October 12, 2023 • 45 mins
In the second part of this series, Ben, Noel and Max explore how Burr's struggle to acquire political power seemed to lead him, again and again, into conflict with his frenemey Alexander Hamilton -- a rivalry that would ultimately culminate in a fatal duel. Spoiler: Aaron Burr survives. His career does not.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. This is part two to two of
Aaron Burr Burr Perfect America's Drunk Uncle. Big shout out
to our super producer research associate mister Max Williams. I'm ben,
big shout out to you know. Oh, we got a
lot of weird stuff ahead, sad stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
A lot of weird stuff, sad stuff, copiously little drinking.
But I think Matt Max points out somewhere in this
episode that everyone was just kind of drunk all the time.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
And Burr, I think he just the the whole drunk
uncle thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It's just more of like a kind of a crystallization
of his personality.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And I'm still this will make sense later, folks. I'm
still looking at this old Delmonico's menu and I just
can't figure out some of the things on here. What
is cabinet putting.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
It's just like putting that you leave in a cabinet
for a really long time and just see what happens.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Roll the dice.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This battle for New York is bad, and on some level, Burr,
despite his own miscalculations and his own warts and imperfections
and ugly bumps of her career. He says, Hamilton is
one of the big reasons I lost this election. That's
probably not true, but what we're saying is there was
already a lot of baggage and these guys were carrying around.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh yeah, I mean the biography we're referring to refers
to Hamilton as despising Burr at this point. Yes, so
there's definitely like serious bad blood between these gentlemen that
is just starting to metastasized.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Can blood metastasize? Sure?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
For the purposes of description, you get it, you get blood.
Cancer is a real thing, frightening. We actually talked about that,
I think on our Saxophone episode at some point.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Ah, yes, the Sexyphone episode. Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
And so this big duel that is one of the
climactic moments of the Hamilton Musical. It happens because of
a kind of a slight thing, like a tiny misstep,
where ordinarily you would just talk it out with your buddy,
but at this point their relationship is like cans of
open paint and oily rags in a non ventilated room
(02:36):
where someone keeps playing with a lighter, even though the
lighters weren't invented yet. You get it. So in eighteen
o four, it's February, it's cold out. There's a guy,
doctor Charles D. Cooper, aka the Coops is what is
boys called them back in the day.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
They're all hanging with mister Cooper.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So the Coops is at this dinner party and at
this party, you know, which is just an opportunity for
network and talking for these guys, thank you for the beatbacks.
At this party, Hamilton's like, you know, who sucks Aaron Burr?
That guy's just like the worst. And then some people
turn around and he like stands up. I'm picturing it
(03:14):
like nineteen like nineteen eighties comic, you know, and standing
up and he's like, first off, Burr.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
What's the deal with the burg guy? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
An article on PBS The American Experience described him as
speaking eloquently and forcefully against Burr. Cooper later wrote a
letter to Philip I think it's Skylar, and I think
I might have said Shoy Schuler earlier. It's s c
h u y l e R. It's an unfair name,
(03:46):
and I think so too. It's like one of those,
it's like worst, It's like Hermione. You know, you read
it in the book, you think it in your head,
and then you say it out loud and you were
wrong the whole time.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Or New Madrid out in uh out in Missouri.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
That's right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
So in this letter he made a reference to a
particularly quote despicable opinion that Hamilton had had shared about Burn.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
He was like, I don't think he washes his butt. Yeah,
and everyone said, you know what, I can see it
seems legit.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
And then, of course, you know, to add insult to injury,
the letter gets.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Published in the New York newspaper. How does that? That
doesn't seem right? That seems real dirty?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well, this is also their main source of publicly shared
in This is their Twitter, the social.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Media, but like to publish a private was it with
his knowledge he or was it with the writer's knowledge?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
This This letter is written by Cooper to Hamilton's father
in law, so the word gets around. It's Cooper who's
telling tales outside of school, that's right. So Hamilton is
not asked about this being published. We've seen examples of
this too. I believe it was that remember the duel
(05:01):
with Lincoln where there were like some letters, there was
a letter talking to went too far because that went
a little too far. So you're right, that was exactly
the Twitter comparison is. This is completely appropriate. So in
June Burr sees this. Obviously he's humiliated once again. You know,
he's not happy, he's not happy about it. He writes
(05:23):
a letter to Hamilton demanding satisfaction, sir, or at the
very least, what's up to what gifts? Bro? WTF? And
so they have this correspondence and you can see this
in the musical where they go back and forth with
letters signing things your obedient servant, because they were very
polite even when they were saying terrible things to and
(05:46):
about each other. Ultimately, yes, Bird demands that Hamilton denies
ever talking trash about him, which sounds kind of childish
for grown men, but he's says, that's the only thing
that will repair this. You got to go out in
public and say I'm not that bad, and you never
(06:08):
set that stuff at the party. And this is back
when you could just sort of erase history that way.
But Hamilton says, hey, I'm principal too, dog, I'm not
gonna comply with your demand that would sacrifice my own
political career. And yes, my eldest son, Philip died in
a duel just three years ago. I oppose dueling.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
But I'm also you know, not gonna be a lill baby.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But if you want to fart around, you're gonna find out.
I heard you don't wash your butt.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
That's that's what they say. I think perhaps.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Really classing it up for a special guest.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Alex, I know that's what we do, that's how we
do it. We're all class here.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
That's wild man. I didn't realize that his son had
died in a duel. That was also like the idea
of dying in a duel. It just it seems like
so far removed from our modern day. I guess it's
you know, it's it's more of like a gentlemanly way
to die, but also a very unfortunate, preventable way to die.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Now it's just called getting shot.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Duels were it's I was thinking about this as we
were getting ready for this episode last week. You know,
duels back then at that time were kind of like
how cannabis law is in the United States today.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
We talked about this in the Lincoln episode to where
they had to find a spot that was like.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
A gray area where chill spot.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It was decriminalized, you know, dueling, possession of a dueling
pistol was okay.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, so duels are illegal at the time, both in
New York and in New Jersey. But as they say,
everything's legal in New Jersey. So the punishment for dueling,
for beefing up with pistols or swords, sabers or weapon
of choice, it's a lot more chill in New Jersey.
It's a lot less of a serious thing. So if
(07:54):
you kill someone in Jersey and you say, hey, we're
having a duel, I'll be like, I don't like it,
but hey, be on your way.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Indeed, so they did need to maintain an air of
secrecy around the right. It's because of the ify legal
you know waters and speaking of waters, in order to
keep that secret, they both left Manhattan separately from separate
docks before dawn. Pistols at dawn. Yeah, it's all coming
(08:22):
together now, five am.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
If you win. What a great way to start the day.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I suppose.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I mean your breath, that breath of fresh air is
like a breath of freedom. It's like you're you know,
the first day of the rest of your life. This
is July eleventh, by the way of eighteen oh four.
But this is also larger than life, we should say.
The place they're meeting is at Weehawken. There's a ledge
by the Hudson River.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Nice set piece, right, very John WICKI.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
This has been a scenic, overlooked dueling brown for a while.
And this is a bit larger than life. It's very strange.
This was also the site where Hamilton's son died in
a duel.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
How about that.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
So both of these men, they're road by four men
members of their entourage. You don't want to tire out
your own now, you just got to hold up that
pistol to New Jersey and they arrived. Burr actually arrived
first at we Hawking around six an hour and a
half of rowan there's a lot of upper body workout.
Hamilton was fashionably late around thirty minutes later. And then
(09:24):
both men were accompanied by their which referred to often
as their seconds. So I guess second in command, their assistant,
their aide de camp.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
None of vallet.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, it's more of like a you know, a what's
the word kind of like it's your wingman. It's a wingman,
but it's someone that would have probably done like like
like a like an aid.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
A political aid perhaps, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Often sometimes a family member, right, that's right, a close
content on to be sure. And these these folks are
there to be witnesses, like how you have to have
a witness also signed for some contra legal documents. These
are two people who each have a horse in the race, right,
because they have chosen to second one of the duellists,
(10:08):
And they are saying they're going to be the people
who say whether or not this was conducted according to
the rules.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Oh so, maybe I'm misunderstanding, because it does.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
It does seem like these two men were kind of
political figures in their own right. Yes, is the second
just referring specifically to the parlance of dueling. This is
not necessarily like this was there, you know, someone that
was on their staff. These were just pit people that
they each chose to accompany them, you know, for the
purposes of fulfilling the uh I guess the rules of
(10:39):
the duel, the.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Du rules, Yeah, Hamilton. Hamilton's guy is Nathan aka Dirty
Nate Pendleton. He is a revolutionary war veteran and Georgia
District Court judge. By the way, I'm just making up
all these street names. It's crazy. You guys are letting
me get away. I don't know, dirty Nate.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Where are we to say?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Burr, on the other hand, was accompanied by William P.
Van Ness aka the Lockness Monster, a New York City
federal judge, adding to that Hamilton also had one doctor,
David Hassak, which is the only way to say that,
who was a professor of medicine and botany at Columbia
Columbia College at the time, now of course, known as
(11:21):
Columbia University.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
He also did hair and birthday parties, so yeah, light.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Of hand expert and balloon animals.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
This guy is important because you want to have a
doctor on site. Sure, duels might not always be fatal.
They can be to the death, but they can also
be to first blood. They can be to the one
party yielding like I yield, or you know, I am
sorry I said that you smell weird. You know, I'm
(11:52):
sorry I said that your spouse looks like an otter.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
That's where I will never inform other people that you
don't wash your butt.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yes, yeah, nobody needs to know that could you.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
You know, we see sometimes in situations of fights to
the death or duels as far back as you know,
medieval times, you could put forth a champion, yes, you know,
on your behalf.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It was also considered not necessarily the honorable things at
this point. Yeah, so what could happen in a duel
that reaches the point of actually firing or we're stabbing
at each other, is someone draws first blood and they're like,
do you yield? And then if they yield, then the
doctor comes by and it's like, hey, great job on.
(12:34):
Not everybody died immediately. Let's see if we can save
your life long enough for that hour and a half
row back to.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
The city and now I'll go.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And this is the origin of Dave and Busters. They
basically randomized, to the best of their ability who gets
to go on which side, you know, like in a
like in a battle wrap, you flip the coid and
you call heads or tails. So yeah, that's what they
(13:06):
do to pick the side of the ledge they're going
to each be stationed.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Pretty sure. I mentioned this as well in the Lincoln episode.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
But I'm a big fan of the John Quick movies,
and in the last one of the most recent one mean,
it's obviously franchised city. They're probably gonna keep making them.
But there's a duel that takes place at the Sacrique
in the Marmonto district of Paris.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And in order and before that, they have this whole
ritualized kind of like drawing of the like these tarot
cards to determine like what weapons they're gonna use all
of that. This is sort of a last grandiose version
of that, you know, like the but I like the
pomp and circumstance of this dual stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Who doesn't love a little pomp, you know what I mean?
There are worse ways to go, which might sound a
little nihilistic it it does, it does, it's but it's
nihilistic optimism. So they've got this, They've got this whole tour.
We've got our stage set, we've got our cast here
on this secluded ledge, we've got our sides, and you know,
(14:09):
at this point, Hamilton does have a storied military and
political career. He's a heck of a prolific writer, and
he had been pretty dope in the Continental Army. He
was George Washington's most trusted boy during the war. But
he probably hadn't actually shot a firearm in a minute
since the revolution. And that's not like riding a bike.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I was gonna say, But isn't it like riding a bike?
You say, no, okay, yeah, it does require muscle memory
and like a strength event, you know, just to like
you know, take the kickback and all of that.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, and you want to continually practice, that's right, right,
to keep keep your dead eye status.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
The skills can can achrophy over time.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And Burr. We don't know whether Burr had how active
he had been with firearm maintenance and practice after the
but there was some evidence that he had been practicing
with pistols with firearms at his crib out in Richmond
Hill for a while, because as soon as it seems
as though as soon as they agreed to the duel,
(15:14):
Burr was going out on a non infrequent basis and
just you know, doing the doing in the range, doing
the equivalent of knocking over cans.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
So I mean, I'm sure we're gonna get into this, Ben. Yeah,
I don't really know. But like if you kill somebody
in a duel, are you then a murderer?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It depends, Okay, it depends on the okay, well in
the eyes of God. Also, the next chapter in the story, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
we know and I know it is actually you know what,
I bet Alex does too. It Hamilton doesn't get to
in the weeds on this, but we're gonna give you
(15:52):
the actual We're gonna give you the actual story. Oh,
the Hamilton the musical.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Oh sorry, I thought, but Hamilton himself, as I didn't
get too into the weeds on practice.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Marksman absolutely not, and he needed spectacles. So Hi're standing there,
They're facing each other because they had no conflict resolution skills.
Hamilton's aiming, and he's like, psych, can I take a
second and put on my glasses? Dog? And then and
then uh, Burr is like, I don't care man, I
(16:20):
hate you. Do whatever you want. And then Hamilton apparently
Burr didn't know this. And there's a huge part of
the Hamilton Musical, So spoilers, folks, three to one spoiler alert.
Hamilton has already told his close friends, including his second
and he's already written about this in letters. He says, look,
(16:40):
I'm gonna throw away my shot. That's why it's that's
why there's such a big deal about. In the beginning
of the musical, he says, I'm gonna shoot wide of Burr.
I think duals suck. I think they're cruel.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, but I gotta say, and it's been batting.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Around in my head the whole time. Yeah, why did
he agree to it? It seems like such a boneheaded move,
such a roll of the dice for someone who's such
a you know, calculated political thinker, like you know, it
is an antiquated kind of problem conflict resolution scenario, and
it is of course pretty much illegal, despite them finding
(17:18):
these little loopholes. I would just think that, you know,
Hamilton was on top. Burr was kind of like this
little pisshand at this point, who everyone was kind of
just ready to be rid of. Why would Hamilton put
himself in this situation?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It was wild man, it was before Twitter.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I guess it's just so yeah, he's already decided he's
going to do this.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
He does the thing like you said, puts away his spectacles.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
And again there is also this is like a you know,
who shot Hans shot first, right, A lot of debate
as to who shot first, But Hamilton did miss. Burr,
on the other hand, did not. He hit him in
the abdomen right above his hip. How old are these
fellows at this point? They are both sixteen? But really,
(18:06):
but really, how old are they at this point? They
are both he got me?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
What are they max?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
They're fourteen? No, they're they're about They're pretty close in age. Actually, Hamilton,
I think at this point is I want to say
he's almost fifty.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
He's like forty seven. Forty seven is what the interwebs say.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
So it does make sense.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Not quite fifties.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, lyrically young and spry.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
But still even if that, you know how medicine was
and those who didn't live as long you get hit
in the hit man, that's that's not good, even if
you're not like super old.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah, we don't know. To be fair, the musical is
supposed to lionize our buddy Hamilton, so they don't mention
in the musical that it's not clear if he actually
missed on purpose to just prove his point like a
little suck boom, I'm class, or if he was totally
gonna kill Burr. Got shot first and that's that impact.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Through his shot for it, So I say hip, it
was more above the hip, but it did fracture a rib,
and it's absolutely ripped through his diaphragm, liver and then
lodged in his spine. I mean, they can't do spinal surgery,
you know, one hundred percent with one hundred percent precision,
now right, you know this is an absolute death blow.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
And he was realistic. He pretty much said, look, I'm
not gonna make it. I'm a dead man walking. So
they roll him back to Manhattan. He survives, He survives,
the first day. He passes away after thirty one hours
of being shot. He is lucky enough to be surrounded
by his family, which doesn't happen for everybody then or now.
(19:53):
And he passes away on July twelfth, eighteen oh four.
There's this huge outpouring of grief. His wife, Eliza is inconsolable,
and they have been through a lot, including infidelity, political struggles.
They lost the child just three years earlier. And Burr
(20:16):
is a cautionary tale about dueling. Oh yeah, the legal
department wants just to tell you, don't duel.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, for sure, don't duel. Well, you know it was
his son died in a duel, right.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yes, three years before.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I guess that's my point though, It's like knowing that,
why would he not only agree to it. You think
he could have said no on the grounds of humanitarian reasons,
like my lost a son, this is a barbaric practice. Instead,
it seems like he did it to try to make
a point, but the other guy didn't get the memo
and he got blasted.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Literally.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It just seems really shortsighted and dumb. But of course
Hamilton emerges from this for all the reasons that you
said as this martyr. You know, lionis is the word
you used. I think that's what the They wrote a
damn musical, I mean many years later. But the story,
you know, persevered, and you know, while Burr thought he
was going to come off looking like the big big
man on campus.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Here, Oh he's the heel. He's cancelled.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
He's the quizz basically, and he hoped to Burr had said, Okay,
I am going to show that I am upstanding, I
am gambling again, and I duel Hamilton honorably. I will
restore my reputation. My political career shall be resurrected. He
was wrong on both counts. He was super duper wrong.
(21:32):
The authorities issue these arrest warrants for Burr, and everybody
in New York is saying this guy is a murderer,
and they're like, well, you know, we were all soldiers
at some point we did some killer. He's like, no,
but he's one of the bad murderers, and so Burr
has to high tail it to Philadelphia where he invents
cream cheese.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Man, your misinformation in this episode is admirable. We're just
weaving it in, you're dropping it in. I love it. Yeah,
he was.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
It's true that he did have to go on the lamb.
He did not invent cream cheese, but he did have
to go to Philly. Yeah, it's true. And cream cheese
is objectively good.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It is great. Like it. I like it as an ingredient.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
It's wonderful as an ingredient. But as you get older,
you know what you start to favor just the plane plane,
the plain bagel playing cream cheese a bit. I like
a plain cream cheese on everything bagel. I like that too.
I extremes, yeah, nothing and everything. When we were quite
philosophical with our bagels. Also, I tried some everything bagel
(22:33):
flavored potato chips.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Oh yeah, excellent. Really well, I'll tell you this.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Let me before.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
There is a Trader Joe's Everything Bagel seasoning that you
can that is good?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Okay, but I bought the pre made everything bagel chips
to Trader Joe's. They insist upon themselves.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Okay, I can see that, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I bet they'd be good with a smoked salmon dip. Okay, yeah, sure, okay,
So so we have uh there we go, there we go.
I've got a like a fourteen pound can of chickpeas
I bought during the pandemic. Did I tell you about this?
They never go bad. I thought there was a regular
size can when I ordered them. But yeah, I have
prepper chickpeas. So I need to make some hummus. All right,
I'll bring some in for the class please. So anyway,
(23:14):
Aaron Burr is now a pariah, but he does not die.
He doesn't pass away. These we said what their late forties.
He doesn't pass away until he's like eighty years old.
So his life is just barely halfway through.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And his other adventures that his other adventures that the
Hamilton Musical won't tell you are pretty nuts. As our
research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams puts.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It, didn't he light off for the territories? Kind of
did he let out for the territories? I love that phrase.
He leaves the west. He leaves for the West ignomoniously
in eighteen oh five, and historians still aren't sure why
he was headed that way. People who didn't like him said,
we all know this snaky eel of a man, snake anony.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
He wants to he wants to steal, yeah, right, he
wants to steal the Louisiana territory parts of it, along
with Spanish lands. We all know that Burr is a jerk.
He's going to try to make his own country. And
because this guy's reputation was so bad, people would hear
(24:29):
that and they would go, yeah, I don't you know,
I don't have proof, but that guy is kind of a.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I know, he seems he seems really sketch, and he
you know, he does make contact with some British officials,
ministers from Spain, and even some revolutionary fighters you know,
from from Mexico. But a lot of these folks are
actually accused of colluding with him to for this this
(24:57):
imagined or real purpose, the ide of starting his own nation.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Or starting or launching a coup. And that sounds crazy
because if you.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Have ever against Washington against yeah, if you have ever
been to Washington, d C.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Caveat not talking about January sixth, but on any other
day of the year, if you've been to Washington, d C.
You know, security is a little tighty. You're right. So
it might sound strange, super villainy, uh, the stuff of
legend or fiction to talk about a coup in Washington,
d C. Now, But the United States was much younger,
much less secure. Oh yeah, so this is a viable, actionable.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Threat, decent enough militia at your back, you know, could
be done, could be.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Done, And a lot of coups happened with former military officers.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
And you know this people. People were aware at the
very least of some of these meetings that he was taking,
and the district attorney for Kentucky actually tattled on him
to Jefferson. So James Wilkinson, who was one of Burr's
co conspirators in this act activity, I guess, produced a
(26:10):
letter that accused Burr of the worst accusation that any
patriots you know, could be accused of treason, and Jefferson
that immediately orders his former VP to be taken in arrested.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, is it dead or alive. It's got to be alive.
They want him alive.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It's yeah, it's it's arrested so that he can stand trial.
That's the idea.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
But this is not necessarily stand trial for the murder
of Hamilton.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
This is for treason, This is for colluding with these.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
He never actually got tried for Hamilton's because that.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Was New York that wanted to try for Hamilton.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Yeah, this is like the federal government is coming out.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But is it true though? Was he actually doing this stuff?
It seems like a little bit trumped up.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I mean, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
We don't know. Still remains unclear. There's not a primary
source at this point from my research, there's not a
primary source at this point where you have like a
correspondence from a British official or Free to do It,
the Spanish minister saying, you know, like poor Cepuesto.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Or whatever, he was trying to do something. We just
don't there's just not enough proof to know exactly what
he was doing. And it was also very unsuccessful. It
could well have been just trying to make investments.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
You know, in another part of the country, or set
up a new life for himself not having to come.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Back to Ye.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
It was also a little finger character those you know.
So he's like chaos, he's a letter and all that well.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
And I want to do a little post mortem about
him and his character at the end here. But he
is put on trial, yes, and he is acquitted. A
Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall acquitted him, saying there
was a lack of evidence to fully you know, bring
him up on these charges, but that he had in
some form of fashion committee speak, but that he didn't
(28:01):
actually take any action against the US government.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
So usually you think, well, actually that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Usually sometimes just being tried is enough to torpedo your
reputation and your career, unless you're a certain former president,
which seems to not really take.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, we'll see how it goes. But absolutely there are
some things that just going to trial for them, even
if you are acquitted, it's gonna it's gonna ruin your life,
you know what I mean. Yeah, Like, oh, I went
to trial for driving puffins extinct. I didn't do I mean,
I didn't get convicted.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
You're probably not going to be elected the head of
the WWF or WWE World Wildlife Federation. Yeah yeah, wait
there's the other there or two, the one with the
pandam yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Oh I'm thinking world What am I thinking of? Well,
the w w Yeah, you're right, you're right, World Wildlife Foundation.
There's another thing too. But but you know, the question
will always be in this weird comparison. You'll say, I
wasn't convicted of killing all the puffins, and in any
time you're not in the room, people will go just
between us, how many how many puffins did he kill?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Though?
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Exactly like he just got kicked.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Where there's smoke, there's fire, right right, right right, And
so this is a death, This is a political death
before a physical death for.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Aaron Burr, he's already been absolutely dragged through the mud.
He was unpopular before the duel even took place. Now
he's been accused herber stands, I mean guilty of whether
it's a murder or not, killing a very popular political
figure and a former close friend, which means that this
(29:44):
guy is not trustworthy.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's right. Look how he treats his friends. He also
he goes around the world, around Europe, attempting to hang
his shingle. Attempting to recover some modicum of success is
how you will see it put often in airon biographies.
He leaves the US eighteen oh eight, the country that
he helped create, and he travels to England. Ooh his
(30:08):
at this time, if you're American, and he says, maybe
the English will support me, bankroll a Mexican revolution. British
officials say, oh, you know, what'd be great, get out,
and so he flees. Not interested, right, he flees to France.
He's like Napoleon, bro it's me the a bomb, we
(30:31):
do big stuff. And Napoleon goes.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
No, Yeah, he's a toxic person at this point. Nobody
wants to touch him, nobody wants to even be associated
with him.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
He is basically exiled. I mean, he's an untouchable, right.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And he's broke, so he can't go back to the
United States. He has to wait around in France for
a while. And it's not till eighteen eleven of friendship
is on the way back to the United States and
he's able basically to beggar rived exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
I mean, you know that probably didn't come easy either,
you know, nobody even wanted him as a passenger on
their freighter. So back home he changes his name sure
to Edwards, like Timothy Edwards.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah, exactly all that.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
In eighteen thirty three, he does marry an Eliza, which
it wasn't Eliza Hamilton's wife. Yeah, but weird unrelated, but
just she is wealthy, she is a socialite.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Their marriage doesn't last long because he burns through her
entire state. He waste all her money, He's broke again.
He dies in debt on September fourteenth, eighteen thirty six,
the same day his wife's divorce paperwork comes through.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
You know, I felt like, and I've said it a
couple of times that, like leading up to the duel
and all of that, he didn't seem like just absolute
villain material, you know. I mean everybody in politics has
their double dealings and slimy.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Behavior, played the saxophone, that's true. Barack Obama had a
tan suit one time.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I just mean, nobody, and especially in this area era,
I was beyond reproach, you know, like people were doing
backstabby kind of stuff all the time constantly. This dude
just sort of got that label sort of like it's
just absolutely emblazoned on his reputation.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
But he wasn't the only one. But then this last chapter.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Of his life, the idea of like being a bit
of a he sort of became the villain that everyone
said he was the whole time.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
He was a broken man. Yeah, and it's not a
fate that you want to wish on people. It's clearly possible.
I mean, history hinges on such tiny things. It's clearly
possible that had just a few other variables changed, he
would have been the border or he would have maybe
have led a more successful political career.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I mean, but to jump in here, and I think
this is an important thing. Election of eighteen hundred, I mean,
Hamilton basically said, I hate Thomas Jefferson. This guy's awful,
this guy's terrible. You need to vote for him instead
of Aaron Burr. Yes, I think there's I don't know
about Burr. I think just the awful things he did
didn't become well known until he did enough awful things.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah. Yeah, but then also you could I mean, when
you hold an objective mirror of retrospect up to the
founding dudes, you're gonna be hard pressed to find a
paragon of nobility amid any of them.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I think that's what I was getting at, And I'm
not getting this guy a pass. He obviously sucked, but
oh yeah, he's not good, not a good dude. But
like a lot of these other drunk yeah, well, we
never really talked about him getting drunk. Oh well, everybody
was drunk, okay at that point, and he.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Was very drunk when I think for a lot of
these things.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, he was kind of doing a Giuliani. Okay. Now,
guys like I just it just it's heartbreaking though, because
you don't you don't want to think about someone dying
or even having to live in such circumstances. And he also,
while he himself was seen as perhaps a traitor to
(34:23):
his friends in his political colleagues, he again toward the
end of his life he was suspected of being treason is,
but he was never proven to be a trader. He
just certainly hung out with people who later became traders.
And that's where we sew it up. What about our
buddy James Wilkinson, co conspirator, the guy that also we willie.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
He then like backstabbed Burr right by producing that letter
that led to his trial for treason. He also had
a bit of a circuitous path to trade her drum.
He won election and then used to leave after his term.
There's a great quote from an article from Team Mighty
(35:07):
over at We Are the Mighty dot com about Wilkinson
in this situation. It says, quote, Wilkinson was one of
the most trusted soldiers in the US Army history, serving
in both the Revolutionary War and the War of eighteen twelve.
He took on the role of governor of the newly
acquired Louisiana Territory and became one of the army's most
senior officers. There were many problems with Wilkinson's service, but
the foremost among them was that he had been spying
(35:28):
for the Spanish most of the time.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Whoops, not all of the time, but most of the time.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So that's treason too, yes, talking about the pot calling
the kettle black.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
When he did again turn Burr in for a treason.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
And then he almost gets caught up in this a
bomb nonsense. Aaron Burr's treeson trial. And so here's what
Wilkinson does when he finds out that he might be
revealed as a treasonist. Dude, a rude due himself, as
our friends of ridiculous crime would say, Wilkinson, we Willie
(36:04):
places the entirety of New Orleans under martial law and
locks up anyone who might be able to prove his involvement.
He never gets caught during his life. He does get
away clean. But his papers, his correspondencies, are discovered in
eighteen fifty four, and the stuff that's in them led
(36:25):
Theodore Roosevelt to say, in an old roy history, there's
no more despicable capacter.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah what what did he say?
Speaker 1 (36:35):
We don't know what does well?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
But again, I mean putting a whole city under martial
law just a savior butt, But that's the behavior of
a very powerful and desperate man. We mentioned Benedict Arnold,
which is I don't think eggs Benedict are named after
Benedict Arnold's I would like to think not that would
really turn me on eggs Benedict, because I like ex Benedict.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And BENEDICTO. Yeah, if you've seen things like turn right.
He is most famous for, you know, stepping on the
wrong side of the US government. He was raised in
a pretty good family in Norwich, Connecticut. He was originally
going to be a pharmacy guy. He apprenticed with an apothecary.
(37:19):
He joined the militia During the French and Indian War,
he became a successful private trader. The Revolutionary War breaks out,
he joins a continental army and during the war. In
his time as a military dude, he seems brave. He's skilled,
He's a good leader. He does. He's got a couple
of real hero moments. He helps capture Fort Ticonderoga. In
(37:43):
seventy five, he takes part in an unsuccessful attack on Quebec,
the British part of it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Much like our boy aarn burd Wait. Isn't that where
they Maybe that's whe they met each other? Was during
that that attack on Quebec the invasion member of the
unsuccessful invasion of Canada.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
This this invasion gives uh Benedict Arnold the promotion he's
aiming for too. He becomes a brigadier general.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Interesting, I mean, but you know it also benefited benefited burr.
By the way, I just googled, is eggs Benedict named
after Benedict Arnold? It is not, but the second most
popular googles was is egg Benedict named after Benedict cumberbatche
Oh wow, who is like, you know, an actor.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Reading this nourll of food history. I remember reading this,
but I can't. I can't remember how it got the
name was it?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Was it named for place, it was a person. It
does appear that it was. Let's see, uh, miss Legrand
Benedict grew bored of the menu at the particular place
and complained about its lack of variety and requested something
new to be made. Chef Ranhoffer spontaneously created the now
famous Eggs Benedict dish and named it after her. And
(38:55):
this would have been in uh, let's see the Del
mom Ah like state.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Delmonico's think, yeah, because that was the origin point for
so many amazing recipes.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
That's right. Eighteen.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
You can look at if you ever want to have fun, folks,
you can look at the old Delmonico menu. You will
be shocked by the prices and there, I say, you
might be shocked by some of the variety. They've got
some weird stuff on roast beast. Yeah. Our buddy Benny
does some other cool stuff. During the war, he gets
the support of George Washington. He distinguishes himself in multiple campaigns,
(39:33):
but it's the military. People are also gunning for the
same promotion you want. Arnold has enemies within the military,
and he's mad. He's spitting mad. In seventeen seventy seven,
a group of lower ranking dudes get promoted ahead of him.
They got a leap frog. He's thinking, I'm supposed to
(39:54):
be next in line. He marries a second time. He's
living it up in Philly, cream cheese every day, everything, bagel.
He racks up a lot of debt, and he's got
these money problems, and he's got this personal resentment that
he was not promoted, and he's like, I did my
(40:14):
level best, you know, why are these guys getting favors
over me?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
And that's when he turns to the dark time.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
That's when he turns to the Sith Lord stuff. That
probably was the deciding factor, the money problems and the resentment,
and no one finds out for a second. Seventeen eighty,
Arnold takes over West Point, and this is before it's
the home of the US Military Academy.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
It's just it's a base. Yeah, yeah for it exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
He contacts Sir Henry Clinton, the head of the British Forces,
and just says Hey, I got an idea. How about
I just give you the fort and my men?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
And the guy goes what.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Presumably for.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
What's the quid pro quote here, Ben, it's not really
stated clearly.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah. He meets with a British major, John Andre on
September twenty one of that same year, seventeen eighty, and
they crack a deal and he says, you, dirty American,
I will give you a large sum of money. Okay,
got it, and I would also promote you in the
British Army. So you could have that promotion.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
He'll never be accepted. What is he going to do
a fake British accent? They'll see right through.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
It, they might. But well, actually they probably sounded very
similar to these guys.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Oh that's a good point at that time. Yeah, you're earlier.
That's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
But he would definitely be marked as a trader. The
thing about rats is that would no one trust them. Yeah,
so he was still going to get a lot of money,
solve his money problems, get promoted to the British Army ostensibly. However,
he gets found out and his buddy, the point of
contact who can make this treason possible and worth it,
(42:00):
Andrey gets captured, Andre is murdered. Ben addict Arnold flees
to the enemy side. Help me, help me, help me.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Remember we had a thing, we had a deal. We're buddies.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Wait for me. And then they give him some British
troops and he commands them in Virginia in Connecticut. That's
got to be a trip. If you're on the American
side of it, you're like, hang on a second, Yeah,
I know that asshole. Yeah, that's the moment they have.
And eventually he survives.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
He does move to England, but he never gets all
of the accolades and you know, wealth and riches that
were promised him by the British. Once again, the story
of a former great American hero and patriot who died
like maybe not a pauper, but you know, definitely not
with reverence and respect and admiration, mainly in you know,
(42:55):
obscurity on June fourteenth, eighteen oh one.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
And lest we had done a down. Note. The Delmonico
Restaurant in New York is also responsible for baked Alaska
and Lobster Newburgh. I don't know, lobster Newburg got a
very distinct smell. I've cooked at home. It's it's kind
of a pain because you have to use brandy in
the recipe.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I like brandy and like a lobster bisk you know again,
like a sherry or sherry.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Yeah, I guess no, I mean you can tell. I
think we don't. I don't. I don't think either of
us really cook a ton with alcohol outside of like
some wine and like a beef shoe or something.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Or like a little white wine and like a pasta
of some kind of Oh that's what.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, yeah, I like. I like seafood pasta kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Definitely, yes, exactly Like I like doing shrimp and rice too,
with dice roasted red peppers, and then you put a
little I actually like to cook the rice with half
wine and half chicken broth instead of water.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
I use chicken broth just but I've never put wine in.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
It's really nice. It's also what you would do for
like a pay. I guess that's what we got. We've
got a story of one of America's biggest traders and
a bunch of other little side players and Hamilton and
all of the things.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
And what a wild ride.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
We know.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
We made this a two part episode, folks. That's because
there's so much stuff. We wanted to preemptive. Yeah, preemptive
on purpose. And we want to thank the following people
so much for making the show possible. First off, you
ridiculous historians, thanks for tuning in. Second well, first a,
our super producer and research associate for this series, mister
(44:35):
Max Williams. Who else? Who else?
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Oh? You know, all the heads.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Jonathan Strickland, the quizter, our personal Aaron Burr, Benedict Arnold
and the other guy what was his name, the most
despicable one, James Wilkinson.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
That's it, Wilkinson. You.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I also want to be fair and say like it was.
It was a tremendous pleasure to hang out with Jonathan
a little bit in Vegas.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Absolutely, he almost got assassinated by seafood tower. He was
sitting next to him. Yes, this is a true story.
He has a shellfish justly allergic to shellfish. Christopher Oscio
is here in spirit, Heves, Jeff Coke, Alex Williams, who
composed our theme.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Alex.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I don't know your last name, but who's visiting us
in the studio Alex circa nineteen hundred.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
There we go. I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, you go with that one, Alex. You want another
one that's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
That's pretty good Alex circa nineteen, that has a pretty
good history nickname.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Well, we won't expose real birthday. Okay, that's unfair, but
but yes and no. Of course, of course, of course,
thanks to you man.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
He was well Ben, I'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
For more podcasts from iHeart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. This is part two to two of
Aaron Burr Burr Perfect America's Drunk Uncle. Big shout out
to our super producer research associate mister Max Williams. I'm ben,
big shout out to you know. Oh, we got a
lot of weird stuff ahead, sad stuff.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
A lot of weird stuff, sad stuff, copiously little drinking.
But I think Matt Max points out somewhere in this
episode that everyone was just kind of drunk all the time.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
And Burr, I think he just the the whole drunk
uncle thing.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
It's just more of like a kind of a crystallization
of his personality.
Speaker 1 (01:06):
And I'm still this will make sense later, folks. I'm
still looking at this old Delmonico's menu and I just
can't figure out some of the things on here. What
is cabinet putting.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
It's just like putting that you leave in a cabinet
for a really long time and just see what happens.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Roll the dice.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
This battle for New York is bad, and on some level, Burr,
despite his own miscalculations and his own warts and imperfections
and ugly bumps of her career. He says, Hamilton is
one of the big reasons I lost this election. That's
probably not true, but what we're saying is there was
already a lot of baggage and these guys were carrying around.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Oh yeah, I mean the biography we're referring to refers
to Hamilton as despising Burr at this point. Yes, so
there's definitely like serious bad blood between these gentlemen that
is just starting to metastasized.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Can blood metastasize? Sure?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
For the purposes of description, you get it, you get blood.
Cancer is a real thing, frightening. We actually talked about that,
I think on our Saxophone episode at some point.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
Ah, yes, the Sexyphone episode. Yes.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
And so this big duel that is one of the
climactic moments of the Hamilton Musical. It happens because of
a kind of a slight thing, like a tiny misstep,
where ordinarily you would just talk it out with your buddy,
but at this point their relationship is like cans of
open paint and oily rags in a non ventilated room
(02:36):
where someone keeps playing with a lighter, even though the
lighters weren't invented yet. You get it. So in eighteen
o four, it's February, it's cold out. There's a guy,
doctor Charles D. Cooper, aka the Coops is what is
boys called them back in the day.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
They're all hanging with mister Cooper.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
So the Coops is at this dinner party and at
this party, you know, which is just an opportunity for
network and talking for these guys, thank you for the beatbacks.
At this party, Hamilton's like, you know, who sucks Aaron Burr?
That guy's just like the worst. And then some people
turn around and he like stands up. I'm picturing it
(03:14):
like nineteen like nineteen eighties comic, you know, and standing
up and he's like, first off, Burr.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
What's the deal with the burg guy? Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
An article on PBS The American Experience described him as
speaking eloquently and forcefully against Burr. Cooper later wrote a
letter to Philip I think it's Skylar, and I think
I might have said Shoy Schuler earlier. It's s c
h u y l e R. It's an unfair name,
(03:46):
and I think so too. It's like one of those,
it's like worst, It's like Hermione. You know, you read
it in the book, you think it in your head,
and then you say it out loud and you were
wrong the whole time.
Speaker 1 (03:53):
Or New Madrid out in uh out in Missouri.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
That's right, exactly.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
So in this letter he made a reference to a
particularly quote despicable opinion that Hamilton had had shared about Burn.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
He was like, I don't think he washes his butt. Yeah,
and everyone said, you know what, I can see it
seems legit.
Speaker 2 (04:15):
And then, of course, you know, to add insult to injury,
the letter gets.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Published in the New York newspaper. How does that? That
doesn't seem right? That seems real dirty?
Speaker 1 (04:24):
Well, this is also their main source of publicly shared
in This is their Twitter, the social.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Media, but like to publish a private was it with
his knowledge he or was it with the writer's knowledge?
Speaker 1 (04:40):
This This letter is written by Cooper to Hamilton's father
in law, so the word gets around. It's Cooper who's
telling tales outside of school, that's right. So Hamilton is
not asked about this being published. We've seen examples of
this too. I believe it was that remember the duel
(05:01):
with Lincoln where there were like some letters, there was
a letter talking to went too far because that went
a little too far. So you're right, that was exactly
the Twitter comparison is. This is completely appropriate. So in
June Burr sees this. Obviously he's humiliated once again. You know,
he's not happy, he's not happy about it. He writes
(05:23):
a letter to Hamilton demanding satisfaction, sir, or at the
very least, what's up to what gifts? Bro? WTF? And
so they have this correspondence and you can see this
in the musical where they go back and forth with
letters signing things your obedient servant, because they were very
polite even when they were saying terrible things to and
(05:46):
about each other. Ultimately, yes, Bird demands that Hamilton denies
ever talking trash about him, which sounds kind of childish
for grown men, but he's says, that's the only thing
that will repair this. You got to go out in
public and say I'm not that bad, and you never
(06:08):
set that stuff at the party. And this is back
when you could just sort of erase history that way.
But Hamilton says, hey, I'm principal too, dog, I'm not
gonna comply with your demand that would sacrifice my own
political career. And yes, my eldest son, Philip died in
a duel just three years ago. I oppose dueling.
Speaker 3 (06:30):
But I'm also you know, not gonna be a lill baby.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
But if you want to fart around, you're gonna find out.
I heard you don't wash your butt.
Speaker 3 (06:37):
That's that's what they say. I think perhaps.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Really classing it up for a special guest.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
Alex, I know that's what we do, that's how we
do it. We're all class here.
Speaker 2 (06:46):
That's wild man. I didn't realize that his son had
died in a duel. That was also like the idea
of dying in a duel. It just it seems like
so far removed from our modern day. I guess it's
you know, it's it's more of like a gentlemanly way
to die, but also a very unfortunate, preventable way to die.
Speaker 3 (07:04):
Now it's just called getting shot.
Speaker 1 (07:06):
Duels were it's I was thinking about this as we
were getting ready for this episode last week. You know,
duels back then at that time were kind of like
how cannabis law is in the United States today.
Speaker 2 (07:20):
We talked about this in the Lincoln episode to where
they had to find a spot that was like.
Speaker 3 (07:24):
A gray area where chill spot.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
It was decriminalized, you know, dueling, possession of a dueling
pistol was okay.
Speaker 1 (07:31):
Yeah, so duels are illegal at the time, both in
New York and in New Jersey. But as they say,
everything's legal in New Jersey. So the punishment for dueling,
for beefing up with pistols or swords, sabers or weapon
of choice, it's a lot more chill in New Jersey.
It's a lot less of a serious thing. So if
(07:54):
you kill someone in Jersey and you say, hey, we're
having a duel, I'll be like, I don't like it,
but hey, be on your way.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Indeed, so they did need to maintain an air of
secrecy around the right. It's because of the ify legal
you know waters and speaking of waters, in order to
keep that secret, they both left Manhattan separately from separate
docks before dawn. Pistols at dawn. Yeah, it's all coming
(08:22):
together now, five am.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
If you win. What a great way to start the day.
Speaker 3 (08:26):
I suppose.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
I mean your breath, that breath of fresh air is
like a breath of freedom. It's like you're you know,
the first day of the rest of your life. This
is July eleventh, by the way of eighteen oh four.
But this is also larger than life, we should say.
The place they're meeting is at Weehawken. There's a ledge
by the Hudson River.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Nice set piece, right, very John WICKI.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
This has been a scenic, overlooked dueling brown for a while.
And this is a bit larger than life. It's very strange.
This was also the site where Hamilton's son died in
a duel.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
How about that.
Speaker 2 (09:01):
So both of these men, they're road by four men
members of their entourage. You don't want to tire out
your own now, you just got to hold up that
pistol to New Jersey and they arrived. Burr actually arrived
first at we Hawking around six an hour and a
half of rowan there's a lot of upper body workout.
Hamilton was fashionably late around thirty minutes later. And then
(09:24):
both men were accompanied by their which referred to often
as their seconds. So I guess second in command, their assistant,
their aide de camp.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
None of vallet.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, it's more of like a you know, a what's
the word kind of like it's your wingman. It's a wingman,
but it's someone that would have probably done like like
like a like an aid.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
A political aid perhaps, Oh yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:46):
Often sometimes a family member, right, that's right, a close
content on to be sure. And these these folks are
there to be witnesses, like how you have to have
a witness also signed for some contra legal documents. These
are two people who each have a horse in the race, right,
because they have chosen to second one of the duellists,
(10:08):
And they are saying they're going to be the people
who say whether or not this was conducted according to
the rules.
Speaker 3 (10:15):
Oh so, maybe I'm misunderstanding, because it does.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
It does seem like these two men were kind of
political figures in their own right. Yes, is the second
just referring specifically to the parlance of dueling. This is
not necessarily like this was there, you know, someone that
was on their staff. These were just pit people that
they each chose to accompany them, you know, for the
purposes of fulfilling the uh I guess the rules of
(10:39):
the duel, the.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
Du rules, Yeah, Hamilton. Hamilton's guy is Nathan aka Dirty
Nate Pendleton. He is a revolutionary war veteran and Georgia
District Court judge. By the way, I'm just making up
all these street names. It's crazy. You guys are letting
me get away. I don't know, dirty Nate.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Where are we to say?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
Burr, on the other hand, was accompanied by William P.
Van Ness aka the Lockness Monster, a New York City
federal judge, adding to that Hamilton also had one doctor,
David Hassak, which is the only way to say that,
who was a professor of medicine and botany at Columbia
Columbia College at the time, now of course, known as
(11:21):
Columbia University.
Speaker 1 (11:22):
He also did hair and birthday parties, so yeah, light.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
Of hand expert and balloon animals.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
This guy is important because you want to have a
doctor on site. Sure, duels might not always be fatal.
They can be to the death, but they can also
be to first blood. They can be to the one
party yielding like I yield, or you know, I am
sorry I said that you smell weird. You know, I'm
(11:52):
sorry I said that your spouse looks like an otter.
Speaker 4 (11:55):
That's where I will never inform other people that you
don't wash your butt.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
Yes, yeah, nobody needs to know that could you.
Speaker 2 (12:03):
You know, we see sometimes in situations of fights to
the death or duels as far back as you know,
medieval times, you could put forth a champion, yes, you know,
on your behalf.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
It was also considered not necessarily the honorable things at
this point. Yeah, so what could happen in a duel
that reaches the point of actually firing or we're stabbing
at each other, is someone draws first blood and they're like,
do you yield? And then if they yield, then the
doctor comes by and it's like, hey, great job on.
(12:34):
Not everybody died immediately. Let's see if we can save
your life long enough for that hour and a half
row back to.
Speaker 3 (12:41):
The city and now I'll go.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
And this is the origin of Dave and Busters. They
basically randomized, to the best of their ability who gets
to go on which side, you know, like in a
like in a battle wrap, you flip the coid and
you call heads or tails. So yeah, that's what they
(13:06):
do to pick the side of the ledge they're going
to each be stationed.
Speaker 3 (13:10):
Pretty sure. I mentioned this as well in the Lincoln episode.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
But I'm a big fan of the John Quick movies,
and in the last one of the most recent one mean,
it's obviously franchised city. They're probably gonna keep making them.
But there's a duel that takes place at the Sacrique
in the Marmonto district of Paris.
Speaker 1 (13:28):
Yea.
Speaker 2 (13:29):
And in order and before that, they have this whole
ritualized kind of like drawing of the like these tarot
cards to determine like what weapons they're gonna use all
of that. This is sort of a last grandiose version
of that, you know, like the but I like the
pomp and circumstance of this dual stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:46):
Who doesn't love a little pomp, you know what I mean?
There are worse ways to go, which might sound a
little nihilistic it it does, it does, it's but it's
nihilistic optimism. So they've got this, They've got this whole tour.
We've got our stage set, we've got our cast here
on this secluded ledge, we've got our sides, and you know,
(14:09):
at this point, Hamilton does have a storied military and
political career. He's a heck of a prolific writer, and
he had been pretty dope in the Continental Army. He
was George Washington's most trusted boy during the war. But
he probably hadn't actually shot a firearm in a minute
since the revolution. And that's not like riding a bike.
Speaker 2 (14:33):
I was gonna say, But isn't it like riding a bike?
You say, no, okay, yeah, it does require muscle memory
and like a strength event, you know, just to like
you know, take the kickback and all of that.
Speaker 1 (14:43):
Well, and you want to continually practice, that's right, right,
to keep keep your dead eye status.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
The skills can can achrophy over time.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
And Burr. We don't know whether Burr had how active
he had been with firearm maintenance and practice after the
but there was some evidence that he had been practicing
with pistols with firearms at his crib out in Richmond
Hill for a while, because as soon as it seems
as though as soon as they agreed to the duel,
(15:14):
Burr was going out on a non infrequent basis and
just you know, doing the doing in the range, doing
the equivalent of knocking over cans.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
That's right.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
So I mean, I'm sure we're gonna get into this, Ben. Yeah,
I don't really know. But like if you kill somebody
in a duel, are you then a murderer?
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It depends, Okay, it depends on the okay, well in
the eyes of God. Also, the next chapter in the story, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes,
we know and I know it is actually you know what,
I bet Alex does too. It Hamilton doesn't get to
in the weeds on this, but we're gonna give you
(15:52):
the actual We're gonna give you the actual story. Oh,
the Hamilton the musical.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Oh sorry, I thought, but Hamilton himself, as I didn't
get too into the weeds on practice.
Speaker 1 (16:00):
Marksman absolutely not, and he needed spectacles. So Hi're standing there,
They're facing each other because they had no conflict resolution skills.
Hamilton's aiming, and he's like, psych, can I take a
second and put on my glasses? Dog? And then and
then uh, Burr is like, I don't care man, I
(16:20):
hate you. Do whatever you want. And then Hamilton apparently
Burr didn't know this. And there's a huge part of
the Hamilton Musical, So spoilers, folks, three to one spoiler alert.
Hamilton has already told his close friends, including his second
and he's already written about this in letters. He says, look,
(16:40):
I'm gonna throw away my shot. That's why it's that's
why there's such a big deal about. In the beginning
of the musical, he says, I'm gonna shoot wide of Burr.
I think duals suck. I think they're cruel.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, but I gotta say, and it's been batting.
Speaker 2 (16:55):
Around in my head the whole time. Yeah, why did
he agree to it? It seems like such a boneheaded move,
such a roll of the dice for someone who's such
a you know, calculated political thinker, like you know, it
is an antiquated kind of problem conflict resolution scenario, and
it is of course pretty much illegal, despite them finding
(17:18):
these little loopholes. I would just think that, you know,
Hamilton was on top. Burr was kind of like this
little pisshand at this point, who everyone was kind of
just ready to be rid of. Why would Hamilton put
himself in this situation?
Speaker 1 (17:33):
It was wild man, it was before Twitter.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
I guess it's just so yeah, he's already decided he's
going to do this.
Speaker 3 (17:40):
He does the thing like you said, puts away his spectacles.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
And again there is also this is like a you know,
who shot Hans shot first, right, A lot of debate
as to who shot first, But Hamilton did miss. Burr,
on the other hand, did not. He hit him in
the abdomen right above his hip. How old are these
fellows at this point? They are both sixteen? But really,
(18:06):
but really, how old are they at this point? They
are both he got me?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
What are they max?
Speaker 1 (18:12):
They're fourteen? No, they're they're about They're pretty close in age. Actually, Hamilton,
I think at this point is I want to say
he's almost fifty.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
He's like forty seven. Forty seven is what the interwebs say.
Speaker 3 (18:28):
So it does make sense.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Not quite fifties.
Speaker 3 (18:30):
Yeah, lyrically young and spry.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
But still even if that, you know how medicine was
and those who didn't live as long you get hit
in the hit man, that's that's not good, even if
you're not like super old.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
Yeah, we don't know. To be fair, the musical is
supposed to lionize our buddy Hamilton, so they don't mention
in the musical that it's not clear if he actually
missed on purpose to just prove his point like a
little suck boom, I'm class, or if he was totally
gonna kill Burr. Got shot first and that's that impact.
Speaker 2 (19:05):
Through his shot for it, So I say hip, it
was more above the hip, but it did fracture a rib,
and it's absolutely ripped through his diaphragm, liver and then
lodged in his spine. I mean, they can't do spinal surgery,
you know, one hundred percent with one hundred percent precision,
now right, you know this is an absolute death blow.
Speaker 1 (19:28):
And he was realistic. He pretty much said, look, I'm
not gonna make it. I'm a dead man walking. So
they roll him back to Manhattan. He survives, He survives,
the first day. He passes away after thirty one hours
of being shot. He is lucky enough to be surrounded
by his family, which doesn't happen for everybody then or now.
(19:53):
And he passes away on July twelfth, eighteen oh four.
There's this huge outpouring of grief. His wife, Eliza is inconsolable,
and they have been through a lot, including infidelity, political struggles.
They lost the child just three years earlier. And Burr
(20:16):
is a cautionary tale about dueling. Oh yeah, the legal
department wants just to tell you, don't duel.
Speaker 3 (20:23):
Yeah, for sure, don't duel. Well, you know it was
his son died in a duel, right.
Speaker 1 (20:27):
Yes, three years before.
Speaker 2 (20:28):
I guess that's my point though, It's like knowing that,
why would he not only agree to it. You think
he could have said no on the grounds of humanitarian reasons,
like my lost a son, this is a barbaric practice. Instead,
it seems like he did it to try to make
a point, but the other guy didn't get the memo
and he got blasted.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Literally.
Speaker 2 (20:48):
It just seems really shortsighted and dumb. But of course
Hamilton emerges from this for all the reasons that you
said as this martyr. You know, lionis is the word
you used. I think that's what the They wrote a
damn musical, I mean many years later. But the story,
you know, persevered, and you know, while Burr thought he
was going to come off looking like the big big
man on campus.
Speaker 3 (21:07):
Here, Oh he's the heel. He's cancelled.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
He's the quizz basically, and he hoped to Burr had said, Okay,
I am going to show that I am upstanding, I
am gambling again, and I duel Hamilton honorably. I will
restore my reputation. My political career shall be resurrected. He
was wrong on both counts. He was super duper wrong.
(21:32):
The authorities issue these arrest warrants for Burr, and everybody
in New York is saying this guy is a murderer,
and they're like, well, you know, we were all soldiers
at some point we did some killer. He's like, no,
but he's one of the bad murderers, and so Burr
has to high tail it to Philadelphia where he invents
cream cheese.
Speaker 3 (21:53):
Man, your misinformation in this episode is admirable. We're just
weaving it in, you're dropping it in. I love it. Yeah,
he was.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
It's true that he did have to go on the lamb.
He did not invent cream cheese, but he did have
to go to Philly. Yeah, it's true. And cream cheese
is objectively good.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
It is great. Like it. I like it as an ingredient.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
It's wonderful as an ingredient. But as you get older,
you know what you start to favor just the plane plane,
the plain bagel playing cream cheese a bit. I like
a plain cream cheese on everything bagel. I like that too.
I extremes, yeah, nothing and everything. When we were quite
philosophical with our bagels. Also, I tried some everything bagel
(22:33):
flavored potato chips.
Speaker 3 (22:35):
Oh yeah, excellent. Really well, I'll tell you this.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
Let me before.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
There is a Trader Joe's Everything Bagel seasoning that you
can that is good?
Speaker 1 (22:44):
Okay, but I bought the pre made everything bagel chips
to Trader Joe's. They insist upon themselves.
Speaker 3 (22:50):
Okay, I can see that, you know.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
I bet they'd be good with a smoked salmon dip. Okay, yeah, sure, okay,
So so we have uh there we go, there we go.
I've got a like a fourteen pound can of chickpeas
I bought during the pandemic. Did I tell you about this?
They never go bad. I thought there was a regular
size can when I ordered them. But yeah, I have
prepper chickpeas. So I need to make some hummus. All right,
I'll bring some in for the class please. So anyway,
(23:14):
Aaron Burr is now a pariah, but he does not die.
He doesn't pass away. These we said what their late forties.
He doesn't pass away until he's like eighty years old.
So his life is just barely halfway through.
Speaker 3 (23:29):
Yeah, that's wild.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
And his other adventures that his other adventures that the
Hamilton Musical won't tell you are pretty nuts. As our
research associate for this episode, mister Max Williams puts.
Speaker 2 (23:44):
It, didn't he light off for the territories? Kind of
did he let out for the territories? I love that phrase.
He leaves the west. He leaves for the West ignomoniously
in eighteen oh five, and historians still aren't sure why
he was headed that way. People who didn't like him said,
we all know this snaky eel of a man, snake anony.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
He wants to he wants to steal, yeah, right, he
wants to steal the Louisiana territory parts of it, along
with Spanish lands. We all know that Burr is a jerk.
He's going to try to make his own country. And
because this guy's reputation was so bad, people would hear
(24:29):
that and they would go, yeah, I don't you know,
I don't have proof, but that guy is kind of a.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
I know, he seems he seems really sketch, and he
you know, he does make contact with some British officials,
ministers from Spain, and even some revolutionary fighters you know,
from from Mexico. But a lot of these folks are
actually accused of colluding with him to for this this
(24:57):
imagined or real purpose, the ide of starting his own nation.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Or starting or launching a coup. And that sounds crazy
because if you.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Have ever against Washington against yeah, if you have ever
been to Washington, d C.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Caveat not talking about January sixth, but on any other
day of the year, if you've been to Washington, d C.
You know, security is a little tighty. You're right. So
it might sound strange, super villainy, uh, the stuff of
legend or fiction to talk about a coup in Washington,
d C. Now, But the United States was much younger,
much less secure. Oh yeah, so this is a viable, actionable.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Threat, decent enough militia at your back, you know, could
be done, could be.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Done, And a lot of coups happened with former military officers.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
And you know this people. People were aware at the
very least of some of these meetings that he was taking,
and the district attorney for Kentucky actually tattled on him
to Jefferson. So James Wilkinson, who was one of Burr's
co conspirators in this act activity, I guess, produced a
(26:10):
letter that accused Burr of the worst accusation that any
patriots you know, could be accused of treason, and Jefferson
that immediately orders his former VP to be taken in arrested.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (26:25):
Yeah, is it dead or alive. It's got to be alive.
They want him alive.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
It's yeah, it's it's arrested so that he can stand trial.
That's the idea.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
But this is not necessarily stand trial for the murder
of Hamilton.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
This is for treason, This is for colluding with these.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
He never actually got tried for Hamilton's because that.
Speaker 3 (26:48):
Was New York that wanted to try for Hamilton.
Speaker 4 (26:50):
Yeah, this is like the federal government is coming out.
Speaker 2 (26:53):
But is it true though? Was he actually doing this stuff?
It seems like a little bit trumped up.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
I mean, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (27:00):
We don't know. Still remains unclear. There's not a primary
source at this point from my research, there's not a
primary source at this point where you have like a
correspondence from a British official or Free to do It,
the Spanish minister saying, you know, like poor Cepuesto.
Speaker 3 (27:19):
Or whatever, he was trying to do something. We just
don't there's just not enough proof to know exactly what
he was doing. And it was also very unsuccessful. It
could well have been just trying to make investments.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
You know, in another part of the country, or set
up a new life for himself not having to come.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Back to Ye.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
It was also a little finger character those you know.
So he's like chaos, he's a letter and all that well.
Speaker 2 (27:41):
And I want to do a little post mortem about
him and his character at the end here. But he
is put on trial, yes, and he is acquitted. A
Supreme Court Chief Justice John Marshall acquitted him, saying there
was a lack of evidence to fully you know, bring
him up on these charges, but that he had in
some form of fashion committee speak, but that he didn't
(28:01):
actually take any action against the US government.
Speaker 3 (28:05):
So usually you think, well, actually that's not the case.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Usually sometimes just being tried is enough to torpedo your
reputation and your career, unless you're a certain former president,
which seems to not really take.
Speaker 1 (28:17):
Yeah, we'll see how it goes. But absolutely there are
some things that just going to trial for them, even
if you are acquitted, it's gonna it's gonna ruin your life,
you know what I mean. Yeah, Like, oh, I went
to trial for driving puffins extinct. I didn't do I mean,
I didn't get convicted.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
You're probably not going to be elected the head of
the WWF or WWE World Wildlife Federation. Yeah yeah, wait
there's the other there or two, the one with the
pandam yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Oh I'm thinking world What am I thinking of? Well,
the w w Yeah, you're right, you're right, World Wildlife Foundation.
There's another thing too. But but you know, the question
will always be in this weird comparison. You'll say, I
wasn't convicted of killing all the puffins, and in any
time you're not in the room, people will go just
between us, how many how many puffins did he kill?
Speaker 2 (29:10):
Though?
Speaker 3 (29:11):
Exactly like he just got kicked.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Where there's smoke, there's fire, right right, right right, And
so this is a death, This is a political death
before a physical death for.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Aaron Burr, he's already been absolutely dragged through the mud.
He was unpopular before the duel even took place. Now
he's been accused herber stands, I mean guilty of whether
it's a murder or not, killing a very popular political
figure and a former close friend, which means that this
(29:44):
guy is not trustworthy.
Speaker 1 (29:46):
That's right. Look how he treats his friends. He also
he goes around the world, around Europe, attempting to hang
his shingle. Attempting to recover some modicum of success is
how you will see it put often in airon biographies.
He leaves the US eighteen oh eight, the country that
he helped create, and he travels to England. Ooh his
(30:08):
at this time, if you're American, and he says, maybe
the English will support me, bankroll a Mexican revolution. British
officials say, oh, you know, what'd be great, get out,
and so he flees. Not interested, right, he flees to France.
He's like Napoleon, bro it's me the a bomb, we
(30:31):
do big stuff. And Napoleon goes.
Speaker 2 (30:34):
No, Yeah, he's a toxic person at this point. Nobody
wants to touch him, nobody wants to even be associated
with him.
Speaker 3 (30:43):
He is basically exiled. I mean, he's an untouchable, right.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
And he's broke, so he can't go back to the
United States. He has to wait around in France for
a while. And it's not till eighteen eleven of friendship
is on the way back to the United States and
he's able basically to beggar rived exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
I mean, you know that probably didn't come easy either,
you know, nobody even wanted him as a passenger on
their freighter. So back home he changes his name sure
to Edwards, like Timothy Edwards.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
Yeah, exactly all that.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
In eighteen thirty three, he does marry an Eliza, which
it wasn't Eliza Hamilton's wife. Yeah, but weird unrelated, but
just she is wealthy, she is a socialite.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
Their marriage doesn't last long because he burns through her
entire state. He waste all her money, He's broke again.
He dies in debt on September fourteenth, eighteen thirty six,
the same day his wife's divorce paperwork comes through.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
You know, I felt like, and I've said it a
couple of times that, like leading up to the duel
and all of that, he didn't seem like just absolute
villain material, you know. I mean everybody in politics has
their double dealings and slimy.
Speaker 1 (32:13):
Behavior, played the saxophone, that's true. Barack Obama had a
tan suit one time.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
I just mean, nobody, and especially in this area era,
I was beyond reproach, you know, like people were doing
backstabby kind of stuff all the time constantly. This dude
just sort of got that label sort of like it's
just absolutely emblazoned on his reputation.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
But he wasn't the only one. But then this last chapter.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
Of his life, the idea of like being a bit
of a he sort of became the villain that everyone
said he was the whole time.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
He was a broken man. Yeah, and it's not a
fate that you want to wish on people. It's clearly possible.
I mean, history hinges on such tiny things. It's clearly
possible that had just a few other variables changed, he
would have been the border or he would have maybe
have led a more successful political career.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I mean, but to jump in here, and I think
this is an important thing. Election of eighteen hundred, I mean,
Hamilton basically said, I hate Thomas Jefferson. This guy's awful,
this guy's terrible. You need to vote for him instead
of Aaron Burr. Yes, I think there's I don't know
about Burr. I think just the awful things he did
didn't become well known until he did enough awful things.
Speaker 1 (33:29):
Yeah. Yeah, but then also you could I mean, when
you hold an objective mirror of retrospect up to the
founding dudes, you're gonna be hard pressed to find a
paragon of nobility amid any of them.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
I think that's what I was getting at, And I'm
not getting this guy a pass. He obviously sucked, but
oh yeah, he's not good, not a good dude. But
like a lot of these other drunk yeah, well, we
never really talked about him getting drunk. Oh well, everybody
was drunk, okay at that point, and he.
Speaker 3 (33:58):
Was very drunk when I think for a lot of
these things.
Speaker 1 (34:01):
Yeah, he was kind of doing a Giuliani. Okay. Now,
guys like I just it just it's heartbreaking though, because
you don't you don't want to think about someone dying
or even having to live in such circumstances. And he also,
while he himself was seen as perhaps a traitor to
(34:23):
his friends in his political colleagues, he again toward the
end of his life he was suspected of being treason is,
but he was never proven to be a trader. He
just certainly hung out with people who later became traders.
And that's where we sew it up. What about our
buddy James Wilkinson, co conspirator, the guy that also we willie.
Speaker 2 (34:45):
He then like backstabbed Burr right by producing that letter
that led to his trial for treason. He also had
a bit of a circuitous path to trade her drum.
He won election and then used to leave after his term.
There's a great quote from an article from Team Mighty
(35:07):
over at We Are the Mighty dot com about Wilkinson
in this situation. It says, quote, Wilkinson was one of
the most trusted soldiers in the US Army history, serving
in both the Revolutionary War and the War of eighteen twelve.
He took on the role of governor of the newly
acquired Louisiana Territory and became one of the army's most
senior officers. There were many problems with Wilkinson's service, but
the foremost among them was that he had been spying
(35:28):
for the Spanish most of the time.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
Whoops, not all of the time, but most of the time.
Speaker 2 (35:35):
So that's treason too, yes, talking about the pot calling
the kettle black.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
When he did again turn Burr in for a treason.
Speaker 1 (35:44):
And then he almost gets caught up in this a
bomb nonsense. Aaron Burr's treeson trial. And so here's what
Wilkinson does when he finds out that he might be
revealed as a treasonist. Dude, a rude due himself, as
our friends of ridiculous crime would say, Wilkinson, we Willie
(36:04):
places the entirety of New Orleans under martial law and
locks up anyone who might be able to prove his involvement.
He never gets caught during his life. He does get
away clean. But his papers, his correspondencies, are discovered in
eighteen fifty four, and the stuff that's in them led
(36:25):
Theodore Roosevelt to say, in an old roy history, there's
no more despicable capacter.
Speaker 3 (36:32):
Yeah what what did he say?
Speaker 1 (36:35):
We don't know what does well?
Speaker 2 (36:36):
But again, I mean putting a whole city under martial
law just a savior butt, But that's the behavior of
a very powerful and desperate man. We mentioned Benedict Arnold,
which is I don't think eggs Benedict are named after
Benedict Arnold's I would like to think not that would
really turn me on eggs Benedict, because I like ex Benedict.
Speaker 1 (36:58):
And BENEDICTO. Yeah, if you've seen things like turn right.
He is most famous for, you know, stepping on the
wrong side of the US government. He was raised in
a pretty good family in Norwich, Connecticut. He was originally
going to be a pharmacy guy. He apprenticed with an apothecary.
(37:19):
He joined the militia During the French and Indian War,
he became a successful private trader. The Revolutionary War breaks out,
he joins a continental army and during the war. In
his time as a military dude, he seems brave. He's skilled,
He's a good leader. He does. He's got a couple
of real hero moments. He helps capture Fort Ticonderoga. In
(37:43):
seventy five, he takes part in an unsuccessful attack on Quebec,
the British part of it.
Speaker 2 (37:50):
Much like our boy aarn burd Wait. Isn't that where
they Maybe that's whe they met each other? Was during
that that attack on Quebec the invasion member of the
unsuccessful invasion of Canada.
Speaker 1 (38:00):
This this invasion gives uh Benedict Arnold the promotion he's
aiming for too. He becomes a brigadier general.
Speaker 2 (38:07):
Interesting, I mean, but you know it also benefited benefited burr.
By the way, I just googled, is eggs Benedict named
after Benedict Arnold? It is not, but the second most
popular googles was is egg Benedict named after Benedict cumberbatche
Oh wow, who is like, you know, an actor.
Speaker 1 (38:26):
Reading this nourll of food history. I remember reading this,
but I can't. I can't remember how it got the
name was it?
Speaker 2 (38:34):
Was it named for place, it was a person. It
does appear that it was. Let's see, uh, miss Legrand
Benedict grew bored of the menu at the particular place
and complained about its lack of variety and requested something
new to be made. Chef Ranhoffer spontaneously created the now
famous Eggs Benedict dish and named it after her. And
(38:55):
this would have been in uh, let's see the Del
mom Ah like state.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Delmonico's think, yeah, because that was the origin point for
so many amazing recipes.
Speaker 3 (39:07):
That's right. Eighteen.
Speaker 1 (39:09):
You can look at if you ever want to have fun, folks,
you can look at the old Delmonico menu. You will
be shocked by the prices and there, I say, you
might be shocked by some of the variety. They've got
some weird stuff on roast beast. Yeah. Our buddy Benny
does some other cool stuff. During the war, he gets
the support of George Washington. He distinguishes himself in multiple campaigns,
(39:33):
but it's the military. People are also gunning for the
same promotion you want. Arnold has enemies within the military,
and he's mad. He's spitting mad. In seventeen seventy seven,
a group of lower ranking dudes get promoted ahead of him.
They got a leap frog. He's thinking, I'm supposed to
(39:54):
be next in line. He marries a second time. He's
living it up in Philly, cream cheese every day, everything, bagel.
He racks up a lot of debt, and he's got
these money problems, and he's got this personal resentment that
he was not promoted, and he's like, I did my
(40:14):
level best, you know, why are these guys getting favors
over me?
Speaker 3 (40:18):
And that's when he turns to the dark time.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
That's when he turns to the Sith Lord stuff. That
probably was the deciding factor, the money problems and the resentment,
and no one finds out for a second. Seventeen eighty,
Arnold takes over West Point, and this is before it's
the home of the US Military Academy.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
It's just it's a base. Yeah, yeah for it exactly.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
He contacts Sir Henry Clinton, the head of the British Forces,
and just says Hey, I got an idea. How about
I just give you the fort and my men?
Speaker 1 (40:55):
And the guy goes what.
Speaker 3 (40:58):
Presumably for.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
What's the quid pro quote here, Ben, it's not really
stated clearly.
Speaker 1 (41:05):
Yeah. He meets with a British major, John Andre on
September twenty one of that same year, seventeen eighty, and
they crack a deal and he says, you, dirty American,
I will give you a large sum of money. Okay,
got it, and I would also promote you in the
British Army. So you could have that promotion.
Speaker 2 (41:26):
He'll never be accepted. What is he going to do
a fake British accent? They'll see right through.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
It, they might. But well, actually they probably sounded very
similar to these guys.
Speaker 3 (41:35):
Oh that's a good point at that time. Yeah, you're earlier.
That's a really good point.
Speaker 1 (41:38):
But he would definitely be marked as a trader. The
thing about rats is that would no one trust them. Yeah,
so he was still going to get a lot of money,
solve his money problems, get promoted to the British Army ostensibly. However,
he gets found out and his buddy, the point of
contact who can make this treason possible and worth it,
(42:00):
Andrey gets captured, Andre is murdered. Ben addict Arnold flees
to the enemy side. Help me, help me, help me.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
Remember we had a thing, we had a deal. We're buddies.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
Wait for me. And then they give him some British
troops and he commands them in Virginia in Connecticut. That's
got to be a trip. If you're on the American
side of it, you're like, hang on a second, Yeah,
I know that asshole. Yeah, that's the moment they have.
And eventually he survives.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
He does move to England, but he never gets all
of the accolades and you know, wealth and riches that
were promised him by the British. Once again, the story
of a former great American hero and patriot who died
like maybe not a pauper, but you know, definitely not
with reverence and respect and admiration, mainly in you know,
(42:55):
obscurity on June fourteenth, eighteen oh one.
Speaker 1 (43:00):
And lest we had done a down. Note. The Delmonico
Restaurant in New York is also responsible for baked Alaska
and Lobster Newburgh. I don't know, lobster Newburg got a
very distinct smell. I've cooked at home. It's it's kind
of a pain because you have to use brandy in
the recipe.
Speaker 2 (43:18):
I like brandy and like a lobster bisk you know again,
like a sherry or sherry.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Yeah, I guess no, I mean you can tell. I
think we don't. I don't. I don't think either of
us really cook a ton with alcohol outside of like
some wine and like a beef shoe or something.
Speaker 3 (43:36):
Or like a little white wine and like a pasta
of some kind of Oh that's what.
Speaker 1 (43:39):
Yeah, yeah, I like. I like seafood pasta kind of thing.
Speaker 2 (43:41):
Definitely, yes, exactly Like I like doing shrimp and rice too,
with dice roasted red peppers, and then you put a
little I actually like to cook the rice with half
wine and half chicken broth instead of water.
Speaker 1 (43:53):
I use chicken broth just but I've never put wine in.
Speaker 2 (43:56):
It's really nice. It's also what you would do for
like a pay. I guess that's what we got. We've
got a story of one of America's biggest traders and
a bunch of other little side players and Hamilton and
all of the things.
Speaker 1 (44:10):
And what a wild ride.
Speaker 3 (44:12):
We know.
Speaker 1 (44:13):
We made this a two part episode, folks. That's because
there's so much stuff. We wanted to preemptive. Yeah, preemptive
on purpose. And we want to thank the following people
so much for making the show possible. First off, you
ridiculous historians, thanks for tuning in. Second well, first a,
our super producer and research associate for this series, mister
(44:35):
Max Williams. Who else? Who else?
Speaker 3 (44:37):
Oh? You know, all the heads.
Speaker 2 (44:39):
Jonathan Strickland, the quizter, our personal Aaron Burr, Benedict Arnold
and the other guy what was his name, the most
despicable one, James Wilkinson.
Speaker 3 (44:48):
That's it, Wilkinson. You.
Speaker 1 (44:51):
I also want to be fair and say like it was.
It was a tremendous pleasure to hang out with Jonathan
a little bit in Vegas.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
Absolutely, he almost got assassinated by seafood tower. He was
sitting next to him. Yes, this is a true story.
He has a shellfish justly allergic to shellfish. Christopher Oscio
is here in spirit, Heves, Jeff Coke, Alex Williams, who
composed our theme.
Speaker 3 (45:15):
Alex.
Speaker 2 (45:15):
I don't know your last name, but who's visiting us
in the studio Alex circa nineteen hundred.
Speaker 3 (45:21):
There we go. I love it.
Speaker 1 (45:23):
Yeah, you go with that one, Alex. You want another
one that's pretty good.
Speaker 2 (45:27):
That's pretty good Alex circa nineteen, that has a pretty
good history nickname.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Well, we won't expose real birthday. Okay, that's unfair, but
but yes and no. Of course, of course, of course,
thanks to you man.
Speaker 3 (45:38):
He was well Ben, I'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
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