June 6, 2023 • 43 mins
While San Marino may not make many international headlines, this micronation has one of the most fascinating origin stories in all of Europe. In today's episode, Ben, Noel and Max explore how a formerly rural area just about 6 miles from Rimini became a home for a stonemason hoping to get away from it all.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own console
or representative super producer Max, two Computers, Williams and Ben,
you're Noel, Noel. That's a that's a new nickname for
us for Max Isn't.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It what two computers or man of the people. Oh,
it could be a compound nickname either way. They're they're
they're new. But we've always known Max is had an
affinity for operating two computers simultaneously, and also so that
he is a magnanimous dictator in his own ring.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And today we are talking about another particular, incredibly unique community,
Ridiculous Historians. You know, if you think about it, you
and us, we're all together kind of a little nation
of our own out there in the in the world
of podcasts. Yes, we are returning to micro nations, and
(01:27):
we've been going for some of the deep cuts recently.
Monaco most people know, but a lot of people didn't
know about Andorra. And I think San Marino is a
name many of us have heard before, but we might
not know much about it. Right, is that reasonable?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Not to be confused with Dan Marino, famous for his
role in ace Ventura Pet Detective, And I think he
also played a sport allegedly, and he never won a
super Bowl allegedly. That's just the kind of nice twist
that you're known for. Max, Now that's brutal me And
both these computers.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, you've got one computer for the positive comments and
one for the negative. That's why you're a beast on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
We found something really interesting as we were preparing for
the research here. San Marino is a real country. It
is recognized by the United Nations. It is, as Noel said,
a micro nation. I mean it's very very small. Its
population is much smaller than many US states. It was
also founded entirely sort of due to a case of
(02:32):
mistaken identity. So that's like our teaser at the top.
But before we do any of that, where is San Marino? No, Like,
if we're Carmen san diegoing this, could we point to
it on a map?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, it's sort of where the top of the boot
meets the thigh of Italy. Yeah, perfect right, right, upper leg,
upper boot region of Italy. Yeah, it is in Italy.
But it's also like non in Italy. That's part why
this story is interesting because for whatever reason, the old
Holy Roman Empire seemed to give this little area a
(03:09):
pass and then allow it to kind of go on
existing as its own you know, territory, as its own nation,
which is really unusual because as we know, the Romans
were pretty famous for conquering and for just taking stuff,
sacking you know, cities and whatnot. And somehow this area
it kind of flew under the radar for quite some time,
(03:30):
and it's pretty interesting. So it was actually found in
between three oh one and three fifty CE by a Christian,
which as to the tension there, right, a Stonemason by
the name of Marinus, the Dalmatian human. Yeah yeah, not
not the cute cartoon dog with the celebrity voice.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
He the Dalmatian in this sense.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
For first people that are part of what is today
referred to as Croatia and Montenegro. There are to day
Dalmatian Italians. They do not have spots, however, So Marinis
comes from an island named rab And It's uh, yeah,
it's right, Rab or is it rob?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah? No, do my up joke. It's pronounced the way
people in California, say Rob, I don't.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Think we have the rab Yeah, I got it, making
sure we're on the same base. So that's yeah. And
now he comes from the hails from the island of
rab And. This island was in his original day referred
to as Arbi, like the like the hat restaurant, or Arba.
(04:39):
He had a relatively serene, idyllic not particularly happen in
life there, you know what with being a Christian at all,
though he did still technically have the potential for harassment.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah. So picture this guy as kind of working class.
He doesn't have a silver spoon, and his religious beliefs
make him a target for the Roman Empire. This is
where we get to something called the Diocletian Persecution. As
we know the Roman Empire, in addition to their love
(05:14):
of imperialism, they had a love of stamping out other
people's beliefs. And this persecution was actually the last and
the most severe persecution people who didn't vibe with the
Roman pantheon. So he high tailed it because this thing,
(05:36):
it didn't target specifically Christians common misconception, it targeted anyone
who was miscellaneous or was considered other in the Grand
scheme of Roman ideology. So, starting in three to Zho
three Common Era series, multiple emperors issued these laws that
(05:56):
took away various legal rights of Christians. And the big
thing was they said, everybody who lives here has to
make sacrifices to our gods, the pantheon of Roman gods.
And so if you, as a resident of the Roman Empire,
don't play along, you know, you don't kill the goats
or whatever when you're supposed to, then you can be
(06:17):
imprisoned or even executed. Meretis does a vibe.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
With this, Yeah, and just you know, it's it's obviously
called the the a persecution and not like a genocide.
So it wasn't mass murdering of these people. It was
just making life very very inconvenient for them. And in
some extreme cases, you know, there could be executions. Usually
that would require people to push back pretty significantly, you know,
(06:42):
or have repeat offenses. But I don't know why I
sound like I'm being an apologist for the Roman empires. Well,
you know, at least they weren't murdering everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, situations, it's it's tough to hurt the cats.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I just loved the idea of because if you look
at the way the story is described that there are
other persecutions. Oh yeah, oh like this is a thing
that happened throughout history, and I'd never really thought about
that before. So yeah, he takes off to escape the
Diocletian persecution and he goes to a place called Remini,
(07:14):
kind of like the actress the scientology actor Leah Remini Remini,
I think it's felt exactly the same way actually, and
starts a new life. Things are going relatively well, so
as we know he's a man of faith. He becomes
a deacon in his church and starts to develop a
bit of a reputation, becomes quite popular for his religious
(07:36):
pontificating or preaching if you prefer. And so but this
doesn't exactly the kind of but you know, if you're
out in the streets, you know, giving sermons, it's not
the best way to fly under the radar, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah. Okay, so we all know performance doesn't always go
as plans, especially if you're in a live venue, and
he is. He is a local celebrity, as you said,
street preacher, and in our boy Marenus's case, things go
very very off the rails. There is a character, an
eccentric person who keeps coming around. Imagine this as the
(08:11):
worst heckler slash stalker ever she is. Apparently, before he
even got into town, she was known for being let's
say it, she was known for being insane. That's how
people considered her. And so she would show up to
his sermons. I don't want to call him performances. She
would show up to his sermons and interrupt to claim
(08:33):
loudly and repeatedly that Marenus is in fact lying about
who he is. She's saying, you are my estranged husband,
I know you Donald or whatever, and she would not
hear otherwise, and none of this is true.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Just to be clear, like this is is the ravings
of an unwell person. She has chosen to target this
individual trying to go for clean living, preaching the word
in the streets, escaping you know, persecution from the Roman Empire,
and she is just jamming up his spot.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, the whole thing. She's messing up the show, and
so it's stuff. It reminds me. This is so weird, man.
It reminds me of I think you and I talked
about this off air, because we do hang out as friends.
One time I was a dragon can for work. We're
filming some stuff and it was at the end of
the night where everybody's partying. I walked outside just to
(09:29):
get some air, and this guy came up to me.
He's like, oh, hey, Neil, what's up? And I said,
I'm sorry, man, I'm not Neil, and then beat me
here Max. He looked me up and down and he
said fuck you, Neil, and then walked off. And I
was like, what can you do? This is like kind
of what Marinus is going through centuries earlier. And so
(09:49):
he gets a lot of unwelcome attention. The town is
starting to say, I don't know, maybe he's just running
across and so god, yeah, he can't prove he is
not this deadbeat husband.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
The story goes. So he leaves town again and again.
And it's not like he was in witness protection and
was changing his name, because you know, it wasn't the
only Roman empire certainly had spies and stuff, but this
guy wasn't exactly at the top of their list of
folks to track down at this point, right, So he
could have gone on just fine, you know, if it
(10:23):
hadn't been for this very unpleasant sounding woman. So he
does have to move again, and he he kind of
becomes something of a hermit.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
He literally finds himself a cave to live in. He
becomes a cave dwelling kind of monk. He creates a chapel.
He builds a chapel. I assume outside of the stuff
of the cave, the cave is just for sleeping in
nighttime behavior, which is a thing, it's a whole, you know,
genre of behavior. And he establishes a monastery in the
(11:01):
mega rural area that is like a bit difficult to reach.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, it's one of those why would you go there
places at the time. It's very remote places you described,
called Mont Titano or Mount Titan. It's the highest of
San Marino's have seven hills. And because it is so
(11:29):
in the middle of nowhere, the local secular powers don't
really clock it. They don't care, they don't know what's
going on. Other people are feeling his vibe. You know,
let's get out of the day to day rat race
of our time and let's let's focus on living Christian lives.
So people start traveling there and living in the in
(11:54):
the area of the monastery. In the chapel, Marinus is
not a saint yet because he's still alive and he's
sort of a benevolent leader. But these folks are for
all intents and purposes, they are commune, and eventually, because
they were commune where nothing goes wrong. His reputation for
being a solid dude reaches the ears of the people
(12:14):
who legally technically officially own the land.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, and they're like, yeah, you know, I mean, we
weren't really doing anything with it anyway. This guy seems
to be putting forth good works. People seem to dig
his vibe. I like the cut of his jib. I
like this whole little planned community that he's got going
on there. So why don't we just just is goog
and can bequeath this land to this community? You know,
(12:42):
one person's monastery is another person's cult. This is what
I'm just putting it out there. True, what has I
don't know, it just has it. It's no digs on
people of faith, but it's just you know, this is
like people that are kind of living rough in the mountains,
you know, kind of it feels like a planned community
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
You know, It's it's a matter of perspective, you know,
And I think you're absolutely on the money there. It's
not offensive to say. So this, this landowner, Felissima, is
from Ramini, so she probably remembers some of the street preaching,
and she decides to do a mitzvah, although she almost certainly.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Did not call it that, right, and a real bad look.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Right. So, these people, this community, they're essentially mountaineers. She
gives them the land and she says, you own this
and you should always stay united in your mission, and
they take that to heart. Fast forward, Marinus dies, fast
forward again, he is canonized by the Catholic Church, and
(13:43):
so in his honor they name this land the land
of San Marino or Saint Marinas.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, and it, you know, what was at first a
very small kind of community begins to blossom and by
the mid fifth century you have the beginnings of a
little town. M h.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah. And this is how we know that the broad
strokes of the story are true. Now, granted, we told
you the most ridiculous one about the mistaken identity driving
the guy out, but we know the high points because
there's a monk named Eugipio who says, hey, there are
solid reports that there's a holy dude a hermit or
(14:28):
a monk living on this mountain, like you said, as
early as five eleven CE. And because it's poor, there
aren'tny great resources, it's tough to get to. It succeeds
and it stays independent despite many centuries of chaos. And
then we see later reports from the ninth century that say, well,
(14:50):
now that community has thrived for centuries, and it's currently
ruled by a bishop of some sort. And you can
go back and forth and see more and more mentions
in the historical record about San Marino as it becomes
not just independent, but increasingly well organized. I think by
(15:14):
what is it, seven fifty five. It gets mentioned in
one book and they talk about how they they now
have a ruling structure of consuls, so they never had
a king. Really, this is why they have a claim
to be one of the oldest republics.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Right. And a bishop is just sort of a high
ranking member of the Christian clergy. They're also obviously Catholic bishops,
but this would have been a bishop in the Christian Church.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, this would have been at this point. Yeah. Also,
it's a little more loosey goosey, right, because of global
communication and how it didn't exist. Yeah, none of that.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah. Also part of the reason that this whole community
was able to fly into the radar for so long.
I mean, wasn't like word of this was spreading by
anything other than you know, right, people telling stories.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Right, right, exactly. And so because the commune was religiously motivated,
because they weren't making trouble and they did not possess riches,
they scooted under the radar for quite some time. They
were also known for a series of mountain fortresses because
they did want to defend themselves if something, if something
(16:31):
untoward happened. They also got protection from local nobles.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I think that's right. And you mentioned San Marino setting
up his kind of cave dwelling situation on one of
several peaks. I guess, so, I mean this this did
have sort of a strategic fortress like quality to it,
this whole area, which is going to come into play eventually,
(16:58):
one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah. And the protection that they get from their geography
and from the hills and the fortresses they build, it
is further exacerbated by the protection they receive from these
these various powerful families in Italy. Maybe we talk a
(17:19):
little bit about their government. They never had a king,
they did have a self governed assembly. This was called
the erech Eringo. I want to say, eringo ar e
n g O.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I think that sounds as this is as good a
guess as any. So this is essentially just sort of
like a council, right, This is like, yeah, so it's
a body of governance, but it's not ruled by a
single individual.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
No, it's the heads of each family, because again it's
still a really popular, really small population. And in twelve
forty three they established the these positions, these roles captain's regents,
they're the joint heads of state, and their earliest laws
in this form date back to twelve sixty three. And
(18:12):
then fast forward a few decades and the Pope agrees
the Holy See confirms the independence of San Marino in
twelve ninety one.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Got to get something on the table. You have always
been confused as to why it's called the Holy See. See.
Maybe everyone out there that's known this for years is
laughing at me right now, but what is a c.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It's the the etymology. We should learn that now. I
know that the Holy See is the phrase for the
universal government of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Okay, I think it sounds to me like the etymology
is descended from the word seat, so it's like that's
their seat of government, you know, That's exactly I mean,
this is what I'm seeing with with a cursory google.
But I just always found it funny because when you
hear it, of course, in my mind I picture some
sort of mystical ocean.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Right yeah, yeah, yeah, which would be way cooler, honestly, agreed.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So soey, So you're telling me that at this point
the Roman Empire is aware of this place, after all
this time flying under the radar, and they do nothing.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
They don't do anything. Really. The big power that these
folks have to worry about is Catholicism, is the Vatican.
And so because San Marino is not populated by a
bunch of real bloodthirsty expansionist people, because they're not sitting
on vast reserves of minerals or whatever, and they're also
(19:44):
not at a strategically important location, it's kind of more
trouble to get them in line than it is to
ignore them.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
They just let them go on doing their thing and
they confirm their independence in twelve ninety one. It's super cool.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
I guess yeah, right, And they said, look, we want
to create the three Towers of San Marino to prevent
other nations from attacking us, because not everybody is peaceful.
They're still being realistic, and this was smart because various
people did try to attack them, various war lords, essentially Montefeltro,
(20:26):
the Maltesta of Rimini, the lords of Urbino, et cetera.
They try to conquer this thing, which is basically a village.
The land area here for a long time is just
that one mountain, probably still with that weird cave, the
highest peak where Marino initially took up residence. And in
(20:49):
fourteen sixty three the republic does lose its neutrality. They
throw in their hat in an alliance against the lord
of Remini at the time, and this name is epic.
Siggis Mondo Pandolfo Mala testa. How do you do very well?
What does he to his friends? Is he Pando? To
(21:10):
his friends?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Sigis maybe yeah, yeah, I like I like, yes, sigis
Pando and that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And he was later on though, defeated.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And then after that, because of this defeat, Pope Pius
the Second bestows upon San Marino, some castles, uh, and
some surrounding towns Fiorentino, Sara Valla, and Monte Giardino, which
sounds delicious, does sound good? Wait a minute, I'm a
(21:43):
little confused. So so they threw it. So San Marino
throws into an alliance against our boys, Sigis Pando, and
as a reward for defeating this guy who was bad news,
it would seem the Pope bestowed upon San Marino some boons.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, just so spoils a war. And then later a
town named Fatano joins San Marino of their own accord.
They just decide they like the vibe and they want
to be a part of it. And since that time,
since like the fourteen sixties, the territory of San Marino
has remained unchanged. It's now by this time, by what
(22:24):
are we, middle of fifteenth century. It's ruled by a
grand council. They're all dudes, because sam Marino is not
that progressive yet, and they are from this earlier assembly
of families, and they cooperate. They play the game of geopolitics,
and they make sure that they can ward off any
(22:45):
serious attacks, any attempts to take over their land.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And then a famous family of conquerors. You may have
heard of the Borgias, which I think Max we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
There are they like.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
So Assassin's Creed two Daddy Born shows a bad guy
in an Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, which is the direct sequel,
his son is the bad guy. So the Borges are
all over Assassin's Creed, and the Borgia are ridiculous in
real life. Oh yeah, it's just insane. They're just a
little bit worse when you give them apples of Eden
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yes, yeah, oh good call nice callback staff Eden.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Uh huh, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Not everybody liked that aspect of the Assassin's Creed mythos,
but it was one of my favorite parts.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, and I don't like every person out here in
this world.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Either, all right, Geez, maxis on is his violent computer today?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
No tyrant, his tyrant absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
At this point, San Marino has been occupied by outside
militaries several times, but each time they've kind of been vanquished,
or it's just kind of they've moved on to greener bastors.
Let's just say. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah. So you know, no matter how peaceful you try
to be, there will be power hungry people around right,
and they want their problems to be yours. So luckily,
each time sam Marino has been able to successfully repel
the invasion or get on the other side of it
so that they are not permanently annexed or taken over.
(24:18):
The three times you mentioned when a foreign military came in,
two were in the feudal era. Like we said, Caesar
Borgia occupies the Republic in fifteen oh three, but only
for a few months because then the old guy.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Kicks the bucket when Seo takes him out.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
When Seo takes him out, and then you fast forward
October seventeenth, seventeen thirty nine. There is a papal governor
of Ravenna who decides to kind of go out of
pocket against the pope and uses a military force to
occupy sam Marino. He puts in a new constitution. Oh,
(24:53):
we should say his name, Cardinal Julio Alberoni, and he says,
we're going to force these people to submit to the
governance of the Pontifical states. They protest, They actually do
like you know, like you would see a protest in
the modern day. They're out there in their fists, yeah,
(25:14):
at the sky. Maybe they got signs with clever puns.
They're being civilly disobedient, and then people are sending notes
to the pope saying, come on, man, what's up with
your boy? He's harsh in the whole vibe. I love
his position title. It's a word for a papal governor,
a legate, which I also believe was a like Roman
(25:35):
official in the Roman military, because I seem to recall
if you've ever played Fallout in New Vegas, you know
how there's the whole like kind of Roman contingents that
are all like dressed in sandals and you know, kind
of Roman military garb. I believe one of the high.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Ranking baddies in that group is referred to as a legate.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I know in the Kardashtian Empire, the high rank you
can hear is leg it because it goes leg it,
then it is goal like gold cod, and then it
goes to Glynn. Glynn is the lowest rank at least
that they say that.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Loud leggot is a yeah, And all of these examples work.
A legate is an official rep that is sent to
a foreign country. So in the world of the Holy
see here we go, a legate is functioning as a
governor of a foreign land more or less.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, the character can fall out New Vegas was Leggot Lanias.
By the way, good Naw, voiced by Mitch Lewis of
video game voice acting fame.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So okay, where are we now now? Grim also has
legates in the region. Yeah, well there you go.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Well it's the same. Those are Those are both? So
what's that company that Makethesta? This are both Mathestic games.
They love the good Leggo and Bethesta. I st we're
gonna have fast forward in history a little bit to
the late seventeen hundreds, around seventeen ninety seven, where San
(27:07):
Marino becomes a bit of a chess piece in the
Napoleonic Wars. It's a conference between France and the Papal States.
But the interesting thing is that San Marino doesn't really
kind of belong to either of them. Like they're officially
recognized by Napoleon through the Treaty of Talentino, but they
(27:30):
kind of even though on paper, you know, they belong
to Napoleon on they still kind of remain their own thing,
right I'm reading that right?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, in practice they're still sovereign, and you nailed it,
saying that they get used as a chess piece or
people are trying to use them. Napoleon invades Italy and
he's looking for all the friends he can get, right,
so he goes to San Marino and says, look, I
very much respect your republic. You know I will well, actually,
(28:01):
if you throw down with me, then I will expand
your territory. And this is where we get to a regent.
We want to shout out Antonio Onofri. His family's a big,
big deal in San Marino and has been for many years.
Napoleon is camping nearby. He hits up the sam Ma
Reno gang and he says, publicly support me. I'll make
(28:22):
sure we get you more land, and Onofrie says, very politely,
he says, look, our big thing is not coveting our
neighbor's territory. We appreciate it. If you want to send
us some wheat or some supplies, that's dope, but we're
not about stepping on other people's toes that way. And
(28:43):
then later he says his thinking was war's end, but
neighbors remain. And I thought that was so cool because
this move, this one move likely saved their independence. If
they had thrown in with Napoleon, then when Napoleon, when
all his stuff went sideways, they would have had serious consequences.
(29:04):
They may well have been annex So, I mean, we
know things didn't end well for Napoleon. He got exiled
and then later he later things were so rough that
he had to start acting in Bill and Ted bovies
just to make ends meet. Oh man, oh man, I
love you so much.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Was he in both of them? He was just in
the one.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I think it was just in the one. I think
he's a producer later.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, I think that's probably accurate. What's the deal? Did
he really have his hand in his uh lapel all
the time or was that just like a myth?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
There are a couple of paintings. He also wasn't that short?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Now, he was actually taller than Stalin was. Stalin was
like five five five six, And.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, nobody accuse of Stalin of being a small person.
What's the deal?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Stalin purposely kept very short people around him, and they
would have like photos of him doctored and stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Oh yeah, for sure. He was always erasing people from
photos and stuff too.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, Like Stalin, I think was like five five five six.
Napoleon is like widely believed to be five eight. Do
you know who is also really short? We just talked
about James Madison five to.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Four, famously one of the I think the shortest.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
President of the shortest president of a couple of the
guys like Van Buren and Harris Benjamin Harrison, who were
like five to six. We were, you know, kind of
on the shortest stipe, but five to four.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, it just goes to show that if you if
you're not the supreme victor, you know, I mean, obviously
Napoleon did quite well for himself, but then I think
he was exiled in the end. They're gonna name a
complex after you that has nothing to do with your
actual stature.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Right right, And you know, we don't know how many
people joked about Stalin's height because to your earlier point,
he erased them from.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
History exactly, not just from photographs, from actual like reality.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Tough time to be doing stand up in Russia.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
We're gonna get to some communist stuff in a minute too. Yeah,
that's actually where the story takes a very interesting turn.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, so let's head to World War One. Sam Marino
is neutral. They don't take part in the conflict. Really,
they send twenty guys to help Italy on the Italian Front,
and after the war, twenty guys. Yeah, they said, twenty
people the best, their best guys. It's like they got
in a room and they said, what, who's who's got
(31:15):
some openings this weekend? And twenty guys raised their hands,
you know, well show. Yeah, so this is the change
that we were foreshadowing here. After World War One, San
Marino has a big political shift. They get super into fascism.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, the Sammarines. Interesting word there. Fascist party took over
the government in the nineteen twenties, and in the nineteen thirties,
things actually were going quite well. The local economy was thriving.
They were building infrastructure, you know, and reinvesting in the community.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
There was a railway.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
They were trying to increase local tourism and seeming to succeed.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Remember let's let's still keep in mind that this place
was pretty remote and hard to get to, much like Monica.
Remember how it wasn't until they built the railways that
Monico started being more of a going concern with the
funneling and tourists to their casino. Similar Yeah, oh, in
comparison more fascists, though, very very very much fascist.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
And they so they build this railway and this helps
with the local tourism industry. But you need we also
need to understand. I put it this way in a
series about Smedley Butler called Let's Start a Coup. Fascism
at this time still had a new car smell. People
were thinking, well, you know, let's try something else. Maybe
(32:40):
a strong leader will get stuff done. Cut past the
red tape. History would prove that's incredibly incorrect and dangerous.
They did something interesting, right, This is where they realized
tourism can be a viable business. But they, like a
lot of other people, don't know. World War Two is
on the way. They stay neutral again in World War
(33:01):
Two until nineteen forty four. The British Royal Air Force
screws up and they accidentally bombed the country. Oopsie, I
mean it's a small place in the middle, you know,
it's in Italy. It's like around a mountain in.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
It It's it's an honest no one is perfect.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
They drop two bombs, you nail the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Right, Sure, that is the inconvenient part of it, right.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And then the German military says, we're going to occupy this.
We're going to use it as a rest and relaxation
place for our troops, and we're going to set up
hospitals there because it's neutral territory, which an army mind
means we can take over it.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I love the idea of like a combination R and
R and hospital situation. You know, it's like when there
aren't like patients in the beds, you just kind of
use them for lounging, you know, and just watching TV.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
And it's all inside the cave.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
It's all it's still all in the cave, wondering how
could it not. I love it. I love the poetry
and this imagery of that. So Benito Mussolini, famously one
of the only bad bends, does something surprising. He steps
up for sam Marino, and he goes to his pals
in the German government and he says, look, I know
(34:15):
these guys, they're good guys. Just let them stay neutral. Okay,
do it for me, do it for Benny.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
They're blessed, aren't they. I mean, seriously, you got the pope,
a notorious pill who takes you know, I mean especially historically,
I mean, you know, the modern popes seem to have
softened a little bit. But in those days, the head
of the Holy Roman Empire, you know, for him to
give you a pass as a Christian unheard of. Now
you've got this Mussolini fellow going to the Germans saying, hey,
(34:45):
leave these guys alone, they're good boys, let them do
their thing, let them remain neutral. I just don't understand
it. It seems like they just got some really good luck.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Well, I mean out, isn't the land not really that valuable?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Well, that's right, but still based on I guess that's
a good point. I guess that's a good point. Money
is the most important aspect of this, but so is ideology,
you know. I mean like it's just sort of symbolically speaking.
I just am not used to hearing about these iron
fisted leaders just giving a place a pass and just
you know, saying, you know what, just just going going
(35:21):
your merry way, do your thing.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
And there's been a lot of battles fought for much
more worthless land than this. I mean, I'm not saying
this is worthless land. I'm not trying to crap any memory.
And we're trying to become official members of your.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I do think it's interesting, is all. I think the
fact that it keeps flying under the radar for so
long actively, you know, when it's like no longer under
the radar, somehow it continues to get this, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
It's almost suspicious. It is a little bit at one boy.
So they do. They do also have a reputation as
being a safe harbor. They host a lot of refugees
from different parts of Italy. They host a lot of
people on the run from political problems. That time in
nineteen forty four, in September specifically, they were briefly occupied
(36:07):
by German forces, but the Allies came in, defeated the
Germans and what's known as the Battle of San Marino,
and then they they just vibed ever since then, right,
And the Germans weren't even I would say, they weren't
proactively occupying. They were on the run through San Marino
(36:29):
from the Allies, and the Allies chased them, and then
after the Allies stamped out the Germans, they left. And
so we've got another thing though, because sam Marino has
been very particular in its political beliefs, and when fascism
didn't work out, Noel I think they were the first
(36:52):
country in the world that held democratic elections to become
a communist country.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Right, super interesting. So we spent a whole lot of
time talking about how docile and non threatening San Marino
is and that relatively that stays relatively true even in
this case. But in nineteen fifty seven, there's something called
the Roverta affair, which is a crisis between San Marino's parties,
(37:22):
which are the Christian Democrats and the Communists. The Socialist
Party actually withdraws from this government coalition after a revolt
in Hungaria, the Hungarian Revolution of nineteen fifty six. And
it's during this time that you know, when there is
a communist regime in place, that the rest of Italy,
(37:46):
which of course is not a communist does see San
Marino as a threat all of a sudden, but not
a threat militarily speaking, not a threat in terms of
disrupting trade or whatever, a threat in terms of being
able to spread communist propaganda, just by their actual proximity
to the rest of the country. So they are actually
(38:07):
refused or forbidden to broadcast. And this is something that
stayed in place, i believe, until the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, and you know, we can also see the perspective
of people who are supporting a push for socialism or
communism because for centuries this place was an oligarchy of
very powerful families. Right, so the folks got fed up.
But also that's kind of a hard hammer to bring
down to say that you can't broadcast at all. It
just showed. It shows us how terrified people were during
(38:40):
the Cold War. It was the only communist country west
of the Iron Curtains, so that's right. Yeah, so it's
a big concern, but they survived. You can go to
San Marino today. It is the only Italian city state
that is around now a.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Lot like Monaco and Andorra that we've discussed before. I
think we haven't gotten the Lincoln. But it's interesting because
it kind of they like have their own language, you know.
I believe it is called Ramagnall or sorry Romanyall, which
is an old dialect of that region, you know, the
(39:19):
the Amelia Romagna region.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah. And because I did put in a snarky aside
about how their government was dudes only for a while,
we should say women gained the right to vote, they
gained suffrage and the franchise in nineteen sixty. San Marino
joined the Council of Europe in nineteen eighty eight, and
(39:42):
since the end of World War Two they have been
increasingly progressive. You can see that tourism has become a
growing source of income for the country, as has wine, cheese,
banking and finance cost cough, love.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
It, love love banking that they've got going on there.
They also have some pretty incredible architecture and the downtown
area of San Marino it displays some really incredible medieval
historic architecture, so that actually was declared a UNESCO World
Heritage Site.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Nice. Nice, And they have a lot of cool festivals
if you happen to be in town. Of course, spoiler,
the Feast of San Marino is a big one for Marinus,
the founder of the place. There is no official holiday
for the crazy heckler who drove him out of Ramini
that we know of. Maybe that's more underground. San Marino
(40:40):
has a population of like thirty three thousand, five hundred
something people, so it's still very small place.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
It's so funny it's considering its size. It definitely still
does pretty significant tourism business.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
But as far as the whole of Europe, is concerned.
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
In twenty seventeen, it received the dubious title of least
visited country in Europe.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
I just want to let you guys know I did
some quicker math during the episode. Yeah, and you know,
we're talking about how small Andorra is, and Monica is
actually a good bit smaller than this country. But and
Dora is like seven point six seven times bigger than
this country. And Doras is a little speck and barely
found on the map. It's just like, this thing is tiny.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
San Marino is a town. Uh is a country that
is a town. It's an Italian city state all its own.
We've got to give one shout out, though we're digging in.
This is a true story, fellow ridiculous historians. Once upon
a time, famous wrestler who also became US President, Abraham Lincoln,
wrote a letter to San Marino and said, quote, although
(41:47):
your dominion is small, nevertheless your state is one of
the most honored throughout history. So he wrote them some
fan mail, and they said, you know what, buddy, you're
a citizen. That's why we've been hockey about trying to
become citizens of sam Marino. Well, I mean that'd be
kind of cool, right, a Sammarinese passport.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I might have screwed us over in that one a
couple times. Maybe I'll add myself out of this episode.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
No, no, no, And I think that's where we call
it today. We hope you enjoy these journeys through micro nations, Noel, Max,
I hope you guys join me in this my new
weird thing. I'm done with hot air balloons now it's
about trying to get citizenship in micronations.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I support that much more as a co afraid of
heights person on this podcast, I hot air balloon suck.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Okay, Well, teach their own, you know what I mean?
Teach their own and if we will, we will learn
more about the hot air balloon industry in San Marino,
perhaps in another episode, but for now. Big big thanks
to super producer mister Max Williams. Big big thanks to
research associate Jeff Bartletts, Noel, who else, Big thanks to.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Alex Williams compose our themes.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, I was gonna go to Napolion and that makes
no sense in this context.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
It's certainly nothing.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Chris rascionis here in spirit Eves Jeffcoates you, Ben Max.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
We've got to be some kind of coalition or royal
Council of Regents or legates or whatever.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
We should give ourselves titles.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Let's do it. Let's do that next time, and we'll
see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so much
for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own console
or representative super producer Max, two Computers, Williams and Ben,
you're Noel, Noel. That's a that's a new nickname for
us for Max Isn't.
Speaker 2 (00:48):
It what two computers or man of the people. Oh,
it could be a compound nickname either way. They're they're
they're new. But we've always known Max is had an
affinity for operating two computers simultaneously, and also so that
he is a magnanimous dictator in his own ring.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
And today we are talking about another particular, incredibly unique community,
Ridiculous Historians. You know, if you think about it, you
and us, we're all together kind of a little nation
of our own out there in the in the world
of podcasts. Yes, we are returning to micro nations, and
(01:27):
we've been going for some of the deep cuts recently.
Monaco most people know, but a lot of people didn't
know about Andorra. And I think San Marino is a
name many of us have heard before, but we might
not know much about it. Right, is that reasonable?
Speaker 2 (01:42):
Not to be confused with Dan Marino, famous for his
role in ace Ventura Pet Detective, And I think he
also played a sport allegedly, and he never won a
super Bowl allegedly. That's just the kind of nice twist
that you're known for. Max, Now that's brutal me And
both these computers.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
Yeah, you've got one computer for the positive comments and
one for the negative. That's why you're a beast on Twitter.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Bro.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
We found something really interesting as we were preparing for
the research here. San Marino is a real country. It
is recognized by the United Nations. It is, as Noel said,
a micro nation. I mean it's very very small. Its
population is much smaller than many US states. It was
also founded entirely sort of due to a case of
(02:32):
mistaken identity. So that's like our teaser at the top.
But before we do any of that, where is San Marino? No, Like,
if we're Carmen san diegoing this, could we point to
it on a map?
Speaker 2 (02:44):
Yeah, it's sort of where the top of the boot
meets the thigh of Italy. Yeah, perfect right, right, upper leg,
upper boot region of Italy. Yeah, it is in Italy.
But it's also like non in Italy. That's part why
this story is interesting because for whatever reason, the old
Holy Roman Empire seemed to give this little area a
(03:09):
pass and then allow it to kind of go on
existing as its own you know, territory, as its own nation,
which is really unusual because as we know, the Romans
were pretty famous for conquering and for just taking stuff,
sacking you know, cities and whatnot. And somehow this area
it kind of flew under the radar for quite some time,
(03:30):
and it's pretty interesting. So it was actually found in
between three oh one and three fifty CE by a Christian,
which as to the tension there, right, a Stonemason by
the name of Marinus, the Dalmatian human. Yeah yeah, not
not the cute cartoon dog with the celebrity voice.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
He the Dalmatian in this sense.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
For first people that are part of what is today
referred to as Croatia and Montenegro. There are to day
Dalmatian Italians. They do not have spots, however, So Marinis
comes from an island named rab And It's uh, yeah,
it's right, Rab or is it rob?
Speaker 1 (04:12):
Yeah? No, do my up joke. It's pronounced the way
people in California, say Rob, I don't.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
Think we have the rab Yeah, I got it, making
sure we're on the same base. So that's yeah. And
now he comes from the hails from the island of
rab And. This island was in his original day referred
to as Arbi, like the like the hat restaurant, or Arba.
(04:39):
He had a relatively serene, idyllic not particularly happen in
life there, you know what with being a Christian at all,
though he did still technically have the potential for harassment.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah. So picture this guy as kind of working class.
He doesn't have a silver spoon, and his religious beliefs
make him a target for the Roman Empire. This is
where we get to something called the Diocletian Persecution. As
we know the Roman Empire, in addition to their love
(05:14):
of imperialism, they had a love of stamping out other
people's beliefs. And this persecution was actually the last and
the most severe persecution people who didn't vibe with the
Roman pantheon. So he high tailed it because this thing,
(05:36):
it didn't target specifically Christians common misconception, it targeted anyone
who was miscellaneous or was considered other in the Grand
scheme of Roman ideology. So, starting in three to Zho
three Common Era series, multiple emperors issued these laws that
(05:56):
took away various legal rights of Christians. And the big
thing was they said, everybody who lives here has to
make sacrifices to our gods, the pantheon of Roman gods.
And so if you, as a resident of the Roman Empire,
don't play along, you know, you don't kill the goats
or whatever when you're supposed to, then you can be
(06:17):
imprisoned or even executed. Meretis does a vibe.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
With this, Yeah, and just you know, it's it's obviously
called the the a persecution and not like a genocide.
So it wasn't mass murdering of these people. It was
just making life very very inconvenient for them. And in
some extreme cases, you know, there could be executions. Usually
that would require people to push back pretty significantly, you know,
(06:42):
or have repeat offenses. But I don't know why I
sound like I'm being an apologist for the Roman empires. Well,
you know, at least they weren't murdering everybody.
Speaker 1 (06:49):
Yeah, situations, it's it's tough to hurt the cats.
Speaker 2 (06:53):
I just loved the idea of because if you look
at the way the story is described that there are
other persecutions. Oh yeah, oh like this is a thing
that happened throughout history, and I'd never really thought about
that before. So yeah, he takes off to escape the
Diocletian persecution and he goes to a place called Remini,
(07:14):
kind of like the actress the scientology actor Leah Remini Remini,
I think it's felt exactly the same way actually, and
starts a new life. Things are going relatively well, so
as we know he's a man of faith. He becomes
a deacon in his church and starts to develop a
bit of a reputation, becomes quite popular for his religious
(07:36):
pontificating or preaching if you prefer. And so but this
doesn't exactly the kind of but you know, if you're
out in the streets, you know, giving sermons, it's not
the best way to fly under the radar, exactly.
Speaker 1 (07:48):
Yeah. Okay, so we all know performance doesn't always go
as plans, especially if you're in a live venue, and
he is. He is a local celebrity, as you said,
street preacher, and in our boy Marenus's case, things go
very very off the rails. There is a character, an
eccentric person who keeps coming around. Imagine this as the
(08:11):
worst heckler slash stalker ever she is. Apparently, before he
even got into town, she was known for being let's
say it, she was known for being insane. That's how
people considered her. And so she would show up to
his sermons. I don't want to call him performances. She
would show up to his sermons and interrupt to claim
(08:33):
loudly and repeatedly that Marenus is in fact lying about
who he is. She's saying, you are my estranged husband,
I know you Donald or whatever, and she would not
hear otherwise, and none of this is true.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Just to be clear, like this is is the ravings
of an unwell person. She has chosen to target this
individual trying to go for clean living, preaching the word
in the streets, escaping you know, persecution from the Roman Empire,
and she is just jamming up his spot.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah, the whole thing. She's messing up the show, and
so it's stuff. It reminds me. This is so weird, man.
It reminds me of I think you and I talked
about this off air, because we do hang out as friends.
One time I was a dragon can for work. We're
filming some stuff and it was at the end of
the night where everybody's partying. I walked outside just to
(09:29):
get some air, and this guy came up to me.
He's like, oh, hey, Neil, what's up? And I said,
I'm sorry, man, I'm not Neil, and then beat me
here Max. He looked me up and down and he
said fuck you, Neil, and then walked off. And I
was like, what can you do? This is like kind
of what Marinus is going through centuries earlier. And so
(09:49):
he gets a lot of unwelcome attention. The town is
starting to say, I don't know, maybe he's just running
across and so god, yeah, he can't prove he is
not this deadbeat husband.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
The story goes. So he leaves town again and again.
And it's not like he was in witness protection and
was changing his name, because you know, it wasn't the
only Roman empire certainly had spies and stuff, but this
guy wasn't exactly at the top of their list of
folks to track down at this point, right, So he
could have gone on just fine, you know, if it
(10:23):
hadn't been for this very unpleasant sounding woman. So he
does have to move again, and he he kind of
becomes something of a hermit.
Speaker 1 (10:36):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
He literally finds himself a cave to live in. He
becomes a cave dwelling kind of monk. He creates a chapel.
He builds a chapel. I assume outside of the stuff
of the cave, the cave is just for sleeping in
nighttime behavior, which is a thing, it's a whole, you know,
genre of behavior. And he establishes a monastery in the
(11:01):
mega rural area that is like a bit difficult to reach.
Speaker 1 (11:07):
Yeah, it's one of those why would you go there
places at the time. It's very remote places you described,
called Mont Titano or Mount Titan. It's the highest of
San Marino's have seven hills. And because it is so
(11:29):
in the middle of nowhere, the local secular powers don't
really clock it. They don't care, they don't know what's
going on. Other people are feeling his vibe. You know,
let's get out of the day to day rat race
of our time and let's let's focus on living Christian lives.
So people start traveling there and living in the in
(11:54):
the area of the monastery. In the chapel, Marinus is
not a saint yet because he's still alive and he's
sort of a benevolent leader. But these folks are for
all intents and purposes, they are commune, and eventually, because
they were commune where nothing goes wrong. His reputation for
being a solid dude reaches the ears of the people
(12:14):
who legally technically officially own the land.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Yeah, and they're like, yeah, you know, I mean, we
weren't really doing anything with it anyway. This guy seems
to be putting forth good works. People seem to dig
his vibe. I like the cut of his jib. I
like this whole little planned community that he's got going
on there. So why don't we just just is goog
and can bequeath this land to this community? You know,
(12:42):
one person's monastery is another person's cult. This is what
I'm just putting it out there. True, what has I
don't know, it just has it. It's no digs on
people of faith, but it's just you know, this is
like people that are kind of living rough in the mountains,
you know, kind of it feels like a planned community
kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
You know, It's it's a matter of perspective, you know,
And I think you're absolutely on the money there. It's
not offensive to say. So this, this landowner, Felissima, is
from Ramini, so she probably remembers some of the street preaching,
and she decides to do a mitzvah, although she almost certainly.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
Did not call it that, right, and a real bad look.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
Right. So, these people, this community, they're essentially mountaineers. She
gives them the land and she says, you own this
and you should always stay united in your mission, and
they take that to heart. Fast forward, Marinus dies, fast
forward again, he is canonized by the Catholic Church, and
(13:43):
so in his honor they name this land the land
of San Marino or Saint Marinas.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
Yeah, and it, you know, what was at first a
very small kind of community begins to blossom and by
the mid fifth century you have the beginnings of a
little town. M h.
Speaker 1 (14:07):
Yeah. And this is how we know that the broad
strokes of the story are true. Now, granted, we told
you the most ridiculous one about the mistaken identity driving
the guy out, but we know the high points because
there's a monk named Eugipio who says, hey, there are
solid reports that there's a holy dude a hermit or
(14:28):
a monk living on this mountain, like you said, as
early as five eleven CE. And because it's poor, there
aren'tny great resources, it's tough to get to. It succeeds
and it stays independent despite many centuries of chaos. And
then we see later reports from the ninth century that say, well,
(14:50):
now that community has thrived for centuries, and it's currently
ruled by a bishop of some sort. And you can
go back and forth and see more and more mentions
in the historical record about San Marino as it becomes
not just independent, but increasingly well organized. I think by
(15:14):
what is it, seven fifty five. It gets mentioned in
one book and they talk about how they they now
have a ruling structure of consuls, so they never had
a king. Really, this is why they have a claim
to be one of the oldest republics.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Right. And a bishop is just sort of a high
ranking member of the Christian clergy. They're also obviously Catholic bishops,
but this would have been a bishop in the Christian Church.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Yeah, this would have been at this point. Yeah. Also,
it's a little more loosey goosey, right, because of global
communication and how it didn't exist. Yeah, none of that.
Speaker 2 (15:54):
Yeah. Also part of the reason that this whole community
was able to fly into the radar for so long.
I mean, wasn't like word of this was spreading by
anything other than you know, right, people telling stories.
Speaker 1 (16:08):
Right, right, exactly. And so because the commune was religiously motivated,
because they weren't making trouble and they did not possess riches,
they scooted under the radar for quite some time. They
were also known for a series of mountain fortresses because
they did want to defend themselves if something, if something
(16:31):
untoward happened. They also got protection from local nobles.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
I think that's right. And you mentioned San Marino setting
up his kind of cave dwelling situation on one of
several peaks. I guess, so, I mean this this did
have sort of a strategic fortress like quality to it,
this whole area, which is going to come into play eventually,
(16:58):
one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (16:59):
Yeah. And the protection that they get from their geography
and from the hills and the fortresses they build, it
is further exacerbated by the protection they receive from these
these various powerful families in Italy. Maybe we talk a
(17:19):
little bit about their government. They never had a king,
they did have a self governed assembly. This was called
the erech Eringo. I want to say, eringo ar e
n g O.
Speaker 2 (17:33):
I think that sounds as this is as good a
guess as any. So this is essentially just sort of
like a council, right, This is like, yeah, so it's
a body of governance, but it's not ruled by a
single individual.
Speaker 1 (17:50):
No, it's the heads of each family, because again it's
still a really popular, really small population. And in twelve
forty three they established the these positions, these roles captain's regents,
they're the joint heads of state, and their earliest laws
in this form date back to twelve sixty three. And
(18:12):
then fast forward a few decades and the Pope agrees
the Holy See confirms the independence of San Marino in
twelve ninety one.
Speaker 2 (18:22):
Got to get something on the table. You have always
been confused as to why it's called the Holy See. See.
Maybe everyone out there that's known this for years is
laughing at me right now, but what is a c.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
It's the the etymology. We should learn that now. I
know that the Holy See is the phrase for the
universal government of the Catholic Church.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
Okay, I think it sounds to me like the etymology
is descended from the word seat, so it's like that's
their seat of government, you know, That's exactly I mean,
this is what I'm seeing with with a cursory google.
But I just always found it funny because when you
hear it, of course, in my mind I picture some
sort of mystical ocean.
Speaker 1 (19:07):
Right yeah, yeah, yeah, which would be way cooler, honestly, agreed.
Speaker 2 (19:11):
So soey, So you're telling me that at this point
the Roman Empire is aware of this place, after all
this time flying under the radar, and they do nothing.
Speaker 1 (19:21):
They don't do anything. Really. The big power that these
folks have to worry about is Catholicism, is the Vatican.
And so because San Marino is not populated by a
bunch of real bloodthirsty expansionist people, because they're not sitting
on vast reserves of minerals or whatever, and they're also
(19:44):
not at a strategically important location, it's kind of more
trouble to get them in line than it is to
ignore them.
Speaker 2 (19:53):
They just let them go on doing their thing and
they confirm their independence in twelve ninety one. It's super cool.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
I guess yeah, right, And they said, look, we want
to create the three Towers of San Marino to prevent
other nations from attacking us, because not everybody is peaceful.
They're still being realistic, and this was smart because various
people did try to attack them, various war lords, essentially Montefeltro,
(20:26):
the Maltesta of Rimini, the lords of Urbino, et cetera.
They try to conquer this thing, which is basically a village.
The land area here for a long time is just
that one mountain, probably still with that weird cave, the
highest peak where Marino initially took up residence. And in
(20:49):
fourteen sixty three the republic does lose its neutrality. They
throw in their hat in an alliance against the lord
of Remini at the time, and this name is epic.
Siggis Mondo Pandolfo Mala testa. How do you do very well?
What does he to his friends? Is he Pando? To
(21:10):
his friends?
Speaker 2 (21:11):
Sigis maybe yeah, yeah, I like I like, yes, sigis
Pando and that's right.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
And he was later on though, defeated.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
And then after that, because of this defeat, Pope Pius
the Second bestows upon San Marino, some castles, uh, and
some surrounding towns Fiorentino, Sara Valla, and Monte Giardino, which
sounds delicious, does sound good? Wait a minute, I'm a
(21:43):
little confused. So so they threw it. So San Marino
throws into an alliance against our boys, Sigis Pando, and
as a reward for defeating this guy who was bad news,
it would seem the Pope bestowed upon San Marino some boons.
Speaker 1 (21:59):
Yeah, just so spoils a war. And then later a
town named Fatano joins San Marino of their own accord.
They just decide they like the vibe and they want
to be a part of it. And since that time,
since like the fourteen sixties, the territory of San Marino
has remained unchanged. It's now by this time, by what
(22:24):
are we, middle of fifteenth century. It's ruled by a
grand council. They're all dudes, because sam Marino is not
that progressive yet, and they are from this earlier assembly
of families, and they cooperate. They play the game of geopolitics,
and they make sure that they can ward off any
(22:45):
serious attacks, any attempts to take over their land.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
And then a famous family of conquerors. You may have
heard of the Borgias, which I think Max we're talking about.
Speaker 1 (22:56):
There are they like.
Speaker 3 (22:57):
So Assassin's Creed two Daddy Born shows a bad guy
in an Assassin's Creed Brotherhood, which is the direct sequel,
his son is the bad guy. So the Borges are
all over Assassin's Creed, and the Borgia are ridiculous in
real life. Oh yeah, it's just insane. They're just a
little bit worse when you give them apples of Eden
and stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Yes, yeah, oh good call nice callback staff Eden.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
Uh huh, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
Not everybody liked that aspect of the Assassin's Creed mythos,
but it was one of my favorite parts.
Speaker 3 (23:28):
Yeah, and I don't like every person out here in
this world.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Either, all right, Geez, maxis on is his violent computer today?
Speaker 2 (23:35):
No tyrant, his tyrant absolutely.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
So.
Speaker 2 (23:39):
At this point, San Marino has been occupied by outside
militaries several times, but each time they've kind of been vanquished,
or it's just kind of they've moved on to greener bastors.
Let's just say. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:54):
Yeah. So you know, no matter how peaceful you try
to be, there will be power hungry people around right,
and they want their problems to be yours. So luckily,
each time sam Marino has been able to successfully repel
the invasion or get on the other side of it
so that they are not permanently annexed or taken over.
(24:18):
The three times you mentioned when a foreign military came in,
two were in the feudal era. Like we said, Caesar
Borgia occupies the Republic in fifteen oh three, but only
for a few months because then the old guy.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
Kicks the bucket when Seo takes him out.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
When Seo takes him out, and then you fast forward
October seventeenth, seventeen thirty nine. There is a papal governor
of Ravenna who decides to kind of go out of
pocket against the pope and uses a military force to
occupy sam Marino. He puts in a new constitution. Oh,
(24:53):
we should say his name, Cardinal Julio Alberoni, and he says,
we're going to force these people to submit to the
governance of the Pontifical states. They protest, They actually do
like you know, like you would see a protest in
the modern day. They're out there in their fists, yeah,
(25:14):
at the sky. Maybe they got signs with clever puns.
They're being civilly disobedient, and then people are sending notes
to the pope saying, come on, man, what's up with
your boy? He's harsh in the whole vibe. I love
his position title. It's a word for a papal governor,
a legate, which I also believe was a like Roman
(25:35):
official in the Roman military, because I seem to recall
if you've ever played Fallout in New Vegas, you know
how there's the whole like kind of Roman contingents that
are all like dressed in sandals and you know, kind
of Roman military garb. I believe one of the high.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Ranking baddies in that group is referred to as a legate.
Speaker 3 (25:56):
I know in the Kardashtian Empire, the high rank you
can hear is leg it because it goes leg it,
then it is goal like gold cod, and then it
goes to Glynn. Glynn is the lowest rank at least
that they say that.
Speaker 1 (26:11):
Loud leggot is a yeah, And all of these examples work.
A legate is an official rep that is sent to
a foreign country. So in the world of the Holy
see here we go, a legate is functioning as a
governor of a foreign land more or less.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
Yeah, the character can fall out New Vegas was Leggot Lanias.
By the way, good Naw, voiced by Mitch Lewis of
video game voice acting fame.
Speaker 1 (26:39):
So okay, where are we now now? Grim also has
legates in the region. Yeah, well there you go.
Speaker 2 (26:44):
Well it's the same. Those are Those are both? So
what's that company that Makethesta? This are both Mathestic games.
They love the good Leggo and Bethesta. I st we're
gonna have fast forward in history a little bit to
the late seventeen hundreds, around seventeen ninety seven, where San
(27:07):
Marino becomes a bit of a chess piece in the
Napoleonic Wars. It's a conference between France and the Papal States.
But the interesting thing is that San Marino doesn't really
kind of belong to either of them. Like they're officially
recognized by Napoleon through the Treaty of Talentino, but they
(27:30):
kind of even though on paper, you know, they belong
to Napoleon on they still kind of remain their own thing,
right I'm reading that right?
Speaker 1 (27:41):
Yeah, in practice they're still sovereign, and you nailed it,
saying that they get used as a chess piece or
people are trying to use them. Napoleon invades Italy and
he's looking for all the friends he can get, right,
so he goes to San Marino and says, look, I
very much respect your republic. You know I will well, actually,
(28:01):
if you throw down with me, then I will expand
your territory. And this is where we get to a regent.
We want to shout out Antonio Onofri. His family's a big,
big deal in San Marino and has been for many years.
Napoleon is camping nearby. He hits up the sam Ma
Reno gang and he says, publicly support me. I'll make
(28:22):
sure we get you more land, and Onofrie says, very politely,
he says, look, our big thing is not coveting our
neighbor's territory. We appreciate it. If you want to send
us some wheat or some supplies, that's dope, but we're
not about stepping on other people's toes that way. And
(28:43):
then later he says his thinking was war's end, but
neighbors remain. And I thought that was so cool because
this move, this one move likely saved their independence. If
they had thrown in with Napoleon, then when Napoleon, when
all his stuff went sideways, they would have had serious consequences.
(29:04):
They may well have been annex So, I mean, we
know things didn't end well for Napoleon. He got exiled
and then later he later things were so rough that
he had to start acting in Bill and Ted bovies
just to make ends meet. Oh man, oh man, I
love you so much.
Speaker 2 (29:24):
Was he in both of them? He was just in
the one.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
I think it was just in the one. I think
he's a producer later.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, I think that's probably accurate. What's the deal? Did
he really have his hand in his uh lapel all
the time or was that just like a myth?
Speaker 1 (29:38):
There are a couple of paintings. He also wasn't that short?
Speaker 3 (29:41):
Now, he was actually taller than Stalin was. Stalin was
like five five five six, And.
Speaker 2 (29:45):
Yeah, nobody accuse of Stalin of being a small person.
What's the deal?
Speaker 3 (29:49):
Stalin purposely kept very short people around him, and they
would have like photos of him doctored and stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
Oh yeah, for sure. He was always erasing people from
photos and stuff too.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
Yeah, Like Stalin, I think was like five five five six.
Napoleon is like widely believed to be five eight. Do
you know who is also really short? We just talked
about James Madison five to.
Speaker 1 (30:07):
Four, famously one of the I think the shortest.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
President of the shortest president of a couple of the
guys like Van Buren and Harris Benjamin Harrison, who were
like five to six. We were, you know, kind of
on the shortest stipe, but five to four.
Speaker 2 (30:19):
Well, it just goes to show that if you if
you're not the supreme victor, you know, I mean, obviously
Napoleon did quite well for himself, but then I think
he was exiled in the end. They're gonna name a
complex after you that has nothing to do with your
actual stature.
Speaker 1 (30:31):
Right right, And you know, we don't know how many
people joked about Stalin's height because to your earlier point,
he erased them from.
Speaker 2 (30:40):
History exactly, not just from photographs, from actual like reality.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
Tough time to be doing stand up in Russia.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
We're gonna get to some communist stuff in a minute too. Yeah,
that's actually where the story takes a very interesting turn.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
Yeah, so let's head to World War One. Sam Marino
is neutral. They don't take part in the conflict. Really,
they send twenty guys to help Italy on the Italian Front,
and after the war, twenty guys. Yeah, they said, twenty
people the best, their best guys. It's like they got
in a room and they said, what, who's who's got
(31:15):
some openings this weekend? And twenty guys raised their hands,
you know, well show. Yeah, so this is the change
that we were foreshadowing here. After World War One, San
Marino has a big political shift. They get super into fascism.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
Yeah, the Sammarines. Interesting word there. Fascist party took over
the government in the nineteen twenties, and in the nineteen thirties,
things actually were going quite well. The local economy was thriving.
They were building infrastructure, you know, and reinvesting in the community.
Speaker 1 (31:51):
There was a railway.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
They were trying to increase local tourism and seeming to succeed.
Speaker 1 (31:57):
You know.
Speaker 2 (31:57):
Remember let's let's still keep in mind that this place
was pretty remote and hard to get to, much like Monica.
Remember how it wasn't until they built the railways that
Monico started being more of a going concern with the
funneling and tourists to their casino. Similar Yeah, oh, in
comparison more fascists, though, very very very much fascist.
Speaker 1 (32:18):
And they so they build this railway and this helps
with the local tourism industry. But you need we also
need to understand. I put it this way in a
series about Smedley Butler called Let's Start a Coup. Fascism
at this time still had a new car smell. People
were thinking, well, you know, let's try something else. Maybe
(32:40):
a strong leader will get stuff done. Cut past the
red tape. History would prove that's incredibly incorrect and dangerous.
They did something interesting, right, This is where they realized
tourism can be a viable business. But they, like a
lot of other people, don't know. World War Two is
on the way. They stay neutral again in World War
(33:01):
Two until nineteen forty four. The British Royal Air Force
screws up and they accidentally bombed the country. Oopsie, I
mean it's a small place in the middle, you know,
it's in Italy. It's like around a mountain in.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
It It's it's an honest no one is perfect.
Speaker 3 (33:20):
They drop two bombs, you nail the whole thing.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Right, Sure, that is the inconvenient part of it, right.
Speaker 1 (33:26):
And then the German military says, we're going to occupy this.
We're going to use it as a rest and relaxation
place for our troops, and we're going to set up
hospitals there because it's neutral territory, which an army mind
means we can take over it.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
I love the idea of like a combination R and
R and hospital situation. You know, it's like when there
aren't like patients in the beds, you just kind of
use them for lounging, you know, and just watching TV.
Speaker 3 (33:51):
And it's all inside the cave.
Speaker 1 (33:53):
It's all it's still all in the cave, wondering how
could it not. I love it. I love the poetry
and this imagery of that. So Benito Mussolini, famously one
of the only bad bends, does something surprising. He steps
up for sam Marino, and he goes to his pals
in the German government and he says, look, I know
(34:15):
these guys, they're good guys. Just let them stay neutral. Okay,
do it for me, do it for Benny.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
They're blessed, aren't they. I mean, seriously, you got the pope,
a notorious pill who takes you know, I mean especially historically,
I mean, you know, the modern popes seem to have
softened a little bit. But in those days, the head
of the Holy Roman Empire, you know, for him to
give you a pass as a Christian unheard of. Now
you've got this Mussolini fellow going to the Germans saying, hey,
(34:45):
leave these guys alone, they're good boys, let them do
their thing, let them remain neutral. I just don't understand
it. It seems like they just got some really good luck.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Well, I mean out, isn't the land not really that valuable?
Speaker 2 (34:58):
Well, that's right, but still based on I guess that's
a good point. I guess that's a good point. Money
is the most important aspect of this, but so is ideology,
you know. I mean like it's just sort of symbolically speaking.
I just am not used to hearing about these iron
fisted leaders just giving a place a pass and just
you know, saying, you know what, just just going going
(35:21):
your merry way, do your thing.
Speaker 3 (35:22):
And there's been a lot of battles fought for much
more worthless land than this. I mean, I'm not saying
this is worthless land. I'm not trying to crap any memory.
And we're trying to become official members of your.
Speaker 2 (35:32):
I do think it's interesting, is all. I think the
fact that it keeps flying under the radar for so
long actively, you know, when it's like no longer under
the radar, somehow it continues to get this, you know.
Speaker 1 (35:46):
It's almost suspicious. It is a little bit at one boy.
So they do. They do also have a reputation as
being a safe harbor. They host a lot of refugees
from different parts of Italy. They host a lot of
people on the run from political problems. That time in
nineteen forty four, in September specifically, they were briefly occupied
(36:07):
by German forces, but the Allies came in, defeated the
Germans and what's known as the Battle of San Marino,
and then they they just vibed ever since then, right,
And the Germans weren't even I would say, they weren't
proactively occupying. They were on the run through San Marino
(36:29):
from the Allies, and the Allies chased them, and then
after the Allies stamped out the Germans, they left. And
so we've got another thing though, because sam Marino has
been very particular in its political beliefs, and when fascism
didn't work out, Noel I think they were the first
(36:52):
country in the world that held democratic elections to become
a communist country.
Speaker 2 (36:59):
Right, super interesting. So we spent a whole lot of
time talking about how docile and non threatening San Marino
is and that relatively that stays relatively true even in
this case. But in nineteen fifty seven, there's something called
the Roverta affair, which is a crisis between San Marino's parties,
(37:22):
which are the Christian Democrats and the Communists. The Socialist
Party actually withdraws from this government coalition after a revolt
in Hungaria, the Hungarian Revolution of nineteen fifty six. And
it's during this time that you know, when there is
a communist regime in place, that the rest of Italy,
(37:46):
which of course is not a communist does see San
Marino as a threat all of a sudden, but not
a threat militarily speaking, not a threat in terms of
disrupting trade or whatever, a threat in terms of being
able to spread communist propaganda, just by their actual proximity
to the rest of the country. So they are actually
(38:07):
refused or forbidden to broadcast. And this is something that
stayed in place, i believe, until the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Yeah, and you know, we can also see the perspective
of people who are supporting a push for socialism or
communism because for centuries this place was an oligarchy of
very powerful families. Right, so the folks got fed up.
But also that's kind of a hard hammer to bring
down to say that you can't broadcast at all. It
just showed. It shows us how terrified people were during
(38:40):
the Cold War. It was the only communist country west
of the Iron Curtains, so that's right. Yeah, so it's
a big concern, but they survived. You can go to
San Marino today. It is the only Italian city state
that is around now a.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
Lot like Monaco and Andorra that we've discussed before. I
think we haven't gotten the Lincoln. But it's interesting because
it kind of they like have their own language, you know.
I believe it is called Ramagnall or sorry Romanyall, which
is an old dialect of that region, you know, the
(39:19):
the Amelia Romagna region.
Speaker 1 (39:22):
Yeah. And because I did put in a snarky aside
about how their government was dudes only for a while,
we should say women gained the right to vote, they
gained suffrage and the franchise in nineteen sixty. San Marino
joined the Council of Europe in nineteen eighty eight, and
(39:42):
since the end of World War Two they have been
increasingly progressive. You can see that tourism has become a
growing source of income for the country, as has wine, cheese,
banking and finance cost cough, love.
Speaker 2 (39:59):
It, love love banking that they've got going on there.
They also have some pretty incredible architecture and the downtown
area of San Marino it displays some really incredible medieval
historic architecture, so that actually was declared a UNESCO World
Heritage Site.
Speaker 1 (40:20):
Nice. Nice, And they have a lot of cool festivals
if you happen to be in town. Of course, spoiler,
the Feast of San Marino is a big one for Marinus,
the founder of the place. There is no official holiday
for the crazy heckler who drove him out of Ramini
that we know of. Maybe that's more underground. San Marino
(40:40):
has a population of like thirty three thousand, five hundred
something people, so it's still very small place.
Speaker 2 (40:49):
It's so funny it's considering its size. It definitely still
does pretty significant tourism business.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
But as far as the whole of Europe, is concerned.
I think it was.
Speaker 2 (40:57):
In twenty seventeen, it received the dubious title of least
visited country in Europe.
Speaker 3 (41:05):
I just want to let you guys know I did
some quicker math during the episode. Yeah, and you know,
we're talking about how small Andorra is, and Monica is
actually a good bit smaller than this country. But and
Dora is like seven point six seven times bigger than
this country. And Doras is a little speck and barely
found on the map. It's just like, this thing is tiny.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
San Marino is a town. Uh is a country that
is a town. It's an Italian city state all its own.
We've got to give one shout out, though we're digging in.
This is a true story, fellow ridiculous historians. Once upon
a time, famous wrestler who also became US President, Abraham Lincoln,
wrote a letter to San Marino and said, quote, although
(41:47):
your dominion is small, nevertheless your state is one of
the most honored throughout history. So he wrote them some
fan mail, and they said, you know what, buddy, you're
a citizen. That's why we've been hockey about trying to
become citizens of sam Marino. Well, I mean that'd be
kind of cool, right, a Sammarinese passport.
Speaker 3 (42:08):
I might have screwed us over in that one a
couple times. Maybe I'll add myself out of this episode.
Speaker 1 (42:12):
No, no, no, And I think that's where we call
it today. We hope you enjoy these journeys through micro nations, Noel, Max,
I hope you guys join me in this my new
weird thing. I'm done with hot air balloons now it's
about trying to get citizenship in micronations.
Speaker 2 (42:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (42:30):
I support that much more as a co afraid of
heights person on this podcast, I hot air balloon suck.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Okay, Well, teach their own, you know what I mean?
Teach their own and if we will, we will learn
more about the hot air balloon industry in San Marino,
perhaps in another episode, but for now. Big big thanks
to super producer mister Max Williams. Big big thanks to
research associate Jeff Bartletts, Noel, who else, Big thanks to.
Speaker 2 (42:57):
Alex Williams compose our themes.
Speaker 1 (42:58):
Yeah, I was gonna go to Napolion and that makes
no sense in this context.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
It's certainly nothing.
Speaker 1 (43:06):
Chris rascionis here in spirit Eves Jeffcoates you, Ben Max.
Speaker 2 (43:11):
We've got to be some kind of coalition or royal
Council of Regents or legates or whatever.
Speaker 1 (43:18):
We should give ourselves titles.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
Let's do it. Let's do that next time, and we'll
see you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to your favorite shows
Ridiculous History News
Hosts And Creators
Ben Bowlin
Noel Brown
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