September 27, 2025 • 33 mins
During Europe's period of witchcraft hysteria, one enterprising (and failed) witch hunter sought to bolster his reputation by creating an authoritative text on the existence, discovery and persecution of witches. While it may seem silly now, the Malleus Maleficarum was a runaway success, with thousands of copies inundating European society even while various officials warned against treating it as a reliable source. Join Ben, Noel and Casey as they learn more about The Hammer of the Witches.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
So Villa Ridiculous Historians. As you know, nobody fact checked this.
We used to be witches and witch hunters before we
started podcasting.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
That's how we met. Yeah, we're a regular van helsing.
Between the two of us, we create one whole van
helsing exactly.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, this is a classic episode as we're moving toward
the autumnal Halloween season that we wanted to share with you.
It is about one of the most famous books about
hunting witches.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And as you might imagine, it has an incredible name,
the Malleus Mela.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Fakara, The Hammer of the Witches. Hell.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, let's get to it.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's cut straight
(01:14):
to the chase with some fairly terrifying numbers. During the
early modern period of European history that stretches from around
fourteen fifty to seventeen fifty, somewhere in the neighborhood of
one hundred thousand people, the overwhelming majority of them being women,
were tried for the crime of witchcraft, and about half
(01:35):
of these folks fifty thousand, were executed, usually by being
burned alive. But why man, why Because they were suspected
of being witches nol Ah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yes, the great witch panic of those years you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, the great three hundred year witch panic.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, that I was a big one.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's a big one. That was a big one.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It was. That's why it's the great witch panic. And
with the mediocre, the other lesser witch panic.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Hey, let's give a shout out to our super producer,
Casey Pegram, who, too our knowledge, has never in fact
hunted witches. That's true, right, Casey, that is correct.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yes, no witch hunting in my past, Casey on the
case that's good. That's good to know because it's not
a very noble pursuit. No. Yeah, we read about it
in history, some of the most famous ones being like
the Salem witch Trials, the one that was famously depicted
in The Crucible, the play by Arthur Miller, and it
(02:38):
typically involves a bunch of over zealous religious nuts looking
for something that just is not there.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right. It's strange because I had studied this in the past.
There's a book I want to recommend called The Devil
in the Shape of a Woman. Witchcraft in colonial New England,
and one of the most interesting things about the witch
hunting hysteria and the practice that continued for so long
in Central Europe, well most of Europe, and in the
(03:09):
colonial US or what would become the US, is that
in many cases there were people who genuinely believe that
some occult or supernatural event was occurring. But there were
also people who were prosecuting these cases out of a
more cynical self interested motivation, because you see, if you
(03:29):
could prove that someone was a witch in a lot
of jurisdictions, their belongings and their estate would.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Later go to you. I did not know that, ben.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So its a way to disenfranchise women.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh not only disenfranchised women, it was a way to
persecute women for their sexuality. And a lot of the
language in the book we're going to talk about today,
the Melias Maleficarum, revolves around women being temptresses in some
way or some how using their sexuality to lure men
(04:03):
to be tools of Satan, in some way making them
more open to Satanic influence. So it's in large part
a way of punishing women for their sexuality because a
lot of these men were either used to just controlling
women in the form of a wife or in the
form of being some sort of higher up in a
community and having expecting to be kowtowed too at all
(04:26):
times members of the opposite sex in any sense that
a woman had some kind of power that they could
not understand it and maybe made them uncomfortable, they wanted
to kind of squash it.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Absolutely, absolutely, and not even kind of. They definitively wanted
this status quo he had established to remain the same.
The crime of witchcraft, as it was defined during this
period of time, consisted of two main sort of branches.
The first was the obvious one, the practice of harmful magic,
(05:01):
using some sort of mysterious other worldly power to bring
misfortune on other people in your community. This could be
the infliction of a disease. Everybody gets sick. Let's blame
that a elderly person who lives alone over by the
edge of the woods. It could be the death of
human beings or livestock. It could also often going back
(05:23):
to your note about sexuality, knowal, it could be the
crime of making men sexually impotent, and so they're like, oh,
I can't get aroused anymore. You know what, It's not me,
It's that elderly person who lives alone on the other
side of town.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, but didn't have to be elderly at all. Right,
it could be anyone.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It could be anyone. And these these hunts were incredibly
extensive at times. In Germany. In fifteen eighty nine, in
a place named Kuedlenburg, one hundred and thirty three women
were executed in one day and there was a witch
hunt fifteen eighty five. Germany is very bad about this.
That left two German villages we get this, only one
(06:06):
female resident each.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
It's insane.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So that's the that's the context we want to lay
out here. This stuff was tragic, horrific, and looking back
from our time in the modern day, it could seem
like some sort of group insanity. But we have to
remember the people who were prosecuting these cases didn't just
(06:30):
believe that they were acting logically. They wanted to, I guess,
formalize this, and that leads us to the book you mentioned, Noel.
The proper name is what malleus maleficarum, that's right, and
also known as the hammer of the witches.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Or in German. I love this, de hexin hamma. There
we go, de hexinama hexa.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So what is this?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It is, as you said, ben a codify book of
all of these things that we just mentioned. Okay, so
the writers of this book didn't just invent this stuff
out of whole cloth. It was kind of in the
zeitgeist already. Witches do exist in the Bible, right, I
mean this idea of black magic or of you know, Antichrist,
sort of some kind of anti god entity.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Right, sorcery as an infernal power?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Exactly? Is the word witch in the Bible?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Ben It's a fascinating question, no, because there are various
kinds of things that we call witchcraft and divination in
the in the Hebrew Bible, and it's generally mentioned in
a disapproving tone. But the problem that we run into
is a problem of translation, because somebody might translate something
(07:48):
that just says like sorcery or soothsaying into witchcraft.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah. I've got one here from Leviticus nineteen thirty one
that uses the word spiritists. It says, do not turn
to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be
defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. Or
from Chronicles thirty three six, he sacrificed his children in
the valley of ben Hennon practiced divination and witchcraft sought
(08:12):
omens and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil
in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger. So
to your point, been translation, but very interesting to google
this and see, Yes, witchcraft is in that form in
the Bible in such ways.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
If not the W word itself, the privuses, yeah, the
tone like Galatians five nineteen mentions it. It's there are
several places where you can find Bible verses about witchcraft.
But to your point, Noel, which I think is a
very important point, the authors of this book, who are
(08:50):
understood to be two Dominicans, a guy named Johann Sprenger
and a guy named Heinrich Kramer, they weren't just saying,
let's give people our pace of witches. They were pulling,
as you said, from a tradition and a system of
beliefs that it existed long before them. The book, or
the document as some people prefer to call it, was
(09:13):
written around fourteen eighty six, and when they were writing it,
they were essentially compiling all these other things into sort
of a one stop shop.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
But not without their own editorializing. Right, That's a big
part of it, because this guy, Heinrich Kramer, was sort
of like a failed witch hunter, and he never really
got the respect that he felt he was due and
was kind of a bitter man, and decided he wanted
to spread the word and kind of get people thinking
(09:45):
about these things that were very dear to him, persecuting
potentially wicked women for whatever reason. You know, he wanted
to influence that and kind of have his say on
how people were going to look at this, and he
put all this in a book along with his partner
Jacob Spranger. M hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That's correct. And there's an interesting part of Kramer's motivation
that we have to examine here. You know how some
unscrupulous people on a get rich quick scheme will self
publish a book on Amazon and then use that book
as sort of a bona fide or a mark of
(10:23):
their own credibility, totally expertise, Like, you know, the best
way to become a self help expert is just to
write a book that purports to teach people to help themselves.
Kramer also wanted, in addition to warning the general public,
or at least the literate public, against the danger of witchcraft,
he also wanted this book to give him the official
authority to hunt witches. And again, this guy has somewhat
(10:49):
of a myopic focus, but it also has some alarmist
nature to it. It doesn't. Over the what two hundred
and fifty six pages, it attempts to do several things. First,
it wants to prove that witches and witchcraft are real.
Don't be deceived, they are real. They are out to
(11:09):
get you. Second, building from that and says these witches
are real, they are infernal, they work with demonic forces,
so therefore they must be killed. And then third, it
wants to convince readers that not only are witches real,
not only are they dangerous, but they are signed of
the apocalypse, the end of the world.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
And it does a really interesting thing that creates a
real conundrum for when these witch trials start going completely bonkers.
It points out that the Bible says there are witches. Therefore,
if you don't believe in witches, you are an accessory
to their evil crimes. Yeah, similar to that old Edmund
(11:50):
Burke quote the only thing necessary for the triumph of
evil is for good men to do nothing, only even
further right, Because this is literally saying if you think
it means you know, if you're standing up for the
truth and saying that this is not real, this there
is no witchcraft, or this person definitely is not a witch.
Then they can accuse you of being a heretic yourself
(12:12):
simply for not believing what you're supposed to believe.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
If you're not with us, you're against this, totally against us.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
So if we divide the book, we talked about kind
of three aims of the book, we can also divide
the work into three rough sections. The first is, as
we said, this explanation that witches are real, they are dangerous.
The second is a guide for the experts the clergy
on how to recognize a witch, and they get pretty specific,
(12:45):
you know, like devil's marks, which could be anything from
a mole to a scar, right certain types of behavior
or things that occur in their communities. And then the
third part, the final part, is a legal manual for
how to properly accuse and persecute a witch and if
finding them guilty spoiler alert, very few people were found
(13:07):
innocent to give them the death penalty. And in the work,
there's a really interesting bit of double think here because
the authors say that you shouldn't be deceived if someone
appears to be weak, they say, in fact, the weak
people are the most dangerous witches. And what this meant
is that a lot of times people who lived on
(13:28):
the fringes of society because they were say mentally ill,
or they were very poor, they became the number one targets.
And then also we have to face the facts. I'm
pulling some of this from a really excellent podcast called
fifteen Minute History, with an episode on witch hunting in Europe.
(13:50):
The guests on this episode is guy named John E. Green,
professor in history at the University of Texas and Austin,
and he points out that a lot of times persecuting
witches made things even worse for the community because people
who would be considered witches would be like medical practitioners
(14:13):
literally the only healthcare in the village or in the town,
or midwives and you know, let's say a birth goes
wrong through no fault of the midwife, if you know,
depending on their luck, they may be accused of purposely
killing the child. Or if you're treating someone who has
a disease and they don't get better because hey, it's
(14:33):
an incurable disease, then they flip the script and say
they're not better, not because leprosy is incurable at the time,
but because you're a witch.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
What a horrible position to be in to literally being
the first line of defense for helping people and opening
yourself up to this kind of scrutiny and ridicule. It
reminds me of that scene we're talking about the tests
and like the things that were contained in this book,
which is also the kinds of tortures and how now
you should go about torturing a witch to get a
proper confession. But it reminds me of that scene in
(15:05):
Monty Python the Holy Grail where they're trying to see
if it's a witch, and they're like, does wood sink
in water? No, it floats, So then throw her in
the water and see if she floats. What else floats
in water? A duck? And then the king is like,
so if she weighs the same as a duck, then
she's a witch. It's like this kind of circular logic.
You know, this is satire, obviously, but that's the kind
(15:27):
of stuff that was in this book.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
In this book, although maybe it started out as somewhat
of a specialized tool, this book becomes wildly popular, right
it goes through what twenty eight editions. I think there
are more than thirty thousand copies circulated throughout Europe.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I think it's sold more copies than any book
but the Bible up until sixteen seventy.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Eight, which is insane, especially when you consider what a
pain it was to make a book at that time.
So this also get some endorsement from the papacy itself.
The Pope issues a papal bull, it's document that the
Pope signs themselves stating the official church opinion.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And this is pre publication though, right, It's like he
kind of sanctioned them to do this research. And this
bull was included in the in the printing.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yes, yeah, and this book it's a hexellen Hammo is
the only thanks man. This book is the only work
of its kind to receive the official approval of the
Catholic Church. Now, people will tell you that there's some
fairly convincing, circumstantial evidence that Kramer bribed the Pope to
(16:44):
condone the Hammer of the Witches.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah. I also read somewhere that it's not even specifically
about the Hammer of the Witches, that they sort of
almost like fudged it a little bit to make it
seem like it was more about that, but it was
actually a little broader and not specifically condoning everything that
they were putting forth in this book. But it's like
(17:06):
the best New York Times book review you could possibly get,
or the best celebrity endorsement you can ever imagine having,
is having this thing included inside your book jacket cover.
Pope says, good to go. You know, this is this
is the this is the one.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, it's kind of like having writing a book about
how to be a better person and having h an
endorsement from mister Rogers or something. Not quite because we're
talking about God, you know, in divinity. But while we're
talking about fudging this, there's an interesting thing. We we
mentioned Jacob Springer or Johann Springer as he's often called.
(17:44):
He was in later editions mentioned as a collaborator, but
nowadays a lot of historians believe that his name was
just added as kind of an endorsement. Yeah, that's right,
that's right. I read that too, and that he didn't
actually have much to do with the creation of the book,
sort of like how Quentin Tarantino air quote presented the
(18:08):
man with the Iron Fist directed by Rizza, and Tarantino
didn't really have anything to do with how he hung out.
I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure he They.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Probably had n't share with his name on it on set.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And he probably made a rant about something in pop culture.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
But that's just what he does.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, that's just kind of how Quinton is totally.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
So what was the bone? What were the bona fides
of Springer? Again, Ben, I'm sorry if you said it
just helped me out. I want to understand a little better.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, he was dean of the University of Cologne in Germany,
and he was also a friar of some note.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And here's the thing the bull itself, it was more
intended to confirm powers that inquisitors, or that a guy
named Henry instatoris and James Springer, who were inquisitors, already
have to quote deal with persons of every class and
every form of crime, for example, with witchcraft as being heresy.
(19:04):
And it called upon the Bishop of Strasburg to lend
this is a quote from the from the Bull, lend
inquisitors all possible support. And the reason that Kramer enlisted
Springer was because Spranger's name is actually in the bul
but it had nothing to do with the book. It
was more about seeking out witchcraft and prosecuting it in general,
(19:29):
because the law had changed where I believe it used
to be more a church specifically a church duty to
seek these things out, but then it kind of became
more of a municipal thing. And when we start seeing
the crazy panic of witch hunt pandemonium, that's because it
became a lot easier to do.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, that's that's the thing, and I think that's that's
well put. We would be remiss if we didn't mention
that one of the things clear condoned by the book
is torture.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Oh yeah, horrific torture. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Kramer's favorite was something called the strepato, which is a
device that attaches to the wrist and pulls them upwards
so the victims hang by their arms until their arms dislocate.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, anytime we talk about this kind of stuff, I
just get the hebe gv's so bad, Like the thumb screws,
the ones that would literally shred your hands, you know,
by like these vices that your hands would go in.
And there was one that was some kind of like
helmet you would put on with like a drill that
would go right into your forehead. Just barbaric stuff. And
(20:37):
another thing that was in the in the book was
a caveat saying you don't have to tell the person
you're accusing who accused them.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Right. It also recommends, oddly enough, deception in order to
obtain confessions. So there's a quote here where it says,
and when the implements of torture been prepared to judge,
both in person and through other good men zealous in
the faith, tries to persuade the prisoner to confess the
truth freely. But if he will not confess, he bid attendance,
(21:09):
make the prisoner fast to the strepado or other implement
of torture. The attendants obey forthwith yet with feigned agitation.
Then at the prayer of some of those present, the
prisoner is loosed again and taken aside, and once more
persuaded to confess, being led to believe that he will,
in that case not be put to death. That's why
(21:29):
so many people confessed, because they got tortured for some
amount of time, and then they got pulled aside and
someone said, hey, look, if you just come clean about this,
stop it can end. Now, of course you don't have
to die.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
And we already know this about military interrogation, that interrogation
under torture does not yield results that are reliable because
people will say anything if you'll stop doing the horrible
thing to them.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Right exactly, And that's I mean, it's the I hate
to say it. Tortures of tale is old as time.
And didn't they also talk about the quote unquote more
carnal inherent nature of women.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Absolutely, that's what we're talking about the top of the show. Yeah,
I feel like that's something it's inherent in this whole
persecution of women for witchcraft. But yes, it carries over
into this codified you know, book of all of these
different techniques. I was watching a documentary on this book
on History Channel, and I forget the guy's name, but
he was a scholar who specifically studies this work, and
(22:31):
he pointed out all of these very charged words that
were used in the text, the words that didn't have
to use and they were Latin obviously, but words that
would mean something like disgusting or filth, you know, as
opposed to just you know, not good, like very charged
language or a word that meant a temptress or some
(22:53):
kind of adulteress, you know, where it was like, this
is what these women will turn men into through their
you know, witchly wiles or whatever. So very charged language,
very much within it with a position, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And additionally, it's important to note there's a different definition
of seduction at play here. It's completely possible, for instance,
for someone to have sexually assaulted an innocent person in
a village and then say, I'm a good Christian man.
She seduced me through the use of witchcraft, of course,
(23:30):
so in addition to me attacking her as a punishment
her powers, she should be put to death.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
It reminds me of the story we did about women
being incarcerated for having sexually transmitted diseases, where that was
flipped as well and used by men to treat like
men would give women these sexually transmitted diseases and then
act like they had given it to them, or use
it to ostracize them in some way. There was one
story I believe where a man like left a woman
(23:56):
on the side of the road or something like that.
It's another one of these really fed up power dynamics
that is again tail as old as time, and we
see it all codified in this book here, like this
is the way to do it.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
There's a pretty interesting argument from Atlas Obscure by Sarah
Lascau about about the hammer of the Witches, which, you know,
while we're at it, shouldn't it be the hammer for
the witches? Just grammatically the witches do not have the power, right.
So what they found was that The Malice Maleficarum was
(24:34):
once thought to be the handbook for witch hunters, but
more recent research has found that maybe it wasn't as
influential as we initially thought, because you're right, you know
all that Papal Bull from fourteen eighty four and the
book was written in fourteen eighty six, published in fourteen
eighty seven, that Papal Bull allows witchcraft prosecutions, but as
(24:59):
you said, doesn't specifically say this is.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
The book, but it named that guy Springer, which is
the reason that Kramer needed to have him as his
co author, because that allowed him to use that as
a manipulation. And I think we've made it clear. But
this thing caught on like wildfire and spread even to
like the New World, you know, which is where the
Salem stuff comes in. I mean, this became a thing,
and it was literally this like best seller, but not
(25:22):
just one that people were talking about around the water cooler.
This actually caused the deaths of what was that figure
at the top of the show bends the women.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
The early modern period, approximately one hundred thousand and fifty
thousand of whom that's excuse me, I've ever stated the
number of no, you got it, you got it.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I think I said hundreds of them, but hundreds of
thousands of women who were persecuted, and a lesser number
who were actually killed, but in the most gruesome and
horrific ways.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And to the point about the perceived importance of the book,
as it was catching on with the public, it looks
like some members of the clergy were becoming increasingly, I
don't know, skeptical of the book would be, oddly enough,
a good word. Leaders of the Spanish Inquisition didn't put
too much stock in the Hammer, and by at least
(26:12):
the fifteen thirties they were actively warning their own officials
away from it because maybe they saw it as sort
of a personal mission of Kramer's, maybe a little more
self interest than public interest. But it was still influential
enough that people would commission specific copies of it, and
(26:32):
I guess it is important for us to mention that
while the vast majority of people prosecuted for witchcraft were women,
there were dudes in there too, and they were also
put to death. Absolutely, it was kind of anything goes.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I've got a couple of resources that I'd like to
plug really quick, sure, and I'm interested in finding out
more about this stuff. I know you and I both
love the a twenty four film The Witch. I feel
like that displays these attitudes very strongly. There's a young
girl character who kind of represents that sexuality that we're
talking about, and there's some kind of telling shots that
(27:06):
show that that's not only an issue for the man,
it's an issue for the mother, because the mother is
almost even as much threatened by that as any you know,
authority figure male might be. And that becomes a theme,
and this idea of a witch harming crops or livestock
(27:26):
is represented, and just the kind of idea of this
witch being is it real? Is it not real? Is
it just religious zelotry? Run a muck. That's the thing
that's fun about that movie.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
But there's also the subtle argument for air got poisoning.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
That's right. It's right that they're all hallucinating on some
kind of poisoned crop, poisoned corn that has hootinogenic effects,
which is one of the possible explanations for the Salem
witch trials, which here in How Stuff Works. Our buddy
Matt works on a show about Salem called Unobscure with
Aaron Mankey of lore fame, and our pal Alex Williams,
(28:05):
who composed our theme.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
And now, thankfully this book is surprise, surprise, no longer
considered an authoritative an authoritative guide to persecuting people for
perceived supernatural abilities.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, you don't hear so much about people burning witches anymore, thankfully,
But you know there are still which hunts of other varieties,
and all this stuff is very interesting to learn from
and apply to modern day politics and things, which is
something that they parallel in that show. And I'm scured
that we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
And for his part, Kramer kept writing and preaching until
he died in Bohemia in fifteen o five. His gambit
to increase his reputation, or maybe to justify his failed
attempts at which hunting did seem to succeed because we
(29:01):
said the Papal bull on persecution witchcraft was published in
the fourteen eighty seven edition. We didn't mention that by
fourteen ninety the Church had officially condemned the Hammer of
the Witches. Was it because they were genuinely concerned for
the damage it was doing to communities? Or was it
(29:24):
because he was late with yet another bribe that we
don't know?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Well, what we do know is that there was rampant
corruption in the Catholic Church and the papacy, and you know,
likely still is given what we know about some of
the scandals that keep coming to light. So it's uh,
you know, the more things change and all that. And
this brings us to where's the silver lining here? Yeah,
we need a silver lining. I have a comic recommendation.
Oh good, let's see. That's why the comic recommendation is helpful.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It's our insurance plan. Yeah yeah, okay. So I'm a
fan of murky and dark stuff, and I would like
to recommend today the commic Sir Edward Gray, Witchfinder. So Noel,
you you know hell Boy and maybe Baltimore and all
those other things.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I know hell Boy.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Okay, So Witchfinder is a spin off from hell Boy,
and it concerns a guy named Sir Edward Gray, who
is the Queen's official expert on all things supernatural because
of various interactions he has had saving people from the
(30:32):
nefarious activities of witches. Edward Gray does not spoiler alert
use the Hammer of the Witches the hex Mohammah. But
it's a great story as a matter of fact. Man,
if you want to borrow some of the trades, I
have them.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Sure, as soon as I return Locking Key to you.
Oh that's right, can't be double dutch to you. Comic
book wise, Oh, Lock and Key is so great. But
that's my comic recommendation for today. As far as we know,
there is not Thank Goodness a graphic novel adaptation of
the Nalius Maleficara. I think the Constantine comics are really fun.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
That's great, and it involves a.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Lot of different supernatural exploration and things like that. I've
always been a huge fan of Sandman and Neil Gamon's work,
and Constantine was in that briefly, and he has his
own series that's really great and has Witchcraft and Devilry
and uh Lucifer and all of these great deities, but
they have real personality, so that that's a fun one.
(31:31):
I wouldn't bother with the movie with Keanu Reeves.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I would. I would watch the movie after reading the comics,
so just recognize it's a very different thing.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
And I have heard that the TV series that got
canceled was okay, but I was I didn't see it.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I liked it. To whomever they picked to be the
lead actor for that the protagonist.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
He's got to be real Cockney. He can't be Keanu.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Reeves genuinely looks like Johnny Constitute.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, cont of Reeves is a weird choice. Here's a
weird choice. I hear he's a great guy though he
seems like a lovely dude. That's sad. Keanu on the
bench meme is is just delightful. There we go.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Now we're inting on a better note.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
We just had to make ourselves cheer up. I think
that's what it was. We hope that it worked for
you as well. Ridiculous Historians, thank you so much for
tuning in. Thanks to our super producer and avowed opponent
of witch hunts, Casey Pegrew. Thanks to our research pal
Gabe Lucier for hipping us to some of the details
in this kind of depressing but incredible story.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
We already thanked Alex, we did, but we get to
think you do it again.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
It was weird thinking him out of context.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
No, I think it was great. Still, I feel like
we should let him know that we still do this
because you said he just nodded once.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
That's just what he does.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
He's just he's a nodter.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
He's a nodter.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I mean that as a compliment.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
But both he and our long suffering buddy Matt both
work on this Salem show Unobscured with Aaron Mangy, So
check that out if you want to do a deep
dive into the Salem witch trials and how it kind
of dovetails a bit with American politics right now. It's
a very interesting show. Thanks to you, Ben for being
a friend.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Thanks to you Noel, and thanks to everyone in society
ever who decided to stop burning people alive. Yeah yeah,
I think that deserves it. Thank you, and stay tuned
for our next episode. We can't tell you what it
is yet for various reasons.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Is it because we don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Primarily it's because we haven't picked one yet, but we
can promise that. We hope it will be interested.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
It'll be an episode. See it n folks. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
So Villa Ridiculous Historians. As you know, nobody fact checked this.
We used to be witches and witch hunters before we
started podcasting.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
That's how we met. Yeah, we're a regular van helsing.
Between the two of us, we create one whole van
helsing exactly.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
Yes, this is a classic episode as we're moving toward
the autumnal Halloween season that we wanted to share with you.
It is about one of the most famous books about
hunting witches.
Speaker 2 (00:33):
And as you might imagine, it has an incredible name,
the Malleus Mela.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
Fakara, The Hammer of the Witches. Hell.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Yeah, let's get to it.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Let's cut straight
(01:14):
to the chase with some fairly terrifying numbers. During the
early modern period of European history that stretches from around
fourteen fifty to seventeen fifty, somewhere in the neighborhood of
one hundred thousand people, the overwhelming majority of them being women,
were tried for the crime of witchcraft, and about half
(01:35):
of these folks fifty thousand, were executed, usually by being
burned alive. But why man, why Because they were suspected
of being witches nol Ah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Yes, the great witch panic of those years you mentioned.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yeah, the great three hundred year witch panic.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Yeah, that I was a big one.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's a big one. That was a big one.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
It was. That's why it's the great witch panic. And
with the mediocre, the other lesser witch panic.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
Hey, let's give a shout out to our super producer,
Casey Pegram, who, too our knowledge, has never in fact
hunted witches. That's true, right, Casey, that is correct.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Yes, no witch hunting in my past, Casey on the
case that's good. That's good to know because it's not
a very noble pursuit. No. Yeah, we read about it
in history, some of the most famous ones being like
the Salem witch Trials, the one that was famously depicted
in The Crucible, the play by Arthur Miller, and it
(02:38):
typically involves a bunch of over zealous religious nuts looking
for something that just is not there.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
Right. It's strange because I had studied this in the past.
There's a book I want to recommend called The Devil
in the Shape of a Woman. Witchcraft in colonial New England,
and one of the most interesting things about the witch
hunting hysteria and the practice that continued for so long
in Central Europe, well most of Europe, and in the
(03:09):
colonial US or what would become the US, is that
in many cases there were people who genuinely believe that
some occult or supernatural event was occurring. But there were
also people who were prosecuting these cases out of a
more cynical self interested motivation, because you see, if you
(03:29):
could prove that someone was a witch in a lot
of jurisdictions, their belongings and their estate would.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
Later go to you. I did not know that, ben.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So its a way to disenfranchise women.
Speaker 2 (03:41):
Oh not only disenfranchised women, it was a way to
persecute women for their sexuality. And a lot of the
language in the book we're going to talk about today,
the Melias Maleficarum, revolves around women being temptresses in some
way or some how using their sexuality to lure men
(04:03):
to be tools of Satan, in some way making them
more open to Satanic influence. So it's in large part
a way of punishing women for their sexuality because a
lot of these men were either used to just controlling
women in the form of a wife or in the
form of being some sort of higher up in a
community and having expecting to be kowtowed too at all
(04:26):
times members of the opposite sex in any sense that
a woman had some kind of power that they could
not understand it and maybe made them uncomfortable, they wanted
to kind of squash it.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Absolutely, absolutely, and not even kind of. They definitively wanted
this status quo he had established to remain the same.
The crime of witchcraft, as it was defined during this
period of time, consisted of two main sort of branches.
The first was the obvious one, the practice of harmful magic,
(05:01):
using some sort of mysterious other worldly power to bring
misfortune on other people in your community. This could be
the infliction of a disease. Everybody gets sick. Let's blame
that a elderly person who lives alone over by the
edge of the woods. It could be the death of
human beings or livestock. It could also often going back
(05:23):
to your note about sexuality, knowal, it could be the
crime of making men sexually impotent, and so they're like, oh,
I can't get aroused anymore. You know what, It's not me,
It's that elderly person who lives alone on the other
side of town.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
Yeah, but didn't have to be elderly at all. Right,
it could be anyone.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
It could be anyone. And these these hunts were incredibly
extensive at times. In Germany. In fifteen eighty nine, in
a place named Kuedlenburg, one hundred and thirty three women
were executed in one day and there was a witch
hunt fifteen eighty five. Germany is very bad about this.
That left two German villages we get this, only one
(06:06):
female resident each.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
It's insane.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
So that's the that's the context we want to lay
out here. This stuff was tragic, horrific, and looking back
from our time in the modern day, it could seem
like some sort of group insanity. But we have to
remember the people who were prosecuting these cases didn't just
(06:30):
believe that they were acting logically. They wanted to, I guess,
formalize this, and that leads us to the book you mentioned, Noel.
The proper name is what malleus maleficarum, that's right, and
also known as the hammer of the witches.
Speaker 2 (06:49):
Or in German. I love this, de hexin hamma. There
we go, de hexinama hexa.
Speaker 1 (06:56):
So what is this?
Speaker 2 (06:57):
It is, as you said, ben a codify book of
all of these things that we just mentioned. Okay, so
the writers of this book didn't just invent this stuff
out of whole cloth. It was kind of in the
zeitgeist already. Witches do exist in the Bible, right, I
mean this idea of black magic or of you know, Antichrist,
sort of some kind of anti god entity.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Right, sorcery as an infernal power?
Speaker 2 (07:23):
Exactly? Is the word witch in the Bible?
Speaker 1 (07:25):
Ben It's a fascinating question, no, because there are various
kinds of things that we call witchcraft and divination in
the in the Hebrew Bible, and it's generally mentioned in
a disapproving tone. But the problem that we run into
is a problem of translation, because somebody might translate something
(07:48):
that just says like sorcery or soothsaying into witchcraft.
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Yeah. I've got one here from Leviticus nineteen thirty one
that uses the word spiritists. It says, do not turn
to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be
defiled by them. I am the Lord your God. Or
from Chronicles thirty three six, he sacrificed his children in
the valley of ben Hennon practiced divination and witchcraft sought
(08:12):
omens and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil
in the eyes of the Lord, arousing his anger. So
to your point, been translation, but very interesting to google
this and see, Yes, witchcraft is in that form in
the Bible in such ways.
Speaker 1 (08:28):
If not the W word itself, the privuses, yeah, the
tone like Galatians five nineteen mentions it. It's there are
several places where you can find Bible verses about witchcraft.
But to your point, Noel, which I think is a
very important point, the authors of this book, who are
(08:50):
understood to be two Dominicans, a guy named Johann Sprenger
and a guy named Heinrich Kramer, they weren't just saying,
let's give people our pace of witches. They were pulling,
as you said, from a tradition and a system of
beliefs that it existed long before them. The book, or
the document as some people prefer to call it, was
(09:13):
written around fourteen eighty six, and when they were writing it,
they were essentially compiling all these other things into sort
of a one stop shop.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
But not without their own editorializing. Right, That's a big
part of it, because this guy, Heinrich Kramer, was sort
of like a failed witch hunter, and he never really
got the respect that he felt he was due and
was kind of a bitter man, and decided he wanted
to spread the word and kind of get people thinking
(09:45):
about these things that were very dear to him, persecuting
potentially wicked women for whatever reason. You know, he wanted
to influence that and kind of have his say on
how people were going to look at this, and he
put all this in a book along with his partner
Jacob Spranger. M hmm.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
That's correct. And there's an interesting part of Kramer's motivation
that we have to examine here. You know how some
unscrupulous people on a get rich quick scheme will self
publish a book on Amazon and then use that book
as sort of a bona fide or a mark of
(10:23):
their own credibility, totally expertise, Like, you know, the best
way to become a self help expert is just to
write a book that purports to teach people to help themselves.
Kramer also wanted, in addition to warning the general public,
or at least the literate public, against the danger of witchcraft,
he also wanted this book to give him the official
authority to hunt witches. And again, this guy has somewhat
(10:49):
of a myopic focus, but it also has some alarmist
nature to it. It doesn't. Over the what two hundred
and fifty six pages, it attempts to do several things. First,
it wants to prove that witches and witchcraft are real.
Don't be deceived, they are real. They are out to
(11:09):
get you. Second, building from that and says these witches
are real, they are infernal, they work with demonic forces,
so therefore they must be killed. And then third, it
wants to convince readers that not only are witches real,
not only are they dangerous, but they are signed of
the apocalypse, the end of the world.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
And it does a really interesting thing that creates a
real conundrum for when these witch trials start going completely bonkers.
It points out that the Bible says there are witches. Therefore,
if you don't believe in witches, you are an accessory
to their evil crimes. Yeah, similar to that old Edmund
(11:50):
Burke quote the only thing necessary for the triumph of
evil is for good men to do nothing, only even
further right, Because this is literally saying if you think
it means you know, if you're standing up for the
truth and saying that this is not real, this there
is no witchcraft, or this person definitely is not a witch.
Then they can accuse you of being a heretic yourself
(12:12):
simply for not believing what you're supposed to believe.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
If you're not with us, you're against this, totally against us.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
So if we divide the book, we talked about kind
of three aims of the book, we can also divide
the work into three rough sections. The first is, as
we said, this explanation that witches are real, they are dangerous.
The second is a guide for the experts the clergy
on how to recognize a witch, and they get pretty specific,
(12:45):
you know, like devil's marks, which could be anything from
a mole to a scar, right certain types of behavior
or things that occur in their communities. And then the
third part, the final part, is a legal manual for
how to properly accuse and persecute a witch and if
finding them guilty spoiler alert, very few people were found
(13:07):
innocent to give them the death penalty. And in the work,
there's a really interesting bit of double think here because
the authors say that you shouldn't be deceived if someone
appears to be weak, they say, in fact, the weak
people are the most dangerous witches. And what this meant
is that a lot of times people who lived on
(13:28):
the fringes of society because they were say mentally ill,
or they were very poor, they became the number one targets.
And then also we have to face the facts. I'm
pulling some of this from a really excellent podcast called
fifteen Minute History, with an episode on witch hunting in Europe.
(13:50):
The guests on this episode is guy named John E. Green,
professor in history at the University of Texas and Austin,
and he points out that a lot of times persecuting
witches made things even worse for the community because people
who would be considered witches would be like medical practitioners
(14:13):
literally the only healthcare in the village or in the town,
or midwives and you know, let's say a birth goes
wrong through no fault of the midwife, if you know,
depending on their luck, they may be accused of purposely
killing the child. Or if you're treating someone who has
a disease and they don't get better because hey, it's
(14:33):
an incurable disease, then they flip the script and say
they're not better, not because leprosy is incurable at the time,
but because you're a witch.
Speaker 2 (14:44):
What a horrible position to be in to literally being
the first line of defense for helping people and opening
yourself up to this kind of scrutiny and ridicule. It
reminds me of that scene we're talking about the tests
and like the things that were contained in this book,
which is also the kinds of tortures and how now
you should go about torturing a witch to get a
proper confession. But it reminds me of that scene in
(15:05):
Monty Python the Holy Grail where they're trying to see
if it's a witch, and they're like, does wood sink
in water? No, it floats, So then throw her in
the water and see if she floats. What else floats
in water? A duck? And then the king is like,
so if she weighs the same as a duck, then
she's a witch. It's like this kind of circular logic.
You know, this is satire, obviously, but that's the kind
(15:27):
of stuff that was in this book.
Speaker 1 (15:28):
In this book, although maybe it started out as somewhat
of a specialized tool, this book becomes wildly popular, right
it goes through what twenty eight editions. I think there
are more than thirty thousand copies circulated throughout Europe.
Speaker 2 (15:45):
Yeah, I think it's sold more copies than any book
but the Bible up until sixteen seventy.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Eight, which is insane, especially when you consider what a
pain it was to make a book at that time.
So this also get some endorsement from the papacy itself.
The Pope issues a papal bull, it's document that the
Pope signs themselves stating the official church opinion.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
And this is pre publication though, right, It's like he
kind of sanctioned them to do this research. And this
bull was included in the in the printing.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
Yes, yeah, and this book it's a hexellen Hammo is
the only thanks man. This book is the only work
of its kind to receive the official approval of the
Catholic Church. Now, people will tell you that there's some
fairly convincing, circumstantial evidence that Kramer bribed the Pope to
(16:44):
condone the Hammer of the Witches.
Speaker 2 (16:46):
Yeah. I also read somewhere that it's not even specifically
about the Hammer of the Witches, that they sort of
almost like fudged it a little bit to make it
seem like it was more about that, but it was
actually a little broader and not specifically condoning everything that
they were putting forth in this book. But it's like
(17:06):
the best New York Times book review you could possibly get,
or the best celebrity endorsement you can ever imagine having,
is having this thing included inside your book jacket cover.
Pope says, good to go. You know, this is this
is the this is the one.
Speaker 1 (17:21):
Yeah, it's kind of like having writing a book about
how to be a better person and having h an
endorsement from mister Rogers or something. Not quite because we're
talking about God, you know, in divinity. But while we're
talking about fudging this, there's an interesting thing. We we
mentioned Jacob Springer or Johann Springer as he's often called.
(17:44):
He was in later editions mentioned as a collaborator, but
nowadays a lot of historians believe that his name was
just added as kind of an endorsement. Yeah, that's right,
that's right. I read that too, and that he didn't
actually have much to do with the creation of the book,
sort of like how Quentin Tarantino air quote presented the
(18:08):
man with the Iron Fist directed by Rizza, and Tarantino
didn't really have anything to do with how he hung out.
I'm sure, yeah, I'm sure he They.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
Probably had n't share with his name on it on set.
Speaker 1 (18:18):
And he probably made a rant about something in pop culture.
Speaker 2 (18:21):
But that's just what he does.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Yeah, that's just kind of how Quinton is totally.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
So what was the bone? What were the bona fides
of Springer? Again, Ben, I'm sorry if you said it
just helped me out. I want to understand a little better.
Speaker 1 (18:31):
Yeah, he was dean of the University of Cologne in Germany,
and he was also a friar of some note.
Speaker 2 (18:41):
And here's the thing the bull itself, it was more
intended to confirm powers that inquisitors, or that a guy
named Henry instatoris and James Springer, who were inquisitors, already
have to quote deal with persons of every class and
every form of crime, for example, with witchcraft as being heresy.
(19:04):
And it called upon the Bishop of Strasburg to lend
this is a quote from the from the Bull, lend
inquisitors all possible support. And the reason that Kramer enlisted
Springer was because Spranger's name is actually in the bul
but it had nothing to do with the book. It
was more about seeking out witchcraft and prosecuting it in general,
(19:29):
because the law had changed where I believe it used
to be more a church specifically a church duty to
seek these things out, but then it kind of became
more of a municipal thing. And when we start seeing
the crazy panic of witch hunt pandemonium, that's because it
became a lot easier to do.
Speaker 1 (19:51):
Yeah, that's that's the thing, and I think that's that's
well put. We would be remiss if we didn't mention
that one of the things clear condoned by the book
is torture.
Speaker 2 (20:02):
Oh yeah, horrific torture. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:05):
Kramer's favorite was something called the strepato, which is a
device that attaches to the wrist and pulls them upwards
so the victims hang by their arms until their arms dislocate.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Yeah, anytime we talk about this kind of stuff, I
just get the hebe gv's so bad, Like the thumb screws,
the ones that would literally shred your hands, you know,
by like these vices that your hands would go in.
And there was one that was some kind of like
helmet you would put on with like a drill that
would go right into your forehead. Just barbaric stuff. And
(20:37):
another thing that was in the in the book was
a caveat saying you don't have to tell the person
you're accusing who accused them.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
Right. It also recommends, oddly enough, deception in order to
obtain confessions. So there's a quote here where it says,
and when the implements of torture been prepared to judge,
both in person and through other good men zealous in
the faith, tries to persuade the prisoner to confess the
truth freely. But if he will not confess, he bid attendance,
(21:09):
make the prisoner fast to the strepado or other implement
of torture. The attendants obey forthwith yet with feigned agitation.
Then at the prayer of some of those present, the
prisoner is loosed again and taken aside, and once more
persuaded to confess, being led to believe that he will,
in that case not be put to death. That's why
(21:29):
so many people confessed, because they got tortured for some
amount of time, and then they got pulled aside and
someone said, hey, look, if you just come clean about this,
stop it can end. Now, of course you don't have
to die.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
And we already know this about military interrogation, that interrogation
under torture does not yield results that are reliable because
people will say anything if you'll stop doing the horrible
thing to them.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Right exactly, And that's I mean, it's the I hate
to say it. Tortures of tale is old as time.
And didn't they also talk about the quote unquote more
carnal inherent nature of women.
Speaker 2 (22:09):
Absolutely, that's what we're talking about the top of the show. Yeah,
I feel like that's something it's inherent in this whole
persecution of women for witchcraft. But yes, it carries over
into this codified you know, book of all of these
different techniques. I was watching a documentary on this book
on History Channel, and I forget the guy's name, but
he was a scholar who specifically studies this work, and
(22:31):
he pointed out all of these very charged words that
were used in the text, the words that didn't have
to use and they were Latin obviously, but words that
would mean something like disgusting or filth, you know, as
opposed to just you know, not good, like very charged
language or a word that meant a temptress or some
(22:53):
kind of adulteress, you know, where it was like, this
is what these women will turn men into through their
you know, witchly wiles or whatever. So very charged language,
very much within it with a position, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
And additionally, it's important to note there's a different definition
of seduction at play here. It's completely possible, for instance,
for someone to have sexually assaulted an innocent person in
a village and then say, I'm a good Christian man.
She seduced me through the use of witchcraft, of course,
(23:30):
so in addition to me attacking her as a punishment
her powers, she should be put to death.
Speaker 2 (23:36):
It reminds me of the story we did about women
being incarcerated for having sexually transmitted diseases, where that was
flipped as well and used by men to treat like
men would give women these sexually transmitted diseases and then
act like they had given it to them, or use
it to ostracize them in some way. There was one
story I believe where a man like left a woman
(23:56):
on the side of the road or something like that.
It's another one of these really fed up power dynamics
that is again tail as old as time, and we
see it all codified in this book here, like this
is the way to do it.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
There's a pretty interesting argument from Atlas Obscure by Sarah
Lascau about about the hammer of the Witches, which, you know,
while we're at it, shouldn't it be the hammer for
the witches? Just grammatically the witches do not have the power, right.
So what they found was that The Malice Maleficarum was
(24:34):
once thought to be the handbook for witch hunters, but
more recent research has found that maybe it wasn't as
influential as we initially thought, because you're right, you know
all that Papal Bull from fourteen eighty four and the
book was written in fourteen eighty six, published in fourteen
eighty seven, that Papal Bull allows witchcraft prosecutions, but as
(24:59):
you said, doesn't specifically say this is.
Speaker 2 (25:01):
The book, but it named that guy Springer, which is
the reason that Kramer needed to have him as his
co author, because that allowed him to use that as
a manipulation. And I think we've made it clear. But
this thing caught on like wildfire and spread even to
like the New World, you know, which is where the
Salem stuff comes in. I mean, this became a thing,
and it was literally this like best seller, but not
(25:22):
just one that people were talking about around the water cooler.
This actually caused the deaths of what was that figure
at the top of the show bends the women.
Speaker 1 (25:32):
The early modern period, approximately one hundred thousand and fifty
thousand of whom that's excuse me, I've ever stated the
number of no, you got it, you got it.
Speaker 2 (25:40):
I think I said hundreds of them, but hundreds of
thousands of women who were persecuted, and a lesser number
who were actually killed, but in the most gruesome and
horrific ways.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
And to the point about the perceived importance of the book,
as it was catching on with the public, it looks
like some members of the clergy were becoming increasingly, I
don't know, skeptical of the book would be, oddly enough,
a good word. Leaders of the Spanish Inquisition didn't put
too much stock in the Hammer, and by at least
(26:12):
the fifteen thirties they were actively warning their own officials
away from it because maybe they saw it as sort
of a personal mission of Kramer's, maybe a little more
self interest than public interest. But it was still influential
enough that people would commission specific copies of it, and
(26:32):
I guess it is important for us to mention that
while the vast majority of people prosecuted for witchcraft were women,
there were dudes in there too, and they were also
put to death. Absolutely, it was kind of anything goes.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
I've got a couple of resources that I'd like to
plug really quick, sure, and I'm interested in finding out
more about this stuff. I know you and I both
love the a twenty four film The Witch. I feel
like that displays these attitudes very strongly. There's a young
girl character who kind of represents that sexuality that we're
talking about, and there's some kind of telling shots that
(27:06):
show that that's not only an issue for the man,
it's an issue for the mother, because the mother is
almost even as much threatened by that as any you know,
authority figure male might be. And that becomes a theme,
and this idea of a witch harming crops or livestock
(27:26):
is represented, and just the kind of idea of this
witch being is it real? Is it not real? Is
it just religious zelotry? Run a muck. That's the thing
that's fun about that movie.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
But there's also the subtle argument for air got poisoning.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
That's right. It's right that they're all hallucinating on some
kind of poisoned crop, poisoned corn that has hootinogenic effects,
which is one of the possible explanations for the Salem
witch trials, which here in How Stuff Works. Our buddy
Matt works on a show about Salem called Unobscure with
Aaron Mankey of lore fame, and our pal Alex Williams,
(28:05):
who composed our theme.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
And now, thankfully this book is surprise, surprise, no longer
considered an authoritative an authoritative guide to persecuting people for
perceived supernatural abilities.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, you don't hear so much about people burning witches anymore, thankfully,
But you know there are still which hunts of other varieties,
and all this stuff is very interesting to learn from
and apply to modern day politics and things, which is
something that they parallel in that show. And I'm scured
that we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (28:41):
And for his part, Kramer kept writing and preaching until
he died in Bohemia in fifteen o five. His gambit
to increase his reputation, or maybe to justify his failed
attempts at which hunting did seem to succeed because we
(29:01):
said the Papal bull on persecution witchcraft was published in
the fourteen eighty seven edition. We didn't mention that by
fourteen ninety the Church had officially condemned the Hammer of
the Witches. Was it because they were genuinely concerned for
the damage it was doing to communities? Or was it
(29:24):
because he was late with yet another bribe that we
don't know?
Speaker 2 (29:29):
Well, what we do know is that there was rampant
corruption in the Catholic Church and the papacy, and you know,
likely still is given what we know about some of
the scandals that keep coming to light. So it's uh,
you know, the more things change and all that. And
this brings us to where's the silver lining here? Yeah,
we need a silver lining. I have a comic recommendation.
Oh good, let's see. That's why the comic recommendation is helpful.
Speaker 1 (29:51):
It's our insurance plan. Yeah yeah, okay. So I'm a
fan of murky and dark stuff, and I would like
to recommend today the commic Sir Edward Gray, Witchfinder. So Noel,
you you know hell Boy and maybe Baltimore and all
those other things.
Speaker 2 (30:08):
I know hell Boy.
Speaker 1 (30:09):
Okay, So Witchfinder is a spin off from hell Boy,
and it concerns a guy named Sir Edward Gray, who
is the Queen's official expert on all things supernatural because
of various interactions he has had saving people from the
(30:32):
nefarious activities of witches. Edward Gray does not spoiler alert
use the Hammer of the Witches the hex Mohammah. But
it's a great story as a matter of fact. Man,
if you want to borrow some of the trades, I
have them.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Sure, as soon as I return Locking Key to you.
Oh that's right, can't be double dutch to you. Comic
book wise, Oh, Lock and Key is so great. But
that's my comic recommendation for today. As far as we know,
there is not Thank Goodness a graphic novel adaptation of
the Nalius Maleficara. I think the Constantine comics are really fun.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
That's great, and it involves a.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Lot of different supernatural exploration and things like that. I've
always been a huge fan of Sandman and Neil Gamon's work,
and Constantine was in that briefly, and he has his
own series that's really great and has Witchcraft and Devilry
and uh Lucifer and all of these great deities, but
they have real personality, so that that's a fun one.
(31:31):
I wouldn't bother with the movie with Keanu Reeves.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
I would. I would watch the movie after reading the comics,
so just recognize it's a very different thing.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
And I have heard that the TV series that got
canceled was okay, but I was I didn't see it.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
I liked it. To whomever they picked to be the
lead actor for that the protagonist.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
He's got to be real Cockney. He can't be Keanu.
Speaker 1 (31:48):
Reeves genuinely looks like Johnny Constitute.
Speaker 2 (31:52):
Yeah, cont of Reeves is a weird choice. Here's a
weird choice. I hear he's a great guy though he
seems like a lovely dude. That's sad. Keanu on the
bench meme is is just delightful. There we go.
Speaker 1 (32:01):
Now we're inting on a better note.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
We just had to make ourselves cheer up. I think
that's what it was. We hope that it worked for
you as well. Ridiculous Historians, thank you so much for
tuning in. Thanks to our super producer and avowed opponent
of witch hunts, Casey Pegrew. Thanks to our research pal
Gabe Lucier for hipping us to some of the details
in this kind of depressing but incredible story.
Speaker 1 (32:26):
We already thanked Alex, we did, but we get to
think you do it again.
Speaker 2 (32:29):
It was weird thinking him out of context.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
No, I think it was great. Still, I feel like
we should let him know that we still do this
because you said he just nodded once.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
That's just what he does.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
He's just he's a nodter.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
He's a nodter.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
I mean that as a compliment.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
But both he and our long suffering buddy Matt both
work on this Salem show Unobscured with Aaron Mangy, So
check that out if you want to do a deep
dive into the Salem witch trials and how it kind
of dovetails a bit with American politics right now. It's
a very interesting show. Thanks to you, Ben for being
a friend.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Thanks to you Noel, and thanks to everyone in society
ever who decided to stop burning people alive. Yeah yeah,
I think that deserves it. Thank you, and stay tuned
for our next episode. We can't tell you what it
is yet for various reasons.
Speaker 2 (33:21):
Is it because we don't know.
Speaker 1 (33:22):
Primarily it's because we haven't picked one yet, but we
can promise that. We hope it will be interested.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
It'll be an episode. See it n folks. For more
podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or
wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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