In the second part of this two-part series, special guest Wayne Federman explores the strange, curse-word-riddled stand-up bit that resulted in George Carlin setting a legal precedent with the Supreme Court. Listen in to learn how curse words changed the world and sparked a debate that continues today.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Fellow ridiculous historians, welcome back. We've got a classic episode
for you that we are quite excited about. We want
to tell you at the top this might not be
appropriate for all the kiddos with the sensitive ear lobes.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It's funny.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I was just telling you Ben Off Mike about the
recently reconnecting with the dude who hooked us up with
mister Wayne Fetterman, comedy legend, comedy expert, educator, Los Angeles
comedy scene luminary.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And I did mention to this.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Guy Jeff, that this was by far the filthiest episode
pair of episodes in fact, that we have ever done
here on our humble little PG thirteen show.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yes, even more so than the James Joyce episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hey, you guys think of that James Joyce?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It was a bunch of people like talking on the
street about their favorite James Joyce quote, and it was
a joke.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Obviously all of them were from the Filthy party letters.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yes, and filthy farty letters have have always been a
struggle in a lot of societies. What does free speech mean?
What makes a word a dirty work?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And what makes a fart not free speech? I think
it is. It's a kind of speech.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It is a kinde of speech.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, are we or are we not? Today talking about
George Carlin and his list of dirty words and how
that kind of got under a little b in the
bonnet of the FCC. They won't let George b.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
All the way up to the US Supreme Court. And
we're learning this with our returning special guests, the legendary
Wayne Fetterman. So let's roll it, folks. Thanks for tuning in.
Let's do it. Before we get started, folks, it's important
to know that this episode contains some strong and explicit
language that may not be suitable for all the listeners.
(01:51):
So if you've got your kiddos in the crowd, this
might not be the episode for them. We thought about
censoring it, but we decided we couldn't, not in good faith,
because this episode is fundamentally about free speech and language.
We hope you enjoy. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.
(02:36):
Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you for
tuning in. If you check the headlines or the title
of your podcast before you listen to them, you will
know that this is episode two of a two part series.
If you have not heard episode one, please don't delay,
click pause, go listen to episode one. You'll want to
(02:56):
catch up. Hi, I'm ben.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Hey, it's me. No, my microphonic glory.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
You sound wonderful.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Man again, it's my dulcet tones.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Dulcet tones. Yeah. So we had, as we said, a
little bit of a technical difficulty in the first episode.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, hopefully you could hear me bleeding into another mic,
but it's just not as high fidelity as this is.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Listen to me leaning into the mic.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Well done. So we are of course always accompanied by
a super producer to help us save the show. Today
that is our guest super producer, Paul Decant. However, we
still hold a very special place in our hearts for
our super producer, Casey Pigri, and a glint in our
(03:37):
eye and a swing in our step.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
And we are also joined today by our incredible guest
Wayne Fetterman, who had some incredible things to say about
the history of stand up the storied careers of Lenny
Bruce and today specifically George Carlin.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
And without further ado, let's get the show on the road.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
This is this is incredible. I am still like It's amazing.
This all happened when I was a kid, so it's
just it was just great. George Carlin again, who was,
you know, a beneficiary of Lenny Bruce's expanding expansion of language,
and there was a number of comedians like it allowed
Red Fox and Richard Pryor to speak in their street
(04:22):
vernacular without getting arrested, you know, just like, I don't know,
this is the way I talk on the corner when
I'm making people laugh. I think I can bring this
on stage. But Carlin was like, I don't know what
indecent or means exactly, So I'm going to come up
with a list of words you can never say on television,
(04:44):
right and those words I'm gonna say right now. This
is in order. It's shit, piss, fuck, hunt, cocksucker, motherfucker,
and tits. So that is that was the original bit
of his. And he later was like, it's weird that
I put motherfucker in there because I already said fuck earlier,
which is a version of it. But he just liked
(05:04):
the rhythm of it, and I just need to say
this because it's very important to the whole story. George
Carlin didn't want to be a comedian, George Carlin wanted
to be a famous actor, movie star, and his idol
was a guy named Danny Kay. And Danny Kay was
known for these very twisty songs and speeches where he
(05:26):
would have high level of verbal acuity.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, yeah, Just to interject real quick, I'm so glad
you mentioned Danny k Wayne because ahead he is one
of the actors I loved growing up, especially in the
original version of Walter Mitty, so or totally familiar with
that turn of phrase. So that that was Carlin's sort
of north star.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
For a while, it was his north star until he
realized that he hated acting for kind of the reasons
that we spoke about earlier. That he was just he
didn't like authority, you know, like if there's a director
on the sad time him to stand here and say this,
he's not gonna like that. He didn't realize it at
the time. He was like, Oh, I'd rather just write
(06:08):
and say my own stuff, you know, and be completely
free of Even when he hosted Saturday Night Live, he
said to Lord Michael's, I don't want to be an
they sketches, I don't want to rehearse these things can
I just do my comedy and you know, and bring
my brain and my mouth and that'll be good. That'll
be good. And he's the first host of the first
Saturday Night Live in you know whatever nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
I believe.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
So.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Anyway, so that's that ended his Danny cadream. But this bit,
the shit piss, fuck, hunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits has
a certain Gilbert and Sullivan rhythm to it that he loved,
and that was part of the bit. That's what made
that as well as these words. So anyway, he did
(06:52):
this bit on an album called Class Clown, came out
in nineteen seventy two. The next year he does another
album called Occupation Fool, and he expands on it and
he calls it the filthy words. This is what happens.
There's a public radio station or excuse me, not public
at PACIFICA. What is that? How would you describe PACIFICA
(07:12):
that network college?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah. Yeah, they're certainly not like a top forty like right,
They're kind of alternative for their day, you know.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Right, progress I would say, progressive radio station. There we
go in New York again, in New York, you know,
the vanguard of progressivism WBAI, and they're doing a whole
thing about just language and the hypocrisy of language, and
where's this thing? And so they play filthy Words, which
is kind of an expanse. He talks about shit a lot,
shit faced, what is a you know, shit kicker and
(07:42):
all of that. Some guy named I came John Douglas.
I just I don't remember that, but I wrote it down.
He hears it in his car with his fifteen year
old son. Again, we're going to go back to youth,
remember that statute youth and others, And he called this
is in the middle of the afternoon. They play it
and WBAI says, look, this might be offensive, but I
(08:05):
just he's just talking about words. He's just using words
to talk about words and our language. So he caused
the FCC lodge is a complaint. The FCC says, you're
going to get a mark on your record. I think
some people said it was one hundred dollars fine, other
people said no, I'm not sure. And basically WBAI PACIFICA
(08:26):
Radio says I'm going to sue the FCC and say
this is unconstitutional because of the First Amendment. For playing this.
George Carlin Bitt on the air at two o'clock on
a Tuesday afternoon in nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Any questions, I think we're with you so far, but
this sounds like sounds like it's about to get quickly
out of control.
Speaker 6 (08:46):
Right.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Guess what. The US Court of Appeals in Washington, DC.
You may be familiar with that court. Brett Kavanaugh was
just on that court. Merrik Garland is on that court
that's considered the highest up to the right below the
Supreme Court, the penultimate court. Right, Yeah, they agree with PACIFICA.
They were like, yeah, this is this is too broad
(09:07):
a definition what's indecent or obscene? And we're going to
strike down this fine or this mark on your record.
So guess what. They bring it to the Supreme Court,
and in a five to four decision, this is George Carlin,
a ninth grade dropout, having his words read in the
(09:28):
Supreme Court. Wow about whether they think these words are
indecent or obscene or what the difference between indecent or
obscene is.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And guess what.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
The Court, in a very narrow five to four decisions
says that during the daytime hours, the FCC does have
the right to say you can't play anything that would
be considered obscene or indecent, but after ten.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
O'clock you can't. Yeah, I think the term is safe harbor,
I believe is the term they are. Yes, that is right.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I love the research you guys are doing. So that's
kind of what I happened. And I just carl into
the day he died. He said he always had a
perverse pride in the fact that somewhere in Supreme Court
like case law as a precedent that his stupid routine
he did on an album called you know class, excuse me,
(10:19):
occupation fool is part of the history, the legal history
of the United States.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well, let's hear a quick moment of Carlin himself talking
about how he feels about words in some of this
love it.
Speaker 6 (10:34):
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words
in and of themselves. They're only words. It's the context
that counts.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
It's the user.
Speaker 6 (10:45):
It's the intention behind the words that makes them good
or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent.
I get tired of people talking about bad words and
bad language.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Bullshit.
Speaker 6 (10:55):
It's the context that makes them good or bad, but
context that makes them good.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
There we do also want to mention we would be
remiss if we skipped this part. Yeah, not only not
only is Carlin's or excerpts of Carlin's performance and his
writing part of Supreme Court case law, but he was
quoted alongside Shakespeare and passages from the Bible, I think
(11:22):
the Bible. In the Bible, they mentioned the line. They
were like, oh, is this motherfucker stuff so bad? Because
the Bible says he who pisseth against the wall, So
where's the line? And then they also mentioned Shakespeare saying
pissing conduits. So this became an argument and started as
this again sort of hypocritical argument about decency in the
(11:45):
hearts and minds of the innocent and unspoiled, but it
quickly became a much more I think, a much more
intelligent argument about the role of language and literature. And
you know what, good on Carlin. Yeah, earned it, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And I'm still deciding whether or not we can even
release this episode fully uncensored. This is a family show
technically just FYI, but I think this is valuable to
the point of like, you can't censor it, and it almost.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Do is it would be hypocritical of us.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It would be hilariously hypocritical.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
This is like we're caught in a loop here. We
are a lot to talk about these words. Now we're
going to be setser. No, it's true because Carlin couldn't
say these words when he did The Tonight Shoe or
talk about it that way. But when he did Chris
Rock's HBO Joe, he was able to say the words.
(12:43):
So it is interesting. I mean, it's still you wouldn't
want to say these words in front of a kid.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I guess right.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
It depends on the kid. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, kids have really tough, tough constitutions.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
My nine year old, who's actually here right now, has
been like giving us the devil horns this whole time.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, I don't even know
where do we go from here? So yeah, what's next?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Well, the Supreme Court case was in nineteen seventy eight,
but really what happened in nineteen seventy five changed everything,
and that's when HBO started doing these hour specials. They
were called eventually called on Location and the first one
was done by Robert Klein at a school in the Northeast,
and he's a very clean comedian, but even in that
specially goes, all right, I have total freedom to say anything.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Chit.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
You know, he just said, just to say the words.
But then the next in nineteen seventy seven, Carlin does
and if you can find this, this would be amazing.
His first of fourteen HBO specials. And before the special begins,
they have a newscaster talking about that this there's gonna
be some language on here that you're not used to
(13:49):
hearing on television. And then this gets even crazier. In
the middle of an HBO special, they stopped the special
and run a disclaimer on with the screen saying, the
next portion of this comedy act will contain language that
might be unsuitable for children, please, and then cuts back
to Carlin at usc just to bring it all full
(14:11):
circle at Beauvart Auditorium and then talks about you know,
these this language and these words, and he sort of
became famous for this in a way where the language
and the arrests of Lenny Bruce sort of destroyed Lenny
Bruce in a way. It did make him famous, but
he became so consumed with it, and if you really
(14:33):
listen to his act at the end, a lot of
times he would just read court transcripts. Was his act.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Wow, he was obsessed?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Huh yes, yes, very much so. And you know, I
don't know how much of the drugs were making them
paranoid or whatever, but it's like, it's very it's it's
really sad to listen to him just go on and
on about it. And in a way, it elevated Carlin's career.
So in a short period of time from let's say
sixty five, I guess seventy fives, like in those ten
(15:02):
years have started to change. And then once we got
those HBO specials, suddenly there's Red Fox doing an HBO
special where you know, he's like, I don't want to
repeat the language, but it's you know, his graphic adult entertainment.
So and that continues to this day. Although I will
say this, I do feel like there's a different kind
of censorship going on now in comedy a little bit.
(15:27):
And Carlin talked about it at the end that he
wouldn't play colleges, and I know Seinfeld won't and I
know Chris Rock because people are so sensitive about hearing
something that might be offensive, like offensive is the new
and decent in our society. Again, no one's gonna get arrested,
but you might get shamed or lose a job because
of it.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So what would be an example of that?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
What do you mean an example Seinfeld bits or like
somebody being you know, I mean, I can think of
one off the top. And this is a really extreme
example by that guy Milo Yanopolis, who is a alt
right kind of looty tune like you can, you can
disagree with what he has to say, but technically, you know,
you would like to have him have the right to
say it.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
But he's also not doing comedy.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
No, he's not doing comedy, but.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Doing comedy, but he was he was banned from all
these college campuses.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And this is not me saying good on my law.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I'm just saying we're talking about the First Amendment, and
there are lines between like, you know, being indecent and
and uh, you know, being a supporter of violence. So
the whole deal with like indecency is like or freedom
of speech is like you can say what you want
as long as you're not actively hurting something.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
But freedom of speech is also not freedom from consequences.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
No, that's also true.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
But I'm just wondering, like this whole PC police thing,
I think that's why I brought up this extreme example,
because he is an extreme example of not being PC.
And I don't think this is exclusively a discussion about comedy.
This is about speech.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
So I'm just yes, it is right, Yes it is
and I look, I agree, I look, I'm listening very
carefully to what you're saying, and I agree with you,
and I don't. I'm not that familiar with Milo's stuff
other than being its in his fan club, but I
know a lot. No, but I do think it's interesting
that Carlin and Seinfeld and Chris Rock won't play colleges
(17:11):
because of how offensive might some people might find what they're.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Saying, which is strange.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
It's not strange because you can really get I don't
want to use the word bullied, but you can really
get publicly shamed online in a big way if you know,
if people think what you're saying is offensive. And again,
I you know, this doesn't affect me personally, but as
a somebody who's like interested in the history of comedy,
I feel like the walls are narrowing, as opposed to
(17:41):
for so long in my life they just kept broadening.
And it used to be like if you made fun
of Catholics or something like that, and they get upset.
You're like, well f them if they can't take a joke.
But that doesn't exist anymore for some people who feel
like you can't make fun of a marginalized community. That's
a euphemism. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
So it's like any any of that. So it's I know,
(18:04):
this is off the track a little bit.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I don't even know if you want to not at all,
not at all, not at all.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
But I do think it is interesting that we've become
we've sort of shrunk back to a much more like
be careful, walking on eggshells comedy around certain subjects that
didn't exist when I was a kid. And I know
Carlin said something phenomenal about it. He said that political
correctness is and I'm paraphrasing here and sipid because it
(18:32):
comes under the guise of tolerance. Is like, that's you're
under the guys of hey, we're just trying to make
it all better for everyone. But basically what you're doing,
you're just saying you can't say.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
That, right.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
He hated that it's the opposite of comedy, right, it's
the opposite of what stand up.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Comedy, the opposite of free speech. Yeah, more importantly, Yeah,
but he knew, you know, it was interesting that he
had that that side. He saw it coming, and he
really railed against it in a big way.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Do you see this trend? You know, if we've walked
through some of the histories, so let's let's walk toward
the future. Do you see this trend escalating or do
you think it's just another cyclical thing that will fall away.
I guess what I'm asking is, do we have some
more Supreme Court cases in the future if we had
to guess that.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Would I don't think so, because I don't think it's
about the I don't think any government is going in
I don't to tell you the truth, I don't know.
It all depends on hate speech, is basically. What it
comes down to is whether you think hate speech is
something that should exist or that is completely protected by
the First Amendment. So and you know, I know you're
(19:43):
not allowed to incite somebody, Okay, these words are so
you know, amorphous or but I know you're not allowed
to do that. So so I don't think this is
this is more about you know, vigilante vigilanteism in each control,
you know, in the same way Catholics used to do
it in the you know, in the forties.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's such a slippery slope to because what about like
things like dog whistle politics, where you have these uh,
potentially racist speakers that aren't outright saying exactly, kill kill
this group of people or hurt this group of people,
but they're using these kind of coded words that speak
to their base or what have you, and then that's interpreted.
But you know, from a legal standpoint, you can't say, oh,
(20:32):
he said to do this, because it's all in the subtext.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Again, what is insights?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, and it's it's you know, that's the whole thought
police thing where it's like, once you start banning words
like Carlin's words, you potentially could ban any word.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So it's dangerous territory. But it's also like, where does
that leave us?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I strongly feel like we should not bleep this episode.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Yeah, we just gonna have to put a really strongly
worded sorry.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
I didn't know why did you make me say those?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Because we thought it'd be funny if you them, And
then he said, like, do your homework. But now we
were pretty much from the start not going to yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
And also you nailed the cadence.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Oh, you gotta have the cadence.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
You can't just read the seven words in some sort.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Of like you have to Danny kay it up a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
That's true. Well, this this has been illuminating, and I
like that we're ending on a question. We're and the
thing about this story is that it's not over now.
This conversation, this conflict, this controversy continues of far past
the fifties and the late forties into the future, into
(21:35):
the new millennium.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
But that's kind of what I was saying at the
top of the show, where it's like, you know, comedy
and this kind of thing that you that you know,
has this the guist of like, oh, this is entertainment,
this is light stuff, this is just to kind of
pass the time. Yet we're talking about it in terms
of like race, riots and the use of language to like, yeah,
physically hurt people and incite, you know, these kind of
(21:56):
crazy events that can happen and that we're seeing happen
in the news, and we're.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Talking about the freedom of thought in a very real way.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
And the interesting thing is this is the first Amendment
to the Constitution, Like think they would have no idea
back then, But how powerful an idea that the government
shall make no laws infringing on freedom of speech? Like
that is insane that that's still I just I love
those guys, crazy white slave owner. Okay, can I do
(22:28):
a little button for the whole episode please? You might
find interesting or it's not, who knows. But when I
was on Curb Your Enthusiasm, I played a character named
Dean Weinstock And the name Weinstock was named after a
comedian named Lotus Weinstock who has since passed away. But
(22:49):
Lotus Weinstock, and you can look her up, was Lenny
Bruce's last girlfriend. Full circle, Full Sir, I knew Lotus too.
I knew her. I knew I did you with her?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Holy Smooth? I know, I know, you know what This
is a This is a rare moment, I think for
my co host and I because we stopped for a
second and just stared at each other. Because that that
is a perfect ending. We've got to say that, I
think ridiculous historians listening now, If you enjoyed this episode
(23:21):
a fraction as much as we enjoyed this interview, then,
by god, we've we've done something right.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, seriously, And I think if you want more of this,
you should check out Wayne's new podcast, which goes even deeper.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Into the history of stand up.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Oh it's good.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It's really really good, and it's out there. Now.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
What are you guys about two episodes deep? It's it's
it's like a mini series, right.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
It's six episodes and we're five in so we're just
about done just about the first season, and then we
might do deep dives in the second season. But you know,
we'll see.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
We'd love to hear.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I'm also envious of a show that has a clock
on it. We just have to do the show forever
until we die.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
It's sort of a Sissophian endeavor.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh but thank you, by the way, this is going
to be a two parter because this has been so
much fun and we already had like a nice even
divide down the middle between Lenny and uh and George
and this has just been a delight.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Man.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Thank you so much for coming on, and we really
appreciate you diving deep with.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Us, Noel and Ben. I gotta say it was a
delight on the on this end as well. And I'm
just glad that the Danny K that we gave Danny
Kay his due. It was quite quite a comedian and
a big, big influence on George Garland.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And maybe, you know, maybe we can just throw a
Danny K clip somewhere in this episode so you can
hear the word clay.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
I mean he's loaded, loaded with patter songs in there,
you know.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
I mean, yeah, everything is take it boo, take it
te boo, take it ty boo.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Everything is tack it ti boo.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
Once up you'd dated to you did could be snaketty poo,
snaketty poo, snaket ty poo with the sky so blinkety blo.
It callses one to say blessed mankind, including my attack.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I'm inclined. The feeling is a jolly weller. It's absolutely so.
There you have it, folks, thank you so much for
tuning in. Thanks to our super producer Paul, Thanks to
our superproducer Casey.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Thanks to our research folk who we love dearly, Eves
Jeffcoat and Christopher Hasiotis, and most importantly, thank you Ben
and Thank you Wayne. It has been the best.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Thank you Noel, and thank you very much. Wayne. We
are not blowing smoke about the history of stand up
Go check out the show. I mean you will. Look.
I think I said it earlier. I'm officially going to
be insufferable at house parties.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You're already pretty insufferable at house parties, Ben.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
That's what you know. That's why I only party in
the yard.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
You're gonna take you to the next level.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, I'm going to go inside.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
So see you next time, folks chow.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartratedio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Fellow ridiculous historians, welcome back. We've got a classic episode
for you that we are quite excited about. We want
to tell you at the top this might not be
appropriate for all the kiddos with the sensitive ear lobes.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
It's funny.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
I was just telling you Ben Off Mike about the
recently reconnecting with the dude who hooked us up with
mister Wayne Fetterman, comedy legend, comedy expert, educator, Los Angeles
comedy scene luminary.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
And I did mention to this.
Speaker 3 (00:31):
Guy Jeff, that this was by far the filthiest episode
pair of episodes in fact, that we have ever done
here on our humble little PG thirteen show.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yes, even more so than the James Joyce episodes.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Hey, you guys think of that James Joyce?
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Thank you?
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Okay.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
It was a bunch of people like talking on the
street about their favorite James Joyce quote, and it was
a joke.
Speaker 2 (00:52):
Obviously all of them were from the Filthy party letters.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yes, and filthy farty letters have have always been a
struggle in a lot of societies. What does free speech mean?
What makes a word a dirty work?
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And what makes a fart not free speech? I think
it is. It's a kind of speech.
Speaker 1 (01:14):
It is a kinde of speech.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Well, are we or are we not? Today talking about
George Carlin and his list of dirty words and how
that kind of got under a little b in the
bonnet of the FCC. They won't let George b.
Speaker 1 (01:28):
All the way up to the US Supreme Court. And
we're learning this with our returning special guests, the legendary
Wayne Fetterman. So let's roll it, folks. Thanks for tuning in.
Let's do it. Before we get started, folks, it's important
to know that this episode contains some strong and explicit
language that may not be suitable for all the listeners.
(01:51):
So if you've got your kiddos in the crowd, this
might not be the episode for them. We thought about
censoring it, but we decided we couldn't, not in good faith,
because this episode is fundamentally about free speech and language.
We hope you enjoy. Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio.
(02:36):
Welcome back to the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you for
tuning in. If you check the headlines or the title
of your podcast before you listen to them, you will
know that this is episode two of a two part series.
If you have not heard episode one, please don't delay,
click pause, go listen to episode one. You'll want to
(02:56):
catch up. Hi, I'm ben.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
Hey, it's me. No, my microphonic glory.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
You sound wonderful.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Man again, it's my dulcet tones.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Dulcet tones. Yeah. So we had, as we said, a
little bit of a technical difficulty in the first episode.
Speaker 3 (03:09):
Yeah, hopefully you could hear me bleeding into another mic,
but it's just not as high fidelity as this is.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Listen to me leaning into the mic.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Well done. So we are of course always accompanied by
a super producer to help us save the show. Today
that is our guest super producer, Paul Decant. However, we
still hold a very special place in our hearts for
our super producer, Casey Pigri, and a glint in our
(03:37):
eye and a swing in our step.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
And we are also joined today by our incredible guest
Wayne Fetterman, who had some incredible things to say about
the history of stand up the storied careers of Lenny
Bruce and today specifically George Carlin.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
And without further ado, let's get the show on the road.
Speaker 4 (03:59):
This is this is incredible. I am still like It's amazing.
This all happened when I was a kid, so it's
just it was just great. George Carlin again, who was,
you know, a beneficiary of Lenny Bruce's expanding expansion of language,
and there was a number of comedians like it allowed
Red Fox and Richard Pryor to speak in their street
(04:22):
vernacular without getting arrested, you know, just like, I don't know,
this is the way I talk on the corner when
I'm making people laugh. I think I can bring this
on stage. But Carlin was like, I don't know what
indecent or means exactly, So I'm going to come up
with a list of words you can never say on television,
(04:44):
right and those words I'm gonna say right now. This
is in order. It's shit, piss, fuck, hunt, cocksucker, motherfucker,
and tits. So that is that was the original bit
of his. And he later was like, it's weird that
I put motherfucker in there because I already said fuck earlier,
which is a version of it. But he just liked
(05:04):
the rhythm of it, and I just need to say
this because it's very important to the whole story. George
Carlin didn't want to be a comedian, George Carlin wanted
to be a famous actor, movie star, and his idol
was a guy named Danny Kay. And Danny Kay was
known for these very twisty songs and speeches where he
(05:26):
would have high level of verbal acuity.
Speaker 1 (05:29):
Yeah, yeah, Just to interject real quick, I'm so glad
you mentioned Danny k Wayne because ahead he is one
of the actors I loved growing up, especially in the
original version of Walter Mitty, so or totally familiar with
that turn of phrase. So that that was Carlin's sort
of north star.
Speaker 4 (05:47):
For a while, it was his north star until he
realized that he hated acting for kind of the reasons
that we spoke about earlier. That he was just he
didn't like authority, you know, like if there's a director
on the sad time him to stand here and say this,
he's not gonna like that. He didn't realize it at
the time. He was like, Oh, I'd rather just write
(06:08):
and say my own stuff, you know, and be completely
free of Even when he hosted Saturday Night Live, he
said to Lord Michael's, I don't want to be an
they sketches, I don't want to rehearse these things can
I just do my comedy and you know, and bring
my brain and my mouth and that'll be good. That'll
be good. And he's the first host of the first
Saturday Night Live in you know whatever nineteen seventy five.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
I believe.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
So.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
Anyway, so that's that ended his Danny cadream. But this bit,
the shit piss, fuck, hunt, cocksucker, motherfucker and tits has
a certain Gilbert and Sullivan rhythm to it that he loved,
and that was part of the bit. That's what made
that as well as these words. So anyway, he did
(06:52):
this bit on an album called Class Clown, came out
in nineteen seventy two. The next year he does another
album called Occupation Fool, and he expands on it and
he calls it the filthy words. This is what happens.
There's a public radio station or excuse me, not public
at PACIFICA. What is that? How would you describe PACIFICA
(07:12):
that network college?
Speaker 1 (07:14):
Yeah. Yeah, they're certainly not like a top forty like right,
They're kind of alternative for their day, you know.
Speaker 4 (07:19):
Right, progress I would say, progressive radio station. There we
go in New York again, in New York, you know,
the vanguard of progressivism WBAI, and they're doing a whole
thing about just language and the hypocrisy of language, and
where's this thing? And so they play filthy Words, which
is kind of an expanse. He talks about shit a lot,
shit faced, what is a you know, shit kicker and
(07:42):
all of that. Some guy named I came John Douglas.
I just I don't remember that, but I wrote it down.
He hears it in his car with his fifteen year
old son. Again, we're going to go back to youth,
remember that statute youth and others, And he called this
is in the middle of the afternoon. They play it
and WBAI says, look, this might be offensive, but I
(08:05):
just he's just talking about words. He's just using words
to talk about words and our language. So he caused
the FCC lodge is a complaint. The FCC says, you're
going to get a mark on your record. I think
some people said it was one hundred dollars fine, other
people said no, I'm not sure. And basically WBAI PACIFICA
(08:26):
Radio says I'm going to sue the FCC and say
this is unconstitutional because of the First Amendment. For playing this.
George Carlin Bitt on the air at two o'clock on
a Tuesday afternoon in nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 1 (08:39):
Any questions, I think we're with you so far, but
this sounds like sounds like it's about to get quickly
out of control.
Speaker 6 (08:46):
Right.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
Guess what. The US Court of Appeals in Washington, DC.
You may be familiar with that court. Brett Kavanaugh was
just on that court. Merrik Garland is on that court
that's considered the highest up to the right below the
Supreme Court, the penultimate court. Right, Yeah, they agree with PACIFICA.
They were like, yeah, this is this is too broad
(09:07):
a definition what's indecent or obscene? And we're going to
strike down this fine or this mark on your record.
So guess what. They bring it to the Supreme Court,
and in a five to four decision, this is George Carlin,
a ninth grade dropout, having his words read in the
(09:28):
Supreme Court. Wow about whether they think these words are
indecent or obscene or what the difference between indecent or
obscene is.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
And guess what.
Speaker 4 (09:39):
The Court, in a very narrow five to four decisions
says that during the daytime hours, the FCC does have
the right to say you can't play anything that would
be considered obscene or indecent, but after ten.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
O'clock you can't. Yeah, I think the term is safe harbor,
I believe is the term they are. Yes, that is right.
Speaker 4 (09:57):
I love the research you guys are doing. So that's
kind of what I happened. And I just carl into
the day he died. He said he always had a
perverse pride in the fact that somewhere in Supreme Court
like case law as a precedent that his stupid routine
he did on an album called you know class, excuse me,
(10:19):
occupation fool is part of the history, the legal history
of the United States.
Speaker 3 (10:25):
Well, let's hear a quick moment of Carlin himself talking
about how he feels about words in some of this
love it.
Speaker 6 (10:34):
There is absolutely nothing wrong with any of those words
in and of themselves. They're only words. It's the context
that counts.
Speaker 1 (10:44):
It's the user.
Speaker 6 (10:45):
It's the intention behind the words that makes them good
or bad. The words are completely neutral. The words are innocent.
I get tired of people talking about bad words and
bad language.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Bullshit.
Speaker 6 (10:55):
It's the context that makes them good or bad, but
context that makes them good.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
There we do also want to mention we would be
remiss if we skipped this part. Yeah, not only not
only is Carlin's or excerpts of Carlin's performance and his
writing part of Supreme Court case law, but he was
quoted alongside Shakespeare and passages from the Bible, I think
(11:22):
the Bible. In the Bible, they mentioned the line. They
were like, oh, is this motherfucker stuff so bad? Because
the Bible says he who pisseth against the wall, So
where's the line? And then they also mentioned Shakespeare saying
pissing conduits. So this became an argument and started as
this again sort of hypocritical argument about decency in the
(11:45):
hearts and minds of the innocent and unspoiled, but it
quickly became a much more I think, a much more
intelligent argument about the role of language and literature. And
you know what, good on Carlin. Yeah, earned it, no doubt.
Speaker 3 (12:01):
And I'm still deciding whether or not we can even
release this episode fully uncensored. This is a family show
technically just FYI, but I think this is valuable to
the point of like, you can't censor it, and it almost.
Speaker 1 (12:14):
Do is it would be hypocritical of us.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
It would be hilariously hypocritical.
Speaker 4 (12:19):
This is like we're caught in a loop here. We
are a lot to talk about these words. Now we're
going to be setser. No, it's true because Carlin couldn't
say these words when he did The Tonight Shoe or
talk about it that way. But when he did Chris
Rock's HBO Joe, he was able to say the words.
(12:43):
So it is interesting. I mean, it's still you wouldn't
want to say these words in front of a kid.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
I guess right.
Speaker 1 (12:49):
It depends on the kid. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
Yeah, kids have really tough, tough constitutions.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
My nine year old, who's actually here right now, has
been like giving us the devil horns this whole time.
Speaker 2 (12:57):
Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh man, I don't even know
where do we go from here? So yeah, what's next?
Speaker 4 (13:03):
Well, the Supreme Court case was in nineteen seventy eight,
but really what happened in nineteen seventy five changed everything,
and that's when HBO started doing these hour specials. They
were called eventually called on Location and the first one
was done by Robert Klein at a school in the Northeast,
and he's a very clean comedian, but even in that
specially goes, all right, I have total freedom to say anything.
Speaker 1 (13:27):
Chit.
Speaker 4 (13:27):
You know, he just said, just to say the words.
But then the next in nineteen seventy seven, Carlin does
and if you can find this, this would be amazing.
His first of fourteen HBO specials. And before the special begins,
they have a newscaster talking about that this there's gonna
be some language on here that you're not used to
(13:49):
hearing on television. And then this gets even crazier. In
the middle of an HBO special, they stopped the special
and run a disclaimer on with the screen saying, the
next portion of this comedy act will contain language that
might be unsuitable for children, please, and then cuts back
to Carlin at usc just to bring it all full
(14:11):
circle at Beauvart Auditorium and then talks about you know,
these this language and these words, and he sort of
became famous for this in a way where the language
and the arrests of Lenny Bruce sort of destroyed Lenny
Bruce in a way. It did make him famous, but
he became so consumed with it, and if you really
(14:33):
listen to his act at the end, a lot of
times he would just read court transcripts. Was his act.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
Wow, he was obsessed?
Speaker 4 (14:40):
Huh yes, yes, very much so. And you know, I
don't know how much of the drugs were making them
paranoid or whatever, but it's like, it's very it's it's
really sad to listen to him just go on and
on about it. And in a way, it elevated Carlin's career.
So in a short period of time from let's say
sixty five, I guess seventy fives, like in those ten
(15:02):
years have started to change. And then once we got
those HBO specials, suddenly there's Red Fox doing an HBO
special where you know, he's like, I don't want to
repeat the language, but it's you know, his graphic adult entertainment.
So and that continues to this day. Although I will
say this, I do feel like there's a different kind
of censorship going on now in comedy a little bit.
(15:27):
And Carlin talked about it at the end that he
wouldn't play colleges, and I know Seinfeld won't and I
know Chris Rock because people are so sensitive about hearing
something that might be offensive, like offensive is the new
and decent in our society. Again, no one's gonna get arrested,
but you might get shamed or lose a job because
of it.
Speaker 1 (15:46):
So what would be an example of that?
Speaker 3 (15:48):
What do you mean an example Seinfeld bits or like
somebody being you know, I mean, I can think of
one off the top. And this is a really extreme
example by that guy Milo Yanopolis, who is a alt
right kind of looty tune like you can, you can
disagree with what he has to say, but technically, you know,
you would like to have him have the right to
say it.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
But he's also not doing comedy.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
No, he's not doing comedy, but.
Speaker 3 (16:13):
Doing comedy, but he was he was banned from all
these college campuses.
Speaker 2 (16:16):
And this is not me saying good on my law.
Speaker 3 (16:18):
I'm just saying we're talking about the First Amendment, and
there are lines between like, you know, being indecent and
and uh, you know, being a supporter of violence. So
the whole deal with like indecency is like or freedom
of speech is like you can say what you want
as long as you're not actively hurting something.
Speaker 1 (16:33):
But freedom of speech is also not freedom from consequences.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
No, that's also true.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
But I'm just wondering, like this whole PC police thing,
I think that's why I brought up this extreme example,
because he is an extreme example of not being PC.
And I don't think this is exclusively a discussion about comedy.
This is about speech.
Speaker 4 (16:49):
So I'm just yes, it is right, Yes it is
and I look, I agree, I look, I'm listening very
carefully to what you're saying, and I agree with you,
and I don't. I'm not that familiar with Milo's stuff
other than being its in his fan club, but I
know a lot. No, but I do think it's interesting
that Carlin and Seinfeld and Chris Rock won't play colleges
(17:11):
because of how offensive might some people might find what they're.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
Saying, which is strange.
Speaker 4 (17:18):
It's not strange because you can really get I don't
want to use the word bullied, but you can really
get publicly shamed online in a big way if you know,
if people think what you're saying is offensive. And again,
I you know, this doesn't affect me personally, but as
a somebody who's like interested in the history of comedy,
I feel like the walls are narrowing, as opposed to
(17:41):
for so long in my life they just kept broadening.
And it used to be like if you made fun
of Catholics or something like that, and they get upset.
You're like, well f them if they can't take a joke.
But that doesn't exist anymore for some people who feel
like you can't make fun of a marginalized community. That's
a euphemism. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.
So it's like any any of that. So it's I know,
(18:04):
this is off the track a little bit.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
I don't even know if you want to not at all,
not at all, not at all.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
But I do think it is interesting that we've become
we've sort of shrunk back to a much more like
be careful, walking on eggshells comedy around certain subjects that
didn't exist when I was a kid. And I know
Carlin said something phenomenal about it. He said that political
correctness is and I'm paraphrasing here and sipid because it
(18:32):
comes under the guise of tolerance. Is like, that's you're
under the guys of hey, we're just trying to make
it all better for everyone. But basically what you're doing,
you're just saying you can't say.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
That, right.
Speaker 1 (18:44):
He hated that it's the opposite of comedy, right, it's
the opposite of what stand up.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
Comedy, the opposite of free speech. Yeah, more importantly, Yeah,
but he knew, you know, it was interesting that he
had that that side. He saw it coming, and he
really railed against it in a big way.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Do you see this trend? You know, if we've walked
through some of the histories, so let's let's walk toward
the future. Do you see this trend escalating or do
you think it's just another cyclical thing that will fall away.
I guess what I'm asking is, do we have some
more Supreme Court cases in the future if we had
to guess that.
Speaker 4 (19:20):
Would I don't think so, because I don't think it's
about the I don't think any government is going in
I don't to tell you the truth, I don't know.
It all depends on hate speech, is basically. What it
comes down to is whether you think hate speech is
something that should exist or that is completely protected by
the First Amendment. So and you know, I know you're
(19:43):
not allowed to incite somebody, Okay, these words are so
you know, amorphous or but I know you're not allowed
to do that. So so I don't think this is
this is more about you know, vigilante vigilanteism in each control,
you know, in the same way Catholics used to do
it in the you know, in the forties.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
It's such a slippery slope to because what about like
things like dog whistle politics, where you have these uh,
potentially racist speakers that aren't outright saying exactly, kill kill
this group of people or hurt this group of people,
but they're using these kind of coded words that speak
to their base or what have you, and then that's interpreted.
But you know, from a legal standpoint, you can't say, oh,
(20:32):
he said to do this, because it's all in the subtext.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Again, what is insights?
Speaker 3 (20:36):
Yeah, and it's it's you know, that's the whole thought
police thing where it's like, once you start banning words
like Carlin's words, you potentially could ban any word.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
So it's dangerous territory. But it's also like, where does
that leave us?
Speaker 1 (20:48):
I strongly feel like we should not bleep this episode.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
Yeah, we just gonna have to put a really strongly
worded sorry.
Speaker 4 (20:55):
I didn't know why did you make me say those?
Speaker 3 (20:58):
Because we thought it'd be funny if you them, And
then he said, like, do your homework. But now we
were pretty much from the start not going to yeah.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
And also you nailed the cadence.
Speaker 2 (21:06):
Oh, you gotta have the cadence.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
You can't just read the seven words in some sort.
Speaker 4 (21:10):
Of like you have to Danny kay it up a
little bit.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
That's true. Well, this this has been illuminating, and I
like that we're ending on a question. We're and the
thing about this story is that it's not over now.
This conversation, this conflict, this controversy continues of far past
the fifties and the late forties into the future, into
(21:35):
the new millennium.
Speaker 3 (21:36):
But that's kind of what I was saying at the
top of the show, where it's like, you know, comedy
and this kind of thing that you that you know,
has this the guist of like, oh, this is entertainment,
this is light stuff, this is just to kind of
pass the time. Yet we're talking about it in terms
of like race, riots and the use of language to like, yeah,
physically hurt people and incite, you know, these kind of
(21:56):
crazy events that can happen and that we're seeing happen
in the news, and we're.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Talking about the freedom of thought in a very real way.
Speaker 4 (22:04):
And the interesting thing is this is the first Amendment
to the Constitution, Like think they would have no idea
back then, But how powerful an idea that the government
shall make no laws infringing on freedom of speech? Like
that is insane that that's still I just I love
those guys, crazy white slave owner. Okay, can I do
(22:28):
a little button for the whole episode please? You might
find interesting or it's not, who knows. But when I
was on Curb Your Enthusiasm, I played a character named
Dean Weinstock And the name Weinstock was named after a
comedian named Lotus Weinstock who has since passed away. But
(22:49):
Lotus Weinstock, and you can look her up, was Lenny
Bruce's last girlfriend. Full circle, Full Sir, I knew Lotus too.
I knew her. I knew I did you with her?
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Holy Smooth? I know, I know, you know what This
is a This is a rare moment, I think for
my co host and I because we stopped for a
second and just stared at each other. Because that that
is a perfect ending. We've got to say that, I
think ridiculous historians listening now, If you enjoyed this episode
(23:21):
a fraction as much as we enjoyed this interview, then,
by god, we've we've done something right.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, seriously, And I think if you want more of this,
you should check out Wayne's new podcast, which goes even deeper.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Into the history of stand up.
Speaker 1 (23:35):
Oh it's good.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
It's really really good, and it's out there. Now.
Speaker 3 (23:38):
What are you guys about two episodes deep? It's it's
it's like a mini series, right.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
It's six episodes and we're five in so we're just
about done just about the first season, and then we
might do deep dives in the second season. But you know,
we'll see.
Speaker 2 (23:49):
That's awesome.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
We'd love to hear.
Speaker 3 (23:51):
I'm also envious of a show that has a clock
on it. We just have to do the show forever
until we die.
Speaker 1 (23:55):
It's sort of a Sissophian endeavor.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
Oh but thank you, by the way, this is going
to be a two parter because this has been so
much fun and we already had like a nice even
divide down the middle between Lenny and uh and George
and this has just been a delight.
Speaker 2 (24:09):
Man.
Speaker 3 (24:09):
Thank you so much for coming on, and we really
appreciate you diving deep with.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
Us, Noel and Ben. I gotta say it was a
delight on the on this end as well. And I'm
just glad that the Danny K that we gave Danny
Kay his due. It was quite quite a comedian and
a big, big influence on George Garland.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
And maybe, you know, maybe we can just throw a
Danny K clip somewhere in this episode so you can
hear the word clay.
Speaker 4 (24:35):
I mean he's loaded, loaded with patter songs in there,
you know.
Speaker 5 (24:38):
I mean, yeah, everything is take it boo, take it
te boo, take it ty boo.
Speaker 1 (24:46):
Everything is tack it ti boo.
Speaker 5 (24:47):
Once up you'd dated to you did could be snaketty poo,
snaketty poo, snaket ty poo with the sky so blinkety blo.
It callses one to say blessed mankind, including my attack.
Speaker 1 (25:00):
I'm inclined. The feeling is a jolly weller. It's absolutely so.
There you have it, folks, thank you so much for
tuning in. Thanks to our super producer Paul, Thanks to
our superproducer Casey.
Speaker 2 (25:13):
And thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme.
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Thanks to our research folk who we love dearly, Eves
Jeffcoat and Christopher Hasiotis, and most importantly, thank you Ben
and Thank you Wayne. It has been the best.
Speaker 1 (25:24):
Thank you Noel, and thank you very much. Wayne. We
are not blowing smoke about the history of stand up
Go check out the show. I mean you will. Look.
I think I said it earlier. I'm officially going to
be insufferable at house parties.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
You're already pretty insufferable at house parties, Ben.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
That's what you know. That's why I only party in
the yard.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
You're gonna take you to the next level.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
Yeah, I'm going to go inside.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
So see you next time, folks chow.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartratedio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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