Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Folks, it's time. You know what time it is. It's
time for a classic episode of Ridiculous History where we're
hanging out with one of the uh with a guy
who has one of the coolest street names we've run into.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Old knife Hand. Oh man, I was thinking that we
had a bit of a run of spooky themed episodes here,
and I'm realizing these were all from October twenty eighteen.
I guess we used to be a little more seasonal
with our episodes. Has since gone totally off the rails
in that department. So let's harken back to a perhaps
more seasonally organized time in the world of Ridiculous History,
(00:36):
chewing Necropolis and what is now in northern Italy that
held a strange and at first glance terrifying corpse.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Oh so I should say, you know, I just remembered
we're the guys who made up the nickname knife Hands.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Oh he did, That's okay, it's the name. He was
a lombard man and we call him Old knife Hands.
Fill in the blanks, let's throw it.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. No no no
(01:25):
no no no no no no no no no no
no knife Man. Welcome to the show, Ridiculous Historians. I'm Ben.
Speaker 2 (01:33):
I can't how am I supposed to say my name
when it's not nearly as cool as a knife man.
Speaker 1 (01:38):
I mean it's his name, I know, but his real
name is probably something like Giovanni.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
Yeah, it's probably true. I'm Noel the Ordinary Brown.
Speaker 1 (01:47):
We are joined with our guest super producer. Give him
a big hand, He's got his own sound. Cue super
producer Paul Dekint No Love Lost with super producer Casey Pegri,
who will return to his regular American life.
Speaker 2 (02:03):
Wait, no love lost? You mean that? Do you mean
they're they're bitter enemies? Isn't that what no love lost means?
Speaker 1 (02:08):
You know, I've been using it in this case to
say that we don't love Casey any less, we have
not lost love for him.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
That's I think That's how it always occurred to me.
Is it should be said? But I've always understood it
to mean some kind of enmity towards.
Speaker 1 (02:21):
The foe, like there's no love lost between them exactly
because there was never any to begin with. Right, Well,
let's let's take it back. I lets make it something
positive the way the Ghostbusters charged that goo and Ghostbusters too,
and made it a positive thing.
Speaker 2 (02:36):
You remember that that's a science joke, Ben, Is that
a science They charged it? You mean they charged it
like because they it's an ion, right, isn't that an ion?
Speaker 1 (02:44):
It positively charged it.
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Well, as you can tell from our intro, it's Friday,
it's been a long week.
Speaker 2 (02:50):
And today's episode is about Ghostbusters.
Speaker 1 (02:53):
No uh, it touches on something spooky. Yeah, there's that.
Speaker 2 (02:58):
We are still in the throes of holle yes month.
Speaker 1 (03:01):
Yes, yes, the most hallowed of Ween's.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
And weirdly enough, the band Ween is doing a double
engagement at our famous Tabernacle theater tonight and tomorrow night.
Oh so it's all come full Weeen.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
It's all happening. It's all happening. Well you like Ween? Yeah,
I like Ween. I would say I'm a Ween fan,
me too. Today's episode as that's our that's our slow,
circuitous route toward today's episode. Today's episode does not, as
far as we know, involve the band Ween, but it
does involve something grim, grizzly, and we'll say it badass.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Mm hmm. It does strike me as the kind of
thing that Ween might write a song about because they're
all about weird stuff and badass stuff and like kind
of psychedelic trippy stuff, and I feel like this falls
into all of those categories.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
It does, and it takes us to our Our story
begins long, long ago. But let's start in the middle
of the story. Innineteen eighties Italy, in a region of
northern Italy called Vignetto. In nineteen eighty five, archaeologists made
a fascinating discovery. They found a necropolis that housed the
(04:14):
corpses of people known as the Longo Bards.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
The Longo Bards also, it took me a minute to
realize these were one and the same, known as the
Lombards or the long Beards. Yes, it kind of mutated
over time because these warring Germanic tribesmen who held sway
over a lot of Europe for a lot longer than
you would expect, which is I know, very vague. Maybe Ben,
(04:38):
you can plug into some specific numbers in a minute,
but they wore quite long beards.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Yes, and they were nothing to sneeze at, these these
Germanic people. According to Lombard historian Paul the Deacon, they
descended from a small tribe that Dwelt in southern Scandinavia
tribe called the winil Wi Nili, and from this relatively
(05:05):
humble beginning they would rise to eventually rule most of
the Italian peninsula from five sixty eight a d. To
the late seven seventies, like seven seventy four seventy five AD.
And this this is the environment in which our story
takes place. Noel, As you said, they were known for
(05:28):
being warlike.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Ben, did you hear that story that Paul the Deacon
wrote about how the long Beard's a nice apocryphal tale
of how the long Beards may have had some divine
intervention in getting that name.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Oh it's great, Yeah, it's super cool.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
So if you've played the new God of War game,
I guess it's not that new anymore, but apparently if
you get the update, it lets you like replay the
entire game using all of your armor or unless you
like start over again. Just FYI. Really cool game game,
but features Odin and Freya and a lot of this
pantheon of Norse gods that these folks worship. I'll tell
you who else worshiped them was the Winnilly's kind of rivals,
(06:02):
who were the Vandals and they were in a conflict
together because the Winillis refused to pay tribute to the
leaders of the Vandals.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
And have a great quote here. The Winilli were a
smaller tribe too in terms of numbers.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
The Vandals had them out numbered and out knived or whatever.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
Which is a nice bit of foreshadowing there. So the
Winilli said it is better to maintain liberty by arms
than to stain it by the payment of tribute. They
thought it would be shameful to pay these people off. Yeah,
and they said, you know what, if we go down,
we're going to go down swinging, and we're going to
ask our God for help. Godin, who we know is
(06:44):
Odin today? Oh, Goden god An. I never heard it
said that before. That's interesting.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
So yeah, So the Vandals and the Winnelly both appealed
to Odin and said, hey, we would like it very
much if you would grant us a victory, to which
Odin replied he would give a victory to the tribe
he first saw at sunrise. And then apparently the mother
of the two Winnilli leaders, whose names were Ibor and Io,
(07:10):
went to Freya, who was Odin's wife.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
The mother's gimmed their mother.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Exactly, yeah, Gambara, and Freya told Gambara that the women
of the tribe should take their hair and tie it
in front of their faces so they looked like beard
and then appear at sunrise.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
So that they seem to have more numbers than they do,
more soldiers at least. And then Freya also, according to
this story, loads the dice a little bit because she
turns Odin's bed to face east at sunrise and she
wakes him. And because of this, Odin sees the Winili
tribe first and said, who are these long beards?
Speaker 2 (07:48):
And then, according to this article from about history dot com,
Freya responded, well, since you've given their tribe a name,
he should also give them a victory, and that he did.
And you know, if you'd like to believe this legend, I.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Like to believe this one. It's an inspiring story. We
should also note that Paul the Deacon wrote his history
of the Long Beards the Historia Longo Barderum, which is
fun to say. Of course, he wrote this between Slate
seven eighty a d SO seven eighty seven, seven eighty
eight and seven ninety six, so he wrote this far
(08:28):
far after the events had transpired.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
That's right, And I just want to back up what
you said a minute ago. Ben, These women with the
beards tied in front of their faces were added to
the ranks of the men who already sported these long,
bushy beards. They did not want to cut, so it
would make them appear to have greater numbers. And I
don't know, I don't know what Fray's logic was here.
I can't get inside the head of a god.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
It's to be more intimidating. And also, you know, love,
I love the moments in mythology and folklore where someone
plays a trick where cleverness becomes as important as physical strength,
like turning the bed east.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Yeah, but it's also like there's a lot of what
one might consider cheating in some of these stories. Oh sure,
you know, or like being dishonest, but sometimes that's just
having gumption, tenacity, and you know, like you said, loading
the dice a little bit in a clever.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Way, and that's all. You know, that's classic longo bar.
So these are long beards if you prefer, that might
be more fun for some of us. So this is
how the tribes started, and they expanded, possibly with the
help of divine intervention. And as we said, they go
on to for a not insignificant amount of time, rule
(09:39):
a large swath of Italy. And in nineteen eighty five,
we're gonna jump around in time a little bit here
for the sake of the story. In nineteen eighty five,
archaeologists discover a necropolis for the Longo Barred people that
has over two hundred corpses buried in side two hundred
(10:00):
and twenty two. And in these different areas of the
necropolis they find some strange, weird things. They found one
female corpse with two brooches that were used to estimate
the time roughly when these people were interred. They also
(10:20):
found two greyhounds and a horse, but they did not
find the head of the horse.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
Yeah, it wasn't a headless horse, man. It was a
headless horse. Still quite appropriate for Halloween times.
Speaker 1 (10:31):
And that's just the beginning, because, as we learned in
the paper entitled Survival to Amputation in pre Antibiotic Era,
a case study from a Longobarred Necropolis courtesy of Journal
of Anthropological Sciences, this necropolis contained one corpse that was extraordinary.
Speaker 2 (10:53):
Yeah, in a lot of ways.
Speaker 1 (10:54):
Yes, in many ways they found. They found a man
who was between forty and fifty years old. They say
they pegged it at forty seven in the paper, and
his body, even hundreds of years later, showed signs of
extreme hardship and God is putting it very diplomatically, signs
(11:19):
of extreme hardship and privation. His teeth were all kinds
of messed up. The enamel was extremely worn down to
the point where it was damaging his jaw. He had
evidence of plenty of fighting, but most importantly for this story,
archaeologists focused on something that he did not have, which
(11:40):
was part of his right arm.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Not only was he missing an arm, he was missing
an arm in a very unusual way in that the bone,
the nub of the bone where the arm had been amputated,
was worn down and calloused in a very particular way
that was caused by something else they found in in
this grave.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
That's right, They literally buried the lead long enough. Let's
just let's just let it out in the open. This
guy had replaced his arm with a prosthetic blade. He
had a knife hand.
Speaker 2 (12:21):
A knife hand, yeah, And the way it was attached
was with like a kind of a cup that would
attach over the nub, and then the blade was fast
fashioned onto the cup. I guess it was like a
leather cup of some kind. And then there were straps
harnesses that would fasten it on. And you remember you
mentioned a minute ago, Ben that he had some significant
(12:41):
wear and tear to his teeth. One of the ideas
is that it was because he was constantly using his
teeth to tighten the straps on the knife knife arm.
Speaker 1 (12:52):
Yeah, as he was going through and dealing ungodly amounts
of damage to his enemies. You can in the paper
see up photographs of the fellow's teeth. We don't know
a ton of details about this man. His name is
lost to history. We don't know necessarily what he did
in his free time, what his dreams were, what did
(13:14):
he have children, and so on. But we do know
a ton of things based entirely on the state of
his body. We know, for instance, that the orientation of
his amputated forearm, the orientation of the fracture that occurred,
indicates that it was an angled cut by a single blow,
(13:36):
made probably from a blunt instrument. And this amputation was
the result of one of three things. An amputation through injury,
and combat, which has its own fascinating rabbit hole to
follow a medical intervention. Maybe he had a wound and
it got.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Infected or some sort of judicial punishment, right how I
put it in the paper, I believe.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
Yes, exactly. So he either gotten a beef, got sick,
or or broke the law.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I'm no you know, forensics guy or anything. But it
does seem like the cleanness of the cut would indicate
that he was, you know, had it positioned in such
a way to receive the blow right, like on some
sort of like hard surface or maybe held down or
you know something. It doesn't seem like it would be
that clean if he just got a giant axe swung
(14:28):
at him in battle and got the arm lobbed off.
Speaker 1 (14:31):
Right. And so there's an interesting thing I've been reading
about for something unrelated to this show that ties him
very well, and it's the problem of fighting on a
battlefield in these ancient days. You know, we see all
these depictions in fiction and in historical accounts of groups
of people just yelling and running into each other until
they collide in blood, sweat and violence. But is it possible,
(14:56):
this is the question was looking at. Is it possible
that some people just faked their death. It just like
laid down and waited for the fighting to stop. The
answer is yes, and that's why soldiers from either side
would go through after a conflict to make sure the
dead were dead.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
You've seen that in movies. They just go around just
stabbing the piles of bodies, you know.
Speaker 1 (15:18):
And in some cases it was considered an act of
mercy rather than an act of malevolence, because think about it,
this is a time with no antibiotics. This is a
time where medicine is often administrated through a spiritual leader, right,
rather than some sort of doctor. And additionally, this is
(15:38):
the biggest point for the idea that this guy may
have been injured in battle. Additionally, every time that someone
is attempting to recover from an injury, especially one of
this magnitude, that means that a community of other people
has to take care of them.
Speaker 2 (15:56):
Wait a minute, so he's saying. The takeaway from this
weird knife arm Doude is that like people in his
lifetime were nice to.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
Him, at least because he also the analysis of his teeth,
the strontium levels in his teeth proved that he was
not from this area. He was a stranger in a
strange land at the time.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
And don't you think that forty or fifty years old
is a pretty decent lifetime in this day and age.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
And as you said, from the callous, from the calluses
and the wear on the on the amputated limb, we
know that this happened a long time before he died.
He lived this way for years. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:34):
I don't think we can stress enough how important it
is to think about the idea that they'd had no
antibiotics and no real way to intervene and stop the
blood flow other than just to like rub it with
some sort of poultice or like, you know, physically bind
it and keep an eye on the guy and make
sure that he had stayed clean. Otherwise he would have
(16:56):
just gone septic and kicked it in no time.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah. Absolutely. In the paper they say quote the longo
barred male survived the loss of a forearm even though
antibiotics were not readily available. This highlights a community level
effort to provide an ideal setting for healing to take place.
This suggests a clean environment with intensive care during the
early stages of healing, with the ability to prevent death
(17:18):
from blood loss and specific herbal balms were available to
the Longo barred people for this purpose. And they go
back and forth arguing the different cases that this could
have been combat and then he was saved by his community,
or that it was a judicial punishment where they said, okay,
(17:39):
maybe you have stolen something, so now you lose your hand,
but we don't want to kill you.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
But if that was the case, why would they go
out of their way to keep him from bleeding out?
Speaker 1 (17:48):
That's the mystery, right, and I am tempted to place
this injury in the realm of combat or traumatic accident, because,
as we mentioned, the Longo bar invaded in five sixty
eight a d right, and that's when they began to
take over Italy. And it looks like this death. This
(18:11):
guy was interred in this necropolis not too long after,
so he was definitely alive and kicking and maybe even
had both of his hands during the invasion. It's quite
possible that they took care of him because he was
helping with this takeover, with this regional takeover. By the way,
if you're wondering why the Winilly became the Longo Bards
(18:34):
and moved down south like this, the current best guess
is it was to seek better resources because they had
overpopulated their native land.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Unless we paint a picture of these Lombards as being
entirely like barbaric or some kind of like completely unhinged
warring you know, psychotic hun like force. I mean they
eventually when they kind of settled, they they built a
bunch of incredible architecture. They became dukes and had a
(19:06):
very very robust system of government and created these territories
called duchies. And that's a term that was used moving forward.
I believe Ben that is true.
Speaker 1 (19:16):
Noal, the term duchy did stick around. The Kingdom of
the Lombards, also known as the Kingdom of Italy at
the time, was established, as you said, in the later
part of the sixth century. And they they knew that
this kind of game was going by King of the
(19:38):
Hill rules, not the not the cartoon, but the actual game.
What I mean is they knew that there would be
people trying to oust them from their new kingdom. One
of the groups that vehemently opposed them was the Byzantine Empire.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
Yeah, you had them. You had the Celts, the Celts, Celts, Celts,
the Celts, the that's the worst, the worst one. Then
you had the Visi Goths ors. I like to refer
to them as just the Goths, you know, it's uh.
Speaker 1 (20:06):
And then you had the Franks, and they were the
they were the big bads, they were the ultimate bosses,
the Franks. They're the ones who conquered the kingdom, right,
it's true.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
And yeah, the Franks. Ben. I don't know if you've
heard of this little guy named Charlemagne the Great. You know,
you don't get the name the Great unless you're pretty
bad ass.
Speaker 1 (20:23):
I'm skeptical of ye, that's fair.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
But it was like the big boss, Like you said,
he was the big bad and he is the dude
that ultimately led to the downfall of the the the longbeards.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
Yeah. He even after after the Franks conquered most of
the kingdom, he even adopted the title King of the Lombards.
And the one city they never managed to gain control
of was Benevento, the most southern of the Lombard duchies.
(20:57):
So at the time, at the time that this entire empire,
Rosen finally fell, the Kingdom of the Lombards was the
last hold out, the last minor Germanic kingdom in Europe
other than the Frankish Empire, and we should mention too.
There's a good question of how lombard these people were,
(21:20):
or at least their rulers by the time they fell,
because over the more than one hundred years that they
governed this area of the world, they gradually assimilated to
Roman culture. They would get Roman titles, they would start
naming their kids Roman names, they would start practicing Roman traditions.
So at what level did their assimilation just make them
(21:43):
Romans who historically were Lombards, You know what I mean exactly,
But no one was at that level of PC at
this time. Of course, they were like die longbeards, and
they almost got our guy knife man.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
He would have been a beast on the battlefield.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Can you imagine? There's some great details in here about well,
they still are speculating about how his injury occur, but
there are some great details about his life after the injury.
As we said, the teeth on the side of his
mouth that he used to tighten the strap were we
cannot overemphasize this. They were terribly worn down, like the
pulp was out of his teeth. Someone had to extract
(22:22):
some of his teeth so he could eat.
Speaker 2 (22:23):
Yeah, I think he actually like had some sort of
serious infection because he ruptured the pulp sack, which is
a thing apparently in one of his teeth, and that
could have been fatal.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
This guy really dodged some serious bullets. Yeah, he won
a brutal lottery for sure. We also know that he didn't. Okay,
here's the question that I immediately had at least, and
I don't know if you've had it as well, ridiculous historians.
Did he survive long enough to use his blade arm
in battle?
Speaker 2 (22:53):
Well, one would think one would imagine. Here's the thing though.
The speculation is like he maybe even used this to
like eat, But I don't buy that. Well, why not
have a fork arm if you're going to use it
to eat? I mean, a blade arm is clearly designed
to slice brothers.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
And we know from the level of metal working that
was available at the time that they could make something
with times or yeah, it was they could make something
that wasn't just a blade arm. They chose blade arm,
and I'm just I'm not I'm not being completely prejudiced here,
but I'm saying that choice implies some things.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
Yeah, there's there's intention, there's the implication. It's like it's
like Ash and the Evil Dead. He made himself a
chainsaw arm, right, you know, with which to slice demons
the undead. I mean he didn't make himself, you know,
some other non lethal type of arm, like a mannequin
hand or like a flagpole off a flagpole arm.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Yeah, you know, he didn't make anything like that.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
He wasn't going to be a crossing garden. He was
going to be a demon's.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Layer, and we know that with knife Man. It appears
that he did not whatever he did with this blade arm,
it appears that he didn't lift heavy weights with it.
But surprise, surprise, that would be kind of difficult anyway,
just to keep the prosthetic on.
Speaker 2 (24:10):
He's saying that his arm was slightly like atropheet or something. No,
we're saying that we.
Speaker 1 (24:14):
Can tell from the strain that like obviously his left hand,
the one he still has, is going to be the
new dominant hand.
Speaker 2 (24:22):
Right, But so it wasn't like as evenly distributed between.
Speaker 1 (24:26):
The two right, so we can tell that we can
tell that he wasn't attempting to or did not successfully
for long periods of time lift heavy things, But.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
What about slashing?
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Slashings totally different because that's more of an impact, right
than a strain.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
Oh, I guess that's true.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
So we would we would have to ask ourselves. They
don't really address it in the paper, but we'd have
to ask ourselves whether there's some sort of research we
can do that would let us know whether he used
it in combat.
Speaker 2 (24:58):
You don't think if he did enough slash and stabbing
that he wouldn't have a big muscle on that arm.
Speaker 1 (25:02):
Right, wouldn't you imagine? I would think so. Yeah. But
then also, you know, we have to remember a lot
of the stuff where a lot of stuff we're discovering
with the prosthetic is based on guesswork, because a lot
of the leather has already decayed. This guy's been in
the ground for a long time. I wish we knew
his name.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
You know, I'm fine with knife Man.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
I'm fine with knife Man.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
He could be a boss in the Mega Man games.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
He could. That's a good call. He probably also, knowing
the way that nicknames and stuff worked at that time,
he probably also had a name that was something like that.
It was something like, you know, Gilbert knife Hand or
Gilbert of the knife, Mac the Knife, Yeah, similar, similar, right,
although Mac the Knife did not have a knife for
(25:47):
a hand. You don't know that, pretty pretty sure.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
It's not in the song.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
It's not in the song, which they probably would have
mentioned that, right, you'd think, you'd think. But this is
our spooky tale for the week and somewhat inspiring because,
as we said at the beginning, it shows us that,
regardless of how a community might be portrayed in history,
love conquers all. Love conquers all. It certainly heals it,
(26:14):
heals wounds.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
That's time.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
That was probably a combination of both time and love,
and you have to marvel sometimes. That's just how how
tough these people were, you know what I mean? Like
I freak out if I have a cough for more
than two weeks.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
So do you have any prosthetic limbs that are lethal
weapons of any kind? Write in let us know, send
us picks. We're interested.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
Oh I tell you're asking me.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
No, I know, I know you don't have any.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
All right, man, man, let's keep moving. Yes, how can
you find us? You can, We're so glad you asked.
You can find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter. We'd like
to give a special shout out to everybody's favorite community
page on the old f B that is Ridiculous Historians,
where you can shoot the breeze, see some pretty top
(27:05):
tier memes and give us suggestions for episodes you would
like to hear in the future. As always, thanks to
our super producers, especially to you super producer Paul for
filling in today.
Speaker 2 (27:17):
Yeah, thanks to Alex Williams who composed this theme. Thanks
to the one and only irreplaceable yet occasionally replaceable super
producer Casey pegram here in spirit. Thanks to our research
peeps Eves, Jeffcoat and Christopher Hasiotis, who we love dearly.
Who just love those folks. They're the best.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
He's a great guy.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
You know.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
He's a very talented food critic as well.
Speaker 2 (27:38):
I do know that. And Eves is also on a
show called Afropunk Solution Sessions and a show called stuff
Mom Never told you should check those out.
Speaker 1 (27:46):
Check them both out. We'd love to have Eves on
the show one day soon too, definitely, so spoiler alert
with that. And you know what, Noel, thanks tonife Man
for making it through the tough days and giving us
an inspiring story. And thanks to you sniping around
Speaker 2 (28:10):
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