April 8, 2025 • 57 mins
When His Serene Highness Gregor the First, Sovereign Prince of the State of Poyais and its Dependencies, and Cacique of the Poyer nation visited London, he made a huge impression. Hundreds of people jumped at the chance to buy land in his remote, Central American paradise. There was only one problem -- the Cacique, whose real name was Gregor Macgregor, made the entire nation up out of thin air in one of history's largest, most audacious (and most ridiculous) scams. This is the Classic episode so ridiculous we made a t-shirt out of it.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, guys, have you ever wanted to start your own country?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Yeah, sure, the thought has crossed my mind. I just
if for no other reason than to have my face
on some currency.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
What do you, frank, I want to My dream would
be able to buy all of the islands in the
Pacific Ocean that the United States has basically blown up
with nukes.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Okay, that's a lot to unpack. All right, walk us
through it. Start with two vlu Make sure you get
the vanuatu. Make sure you go through. Are you gonna
do Micronesia as a unit or are you gonna move through
all the archipelago.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
We'll figure that out as we go.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
We'll figure that out as we go. And that is
a classic Gregor McGregor real name, that's a that's a
classic line from him. Uh Connor McGregor is different from
Gregor McGregor, that's right.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Also known as His Serene Highness Gregor the first Sovereign
Prince of the State of Poiis Poiis and its dependencies,
as well as the Psachik of the Poier Nation. This
is about the time he visited London and made quite
the impression.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, so much so that we made a t shirt
specifically for this episode. There's only one problem. When this
guy visits London and sells so many people on his ideas,
turns out he made up the nation.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So let's hear all about Gregor McGregor and that time
he invented a country and convinced people to invest in it.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show,
(02:15):
Ridiculous Historians. Have you ever heard of a barracuda also
known as a bilker, a bunco, a hustler, a swindler,
a crook, or, perhaps most familiar, a con man. Barracuda
I know, isn't that cool? One of those that is
a synonym for a con artist. You've never heard this before,
Ben Well, neither have I? NOL have you? Super producer
(02:40):
Casey Pegram.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
That is not a use of je I'm familiar with.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Let's bring it back. I think we should welcome to
the show. This is Ridiculous History, and I've got to say, Noel,
you know how sometimes I don't know if this happens
to you. Sometimes when I'm doing research, I'll fall into
a tangential rabbit hole. Course, so in our time researching
this episode, I fell into a rabbit hole of con
(03:07):
artist culture and synonyms clearly, and grifters, Oh, we should
have said grifter. That's my favorite, and all the different
slang terms attributed to this, this subculture, this industry, and
today's show does ultimately concern what I have to say
is an objectively impressive grift.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, And an objectively impressive grift from an objectively detestable
human person.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Oh yeah, Oh, terrible garbage train of a person, for sure,
And often described as an adventurer, which seems like a
cool job title, but we'll find, in his case is
maybe a little more generous than he deserves. But Noel,
could you introduce us to this fellow Gregor McGregor.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Gregor McGregor sounds made up the way that you hear
his his other name.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, he sort of.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
He once was a rosy cheeked young lad from the
Scottish Highlands. He came from fighting stock, as this fantastic
article from History Today by Victor Allen points out. You see,
his grandfather was a well known klansman. That's not a
kuk kuklusklansman, a klansman in the Scottish tradition whose name
(04:18):
in Gaelic was Gregor the Beautiful and he was a
member of something called the Black Watch and also kind
of became an important figure in a region called Inverdean
in Bretelbane, and he became something called a laird, which
I imagine to be a lord, right right.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And those terms are also not made up. We have
to point out that this Gregor the Beautiful thing was
probably not meant sarcastically like little job or something. No,
it was a super ugly dude.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
No.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
I think he was probably a bit of a hunk
because his grandson Gregor and all the portraits that we've
been able to find of him, a pretty dashing figure.
Real smoke show, Yes, absolutely, we welcome to the Wow.
Wow man, you got some feels about greg Oh?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
No, I just wanted an excuse to use this wonderful
phrase that John Oliver used recently.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Oh what a smoke show or a snack?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Absolute snack, that's good described it and I thought, Wow,
John Oliver, that's pretty racy.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
And I'll tell you one thing that's very snackable about
him are his delicious mutton chops, because they are a
thing of beauty. My friend. So he had a career
in a military career, pretty storied military career, sure didn'ty?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, yeah, he had years and years of service in
the British Army. And let's talk a little bit about
how he got wrapped up in all these military shenanigans
and escapades. McGregor used to joined the British Army at sixteen,
which was that you have to be at least sixteen
(05:55):
to join the army at this time. He joined in
April eighteen oh three. Oh wait, we have to go back,
did we say when he was born December seventeen eighty six?
Crucial crucial date, crucial deep crucial date, the twenty fourth
of December in fact. Anyhow, fast forwardy sixteen April of
eighteen oh three. He signs up for the British Army.
(06:15):
His family had purchased a commission for him to serve
as an ensign in the fifty seventh West Middlesex Regiment
of Foot.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
We purchased a commission for him, like bought his way
into a cushy military job.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Bought his way to officer status. So it cost around
four hundred and fifty pounds. Interesting because his family is
pretty well off. Sure, he's got he's a laired Yeah,
he's got a landed grandfather. Right, So when he enters
the military. Funny story, At the same time, something called
(06:50):
the Napoleonic Wars is occurring in Europe.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I feel as though we've heard of this before.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I think so. I think so. Longtime listeners may may
have a vague image of bunnies hopping into their heads.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, and steamy fanfic involving our born Napoleon and Alexander bizarre.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeaesha, Yes, it was bizarre, to say the least worth it. Oh,
thank you. I'll be here for the rest of the show.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Good. I need you, I need you, Ben, I need you.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Are you gonna stay for the rest of this show too?
We'll see Okay, great, we'll play it by ear And
that's what McGregor was doing.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Thanks. So he does serve in the military, and at
this time he is actually doing the work. In February
of eighteen oh four, less than a year into his training,
he is promoted without purchasing a commission, so he earns
(07:45):
the rank of lieutenant. And this is important because that
kind of advancement usually takes much longer, like three years.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yeah, and what was he like in his twenties, he would.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Still not be twenty. He would be around like maybe
just about to turn eighteen.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
This is in eighteen four four, that's right.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
And as he is serving the British Army, he is
still networking with people. He meets the daughter of a
Royal Navy admiral named Maria Bowater, and she had a
pretty hefty.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Dowry, didn't he didn't he wife her up?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
He did?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
He did. He wifed her up. He also bought the
rank of captain for about nine hundred pounds and he
could have waited to get the promotion to earn it,
but that would have taken seven years. And he was
a man on a mission.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Got palms being greased in this situation, aren't there? Ben?
And I think we're already seeing some foreshadowing of our
boy Gregor McGregor's slippery nature.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
That's right, Nol. And we see his extroverted nature go
international pretty soon when he is in his twenties. He
doesn't just stay in your trope, you see, he is interested,
intrigued by the colonial revolts against Spanish rule in Latin America,
particularly Venezuela.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Venezuela and he kind of joins forces or offers his
services to I guess this guy, Simon Bolivar bar right,
who is like the head or the leader of this
kind of rebellion. His nickname was the Liberator. In fact,
earned that nickname by liberating what is now the republics
(09:34):
of Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Panama and Bolivia, made them
sovereign states and freed them from Spanish rule. And this
is all in the midst of that hub ub there, right, yes, yeah, absolutely,
So how does a how does a young scotsman throw
his hat in the ring to a revolt like this?
(09:54):
I guess they needed all the help they can get,
or what.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
They need all the help we could get. Also, we
should point out that in December of eighteen eleven, Maria
McGregor had passed away, so he is now no longer
a married man. When he arrives in Venezuela, it's not
long after an earthquake has destroyed a lot of the city.
(10:19):
This is in April of eighteen twelve. Some of the
country was under control of advancing royalist armies. The revolutionary
government was starting to collapse on itself and break into
different factions. McGregor didn't want to talk about his titles
(10:41):
in his European life. He wanted to seem pretty legit
to the Republicans, so he kept calling himself Sir Gregor,
and then he started claiming he was a Knight of
the Portuguese Order of Christ, and then he offered his
services to Venezuelan revolutionaries. The first one he offered his
(11:04):
service to was a guy named Francisco de Miranda, and
Francisco ended up being a pretty good person for MacGregor
to know. We'll see throughout this that McGregor uses people
and throws them away. He had promoted McGregor eventually to
brigadier general in eighteen.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Twelve, but he also this guy Miranda was really fascinated
by the idea of kind of having a new Incan
empire in South America, like where the streets would be
paved with gold and the trees would be overflowing with
ripe fruit and it would be just this like kind
of Shangri La or Eden type paradise, right, And this
(11:41):
was a notion that I think he started implanting in
McGregor's head that will kind of come out in this
story very very soon.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, yeah, good call, good call. So eventually things go
wrong for Francisco de Miranda, who apparently had also just
a side note here, been knocking boots with Catherine the Great?
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Did you see that just occasionally?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I think just occasionally. They didn't want to put a
label on it, you know what I mean, very forward thinking,
It was complicated. It was a time of revolution. So unfortunately,
Francisco da Moranda had been captured by Spanish forces and
he had been shipped off to prison, where he spent
four years chained to a wall. McGregor. However, despite losing
(12:33):
his patron at this point or his main connection with
the military structure, he continues on his journey and he
makes a name for himself. People say, hey, have you
guys seen how brave that guy is? Have you seen
what a great leader he is? Or more likely, I
held my hand in front of the mic like I'm whispering.
(12:53):
I want I want everyone to know that I did that.
Even though you can't see, he's still doing it. I'm
still doing it, still doing I'm feeling feeling this monol
because yeah, they said he's courageous, and they said he
was a great leader, and.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Look at those chops.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Look at those beautiful, gorgeous mutton chops, right, Or did
he just make up stories wherein he looked courageous and
looked like a good leader. Yeah, but that's the thing though,
in and around this time, and then it'll become even
more apparent once our boy kind of makes the trip
back to his home country.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
In London, things were not so good. People wanted heroes.
They wanted to believe these kinds of stories. They wanted
to look up to someone like this guy and be
able to say, hey, look at that shining example of
a man with those delightful mutton chops. I want to
follow that guy.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
That's really good context to put on this. And I
think you're absolutely correct. People need a hero, right, And
whether he is a real hero or not, it's debatable.
We'll leave that decision to you, folks, regardless. He rose
from the position of staff colonel to the general of
(14:01):
division in the Army of Venezuela and New Grenada when
he was only thirty years old and he was kicking
keisters and taking names. He fought in a ton of
battles and still leagued up with this Venezuelan revolutionary right right,
and he became known for these epic campaigns and his
(14:24):
role in these pivotal, decisive battles attracts national attention. And
Simon Boulevar, who we mentioned just a second ago, also
comes in person to award McGregor these various accolades for
his actions of wartime.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Yeah, like serious accolades. He was awarded the insignia of
the Order of the Libertatores, which was the name of
the militaristic group that Boulevar headed up. And McGregor was
more than ready and willing to capitalize on these acts galades,
you know, in order to earn some serious coin.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yes. Yeah, he got married again to a relative of
the Supreme Commander Boulevar, and he also found that peace
was sort of a letdown to him, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Yeah, No, I mean not only that, it's just like
in peace, there's there's no money to be made.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And that's what he was after, where's the next grift?
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Yeah, exactly, I mean, because I don't know, it's weird
he's up to now he does. He certainly is part
of some conflicts that make him seem like you could
view him as some kind of like military genius or
you know, some kind of like war hero. But it
does feel like he was rising in the ranks all
the while, sometimes using payoffs and sometimes you know, throwing
(15:52):
people under the bus and using people for their influence.
But it all seemed pretty self serving. But I don't know,
maybe that's just politics.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, maybe it is. Because he continued fighting his
own kind of private war. And so after his time
in Venezuela, where he finds peace, anti climactic and let's
be honest, not all that profitable, he leads a series
of independent military campaigns in the Caribbean, and History dot
(16:20):
Com has a great has a great article on this
by Evan Andrews. But I won't want to read the
title yet because you don't want to spoil the story.
He did something pretty interesting. He just arbitrarily would promote
the people who worked for him, the different freebooters that
he was hiring and mercenaries. I'm like, oh, I like
(16:40):
the cut of your jib. You're a lieutenant.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Now I'm my crew, right.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And his big tent campaign in this period of his
life was the brief capture of Florida's Amelia Island from
the Spanish. He also was not the most impressive military commander.
At least by this point he was known to immediately
(17:06):
desert his army.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
There you go, here's some chinks in the armor, Ben
give it. He was because he cultivated his image of
himself and then clearly that was more important than actually being,
you know, a good guy or an effective leader.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's the truth. That's what we were
alluding to earlier when we talked about his courage and
his leadership. It turns out that he as long as
everything was going fine for his army, he was completely
on board and one hundred percent down for the cause. However,
if things appeared to go south, sideways or pear shaped,
as they say in the UK, he would ghost. But
(17:42):
he still kept his knack for self promotion and deception.
So the accounts he would tell of various military conflicts
differed from the accounts everybody else would tell, and he
became known, at least in this area of the world.
It's very important detail as a bit of a blustering braggart,
(18:05):
but still a charmer, just very self aggrandizing and a
guy who thought he was the smartest person in the
room and was convinced that he could sell anyone on anything.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Yeah, and as we're gonna find out, he kind of could.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yes, should we just jump there?
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Oh, we definitely, we can jump there. In the form
of a slight lead up in that he kind of
waged what the History of Today article various two he
describes as a private war where he included in that
was that capture of that fortress that you mentioned. But
(18:46):
most importantly him and his associates, the band of Brigands.
I guess that he's sort of amassed landed on the
mainland of Nicaragua, where there is a stretch of coast
region called the Mosquito.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Coast, Yes, also known as the Mosquito Kingdom.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
M hmm.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, this is an important part here. Nowadays it's the
eastern coast of Nicaragua and Honduras. Just a little bit
of southern Honduras shares this area, but the Mosquito Coast
was generally thought of as the domain of the Mosquito
(19:27):
or Mosquito Kingdom, and they had an interesting tension in
this area between the British, the US and the countries
of Nicaragua and Honduras.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Well, not to mention the Native America, the Native people,
the Mosquito Indians, right, yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
We had a strange situation here because the Mosquito people
had their own rulers or kings, and they had a
specific name, right.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Yeah, that's right, man.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
They had some thing of a king who was called
the Cacique series of kings, Yes, series of kings.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
This is the Cacique king of the Mosquito Indians. And
this individual made a bit of a devil's bargain with
our boy McGregor.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah. And so for context, the Cacique, the kings of
this area of the Mosquito people, allowed foreigners to settle
in their lands so long as their overall sovereignty was respected.
And a lot of British merchants and Garifuno people from
Honduras took advantage of this. And one of these kings,
(20:39):
one of these Caziques, makes a deal with Gregor McGregor.
For I believe it was thirty thirty miles of land, that's.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Right, and it was on what's known as the Poias Shore.
And so with that land grant that sureley was on
the up and up this deal. Right, Surely, all the
teas were crossed and the eyes were dotted.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, I'm convinced.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Uh huh. Yeah. So, with this deal having been made,
McGregor makes his way back to England, to London in particular,
making some pretty outrageous claims.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Right yeah. So after he makes this deal in eighteen twenty,
he becomes a whole new Gregor McGregor. He is the
Prince of Poios. He's named his newfound dominion Poios. And
boy is Poios a great place. This is where we
see the inspiration he received from Miranda's vision of a
(21:40):
new Incland Empire. Popping back up again, he described this
place in very hyperbolic, fascinating, almost too good to be
truish terms.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, like stuff like flowing with milk and honey, you know,
fruit trees spilling with delicious ripe fruit, water so pure
that it would quench any thirst. I think was one
of them right then.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
And he claimed he was the Kazique or the king
slash prince of this area, and that this was an
obscure but prosperous nation, and not only was it a
hidden gem across the sea, but it was an act
now situation because you see, Londoners, you too can be
(22:27):
part of the dream. The Kazique of Poias has come
on a mission to solicit investments and to recruit potential settlers.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Right. And there's a super cool exitt from a book
by Maria Khanikhova that is on the BBC that talks
about some of the psychological principles of persuasion that Conman used,
in particular that Gregor McGregor used. Do you want to
talk through some of those.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Sure, let's round robin it. There are six. The first
is reciprocity.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Reciprocity I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine, coming from McGregor.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Hey, I'm giving you this chance of a lifetime. All
you got to do for me is give me all
your money. And then consistency of behavior, meaning that whether
it is true or a lie, I am going to
believe the same thing I did.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Yesterday, right exactly. Then we have social validation, which is
super important because it's basically like, if I'm saying to you, Ben, Ben,
you gotta do this. It's gonna make you a real,
real true scotsman, a real true man's man, a Robinson
Caruso type, you know, going out and taming the wilds.
(23:41):
And at the same time it's gonna be awesome, so
don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, and there's there's a clever thing there too, because
the social validation there is I have specifically chosen you
to be part of this.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yes, for your merits that are just on display, Ben,
I want you to be part of my new utopia.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Also, this is just between us. I like you as
a person. That's number four. You know we're we're friends,
we're buddies, we're pals. You know you're you're pal with
the Kozique of Poia.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
How cool is that? And here's a really important one.
And you see it's funny you see a mix of
these being used in everything from like offers on Facebook
and things to like ticket sales. You notice how every
time you see an ad for like concert tickets, they
always say really going quick, acting quick, get them now.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You gotta get them while they're hot, because there's just
not enough to go around me.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Because it's just such an amazing opportunity. And if you
don't do it, somebody else will, so you better hop
on it. And then finally, what do we have?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yes, finally authority. I know what I am talking about, oh,
says the grifter.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And not only that, this is my favorite part of
this whole story. Actually, McGregor actually wrote a book, yes,
under an assumed name, called Sketch of the Mosquito Shore,
including the Territory of Poios. And it was written by
a man by the name of Thomas strange Ways. Thomas Strangeways,
(25:13):
Captain Thomas Strangers.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yes, pardon me, Captain Thomas.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Exactly, but yeah, I mean everything all signs point to
this was in fact McGregor. So he was like laying
the groundwork for this grift. This is a long con man.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, and people did not have the same I guess,
I don't want to say wherewithal, but they didn't have
the same resources access to that we have today to
verify information. So Thomas strange Ways, oh, excuse me again,
Captain Thomas strange Ways just had a really interesting name,
sounded like a great well traveled adventurer, and in very
(25:52):
idyllic bucolic terms described this hitherto unknown nation of Poya.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yeah, and he described it just as we described it,
just as McGregor described it as this place, oh gold
just overflowing from the river everywhere, just everywhere, lousy with gold.
And here's the thing with that authority point of persuasion.
This makes it even better because he's saying, don't take
my word for it. Check out this guy, Captain. Strange ways,
he's been there. He wrote a book about it. Who
(26:22):
would write a book about it if it wasn't true.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, I was quite delighted to find that my tiny,
beautiful nation was the subject of a book. You seem
well read. You've surely heard of the sketches right here.
Here's a little little stud a little exhibit from the.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Preface Mosquito Shaw, including the territory of Poios, being impressed
with a thorough conviction of the immense benefit which not
only the native tribes of Mosquitia, but the neighboring countries
in general, must derive from the civilization and improvement of
one of the fairest portions of the globe. Has endeavored
(26:59):
in the following sheets to attract the attention of enlightened
Europeans to the subject, by combining the knowledge of its history,
natural productions, the best mode of culture, and et cetera,
which he acquired during a portion of his life spent
in that part of the world.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
This is was that your Matt Berry, I don't know
kind of it was it was. It was yeah, yes, no.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
But so this is this is so met up because
this is McGregor, right, writing a preface like you know
himself for Strange four Strange Ways, who is also himself.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And it's it's long preference. We know that sounded like
a long thing. But that's just an excerpt.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
It's just an exerpt. But the point is is from
the start it reads like a treatise for how awesome
this place is.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
It's like like a timeshare pamphlet or an infomercial that
purports to be a documentary. Right, And at this time
now the he's reinvented himself as the Khysique, as his
Highness Gregor. He is a fixture in London's high society.
Wealthy aristocrats set him and his wife up in a
country home. The Lord Mayor holds a banquet in his
(28:04):
honor and people start to trust him because he's charming,
and he cites all his past military achievements and you
know what, I've got to stop just for a second.
Strange Ways is just such a terrible, terrible name. It's
like Timmy mcreal name.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Well, I mean, Gregor McGregor's not great either. Yeah, but
it's real. Yeah, but that's the real one. That's just
so weird. I'm not making fun of Scottish names. I
just think any name where like the first name and
the last name are the same inherently absurd sounding to me.
But that's just my opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, there's you know, Humbert, Humbert all that sort
of stuff exactly. But even though he's Gregor McGregor, excuse me,
his highness the Khasique Gregor, he is really and genuinely
winning people over because he doesn't just come with great stories.
He doesn't just come with a book that he didn't write.
(28:57):
He also, you see, has tons and tons of official documents,
all kinds of paperwork. He has a handwritten lands grant
from the Mosquito King, which is a great band name.
He has a national flag. He has charts and maps
showing the location and border of Poios.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
I think he even had some currency from the Bank
of Poios.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yes, he has currency. I think they call it what
one hard note.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Oh, and it says at the bottom, by order of
His Highness Gregor Kazik of Poios. Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And the problem with all this one hard dollar one
hard dollar, which is a weird phrase little bit. Yeah,
but the problem with all of this documentation is that
almost all of it is entirely fabricated by him. He
has he has made up these dollars. And remember that
(29:49):
crazy fraudulent music festival called Firefest that happened last year
with the jaw rule, I think I think that's right.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
But basically what it was was the total bait and
switch where they were selling these premium packages to you know,
rabid bougie concert goers to go to this like private
island where this concert was going to be held, and
everyone showed up and they're suppose they were expecting all
these crazy accommodations and like nothing, there was nothing. It
was just trash. It was these like crappy tents. There
(30:21):
was just like you know, no sand, no wood, just
just totally filthy and absolute, you know, just complete grift.
That's what the the handful of hapless settlers who abandoned
their homes for a better life under the benevolent you know,
(30:42):
hand of the Kazique of Poyas, that's what they found.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Well, yeah, it sounds crazy, but let's let's step back
a little and see how it happened. Because he floats
a two hundred thousand pounds sterling Poya's bond in the
London money market, and then he also starts selling land
and titles. Two would be caughtists and you could get
a pretty good deal. For just eleven pounds, you could
purchase one hundred acres of Poya farmland, and if you
(31:09):
were a little more well to do, you could buy
a post as an officer in the military, the same
way the Kazique became.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, you know, paying forward, paying.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Forward, you know, in the sleaziest way possible.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
And how crazy that the value of those bonds you
mentioned just ballooned over time.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, And in September of eighteen twenty two, a
ship called the Honduras Packet set sail from London with
as as you said, a handful of people bound for Poya,
probably with their land deeds clutched in their hands. And
that first ship only took about what several dozen people.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Yeah, and there's a second one called the Kinnersley Castle,
and I believe bewe even the two there was two
hundred and fifty folks in total, and they were just
expecting paradise, you know, as as well they should have given,
you know, the salesmanship of our guy McGregor.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah. So these people who are called poyers, most of
them invested their entire life savings in this journey. As
you said. No, no, they sold their houses. Some had even
converted all their cash to hard poise dollars. Shaking my head,
I feel bad for these hapless SAPs. Yeah, it's terrible,
you know. At the same time, again, though, things were
(32:36):
not so hot in the in the world at large,
and certainly the kind of people that maybe would look
at this as an opportunity to start again. You know,
Scotland is pretty bleak, No, the weather's not great. It
felt like maybe to some this was a way to
break out of their kind of typical humdrum routine and
start a new life for what seemed like a too
(32:58):
good to pass up deal, which is an another part
of manipulative techniques of grifters is the idea there's two notions.
One is you're spurring somebody towards making a decision that
you want them to make right and also making sure
that the decision seems like something that they would be too.
It would be a fool to reject this offer because
it's just like a no brainer, right. Yeah, And it's
(33:19):
also very helpful. You know you've done well when they
feel as though it is their own idea. Hey, Cazique,
you and I are friends, right, you know what, poya
sounds so good that I would like to go. Napoleon
has just been defeated. The British economy is expanding, and
you know, I'm in a good mood. I think it's
(33:40):
a it's a time to make a change, right. And
this works very well for the Cazique at first. But
for these poor investors, the poya they were promised is
not the poya they find when they land.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Now, is that firefest situation? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Exactly. They see no farmland. They see mile after mile
of dense, nigh impenetrable jungle, and they are wondering, you know,
where is all the crystal clear water. Where is all
the abundant, rich soil we will promised? Where the heck
is this civilization you told us about.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
I here's a fantastic exert from an account of the
time that was reprinted in The Guardian recently.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah. This from the Guardian archive was in print the
twenty fifth of October eighteen twenty three by the time
that a couple of settlers had made it back.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
So here it goes. When the immigrants arrived at San Joseph,
nothing could exceed their anguish on finding where they expected
a fine flourishing town with nearly two thousand inhabitants only
two or three ruined huts. The party exerted themselves vigorously
clearing away some stunted mahogany trees from about six hundred
yards of sandy ground and erecting a number of little
(35:04):
huts and tents with blankets to protect them from the weather.
Nearly all of their provisions, however, had been wet and landing,
as they had been compelled to roll all their barrels
for a considerable distance through salt water. The sun in
the daytime was intolerably hot, and the nights were cold
with heavy rain. So what ended up happening was a
(35:25):
lot of people died. They got very sickened because the
water was not that pure, clean drinking water that was described.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It was brackish and contaminated with animal waste as well.
So in a very short amount of time, I think
twenty people died and everyone who didn't die got sick,
And along comes the real Cazique, the king of the
Mosquito Indians. He visits them to see what's going on.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Yeah, who the heck are you guys?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Right? And we have an excerpt that explains this situation
pretty well. Try to imagine the king's utter bafflement here.
He afterwards sen a letter stating that he made a
grant of thirty miles of land on the Poiish Shore
to Sir Gregor MacGregor three years ago, but that quote
(36:17):
unquote Sir Gregor, having until that time neglected to take possession,
he considered the grant as void, and that had he
then known Sir Gregor as he did now, he would
never have made the grant. He would oppose the settlement
of anyone belonging to Sir Gregor within his territory, and
prescribed as the condition of their remaining in peace, that
(36:41):
they should abjure Sir Gregor and swear allegiance to him.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
So, in other words, he became aware of what a
bastard Gregor was.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, utter bastard. And so at this stage he also
threatens some of these settlers. He says, and we'll paraphrase here,
that he could call up seven thousand natives and cut
off the entire settler community at one blow. But by
this point, and by their own emission, the settlers felt
(37:12):
themselves past fear death was killing everybody off, just as
surely as the mosquito king was threatening to do.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Bad times. Man, there's a really sad little account of
a man who was a shoemaker who was declared to
be the official shoemaker of the Princess of Poya, whoever
that was. Yeah, and he apparently got so sick that
he took his own life by shooting himself while laying
dying in a hammock.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yep, and six men tried to get to Honduras in
a canoe. They ended up being castaways, but they were
rescued by a guy named mister Bennett, who was a
Mahogany merchant and an overall stand up dude. He learned
of what was.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Happening, Thank God for mister Bennett.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, and he sent a ship to take as many
settlers as he could to a hospital in Honduras and
to fetch the rest of them on the second trip. However,
at this point the situation is still fraught with danger
because we mentioned Hondura's package right that's the first ship
(38:27):
with about fifty people. We mentioned Kennersley Castle. That's the
second ship with about two hundred people. There were two
other ships on the way. There was the Albion, which
was the third vessel to bring settlers. It was diverted
to Belize after they discovered that the previous settlers had abandoned.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
This is so Firefest, dude, This is like, I mean,
this is literally what happened with Firefest. People got trapped
on the island. Yeah, they couldn't fly out a much
bougier version of this, But I wonder if if joh Ruler,
whoever the hell was responsible for that, looked at this
story as like an inspiration.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Yeah. And the other ship the scheme was sent bringing
arms and supplies also diverted to Belize. And there also
reports that five other vessels were on the way. But
in a massive stroke of luck for these vessels, word
reached Britain that Poya was entirely made up by that time,
(39:23):
so the British Royal Navy intercepted these other five ships
and turned them back. And again this all happened because
there was such a scarcity of information and it took
forever to contact people, especially over those long distances. All
in all, McGregor's swindle here raised two hundred thousand pounds.
(39:46):
But Noel, what happened when people found out about this.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Well, they were justifiably enraged and they were thirsty for
McGregor's blood. But by this point he had already high
tailed it out of the country and posted up in France.
Or I think he ran a a a few years
more of other scams on the hapless Parisians. And by
the way, if we're going to inflation calculator, that amount
(40:12):
of money that he raised, it's it would be in
the billions of dollars.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Oh yeah, if we count France. There's a great article
from the economists called The King of Conmen that that
does the math for us here. Over his lifetime, those
bond market frauds in the in England and in France
run to the tune of one point three million And
in today's terms, how much is that coac.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
That would be three point six a billion pounds, So
that it's crazy and yeah, and so a big part
of this, I guess once he got to Paris too.
I mean, I don't know, it must have been part
of it for from the start. But this idea of
these gold mines, you know, selling these parcels of land
with the promise of these imaginary gold mines, that people
(41:06):
would just be able to dislike, stick their hands in
the water and just get get gold.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Right, lousy with gold, blowsy with gold.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
But for whatever reason in this History Today article they
conjecture that maybe Paris was a little too too hot
for McGregor and his crew. They came back to London
and thank god has little come up in s here.
They were arrested on site and imprisoned in a prison
called the Top Hill Fields.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah. We should note though that when he was in
France he was doing the exact same scheme. He didn't
even change the name of the country. I think that's
part of why he was so quickly caught, you know.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
And I think I may have spoke too soon, Ben
that come up and was maybe just the humiliation of
being arrested. But as slippery as snake as this dude was,
he was able to wriggle his way even out of
this one.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yes, that is true. He was in tott Hillfield's bridewell
for about a week before he was released without a charge.
And then immediately he starts a newer version of the
Poya scheme, and this time he calls himself Kazik of
the Republic of Poyas. He sets up a new office
(42:22):
and doesn't claim any of the diplomatic status that he
had done with the other office, and he starts acting
through proxies. He gets another company to act as brokers.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Yeah, so he basically smartened up his grift a little bit, right,
and then separated himself from it someway.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right, and he started selling other versions of this. By
the time it hit eighteen twenty eight, he was selling
certificates entitling holders to land in Poyas proper at five
shillings per acre. Yeah. He goes on publishing these various
(43:02):
documents papers power at this time.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Oh yeah, so he he published if it's printed, yeah,
it must be true.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Right, why would you go to the trouble? He publishes
a constitution for a smaller republic headed by himself as president.
He eventually, despite all his efforts, has a bit of
a come to Jesus moment, as they would call it
in the American South, and he understands that the Poya
Grift has finally done it. Everybody knows, yes, every course
(43:31):
is dead.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Yeah, because he's burned through all his money. At this point,
he's got no friends left to speak of, and so
he goes back to the last place where he felt beloved,
which was old Venezuela, where he still had some connects.
He didn't screw anybody over there, exactly right, that I
can think of. So he went back and actually petitioned
(43:52):
the government to give him citizenship and restore his military rank.
So he ended his life living in Venezuela as a
general and got a government pension.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, back pay as well and pension. And that's primarily
because the Defense Minister had served a longside McGregor in
an expedition in eighteen sixteen and said, you know what,
this guy is a war hero. And this worked. The
part of today's Honduras that was called Poya remains undeveloped today.
(44:29):
There are no villages, no abundant farmland, no gold mines
that anyone knows about. But McGregor himself, Old Gregor MacGregor
passed away a freeman on December fourth, eighteen forty five.
One of the greatest grifters ever lived, just an utter sleeve.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
Back you gotta admire the stones on this guy though, Man,
I mean, good lord, just to keep it rolling like
this for so long.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, but hopefully a lesson to be learned. And we
hope that you enjoyed this episode as well. Thanks so
much forgiving us listen. Enjoyed.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
That's it. It's nothing. It's another one of these where yes,
it's ridiculous, but god, this guy puts some people through
the ringer, but I enjoyed learning about it.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah, well, tell us what you think and.
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Really annoying.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
It's a gentleman.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Jonathan Strickland, the.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Quizt Speaking of time, it's been a nice little stretch
of time since we've had since you've darkened our studio.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Door operative word being a nice stretch.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
You know. I heard so many complaints about my absence
that I could not allow it to continue one breath longer.
And so the most cringe worthy segmented all the podcasting has.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
I'm certainly cringing.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
You're also on a T shirt. It has gone too far.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
It's a top seller. So this is this is.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Our non consensually recurring segment wherein you the Quiztor, also
known as Jonathan Strickland.
Speaker 4 (46:18):
Just kind of materializes.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Ye want, right when we think we're going to end
the show to test our knowledge of historical fact and fiction?
How does this work?
Speaker 3 (46:29):
I present to you a scenario, and I give you
three minutes to determine whether said scenario in fact represents
fact or I made it up seas and I could
have made up a significant fact within the story and
the rest of it be mostly true and it's still fakesies.
(46:51):
Oh wow, So you asked me this every time, so
I thought I was just get in front of it this. Yeah,
because it's like you forget how this game works every
time I come in here.
Speaker 4 (47:02):
So it's not for our benefit, man, it's for the
new listeners. You just hear this weirdo popping up out
of nowhere, and they want to know what gets I'm just.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Just making sure because every time Ben says it, it's
like he legitimately doesn't remember.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, I've got it.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
I'm a little concerned.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
I've got a pretty good acting range or some emergent
issues and like the Memento guy, So if it's either
all true or it's fake.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
So I give you the scenario and then I come
up with some sort of arbitrary rule for you to
follow if you want to ask me a question, which
I now realize I did not think about before I
came in here today. So we're going to say, if
you wish to ask a question, once the time has started,
(47:50):
you will preface that question with allen Z.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Allen Z.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
You'll understand why. In a moment. I will now read
to you scenario, and then at the conclusion we will
start the clock. All right, here we are on August
twenty first, nineteen eleven, one of the greatest art heists
in history took place. A man who styled himself the
Marquis Eduardo de Valfierno calmly walked into the Louver in Paris, France.
(48:20):
He waited until no one was paying attention. He lifted
Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa off the wall, slid it
under his coat, and calmly walked out of the building.
He had already sold the Mona Lisa to an interested buyer. Actually,
he had sold it to six different interested buyers, because
(48:40):
he had no intention of partying with the real painting
you see, but rather had six forgeries made. It was
the perfect crime. The people purchasing the stolen painting would
surely not say anything about it, and they'd have no
way of knowing about each other. An accomplice named Vincenzo
(49:01):
Perugia was caught supposedly with one of the forgeries. According
to this Marquis, Perugia would be tried for the theft
and sentenced to serve out the jail sentence. The copy
the forgery, according to Valfierno, would go to the louver
where it hangs still. Valfierno told his story to journalist
(49:22):
Carl Decker of The Saturday Evening Post years later. The
whereabouts of the original Mona Lisa, according to Valfierno, are
still unknown begin the time.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Okay, first off, there's a lot of according to going
on in here, so that guy could be lying, but
the story about the lie could be true.
Speaker 4 (49:43):
Yeah, it's a good point, Ben, I don't know. You
think it's just to throw us off.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I don't know. In the past, the longer ones have
been false. But I messed up on that point because
I mentioned it in front of Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiztry.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
And he made a face.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah, he mad, I'll remember that phase all on zi.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Yeah, yes, messieur bullet.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Does does anybody else corroborate this story told to the
journalist or is it just the one guy?
Speaker 4 (50:14):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (50:15):
No, there have been several corroborations.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Okay, several credible corroborations.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Are you asking me to levy judgment upon those who
corroborate this story?
Speaker 4 (50:28):
That does seem like a stretch band to.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
Answer to answer your to answer your question?
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
The the one account of this full account of this
is in a nineteen thirty six Saturday Evening Post article.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
I seem to recall then Peruggio.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
I apologize in nineteen thirty two.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
The names as being an art like a high art
thief or something like there was a movie or something
about it. But I'm wondering if there was some detail
that was incorrect, right, that renders the whole thing?
Speaker 1 (51:03):
ALONSI, what is what is the name of the the thief? Again?
Speaker 3 (51:11):
It would be Marquis Eduardo de Valfiero.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
It was Perugio.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Perugio was an accomplice, Vincenzo Perugia.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Okay, that's the name that that that that rings a bell.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
You want to go for true?
Speaker 4 (51:27):
I want to go for true.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
All right, let's lock it in three two one true.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Oh, I feel so guilty. This one's a tricky one.
But uh no, it's false. It's actually false. You see,
you're on You're onto something, Monsieur Boulet. You see, this
story was in fact told in the Saturday Evening Post
in nineteen thirty two. But Kyle Decker was an notorious
fibber oh man, notorious, and there is absolutely no proof
(51:55):
that this ever exists. None of these supposed six forgeries
I've ever seen surfaced.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
The examination of the Mona Lisa at the Louver has
shown that it is in fact the original Mona Lisa.
In nineteen eleven, the Mona Lisa was not even a
famous painting outside of France. No one knew about it. Yeah,
but Perugia did steal the Marusia did steal the Mona
Lisa in nineteen eleven with two Italian accomplices. They spent
the night in a janitorial broom closet, woke up in
(52:24):
the next morning, and then well didn't even wake up.
They stayed awake the whole time, snuck out the next
morning with the Mona Lisa. Perugia kept it, was afraid
to try it, even fence it for almost two years.
Finally get tried to do it in Florence, and the
art dealer in Florence said, hang on, oh wow, alerted
the authorities. Perugia was in fact arrested and tried for
(52:48):
the crime and sent it to jail. You know how
long a sentence was for stealing the Mona Lisa, one
of the most famous paintings in all the world.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Uh, more than a year?
Speaker 3 (52:58):
Eight months, eight months, eight months was all. The Monna
Lisa was not very famous in nineteen eleven. And also
there was another event that ended up superseding, eclipsing You
might say this story, and that little event was the
Great War right broke out in Europe and that no
one really cared about an art thief at that point.
(53:19):
But yes, this so the story was published. Carl Decker
did write an article that made these claims, saying that
he had met this Marquis Eduardo Valfierno back in nineteen fourteen.
But there is no proof that such a man ever existed,
no proof that any forgeries were ever made, And in fact,
(53:39):
there are many parts of his story decker story that
resemble an earlier story that was published in nineteen ten
about another self styled nobleman, Count Dolby, who was known
to self forgeries to American millionaires.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
You know what though, Okay, first off, thank you. That
is an excellent explanation. But I am going to argue
that this is a draw due to the complicated and
unexplored territory that this question represents.
Speaker 3 (54:12):
It's funny because I'm the one who's in charge of
the game I say I want. Besides which you said
the last time that it was an easy one, so
now on they're going to be really hard.
Speaker 4 (54:23):
You know it's me. Sorry, guys, you know what. I've
kind of You've warned me down to the point where
I just can't even get upset about this anymore. And
I'm fine with I'm a glutton for punishment. Let's keep
let's keep this rolling again.
Speaker 3 (54:36):
We'll make it fair. Next time I make one up,
I will make one up. I will not take some
other famous fraud and then present it as if it
were true. Because you may remember, oh I remember hearing
that story. It's right, I'll be more honest in my
dis honesty.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
Great, well, you're a clever antagonist, for sure, and this
would usually be a great casey on the case moment,
but he will have to accuse himself because he is
actually friends with all of us and may have a
difficult time being impartial. However, we do want to thank
you for coming on the show and helping us in
our fellow Ridiculous Historians learn a little bit more about art.
Speaker 4 (55:20):
Heist and I hope to share length of this one
made up for the last two shorties that we put
out There we go.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
That's a good way to look at it. You are
nailing these.
Speaker 4 (55:30):
In quality I make up for in quantity.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
So we want to thank everybody. Of course, thank you
Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister. Thanks to Christopher hasiotis our
researcher associate for today's episode.
Speaker 4 (55:44):
Thanks to super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, who composed
our theme. Jonathan, I can take him our leave. And
thanks to you Ben, thanks to you big, Thanks to you,
Thank melc Buku oh Man.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
Is that all z.
Speaker 4 (56:00):
Whatever? And thanks to you folks listening public for for listening.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah. Find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, you can join
our community page, which we're big fans of Ridiculous Historians.
Jonathan drops by there as well on occasion. If you
want to learn more about Jonathan when he is not
in his alter ego. You can find him on tech
Stuff and several other shows. Isn't that correct?
Speaker 3 (56:26):
Tech Stuff is a primary show, and I've got other
ones coming up soon. And well you're trying to drink
me bullin, we're still latch neboses.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Yeah, thank you for the shout out. Oh yeah, of course,
and that's it, nol. Do you want to go out
and grift some people, like in a harmless fun way.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
Well, like steal candies from some babies or something.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
Yeah, just some Dennis the Menace type.
Speaker 4 (56:49):
Drifting victimless crimes.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (56:51):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
Hey, guys, have you ever wanted to start your own country?
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Yeah, sure, the thought has crossed my mind. I just
if for no other reason than to have my face
on some currency.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
What do you, frank, I want to My dream would
be able to buy all of the islands in the
Pacific Ocean that the United States has basically blown up
with nukes.
Speaker 1 (00:23):
Okay, that's a lot to unpack. All right, walk us
through it. Start with two vlu Make sure you get
the vanuatu. Make sure you go through. Are you gonna
do Micronesia as a unit or are you gonna move through
all the archipelago.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
We'll figure that out as we go.
Speaker 1 (00:42):
We'll figure that out as we go. And that is
a classic Gregor McGregor real name, that's a that's a
classic line from him. Uh Connor McGregor is different from
Gregor McGregor, that's right.
Speaker 2 (01:01):
Also known as His Serene Highness Gregor the first Sovereign
Prince of the State of Poiis Poiis and its dependencies,
as well as the Psachik of the Poier Nation. This
is about the time he visited London and made quite
the impression.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
Yeah, so much so that we made a t shirt
specifically for this episode. There's only one problem. When this
guy visits London and sells so many people on his ideas,
turns out he made up the nation.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
So let's hear all about Gregor McGregor and that time
he invented a country and convinced people to invest in it.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show,
(02:15):
Ridiculous Historians. Have you ever heard of a barracuda also
known as a bilker, a bunco, a hustler, a swindler,
a crook, or, perhaps most familiar, a con man. Barracuda
I know, isn't that cool? One of those that is
a synonym for a con artist. You've never heard this before,
Ben Well, neither have I? NOL have you? Super producer
(02:40):
Casey Pegram.
Speaker 3 (02:43):
That is not a use of je I'm familiar with.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Let's bring it back. I think we should welcome to
the show. This is Ridiculous History, and I've got to say, Noel,
you know how sometimes I don't know if this happens
to you. Sometimes when I'm doing research, I'll fall into
a tangential rabbit hole. Course, so in our time researching
this episode, I fell into a rabbit hole of con
(03:07):
artist culture and synonyms clearly, and grifters, Oh, we should
have said grifter. That's my favorite, and all the different
slang terms attributed to this, this subculture, this industry, and
today's show does ultimately concern what I have to say
is an objectively impressive grift.
Speaker 4 (03:26):
Yeah, And an objectively impressive grift from an objectively detestable
human person.
Speaker 1 (03:31):
Oh yeah, Oh, terrible garbage train of a person, for sure,
And often described as an adventurer, which seems like a
cool job title, but we'll find, in his case is
maybe a little more generous than he deserves. But Noel,
could you introduce us to this fellow Gregor McGregor.
Speaker 4 (03:51):
Gregor McGregor sounds made up the way that you hear
his his other name.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Yeah, he sort of.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
He once was a rosy cheeked young lad from the
Scottish Highlands. He came from fighting stock, as this fantastic
article from History Today by Victor Allen points out. You see,
his grandfather was a well known klansman. That's not a
kuk kuklusklansman, a klansman in the Scottish tradition whose name
(04:18):
in Gaelic was Gregor the Beautiful and he was a
member of something called the Black Watch and also kind
of became an important figure in a region called Inverdean
in Bretelbane, and he became something called a laird, which
I imagine to be a lord, right right.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
And those terms are also not made up. We have
to point out that this Gregor the Beautiful thing was
probably not meant sarcastically like little job or something. No,
it was a super ugly dude.
Speaker 3 (04:55):
No.
Speaker 4 (04:55):
I think he was probably a bit of a hunk
because his grandson Gregor and all the portraits that we've
been able to find of him, a pretty dashing figure.
Real smoke show, Yes, absolutely, we welcome to the Wow.
Wow man, you got some feels about greg Oh?
Speaker 1 (05:10):
No, I just wanted an excuse to use this wonderful
phrase that John Oliver used recently.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
Oh what a smoke show or a snack?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Absolute snack, that's good described it and I thought, Wow,
John Oliver, that's pretty racy.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
And I'll tell you one thing that's very snackable about
him are his delicious mutton chops, because they are a
thing of beauty. My friend. So he had a career
in a military career, pretty storied military career, sure didn'ty?
Speaker 1 (05:34):
Yeah, yeah, he had years and years of service in
the British Army. And let's talk a little bit about
how he got wrapped up in all these military shenanigans
and escapades. McGregor used to joined the British Army at sixteen,
which was that you have to be at least sixteen
(05:55):
to join the army at this time. He joined in
April eighteen oh three. Oh wait, we have to go back,
did we say when he was born December seventeen eighty six?
Crucial crucial date, crucial deep crucial date, the twenty fourth
of December in fact. Anyhow, fast forwardy sixteen April of
eighteen oh three. He signs up for the British Army.
(06:15):
His family had purchased a commission for him to serve
as an ensign in the fifty seventh West Middlesex Regiment
of Foot.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
We purchased a commission for him, like bought his way
into a cushy military job.
Speaker 1 (06:30):
Bought his way to officer status. So it cost around
four hundred and fifty pounds. Interesting because his family is
pretty well off. Sure, he's got he's a laired Yeah,
he's got a landed grandfather. Right, So when he enters
the military. Funny story, At the same time, something called
(06:50):
the Napoleonic Wars is occurring in Europe.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
I feel as though we've heard of this before.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
I think so. I think so. Longtime listeners may may
have a vague image of bunnies hopping into their heads.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, and steamy fanfic involving our born Napoleon and Alexander bizarre.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
Yeaesha, Yes, it was bizarre, to say the least worth it. Oh,
thank you. I'll be here for the rest of the show.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Good. I need you, I need you, Ben, I need you.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Are you gonna stay for the rest of this show too?
We'll see Okay, great, we'll play it by ear And
that's what McGregor was doing.
Speaker 4 (07:24):
Nice.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Thanks. So he does serve in the military, and at
this time he is actually doing the work. In February
of eighteen oh four, less than a year into his training,
he is promoted without purchasing a commission, so he earns
(07:45):
the rank of lieutenant. And this is important because that
kind of advancement usually takes much longer, like three years.
Speaker 4 (07:52):
Yeah, and what was he like in his twenties, he would.
Speaker 1 (07:55):
Still not be twenty. He would be around like maybe
just about to turn eighteen.
Speaker 4 (07:59):
This is in eighteen four four, that's right.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
And as he is serving the British Army, he is
still networking with people. He meets the daughter of a
Royal Navy admiral named Maria Bowater, and she had a
pretty hefty.
Speaker 4 (08:21):
Dowry, didn't he didn't he wife her up?
Speaker 3 (08:23):
He did?
Speaker 1 (08:24):
He did. He wifed her up. He also bought the
rank of captain for about nine hundred pounds and he
could have waited to get the promotion to earn it,
but that would have taken seven years. And he was
a man on a mission.
Speaker 4 (08:38):
Got palms being greased in this situation, aren't there? Ben?
And I think we're already seeing some foreshadowing of our
boy Gregor McGregor's slippery nature.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
That's right, Nol. And we see his extroverted nature go
international pretty soon when he is in his twenties. He
doesn't just stay in your trope, you see, he is interested,
intrigued by the colonial revolts against Spanish rule in Latin America,
particularly Venezuela.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
Venezuela and he kind of joins forces or offers his
services to I guess this guy, Simon Bolivar bar right,
who is like the head or the leader of this
kind of rebellion. His nickname was the Liberator. In fact,
earned that nickname by liberating what is now the republics
(09:34):
of Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Panama and Bolivia, made them
sovereign states and freed them from Spanish rule. And this
is all in the midst of that hub ub there, right, yes, yeah, absolutely,
So how does a how does a young scotsman throw
his hat in the ring to a revolt like this?
(09:54):
I guess they needed all the help they can get,
or what.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
They need all the help we could get. Also, we
should point out that in December of eighteen eleven, Maria
McGregor had passed away, so he is now no longer
a married man. When he arrives in Venezuela, it's not
long after an earthquake has destroyed a lot of the city.
(10:19):
This is in April of eighteen twelve. Some of the
country was under control of advancing royalist armies. The revolutionary
government was starting to collapse on itself and break into
different factions. McGregor didn't want to talk about his titles
(10:41):
in his European life. He wanted to seem pretty legit
to the Republicans, so he kept calling himself Sir Gregor,
and then he started claiming he was a Knight of
the Portuguese Order of Christ, and then he offered his
services to Venezuelan revolutionaries. The first one he offered his
(11:04):
service to was a guy named Francisco de Miranda, and
Francisco ended up being a pretty good person for MacGregor
to know. We'll see throughout this that McGregor uses people
and throws them away. He had promoted McGregor eventually to
brigadier general in eighteen.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Twelve, but he also this guy Miranda was really fascinated
by the idea of kind of having a new Incan
empire in South America, like where the streets would be
paved with gold and the trees would be overflowing with
ripe fruit and it would be just this like kind
of Shangri La or Eden type paradise, right, And this
(11:41):
was a notion that I think he started implanting in
McGregor's head that will kind of come out in this
story very very soon.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
Yeah, yeah, good call, good call. So eventually things go
wrong for Francisco de Miranda, who apparently had also just
a side note here, been knocking boots with Catherine the Great?
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Did you see that just occasionally?
Speaker 1 (12:07):
I think just occasionally. They didn't want to put a
label on it, you know what I mean, very forward thinking,
It was complicated. It was a time of revolution. So unfortunately,
Francisco da Moranda had been captured by Spanish forces and
he had been shipped off to prison, where he spent
four years chained to a wall. McGregor. However, despite losing
(12:33):
his patron at this point or his main connection with
the military structure, he continues on his journey and he
makes a name for himself. People say, hey, have you
guys seen how brave that guy is? Have you seen
what a great leader he is? Or more likely, I
held my hand in front of the mic like I'm whispering.
(12:53):
I want I want everyone to know that I did that.
Even though you can't see, he's still doing it. I'm
still doing it, still doing I'm feeling feeling this monol
because yeah, they said he's courageous, and they said he
was a great leader, and.
Speaker 4 (13:05):
Look at those chops.
Speaker 1 (13:05):
Look at those beautiful, gorgeous mutton chops, right, Or did
he just make up stories wherein he looked courageous and
looked like a good leader. Yeah, but that's the thing though,
in and around this time, and then it'll become even
more apparent once our boy kind of makes the trip
back to his home country.
Speaker 4 (13:24):
In London, things were not so good. People wanted heroes.
They wanted to believe these kinds of stories. They wanted
to look up to someone like this guy and be
able to say, hey, look at that shining example of
a man with those delightful mutton chops. I want to
follow that guy.
Speaker 1 (13:40):
That's really good context to put on this. And I
think you're absolutely correct. People need a hero, right, And
whether he is a real hero or not, it's debatable.
We'll leave that decision to you, folks, regardless. He rose
from the position of staff colonel to the general of
(14:01):
division in the Army of Venezuela and New Grenada when
he was only thirty years old and he was kicking
keisters and taking names. He fought in a ton of
battles and still leagued up with this Venezuelan revolutionary right right,
and he became known for these epic campaigns and his
(14:24):
role in these pivotal, decisive battles attracts national attention. And
Simon Boulevar, who we mentioned just a second ago, also
comes in person to award McGregor these various accolades for
his actions of wartime.
Speaker 4 (14:41):
Yeah, like serious accolades. He was awarded the insignia of
the Order of the Libertatores, which was the name of
the militaristic group that Boulevar headed up. And McGregor was
more than ready and willing to capitalize on these acts galades,
you know, in order to earn some serious coin.
Speaker 1 (15:05):
Yes. Yeah, he got married again to a relative of
the Supreme Commander Boulevar, and he also found that peace
was sort of a letdown to him, you know.
Speaker 4 (15:23):
Yeah, No, I mean not only that, it's just like
in peace, there's there's no money to be made.
Speaker 1 (15:27):
And that's what he was after, where's the next grift?
Speaker 4 (15:30):
Yeah, exactly, I mean, because I don't know, it's weird
he's up to now he does. He certainly is part
of some conflicts that make him seem like you could
view him as some kind of like military genius or
you know, some kind of like war hero. But it
does feel like he was rising in the ranks all
the while, sometimes using payoffs and sometimes you know, throwing
(15:52):
people under the bus and using people for their influence.
But it all seemed pretty self serving. But I don't know,
maybe that's just politics.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
Yeah, yeah, maybe it is. Because he continued fighting his
own kind of private war. And so after his time
in Venezuela, where he finds peace, anti climactic and let's
be honest, not all that profitable, he leads a series
of independent military campaigns in the Caribbean, and History dot
(16:20):
Com has a great has a great article on this
by Evan Andrews. But I won't want to read the
title yet because you don't want to spoil the story.
He did something pretty interesting. He just arbitrarily would promote
the people who worked for him, the different freebooters that
he was hiring and mercenaries. I'm like, oh, I like
(16:40):
the cut of your jib. You're a lieutenant.
Speaker 4 (16:43):
Now I'm my crew, right.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
And his big tent campaign in this period of his
life was the brief capture of Florida's Amelia Island from
the Spanish. He also was not the most impressive military commander.
At least by this point he was known to immediately
(17:06):
desert his army.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
There you go, here's some chinks in the armor, Ben
give it. He was because he cultivated his image of
himself and then clearly that was more important than actually being,
you know, a good guy or an effective leader.
Speaker 1 (17:17):
Yeah, yeah, that's that's the truth. That's what we were
alluding to earlier when we talked about his courage and
his leadership. It turns out that he as long as
everything was going fine for his army, he was completely
on board and one hundred percent down for the cause. However,
if things appeared to go south, sideways or pear shaped,
as they say in the UK, he would ghost. But
(17:42):
he still kept his knack for self promotion and deception.
So the accounts he would tell of various military conflicts
differed from the accounts everybody else would tell, and he
became known, at least in this area of the world.
It's very important detail as a bit of a blustering braggart,
(18:05):
but still a charmer, just very self aggrandizing and a
guy who thought he was the smartest person in the
room and was convinced that he could sell anyone on anything.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
Yeah, and as we're gonna find out, he kind of could.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
Yes, should we just jump there?
Speaker 4 (18:24):
Oh, we definitely, we can jump there. In the form
of a slight lead up in that he kind of
waged what the History of Today article various two he
describes as a private war where he included in that
was that capture of that fortress that you mentioned. But
(18:46):
most importantly him and his associates, the band of Brigands.
I guess that he's sort of amassed landed on the
mainland of Nicaragua, where there is a stretch of coast
region called the Mosquito.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
Coast, Yes, also known as the Mosquito Kingdom.
Speaker 4 (19:05):
M hmm.
Speaker 1 (19:06):
Yeah, this is an important part here. Nowadays it's the
eastern coast of Nicaragua and Honduras. Just a little bit
of southern Honduras shares this area, but the Mosquito Coast
was generally thought of as the domain of the Mosquito
(19:27):
or Mosquito Kingdom, and they had an interesting tension in
this area between the British, the US and the countries
of Nicaragua and Honduras.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Well, not to mention the Native America, the Native people,
the Mosquito Indians, right, yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (19:47):
We had a strange situation here because the Mosquito people
had their own rulers or kings, and they had a
specific name, right.
Speaker 4 (19:58):
Yeah, that's right, man.
Speaker 1 (19:59):
They had some thing of a king who was called
the Cacique series of kings, Yes, series of kings.
Speaker 4 (20:05):
This is the Cacique king of the Mosquito Indians. And
this individual made a bit of a devil's bargain with
our boy McGregor.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah. And so for context, the Cacique, the kings of
this area of the Mosquito people, allowed foreigners to settle
in their lands so long as their overall sovereignty was respected.
And a lot of British merchants and Garifuno people from
Honduras took advantage of this. And one of these kings,
(20:39):
one of these Caziques, makes a deal with Gregor McGregor.
For I believe it was thirty thirty miles of land, that's.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
Right, and it was on what's known as the Poias Shore.
And so with that land grant that sureley was on
the up and up this deal. Right, Surely, all the
teas were crossed and the eyes were dotted.
Speaker 1 (21:04):
Yeah, I'm convinced.
Speaker 4 (21:05):
Uh huh. Yeah. So, with this deal having been made,
McGregor makes his way back to England, to London in particular,
making some pretty outrageous claims.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Right yeah. So after he makes this deal in eighteen twenty,
he becomes a whole new Gregor McGregor. He is the
Prince of Poios. He's named his newfound dominion Poios. And
boy is Poios a great place. This is where we
see the inspiration he received from Miranda's vision of a
(21:40):
new Incland Empire. Popping back up again, he described this
place in very hyperbolic, fascinating, almost too good to be
truish terms.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
Yeah, like stuff like flowing with milk and honey, you know,
fruit trees spilling with delicious ripe fruit, water so pure
that it would quench any thirst. I think was one
of them right then.
Speaker 1 (22:06):
And he claimed he was the Kazique or the king
slash prince of this area, and that this was an
obscure but prosperous nation, and not only was it a
hidden gem across the sea, but it was an act
now situation because you see, Londoners, you too can be
(22:27):
part of the dream. The Kazique of Poias has come
on a mission to solicit investments and to recruit potential settlers.
Speaker 4 (22:38):
Right. And there's a super cool exitt from a book
by Maria Khanikhova that is on the BBC that talks
about some of the psychological principles of persuasion that Conman used,
in particular that Gregor McGregor used. Do you want to
talk through some of those.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
Sure, let's round robin it. There are six. The first
is reciprocity.
Speaker 4 (23:01):
Reciprocity I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine, coming from McGregor.
Speaker 1 (23:05):
Hey, I'm giving you this chance of a lifetime. All
you got to do for me is give me all
your money. And then consistency of behavior, meaning that whether
it is true or a lie, I am going to
believe the same thing I did.
Speaker 4 (23:20):
Yesterday, right exactly. Then we have social validation, which is
super important because it's basically like, if I'm saying to you, Ben, Ben,
you gotta do this. It's gonna make you a real,
real true scotsman, a real true man's man, a Robinson
Caruso type, you know, going out and taming the wilds.
(23:41):
And at the same time it's gonna be awesome, so
don't worry about it.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, and there's there's a clever thing there too, because
the social validation there is I have specifically chosen you
to be part of this.
Speaker 4 (23:53):
Yes, for your merits that are just on display, Ben,
I want you to be part of my new utopia.
Speaker 1 (24:00):
Also, this is just between us. I like you as
a person. That's number four. You know we're we're friends,
we're buddies, we're pals. You know you're you're pal with
the Kozique of Poia.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
How cool is that? And here's a really important one.
And you see it's funny you see a mix of
these being used in everything from like offers on Facebook
and things to like ticket sales. You notice how every
time you see an ad for like concert tickets, they
always say really going quick, acting quick, get them now.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You gotta get them while they're hot, because there's just
not enough to go around me.
Speaker 4 (24:33):
Because it's just such an amazing opportunity. And if you
don't do it, somebody else will, so you better hop
on it. And then finally, what do we have?
Speaker 1 (24:41):
Yes, finally authority. I know what I am talking about, oh,
says the grifter.
Speaker 4 (24:47):
And not only that, this is my favorite part of
this whole story. Actually, McGregor actually wrote a book, yes,
under an assumed name, called Sketch of the Mosquito Shore,
including the Territory of Poios. And it was written by
a man by the name of Thomas strange Ways. Thomas Strangeways,
(25:13):
Captain Thomas Strangers.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
Yes, pardon me, Captain Thomas.
Speaker 4 (25:18):
Exactly, but yeah, I mean everything all signs point to
this was in fact McGregor. So he was like laying
the groundwork for this grift. This is a long con man.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Yeah, and people did not have the same I guess,
I don't want to say wherewithal, but they didn't have
the same resources access to that we have today to
verify information. So Thomas strange Ways, oh, excuse me again,
Captain Thomas strange Ways just had a really interesting name,
sounded like a great well traveled adventurer, and in very
(25:52):
idyllic bucolic terms described this hitherto unknown nation of Poya.
Speaker 4 (26:00):
Yeah, and he described it just as we described it,
just as McGregor described it as this place, oh gold
just overflowing from the river everywhere, just everywhere, lousy with gold.
And here's the thing with that authority point of persuasion.
This makes it even better because he's saying, don't take
my word for it. Check out this guy, Captain. Strange ways,
he's been there. He wrote a book about it. Who
(26:22):
would write a book about it if it wasn't true.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Yeah, I was quite delighted to find that my tiny,
beautiful nation was the subject of a book. You seem
well read. You've surely heard of the sketches right here.
Here's a little little stud a little exhibit from the.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Preface Mosquito Shaw, including the territory of Poios, being impressed
with a thorough conviction of the immense benefit which not
only the native tribes of Mosquitia, but the neighboring countries
in general, must derive from the civilization and improvement of
one of the fairest portions of the globe. Has endeavored
(26:59):
in the following sheets to attract the attention of enlightened
Europeans to the subject, by combining the knowledge of its history,
natural productions, the best mode of culture, and et cetera,
which he acquired during a portion of his life spent
in that part of the world.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
This is was that your Matt Berry, I don't know
kind of it was it was. It was yeah, yes, no.
Speaker 4 (27:20):
But so this is this is so met up because
this is McGregor, right, writing a preface like you know
himself for Strange four Strange Ways, who is also himself.
Speaker 1 (27:30):
And it's it's long preference. We know that sounded like
a long thing. But that's just an excerpt.
Speaker 4 (27:34):
It's just an exerpt. But the point is is from
the start it reads like a treatise for how awesome
this place is.
Speaker 1 (27:40):
It's like like a timeshare pamphlet or an infomercial that
purports to be a documentary. Right, And at this time
now the he's reinvented himself as the Khysique, as his
Highness Gregor. He is a fixture in London's high society.
Wealthy aristocrats set him and his wife up in a
country home. The Lord Mayor holds a banquet in his
(28:04):
honor and people start to trust him because he's charming,
and he cites all his past military achievements and you
know what, I've got to stop just for a second.
Strange Ways is just such a terrible, terrible name. It's
like Timmy mcreal name.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
Well, I mean, Gregor McGregor's not great either. Yeah, but
it's real. Yeah, but that's the real one. That's just
so weird. I'm not making fun of Scottish names. I
just think any name where like the first name and
the last name are the same inherently absurd sounding to me.
But that's just my opinion.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yeah, yeah, there's you know, Humbert, Humbert all that sort
of stuff exactly. But even though he's Gregor McGregor, excuse me,
his highness the Khasique Gregor, he is really and genuinely
winning people over because he doesn't just come with great stories.
He doesn't just come with a book that he didn't write.
(28:57):
He also, you see, has tons and tons of official documents,
all kinds of paperwork. He has a handwritten lands grant
from the Mosquito King, which is a great band name.
He has a national flag. He has charts and maps
showing the location and border of Poios.
Speaker 4 (29:14):
I think he even had some currency from the Bank
of Poios.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Yes, he has currency. I think they call it what
one hard note.
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Oh, and it says at the bottom, by order of
His Highness Gregor Kazik of Poios. Yes.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
And the problem with all this one hard dollar one
hard dollar, which is a weird phrase little bit. Yeah,
but the problem with all of this documentation is that
almost all of it is entirely fabricated by him. He
has he has made up these dollars. And remember that
(29:49):
crazy fraudulent music festival called Firefest that happened last year
with the jaw rule, I think I think that's right.
Speaker 4 (29:58):
But basically what it was was the total bait and
switch where they were selling these premium packages to you know,
rabid bougie concert goers to go to this like private
island where this concert was going to be held, and
everyone showed up and they're suppose they were expecting all
these crazy accommodations and like nothing, there was nothing. It
was just trash. It was these like crappy tents. There
(30:21):
was just like you know, no sand, no wood, just
just totally filthy and absolute, you know, just complete grift.
That's what the the handful of hapless settlers who abandoned
their homes for a better life under the benevolent you know,
(30:42):
hand of the Kazique of Poyas, that's what they found.
Speaker 1 (30:46):
Well, yeah, it sounds crazy, but let's let's step back
a little and see how it happened. Because he floats
a two hundred thousand pounds sterling Poya's bond in the
London money market, and then he also starts selling land
and titles. Two would be caughtists and you could get
a pretty good deal. For just eleven pounds, you could
purchase one hundred acres of Poya farmland, and if you
(31:09):
were a little more well to do, you could buy
a post as an officer in the military, the same
way the Kazique became.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, you know, paying forward, paying.
Speaker 1 (31:21):
Forward, you know, in the sleaziest way possible.
Speaker 4 (31:24):
And how crazy that the value of those bonds you
mentioned just ballooned over time.
Speaker 1 (31:30):
Yeah, yeah, And in September of eighteen twenty two, a
ship called the Honduras Packet set sail from London with
as as you said, a handful of people bound for Poya,
probably with their land deeds clutched in their hands. And
that first ship only took about what several dozen people.
Speaker 4 (31:55):
Yeah, and there's a second one called the Kinnersley Castle,
and I believe bewe even the two there was two
hundred and fifty folks in total, and they were just
expecting paradise, you know, as as well they should have given,
you know, the salesmanship of our guy McGregor.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Yeah. So these people who are called poyers, most of
them invested their entire life savings in this journey. As
you said. No, no, they sold their houses. Some had even
converted all their cash to hard poise dollars. Shaking my head,
I feel bad for these hapless SAPs. Yeah, it's terrible,
you know. At the same time, again, though, things were
(32:36):
not so hot in the in the world at large,
and certainly the kind of people that maybe would look
at this as an opportunity to start again. You know,
Scotland is pretty bleak, No, the weather's not great. It
felt like maybe to some this was a way to
break out of their kind of typical humdrum routine and
start a new life for what seemed like a too
(32:58):
good to pass up deal, which is an another part
of manipulative techniques of grifters is the idea there's two notions.
One is you're spurring somebody towards making a decision that
you want them to make right and also making sure
that the decision seems like something that they would be too.
It would be a fool to reject this offer because
it's just like a no brainer, right. Yeah, And it's
(33:19):
also very helpful. You know you've done well when they
feel as though it is their own idea. Hey, Cazique,
you and I are friends, right, you know what, poya
sounds so good that I would like to go. Napoleon
has just been defeated. The British economy is expanding, and
you know, I'm in a good mood. I think it's
(33:40):
a it's a time to make a change, right. And
this works very well for the Cazique at first. But
for these poor investors, the poya they were promised is
not the poya they find when they land.
Speaker 4 (33:57):
Now, is that firefest situation? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (33:59):
Exactly. They see no farmland. They see mile after mile
of dense, nigh impenetrable jungle, and they are wondering, you know,
where is all the crystal clear water. Where is all
the abundant, rich soil we will promised? Where the heck
is this civilization you told us about.
Speaker 4 (34:24):
I here's a fantastic exert from an account of the
time that was reprinted in The Guardian recently.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
Yeah. This from the Guardian archive was in print the
twenty fifth of October eighteen twenty three by the time
that a couple of settlers had made it back.
Speaker 4 (34:42):
So here it goes. When the immigrants arrived at San Joseph,
nothing could exceed their anguish on finding where they expected
a fine flourishing town with nearly two thousand inhabitants only
two or three ruined huts. The party exerted themselves vigorously
clearing away some stunted mahogany trees from about six hundred
yards of sandy ground and erecting a number of little
(35:04):
huts and tents with blankets to protect them from the weather.
Nearly all of their provisions, however, had been wet and landing,
as they had been compelled to roll all their barrels
for a considerable distance through salt water. The sun in
the daytime was intolerably hot, and the nights were cold
with heavy rain. So what ended up happening was a
(35:25):
lot of people died. They got very sickened because the
water was not that pure, clean drinking water that was described.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
It was brackish and contaminated with animal waste as well.
So in a very short amount of time, I think
twenty people died and everyone who didn't die got sick,
And along comes the real Cazique, the king of the
Mosquito Indians. He visits them to see what's going on.
Speaker 4 (35:55):
Yeah, who the heck are you guys?
Speaker 1 (35:57):
Right? And we have an excerpt that explains this situation
pretty well. Try to imagine the king's utter bafflement here.
He afterwards sen a letter stating that he made a
grant of thirty miles of land on the Poiish Shore
to Sir Gregor MacGregor three years ago, but that quote
(36:17):
unquote Sir Gregor, having until that time neglected to take possession,
he considered the grant as void, and that had he
then known Sir Gregor as he did now, he would
never have made the grant. He would oppose the settlement
of anyone belonging to Sir Gregor within his territory, and
prescribed as the condition of their remaining in peace, that
(36:41):
they should abjure Sir Gregor and swear allegiance to him.
Speaker 4 (36:45):
So, in other words, he became aware of what a
bastard Gregor was.
Speaker 1 (36:49):
Yeah, utter bastard. And so at this stage he also
threatens some of these settlers. He says, and we'll paraphrase here,
that he could call up seven thousand natives and cut
off the entire settler community at one blow. But by
this point, and by their own emission, the settlers felt
(37:12):
themselves past fear death was killing everybody off, just as
surely as the mosquito king was threatening to do.
Speaker 4 (37:22):
Bad times. Man, there's a really sad little account of
a man who was a shoemaker who was declared to
be the official shoemaker of the Princess of Poya, whoever
that was. Yeah, and he apparently got so sick that
he took his own life by shooting himself while laying
dying in a hammock.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yep, and six men tried to get to Honduras in
a canoe. They ended up being castaways, but they were
rescued by a guy named mister Bennett, who was a
Mahogany merchant and an overall stand up dude. He learned
of what was.
Speaker 4 (38:03):
Happening, Thank God for mister Bennett.
Speaker 1 (38:05):
Yeah, and he sent a ship to take as many
settlers as he could to a hospital in Honduras and
to fetch the rest of them on the second trip. However,
at this point the situation is still fraught with danger
because we mentioned Hondura's package right that's the first ship
(38:27):
with about fifty people. We mentioned Kennersley Castle. That's the
second ship with about two hundred people. There were two
other ships on the way. There was the Albion, which
was the third vessel to bring settlers. It was diverted
to Belize after they discovered that the previous settlers had abandoned.
Speaker 4 (38:46):
This is so Firefest, dude, This is like, I mean,
this is literally what happened with Firefest. People got trapped
on the island. Yeah, they couldn't fly out a much
bougier version of this, But I wonder if if joh Ruler,
whoever the hell was responsible for that, looked at this
story as like an inspiration.
Speaker 1 (39:01):
Yeah. And the other ship the scheme was sent bringing
arms and supplies also diverted to Belize. And there also
reports that five other vessels were on the way. But
in a massive stroke of luck for these vessels, word
reached Britain that Poya was entirely made up by that time,
(39:23):
so the British Royal Navy intercepted these other five ships
and turned them back. And again this all happened because
there was such a scarcity of information and it took
forever to contact people, especially over those long distances. All
in all, McGregor's swindle here raised two hundred thousand pounds.
(39:46):
But Noel, what happened when people found out about this.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Well, they were justifiably enraged and they were thirsty for
McGregor's blood. But by this point he had already high
tailed it out of the country and posted up in France.
Or I think he ran a a a few years
more of other scams on the hapless Parisians. And by
the way, if we're going to inflation calculator, that amount
(40:12):
of money that he raised, it's it would be in
the billions of dollars.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
Oh yeah, if we count France. There's a great article
from the economists called The King of Conmen that that
does the math for us here. Over his lifetime, those
bond market frauds in the in England and in France
run to the tune of one point three million And
in today's terms, how much is that coac.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
That would be three point six a billion pounds, So
that it's crazy and yeah, and so a big part
of this, I guess once he got to Paris too.
I mean, I don't know, it must have been part
of it for from the start. But this idea of
these gold mines, you know, selling these parcels of land
with the promise of these imaginary gold mines, that people
(41:06):
would just be able to dislike, stick their hands in
the water and just get get gold.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
Right, lousy with gold, blowsy with gold.
Speaker 4 (41:12):
But for whatever reason in this History Today article they
conjecture that maybe Paris was a little too too hot
for McGregor and his crew. They came back to London
and thank god has little come up in s here.
They were arrested on site and imprisoned in a prison
called the Top Hill Fields.
Speaker 1 (41:33):
Yeah. We should note though that when he was in
France he was doing the exact same scheme. He didn't
even change the name of the country. I think that's
part of why he was so quickly caught, you know.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
And I think I may have spoke too soon, Ben
that come up and was maybe just the humiliation of
being arrested. But as slippery as snake as this dude was,
he was able to wriggle his way even out of
this one.
Speaker 1 (42:00):
Yes, that is true. He was in tott Hillfield's bridewell
for about a week before he was released without a charge.
And then immediately he starts a newer version of the
Poya scheme, and this time he calls himself Kazik of
the Republic of Poyas. He sets up a new office
(42:22):
and doesn't claim any of the diplomatic status that he
had done with the other office, and he starts acting
through proxies. He gets another company to act as brokers.
Speaker 4 (42:34):
Yeah, so he basically smartened up his grift a little bit, right,
and then separated himself from it someway.
Speaker 1 (42:40):
Right, and he started selling other versions of this. By
the time it hit eighteen twenty eight, he was selling
certificates entitling holders to land in Poyas proper at five
shillings per acre. Yeah. He goes on publishing these various
(43:02):
documents papers power at this time.
Speaker 4 (43:04):
Oh yeah, so he he published if it's printed, yeah,
it must be true.
Speaker 1 (43:08):
Right, why would you go to the trouble? He publishes
a constitution for a smaller republic headed by himself as president.
He eventually, despite all his efforts, has a bit of
a come to Jesus moment, as they would call it
in the American South, and he understands that the Poya
Grift has finally done it. Everybody knows, yes, every course
(43:31):
is dead.
Speaker 4 (43:31):
Yeah, because he's burned through all his money. At this point,
he's got no friends left to speak of, and so
he goes back to the last place where he felt beloved,
which was old Venezuela, where he still had some connects.
He didn't screw anybody over there, exactly right, that I
can think of. So he went back and actually petitioned
(43:52):
the government to give him citizenship and restore his military rank.
So he ended his life living in Venezuela as a
general and got a government pension.
Speaker 1 (44:06):
Yeah, back pay as well and pension. And that's primarily
because the Defense Minister had served a longside McGregor in
an expedition in eighteen sixteen and said, you know what,
this guy is a war hero. And this worked. The
part of today's Honduras that was called Poya remains undeveloped today.
(44:29):
There are no villages, no abundant farmland, no gold mines
that anyone knows about. But McGregor himself, Old Gregor MacGregor
passed away a freeman on December fourth, eighteen forty five.
One of the greatest grifters ever lived, just an utter sleeve.
Speaker 4 (44:50):
Back you gotta admire the stones on this guy though, Man,
I mean, good lord, just to keep it rolling like
this for so long.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
Yeah, but hopefully a lesson to be learned. And we
hope that you enjoyed this episode as well. Thanks so
much forgiving us listen. Enjoyed.
Speaker 4 (45:10):
That's it. It's nothing. It's another one of these where yes,
it's ridiculous, but god, this guy puts some people through
the ringer, but I enjoyed learning about it.
Speaker 1 (45:19):
Yeah, well, tell us what you think and.
Speaker 4 (45:25):
Really annoying.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
It's a gentleman.
Speaker 1 (45:33):
Jonathan Strickland, the.
Speaker 4 (45:35):
Quizt Speaking of time, it's been a nice little stretch
of time since we've had since you've darkened our studio.
Speaker 1 (45:42):
Door operative word being a nice stretch.
Speaker 3 (45:45):
You know. I heard so many complaints about my absence
that I could not allow it to continue one breath longer.
And so the most cringe worthy segmented all the podcasting has.
Speaker 4 (46:00):
I'm certainly cringing.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
You're also on a T shirt. It has gone too far.
Speaker 3 (46:06):
It's a top seller. So this is this is.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
Our non consensually recurring segment wherein you the Quiztor, also
known as Jonathan Strickland.
Speaker 4 (46:18):
Just kind of materializes.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Ye want, right when we think we're going to end
the show to test our knowledge of historical fact and fiction?
How does this work?
Speaker 3 (46:29):
I present to you a scenario, and I give you
three minutes to determine whether said scenario in fact represents
fact or I made it up seas and I could
have made up a significant fact within the story and
the rest of it be mostly true and it's still fakesies.
(46:51):
Oh wow, So you asked me this every time, so
I thought I was just get in front of it this. Yeah,
because it's like you forget how this game works every
time I come in here.
Speaker 4 (47:02):
So it's not for our benefit, man, it's for the
new listeners. You just hear this weirdo popping up out
of nowhere, and they want to know what gets I'm just.
Speaker 3 (47:10):
Just making sure because every time Ben says it, it's
like he legitimately doesn't remember.
Speaker 1 (47:14):
Yeah, I've got it.
Speaker 3 (47:15):
I'm a little concerned.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
I've got a pretty good acting range or some emergent
issues and like the Memento guy, So if it's either
all true or it's fake.
Speaker 3 (47:28):
So I give you the scenario and then I come
up with some sort of arbitrary rule for you to
follow if you want to ask me a question, which
I now realize I did not think about before I
came in here today. So we're going to say, if
you wish to ask a question, once the time has started,
(47:50):
you will preface that question with allen Z.
Speaker 1 (47:55):
Allen Z.
Speaker 3 (47:55):
You'll understand why. In a moment. I will now read
to you scenario, and then at the conclusion we will
start the clock. All right, here we are on August
twenty first, nineteen eleven, one of the greatest art heists
in history took place. A man who styled himself the
Marquis Eduardo de Valfierno calmly walked into the Louver in Paris, France.
(48:20):
He waited until no one was paying attention. He lifted
Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa off the wall, slid it
under his coat, and calmly walked out of the building.
He had already sold the Mona Lisa to an interested buyer. Actually,
he had sold it to six different interested buyers, because
(48:40):
he had no intention of partying with the real painting
you see, but rather had six forgeries made. It was
the perfect crime. The people purchasing the stolen painting would
surely not say anything about it, and they'd have no
way of knowing about each other. An accomplice named Vincenzo
(49:01):
Perugia was caught supposedly with one of the forgeries. According
to this Marquis, Perugia would be tried for the theft
and sentenced to serve out the jail sentence. The copy
the forgery, according to Valfierno, would go to the louver
where it hangs still. Valfierno told his story to journalist
(49:22):
Carl Decker of The Saturday Evening Post years later. The
whereabouts of the original Mona Lisa, according to Valfierno, are
still unknown begin the time.
Speaker 1 (49:36):
Okay, first off, there's a lot of according to going
on in here, so that guy could be lying, but
the story about the lie could be true.
Speaker 4 (49:43):
Yeah, it's a good point, Ben, I don't know. You
think it's just to throw us off.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
I don't know. In the past, the longer ones have
been false. But I messed up on that point because
I mentioned it in front of Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiztry.
Speaker 4 (49:58):
And he made a face.
Speaker 1 (49:59):
Yeah, he mad, I'll remember that phase all on zi.
Speaker 3 (50:04):
Yeah, yes, messieur bullet.
Speaker 1 (50:07):
Does does anybody else corroborate this story told to the
journalist or is it just the one guy?
Speaker 4 (50:14):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (50:15):
No, there have been several corroborations.
Speaker 1 (50:18):
Okay, several credible corroborations.
Speaker 3 (50:22):
Are you asking me to levy judgment upon those who
corroborate this story?
Speaker 4 (50:28):
That does seem like a stretch band to.
Speaker 3 (50:29):
Answer to answer your to answer your question?
Speaker 1 (50:32):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (50:33):
The the one account of this full account of this
is in a nineteen thirty six Saturday Evening Post article.
Speaker 4 (50:43):
I seem to recall then Peruggio.
Speaker 3 (50:46):
I apologize in nineteen thirty two.
Speaker 4 (50:48):
The names as being an art like a high art
thief or something like there was a movie or something
about it. But I'm wondering if there was some detail
that was incorrect, right, that renders the whole thing?
Speaker 1 (51:03):
ALONSI, what is what is the name of the the thief? Again?
Speaker 3 (51:11):
It would be Marquis Eduardo de Valfiero.
Speaker 4 (51:16):
It was Perugio.
Speaker 3 (51:17):
Perugio was an accomplice, Vincenzo Perugia.
Speaker 4 (51:21):
Okay, that's the name that that that that rings a bell.
Speaker 1 (51:26):
You want to go for true?
Speaker 4 (51:27):
I want to go for true.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
All right, let's lock it in three two one true.
Speaker 3 (51:32):
Oh, I feel so guilty. This one's a tricky one.
But uh no, it's false. It's actually false. You see,
you're on You're onto something, Monsieur Boulet. You see, this
story was in fact told in the Saturday Evening Post
in nineteen thirty two. But Kyle Decker was an notorious
fibber oh man, notorious, and there is absolutely no proof
(51:55):
that this ever exists. None of these supposed six forgeries
I've ever seen surfaced.
Speaker 1 (52:00):
Uh huh.
Speaker 3 (52:01):
The examination of the Mona Lisa at the Louver has
shown that it is in fact the original Mona Lisa.
In nineteen eleven, the Mona Lisa was not even a
famous painting outside of France. No one knew about it. Yeah,
but Perugia did steal the Marusia did steal the Mona
Lisa in nineteen eleven with two Italian accomplices. They spent
the night in a janitorial broom closet, woke up in
(52:24):
the next morning, and then well didn't even wake up.
They stayed awake the whole time, snuck out the next
morning with the Mona Lisa. Perugia kept it, was afraid
to try it, even fence it for almost two years.
Finally get tried to do it in Florence, and the
art dealer in Florence said, hang on, oh wow, alerted
the authorities. Perugia was in fact arrested and tried for
(52:48):
the crime and sent it to jail. You know how
long a sentence was for stealing the Mona Lisa, one
of the most famous paintings in all the world.
Speaker 1 (52:56):
Uh, more than a year?
Speaker 3 (52:58):
Eight months, eight months, eight months was all. The Monna
Lisa was not very famous in nineteen eleven. And also
there was another event that ended up superseding, eclipsing You
might say this story, and that little event was the
Great War right broke out in Europe and that no
one really cared about an art thief at that point.
(53:19):
But yes, this so the story was published. Carl Decker
did write an article that made these claims, saying that
he had met this Marquis Eduardo Valfierno back in nineteen fourteen.
But there is no proof that such a man ever existed,
no proof that any forgeries were ever made, And in fact,
(53:39):
there are many parts of his story decker story that
resemble an earlier story that was published in nineteen ten
about another self styled nobleman, Count Dolby, who was known
to self forgeries to American millionaires.
Speaker 1 (53:53):
You know what though, Okay, first off, thank you. That
is an excellent explanation. But I am going to argue
that this is a draw due to the complicated and
unexplored territory that this question represents.
Speaker 3 (54:12):
It's funny because I'm the one who's in charge of
the game I say I want. Besides which you said
the last time that it was an easy one, so
now on they're going to be really hard.
Speaker 4 (54:23):
You know it's me. Sorry, guys, you know what. I've
kind of You've warned me down to the point where
I just can't even get upset about this anymore. And
I'm fine with I'm a glutton for punishment. Let's keep
let's keep this rolling again.
Speaker 3 (54:36):
We'll make it fair. Next time I make one up,
I will make one up. I will not take some
other famous fraud and then present it as if it
were true. Because you may remember, oh I remember hearing
that story. It's right, I'll be more honest in my
dis honesty.
Speaker 1 (54:57):
Great, well, you're a clever antagonist, for sure, and this
would usually be a great casey on the case moment,
but he will have to accuse himself because he is
actually friends with all of us and may have a
difficult time being impartial. However, we do want to thank
you for coming on the show and helping us in
our fellow Ridiculous Historians learn a little bit more about art.
Speaker 4 (55:20):
Heist and I hope to share length of this one
made up for the last two shorties that we put
out There we go.
Speaker 1 (55:26):
That's a good way to look at it. You are
nailing these.
Speaker 4 (55:30):
In quality I make up for in quantity.
Speaker 1 (55:34):
So we want to thank everybody. Of course, thank you
Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister. Thanks to Christopher hasiotis our
researcher associate for today's episode.
Speaker 4 (55:44):
Thanks to super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, who composed
our theme. Jonathan, I can take him our leave. And
thanks to you Ben, thanks to you big, Thanks to you,
Thank melc Buku oh Man.
Speaker 3 (55:57):
Is that all z.
Speaker 4 (56:00):
Whatever? And thanks to you folks listening public for for listening.
Speaker 1 (56:05):
Yeah. Find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, you can join
our community page, which we're big fans of Ridiculous Historians.
Jonathan drops by there as well on occasion. If you
want to learn more about Jonathan when he is not
in his alter ego. You can find him on tech
Stuff and several other shows. Isn't that correct?
Speaker 3 (56:26):
Tech Stuff is a primary show, and I've got other
ones coming up soon. And well you're trying to drink
me bullin, we're still latch neboses.
Speaker 1 (56:36):
Yeah, thank you for the shout out. Oh yeah, of course,
and that's it, nol. Do you want to go out
and grift some people, like in a harmless fun way.
Speaker 4 (56:45):
Well, like steal candies from some babies or something.
Speaker 1 (56:48):
Yeah, just some Dennis the Menace type.
Speaker 4 (56:49):
Drifting victimless crimes.
Speaker 1 (56:51):
Yes.
Speaker 4 (56:51):
Sure.
Speaker 1 (56:58):
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows,
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