July 17, 2025 • 45 mins
The Dark Knight. The Caped Crusader. The terror of all criminals and ne'er-do-wells in Gotham... that's right, folks: today's episode is all about Batman. As Ben and Noel discover in today's episode, this superhero's origin story is a surprising tale of beef, ego, conflict and controversy: for decades, two men claimed to have created Batman... and one of them may have been (mostly) lying.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. We're not wearing hockey pads. Big
shout out to our guest producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Is that your scary voice, Ben?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh, that's actually my regular voice. I was heading from
a helium Ballue.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I love the time. That is a real commitment to
the bit. I respect and appreciate that you are Ben
in fact, and I am Nolan.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
This is history right, Yes, yes, that's us. From earlier
we had such a fantastic exploration of the triumvirate history
of the phrase bloody Mary and I think we were
both surprised by the unexpected turns that exploration took. And
now we're talking about something another story with a lot
(01:18):
of hidden history behind it. One of the most popular
comic characters of all time, everybody's favorite billionaire Bruce Wayne aka.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Batman, coming to us from our research associated extraordinaire Andrea.
I don't think we've bestowed a nickname. You may people
Workshop Dowent. The last one we did from Andrea was
about the origins of the word Poluka, and that had
some awesome comics lore and history associated with it, and
today is no different because it is introducing us to
a character that many folks who are not deep comics
(01:51):
nerds might not be familiar with. A guy named Milton
Bill Finger. Yeah, Fingers, interesting surf, It really is. You know,
if you're picking a persona or a fake name, Finger
is Actually it's a brilliant choice, because it's so weird
(02:15):
that you would think no one chose that on purpose, right, yeah,
it would seem to be the case. Built him, built
in Mill Finger. I'm leaving it. He passed away when
he passed away, rather, he passed away and up to
what you would consider obscurity, long believed that his body
was buried in a potter's field, which is like a
(02:36):
pauper's grave. You might refer to that as But it
wasn't until later that history would remember Bill and give
him his due as being truly one of the hidden
hands in the creation of Batman the Dark Knight.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, yeah, and we'll set a we'll set a bittersweet
cinematic tone here. Later history would learn that Bill Finger's son,
Fred Finger, had right, right, I remember that one well,
(03:14):
Fred claimed his father's body. It wasn't placed in a
potter's field. Instead, for his dad's wishes, Fred cremated his
father's cadaver and then brought his ashes to Manzanita Beach
in Oregon, and he spread those ashes in the shape
of a bat on the shore line. That's some dark poetry.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
It is, indeed. Uh and yeah. Andrea points out that
when she first read that little detail, the song Kissed
from a Rose by Seal flashed through her mind and
she said she had a single tear. There used to
be a gray tower alone on the sea. That's a
banger of a song. By the way, it's contrary to
popular believe, not written for the movie. It was on
Seal's album, the self titled Seal Album. That's just how
(04:00):
he is man. Yeah. Have you seen the Sprite commercial
where he is Seal as a Seal? I loved it.
I did too, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And we all know that Batman is a fantastically fascinating character.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And fantastically money generating character.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Oh yeah, and even in the world of fiction, he
is phenomenally problematic.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Because he how flawed he is, which is what makes
him interesting, and how human he is, which is also
I think what has always set him apart from other
superheroes and the associated tropes is that he's like a
goffed up, tortured dude taking perma revenge on the world
in the form of batties for the death of his parents. Yeah,
(04:50):
Edie's a billionaire. It's also true broody billionaire gothpeing yep, right,
and he.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Could fix We'll get into it, but basically, with his
immense money from large industries, he could fix systemic problems
with Gotham City.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
But no, but no hunch, right, he's someone who SIPs.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Now, just find a mashpa dude anyway. Finger Bill Finger
is a creator of Batman. We all know and love
Batman from Gotham City. He's also the Bill is also
the creator of Gotham City, by the way, as well
as Catwoman and The Joker. He died like you noted
no inobscurity in nineteen seventy four, and he was unlike
(05:34):
his creation Bruce Wayne, he was not well to do.
He was penniless at this point. He had a creative partner.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Okay, this is not super super far off from the
Peluka story and that there were two kind of rival
comics people, comics writers, or in one of them got
all the credit and couldn't draw a frame to save
his life. If I'm totally spacing on their names, but
do check out the pollup episode that Andrea did as well,
(06:02):
really really really interesting stuff. Bob Kaine is the name
that you may be much more familiar with. That's the
creative partner in question here. He had developed a red
jump suit clad, domino mask wearing character that he dubbed
the Batman, which has kinda come back if I'm not
mistaken the Robert Pattinson movies. They're using the Batman again.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And this is good, so legalistic, so quickly. Oh yeah,
Caine's creation is the bat dash Man. Yes, of course
that's also true.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
That lawyer just got very excited. Yeah, with lawyers, they
love their dashes. Definitely living a bit of a Bruce
Wayne asque existence, full of opulence, wealth, international acclaim. When
Caine passed away in nineteen ninety eight, he had this
epitaph carved on his tombstone. Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne Batman,
they are one and the same. I like a rhyme.
(06:57):
It's not bad. I like a rhyming epiitaph.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
If it's true, and Andrea has pulls all these great sources.
Andrea has shared with us a depiction of Batman without
a dash and bat dash Man and tells us that
how these two luminaries came to disagree and make such
similar characters is indeed a bit of history that gets ridiculous.
(07:25):
So let's let's get to it, right. It's nineteen thirty eight. Oh,
this will also do I just remember this will remind
a lot of folks about our Captain Marvel episode.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Also true and a banger from research associate Jeff the
Jeffman Bartley, Jeff, I like that? Or Factor G as
Oh yeah, I forgot about Factor G. So it's nineteen
thirty eight. Like you said, Bob Kaine's already established in
the world of comics. He is offering an aspiring writer
again very similar to the Peluka story. Yeah, a shot
(07:55):
to be. This guy's a part time shoe salesman, that is.
But yeah, a part time shoe that it seems like
getting insults injury. No shade on anyone that's shoes for him.
I know.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
It probably means he works twenty five hours a week
or something. Like that and probably has multiple jobs. But
I'd love it if part time shoe salesman means he
only sells right shoes, left ship if you've got a
door across the street.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
For the other one. But yeah, Caine gives this a
fellow a way out of the shoe grind, gives him
a job ghost writing strips, meaning of course that he's
not being credited, which is an interesting, uh sort of
what's the word foreshadowing here with adventure comics. Finger, being
a bit self taught, was very smart, well read, and
(08:40):
had the chops to get it done. He made an
impression on Cain from the get go.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, and so I love that you're pointing out the
similarities with the Polukaville rivalry here. So this guy Finger
has made a great impression on Daddy Caine at a
party where they met.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Daddy Kane rapper as a rapper, right, Yes, it is yes, Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
The success of Superman really informs the comic industry.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Oh seeding friendly. Everyone's looking for it to match that freak.
You know, let's we got to get something that's going
to rival Superman because it is an absolute feeding frenzy
for new superhero type. I don't think they're even calling
them that yet. At this point, it's.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Number one with a bullet, you know, the son of Krypton.
And add comics number one with a bull Yes, very
much so. And editors throughout the industry are already being
very j Jonah Jamison meme about this, Yeah, chopping their cigars.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
They're power of the desk.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Get me my own Superman kids, exactly so. So Caine responds,
and this leads him to create the bat dash Man.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And he took his inspiration from a film from the
nineteen thirties called The Bat's Whispers, which I haven't seen.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Not to be confused with The Bat Whisperer, which is
different film entirely and a very heartwarming. So Cain had
this idea for the character, but he knew it needed
a little bit more fleshing out. And that's where Finger
came in. He was he was the flesh man. He
was the guy that added a little meat to the bones,
and Cain was more the idea man. It would seem
right hearing it directly from Finger, Cain had an idea
(10:18):
for a character called Batman. He does say at this
point in quotes here Batman with no spaces or dashes,
and he'd like me to see the drawings. I went
over to Caine's and he had drawn a character which
very much looked like Superman, with kind of reddish tights
that were later squeezed out into a bucket to make
pink lemonade. Sorry, I'm really harping on that. I don't know.
(10:39):
It's haunting me.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Oh, we need to It's it's high time, I believe,
he says, with boots and the fur, no gloves, no gauntlets,
with a small domino mask, swinging on a rope.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
He had two stiff wings. And in the image that
Andrea attached here, it is a comics panel of two
fellows looking at a like a like a conspiracy type board,
you know, like the red thread thing with Charlie Day
or whatever. And on one side we've got Batman as
we know it. The other side we've got the bat
dash Man with the red tights and the kind of
(11:17):
bat wing resembling rigid wings that he's describing.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, so this is still yeah, like a lighter by
the ways.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And under it was a big sign Batman. And that's
interesting though, because yeah, there is a little discrepancy in
these stories about the providence of the name, because we
have heard from other sources that this version that Caine
created was the bat dash Man, but then coming from
Finger himself, he's calling it Batman.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, and this is this is interesting. So Finger looks
at this, and it's common for any of us in
creative circles when your friends ask you for advice, you
always have to check and say, do you what do
you want? Do you want me to tell you how
I feel about it? Or do you want specific notes?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Do you want suggestions or do you want me to
or do you just want to show it to someone?
Finger probably puts his finger to his chin. It looks
at this because the.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Singer's your move, yes a finger finger, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Okay, okay, And then he says, I've got a couple
of notes. And just like a studio exec or no
offense to the three of us, an executive producer, his
couple of notes comment means he wants to change almost everything.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
He starts with a costume, and.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
He says, let's give him a cowl instead of this,
instead of this domino mask. Let's make this suit darker.
Because when you think of bats, you think of nighttime
and He looks at the creation by Lee Fulk the Phantom,
and so he says, Okay, we're going to take Cane's
the Batman and we're going to morph it into the
(12:57):
more modern Batman we know today. Finger also generates the
backstory because the way history tells it, it seems like
Cain was inspired to do something like but not quite Superman,
and past the idea of an association with bats. He
hadn't really thought through the lore. That's where the writer
(13:18):
Finger comes in. He says, Okay, what does this guy
do when he's not dressed like this? Well, let's make
him interesting. His name is Bruce Wayne, and I'm taking
that from Robert to Bruce, a Scottish king of Old Bruce.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Apparently I did not know this bit of history, even
as a comic nerd. Apparently Finger chose the last name
Wayne because it suggested gentry and colonialism.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Mmm. Yeah, no, I didn't know that either. And another
thing that I didn't know this word cowl. I've only
really ever heard it associated with the bat, helmet or
whatever you want to call it. And I want to
ask you and put this to you. Are all cowls? Hoods?
Are some hoods, cowls. Is there a crossover between hood
(14:07):
and cowl? What does a cowl make? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, I think there's a crossover. I think technically it's
an overall garment and it comes from monastic practices.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
For sure, definitely monkish.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Like a robe with a hood is technically a cowl,
but often, and perhaps incorrectly, I hear it used to
mean just.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
The head piece. That's what I'm thinking, and that to
me is part is the distinction. And you can you
definitely see it's almost like a detachable hood that has
drapes that go over the shoulders as well, which is
totally what the Batman helmet hat cowl is. It's got
the hood part and then it goes down over the
shoulders and kind of down onto the chest a little
bit depending on the version.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Right, Yeah, so maybe that's it. I think we're onto something.
It's technically a cowl because it goes over the clavicle.
Yeah right, shake stends past the Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Let's go, let's go with it. Yeah, sorry, I had
to take that little etymological diversion there.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
So Finger says. I tried Bruce Adams, I tried Bruce Hancock.
Then I thought of Mad Anthony Wayne. Oooh, Mad Anthony
what's his deal?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I love how he's saying that it's such a casual
of course, Mad Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Tone. Yeah, everybody knows about Mad Anthony. I'm sure there are.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
A lot of history buffs who are scandalized right now.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
So, uh, Noel and Chainsaw.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And I learned that Mad Anthony Wayne is a street
name for an American soldier and founding father named Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Whoa who looks exactly like George Washington? Yes, yeah, I mean,
I guess a lot of cats probably looked like that
back in those days. But it is uncanny, like the
the way he wears his hat, his posture, his powdered wig.
But again, probably not the most uncommon garb. But it's
really weird now I'm looking at all these portraits a
(16:11):
general outfit. Yeah, President, Wait a second, sorry, I went
down a quick off, Mike rabbit Hole. I'm like, was
Matt Anthony Wayne secretly the alter ego of George Washington? Right,
it'll be appropriate for this story, But no, he was
his own person. He was the fifth senior Officer of
(16:33):
the United States Army, hence the military garb and he
did serve under President George Washington. You know, he set
the tone for fashion choices. But did you.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Ever see them in the same room at the same time.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Did Never? Did? We definitely didn't because we weren't there.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
But okay, so our buddy Finger clearly a well read guy,
knows a lot about history. He's taking inspiration for the
name Bruce Wayne from history, and he says, look, I'm
combining this freedom fighter, Robert the Bruce, with this crazy
revolutionary war hero, and that's perfect for Batman. This is
(17:12):
a wealthy taunt a playboy by day, but at night
he's super serious. He's superhumanly serious. He's a vigilante battles crime.
And he also doesn't have People will tell you he
doesn't have superpowers. I've winged about this on stuff they
don't want you to know at length. Being a billionaire
(17:34):
is a superpower.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
So he was born on third Yeah, for sure. So
it is cool. Though it is, I still would argue
that it is an interesting foible. Let's just say that
the guy is a bit of a human man with
with you know, flaws, and he can't just vaporize you
with a look like Superman can do. So it did
(17:59):
make him a little bit more of an everyman relatively speaking,
despite the billionaire of it all. Finger conceived of Wayne
being like the detective, you know, with powers of deduction
and all of that, like a Sherlock Holmes type figure,
and perkine in a documentary many decades later. Finger was
a contributing force on Batman right from the beginning. This
(18:23):
is a lot of revisionist history from Cain that we're
going to get into. When you kind of had a
bit of a change of heart or a pang of conscience.
I made Batman a superhero vigilante when I first created him.
Bill turned him into a scientific detective. I mean, obviously
DC Comics stands for detective comics, So just putting that
out there.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
It's also cool to see that this bears echoes of
other earlier comic strip heroes who were things like superpowered
doctors or super scientists. So there is a lineage there
that's fascinating. Maybe we can recommend some books to learn
more about this. Check out the STORENKO History of Comics.
(19:05):
This is where Finger talks at length about some of
his creations, including Gotham City. Okay, I'll say this DC
has a mixed bag hit or miss record with naming
fictional cities. I think Metropolis and Gotham are probably the best.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, the but what are some bad examples? I don't
think I'm deep enough to know.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Things like Central City, Key City.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, okay, got it. Not Yeah, Gotham is awesome because
it is very much New York, but it's not called
New York. It's New York but not New York. It's
almost this like I mean, let's just say a gothed
up version of New York and my favorite depiction of it.
I'm not deep into the comics, but I love the
Tim Burton Batman version of Gotham City. I think, oh,
(19:52):
I think your rules.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, I'd like I'd like more Danny DeVito as the Penguin.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
The New Anguin series was really good.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I was very good. And I love the Robert Pattinson
the Batman quite a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Oh yeah, did you see that deleted scene with the Joker?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
So yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's great. Good.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Well okay, Well we want you to know how excellent
the end result was and how close Gotham City came
to being called Civic City or coast city or capital city.
So the guy Finger literally goes to a phone book
for New York City and flips through the pages. He
(20:34):
sees a listing for Gotham Jewelers, and he says, that's it,
Gotham City. We can't straight up call it New York,
even though it is New York Noir. We can't call
it New York because we wanted anybody in any city
to identify with this. So people do refer to New
York as Gotham sometimes. Is that a direct reference to Batman?
(20:55):
Because this Gotham Jewelers that wasn't already a term used
to New York. Gotham in this respect, I imagined was
maybe a family name, or are some other kind of descriptive.
I think the use of Gotham to describe New York
came later and is maybe a direct reference to its.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Use in Batman.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
You know, I think the vast majority of us associate
Gotham with New York because of Batman and the Batman universe.
But if you go to Untapped Cities dot Com and
look at Untapped New York, we see that the emergence
of the nickname Gotham for New York dates back to
a November eleventh, eighteen oh seven issue of a I
(21:36):
guess it just for laughs kind of satirical mad magazine
thing called Love.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah. Yeah, from our boy Washington Irving, who I believe
wrote The Headless Horseman, came up with all of that
yidy hollow all that stuff. Very cool. I saw that too,
and that's really glad we looked at that at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And the narrator of Irving's history of New York is
d Drik Knickerbocker.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, it's not, is that true? Yes, amazing full circle,
that is where the magic happens. Man, I love it.
So Gotham City is born, and that was because of
a direct input from our boy Finger. He's also quite
adept at coming up with villain ideas and helping to
shape maybe some of Cain's broader ideas. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
The Finger writes the first issue of the Batman comic
book series, in which we are introduced to the Joker
and the Catwoman, and then Finger goes on to create
the concept of the bat Cave and the Batmobile.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And then if you have you seen and in the
first issue of Sandman, which was much more trying to
tie it in with the DC universe. There's a brief
Batman moment where it shows the bat Cave with these
oversized pennies and like there's a t Rex or something,
and I guess that's a reference to this old timey
version of the Batcave. And I'm only just now putting
(23:01):
that together because I was very confused when I first
saw that, because I was not familiar with the early
Batman comics and that lore.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, yeah, and it's sort of a I think it's
a nod to trophies he's collected from. Weird supervillains. DC
also went crazy on super villains that maybe don't necessarily
have an extraordinary ability, but they have gadgets or they're
just really hung up on something, like a mad Hatter
(23:29):
or calendar Man.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Calendar Man. Calendar Man that sounds like the dullest supervillain ever.
He is like really in the leap year, Like what's
his beef? He is?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
He commits crimes that are like holiday themed. Okay, are
making this up? I swear, dude, this and this is thing.
There was a reboot of calendar Man that turned him
into a serial killer, which was darker, made a lot
more sense.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Apparently, the new James Gunn bat Superman. That's being really
divisive already. Some of the early reviews some people were
not a fan. But it does apparently lean more into
some of these absurd kind of early kind of schlocky
comicsy stuff. It's got like Mister Terrific and a lot
of these like sort of lesser you know, characters that
(24:20):
maybe you're not familiar with. I want you to see it.
There's a dog, apparently a super dog. I did just
want to say, Ben, I thought I heard a really
interesting quote from the singer whose her name is Aurora,
and she's a very quirky, little Icelandic lady and very
byork asked. But in her own right, she's got, she's talented.
She had this to say, how come super villains are
(24:41):
always trying to change things and superheroes are always trying
to keep things the same? Oh that's great. I love that.
I thought that was pretty good.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think Bill Finger would like that.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think he would do.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So Bill goes on to create Scarecrow, the Penguin Commissioner Gordon,
and of course Batman's sidekick Robin the Boy won he
needed a bit of a Watson figure, didn't he Yeah, yeah,
I think you're right. And this is where we start
to see these creators come to not blows, but it
(25:18):
come to a divergence point our buddy Caine. He says, look, Robin,
his origin should parallel the origin of Batman, and then
Finger says, I hear you, but let's make his parents
circus performers. They can still get murdered. I know that's
important for you, but they're murdered during a trapeze act. Okay, cool,
(25:41):
a bit of a sart distill at mishap.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
It's true. And if there is one version of that
that I will always remember, it is from a very
bad Batman movie Batman and Robin. But I do remember
the way it's depicted his parents, you know, eating in
on the trapeze.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Is that the one where they gave the Is that
the one where they put nipples on the suits?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
They put nipples on the suits, nipples on a breastplate.
It's true, all of those, Yon Debunt. I think that's
the guy that directed it. I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Well, it's it's tough to work in entertainment, so making
movies is hard. Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
No, sorry, it is Joel Schumacher. He's the one who
did the nipples on the batsuit Batman movies.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, and it's tough to work in entertainment. It's making
and making a movie is hard. H So back to
Kane and Finger. Finger says, look, Robin is the outgrowth
of a conversation I have with Bob Bob Kine uh
and he describes the excellent comparison you made earlier. He says,
Batman is a combination of Douglas Fairbanks and Sherlock Holmes.
(26:51):
Holmes has a Watson, and this is what sticks out.
Finger is not necessarily chasing the best story here, He's
chasing a practical problem. He says, look, Batman doesn't have
anyone to talk to.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Do we not have an Alfred yet? At this point,
we don't have an Alfred? Y interesting?
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Okay, you know that's a great question. I'm not sure
where we have an Alfred just yet. But we know
that Alfred is usually in weighing manor right, or in
the batcave. So when Batman's out busting heads and doing investigations,
he's always having an interior monologue. And Fingers like, we
(27:30):
got to get this guy someone to talk to, because.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It would appear that Robin came before Alfred, so he
literally had nobody. Yeah, he was all alone in his
giant mansion.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And also Robin is great marketing for the demographic right
of circus performers. Speaking of circuses, let's go to the
clown Prints of Crime, one of the most well known
(28:01):
comic book villains of all time and arguably a dark
mirror of Batman because he is brilliant. He also loves gadgets,
and he also has no superhuman powers.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, and I'm really into the imagery. I haven't read
a ton of them. I've read a few of the stories.
But there is a alternate universe version of the Joker
that I believe is called the One Who Laughs or
something along those lines. Maybe that's the name of the series.
But he's got like he's all sm m'ed out and
has like spikes on around his eyes. He looks like
(28:36):
a freakin hell Raiser character.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, that's the dark version of Bruce Wayne who got
poisoned by Jokers. Joker gas his evil laughing gas, and
it drove that Bruce Wayne crazy.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Right, And it's the Batman who Laughs, is what it's
called so obviously a reference to this whole situation where
inspiration was taken from a film version of Alexandra Duma
and Victor Hugo. It was like believe a silent film.
And Sir, I think I'm getting a little confused here
(29:14):
because there are some overlapping versions of this. The what
they're talking about is a series of English translations of
Alexander Duma and Victor Hugo, and the volume that they
had they were referring to was called The Man Who Laughs,
which is originally published under the title By the Order
of the King.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, and by this point there have been some adaptations
of the show. We know Fingers looking at the book,
but he's also probably aware of him and Kane both
of the film adaptation, which I think we're both more
familiar with, the nineteen twenty eight The Man Who.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Laughs and he looks like the joker, I mean the
actor portraying him here. It's a German expressionist film and
looks at it. I mean, it's very Cabinet of Doctor
Kaligari type vibes by Carl Lemley and the actor portraying
this character is named Conrad Vitz and he has this
(30:11):
rictus grin, and even the same hairline and kind of
puffy hairdoo that the joker ultimately had, not green though,
or wearing makeup joker.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Makeup right, No, he's just he's had an operation that
fixes that rictus smile. Creepy, it's super creepy. I'm into it. Also,
Bill Finger is only looking at these comparisons or inspirations because,
according to him, he talked about the idea of a
(30:43):
clown prince of crime with Bob Kine. Bob made a
sketch that did not look like a joker. It looked
more like a clown, and so he and Bob worked together.
He gave Bob this picture the man who laughs, and
then Bob takes as a as an inspiration or starting
point of reference is the word we'd use in art,
(31:06):
and he starts working over the face. He says, okay,
he'll be a little bit clown like so, white face,
red lips, green hair, but not all the way clown.
You know, he has a regular.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Nose exactly, no, exactly, not the Hong Kong knows of
classic circus clowns. Finger has this kind of scrap book idea,
you know, little black book situation full of random facts,
newspaper clippings, and notes that he could use in future
Batman stories. He would ride the bus every day to
(31:38):
get where he was gone and take in the New
York city scapes, which further fueled the inspiration for Gotham.
The Wayne's family's tragic demise and the clashes between Batman
and the underbelly of Gotham were absolutely a product of
this solitary existence that that Finger led.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Exactly, and this state of isolation is Fingers inspiration.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
In some ways.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
This gives Cain the opportunity to fully put himself in
the limelight. So you know, there are some creative duos
where one maybe Empire of the Sun is a good comparison.
Remember that band from Perth. Two guys, Yeah, dancing kind
of stuff. Yeah, but one guy is very much in
(32:30):
the forefront, right, and he's the he's the big theatrical
draw and they're friends, they're great musicians. They just have
a different, different approach to the public. And that's what
we see with Cain and Finger. Finger is kind of
hiding away and Cain is walking into the limelight and
talking about Batman, right, And it seems that over time
(32:53):
Cain starts to purposely push Finger further into the background, which.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Is kind of the borderline beginning to push him out.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, it's also ungrateful because Batman wouldn't exist without Finger, right.
He figured out a lot of things that were key
to Batman's success. But Kane was effective with his fans.
He would show up in an expensive suit or get this, folks,
a cowl.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
And he uh.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
He wrote a self aggrandizing autobiography that kind of reminds
me of the way Edgar Allan Poe would write very
high faluting explanations of his poems like never More and
so on.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
It's worth a read if you would know for sure,
I'll check it out.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Apparently, though, he does cross over to the dark side
because Cain's king becomes accused of passing off other people's
oil paintings of Batman as his own birth.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
This is again another parallel from the Peluca story. That
guy was taking a lot of credit where credit was
most certainly not due. But you know, his actions ultimately
led to him being in the catbird seat. As far
as you know, the financial successes of Batman as a
piece of intellectual property that would prove to be incredibly valuable.
(34:20):
Andrea puts it that Kane villainously executed deals and negotiations
with the explicit purpose of keeping Finger out of said deals.
Per comic book historian Arlen Schumer. Unfortunately, the deal happened
because Bob Kane had the lawyer father, and Bill Finger
was shy. Bob Kane went in and his father made
(34:43):
sure that his name was on it. That's how Bill
Finger ended up getting shunted away from his co creation. Terrible.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
You hate to see it, you know, because so much
of creativity is collaboration. Dassie Comics said, Okay, we'd love this.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
We need our own super.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, we need some more of this, and so they say,
we're going to publish the Batman comics for you, and
Cain make sure that he is the only one who
gets to showcase Batman to DC. He's the guy who
gets to talk with the big execs about this character,
and under the advice of again his father, who is
(35:22):
an attorney, he negotiates sole credit as the creator of
Batman and a percentage of everything DC Comics may license
the character on in the future. This is a gold mine.
Batman works out. Cain amasses ten million dollars throughout his life,
(35:43):
and in the same time, in doing so, he has
sacrificed the guy who made him successful. His former pal
Bill Finger is relegated to obscurity. Cain draws the comics.
He also credits himself as the writer, and Finger is
nothing more than a ghostwriter. Nobody really knew about this,
(36:04):
you know, when they're reading comics at the time, they're
just thinking, this Bill Kane guy. He's a real tour
right in the comic world. And it's not till nineteen
sixty five that Bill Finger gets named as co creator
in something I didn't know existed, a fanzine dedicated to Batman.
So not part of DC, just a guy named Jerry
(36:27):
Bales who loves Batman so much that he makes a
magazine about how he loves Batman. It's a little meta.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It is Matta And just a quick mention, I'm a
big fan of the podcast of the Ringer Network, like
you know, The Big Picture and the Watch And if
you want to get into some Batman deep dives, there's
a podcast called The House of r that has an
episode called literally the Batman Deep Dive, where Joanna Robinson,
(36:54):
who's one of my favorite hosts on the network and
her co host Mal dig deep into the history of
DC comics and Gotham's underbelly.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
This is so weird because now you mentioned it, you
inspired me just to check on the fly here on air,
I found a list of multiple Batman podcasts twenty best
Batman podcast. Wow, Holy RSS feed. I didn't know there
were so many out there. Well, that's cool, man, Yeah,
(37:26):
check it out. Let us know what you think. We
know that by the mid nineteen sixties, as more audience
members are learning about the existence of Bill Finger, we
see that he makes a rare appearance in New York City.
Actually people know about him because this notoriously shy guy
(37:48):
does actually show up in public, and that's what inspires
the digging into the story. He's at the New York
City Comic Con and afterwards there's an article in this
Batman fancy called if the Truth Be Known or a
Finger in every plot, and it talks about how we
were misled, how Cain was not the one man army
(38:11):
of Batman, but did indeed have a lot of help
from a guy you've never heard of named Bill Finger.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
And Cain responded with his own angry letter condemning Fingers
claim to Batman, stating Bill Finger has given out the
impression that he and not myself created the Batman, as
well as Robin and all the other leading villains and characters.
This statement is fraudulent and entirely untrue. This is myth.
(38:37):
The truth is that Bill Finger is taking credit for
much more than he deserves, and I refute much of
his statements here in print.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, he says, this is so Poluka. The only proof
I need to back my statement is that if Bill
co authored and conceive the idea, either with me or
before me, then he would most certainly have a byeline
on the strip along with my name. It's been twenty
five years now, and truthfully, times sometimes blurs the memory,
(39:08):
and it's difficult to separate at times, So that I
cannot blame Bill too much. If at times his memory clouds,
I'll say it, I don't you know what I know
A letter writer thirteen or PG. Thirteen But what a dick.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
It is a move, for sure, But I just I
do stand by. I do love old school letter feuds.
Oh I love that you don't write like this anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
If your insolence is borish and shall not stand and
it shall not. Yes, Okay, there is a big problem
here because that one article shouting out Finger is pretty
much the only voice in the ocean. Yeah, misinformation, and
Finger passes away in obscurity, very much isolated. In nineteen
(39:58):
seventy four, as we mentioned, his heart gives out, Cain
lives long enough to see the box office film adaptations
of Batman.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And it's banging depiction of Gotham City, which, as we know,
you know, very much a product of the imagination of
Finger and his solitary you know, journeys throughout New York
City on the bus.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Oh gosh, what a beautiful image, you know. And I
think we're both fans of being strangers in a strange land.
I just love being out in an unfamiliar place and
soaking it in anyway, for one reason or another, perhaps
he's mellowing with age. Perhaps he sees the massive cinematic
(40:47):
success of Batman. We don't know why, but Cain develops
a guilty conscious of sorts, and he later says, Bill,
Finger and I created the Joker. Bill was the writer.
Jerry Robinson came to me with a playing card of
the Joker. That's the way I sum it up, and
then he shouts out the man who laughs just like
we did. And he's saying this because he wants people
(41:10):
to realize that he and Bill created the Joker, not
this guy Jerry Robinson.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So only now does he give credit where credit to
dude to like get rid of the secret third thing
right exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
And he he says that if he could do this
all over again, he would give Bill Finger his due
credit on Batman. And he says, now that my longtime
friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill
never received the fame and recognition he deserved. He was
an unsung hero. I often tell my wife, if I
(41:45):
could go back fifteen years before he died, I would
like to say, I'll put your name on it now.
You deserve it.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I'm big of you. Yeah, I will.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Not million dollars, Yeah, not a pauper's great, but certainly
I mean, come on, yeah, not terrible.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
But you know, DC did eventually follow suit. They refused
for a long time to credit Finger, but in twenty twelve,
after the release of a biographical graphic novel Bill the
Boy Wonder about Fingers life by a French author Mark
Tyler and Nobleman. Also a Hulu documentary that was released
based on Nobleman's book. DC finally gave in and decided
(42:27):
to give credit to Finger as co creator to Batman.
After seventy six years, Fingers name does finally appear on
the cover of every Batman comics issue in future TV
and film adaptations that would be released from that point on.
So a bit of a happy ending there, if not
in dude's lifetime.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, which happens so often in the creative arts. You know,
we have a joke in the world of writers, how
do you become a successful writer?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Diem h. Yeah. Unfortunately it is the same with a
lot times with painters, and you know, many brilliant people
who have not who are not appreciated in their lifetime.
But you know, so it goes. In twenty seventeen, Finger
is honored with a street being named after him in
New York City at easton one hundred and ninety second
Street Way uptown between Grand Concourse and Valentine Avenue was
(43:20):
renamed Bill Finger Way.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Which here's what I like about this, that is such
an interesting name for the Bronx. Is the Bronx that
you will you would see that street name and then
if you look it up you will learn the hidden
history of Batman.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
That's kind of cool. I'm down with that. No, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
I like it when they named streets after creative people,
Like there's the Beastie Boys. I want to say, got
a street in New York named after them recently, So
there you go. Fingers name, first reported by the South
Bronx blog Welcome to the Bronx, appears blocks from Poe Park,
where Canaan Finger would sometimes hang out to talk about
(44:01):
Dark Knight business and mythos.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Oh and this gives us some breaking news. This happened
just yesterday week recording on Thursday, July tenth. But Jack Kirby,
the legendary creator for Marvel, he just had two streets
named after him.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Oh, like this week.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Maybe that's because the Fantastic four film is coming out soon.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
I think that must be true. Man, there is an
origin story Fantastic form would be coming out that looks
like a lot of fun. Agreed, And we hope you've.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Had a lot of fun traveling down this road with
us through the hidden history of Gotham and Batman and
the Man.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Who laughs big.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Thanks to our super producer Max Williams, who will be
returning tat It Up Big. Thanks to our guest superproducer
Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan, who Else, who Else?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Oh Boy, Chris Frasciotas Eve, Jeff cots Here in Spirit,
Jonathan Strick on the Quistar, aj Mohammas, Jacob's The Puzzler.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And of course our dear rude Dudes of Ridiculous Crime.
If you dig us, you'll dig them. Join us for
our classic coming out this weekend, as well as our
further adventures in the weeks and days to come.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. We're not wearing hockey pads. Big
shout out to our guest producer, Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Is that your scary voice, Ben?
Speaker 1 (00:42):
Oh, that's actually my regular voice. I was heading from
a helium Ballue.
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I love the time. That is a real commitment to
the bit. I respect and appreciate that you are Ben
in fact, and I am Nolan.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
This is history right, Yes, yes, that's us. From earlier
we had such a fantastic exploration of the triumvirate history
of the phrase bloody Mary and I think we were
both surprised by the unexpected turns that exploration took. And
now we're talking about something another story with a lot
(01:18):
of hidden history behind it. One of the most popular
comic characters of all time, everybody's favorite billionaire Bruce Wayne aka.
Speaker 2 (01:30):
Batman, coming to us from our research associated extraordinaire Andrea.
I don't think we've bestowed a nickname. You may people
Workshop Dowent. The last one we did from Andrea was
about the origins of the word Poluka, and that had
some awesome comics lore and history associated with it, and
today is no different because it is introducing us to
a character that many folks who are not deep comics
(01:51):
nerds might not be familiar with. A guy named Milton
Bill Finger. Yeah, Fingers, interesting surf, It really is. You know,
if you're picking a persona or a fake name, Finger
is Actually it's a brilliant choice, because it's so weird
(02:15):
that you would think no one chose that on purpose, right, yeah,
it would seem to be the case. Built him, built
in Mill Finger. I'm leaving it. He passed away when
he passed away, rather, he passed away and up to
what you would consider obscurity, long believed that his body
was buried in a potter's field, which is like a
(02:36):
pauper's grave. You might refer to that as But it
wasn't until later that history would remember Bill and give
him his due as being truly one of the hidden
hands in the creation of Batman the Dark Knight.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yeah, yeah, and we'll set a we'll set a bittersweet
cinematic tone here. Later history would learn that Bill Finger's son,
Fred Finger, had right, right, I remember that one well,
(03:14):
Fred claimed his father's body. It wasn't placed in a
potter's field. Instead, for his dad's wishes, Fred cremated his
father's cadaver and then brought his ashes to Manzanita Beach
in Oregon, and he spread those ashes in the shape
of a bat on the shore line. That's some dark poetry.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
It is, indeed. Uh and yeah. Andrea points out that
when she first read that little detail, the song Kissed
from a Rose by Seal flashed through her mind and
she said she had a single tear. There used to
be a gray tower alone on the sea. That's a
banger of a song. By the way, it's contrary to
popular believe, not written for the movie. It was on
Seal's album, the self titled Seal Album. That's just how
(04:00):
he is man. Yeah. Have you seen the Sprite commercial
where he is Seal as a Seal? I loved it.
I did too, actually, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:10):
And we all know that Batman is a fantastically fascinating character.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And fantastically money generating character.
Speaker 1 (04:23):
Oh yeah, and even in the world of fiction, he
is phenomenally problematic.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Because he how flawed he is, which is what makes
him interesting, and how human he is, which is also
I think what has always set him apart from other
superheroes and the associated tropes is that he's like a
goffed up, tortured dude taking perma revenge on the world
in the form of batties for the death of his parents. Yeah,
(04:50):
Edie's a billionaire. It's also true broody billionaire gothpeing yep, right,
and he.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
Could fix We'll get into it, but basically, with his
immense money from large industries, he could fix systemic problems
with Gotham City.
Speaker 2 (05:05):
But no, but no hunch, right, he's someone who SIPs.
Speaker 1 (05:10):
Now, just find a mashpa dude anyway. Finger Bill Finger
is a creator of Batman. We all know and love
Batman from Gotham City. He's also the Bill is also
the creator of Gotham City, by the way, as well
as Catwoman and The Joker. He died like you noted
no inobscurity in nineteen seventy four, and he was unlike
(05:34):
his creation Bruce Wayne, he was not well to do.
He was penniless at this point. He had a creative partner.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Okay, this is not super super far off from the
Peluka story and that there were two kind of rival
comics people, comics writers, or in one of them got
all the credit and couldn't draw a frame to save
his life. If I'm totally spacing on their names, but
do check out the pollup episode that Andrea did as well,
(06:02):
really really really interesting stuff. Bob Kaine is the name
that you may be much more familiar with. That's the
creative partner in question here. He had developed a red
jump suit clad, domino mask wearing character that he dubbed
the Batman, which has kinda come back if I'm not
mistaken the Robert Pattinson movies. They're using the Batman again.
Speaker 1 (06:25):
And this is good, so legalistic, so quickly. Oh yeah,
Caine's creation is the bat dash Man. Yes, of course
that's also true.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
That lawyer just got very excited. Yeah, with lawyers, they
love their dashes. Definitely living a bit of a Bruce
Wayne asque existence, full of opulence, wealth, international acclaim. When
Caine passed away in nineteen ninety eight, he had this
epitaph carved on his tombstone. Bob Kane, Bruce Wayne Batman,
they are one and the same. I like a rhyme.
(06:57):
It's not bad. I like a rhyming epiitaph.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
If it's true, and Andrea has pulls all these great sources.
Andrea has shared with us a depiction of Batman without
a dash and bat dash Man and tells us that
how these two luminaries came to disagree and make such
similar characters is indeed a bit of history that gets ridiculous.
(07:25):
So let's let's get to it, right. It's nineteen thirty eight. Oh,
this will also do I just remember this will remind
a lot of folks about our Captain Marvel episode.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
Also true and a banger from research associate Jeff the
Jeffman Bartley, Jeff, I like that? Or Factor G as
Oh yeah, I forgot about Factor G. So it's nineteen
thirty eight. Like you said, Bob Kaine's already established in
the world of comics. He is offering an aspiring writer
again very similar to the Peluka story. Yeah, a shot
(07:55):
to be. This guy's a part time shoe salesman, that is.
But yeah, a part time shoe that it seems like
getting insults injury. No shade on anyone that's shoes for him.
I know.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
It probably means he works twenty five hours a week
or something. Like that and probably has multiple jobs. But
I'd love it if part time shoe salesman means he
only sells right shoes, left ship if you've got a
door across the street.
Speaker 2 (08:19):
For the other one. But yeah, Caine gives this a
fellow a way out of the shoe grind, gives him
a job ghost writing strips, meaning of course that he's
not being credited, which is an interesting, uh sort of
what's the word foreshadowing here with adventure comics. Finger, being
a bit self taught, was very smart, well read, and
(08:40):
had the chops to get it done. He made an
impression on Cain from the get go.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
Yeah, and so I love that you're pointing out the
similarities with the Polukaville rivalry here. So this guy Finger
has made a great impression on Daddy Caine at a
party where they met.
Speaker 2 (08:59):
Daddy Kane rapper as a rapper, right, Yes, it is yes, Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
The success of Superman really informs the comic industry.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Oh seeding friendly. Everyone's looking for it to match that freak.
You know, let's we got to get something that's going
to rival Superman because it is an absolute feeding frenzy
for new superhero type. I don't think they're even calling
them that yet. At this point, it's.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Number one with a bullet, you know, the son of Krypton.
And add comics number one with a bull Yes, very
much so. And editors throughout the industry are already being
very j Jonah Jamison meme about this, Yeah, chopping their cigars.
Speaker 2 (09:38):
They're power of the desk.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Get me my own Superman kids, exactly so. So Caine responds,
and this leads him to create the bat dash Man.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
Uh.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
And he took his inspiration from a film from the
nineteen thirties called The Bat's Whispers, which I haven't seen.
Speaker 2 (09:56):
Not to be confused with The Bat Whisperer, which is
different film entirely and a very heartwarming. So Cain had
this idea for the character, but he knew it needed
a little bit more fleshing out. And that's where Finger
came in. He was he was the flesh man. He
was the guy that added a little meat to the bones,
and Cain was more the idea man. It would seem
right hearing it directly from Finger, Cain had an idea
(10:18):
for a character called Batman. He does say at this
point in quotes here Batman with no spaces or dashes,
and he'd like me to see the drawings. I went
over to Caine's and he had drawn a character which
very much looked like Superman, with kind of reddish tights
that were later squeezed out into a bucket to make
pink lemonade. Sorry, I'm really harping on that. I don't know.
(10:39):
It's haunting me.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Oh, we need to It's it's high time, I believe,
he says, with boots and the fur, no gloves, no gauntlets,
with a small domino mask, swinging on a rope.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
He had two stiff wings. And in the image that
Andrea attached here, it is a comics panel of two
fellows looking at a like a like a conspiracy type board,
you know, like the red thread thing with Charlie Day
or whatever. And on one side we've got Batman as
we know it. The other side we've got the bat
dash Man with the red tights and the kind of
(11:17):
bat wing resembling rigid wings that he's describing.
Speaker 1 (11:21):
Yeah, so this is still yeah, like a lighter by
the ways.
Speaker 2 (11:26):
And under it was a big sign Batman. And that's
interesting though, because yeah, there is a little discrepancy in
these stories about the providence of the name, because we
have heard from other sources that this version that Caine
created was the bat dash Man, but then coming from
Finger himself, he's calling it Batman.
Speaker 1 (11:46):
Yeah, and this is this is interesting. So Finger looks
at this, and it's common for any of us in
creative circles when your friends ask you for advice, you
always have to check and say, do you what do
you want? Do you want me to tell you how
I feel about it? Or do you want specific notes?
Speaker 2 (12:05):
Right?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Do you want suggestions or do you want me to
or do you just want to show it to someone?
Finger probably puts his finger to his chin. It looks
at this because the.
Speaker 2 (12:15):
Singer's your move, yes a finger finger, yeah.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Okay, okay, And then he says, I've got a couple
of notes. And just like a studio exec or no
offense to the three of us, an executive producer, his
couple of notes comment means he wants to change almost everything.
Speaker 2 (12:32):
He starts with a costume, and.
Speaker 1 (12:34):
He says, let's give him a cowl instead of this,
instead of this domino mask. Let's make this suit darker.
Because when you think of bats, you think of nighttime
and He looks at the creation by Lee Fulk the Phantom,
and so he says, Okay, we're going to take Cane's
the Batman and we're going to morph it into the
(12:57):
more modern Batman we know today. Finger also generates the
backstory because the way history tells it, it seems like
Cain was inspired to do something like but not quite Superman,
and past the idea of an association with bats. He
hadn't really thought through the lore. That's where the writer
(13:18):
Finger comes in. He says, Okay, what does this guy
do when he's not dressed like this? Well, let's make
him interesting. His name is Bruce Wayne, and I'm taking
that from Robert to Bruce, a Scottish king of Old Bruce.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:33):
Apparently I did not know this bit of history, even
as a comic nerd. Apparently Finger chose the last name
Wayne because it suggested gentry and colonialism.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Mmm. Yeah, no, I didn't know that either. And another
thing that I didn't know this word cowl. I've only
really ever heard it associated with the bat, helmet or
whatever you want to call it. And I want to
ask you and put this to you. Are all cowls? Hoods?
Are some hoods, cowls. Is there a crossover between hood
(14:07):
and cowl? What does a cowl make? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Yeah, I think there's a crossover. I think technically it's
an overall garment and it comes from monastic practices.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
For sure, definitely monkish.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Like a robe with a hood is technically a cowl,
but often, and perhaps incorrectly, I hear it used to
mean just.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
The head piece. That's what I'm thinking, and that to
me is part is the distinction. And you can you
definitely see it's almost like a detachable hood that has
drapes that go over the shoulders as well, which is
totally what the Batman helmet hat cowl is. It's got
the hood part and then it goes down over the
shoulders and kind of down onto the chest a little
bit depending on the version.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Right, Yeah, so maybe that's it. I think we're onto something.
It's technically a cowl because it goes over the clavicle.
Yeah right, shake stends past the Okay.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Let's go, let's go with it. Yeah, sorry, I had
to take that little etymological diversion there.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
So Finger says. I tried Bruce Adams, I tried Bruce Hancock.
Then I thought of Mad Anthony Wayne. Oooh, Mad Anthony
what's his deal?
Speaker 2 (15:25):
Right?
Speaker 1 (15:26):
I love how he's saying that it's such a casual
of course, Mad Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
Tone. Yeah, everybody knows about Mad Anthony. I'm sure there are.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
A lot of history buffs who are scandalized right now.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
So, uh, Noel and Chainsaw.
Speaker 1 (15:40):
And I learned that Mad Anthony Wayne is a street
name for an American soldier and founding father named Anthony Wayne.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Whoa who looks exactly like George Washington? Yes, yeah, I mean,
I guess a lot of cats probably looked like that
back in those days. But it is uncanny, like the
the way he wears his hat, his posture, his powdered wig.
But again, probably not the most uncommon garb. But it's
really weird now I'm looking at all these portraits a
(16:11):
general outfit. Yeah, President, Wait a second, sorry, I went
down a quick off, Mike rabbit Hole. I'm like, was
Matt Anthony Wayne secretly the alter ego of George Washington? Right,
it'll be appropriate for this story, But no, he was
his own person. He was the fifth senior Officer of
(16:33):
the United States Army, hence the military garb and he
did serve under President George Washington. You know, he set
the tone for fashion choices. But did you.
Speaker 1 (16:43):
Ever see them in the same room at the same time.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Did Never? Did? We definitely didn't because we weren't there.
Speaker 1 (16:50):
But okay, so our buddy Finger clearly a well read guy,
knows a lot about history. He's taking inspiration for the
name Bruce Wayne from history, and he says, look, I'm
combining this freedom fighter, Robert the Bruce, with this crazy
revolutionary war hero, and that's perfect for Batman. This is
(17:12):
a wealthy taunt a playboy by day, but at night
he's super serious. He's superhumanly serious. He's a vigilante battles crime.
And he also doesn't have People will tell you he
doesn't have superpowers. I've winged about this on stuff they
don't want you to know at length. Being a billionaire
(17:34):
is a superpower.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
So he was born on third Yeah, for sure. So
it is cool. Though it is, I still would argue
that it is an interesting foible. Let's just say that
the guy is a bit of a human man with
with you know, flaws, and he can't just vaporize you
with a look like Superman can do. So it did
(17:59):
make him a little bit more of an everyman relatively speaking,
despite the billionaire of it all. Finger conceived of Wayne
being like the detective, you know, with powers of deduction
and all of that, like a Sherlock Holmes type figure,
and perkine in a documentary many decades later. Finger was
a contributing force on Batman right from the beginning. This
(18:23):
is a lot of revisionist history from Cain that we're
going to get into. When you kind of had a
bit of a change of heart or a pang of conscience.
I made Batman a superhero vigilante when I first created him.
Bill turned him into a scientific detective. I mean, obviously
DC Comics stands for detective comics, So just putting that
out there.
Speaker 1 (18:42):
It's also cool to see that this bears echoes of
other earlier comic strip heroes who were things like superpowered
doctors or super scientists. So there is a lineage there
that's fascinating. Maybe we can recommend some books to learn
more about this. Check out the STORENKO History of Comics.
(19:05):
This is where Finger talks at length about some of
his creations, including Gotham City. Okay, I'll say this DC
has a mixed bag hit or miss record with naming
fictional cities. I think Metropolis and Gotham are probably the best.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Yeah, the but what are some bad examples? I don't
think I'm deep enough to know.
Speaker 1 (19:25):
Things like Central City, Key City.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Yeah, okay, got it. Not Yeah, Gotham is awesome because
it is very much New York, but it's not called
New York. It's New York but not New York. It's
almost this like I mean, let's just say a gothed
up version of New York and my favorite depiction of it.
I'm not deep into the comics, but I love the
Tim Burton Batman version of Gotham City. I think, oh,
(19:52):
I think your rules.
Speaker 1 (19:53):
Yeah, I'd like I'd like more Danny DeVito as the Penguin.
Speaker 2 (19:58):
I think it's great.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
The New Anguin series was really good.
Speaker 2 (20:01):
I was very good. And I love the Robert Pattinson
the Batman quite a lot.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Oh yeah, did you see that deleted scene with the Joker?
Speaker 2 (20:08):
So yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's great. Good.
Speaker 1 (20:11):
Well okay, Well we want you to know how excellent
the end result was and how close Gotham City came
to being called Civic City or coast city or capital city.
So the guy Finger literally goes to a phone book
for New York City and flips through the pages. He
(20:34):
sees a listing for Gotham Jewelers, and he says, that's it,
Gotham City. We can't straight up call it New York,
even though it is New York Noir. We can't call
it New York because we wanted anybody in any city
to identify with this. So people do refer to New
York as Gotham sometimes. Is that a direct reference to Batman?
(20:55):
Because this Gotham Jewelers that wasn't already a term used
to New York. Gotham in this respect, I imagined was
maybe a family name, or are some other kind of descriptive.
I think the use of Gotham to describe New York
came later and is maybe a direct reference to its.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Use in Batman.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
You know, I think the vast majority of us associate
Gotham with New York because of Batman and the Batman universe.
But if you go to Untapped Cities dot Com and
look at Untapped New York, we see that the emergence
of the nickname Gotham for New York dates back to
a November eleventh, eighteen oh seven issue of a I
(21:36):
guess it just for laughs kind of satirical mad magazine
thing called Love.
Speaker 2 (21:42):
Yeah. Yeah, from our boy Washington Irving, who I believe
wrote The Headless Horseman, came up with all of that
yidy hollow all that stuff. Very cool. I saw that too,
and that's really glad we looked at that at the
same time.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
And the narrator of Irving's history of New York is
d Drik Knickerbocker.
Speaker 2 (22:01):
No, it's not, is that true? Yes, amazing full circle,
that is where the magic happens. Man, I love it.
So Gotham City is born, and that was because of
a direct input from our boy Finger. He's also quite
adept at coming up with villain ideas and helping to
shape maybe some of Cain's broader ideas. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
The Finger writes the first issue of the Batman comic
book series, in which we are introduced to the Joker
and the Catwoman, and then Finger goes on to create
the concept of the bat Cave and the Batmobile.
Speaker 2 (22:39):
And then if you have you seen and in the
first issue of Sandman, which was much more trying to
tie it in with the DC universe. There's a brief
Batman moment where it shows the bat Cave with these
oversized pennies and like there's a t Rex or something,
and I guess that's a reference to this old timey
version of the Batcave. And I'm only just now putting
(23:01):
that together because I was very confused when I first
saw that, because I was not familiar with the early
Batman comics and that lore.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Yeah, yeah, and it's sort of a I think it's
a nod to trophies he's collected from. Weird supervillains. DC
also went crazy on super villains that maybe don't necessarily
have an extraordinary ability, but they have gadgets or they're
just really hung up on something, like a mad Hatter
(23:29):
or calendar Man.
Speaker 2 (23:30):
Calendar Man. Calendar Man that sounds like the dullest supervillain ever.
He is like really in the leap year, Like what's
his beef? He is?
Speaker 1 (23:41):
He commits crimes that are like holiday themed. Okay, are
making this up? I swear, dude, this and this is thing.
There was a reboot of calendar Man that turned him
into a serial killer, which was darker, made a lot
more sense.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Apparently, the new James Gunn bat Superman. That's being really
divisive already. Some of the early reviews some people were
not a fan. But it does apparently lean more into
some of these absurd kind of early kind of schlocky
comicsy stuff. It's got like Mister Terrific and a lot
of these like sort of lesser you know, characters that
(24:20):
maybe you're not familiar with. I want you to see it.
There's a dog, apparently a super dog. I did just
want to say, Ben, I thought I heard a really
interesting quote from the singer whose her name is Aurora,
and she's a very quirky, little Icelandic lady and very
byork asked. But in her own right, she's got, she's talented.
She had this to say, how come super villains are
(24:41):
always trying to change things and superheroes are always trying
to keep things the same? Oh that's great. I love that.
I thought that was pretty good.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Yeah, yeah, I think Bill Finger would like that.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
I think he would do.
Speaker 1 (24:57):
So Bill goes on to create Scarecrow, the Penguin Commissioner Gordon,
and of course Batman's sidekick Robin the Boy won he
needed a bit of a Watson figure, didn't he Yeah, yeah,
I think you're right. And this is where we start
to see these creators come to not blows, but it
(25:18):
come to a divergence point our buddy Caine. He says, look, Robin,
his origin should parallel the origin of Batman, and then
Finger says, I hear you, but let's make his parents
circus performers. They can still get murdered. I know that's
important for you, but they're murdered during a trapeze act. Okay, cool,
(25:41):
a bit of a sart distill at mishap.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
It's true. And if there is one version of that
that I will always remember, it is from a very
bad Batman movie Batman and Robin. But I do remember
the way it's depicted his parents, you know, eating in
on the trapeze.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Is that the one where they gave the Is that
the one where they put nipples on the suits?
Speaker 2 (26:03):
They put nipples on the suits, nipples on a breastplate.
It's true, all of those, Yon Debunt. I think that's
the guy that directed it. I'm not mistaken.
Speaker 1 (26:12):
Well, it's it's tough to work in entertainment, so making
movies is hard. Yeah, yeah, we're being diplomatic.
Speaker 2 (26:20):
No, sorry, it is Joel Schumacher. He's the one who
did the nipples on the batsuit Batman movies.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, and it's tough to work in entertainment. It's making
and making a movie is hard. H So back to
Kane and Finger. Finger says, look, Robin is the outgrowth
of a conversation I have with Bob Bob Kine uh
and he describes the excellent comparison you made earlier. He says,
Batman is a combination of Douglas Fairbanks and Sherlock Holmes.
(26:51):
Holmes has a Watson, and this is what sticks out.
Finger is not necessarily chasing the best story here, He's
chasing a practical problem. He says, look, Batman doesn't have
anyone to talk to.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
Do we not have an Alfred yet? At this point,
we don't have an Alfred? Y interesting?
Speaker 1 (27:10):
Okay, you know that's a great question. I'm not sure
where we have an Alfred just yet. But we know
that Alfred is usually in weighing manor right, or in
the batcave. So when Batman's out busting heads and doing investigations,
he's always having an interior monologue. And Fingers like, we
(27:30):
got to get this guy someone to talk to, because.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
It would appear that Robin came before Alfred, so he
literally had nobody. Yeah, he was all alone in his
giant mansion.
Speaker 1 (27:39):
And also Robin is great marketing for the demographic right
of circus performers. Speaking of circuses, let's go to the
clown Prints of Crime, one of the most well known
(28:01):
comic book villains of all time and arguably a dark
mirror of Batman because he is brilliant. He also loves gadgets,
and he also has no superhuman powers.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, and I'm really into the imagery. I haven't read
a ton of them. I've read a few of the stories.
But there is a alternate universe version of the Joker
that I believe is called the One Who Laughs or
something along those lines. Maybe that's the name of the series.
But he's got like he's all sm m'ed out and
has like spikes on around his eyes. He looks like
(28:36):
a freakin hell Raiser character.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Yeah, that's the dark version of Bruce Wayne who got
poisoned by Jokers. Joker gas his evil laughing gas, and
it drove that Bruce Wayne crazy.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
Right, And it's the Batman who Laughs, is what it's
called so obviously a reference to this whole situation where
inspiration was taken from a film version of Alexandra Duma
and Victor Hugo. It was like believe a silent film.
And Sir, I think I'm getting a little confused here
(29:14):
because there are some overlapping versions of this. The what
they're talking about is a series of English translations of
Alexander Duma and Victor Hugo, and the volume that they
had they were referring to was called The Man Who Laughs,
which is originally published under the title By the Order
of the King.
Speaker 1 (29:34):
Yeah, and by this point there have been some adaptations
of the show. We know Fingers looking at the book,
but he's also probably aware of him and Kane both
of the film adaptation, which I think we're both more
familiar with, the nineteen twenty eight The Man Who.
Speaker 2 (29:50):
Laughs and he looks like the joker, I mean the
actor portraying him here. It's a German expressionist film and
looks at it. I mean, it's very Cabinet of Doctor
Kaligari type vibes by Carl Lemley and the actor portraying
this character is named Conrad Vitz and he has this
(30:11):
rictus grin, and even the same hairline and kind of
puffy hairdoo that the joker ultimately had, not green though,
or wearing makeup joker.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Makeup right, No, he's just he's had an operation that
fixes that rictus smile. Creepy, it's super creepy. I'm into it. Also,
Bill Finger is only looking at these comparisons or inspirations because,
according to him, he talked about the idea of a
(30:43):
clown prince of crime with Bob Kine. Bob made a
sketch that did not look like a joker. It looked
more like a clown, and so he and Bob worked together.
He gave Bob this picture the man who laughs, and
then Bob takes as a as an inspiration or starting
point of reference is the word we'd use in art,
(31:06):
and he starts working over the face. He says, okay,
he'll be a little bit clown like so, white face,
red lips, green hair, but not all the way clown.
You know, he has a regular.
Speaker 2 (31:18):
Nose exactly, no, exactly, not the Hong Kong knows of
classic circus clowns. Finger has this kind of scrap book idea,
you know, little black book situation full of random facts,
newspaper clippings, and notes that he could use in future
Batman stories. He would ride the bus every day to
(31:38):
get where he was gone and take in the New
York city scapes, which further fueled the inspiration for Gotham.
The Wayne's family's tragic demise and the clashes between Batman
and the underbelly of Gotham were absolutely a product of
this solitary existence that that Finger led.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
Exactly, and this state of isolation is Fingers inspiration.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
In some ways.
Speaker 1 (32:07):
This gives Cain the opportunity to fully put himself in
the limelight. So you know, there are some creative duos
where one maybe Empire of the Sun is a good comparison.
Remember that band from Perth. Two guys, Yeah, dancing kind
of stuff. Yeah, but one guy is very much in
(32:30):
the forefront, right, and he's the he's the big theatrical
draw and they're friends, they're great musicians. They just have
a different, different approach to the public. And that's what
we see with Cain and Finger. Finger is kind of
hiding away and Cain is walking into the limelight and
talking about Batman, right, And it seems that over time
(32:53):
Cain starts to purposely push Finger further into the background, which.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
Is kind of the borderline beginning to push him out.
Speaker 1 (33:05):
Yeah, it's also ungrateful because Batman wouldn't exist without Finger, right.
He figured out a lot of things that were key
to Batman's success. But Kane was effective with his fans.
He would show up in an expensive suit or get this, folks,
a cowl.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
And he uh.
Speaker 1 (33:24):
He wrote a self aggrandizing autobiography that kind of reminds
me of the way Edgar Allan Poe would write very
high faluting explanations of his poems like never More and
so on.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
It's worth a read if you would know for sure,
I'll check it out.
Speaker 1 (33:44):
Apparently, though, he does cross over to the dark side
because Cain's king becomes accused of passing off other people's
oil paintings of Batman as his own birth.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
This is again another parallel from the Peluca story. That
guy was taking a lot of credit where credit was
most certainly not due. But you know, his actions ultimately
led to him being in the catbird seat. As far
as you know, the financial successes of Batman as a
piece of intellectual property that would prove to be incredibly valuable.
(34:20):
Andrea puts it that Kane villainously executed deals and negotiations
with the explicit purpose of keeping Finger out of said deals.
Per comic book historian Arlen Schumer. Unfortunately, the deal happened
because Bob Kane had the lawyer father, and Bill Finger
was shy. Bob Kane went in and his father made
(34:43):
sure that his name was on it. That's how Bill
Finger ended up getting shunted away from his co creation. Terrible.
Speaker 1 (34:49):
You hate to see it, you know, because so much
of creativity is collaboration. Dassie Comics said, Okay, we'd love this.
Speaker 2 (34:58):
We need our own super.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
Yeah, we need some more of this, and so they say,
we're going to publish the Batman comics for you, and
Cain make sure that he is the only one who
gets to showcase Batman to DC. He's the guy who
gets to talk with the big execs about this character,
and under the advice of again his father, who is
(35:22):
an attorney, he negotiates sole credit as the creator of
Batman and a percentage of everything DC Comics may license
the character on in the future. This is a gold mine.
Batman works out. Cain amasses ten million dollars throughout his life,
(35:43):
and in the same time, in doing so, he has
sacrificed the guy who made him successful. His former pal
Bill Finger is relegated to obscurity. Cain draws the comics.
He also credits himself as the writer, and Finger is
nothing more than a ghostwriter. Nobody really knew about this,
(36:04):
you know, when they're reading comics at the time, they're
just thinking, this Bill Kane guy. He's a real tour
right in the comic world. And it's not till nineteen
sixty five that Bill Finger gets named as co creator
in something I didn't know existed, a fanzine dedicated to Batman.
So not part of DC, just a guy named Jerry
(36:27):
Bales who loves Batman so much that he makes a
magazine about how he loves Batman. It's a little meta.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
It is Matta And just a quick mention, I'm a
big fan of the podcast of the Ringer Network, like
you know, The Big Picture and the Watch And if
you want to get into some Batman deep dives, there's
a podcast called The House of r that has an
episode called literally the Batman Deep Dive, where Joanna Robinson,
(36:54):
who's one of my favorite hosts on the network and
her co host Mal dig deep into the history of
DC comics and Gotham's underbelly.
Speaker 1 (37:04):
This is so weird because now you mentioned it, you
inspired me just to check on the fly here on air,
I found a list of multiple Batman podcasts twenty best
Batman podcast. Wow, Holy RSS feed. I didn't know there
were so many out there. Well, that's cool, man, Yeah,
(37:26):
check it out. Let us know what you think. We
know that by the mid nineteen sixties, as more audience
members are learning about the existence of Bill Finger, we
see that he makes a rare appearance in New York City.
Actually people know about him because this notoriously shy guy
(37:48):
does actually show up in public, and that's what inspires
the digging into the story. He's at the New York
City Comic Con and afterwards there's an article in this
Batman fancy called if the Truth Be Known or a
Finger in every plot, and it talks about how we
were misled, how Cain was not the one man army
(38:11):
of Batman, but did indeed have a lot of help
from a guy you've never heard of named Bill Finger.
Speaker 2 (38:17):
And Cain responded with his own angry letter condemning Fingers
claim to Batman, stating Bill Finger has given out the
impression that he and not myself created the Batman, as
well as Robin and all the other leading villains and characters.
This statement is fraudulent and entirely untrue. This is myth.
(38:37):
The truth is that Bill Finger is taking credit for
much more than he deserves, and I refute much of
his statements here in print.
Speaker 1 (38:46):
Yeah, he says, this is so Poluka. The only proof
I need to back my statement is that if Bill
co authored and conceive the idea, either with me or
before me, then he would most certainly have a byeline
on the strip along with my name. It's been twenty
five years now, and truthfully, times sometimes blurs the memory,
(39:08):
and it's difficult to separate at times, So that I
cannot blame Bill too much. If at times his memory clouds,
I'll say it, I don't you know what I know
A letter writer thirteen or PG. Thirteen But what a dick.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
It is a move, for sure, But I just I
do stand by. I do love old school letter feuds.
Oh I love that you don't write like this anymore.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
If your insolence is borish and shall not stand and
it shall not. Yes, Okay, there is a big problem
here because that one article shouting out Finger is pretty
much the only voice in the ocean. Yeah, misinformation, and
Finger passes away in obscurity, very much isolated. In nineteen
(39:58):
seventy four, as we mentioned, his heart gives out, Cain
lives long enough to see the box office film adaptations
of Batman.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
And it's banging depiction of Gotham City, which, as we know,
you know, very much a product of the imagination of
Finger and his solitary you know, journeys throughout New York
City on the bus.
Speaker 1 (40:27):
Oh gosh, what a beautiful image, you know. And I
think we're both fans of being strangers in a strange land.
I just love being out in an unfamiliar place and
soaking it in anyway, for one reason or another, perhaps
he's mellowing with age. Perhaps he sees the massive cinematic
(40:47):
success of Batman. We don't know why, but Cain develops
a guilty conscious of sorts, and he later says, Bill,
Finger and I created the Joker. Bill was the writer.
Jerry Robinson came to me with a playing card of
the Joker. That's the way I sum it up, and
then he shouts out the man who laughs just like
we did. And he's saying this because he wants people
(41:10):
to realize that he and Bill created the Joker, not
this guy Jerry Robinson.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
So only now does he give credit where credit to
dude to like get rid of the secret third thing
right exactly.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
And he he says that if he could do this
all over again, he would give Bill Finger his due
credit on Batman. And he says, now that my longtime
friend and collaborator is gone, I must admit that Bill
never received the fame and recognition he deserved. He was
an unsung hero. I often tell my wife, if I
(41:45):
could go back fifteen years before he died, I would
like to say, I'll put your name on it now.
You deserve it.
Speaker 2 (41:52):
I'm big of you. Yeah, I will.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
Not million dollars, Yeah, not a pauper's great, but certainly
I mean, come on, yeah, not terrible.
Speaker 2 (42:03):
But you know, DC did eventually follow suit. They refused
for a long time to credit Finger, but in twenty twelve,
after the release of a biographical graphic novel Bill the
Boy Wonder about Fingers life by a French author Mark
Tyler and Nobleman. Also a Hulu documentary that was released
based on Nobleman's book. DC finally gave in and decided
(42:27):
to give credit to Finger as co creator to Batman.
After seventy six years, Fingers name does finally appear on
the cover of every Batman comics issue in future TV
and film adaptations that would be released from that point on.
So a bit of a happy ending there, if not
in dude's lifetime.
Speaker 1 (42:44):
Yeah, which happens so often in the creative arts. You know,
we have a joke in the world of writers, how
do you become a successful writer?
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Diem h. Yeah. Unfortunately it is the same with a
lot times with painters, and you know, many brilliant people
who have not who are not appreciated in their lifetime.
But you know, so it goes. In twenty seventeen, Finger
is honored with a street being named after him in
New York City at easton one hundred and ninety second
Street Way uptown between Grand Concourse and Valentine Avenue was
(43:20):
renamed Bill Finger Way.
Speaker 1 (43:23):
Which here's what I like about this, that is such
an interesting name for the Bronx. Is the Bronx that
you will you would see that street name and then
if you look it up you will learn the hidden
history of Batman.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
That's true.
Speaker 1 (43:38):
That's kind of cool. I'm down with that. No, that's cool.
Speaker 2 (43:40):
I like it when they named streets after creative people,
Like there's the Beastie Boys. I want to say, got
a street in New York named after them recently, So
there you go. Fingers name, first reported by the South
Bronx blog Welcome to the Bronx, appears blocks from Poe Park,
where Canaan Finger would sometimes hang out to talk about
(44:01):
Dark Knight business and mythos.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Oh and this gives us some breaking news. This happened
just yesterday week recording on Thursday, July tenth. But Jack Kirby,
the legendary creator for Marvel, he just had two streets
named after him.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Oh, like this week.
Speaker 1 (44:22):
Maybe that's because the Fantastic four film is coming out soon.
Speaker 2 (44:25):
I think that must be true. Man, there is an
origin story Fantastic form would be coming out that looks
like a lot of fun. Agreed, And we hope you've.
Speaker 1 (44:33):
Had a lot of fun traveling down this road with
us through the hidden history of Gotham and Batman and
the Man.
Speaker 2 (44:41):
Who laughs big.
Speaker 1 (44:42):
Thanks to our super producer Max Williams, who will be
returning tat It Up Big. Thanks to our guest superproducer
Dylan the Chainsaw Fagan, who Else, who Else?
Speaker 2 (44:52):
Oh Boy, Chris Frasciotas Eve, Jeff cots Here in Spirit,
Jonathan Strick on the Quistar, aj Mohammas, Jacob's The Puzzler.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And of course our dear rude Dudes of Ridiculous Crime.
If you dig us, you'll dig them. Join us for
our classic coming out this weekend, as well as our
further adventures in the weeks and days to come.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
We'll see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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