A Brief History of Underwear

Underwear! Whether we're talking boxers, briefs, loincloths, brassieres or even lingerie, undergarments have a storied history in cultures across the planet. It's a tale touching on everything from shifting attitudes about morality to scientific innovations, fashion and more. In today's episode, Ben and Noel take a closer look at the ancient origins of underwear, tracing its evolution to the modern day.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome

(00:27):
back to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always
so much for tuning in. We hope this message finds
you well. We hope this message finds you comfortable, especially
in your undergarments. I'm Ben. That's our super producer Max Williams,
who I just met today. Right, It's true, and you know,

(00:47):
and speaking of being comfortable, we're all comfortable cozied up
in a in a studio, in person, in person, three
of us. And you know I'm no by the way,
you're no old yeah. And and in a way we're
accompanying not just with you, fellow Ridiculous Historians, but with
our pals Josh and Chuck, because we have poached their studio.
It is festooned with fan art from the one and

(01:10):
Only Coop Aaron Cooper. I know the guy, know him well.
He's a He's a good dude and a master of
photo shopery is indeed he is. Indeed we uh, you know.
Student listeners may wonder why we said, well, hope, I
hope you're comfortable, especially in your undergarden. You're like, whoa, hey,
why are you getting all up in my in my
little Australia. Yeah, this is it's weird because you know,

(01:36):
we we talked about this in the past when we
did an episode on the Days, which was a lot
of fun. Uh. We we decided to lean into this one.
Did we know? We have been hanging out with the
people at Fruit of the Loom, lovely people, lovely people,
lovely people, and they asked us a little bit about

(01:56):
the history of underwear. I think they know about it,
but they asked us to to help, you know, fill
in some gaps for them. I think when it came
to us to put the pieces together, and I don't
know if they knew just how exciting these kind of
topics are for us. God, I mean the most exciting.
It turns out that the history of undergarments goes back

(02:16):
way further than I think either of us realize. So
far back man. And also it's a the history of
undergarments is kind of also a history of fashion, history
of sexual liberation, history of sanitation. Max Williams plays a
huge role in this. I had no idea Max, how
how instrumental you were. And it's different throwing you under

(02:37):
the bus in person. It's a lot different getting thrown
under the bus in person, Like normally I can just
turn my camera off or just like like, oh, I
gutta have to do something else, but I'm just sitting
right here. You know, I'm not doing anything else. We're
gonna make Hey, what if we make some Max facts
the show? Why am I getting the Jonathan Strickland treatment
right now? More times? And I'll show up right Yeah,

(03:01):
please don't. He is actually here. He is, he is
in the building. Yes, I'll keep your voice, um, but no,
there's not even a proper corner in this tiny studio
for you to like get into a fetal position and crying.
And you know, the corner is something I think all
three of us came to take for granted, the zoom corner,
being able to turn off your camera. We are live
and direct, so we have to just stay our ps accused.

(03:24):
We're all wearing clothing, and that's that's something I think
that we take for granted to especially underwear. It's weird
you can't really talk to people about underwear. Like if
I said, like, Noel has all these great hats, and
so I could walk up to Nolan. We know each
other very well, and I could be like oh, hey man,
that's a kick ass hat, especially, like we know each
other well enough that I know a lot of your hats,

(03:44):
so I can tell if there's a new one. But
if I was like, hey man, what kinda kind of
are you wearing? Today? Well, it's funny and have kind
of come full circle in an interesting way because initially
around seven thousand years ago, when the first evidence of
undergarments were uncovered or you know, from that era, it
really was outerwear because it was the only where right

(04:06):
you found evidence of prehistoric humans wearing were referred to
as loin claws, which is like a thin strip of
fabric that you'd loop between your your legs and cover
your naughty bits with and kind of you know, the
cents around your waist. And it was I don't know,
what do you think that why they even like, was
there a built in modesty already at that point or

(04:27):
was it just to protect their bits from you know,
being blanched by the sun or what do you think?
Pretty fragile? So I think there's definitely like a safety imperative.
Then yeah, maybe that becomes modesty, but writer, it's very
much outerwear. In the ancient days. They were also leather too.
This was not you know, this was not an aesthetic

(04:49):
thing or a kink. This is just what they had
available at the time. And it's still a primary form
of dress for a lot of people, a lot of
indigenous people in warmer climb especially. Very true and something
I didn't realize. I've heard of the Iceman. Apparently he cometh.
His name is Otsi, and he died in a region
known as the Tyrolean Alps in Tyrol, which I believe

(05:13):
is in in Germany and in that would be modern
day Germany, around five thousand years ago. And they uncovered
his remains, uh and found him wearing a goat skin
breech or loincloth, right, real clothes horse the ice man.
But but but he but because it was so cold, right
he he was He had overwear as well. It was

(05:33):
not the same situation as with the prehistoric humans. He
had furry kind of leggings on. And they found that
underneath that he was wearing this goat skin loincloth. And
didn't he have a cape of some sort like a
cloak that I can have a confirm, rightn't I? Okay,
all right, well, let's stick to the facts that because
his name was the iceman has to have like uh

(05:54):
so this like at this point, we can also see
examples of underwear in other parts of the world. If
we fast forward about a thousand and a half years,
then then we just blip just a historical record in
the world of podcasting and the historical record, we see
that Egypt also had underwear. They had a specific type

(06:17):
of linen underwear called a shinty s h E n
t I, which was kind of like loincloth, kind of
like a brief. Yeah. Yeah, And this is interesting because
if you were the pharaoh, you would or you know,
a higher class person in that society, you would maybe
wear a skirt over your shinty. But if you were
just the you know, average day to day worker, you

(06:40):
would probably just be wearing the shinty. And there's there's
a great article we want to shout out from The Independent,
written by Susie Rushton, which goes over so much ancient
history of pants and pants as in the British pants,
which is underwear. Yes, most I'm sure everybody knows that
he watches British comedies, but I always love that pants
are underwear and trousers are pants. Trousers are pants. Yeah, yeah,

(07:05):
it's an important distinction, right. Fanny also means something different,
totally different, totally different. And this is a family show,
so we're not going to tell you exactly what it is,
but you might not want to google it on your
school computer. This is interesting in that we see multiple
groups of people, not often without having contact with one another,

(07:26):
have been wearing loincloths. It just makes sense. It's the
most elegant answer to the question how do I hide
and or protect my stuff? And then we see this
evolution in detail throughout history. I think the there's there's
a little bit of controversy or speculation with the ancient Greeks.

(07:47):
There's the idea that loin cloths were around in ancient Greece,
but only enslaved people wore them. Interesting, and then the
ancient Romans or the least sexy name for an undergarment
you're gonna get in this whole show. I almost have
a hard time pronouncing it, or at least I had
to do a double tick when I first read the word.
I believe ben it is subleigaculum. Yes, who came up

(08:10):
with sculum? A Roman with a love of tongue twist.
I suppose so. And it's sort of an advanced loincloth, right, yeah, yeah,
you got a little more up thigh coverage. It's kind
of think of them like short shorts or a loincloth
with some added bells and whistles, extra wrapping. And this
was this was I believe, something that could be worn

(08:31):
by anybody, right, it wasn't just for dudes of the
day or what have you know. And writing over on
History Extra Greg Jenner, who has a really cool website
called Horrible Histories, Um, this is in league with the BBC.
He also says that this is worn by um gladiators
and actors, you know, and it was even worn by

(08:54):
There was a version of it for women that he
referred to as a boob tube. But he put it
in quotes so and he must have gotten it from somewhere.
I don't think he made this up, but I love
the idea of boom tube. And then you know, adapting
that term to refer to the television US you know,
not underwear related at all, but would play a large
role in spreading the gospel of underwear, you know, and
through advertisement much later in the game. Yes, yeah, exactly.

(09:18):
That's that's a very good point. Another cycle or full
circle of history. And if we go to the century,
then we see the creation of loose, just pull on underpants.
These were baggy. They went down to your calves, so
they're there, you know what they would look like capri

(09:39):
pants today, that's what you would think of. Yeah. And
they were referred to as drawers, and I've always thought
of that as being like, you know, well, yeah, but
a drawer, like you know, the thing you open up
and close and put things in. But it actually refers
to the drawstrings as in drawers. You know, you're drawing
the drawstrings to sent them around waste, right, And that

(10:01):
was They were called braises, I believe, or braise, that's right,
that's that's probably its own plural. It's like sheep, yeah, yeah,
a sheep and those sheep a braise and those braids. Also,
I just love you know, it's part of our show
being based in the southeast of the United States, but
we love a good Southern accent. And I have had

(10:22):
people in my family who do refer to underwear as draws.
Draw it out, don't they. And then you sort of
had a style on braise called shows, uh, that the
upper class would wear, and they were a little more
like leg warmers, you know, they would just cover the
thigh up to the thigh. Yeah yeah, ice man style, right,

(10:45):
And then we know that we know that for many
people in northern climbs, these weren't just worn to protect
yourself from like hazards of your environment. They were also
worn to keep you warm. And let's not forget there
were also like armored versions of these things that maybe
we're made of like chain mail or something, for example,

(11:06):
and we're gonna bounce around ever so slightly here and there.
Mainly it's could be sort of a linear history of underwear,
but we might double that couple of times. Vikings and
Celtics they also wore those brays, but they wore long socks,
and that was because it was cold, like you said, Ben,
so they wore those to keep them warm. Romans, however,
did not wear socks. That's largely because of the warm temperature.

(11:28):
We know that they wore sandals with no socks, because
sandals with socks obviously a total fashion faux pap. Even
though it's sort of coming back now, sandals with socks
like sort of becoming cool again, sort of like crocs,
like cast firmly on board. It's debatable as to whether
crocs are cool or not, but they are definitely making
a big comeback. Is not on board with It's not
on board a terrible look. I don't sand socks or

(11:50):
crocs both like crocs with socks absolutely not in a box.
Are you? Are you a shoe supremacist. No, I'm not
a shoe supremacist. But it's just like, this is clearly
like something that's horribly wrong. Unless you're working on a
line in a kitchen, should not wear crocs period. Well
there there there's all kinds of innovations and crocs like

(12:12):
you have little the dazzl e things that you stick
in the holes in them. You've got kind of goth
crocs which are black and have little spikes that come
up out of the holes. It's a whole thing. The
kids are crazy about him. Um, so it became uncool
enough to be cool a good It's like norm core exactly.
It's it's that level of irony where eventually it just
becomes the thing, Like you do something ironically long enough,

(12:32):
you're really just like it. Steely Dan, I mean Steely
Dan used to be dad rock and now like all
the new bands sound like Steely Dan. But the Romans
looked down upon people who wore socks. In fact, they
considered the Vikings and the Celtics to be barbarians, and
they really thought that sock wearing was absolutely ghost More so,
even it was like, oh my god, these animals with

(12:53):
their socks, they had some they had some weird social
mories or judgments that that definitely didn't age well. But fun,
fun etymo logical note about barbarism and being barbaric. Where
that comes from is also itself kind of a petty
insult condescension. It just meant people who like when they

(13:13):
when Roman forces couldn't understand a native language, they called
people barbarians because in their mind it was on amatopeia
because everything people said that they didn't understand sounded like
barbararar yeah, berberism exactly. So we're at so we're at
the Middle Ages, humanities, magic of magic, time travel, and

(13:39):
during this time there's something that a lot of people
might be surprised to learn. Guys were still wearing linen
shorts that were still called brays, but women weren't actually
wearing what we would consider underwear, right, Yeah, that's right.
It was. Actually I'm speaking to the general zeitgeist of time,

(14:00):
which was very patriarchal and uh, misogynistic, and women who
wore underwear we're seen as being somewhat low or base,
not based like the kids would say, which means super cool,
but um, you know, potentially promiscuous. It certainly wasn't seen
as a sign of virtue, and virtue was king back then. Yeah, yeah,

(14:23):
very uh patriarchal, they did not they Yeah, they were jerks.
They were beading jerks about it. But the the only
common underwear for women before the nineteenth century at this
point was something called shift, or a in France would

(14:43):
be what a cami? You know what makes me think
I've been We both I think are big fans of
the David Egger's film The Witch. Yeah, this mild spoiler,
I guess, but I'm not gonna ge. I'm not gonna
give the complete context. I'm just gonna read the line.
It's remove the shift. Yeah, oh yeah, what's that like

(15:04):
the taste of butter, and it's the taste of butter.
It's not butter. I remember we had off air when
that film came out, we we all went and hung out.
A good friend of the show, Lare and vogel Baum
was there and we talked for like an hour and
a half analyzing The Witch in the theater and I

(15:25):
we we both seen it. We're seeing it for the
first time, and we were just like, do you want
to live deliciously? Ben? What's that? I think we all do.
It's interesting too, because there's an argument about extremism and
radicalization in The Witch. Oh well, you know what we're
doing our conversation, we are going to try to take

(15:47):
Max out. That is a true story. So there were
there is another thing that occurs in this space that
we have to talk about, and that is also the
evolution of you know, I love how you pointed out
how dangerously endured a lot of this was, but there
were other things evolving as well. Because even though we're
saying people identifying as as female weren't wearing what we

(16:08):
would recognize as modern underwear today, they were wearing things
like petticoats. Of course it's and then this kind of
leads us to eventually, we'll we'll get to it a
little bit, but it leads us to launching. It does eventually,

(16:29):
but the version that we're talking about was much more
of a imposed kind of dress, or a imposed idealization,
or like the way women should appear. And these petticoats,
of course, it's especially they were reinforced by things like
whalebone or reads or willow rods to stiffen them, and
they wanted to create this almost conical shape like we

(16:51):
talked about the Barbie doll frame without the bust. That's
sort of what it was like the bottom of the
hour exactly, because the bust was flattened and if you
see these course it's I mean, there is no plunging
neckline at this point. It was very modest and very
unpleasant to where I can only imagine it's tough. I mean,
it's it's It was around for a while and it

(17:13):
was high fashion, right. It was introduced by Catherine Dave
Medici into France and the fifteen hundreds. It was originally
from Italy, but I think it really took off in
the European imagination when Queen Elizabeth right, Queen Elizabeth the
First started popularizing this idea of the big, big petticoat

(17:34):
and the high and tight course exactly the petticoat, and
they were supported with these hoops that were kind of
concentric circles made of again that stiffening material. I think
even there were versions of it later when steele became
more accessible. This is down the line, but then they
I think they became replaced with steel and they were
essentially cages that were covered in uh in fabric. And

(17:55):
the more opulent you were, the larger your skirt would be. Yeah,
you know, the bigger you were, the bigger you're well,
we said, we wouldn't say, but at this point, the
bigger like your belt was exactly exactly the bigger a
deal you were, Yes, exactly. So we're talking about a shift.
We're if you're trying to picture it in your head,

(18:16):
you're essentially picturing something that looks like a nightgowns. I
don't know, do I don't think a lot of people
wear nightgowns. It's certainly not the Ebenezer Scrooge style. That's
the nightcap that people speak of so fondly. And I
don't understand how late night drink became a nightcap. I got.
I mean, that's you know, it's the thing you've dawned

(18:37):
before bed I guess that's why. But you're right then,
and the shift or chamis really was kind of a nightgown.
Men would even wear them shortened versions. They would tuck
them under their Genitaliam. Okay, yeah, peoplettle extra security there
and they always tucked in. Tucking in was huge back then. Um.
But this was something that like the upper class, for example,

(18:58):
would have shifts made of fine linens and silks and
things like maybe not silks yet, I don't know. I
don't know if I forget when the trade lad to
the availability that would have been I'm not quite sure,
but people got into silk underwear, that's true a million percent.
But then the lower class or peasants would have had
shifts made of like wool, you know, or more rough,
itchy kind of material. But one thing that both classes

(19:20):
had in common where these garments were worn repeatedly and
they could be washed, and one very popular for watching
these was using stale urine. Why apparently made things brighter,
the would make a yellower. Yeah, well, you know, it
depends on the source of the urine, honestly, and and

(19:43):
also at this time we should mention the people in
both the world of medicine and popular culture had a
little bit of a different idea of urine than we do.
To this true, right, A lot of medicine was here,
p into this vial or this uh feed into this container,
and I will hold it up to the cardinalite of
the sun to determine whether you are melancholic, to engage

(20:06):
the levels of your humors exactly. And so they did
those side doe because again, these are these are people
just like us listening or doing this show today. They
weren't dumb. They were working with what they had, and
they didn't want to smell like peace. So they would
hang these uh they would hang these undergarments outside and

(20:26):
try to air drive them long enough that they didn't
smell like pea, which probably also means they wore them
for quite a long time before they would wash them,
because especially if you were a peasant, you wouldn't have
that many of these no. No, And it wasn't until
the Middle Ages that it even became a thing and
was somewhat of a luxury for a while, because before that, you,
if you were the average person in this area, you

(20:49):
would have either slept naked or you would just sleep
in the clothes you had already been wearing. It's not
like you had fifty pairs of trousers. You had you know,
you had the good pair and then you had the
other pair maybe, and so you would just leave those
on nightgowns. Because they were made of these thin fabrics.
Originally you had to be pretty well off to wear them.

(21:12):
And then you know, as we see this catch on
with the quote unquote lower classes, that's where we see
the rough wool you're talking about. Yeah, and uh, then
I don't know, let's go back to Chauce's because you've
mentioned those. In Europe goes into the Renaissance period and
that's when things start getting a little racier. These were
the roughly capri pants initially, or like you know, the

(21:33):
kind of loose fitting they became. I believe silk hose, right.
I think it was Gosh, who was a queen Elizabeth
the first as well, made a big stand on wearing
this silken hose and really popularized it. So while these, uh,
while these tight hose approaches are becoming more in vogue,

(21:56):
brais also start to get shorter. And then there's this
one full innovation that I think we should all appreciate
more the predecessor of the fly. That's right. If you
are wearing uh if if you're wearing pants, you'll often
find that there is an opening, especially dudes pants, you'll
find that there's an opening, often with the zippers, sometimes

(22:17):
with a button that allows you to use the restroom
without entirely dropping troal. This flap could be buttoned up
because zippers didn't exist yet, or you could tie it
close with like draw strings. And this was the first
ever thing that we called a cod piece. It is

(22:38):
not named after fish uh fun only slightly an s
f W. Fact. Cod was a Middle English term for scrotum. Right,
it's scrowed um. This is my scrotum piece. Yeah, and
it's oh my god. By by the way, I said,
not a dumb thing. I just wasn't sure, and I said,
as much. Silk was around by the time of the

(22:59):
second Crew saved um, so they would have had silk,
but again it would have been very rare and coming
from Afar feel like the king. Absolutely, But then it
became a little more available around the time that we're
talking about these uh, these hose, these leggings kind of
coming into fashion. But you're right, then the cod piece.
Uh uh, you want to talk about syphilis? Was the time? Uh,
you know, it's it's always time to have frank discussions

(23:23):
with our friends about important issues, and syphilis is one.
This is It was rampant, Yes, it was. It was,
as our friend Frank would say, wide rife, wide rife, indeed,
and and it was even because you couldn't you couldn't
get rid of it, right, So it was even rampant
among the upper class. And King Henry the eighth, for example,

(23:44):
war cod piece. Uh. And part of the point of
the cod piece was the point literally too uh em
big in in big in your your area, like a
push up only absurd. I alas, I always think of
a clockwork orange. You know. They obviously wore for effect,
and it's sort of like a weird retro kind of
European callback, I guess, but it's very odd. But yeah,

(24:06):
Henry the eighth um wore quite a large one, and
apparently it was so large because he needed extra room
in there to stuff it with ointment soaked rags like poultices, huh,
so that it would reduce the pain and the swelling
he was experiencing was associated with syphilis. Yeah, and there
there were other people because the cod piece wasn't covered

(24:27):
by outer layers, right, so there are other people who
are stuffing it. Whether that's because they've contracted syphilis, or
whether that's because they won't make more of a visual impression.
That probably goes case by case, but that was happening.
And uh, there's some paintings you can look at it
from this era. They're like shaped like a like a
like a like a dog. Yeah, like like outwardly it's

(24:49):
it's like an outward yeah. That thing. Um, it's weird.
Thank god that that fell out of fashion. So strange.
I mean, you know, we certainly have instances of like
rock stars stuffing pants with socks and and like, you know,
I think there was in spinal Tap where I believe
David st. Hubbins is going through security and it keeps
no I know it is. It's it's Derek Small the
basis he's going through security and he keeps setting off

(25:12):
the metal detector and he pulls out a cucumber wrapped
in tinfoil out of his pants and shamefully turns it
over to the airport security. And other other dudes and
other parts of the world had the similar idea, like
there's a thing called the Koteka, which is yeah, it's
uh their communities in New Guinea that where these Because

(25:34):
we're in person, it looks like it's like a gord
I would say, it's definitely made of a gourd and
it's uh something that with a with a waist band
that you would attach to your your your waist and
you know it's a giant, thick picture, a giant cord
that's painted you know, ornately that you're wearing on the
outside of your clothes in your area. Yeah. Yeah, it

(25:54):
is made from a dried out gourd. But we're we're
saying the cod piece idea is a is a revelation
that multiple men have thought of parallel thinking, Man, how
do I get people to notice my junk more notice junk? Yeah,
so this thank goodness that this didn't you know, carry on, right,

(26:15):
But we do have to talk about something else, especially
in not in the all of the world, but especially
in the late Middle Ages and in London. Things were filthy.
Oh yeah, yeah, it was gross. There's a whole episode
of ridiculous history on the Great Stink of London call
and that Great Stink in question was the Thames, Uh,

(26:36):
and just the streets because they didn't have indoor plumbing.
It was just like you know, privs, these like open
pots and they would just get dumped out into the street,
you know, like a spittoon. But it was instead of
you know, being full of gross like tobacco spit, it's
full of like poop and urine and it's just literally
the streets are flowing with excrement and the Thames is
absolutely just you know, festering with rut toxic runoff from

(27:02):
leather man because you know, all the chemicals used to
cure leather um and animal waste and animal carcasses and
parts and guts coming out of butcher shops. I mean,
it was bad and it smelled. And to make it worse,
people didn't wash. It wasn't as easy to wash, you know,
like unless you live next to clean water source or

(27:25):
unless you are I don't know. It just wasn't normalized.
But at the same time, people like when when we
say the streets were filthy, that you know, as Asneal said,
there's no sewage. There's the sewer is the middle of
the street. And the buildings are also often built such
that the second floor protrudes over the first floor, so

(27:45):
it also restricts airflow. And this leads to Uh, the
reason this is such a perfect storm is because at
the time people believe that you could the current medical
theory was that you could get disease through something called miasma,
that's smelling something that it was going into you. Not

(28:05):
to mention, you know, accurately, I would argue they believed
you could get these diseases through your skin and also
through bodily orifices, openings, you know, natural openings in the body. Um.
Depending on what disease we're talking about, what kind of contact,
that can be true and it can be not true. Right. Um.
But they washed infrequently, and so the closest thing they

(28:27):
had infrequently means frequently does they didn't watch that much
and uh, they got around this, or at least the
closest thing they had to personal hygiene was washing their garments,
their under undergarments as much as possible. Um. But even that,
again because of the availability of clean water. That's why
they were using urine. By the way, part partially, um,

(28:47):
it was it was hard to do that as well,
especially for the underclass. I always think of the scene
in Monty Python the Holy Grail where somebody says something
the effect of, oh, he must be a king because
he's not covered in Yeah, right, that's that's pretty good line.
And look, we're we're not saying people were um purposefully,
you know, incredibly dirty or filthy. We're saying it was

(29:09):
harder to stay clean. And now we enter in a
time where this is weird. Things become a little bit
more modest. People are putting away their pretend phalluses, and
men in Europe are starting to wear these long cotton
linen or if your fancy silk draws, I'm gonna say

(29:31):
draws for the rest of the episode. And in the
most common the thing that was sort of like the
Honda Civic of underwear at this time was a knee
length garment with a button flap at the front. This
was the ancestor of something that was called, I don't
know why I love this name, the union suit or
a union suit. That's the thing you picture like an

(29:51):
old prospector wearing with the butt flap, right, And for
some reason it's read usually and yeah, and maybe they
watched it in the clown pants. And this later evolved
into what we recognize as Long John's. Have you guys
ever had a pair of Long John's or do you
ever wear thermal under Let's trying to call him thermal underwear. Now, No,

(30:12):
I haven't really lived in cold enough area to really
warrant it, but I know they can be comfy. Max, Yes, yes,
so Alex and I are actually from Detroit originally, so yeah,
from birth we had Long John's and then we moved
on here and we're like, why do we still happy?
It is like nine degrees every day more realistically like
ninety five degrees and horribly human gets cold here though
in the winter, and certainly, if let's say you don't

(30:36):
have central heat, for example, Long John's air thermal underwear
would certainly be a you know, pretty affordable fix. I
wear him every winter. I hope to tell you guys,
because it's a weird thing to say in conversation. How
would come up? You know, how needed to bring it
up out of nowhere? Well, you know, for hanging out.
We're sitting at Patty over our favorite wings spot or something,
and someone's has come up once maybe know you guys,

(30:58):
but someone's like, oh, it's cool, we should go in
and it was like, I'm fine and picked the weirdest,
dumbest flex I did that winter. I was like, because
I always wear thermal underwear when it's cold, It's like,
would you like to see it? I pulled up my
shirt while everyone was saying no, Can I say that?
You made a really good point that things took a

(31:18):
turn towards the more modest, and I think that's largely
for men. For women, that did start to see the
push up of the of the plunging neckline and also
more kind of ancient Greek and art inspired drapings and like,
you know, if you look at the way art evolved,
I believe it was Neo Classicism where it showed a
lot more of these garments with you know, where you

(31:40):
could literally see nipples, you know, it was it was
very sheer and things like that. So that was something
that we would start to see. But with men they
did start to cover up more. Also, the shifts we
talked about, I became a weird flex in and of itself,
Like in the Victorian Age, you think of those like
crazy like Delafosaurus from Jurassic Park, like neck fringes or whatever,

(32:01):
the roughs they called them. That was just the part
of the shift that you could see, Yes, yes, because
it would and then you know, they would get more
and more elaborate, because these richies just wanted to like
one up each other and flex harder with these bizarro
you know, like halo looking things exactly. And at the
same time that these different things are occurring and that
we're seeing a little bit of divergence, we're also seeing

(32:25):
the end of an era. Because up to about the
nineteenth century in Europe and North America, underwear was thought
to have two main functions for the average person. First,
it wasn't really meant to protect you as much as
it was meant to protect your outer clothes from you

(32:45):
because people didn't bathe and they didn't want to get
their nice outside clothes dirties. So they're put on their there,
you know, like this airlock for filth and because yeah,
and and and then you know, bathing was very much luxury,
and so in these colder climbs, especially like you know,
modern day Detroit, this added an important extra layer of insulation. Noll,

(33:09):
is it time to shout out before we go to
the next phase? Is it time we should probably mention
fruit of the loom uh started around this time, right
nineteenth century. Yeah, it was around midway through the nineteenth century.
In eighteen fifty one, the Fruit of the Loom Company
was founded, but they didn't trademark their brand. Their ubiquitous
brands and that I always think of that, uh, the

(33:29):
image associated with fruit dressed up like the fruit. I
always wanted one of those costumes, you know what I mean.
I like mascots. I like stuff with mascots, and I
also think it's interesting too. Not to get too far ahead,
this is way far ahead, but we talked about underwear
as being like something you hide. But I always thought
it was awesome when you were kids. You know, you
get those fruit the looms that have like cartoon characters

(33:51):
and stuff printed on. Who is that for? I guess
it's just for us. You know, you're not They don't
really expect you to be parading around in your and
your skivvies. But at the same time, I'm certainly a
good selling point for for us kids. Um, but you're right.
In eighteen fifty six they did trademark that that brand,
and now zoom zips au and the magic of podcasting
and time travel through history, we are in the industrial era. Yes,

(34:14):
the Industrial era, the Industrial Revolution, and your took us
odds are the undergarments that you're rocking today as you
listen to this, if you are indeed wearing undergarments, came
do you? Courtesy the Industrial Revolution? After after this period, right,

(34:36):
we see this massive expansion of commercial and manufacturing scale,
and we see the ability to make instead of laboriously
doing things in a very slow manner, now we can
make hundreds, thousands, millions of undergarments. And cotton especially helped
democratize these fabrics. So the that's because of the cotton

(34:58):
gin that allows you to process that cotton, uh much
more efficiently. And then you had things like the spinning Jenny,
which was like you know, basically an industrial loom, if
I'm not mistaken, Yeah, exactly. Because they had these technological breakthroughs,
it became less expensive to create quality clothing. Right. And

(35:19):
then I don't know if you were expecting this to
show up in the show, folks, but then the invention
of the bicycle inspires a revolution and underwear which is
the jockstrap. It's called a jock strap because they called
people who are on bicycles jockeys. Yeah, were they, like,

(35:39):
I mean, they had to have been doing this for
you know, business purposes, right, Were they like delivering things
on bicycles or was it just like people writing as
a mode of transportation. So there was enough demand for
it that they were getting their junk rattled. You know,
I have a bike and I don't have a jock strap,
don't require one, but I have a memory, you know,
gel kind of seat topper, not to protect my little asse. Yeah,

(36:02):
they didn't. They didn't have that, so you're you're right.
It must have been a problem in the you know,
the jockstrap is still around today because it works. And
this is interesting because with the industrial era also comes
the rise of capitalism, and one aspect of capitalism is
to generate as many markets as possible. Right, Why sell

(36:25):
one kind of thing when you could sell the same
thing four ways to four different groups. And that's why
I would argue that's why we see this specialization in
underwear at least as a selling point. Absolutely, the differentiation
between underwear for men underwear for women, um which again
created these two markets. So what do you do when
you specialize? You start to get real specific and you

(36:47):
start to sell people the idea of beauty or the
idea of fashion. Right. Um, so that's when you start
seeing things like lingerie. And that represented a really really
great article by the way, on Love to Know Fashion
dash History dot Love to Know dot Com about the
history of lingerie by Caroline Cox, and she points out

(37:08):
very astutely that the popularizing of lingerie kind of happened
hand in hand with women becoming freed from some of
those constraints that we talked about in terms of morality,
notions of sexuality. They should, you know, kind of be
more restrained, right, And this kind of became part of

(37:30):
what led to like the sexual liberation and the idea
of femininity and identity and sexual identity, or in parallel
with the kind of emerging of sexual identity among women
and femininity and the idea of you know, kind of
tossing off some of those Victorian morals that were sort
of kind of foisted upon them. But it was early

(37:51):
nine hundreds and there was still kind of we weren't
fully into the sexual revolution yet, but this was definitely
laying the groundwork. And lingerie was considered something that was
only for married couples if you wore it and you
were not a married woman, then that would be considered
low or promiscuous, or in some way lacking in in

(38:13):
virtue and decorum. This really great quote from a fashion
journalist from nineteen o two. Um that again is is
cited in this fashion history dot Love to Know dot
com article and it goes like this lovely lingerie does
not belong only to the fast. Dainty undergarments are not
necessarily a sign of depravity. The most virtuous of us

(38:34):
are now allowed to possess pretty undergarments without being looked
upon as suspicious characters. Here here caveats, but handing in
the right direction. Yeah, agreed. And you know this is
like this idea of to the morality jail with you
based on your dress is it's it's dumb. It's an
attempt to control people. And unfortunately it's not the only

(38:56):
example of its kind. We know it occurs in other
other countries, other cultures. Throughout history, people have been attempting
to control each other through their dress. But this is
why we have to examine all of these things at once.
If we go, if we check in to see what's
going on with pants and uh pants in the U
S sense, with trousers. Then we see that, oh, one

(39:17):
of my favorite fun facts. Long John's named after a
real guy. His name is John L. Sullivan. He's a
boxer in the eighteen hundreds and he one of his
flexes was he would show up in the ring in
his long John's to box people. And then we also
know the origin of the word pants. Using pants like
this might be hilarious for some of our British listeners,

(39:40):
but it comes from an Italian comedy called Pantalone. The
character in this play where's these garments that come down
to his ankles at a time when most folks were
rocking stuff that came down to their knees. And then
in the eighteenth century in England these were called pantaloons.
By the nineteenth century we started shortening that word pants,

(40:02):
and then in Britain, at least going to local histories
dot Org, pants came to mean just any kind of
long draws. I'm still gonna stick with draws that covered
your the entirety of your leg and the things that
you wore over those long draws, those long John's would
become known as trousers. So there it is also if

(40:25):
you go back to magic of time travel. If you
go to the nineteen twenties, you'll see pants as a
pants design. Pants Aesthetics again got an idea from boxing.
Of all places, a guy named Jacob Golam developed a
featherweight version of fighting shorts, and then in the nineties,
it's primary villain appeared facts. Can we get some traumatic music?

(40:51):
That's right? Is that? Okay? All right? You know what? Yeah,
I'm budget conscious, I got you, so. Yes. The briefs,
this is a question that you hear. If you're you've
probably heard this pretty often. If you're male identified, people
will ask you boxers or briefs. They'll still ask you

(41:12):
that today. It's almost cliche, right, yeah, It's sort of
like a a sort of flirtatious thing someone might ask
you perhaps maybe right, yeah, yeah, exactly, a little bit forward,
a little cheeky, like you know, depending on how well
you know you're close male friends. I'm sure at some
point everybody's had that talk. It's kind of like a
high school, middle school talk where you're like, oh, yeah,

(41:34):
any where, Tidy Whitey's boxer guy. And there's an interesting
thing that happened with a public image of Tidy Whitey's
But first well, I think we need to talk a
little bit about how this Boxer's versus Briefs rivalry came
to be. This it was nineteen five, Okay, cast your
memory back there. Jockey Briefs go on sale in Chicago.

(41:58):
They're designed by a guy named Arthur Niebler who calls
himself an apparel engineer. These first under it's so hard
because we're we're in the same room together, so I
keep going to like stand up and demonstrate stuff, but don't.
We're a family show. So this These were the first
underpants that didn't have any legs unlike a lot of
those other other designs, and they had their flap was

(42:21):
this y shaped opening. And this was so revolutionary for
the little Australia business that it's been compared with the
invention of the brawl. I can see that, Ben. Have
you seen the show Trailer Park Boys. Randy was one
of my favorite characters, the guy who's never wearing a shirt.
Whenever he wants to fight, he always takes his pants

(42:42):
off because it gives him more freedom of movement to
kind of like gyrate around. And that's what briefs did, right.
They gave you more freedom of movement. Because you're not
restricted because they just come right up to the joints
of your legs as opposed to like coming down further.
I personally, I'm gonna put it out there. Box brief guy,
Box a brief guy. I like the tight fit, but
I also like a little on the leg I see yeah, yeah,

(43:06):
you know. I guess we're putting all our all our
draws on the table. I tend to go box or
briefs myself. This this one, though, the jockey briefs that
are sometimes called tidy Whitey's, they sold like hot cakes,
like hot cakes for your butt. The thirty thousand were sold,
and then they couple of months, in just a couple

(43:28):
of months, yeah, exactly, in three months. And then they
they started leveraging marketing in a brilliant way. They had
a plane that would make special deliveries of what they
called masculine support briefs to businesses across the state, and
they called the plane the mascu line. You have to

(43:50):
have the pause, you do. What does that print like, ben,
Is it like separated by a hyphen or something? What's
the branding? I think they do have a hyphen. They
do have a little dash because they're they're really proud
of that name. I get it, um, And they promised
to deliver masculine support. Again. Part of why it was
such a revolutionary development because you know, gave you support,

(44:13):
male support, and that's why you connected it with the
bra I believe. Yeah. Yeah. And so the battle for
supremacy over what dudes would wear down South continued the
rest of the twentieth century, and then it started to
get weird because people were making these health claims and
these are health claims that I am sure you Max
and I all her growing up, or people say, hey,

(44:35):
well if you and we're endeavoring to be honest. Your
folks talking about the angle of the dangle. The angle
of the dangle is a big, big one, you know
in the idea? What explained that one? It was just like,
you know, some folks are are hardcore evangelists for boxers
because they think you need more hanging to uh promote
you know, I guess procreation. Like maybe if you're stuff

(44:57):
is too tightly packed, then it can overheat. I don't
know exactly. Is that the hygiene Maybe you can get
infections that yeah, maybe if it's like two tightly packed
and you're you're getting hots and sweaty down there. It
can cause some some hygiene issues. Yeah. But then the
fans of the brief would argue other stuff, and they
would say, well, here, okay, this is one I heard.

(45:19):
I don't know in those common but I heard, uh,
and I'm sure this is not scientifically sound. I had
some folks tell me in middle school that if you
wore boxers over time, what would happen is that your
cod pieces would continue to draw. Yeah, you know, just
like how is sometimes when how when people are elderly,

(45:42):
sometimes their ears keep growing, you know, and struggling to
and froing. Yes, exactly. And I do have a parody
version of that another one. Oh you've heard the one. Yeah, yeah,
dear bees, it's something that happens. I think if you
get older to that happens. They sure, that's gravity. It's
just gravity. You can't mess with gravity. No amount of

(46:04):
technological garment innovation can mess with gravity, exactly. And so
because of these health claims, regardless of their veracity, a
lot of people felt like they had their well being
at stake. And this is where we get to, This
is where we I think we switched back for a second,

(46:26):
and let's talk about World War One because it played
a role in Undergarden. Super interesting. Let's not forget like corsets.
You know, you picture corsets and you picture petticoats, and
that covered up pretty large swath of history, right, like
you know, the Old West, for example, the Frontier. Even
they were even though they were stepping through streets that

(46:46):
were like covered in mud and and and you know,
horse manure, they were still wearing these bizarre bell shaped
you know um petticoats that were at this point surrounded
by steel. Right. We initially in the early days of them,
they were made with reeds or willow rods that could
be bent because they were they were flexible. But because
of the war effort, women were discouraged. It actually caused

(47:08):
a sea change in fashion because all of that steel
was needed for the war effort. So women were discouraged
by the government from buying these courses, which essentially caused
a sea change in manufacturing and style. And it also
saved the government twenty eight thousand tons of metal. Amazing, right,
And no, that's no small effort. And that's where the

(47:29):
new brazier comes into play. And then we see a
cavalcade of other innovations, garter belts, girdles to replace courses,
perma girdles. I gotta say real quick, this is from
some of these facts here are from a great article
on Family Tree magazine called The Revealing History of Underwear
by David A. Frisle, which is a great last name. Yes,

(47:49):
shout out to you, Mr Frixele. Also then, also we
see nylon stockings. We see sixty four million pairs of
those sold, such that kind of like the PS five,
manufacturers couldn't keep up with demand, and at some point
some people were actually painting on stockings, which is I

(48:12):
think interesting. It is interesting. And remember, you know, originally
stockings were made of silk, which was a very you know,
rare and expensive material. Nylon really democratized the wearing of stockings.
And I have very distinct memories of being a kid
and uh, those stockings that came in like the egg
you know, you'd buy them in almost I can't remember
the name of the brand, but it really became a

(48:34):
fashion thing, especially kind of in the eighties. Maybe is
when I picture like shoulder pads and nylon stockings, but
obviously it was big before that. But here's something that
I didn't realize. Wait wait wait wait wait before going
I realized that's why they were called legs like l
like eggs with two g Yeah, boom, that's why they

(48:55):
were sold that way. You nailed it, very clever, very
clever branding. But here's something I didn't know. The thong.
Let's talk about the thong. It gets its own song. Yeah,
I'll tell you who who didn't want to see that thong? Um? Well,
actually did no. Let me let me rephrase that. The
mayor of New York in the nineteen thirties, the guy
who the airport connector, Mayor Fiarrello LaGuardia. This is there's

(49:19):
a huge like red light district. I mean, you know,
sex work was not legal, but there were lots of
burlesque type joints and strip clubs. Right. Times Square used
to be lousy with them up until I think the
like the nineties, you know, when they kind of think
it was Juliani who cleaned up quote unquote cleaned up
Times Square turned it into basically like Disneyland for tourists.
It's a little weird. I would have I vaguely remember

(49:42):
growing up going to New York in the nineties and
and the Trash Year, Dirty Year version, but LaGuardia ordered
by like statute, I guess strippers to replace their g strings,
which is, you know, it's like a thong, but it's
literally a string. It's basically how they could get around
with him them not being full nude. It doesn't look comfortable.

(50:02):
I've never worn one, but it doesn't look comfortable. I
haven't either. But the thong is just it's honestly full
circle kind of back to the loincloth. It kind of
is it's like a reduced loincloth that's stretchy and you know,
shows enough of the butt, but it's not like just
it doesn't disappear into the butt entirely. Right yep. And
years later the four eight eleven original rise thong in

(50:24):
like a jet it's a it's a jet fear button.
The four at eleven model to mock three thong now
with I C B. M. S. Yeah, it gets accepted,
It gets widespread acceptance as underwear. Just like you said,
it's a loin cloth. There was something else interesting we
found here. Before the nineteen fifties, pretty much everybody thought

(50:46):
of T shirts the way that we would think of
underwear correct, like you would if you were a normal person.
You would only be wearing a T shirt if you
were doing hard labor, playing sports. And the fact that
like right now, let's see, um, you know, you're wearing
a T shirt, Max, you're rocking a tea. I've got
one on, but I've got one on underwear style, Like

(51:07):
so you're also wearing a polo on top of that,
which is a style of tea with just like a
collar there it is, yeah, yeah, exactly, And that would
have been unusual. We would have looked out of place
or way too informal, or that's the thing, way too informal,
except for the intervention of a guy named Marlon Brando

(51:27):
in one he started appearing in these canonical classic hits
like Streetcar named Desire just wearing a tight T shirt
showing off, you know, showing off his his bot a
little bit. And then he did the Wild One where
he also wore a T shirt. James Dean Rebel Without
a Cause also a T shirt. And now a T

(51:47):
shirt becomes an everyday thing that people wear, and you
gotta think, and I'm just kind of spitballing here, but
it was probably designed they didn't. I don't think they
fully understood the pop culture phenomenon that it would create.
I think initially it was probably like, this is an everyman,
you know. The guy in street Car is meant to
be kind of a working stiff, you know, so it's
probably like, okay, this is what like. You know, it

(52:10):
was meant to show he's not rich. He's not rich exactly,
same with Rebel without a Cause, although I think he
had rich parents. That's a really interesting movie. I need
to watch that one again. It's a lot weirder than
I thought. It opens with this weird little clown thing,
like a little clown toy, and it's very interesting, odd movie.
I I assumed it was gonna be all motorcycle racing
in bravado, but it's actually very nuanced and strange. Film.

(52:33):
Highly recommended. Also has a really great sequence that takes
place in my favorite place in Los Angeles, the Griffith
Park Observatory. Ah Yes. And if whether you're at Los Angeles,
New York, or anywhere between in the nineteen sixties, you
notice something called the sexual revolution. It's also revolutionize social
latitudes towards unmentionables, and so it's important to note that

(52:56):
a lot of things that would have formerly been considered
scandalous or now increase seemingly being considered mainstream. Right. And
and now we see that underwear sometimes followed larger trends
and outer clothing, Like when in the UK, when I
think it was maybe the eighties seventies, there was a
move towards tight genes and so people went back to

(53:16):
briefs because it couldn't put their boxers in the tight
jeans without looking really awkward and weird. And then I
found this really interesting quote where a person named Elizabeth
Eliasson of bjorn Borg. Had to be clear bjorn Borg
is a company named after the tennis player, said that
all the underwear trends started in the nineteen eighties with

(53:39):
the gay market. They wanted to have innovative products, and
because of this you would see like there was a sexualization.
You see like market mark and uh, designers like Calvin
Klein are using pretty much nude models in their ads.
And also people start associating boxers with kind of like success.

(54:04):
This is this is the grown man's panties. No, it's
it's it's very true. And I gotta say to you, Ben,
you're talking about those type jeans and having to wear
briefs under them. Essentially we've come full circle again, and
that's sort of the modern cod piece, Yes, the modern
cod piece. This is where we also see this this
strange shift in aesthetic or the strange shift shift. Yes,

(54:26):
there we go, the strange chemise in in this in
a cultural perspective, because for a time, boxers, you know,
they're getting, they're becoming associated with, as he said, more
well to do up and coming like yuppie types. They're
the grown man's panties. And conversely, briefs are seen as

(54:47):
like the underwear of boys children y, like the g
I joe prints and all of that stuff, and it
became seen like a sign of immaturity exactly. But then
enters Marky mark And and Calvin Klein or or actually,
you know, I always think of when I think of
Calvin Klein, I think of back to the future. When
she pulls this, you know, his mom in the in

(55:08):
the past. You know, he's he's he's he's unconscious because
I guess he gets hit by her parents car. And
then she takes the pants off and she says that
his name is printed is underwear and she calls him
Calvin for the whole movie. Um, but this changes that
exactly then right around because of Calvin Klein and um
featuring you know, the idea of an underwear model. That

(55:28):
wasn't even a thing, you know, Um, but it maybe
it was. But this is really when it becomes front
and center and on billboards, on TV commercials and like
all over the place and sort of normalizes that sexuality,
much to the chagrin of certain evangelical sets I would imagine. Right, yeah, now,
underwear is not just functional, it's a statement about sex, fashion, money,
and your appeal. And so seeing celebrities wearing these garments

(55:52):
would cause people to run out and get their own
or maybe get some for their partners, right, and by
clothing were them. So this translates directly to sales. And
that was starting in the seventies, yeah, going through to
the eighties when that was probably at its peak with
the with the market Mark stuff. Well that was also
like Markie Mark would probably have been like late eighties,

(56:12):
like early nineties. Yeah, that really never went away. No, no,
And now we're reaching the conclusion of our tail. For
now there is a future of underwear that will will
cover Uh, I guess much much later. But as you know,
one of our favorite arbitrary rules here on Ridiculous History
is that we consider history stuff that happened before about

(56:35):
the mid nineties. Max, did we tell you that? I
don't think you guys did tell me that cut off
as apartheid are cut off? Is literally yes, And that's
that's why we're stopping at this era. Uh. The hybrid
Boxer brief, there's so many more, know you and I
did a round up of some just interesting underwear facts

(56:56):
that we found. Dude, this first one almost makes me
think George Lucas was all a little perth. So the
story is unconfirmed that Harry Fisher didn't wear underwear while
filming Star Wars because George Lucas told her there is
no underwear at outer space. George, whatever, man, I mean,
it's the future, man, there's future underwear. I would let

(57:20):
to point out that at no point in Star Wars
do they say it's the future. Well, actually it's supposed
to have happened a long long time ha ha and
a galaxy far far away, it's true. Um, you know.
Sticking with maybe a military type theme, um, the expression
of going commando apparently first started being used in the
seventies as like university slang, like in frat type circles.

(57:42):
One of the first mentions apparently occurred at the University
of North Carolina back in nineteen four. Um. But it
refers to, of course, the idea of a commando, a
military man being ready to go at a moment's notice
and not needing to put on drawers. Okay, that's illuminated eating. Okay.
It's also illegal in Thailand to leave your house without underwear. Uh.

(58:05):
And also I feel they also execute you for smoking
pot in Thailand. Uh. It does have harsh drug laws.
If you're traveling to a place that has that says
they have harsh drug laws, just believe them. Just believe them.
You know what I mean, you could party at home.
But but but also one thing I thought would be
would be fun for us to do it if you're interested,

(58:28):
is I was looking for underwear slang because whenever we
talk about things that are like the oh naughty stuff,
we always find all this beautiful language about it, Like
Benjamin Franklin's long List, his reference work that's just phrases
for getting drunk, or all the various names people have

(58:48):
for genitals. We found some cool underwear slang. One of
them is pretties, which I think is so creepy. Yeah,
that's super creepy. Um, it's only goodness pretty, that's not cool. Um. Then,
of course we've got some there's different ones from from
different regions. Like he said, We've got things like granny panties.

(59:11):
We've got drawls. Of course, we've got brief thongs, g strings, pantaloons. Um,
what else We've got weener basket. Oh finally, finally, that's
high class banana hammock. Yeah, I've heard that there's uh
tap pants, which the tap dancers. Cutty Sark is one.
It's also whiskey, right, Budgee smugglers, manhole covers. Manhole covers

(59:37):
is clever. Of course nickers is good, and that has
its own interesting history. But my heart goes to the
union suit. I just want to start referring to that,
like I'm wearing my union suits. My union suit is
covering your birthday suits. It covers your birthday. Well done.
You've got a couple more dumb ones just from belatory
dot com. We've got sausage skins, kicks under ru's mantees,

(01:00:00):
punch and holder, Grundy's trolleys and skies. I'm gonna I'm
gonna try to make some up maxigans, break these with
salad cues. How about your your hands free? Yeah you go,
because otherwise you have to just hold them right, It's true. Yeah,
um fig leaf. There we go, There we go. Uh,

(01:00:25):
let's see, let's see. Uh your your cross Roads. That's weird.
That's a really good movie with Britney Spears and Okay,
well we'll take that. And I think that's it's a
great bone Thugs and harmony song. You have a really
great I Do I Do I? I love that version.
Maybe one day we'll all be able to play it
together and not get sued by one of those giants.

(01:00:48):
That's true. Gosh, this is a fun one. Thank you too.
Free to the loom first and foremost like, thank you
please send me one of those fruit mascot costumes. I
wouldn't be the great We'll wear it on a soon
to be announced live event that we're gonna do. Yeah
they still if they still? Thanks to you, Ben, Thanks
to you, Max Williams, super producer Max Williams, Alex Williams,

(01:01:11):
who composed our theme, Super producer Casey Pegram, all the
super producers of Days of Your Yes, and thanks to
you knowl it's great to hang out in person. Thanks
to Gabe Lucier, our research associate. Christopher ocotis Eve's Jeff Coat,
and thanks to Nathan, and thanks to Yeah and thanks
well this the second time we said the name, so
we can power through this. Thanks to the Quister for sure,

(01:01:33):
and then you know, thanks to all the people who
have tirelessly worked to make underwear better. Honestly, because if
you look at the history this this is a wild ride,
it really is. See you next time, folks. For more

(01:01:55):
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