedom Suit, Feminism and Dress Reform in the United
States seventy five. That's a journal article written by Amy
Kestleman back in uh. There's also a lot of information
(12:15):
that we got from the two thousand three book by
Patricia and Cunningham, Reforming Women's Fashion eighteen fifty to nineteen
twenty Politics, Health and Art. And I say politics, health
and art because that's actually at the heart of Mary
Tillotson's arrest. So the reason that she was changing her
(12:36):
mode of dress, shortening her dress, you know, making it shorter,
taking about a foot off, and switching to what was
known as reform dress. The reform dress was a specific
style where a woman would wear trousers and a short
dress over it. It looked a little bit sort of
like a what we might think of as a work outfits.
(12:59):
This was for health reasons. So Mary Tillotson was part
of a movement called the Dress Reform Society adopting reform dress.
Her impetus was that she was suffering from dyspepsia, indigestion,
really poor health, and thought that if I loosened some
of the scarb it might really offer some health benefits.
(13:22):
And for her it did. The thing is, Mary Tillotson
was out in public in Newark in eighteen forties and
she was arrested. The other thing about that is it
wasn't illegal, you know. And this this calls back a
little bit ben to what you mentioned, how there's this
divide between cultural norms and what is or isn't legal.
(13:45):
Mary Tillotson was arrested for wearing pants, not because it
was against the law, but because the police officer in Newark,
New Jersey, assumed it was against the law. He thought,
surely there must be a law against a woman wearing trousers.
Let me lock this woman up. And that's that's the
(14:05):
thing we have to emphasize here. She was arrested and
was doing nothing wrong, and it wasn't as if she were,
you know, just sort of hassled on the street side
and then let go with a warning or whatever. Like.
They took her in, right, yeah, arrested, spent the night
in prison, was eventually released because I was found to
(14:28):
be violating no laws, you know. But that's the thing
that that's what's tricky. I think a lot of times
we talked about interactions with police and the courts. Um.
You know, if a police officer takes you into custody,
it's not like you can just immediately say hey, wait
a minute, there's no law and walk out. You still
have to spend time in prison, You still have to
go through the legal appeals. Like there's a huge hassle
(14:51):
involved in all this stuff, all based solely on one
man's assumption that this this violation of social norms also
carried with an event lation of the law, which is
it's ridiculous, right, it's ridiculous, and and that there is
no system in place at the time too, then immediately
refute those claims, you know, mechanism. Yeah and so so.
(15:14):
Mary Tillison spent time in prison for wearing pants. But
this wasn't just a personal thing for her. Till Itson.
Actually I mentioned that the reform dress styles of trousers
and short dresses for health reasons. It's something that she
adopted as a cause for pretty much the rest of
her life. She helped form the Dress Reform Society in
(15:36):
eighteen seventy the American Free Dress League in eighteen seventy five. Um,
you know, she was part of a movement of really
trying to push forth a more liberated agenda. She was
part of a movement in eighteen sixty eight to try
to vote, which at the time women were not permitted
to do in the United States, among many other people,
and she she even cataloged her whole endeavor in a
(16:01):
book that she wrote called History of the First thirty
five Years of the Science Costume Movement in the United States.
And science Costume is uh, kind of a funny name,
but it was another term for the reformed dress um
outfit because the idea was based on supposedly scientific principles
that given a little more freedom of movement, women would
(16:23):
be healthier. It plays into and some of the authors
of the books that I mentioned earlier bring this up
that Tillotson was part of an early feminist movement and
her peers in that that reform dress movement didn't endeavor
really to push through political reform or economic reform through policy.
It was more to present themselves in their lives as
(16:46):
modes of being and to inspire other people on an
individual basis to adopt that way of living, that way
of dress. And uh, you know, it was it was
a that that specific reform dress. And there are certainly
fashion historians who are much more steep in this than
I am. It only lasted for a couple of years,
and then fashion sort of swung back in the other
(17:08):
direction in the eighteen um sixties, I believe. But it
was the start of something. It was the start of something.
But it also was not the end of till Itson's story,
because she eventually moved to a place Violand New Jersey.
Violin had at the time of reputation as a more
progressive town, at least more progressive than the average bear,
(17:32):
I guess. And you could wear pants. You could wear pants,
which is still so crazy, right, uh? And at that time,
apparently it was. It was considered less controversial. As a
local historian put it, the area was more tolerant of
her practice, and it was considered in its day in
(17:53):
the eighteen sixties, it was considered a quote hotbed of
liberal activity. But I like the idea that until Itson
was able to find a place where she could dress
and live as she wanted to live. And while some
people will say that till Itson's medical interests like the
(18:15):
so called water cure and stuff, well they may say
that was a little bit I don't know, quackish, or
maybe the science wasn't a million percent there. The truth
of the matter is that her contributions for bravery had
to be inspiring to so many people around the country
who probably looked at this and thought, you know, well,
(18:36):
why do I have to wear a dress? And that
happened in the eighteen forties, and this is you know,
it kind of pushes against the idea of America has
always been the place where where people can do what
they want and are free to live the life they live, right,
you know, it's it's there's there's always that that duality
right of the United States, as it could be in
the United States, as individuals experience it sometimes mm hmmm.
(19:01):
And then you know, while we're in this period, I
propose that we we stay in this area time wise,
right chronologically, and then we go to another Mary. Let's
go to Dr Mary Edwards Walker. She is the first
person to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor in eighteen
(19:23):
sixty five for her service during the Civil War. She
didn't just wake up one day and say I'm going
to wear this pair of pants. In the late eighteen hundreds,
she started wearing clothing overwhelmingly wearing clothing that at the
time was considered clothing only for men, and this led
to her getting arrested multiple times. She has a great
(19:47):
quotation that our colleague Kristen Conger brought to our attention
in an article for Stuff Mom Never Told You, where
Dr Walker says, I am the original new woman. I
have prepared the way for the girl in knickerbockers is
back when people used to say knickerbockers all the time.
And Dr Walker's journey is pretty amazing. In eighteen sixty six,
(20:13):
she actually became president of the organization you mentioned earlier,
the National Dress Reform Association, and she was, you know,
getting arrested by these jerk police officers. She would get
ridiculed from people not just opponents of the dress reform movement,
(20:34):
but also people who had advocated some degree of it,
who had said, look, I just want to wear pants
walking around with a suit. That's a bit extreme, don't
you think, doctor Well, I mean that that's one of
the struggles, right, that that she and so many other
people who are looking to push society forward in a
in a way that they think would benefit more people
(20:55):
always struggle with right. It's it's incrementalism versus massive sweet change.
It's yeah, I get you, but do you have to
go that far? Which works for some people and doesn't
for others. A lot of people want to take that
moon shot. I guess yeah, I think I think you're
absolutely right there. Walker's story does not end entirely happily,
(21:16):
but it ends with a sort of prescience. So by
the time she passes away in nineteen nineteen, she has
been somewhat isolated from the larger feminist movement because she
was seeing and this comes from a great article on
weird history dot Org by R. E. Fulton. Dr. Walker
(21:39):
was seen as not this pioneer, not this harbinger of
a new era of equality, but she was seen more
as an eccentric and an odd duck because the people
who would have logically been her allies and her partners
in this sort of movement, we're concerned earned that her
(22:01):
dress was so unusual for the time that she was
weakening the the arguments that they were they were attempting
to have the changes they were attempting to make, so
they would think, you know, you're you're taking it too far.
People should wear what they want, but why are you
walking around in a top coat and a hat that
(22:23):
mail doctors wear, and she continued to say, well, you
know what, women being people should be able to address
however they want, work wherever they want, and you know,
do whatever they want in general. So walker story ended
with with another quote this is from were History out
(22:45):
a word that I thought was pretty powerful. She says,
I have got to die before people will know who
I am and what I have done. It is a
shame that people who lead reforms in this world are
not appreciated until after they are dead. Then the world
pays its tributes. And for a time, um, you know,
we said that she passed away in her name was
(23:08):
deleted from the Army Medal of Honor role in nine seventeen,
and it wasn't restored until nineteen seventy seven. That's really
a shame. I mean, it's a shame. For a while,
it's heartening that that her stories come back up and
resurfaced that I think, in particular, her story really underscores
(23:30):
how malleable the stories we tell as a society can be. Right.
Who we lionize, who we put on pedestals, These are
always always, always conscious choices. It's not like someone is
intrinsically a hero or not. Right, it's it's those of
us around them who tell stories about them, especially after
(23:53):
they're gone, and kind of what we imbue them with. Yeah,
I mean, but that's what that's why we're talking about
these women. That's why we sit in these booths and
chat about all these different figures, because it's it's really
important to kind of uncover who they are, what they
mean to the world, what they mean to societies and
cultures which can change. And also a lot of it's
(24:15):
really ridiculous. It's easy though, right when we are talking
about history to say this is the way things were
a hundred and fifty years ago, this is the way
It's not like that anymore. But let's let's jump ahead
a couple more decades, right, Let's let's go straight into
(24:35):
the twentieth century. And I'd like to talk to you
and uh and and listeners, if you haven't heard history,
it's this one, thankfully, is a little more lighthearted. There's
no um serious repercussions. But in In Night there's a
woman named Helen Huluk. She went through something really similar,
you know, And I think a lot of times when
(24:56):
people think about social reformers or people who are pushing
society to move forward. They say these are professional activists
or their agitators, or like this is their primary goal
is to really disrupt. Right, But we're talking about a
kindergarten teacher and a kindergarten teacher who wasn't even pushed
(25:19):
into this activist role that I'm about to kind of
lay out for you. She was trying to do a
good thing. So Helen hulk l a resident, and a
lot of what we know about who Look comes from
the l A Times reporting at the time, but also
some retrospective that have been published uh in in the
intervening years. So who Look witnessed a burglary in her neighborhood,
(25:44):
and so she, as as a potential witness of a crime,
was called to court to testify against these two suspects. Right.
So she's a citizen, a kindergarten teacher, doing her civic
duty to help the victim of a crime. So she
shows up in court in downtown Los Angeles UH courtroom
(26:08):
run by Judge Arthur S. Garon. The thing is she
is wearing blue flannel trousers and for the judge, this
is a big no no, right, right, right. The judge
is now completely distracted right from this, this entire original crime.
(26:30):
In his mind, there's a new crime that demands immediate attention.
And I gotta say, this guy sounds like a super curmudgeon. Yeah,
Judge Garn basically says to who, look, if you are
dressed like that in of all things trousers, you can't
testify in my court. And so he orders her to
(26:53):
leave and come back wearing what he says is appropriate
for the setting. You know, and this is the sort
of thing like, yeah, it's situational, yes, more a's and
standards change over time. Yes, what is acceptable to us
today may a hundred years ago look outrageous. Um, And
what people wear a hundred years from now made to
(27:15):
us look like the sort of thing you would wear
at the beach. I don't know, but um, you know,
I the the l A Times has images of miss Hulok.
These are these are just pants, They're long, they're not
particularly outrageous unless you are a judge, I suppose. And
they're not like ray Ver Jinko's or something you know
(27:35):
now that that truly would be an outrage. So so
he sends her home, come back, says the judge, when
you know, whatever you're wearing does not offend me. So
and she does return, doesn't she? Well, she does um
And she's quoted in the newspaper that day of saying,
you tell the judge I will stand on my rights
if he orders me to change into address, I won't
(27:57):
do it. I like slacks. They're comfortable. I know. I mean,
who more sensible and utilitarian than a kindergarten teacher? Right,
you were chasing five year olds all the time, Slacks
seemed like a good choice to me. The judge, for
his part, said quote, I don't set styles, but costumes
(28:20):
acceptable at the beach are not acceptable in formal courtroom procedure.
Slacks are not the proper attiring court. It's tough sometimes
to be a judge. Poor, poor poor judge. That's so.
I mean, that has some stinky subtext, you know, like, hey,
sorry for me, guys. And I get I get the
(28:43):
idea that in nanny courts in the US and abroad,
there is a uh an expected level of of a
little bit of formality, right, I mean, sure, you know
it's it's courts. Like I've been to court. I dressed
up a little miser than I might otherwise because you're
a formal setting. But um yeah, I mean this wasn't
(29:05):
a casual outfit. And even the detectives, it's not like
they were The detectives who were investigating the crime were
the ones who brought her forth, so they didn't see
there was a problem. But the judge center Off said,
quote again, when the young woman returned, then I'll be
prepared to test just how far I can go and
maintaining the dignity in my courtroom. But who look on
(29:28):
on her way out, said and I'll not sacrifice my
comfort and freedom to the extent of wearing a dress. Uh.
And then the the l A Times goes on to say,
Miss Houlak retorted as she clicked out of the Hall
of Justice in her blue flannel slacks. Um, so you know,
there was a little back and forth between the two
of them, and who looks ordered to return, which she does.
(29:49):
She returns to court five days later when the rescheduling
has happened, And the thing is she is wearing, Ben,
can you guess what she's wearing? Uh gonna go out
on a crazy limb and say are they slacks? They
are slacks? Yes, yeah, who who look returned she's stuck
to her guns. And uh, let me just quote a
little bit from the Times. So, in a scathing denunciation
(30:12):
of slacks, which he prosaically termed pants as courtroom attire
for women, Garn yesterday again forbade Helen, who look kindergarten
teacher to testify as a witness while dressed in a
green and orange leisure attire. And the paper goes on
to quote Garen again, the last time you were in
(30:32):
this court dressed as you are now and reclining on
your neck on the back of your chair, you drew
more attention from spectators, prisoners and court attaches than the
legal business at hand. You were requested to return and
garb acceptable to courtroom procedure. Today you come back dressed
in pants and openly defined the court and its duties
(30:53):
to conduct judicial proceedings. It's time a decision was reached
on this matter and on the power the court has
to maintain what it considers orderly conduct. And here's where,
here's where we get to the threat. Yeah, so he
wraps up and says, the court hereby orders and directs
you to return tomorrow in accepted dress. So this is
(31:15):
for the third time, the third visit. Garin says, if
you insist on wearing slacks again, you will be prevented
from testifying because that would hinder the administration of justice,
but be prepared to be punished according to law for
contempt of court. And this is not an argument that
will sound unfamiliar to many of our female listeners. Right.
(31:35):
I don't know if you've ever been in a schoolroom
or you have any uh nieces especially who get told
their attire is too distracting in school. The boys can't
concentrate on school, right, they can't do their work because
you know, the women and their bodies are too distracting.
It puts the onus of regulating men's attention on what
(31:59):
women choose to air. Which that's a that's a burden
and not one that I think it's fair. But this
isn't something new. This isn't something that school kids today
are dealing with. It goes back here to the thirties
where the judge is saying, you showed up here in
your blue flannel slacks, ma'am, and it was too distracting.
The prisoners, the court attache, everyone was just looking at you.
(32:19):
Instead of thinking about the law, which is entirely absurd. Also,
by the way, Hulick is fantastic in interviews, and the
author of the l A Times piece is having so
much fun writing this too. The you know, sort of
vivid language that they're using heavily implies to me that
(32:41):
they are also on who looks side from the way
they write. And she has this one quote where she says, listen,
I've worn slacks since I was fifteen. I don't own
address except a formal If he wants me to appear
in a formal gown, that's okay with me. I'll come
back and slacks. And if he puts me in jail,
(33:02):
I hope it will help to free women forever of
anti slackis um. I love that. Yeah, anti slackism. Yeah,
it's it's on its surface ridiculous, but is entirely the point. Right,
And there's one crucial piece that we we should make
sure to hit. In all of the cases we've discussed,
(33:26):
when these people have been arrested, it was not uncommon
for them to be forced to put on her dress
in jail or in prison. Right, Yeah, you got to prison,
you put on whatever the prison tells you to put
on and that's what happened to Hulok. Right, So she
showed up the third day after the judge said please
come back, and she was again wearing slacks. So yeah,
(33:49):
at this point there is a little bit of contrarianism,
but it's in who looks defense, uh, not illegal in
any way there are Again, this is a situation where
there are no laws preventing the wearing the explicit wearing
of trousers or slacks. This reveals a lot more about
garin where he just feels the propriety of his courtroom
has been violated. And so when Huluk is arrested, it's
(34:11):
not explicitly for wearing slacks. She is arrested for contempt
of court. And let's take a second there, because contempt
of court, which is a fairly familiar phrase, I think
to anyone, even if you don't have a lot of
legal experience, you've heard that phrase being used. Yeah, Casey,
you've heard that, right of course. For more Casey, have
(34:34):
you ever held someone in contempt on this show? Oh,
I'm gonna have to plead the fifth on that one.
Would would that be like contempt of producer? Yes? Yeah,
I've seen the way he's raised eyebrows through that window.
We've gotten close. We've gotten close and sometimes you know, uh,
it's a it's a very close working relationship. And I'm
(34:54):
not gonna lie, man, there's we've been a logger heads before,
you know, we have. We have different opinions, but I
like to think at the end of the day, there's
some there's some mutual respect. Where am I going with us? No, Casey,
like barely? How about Ben? Now you're starting to get
to like contempt of sitting co host. Let me let
(35:15):
me just say, can I be the one to say?
Please Casey on the case? Hey, So, contempt of court
in in actual courtroom proceedings is pretty broad. All contempt
of court really means is that you have been seen
or someone some individual has been seen as being disobedient
(35:37):
or somehow disrespectful towards the court and its officers, even
as loose as define the authority, or somehow offending the
dignity of court. So people can be held in contempt
for any number of things, right, speaking out of turn,
very loudly, insisting on that being combat out of with
(36:00):
the judge, things like that. Right, this contempt charge comes
about because, as you said, Christopher, it's not really, it's
not against the law for people who wear pants. So
the story of Houlik and the trousers in the courtroom
almost ends there. She serves her five days in prison,
(36:24):
and a couple of months later comes back finally to
testify as to what she witnessed in this burglary. Remember
that's the original reason she was in court was to
help out a fellow citizen. Um she volunteered to come
as a witness. Yeah, But at the time when she
came back a couple of months later, basically I think
she felt her point had been made, and she did
(36:45):
arrive in address. So I couldn't find anything in the
Times where she was quoted as to this. But maybe
I'm speculating here that she she felt, Okay, now I'm
I am here in court too, really or of a
civic purpose, and perhaps at the moment my anti slacktivist
(37:06):
pushback is getting in the way of doing that. I see,
I see your point there. It also didn't hurt that
hundreds of people wrote to the courthouse protesting the treatment
of Helen Hulick, and eventually this led to well, this
played a role in the judge's contempt ruling being overturned
or is contempt citation? Yeah, so she she did have
(37:29):
to serve some time, but you know, an official record
expunged and all that. Yeah, yeah, and what what style?
I just I love the way Elen hulik Is is
talking to reporters this entire time. We've got the Los
Angeles Times articles from the time, and in addition to
those great quotes which you've been so ably worked your
(37:50):
way through, we've also got images of Hulk, so you
can judge for yourself how outrageous is this outfit. Will
post a link to that on Ridiculous Historians, the Facebook
group for for folks who are enjoying the show. You
can find lots of other like minded people and um
all sorts of ancillary stuff about about these things. But Ben, yes,
(38:12):
I've told you two stories. You've told me one that's true.
I have one more, and I think you're going to
like it. This is the story of Emma snod Grass.
So she became when she was only seventeen years old,
huge news story throughout the United States because despite being
(38:33):
arrested multiple times in Boston for wearing pants, she persisted
She continued to do that, and her father was an
official with the New York City Police. Each time she
was arrested, she would be forced to you know, put
on address, and then she would be returned to New
(38:55):
York from Boston. Quote properly attired. But then fast forward
a few weeks, she's right back. She's taking further wearing
a frock coat, glazed cap, striped pantaloons and so on.
And uh, someone quoted, I think this was the Boston
Harold said, has the appearance of a quite a good
(39:16):
looking young man, and the Boston Harold had been reporting
on her multiple times. They also said that she would
be acting in what they felt was manner most appropriate
for young ne'er do wells. They said she quote used
to circulate in all the drinking houses, made several violent
attempts to talk horse that's some slang we missed, and
(39:40):
do other things for which quote unquote fast boys are noted.
She had called herself George Green and gotten a job
at a clothing store in New York. She was arrested there,
and each time she was arrested, they you know, make
her take off the clothes she's comfortable with put on
a dress and then they send her back to her dad.
(40:01):
I think it's because he is in law enforcement that
she is not having to deal with some of the
same treatment, or the same level of treatment that a
lot of other people in her situation had. So Snodgrass though,
I mean her story, we're back in the eighteen fifties
for this, right. Oh yes, that's absolutely correct. Uh, she
(40:23):
was really making headlines in eighteen fifty two or so.
I still am. I am curious about what talking horse is.
I imagine it's it's a talking smack. I don't know,
talking horse. Uh yeah, just maybe maybe um rough talk,
boys talk or something like that. I don't know. Well,
(40:46):
it's funny. One thing in that that newspaper that you
quoted about her appearance. Another thing that they used to
describe her. They said, quote, she is a practical woman's
rights girl, as though you know, and you know what
that means, you know, basically just capital w capital our
woman's rights and oh goodness, yea. The fragility of like
(41:12):
that patriarchy really exposes itself when you're so threatened by
a woman who's choosing to wear pants, but to the
point where she's arrested and it's it's tricky. Um. Also
the condescension that is just dripping off that phrase and
the pearl clutching, you know. It's. Yeah, this story is
(41:33):
important because it encounters some other larger problematic things about
the US of that time, you know, that remain problematic
in the modern day. Uh, you know, the idea of
how someone wishes to identify as an individual. Right, going
back to Dr Walker's thing, Um, maybe people should do
what they want where what they want. You know. She
(41:54):
had also been continually sort of rebelling against her father,
who was either a captain or assistant captain in New York.
When she was released to her father's recognianance, one time,
she just high tailed it back to Boston. She was
dressed in what were items of traditional women's clothing, and
(42:16):
she went to a place called the Washington Coffee House,
where she had rented a room. She left the place
in women's clothes, according to one report, but returned wearing
clothes that would be traditionally associated with dudes. I think
every time somebody gave her these you know, ridiculous charges
(42:36):
or arrest it sort of inspired her to double down.
You know what I mean, Well, I mean what I
what I think it's just really fun about Um the
Emma Snodgrass story is that, so she's a teenager, right,
show me a teenager who's not doing rebellious things in
the context of a society or a family. So you
can you can look at this story as just sort
of the antics of a of a teenaged person, which
(42:58):
is often celebrated when it's a young boy or a
teenage guy. Right. So we look at people like Huckleberry Finn,
for instance, if we're talking similar time frames, who is
really celebrated for thumbing his nose at societal rules and
doing what he thinks is best and living the life
he wants to live in that sort of American folk
(43:20):
hero way. But the ability to operate in that mode
is often extended only to men, right. And so especially
with Emma Snodgrass, some of what we've talked about today
dealt primarily with dress and just fashion, but Um Snodgrass
and and her case really it veers not only into
dress but also action and what's appropriate for one gender,
(43:45):
what's the way to behave That's something that I think
it illustrates really well that situations like this where we're
policing dress and what's appropriate. It runs the gamut, and
and there's so so much crossover and so many is
some's made on the parts of the authorities about you know,
(44:05):
what could be a slippery slope for instance, Yeah, exactly.
And this slippery slope fear can so often be trotted
out when people don't have a otherwise valid reason for
their problem. Okay, this is a terrible example vaguely related.
It's it's similar to the situations wherein every year two
(44:29):
in the US, there's going to be a usually a politician,
one strip or another who says A and B and
C is going wrong. Things are really going terribly And
part of that is because people are saying happy Holidays
instead of Merry Christmas. And it's a slippery slope that
will lead us on the road to ruin. You know
(44:50):
what I mean, we will we will say happy holidays
one week, next week, dogs and cats sleeping together. We're
on the path paved with good intentions. St too inferno.
And it's weird because that kind of escalation of an argument,
at least as it's applied to you know, some of
the fragile, masculine patriarchs of the day. Here, it seems
(45:14):
silly when we look back with the benefit of retrospect,
but we also have to remember as ridiculous as these
forces were when they were persecuting these people, they were
really messing with, in some cases, ruining these people's lives.
You know. Yeah, it's no light thing to go to jail.
It's no. Yeah, it's not something a lot of people
(45:35):
do for fun, right. Most people, uh, if they want
to go somewhere for a weekend, will probably choose like
the beach or the mountains. Yeah, And there are plenty
of ways we can draw lines from what was going
on in the forties, fifties, and sixties, and in the
hula case in the thirties, all the way up to
today in in other countries and other societies that you know,
(45:57):
maybe have more restrictive traditions of what women wear. But
even today, people make assumptions based on what they think
a person should be wearing, or based on what they're wearing,
make assumptions about the kind of person they are or
the kind of threat they pose. And the authorities can
act in one way, individuals can act in another. It's
(46:18):
ridiculous to talk about some of these things as being
kind of lighthearted and silly, but they have real ramifications
in both a historical and contemporary context. And I'd like
to save a little bit of Emma Snodgrass's story for
another day, because I think we could make her life
story its own episode. What do you say, She's a
(46:39):
she's a solid case. There's there's a lot to dig
into with with Snodgrass. So that is just the beginning
of the snod Grass story. And that is the conclusion
of today's episode, but not our show. You can find Casey, Noel, Christopher,
some of our other guests and I on this show
twice a week until Big Plaid shuts us down. I
(47:00):
can't believe you brought that back. Uh. And in the meantime,
I like to thank you so much for joining us today,
Christopher haciotas dude, thanks for coming back on the show.
You know you always you always sound a little bit
irritated with us, but you keep returning do I? Oh,
I don't mean to. I look, I I just wanted to, somehow,
(47:21):
some way get on a podcast and talk about the
Museum of the American house Cat, which I did at
the beginning of this episode and I'm doing again now.
And if I had to go through the uh the
rigamar role of learning and really digging into some really
cool history and sharing it with you, Ben and the
rest of you ridiculous historians. I'm only happy well said,
(47:45):
well said, so thank you. Likewise, Christopher, it's always it's
always a pleasure. Every time you are on the show
and one of us is abroad or traveling, the person
who missed out gets just a tinge of envy because,
as you know, our partner got to hang out with you,
which is it's kind of a big deal between Nolan.
(48:06):
I'm just gonna be honest, let's all get together. Then
sometimes yeah, let's all get together. Let's get the band
back together. So, as Christopher pointed out, we are all
over the internet. You can find us some ridiculous historians
of Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can
find us on Instagram. We've often started wrapping up the
show with questions, what are some other pioneering people in
(48:30):
this in this same kind of thematic sphere, What are
something that you know of that you think your fellow
listeners would enjoy learning more about, Because again, we can
look back in this in and say, regardless of what
year it is, there's so many other crazy things wrong
(48:51):
with the world. Why would you care that someone decided
to wear pants? You know what I mean. But we
have to remember these these kinds of battles, their heart won,
and they make a difference. They make a tremendous impact
on the world in which we live today. Then I
totally agree with you. And as we wrap up, as
(49:11):
we both stand up, I don't care if you're wearing
pants or not. Okay, well you might. You might want
to leave before me then, because it was yeah, all right,
I'm out of here. We'll see you next time, folks.
For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome
(00:27):
to the show Ridiculous Historians. We are so happy that
you have joined us today. My name is Ben am
was always joined with our super producer Casey pegram My
trustee co host nol Is on some Adventures and I
have the immense pleasure of welcoming back to the show
(00:51):
our one of our favorite recurring guest, longtime friend of
mine in real life, and then a longtime friend of
the show folks. Hello to Christopher haciotis Ben Casey. Thank
you so much for having me back. It's a real pleasure. Yeah,
I'm glad we worked out that cookie thing. I don't
know what you're talking about, so so uh the bit
(01:12):
of trivia. Here, as Casey and Christopher and I record
today's episode, we are all wearing pants nowadays. That's like
a regular thing you expect when you go out into
the world, that you'll see someone wearing pants. Yeah, I
saw like, at least I don't know, tend people wearing
(01:33):
pants today. Um, they've really caught on, probably more, I
don't know. Yeah. Let me let me paint a picture
though for listeners. Um, I'm sitting here in the studio.
Band is in the studio with me. Casey is right
outside the studio manning the computer and the and the
knobs and the switches and all those things. Um, I
can see. Uh, let's see so our our studio is
(01:55):
covered in sort of a dark gray milk crate sound
absorbing substance. We've got some pens and coffee cups on
the table, We've got microphones. There's a floor lamp behind you,
floor lamp um, some plants, various housecats, little dragon over there.
And then I see sitting across the table from me,
(02:17):
a Rakish gentleman in a blue and brownish plaid shirt,
a little you know, kind of adventurous facial hair, and
I cus, how dare you know? Why? Well, let's move
on outside. I out out the window. I see another
gentleman with some adventurous facial hair and you know, just
(02:39):
really alluring good looks. Also a plaid with a brown
and blue a little more white than maybe yours. Ben,
It's no secret big Plaid runs this podcast. Well, I
don't see, though I'm looking. I don't know if you
guys are wearing pants. Oh, but you know what, it's fine.
(03:00):
I could see all your hands. So I know that
you're not hiding any weapons or no knives or guns whatever.
But you know what I think, in this day, if
you were not wearing pants, if you were wearing something
maybe a little more unexpected, it would still be fine.
That's that's right. If you're wearing something more unexpected, you
will have people react accordingly, barrel um, I guess like
(03:23):
a big pilot monkeys. Yeah. One thing one't common alternative
for a lot of people would be a kilt. Ye like,
it's some people very popular on certain times the year.
I was just up in Franklin, North Carolina, recently, and
they have a Museum of the American Tartan I believe
it's what it was called, the whole museum dedicated to
(03:44):
h two kilts and Scottish patterns. And did you go?
I walked past, it was closed. I was closed. I
was on my way to the Museum of the American
house Cat, which is a little further north in the
North Carolina Mountains. That's not why we're here today, though,
But I would incur anyone listening who's in the vicinity
of western North Carolina, northern Georgia, eastern Tennessee in that
(04:07):
sort of smokey mountain area. Go check out the Museum
of the American house Cat. I am ac on board
and don't know why I haven't done that earlier. Can
I just tell you there's a mummified cat? Yes? Please,
thank you? Now I have to go. Also, just before
we move on, is it is it a pretty robust museum?
Is it something that you could spend a few hours in?
(04:30):
You could? You could? People do love cats. Um, it
is made up for what it lacks in breadth by
significant depth. Okay, there we go. It's a very very
well thought out answer. I'm impressed. I thought about the
Museum of the American house Cat a good amount of
the past week. So so you're you're right. Today we
(04:52):
are regrettably not diving into the fascinating history. Ben. Actually,
you know what, I did bring it up for a reason.
Can I retroactively make that tangent relevant? Yes? Oh? Yes,
because at the Museum of the American Housecat, who is
I promise not a sponsor of this show, but probably
should be. With as much as I've mentioned them in
the past couple of minutes, Um, there are really really
(05:13):
charming paintings of cats wearing say dresses, frilly dresses, frocks, mocks,
you know, any sort of petticoat, ball gowns. Maybe, so
I bring up the idea of a cat wearing a dress, because, um,
sometimes people think it's inappropriate for certain people to wear
(05:34):
certain things. Yes, absolutely, I was was that like ya
sitting for Noel's like tangent, I kind of tie it in. Okay,
I thought you did a great job. Yeah, this is
this is probably one of the best ones we've had
on this show. Uh so surround best. Noel has a
lot to live up to. I do as well. It
(05:56):
is true, Christopher, that we see so very often throughout history,
we see the way that people communicate through dress, or
we see the way that dress is perceived or enforced.
Right like here in the US nowadays, if someone is
(06:20):
just walking around in public, then other than covering you know,
let's be honest, like Genitalia and and probably nipples counting
there too, nipples, buttocks, right, other than covering those areas,
it's pretty much anything goes. You can kind of wear
what you want. I mean, I to inject a little
(06:41):
bit of socio political cultural reality into that. Many of
us who maybe are you know, white men, for instance,
can get away with stuff absolutely. People from different communities
get polased all the time for what they're wearing when
they get profiled. Yeah, but that is that kind of discrimination,
and that kind of profiling is not legal. It's just
(07:04):
it's just this country does a piss poor job of
actually following the letter of the law in the in
these regards. And you're right, because uh, privilege is a
huge is a huge problematic part of this thing. There's
also throughout the span of human civilization there are examples
(07:24):
of certain clothing types being restricted to certain people based
on socio economic or socio political cast system a hierarchy
for lack of a better word. And today's story is
about one of the most ridiculous related uh, series of
events that that we found that applies in this And
(07:47):
this is something that you introduced me to via our
fantastic peer podcast, Stuff Mom Never Told You. Yeah, Stuff
Mom Never Told You is a really terrific show. It's
got a long history here at the company and has
been running for ten plus years um and really dives
into a wide variety of issues relating to a myriad
of things that women in today's society face and touches
(08:10):
on history, politics, culture, entertainment, and it really runs the gamut.
So if you're interested in a really well researched, well
thought out conversational show about that, and if it sounds
up your alley, check out Stuff Mom Never Told You listeners,
if you haven't already. But yeah, as we were kind
of poking through the stuff mon I Ever told you archives,
(08:31):
we came across a piece written by former colleague of
ours and it sparked the idea to really dig into
some of these stories about women who have been arrested
for wearing pants. That's why we've been talking about pants
so much, and that's that's it. To be absolutely clear,
the crime they were arrested for was not like stealing
(08:52):
a carriage while wearing pants. It was just wearing pants.
I will also add that these arrests took place in
the United States. Yes, so this is not this isn't like, Okay,
we're talking about some fairly repressive regime in um, you know,
a part of the world that maybe has traditions that
(09:14):
would really really overtly frown on that talking about the
United States. And we're also yeah, we're also not talking
about religious splinter groups or very conservative communities that are
isolated from mainstream US culture. We're talking about the regular,
everyday Jane's and Joe's of this country, and Chris for you,
(09:38):
and I looked through and found a couple of examples.
I propose that we round robin them, you know. And
I also felt, to be completely clear, I felt so
just baffled and and beflummixed to learn that this was
a real thing. It seemed like, you know, and this
(10:03):
is this just highlights MI tremendous ignorance in this regard,
but it seemed like something that people would consider a
big deal much earlier in history. Because these cases are
some of them are distressingly recent. And that's the thing.
These are cases, right, So today we're not talking about
(10:23):
the woman who was arrested for wearing pants. We're talking
about the women, multiple women, in multiple instances, over hundreds
of years in this country, who are arrested specifically for
sporting pants, trousers, uh, you know, dungarees, whatever you want
to call them, pieces of fabric wrapped around two legs
(10:44):
rather than worn as one long sheath like a dress. Right.
The situations range from you know, humorous, the heartbreaking, because
every person we're discussing in today's episode is pretty much
a he in in how they stood up to the
prejudice and discrimination of the time. Christopher, being that you
(11:09):
are returning guests here, would would you like to kick
us off today? Yeah, I'd love to. I'd love to
tell you about the story of Mary Tilts. And there
was a woman who lived in New Jersey in the
mid eighteen hundreds, so we're talking about a good long
time ago. At the time, it was much more traditional
for a woman to wear really kind of full dress, right,
So if you think back to that sort of Victorian fashion,
(11:32):
probably what you're thinking when you're thinking those CPIA toned
photos is fairly accurate. You know, corsets, petticoats, tights, hats,
you know, sort of that Bodice War and a tight outfit.
Mary Tillotson, though, going back to the eight forties, really
started kind of shortening her dresses, at least in eighteen
(11:53):
forty two. The historical record, and a lot of this
comes from a couple of different pieces. Um forgive the
long titles, but that's what academics tend to do. If
this sort of thing sounds fun to you dig into
the Freedom Suit, Feminism and Dress Reform in the United
States seventy five. That's a journal article written by Amy
Kestleman back in uh. There's also a lot of information
(12:15):
that we got from the two thousand three book by
Patricia and Cunningham, Reforming Women's Fashion eighteen fifty to nineteen
twenty Politics, Health and Art. And I say politics, health
and art because that's actually at the heart of Mary
Tillotson's arrest. So the reason that she was changing her
(12:36):
mode of dress, shortening her dress, you know, making it shorter,
taking about a foot off, and switching to what was
known as reform dress. The reform dress was a specific
style where a woman would wear trousers and a short
dress over it. It looked a little bit sort of
like a what we might think of as a work outfits.
(12:59):
This was for health reasons. So Mary Tillotson was part
of a movement called the Dress Reform Society adopting reform dress.
Her impetus was that she was suffering from dyspepsia, indigestion,
really poor health, and thought that if I loosened some
of the scarb it might really offer some health benefits.
(13:22):
And for her it did. The thing is, Mary Tillotson
was out in public in Newark in eighteen forties and
she was arrested. The other thing about that is it
wasn't illegal, you know. And this this calls back a
little bit ben to what you mentioned, how there's this
divide between cultural norms and what is or isn't legal.
(13:45):
Mary Tillotson was arrested for wearing pants, not because it
was against the law, but because the police officer in Newark,
New Jersey, assumed it was against the law. He thought,
surely there must be a law against a woman wearing trousers.
Let me lock this woman up. And that's that's the
(14:05):
thing we have to emphasize here. She was arrested and
was doing nothing wrong, and it wasn't as if she were,
you know, just sort of hassled on the street side
and then let go with a warning or whatever. Like.
They took her in, right, yeah, arrested, spent the night
in prison, was eventually released because I was found to
(14:28):
be violating no laws, you know. But that's the thing
that that's what's tricky. I think a lot of times
we talked about interactions with police and the courts. Um.
You know, if a police officer takes you into custody,
it's not like you can just immediately say hey, wait
a minute, there's no law and walk out. You still
have to spend time in prison, You still have to
go through the legal appeals. Like there's a huge hassle
(14:51):
involved in all this stuff, all based solely on one
man's assumption that this this violation of social norms also
carried with an event lation of the law, which is
it's ridiculous, right, it's ridiculous, and and that there is
no system in place at the time too, then immediately
refute those claims, you know, mechanism. Yeah and so so.
(15:14):
Mary Tillison spent time in prison for wearing pants. But
this wasn't just a personal thing for her. Till Itson.
Actually I mentioned that the reform dress styles of trousers
and short dresses for health reasons. It's something that she
adopted as a cause for pretty much the rest of
her life. She helped form the Dress Reform Society in
(15:36):
eighteen seventy the American Free Dress League in eighteen seventy five. Um,
you know, she was part of a movement of really
trying to push forth a more liberated agenda. She was
part of a movement in eighteen sixty eight to try
to vote, which at the time women were not permitted
to do in the United States, among many other people,
and she she even cataloged her whole endeavor in a
(16:01):
book that she wrote called History of the First thirty
five Years of the Science Costume Movement in the United States.
And science Costume is uh, kind of a funny name,
but it was another term for the reformed dress um
outfit because the idea was based on supposedly scientific principles
that given a little more freedom of movement, women would
(16:23):
be healthier. It plays into and some of the authors
of the books that I mentioned earlier bring this up
that Tillotson was part of an early feminist movement and
her peers in that that reform dress movement didn't endeavor
really to push through political reform or economic reform through policy.
It was more to present themselves in their lives as
(16:46):
modes of being and to inspire other people on an
individual basis to adopt that way of living, that way
of dress. And uh, you know, it was it was
a that that specific reform dress. And there are certainly
fashion historians who are much more steep in this than
I am. It only lasted for a couple of years,
and then fashion sort of swung back in the other
(17:08):
direction in the eighteen um sixties, I believe. But it
was the start of something. It was the start of something.
But it also was not the end of till Itson's story,
because she eventually moved to a place Violand New Jersey.
Violin had at the time of reputation as a more
progressive town, at least more progressive than the average bear,
(17:32):
I guess. And you could wear pants. You could wear pants,
which is still so crazy, right, uh? And at that time,
apparently it was. It was considered less controversial. As a
local historian put it, the area was more tolerant of
her practice, and it was considered in its day in
(17:53):
the eighteen sixties, it was considered a quote hotbed of
liberal activity. But I like the idea that until Itson
was able to find a place where she could dress
and live as she wanted to live. And while some
people will say that till Itson's medical interests like the
(18:15):
so called water cure and stuff, well they may say
that was a little bit I don't know, quackish, or
maybe the science wasn't a million percent there. The truth
of the matter is that her contributions for bravery had
to be inspiring to so many people around the country
who probably looked at this and thought, you know, well,
(18:36):
why do I have to wear a dress? And that
happened in the eighteen forties, and this is you know,
it kind of pushes against the idea of America has
always been the place where where people can do what
they want and are free to live the life they live, right,
you know, it's it's there's there's always that that duality
right of the United States, as it could be in
the United States, as individuals experience it sometimes mm hmmm.
(19:01):
And then you know, while we're in this period, I
propose that we we stay in this area time wise,
right chronologically, and then we go to another Mary. Let's
go to Dr Mary Edwards Walker. She is the first
person to receive the Congressional Medal of Honor in eighteen
(19:23):
sixty five for her service during the Civil War. She
didn't just wake up one day and say I'm going
to wear this pair of pants. In the late eighteen hundreds,
she started wearing clothing overwhelmingly wearing clothing that at the
time was considered clothing only for men, and this led
to her getting arrested multiple times. She has a great
(19:47):
quotation that our colleague Kristen Conger brought to our attention
in an article for Stuff Mom Never Told You, where
Dr Walker says, I am the original new woman. I
have prepared the way for the girl in knickerbockers is
back when people used to say knickerbockers all the time.
And Dr Walker's journey is pretty amazing. In eighteen sixty six,
(20:13):
she actually became president of the organization you mentioned earlier,
the National Dress Reform Association, and she was, you know,
getting arrested by these jerk police officers. She would get
ridiculed from people not just opponents of the dress reform movement,
(20:34):
but also people who had advocated some degree of it,
who had said, look, I just want to wear pants
walking around with a suit. That's a bit extreme, don't
you think, doctor Well, I mean that that's one of
the struggles, right, that that she and so many other
people who are looking to push society forward in a
in a way that they think would benefit more people
(20:55):
always struggle with right. It's it's incrementalism versus massive sweet change.
It's yeah, I get you, but do you have to
go that far? Which works for some people and doesn't
for others. A lot of people want to take that
moon shot. I guess yeah, I think I think you're
absolutely right there. Walker's story does not end entirely happily,
(21:16):
but it ends with a sort of prescience. So by
the time she passes away in nineteen nineteen, she has
been somewhat isolated from the larger feminist movement because she
was seeing and this comes from a great article on
weird history dot Org by R. E. Fulton. Dr. Walker
(21:39):
was seen as not this pioneer, not this harbinger of
a new era of equality, but she was seen more
as an eccentric and an odd duck because the people
who would have logically been her allies and her partners
in this sort of movement, we're concerned earned that her
(22:01):
dress was so unusual for the time that she was
weakening the the arguments that they were they were attempting
to have the changes they were attempting to make, so
they would think, you know, you're you're taking it too far.
People should wear what they want, but why are you
walking around in a top coat and a hat that
(22:23):
mail doctors wear, and she continued to say, well, you
know what, women being people should be able to address
however they want, work wherever they want, and you know,
do whatever they want in general. So walker story ended
with with another quote this is from were History out
(22:45):
a word that I thought was pretty powerful. She says,
I have got to die before people will know who
I am and what I have done. It is a
shame that people who lead reforms in this world are
not appreciated until after they are dead. Then the world
pays its tributes. And for a time, um, you know,
we said that she passed away in her name was
(23:08):
deleted from the Army Medal of Honor role in nine seventeen,
and it wasn't restored until nineteen seventy seven. That's really
a shame. I mean, it's a shame. For a while,
it's heartening that that her stories come back up and
resurfaced that I think, in particular, her story really underscores
(23:30):
how malleable the stories we tell as a society can be. Right.
Who we lionize, who we put on pedestals, These are
always always, always conscious choices. It's not like someone is
intrinsically a hero or not. Right, it's it's those of
us around them who tell stories about them, especially after
(23:53):
they're gone, and kind of what we imbue them with. Yeah,
I mean, but that's what that's why we're talking about
these women. That's why we sit in these booths and
chat about all these different figures, because it's it's really
important to kind of uncover who they are, what they
mean to the world, what they mean to societies and
cultures which can change. And also a lot of it's
(24:15):
really ridiculous. It's easy though, right when we are talking
about history to say this is the way things were
a hundred and fifty years ago, this is the way
It's not like that anymore. But let's let's jump ahead
a couple more decades, right, Let's let's go straight into
(24:35):
the twentieth century. And I'd like to talk to you
and uh and and listeners, if you haven't heard history,
it's this one, thankfully, is a little more lighthearted. There's
no um serious repercussions. But in In Night there's a
woman named Helen Huluk. She went through something really similar,
you know, And I think a lot of times when
(24:56):
people think about social reformers or people who are pushing
society to move forward. They say these are professional activists
or their agitators, or like this is their primary goal
is to really disrupt. Right, But we're talking about a
kindergarten teacher and a kindergarten teacher who wasn't even pushed
(25:19):
into this activist role that I'm about to kind of
lay out for you. She was trying to do a
good thing. So Helen hulk l a resident, and a
lot of what we know about who Look comes from
the l A Times reporting at the time, but also
some retrospective that have been published uh in in the
intervening years. So who Look witnessed a burglary in her neighborhood,
(25:44):
and so she, as as a potential witness of a crime,
was called to court to testify against these two suspects. Right.
So she's a citizen, a kindergarten teacher, doing her civic
duty to help the victim of a crime. So she
shows up in court in downtown Los Angeles UH courtroom
(26:08):
run by Judge Arthur S. Garon. The thing is she
is wearing blue flannel trousers and for the judge, this
is a big no no, right, right, right. The judge
is now completely distracted right from this, this entire original crime.
(26:30):
In his mind, there's a new crime that demands immediate attention.
And I gotta say, this guy sounds like a super curmudgeon. Yeah,
Judge Garn basically says to who, look, if you are
dressed like that in of all things trousers, you can't
testify in my court. And so he orders her to
(26:53):
leave and come back wearing what he says is appropriate
for the setting. You know, and this is the sort
of thing like, yeah, it's situational, yes, more a's and
standards change over time. Yes, what is acceptable to us
today may a hundred years ago look outrageous. Um, And
what people wear a hundred years from now made to
(27:15):
us look like the sort of thing you would wear
at the beach. I don't know, but um, you know,
I the the l A Times has images of miss Hulok.
These are these are just pants, They're long, they're not
particularly outrageous unless you are a judge, I suppose. And
they're not like ray Ver Jinko's or something you know
(27:35):
now that that truly would be an outrage. So so
he sends her home, come back, says the judge, when
you know, whatever you're wearing does not offend me. So
and she does return, doesn't she? Well, she does um
And she's quoted in the newspaper that day of saying,
you tell the judge I will stand on my rights
if he orders me to change into address, I won't
(27:57):
do it. I like slacks. They're comfortable. I know. I mean,
who more sensible and utilitarian than a kindergarten teacher? Right,
you were chasing five year olds all the time, Slacks
seemed like a good choice to me. The judge, for
his part, said quote, I don't set styles, but costumes
(28:20):
acceptable at the beach are not acceptable in formal courtroom procedure.
Slacks are not the proper attiring court. It's tough sometimes
to be a judge. Poor, poor poor judge. That's so.
I mean, that has some stinky subtext, you know, like, hey,
sorry for me, guys. And I get I get the
(28:43):
idea that in nanny courts in the US and abroad,
there is a uh an expected level of of a
little bit of formality, right, I mean, sure, you know
it's it's courts. Like I've been to court. I dressed
up a little miser than I might otherwise because you're
a formal setting. But um yeah, I mean this wasn't
(29:05):
a casual outfit. And even the detectives, it's not like
they were The detectives who were investigating the crime were
the ones who brought her forth, so they didn't see
there was a problem. But the judge center Off said,
quote again, when the young woman returned, then I'll be
prepared to test just how far I can go and
maintaining the dignity in my courtroom. But who look on
(29:28):
on her way out, said and I'll not sacrifice my
comfort and freedom to the extent of wearing a dress. Uh.
And then the the l A Times goes on to say,
Miss Houlak retorted as she clicked out of the Hall
of Justice in her blue flannel slacks. Um, so you know,
there was a little back and forth between the two
of them, and who looks ordered to return, which she does.
(29:49):
She returns to court five days later when the rescheduling
has happened, And the thing is she is wearing, Ben,
can you guess what she's wearing? Uh gonna go out
on a crazy limb and say are they slacks? They
are slacks? Yes, yeah, who who look returned she's stuck
to her guns. And uh, let me just quote a
little bit from the Times. So, in a scathing denunciation
(30:12):
of slacks, which he prosaically termed pants as courtroom attire
for women, Garn yesterday again forbade Helen, who look kindergarten
teacher to testify as a witness while dressed in a
green and orange leisure attire. And the paper goes on
to quote Garen again, the last time you were in
(30:32):
this court dressed as you are now and reclining on
your neck on the back of your chair, you drew
more attention from spectators, prisoners and court attaches than the
legal business at hand. You were requested to return and
garb acceptable to courtroom procedure. Today you come back dressed
in pants and openly defined the court and its duties
(30:53):
to conduct judicial proceedings. It's time a decision was reached
on this matter and on the power the court has
to maintain what it considers orderly conduct. And here's where,
here's where we get to the threat. Yeah, so he
wraps up and says, the court hereby orders and directs
you to return tomorrow in accepted dress. So this is
(31:15):
for the third time, the third visit. Garin says, if
you insist on wearing slacks again, you will be prevented
from testifying because that would hinder the administration of justice,
but be prepared to be punished according to law for
contempt of court. And this is not an argument that
will sound unfamiliar to many of our female listeners. Right.
(31:35):
I don't know if you've ever been in a schoolroom
or you have any uh nieces especially who get told
their attire is too distracting in school. The boys can't
concentrate on school, right, they can't do their work because
you know, the women and their bodies are too distracting.
It puts the onus of regulating men's attention on what
(31:59):
women choose to air. Which that's a that's a burden
and not one that I think it's fair. But this
isn't something new. This isn't something that school kids today
are dealing with. It goes back here to the thirties
where the judge is saying, you showed up here in
your blue flannel slacks, ma'am, and it was too distracting.
The prisoners, the court attache, everyone was just looking at you.
(32:19):
Instead of thinking about the law, which is entirely absurd. Also,
by the way, Hulick is fantastic in interviews, and the
author of the l A Times piece is having so
much fun writing this too. The you know, sort of
vivid language that they're using heavily implies to me that
(32:41):
they are also on who looks side from the way
they write. And she has this one quote where she says, listen,
I've worn slacks since I was fifteen. I don't own
address except a formal If he wants me to appear
in a formal gown, that's okay with me. I'll come
back and slacks. And if he puts me in jail,
(33:02):
I hope it will help to free women forever of
anti slackis um. I love that. Yeah, anti slackism. Yeah,
it's it's on its surface ridiculous, but is entirely the point. Right,
And there's one crucial piece that we we should make
sure to hit. In all of the cases we've discussed,
(33:26):
when these people have been arrested, it was not uncommon
for them to be forced to put on her dress
in jail or in prison. Right, Yeah, you got to prison,
you put on whatever the prison tells you to put
on and that's what happened to Hulok. Right, So she
showed up the third day after the judge said please
come back, and she was again wearing slacks. So yeah,
(33:49):
at this point there is a little bit of contrarianism,
but it's in who looks defense, uh, not illegal in
any way there are Again, this is a situation where
there are no laws preventing the wearing the explicit wearing
of trousers or slacks. This reveals a lot more about
garin where he just feels the propriety of his courtroom
has been violated. And so when Huluk is arrested, it's
(34:11):
not explicitly for wearing slacks. She is arrested for contempt
of court. And let's take a second there, because contempt
of court, which is a fairly familiar phrase, I think
to anyone, even if you don't have a lot of
legal experience, you've heard that phrase being used. Yeah, Casey,
you've heard that, right of course. For more Casey, have
(34:34):
you ever held someone in contempt on this show? Oh,
I'm gonna have to plead the fifth on that one.
Would would that be like contempt of producer? Yes? Yeah,
I've seen the way he's raised eyebrows through that window.
We've gotten close. We've gotten close and sometimes you know, uh,
it's a it's a very close working relationship. And I'm
(34:54):
not gonna lie, man, there's we've been a logger heads before,
you know, we have. We have different opinions, but I
like to think at the end of the day, there's
some there's some mutual respect. Where am I going with us? No, Casey,
like barely? How about Ben? Now you're starting to get
to like contempt of sitting co host. Let me let
(35:15):
me just say, can I be the one to say?
Please Casey on the case? Hey, So, contempt of court
in in actual courtroom proceedings is pretty broad. All contempt
of court really means is that you have been seen
or someone some individual has been seen as being disobedient
(35:37):
or somehow disrespectful towards the court and its officers, even
as loose as define the authority, or somehow offending the
dignity of court. So people can be held in contempt
for any number of things, right, speaking out of turn,
very loudly, insisting on that being combat out of with
(36:00):
the judge, things like that. Right, this contempt charge comes
about because, as you said, Christopher, it's not really, it's
not against the law for people who wear pants. So
the story of Houlik and the trousers in the courtroom
almost ends there. She serves her five days in prison,
(36:24):
and a couple of months later comes back finally to
testify as to what she witnessed in this burglary. Remember
that's the original reason she was in court was to
help out a fellow citizen. Um she volunteered to come
as a witness. Yeah, But at the time when she
came back a couple of months later, basically I think
she felt her point had been made, and she did
(36:45):
arrive in address. So I couldn't find anything in the
Times where she was quoted as to this. But maybe
I'm speculating here that she she felt, Okay, now I'm
I am here in court too, really or of a
civic purpose, and perhaps at the moment my anti slacktivist
(37:06):
pushback is getting in the way of doing that. I see,
I see your point there. It also didn't hurt that
hundreds of people wrote to the courthouse protesting the treatment
of Helen Hulick, and eventually this led to well, this
played a role in the judge's contempt ruling being overturned
or is contempt citation? Yeah, so she she did have
(37:29):
to serve some time, but you know, an official record
expunged and all that. Yeah, yeah, and what what style?
I just I love the way Elen hulik Is is
talking to reporters this entire time. We've got the Los
Angeles Times articles from the time, and in addition to
those great quotes which you've been so ably worked your
(37:50):
way through, we've also got images of Hulk, so you
can judge for yourself how outrageous is this outfit. Will
post a link to that on Ridiculous Historians, the Facebook
group for for folks who are enjoying the show. You
can find lots of other like minded people and um
all sorts of ancillary stuff about about these things. But Ben, yes,
(38:12):
I've told you two stories. You've told me one that's true.
I have one more, and I think you're going to
like it. This is the story of Emma snod Grass.
So she became when she was only seventeen years old,
huge news story throughout the United States because despite being
(38:33):
arrested multiple times in Boston for wearing pants, she persisted
She continued to do that, and her father was an
official with the New York City Police. Each time she
was arrested, she would be forced to you know, put
on address, and then she would be returned to New
(38:55):
York from Boston. Quote properly attired. But then fast forward
a few weeks, she's right back. She's taking further wearing
a frock coat, glazed cap, striped pantaloons and so on.
And uh, someone quoted, I think this was the Boston
Harold said, has the appearance of a quite a good
(39:16):
looking young man, and the Boston Harold had been reporting
on her multiple times. They also said that she would
be acting in what they felt was manner most appropriate
for young ne'er do wells. They said she quote used
to circulate in all the drinking houses, made several violent
attempts to talk horse that's some slang we missed, and
(39:40):
do other things for which quote unquote fast boys are noted.
She had called herself George Green and gotten a job
at a clothing store in New York. She was arrested there,
and each time she was arrested, they you know, make
her take off the clothes she's comfortable with put on
a dress and then they send her back to her dad.
(40:01):
I think it's because he is in law enforcement that
she is not having to deal with some of the
same treatment, or the same level of treatment that a
lot of other people in her situation had. So Snodgrass though,
I mean her story, we're back in the eighteen fifties
for this, right. Oh yes, that's absolutely correct. Uh, she
(40:23):
was really making headlines in eighteen fifty two or so.
I still am. I am curious about what talking horse is.
I imagine it's it's a talking smack. I don't know,
talking horse. Uh yeah, just maybe maybe um rough talk,
boys talk or something like that. I don't know. Well,
(40:46):
it's funny. One thing in that that newspaper that you
quoted about her appearance. Another thing that they used to
describe her. They said, quote, she is a practical woman's
rights girl, as though you know, and you know what
that means, you know, basically just capital w capital our
woman's rights and oh goodness, yea. The fragility of like
(41:12):
that patriarchy really exposes itself when you're so threatened by
a woman who's choosing to wear pants, but to the
point where she's arrested and it's it's tricky. Um. Also
the condescension that is just dripping off that phrase and
the pearl clutching, you know. It's. Yeah, this story is
(41:33):
important because it encounters some other larger problematic things about
the US of that time, you know, that remain problematic
in the modern day. Uh, you know, the idea of
how someone wishes to identify as an individual. Right, going
back to Dr Walker's thing, Um, maybe people should do
what they want where what they want. You know. She
(41:54):
had also been continually sort of rebelling against her father,
who was either a captain or assistant captain in New York.
When she was released to her father's recognianance, one time,
she just high tailed it back to Boston. She was
dressed in what were items of traditional women's clothing, and
(42:16):
she went to a place called the Washington Coffee House,
where she had rented a room. She left the place
in women's clothes, according to one report, but returned wearing
clothes that would be traditionally associated with dudes. I think
every time somebody gave her these you know, ridiculous charges
(42:36):
or arrest it sort of inspired her to double down.
You know what I mean, Well, I mean what I
what I think it's just really fun about Um the
Emma Snodgrass story is that, so she's a teenager, right,
show me a teenager who's not doing rebellious things in
the context of a society or a family. So you
can you can look at this story as just sort
of the antics of a of a teenaged person, which
(42:58):
is often celebrated when it's a young boy or a
teenage guy. Right. So we look at people like Huckleberry Finn,
for instance, if we're talking similar time frames, who is
really celebrated for thumbing his nose at societal rules and
doing what he thinks is best and living the life
he wants to live in that sort of American folk
(43:20):
hero way. But the ability to operate in that mode
is often extended only to men, right. And so especially
with Emma Snodgrass, some of what we've talked about today
dealt primarily with dress and just fashion, but Um Snodgrass
and and her case really it veers not only into
dress but also action and what's appropriate for one gender,
(43:45):
what's the way to behave That's something that I think
it illustrates really well that situations like this where we're
policing dress and what's appropriate. It runs the gamut, and
and there's so so much crossover and so many is
some's made on the parts of the authorities about you know,
(44:05):
what could be a slippery slope for instance, Yeah, exactly.
And this slippery slope fear can so often be trotted
out when people don't have a otherwise valid reason for
their problem. Okay, this is a terrible example vaguely related.
It's it's similar to the situations wherein every year two
(44:29):
in the US, there's going to be a usually a politician,
one strip or another who says A and B and
C is going wrong. Things are really going terribly And
part of that is because people are saying happy Holidays
instead of Merry Christmas. And it's a slippery slope that
will lead us on the road to ruin. You know
(44:50):
what I mean, we will we will say happy holidays
one week, next week, dogs and cats sleeping together. We're
on the path paved with good intentions. St too inferno.
And it's weird because that kind of escalation of an argument,
at least as it's applied to you know, some of
the fragile, masculine patriarchs of the day. Here, it seems
(45:14):
silly when we look back with the benefit of retrospect,
but we also have to remember as ridiculous as these
forces were when they were persecuting these people, they were
really messing with, in some cases, ruining these people's lives.
You know. Yeah, it's no light thing to go to jail.
It's no. Yeah, it's not something a lot of people
(45:35):
do for fun, right. Most people, uh, if they want
to go somewhere for a weekend, will probably choose like
the beach or the mountains. Yeah, And there are plenty
of ways we can draw lines from what was going
on in the forties, fifties, and sixties, and in the
hula case in the thirties, all the way up to
today in in other countries and other societies that you know,
(45:57):
maybe have more restrictive traditions of what women wear. But
even today, people make assumptions based on what they think
a person should be wearing, or based on what they're wearing,
make assumptions about the kind of person they are or
the kind of threat they pose. And the authorities can
act in one way, individuals can act in another. It's
(46:18):
ridiculous to talk about some of these things as being
kind of lighthearted and silly, but they have real ramifications
in both a historical and contemporary context. And I'd like
to save a little bit of Emma Snodgrass's story for
another day, because I think we could make her life
story its own episode. What do you say, She's a
(46:39):
she's a solid case. There's there's a lot to dig
into with with Snodgrass. So that is just the beginning
of the snod Grass story. And that is the conclusion
of today's episode, but not our show. You can find Casey, Noel, Christopher,
some of our other guests and I on this show
twice a week until Big Plaid shuts us down. I
(47:00):
can't believe you brought that back. Uh. And in the meantime,
I like to thank you so much for joining us today,
Christopher haciotas dude, thanks for coming back on the show.
You know you always you always sound a little bit
irritated with us, but you keep returning do I? Oh,
I don't mean to. I look, I I just wanted to, somehow,
(47:21):
some way get on a podcast and talk about the
Museum of the American house Cat, which I did at
the beginning of this episode and I'm doing again now.
And if I had to go through the uh the
rigamar role of learning and really digging into some really
cool history and sharing it with you, Ben and the
rest of you ridiculous historians. I'm only happy well said,
(47:45):
well said, so thank you. Likewise, Christopher, it's always it's
always a pleasure. Every time you are on the show
and one of us is abroad or traveling, the person
who missed out gets just a tinge of envy because,
as you know, our partner got to hang out with you,
which is it's kind of a big deal between Nolan.
(48:06):
I'm just gonna be honest, let's all get together. Then
sometimes yeah, let's all get together. Let's get the band
back together. So, as Christopher pointed out, we are all
over the internet. You can find us some ridiculous historians
of Facebook, you can find us on Twitter, you can
find us on Instagram. We've often started wrapping up the
show with questions, what are some other pioneering people in
(48:30):
this in this same kind of thematic sphere, What are
something that you know of that you think your fellow
listeners would enjoy learning more about, Because again, we can
look back in this in and say, regardless of what
year it is, there's so many other crazy things wrong
(48:51):
with the world. Why would you care that someone decided
to wear pants? You know what I mean. But we
have to remember these these kinds of battles, their heart won,
and they make a difference. They make a tremendous impact
on the world in which we live today. Then I
totally agree with you. And as we wrap up, as
(49:11):
we both stand up, I don't care if you're wearing
pants or not. Okay, well you might. You might want
to leave before me then, because it was yeah, all right,
I'm out of here. We'll see you next time, folks.
For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
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