August 7, 2025 • 39 mins
Human civilization is far from perfect. Still, it's pretty cool humanity overall agreed on how to measure time (for now). In today's follow-up to an earlier exploration of the Gregorian calendar, Ben, Noel and Max admire the many alternative, non-Gregorian calendars with their own ancient provenance, all of which exist in the modern day. Or modern night? Spoiler, a ton of these are based on the passage of the moon.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear for our super producer,
mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Has a has a uh huh.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yes, zoom zoom zoom. That's mister Noel Brown. They call
me Ben bowling around this neck of the global woods.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Indeed they do. And boy, oh boy, do we have
a bit of a follow up for you today, also
from the mighty mental coffers of our research associate Exchurinair,
Jeff the G Train Bartlet, Jeff the g Sauce G
Love and Special Trained Sauce.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Gene Factor Unit factor G is.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
What is what Jeff has has chosen as his hallowed.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm sorry, I'm making a bit out of it.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Oh, it's fantastic. We love Gene Unit.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Wasn't that fifty cents crew?
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Gregorian? Yeah? G Unit is fifty cents crew of of old.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Speaking of fifty cent have you seen the new Happy
Gilmour movie?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I have not.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
No, Yeah, it's some people are not super fond of it,
but it does have a pretty funny cameo from Eminem
who apparently introduced the world to fifty cent very well.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yes, and if you have tuned into our earlier episode
this week, you know that we already had a very
strange exploration of the origin of the current calendar. The
Gregorian calendar. It's the one that everybody used, is for
international coordination. So if it's the reason someone can say
(02:07):
Wednesday in Kazakhstan and there still also be a Wednesday
in July in Kazakhstan, and someone in the US can
agree there is a July and there is a Wednesday.
But as we alluded to, the Gregorian calendar, despite being
the de facto world's calendar, is far from the only
calendar still in use. People are going to use the
(02:38):
Gregorian calendar for all kinds of things, but then for
all sorts of other reasons they may use other calendars.
And some of the most famous and well known alternate
calendars we could call them, come from religious beliefs. Maybe
we start with the Hebrew calendar.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
We must. Both the Gregorian and the Hebrew calendar are
used in surprise, surprise, Israel, but secular activities and schedulings
are measured using the Gregorian calendar.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, so this would be like your school holidays, your
business meetings, a lot of birthday celebrations, Grigorian calendar stuff. Festivals, however,
are determined by the Hebrew calendar, and there's usually going
to be a Jewish holiday every month in that calendar.
This calendar also determines the Torah portion of each Shabbat.
(03:32):
In addition, it's used to plan memorial services when a
loved one passes. The Hebrew calendar is heavily influenced by
the Jewish exile in Babylon in the sixth century BCE.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And just out of my own curiosity, I just want
to clarify that a Torah portion just refers to the
readings that are selected for those particular chabots.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yes, yeah, absolutely so. According to the Bible, there were
ten months of thirty days each before this exile. There
are only four months in the Bible a Ev which
means spring, Zev, Ethane, and.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Bull, which are like these are seasons. We still have these,
We just refer to them as seasons rather than months.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, we know that calendar days in the Gregorian system
are measured differently than calendar days in the Hebrew system.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Correct. According to the Hebrew calendar sunsets starts the day.
We talked a little bit about this in the previous episode.
So soon as the sun sets on Friday evening, Shabat
begins and as soon as the sunsets Shabat ends.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
And the Jewish calendar has its own system of months,
we don't need to list them all for you because
we will get in over our heads very quickly. We
say that with deep respect. So we do have the
entirety of the breakdown and the list and how it
coordinates with the Gregor calendar, how you'd interpret it through
(05:02):
the Gregorian system. But the thing you need to know
is that these are different calendars. The people who practice
both of these calendars do constantly have to compare and
contrast them. The length of the months, for instance, chez
Vaon and Kislev, they're determined by these pretty sophisticated calculations
(05:25):
that are all meant to make sure Rashashana falls.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
On the right day. Yeah, so they're using those high
holy days as benchmarks to hit. The Jewish calendar is
a lunar calendar, with each month beginning with the new moon.
And the problem, however, with you holding a strictly lunar
calendar is that there are approximately twelve point four lunar
(05:51):
months in each solar year. So a twelve month cycle
or twelve month calendar is just a little bit too short,
and that's when you start really getting those hiccups in
offsets of time.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, we're in a real Goldilocks parable. So, as he said,
an old twelvemonth calendar a little too short, thirteen month
calendar a little too long. And if we hold to
either of those calendars absolutely, then the year will drift
in relation to the season. So it's the same problem
(06:24):
we saw in the Julian calendar. So for example, if
we're only using a twelvemonth lunar calendar, the Hebrew calendar's
month of Nissan, which is supposed to occur in the spring,
would eventually fall back to the winter, the fall, and
then the summer. And this is a huge deal. It's
(06:45):
something you want to avoid because most holidays and festivals
have traditionally been tied to the seasons as well as
to the dates during which they're celebrated. So if we
go to the fourth century, we meet a guy named
I Lelle the second who said he was going to
fix it.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yep, and he created a remedied a Jewish calendar in
which the month of Adar is repeated every third, sixth, eighth, eleventh, fourteenth, seventeenth,
and nineteenth year in a nineteen year cycle. These are
just words that I'm saying to you in order for
(07:23):
Passover to always occur during the month of Nissan, while
the Jewish New Year happens during the month of Tisstree.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, did you hear me? Under my breath? They say,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Because we're here, We're there.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Someone said what about the twelfth and they were hellled
the second and said get him out of here.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, this does not sound like a fix to me.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
That sounds absurd, But you nailed it absolutely when you said, hey,
this is because of the purpose of the calendar. All
these fixes are to ensure the correct commemoration celebration of
these holy days. Also, so that's why we have a blend.
(08:07):
And I love a blend.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Love a blend. No, No one more than Ben loves
a blend. No, what's your what's your favorite fabric blend?
I'm like a rayon cotton kind of guy myself.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I like that. I like a rayon cotton. Gosh, I
don't know, you're asking someone with synaesthesia. That's gonna take forever.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Okay, okay, get back to us.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, yeah, okay, let's get back to the calendar. So
there's also a different kind of origin point or starting
point for this calendar. The year number on the Hebrew
calendar represents the number of years since the creation of humanity,
and that is calculated by adding up the ages of
(08:52):
people in the Bible all the way back to the
time of creation.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Stop it. That's who it is that talk about arbitrary.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Well, it depends on how solid the calculations are and
how literally or figuratively we interpret the ages of people
in the Bible, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So that we're talking about the ages of humans represented
in the Bible, the number of years they're meant to
have been, that just seems so odd to choose that metric.
But I guess you got to choose something. Isn't that
kind of what it amounts to?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
You do have to choose something. Yeah, if you want
an origin point, and you also have to figure out
how much importance and trust you place in this religious text,
you know what I mean? This doesn't necessarily mean the
universe overall has only existed for five seven hundred years
(09:51):
in change. Many people who practice Judaism, including Orthodox Jews,
will readily acknowledge that the first six days of creation
are not necessarily twenty four hour days.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
He was still figuring it out.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
There were still yet, they were still in the ideation brainstorming.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Phase, spitballing.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, the argument here does seem pretty logical. It's the
idea that before the sun was created on the fourth
wish Wish Day, twenty four hour day as a concept
would be meaningless.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
That is very true.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Ben right, that's not all right idea, But I the lot.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, no, no, God, God was a smart fellow. So
let's move on to the Hindu calendar, the Indian calendar
that operates in three major forms, all in parallel, and
that's apart from the Islamic calendar, which is used by
(10:52):
Indian Muslims. So the Gregorian calendar is the default calendar
again for non religious purposes. However, the d national calendar
is used by the government. It seemed problematic if you're
trying to sink things up with the rest of the
world and several Hindu calendars as well.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, exactly so. Again we see this hybrid approach for
people on the ground. If you have a zoom call
for your business, you're scheduling that with a Gregorian calendar.
If you have a zoom call for government purposes, it's
on the Indian National calendar, and which.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
To be clear, isn't the same as the Gregorian calendar,
which sure was a misreading. Okay, yeah, different things.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And if you are a celebrating religious holiday, you would
use a Hindu calendar. The Hindu calendar, as we understand
it was developed in antiquity by various scholars on the
Indian subcontinent, so multiple people contributed to this over time.
We know the earliest mention of this reckoning of time
(11:58):
can be found in the Veda, which date back as
far as twelve hundred BCE, So it's.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
They've been very important religious text.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely, they've been workshopping this for quite
a while. And just like other calendars, this system is
based on the motion of the moon.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Correct, the lunar year is made up of three hundred
and fifty four days. That's compared to three hundred and
sixty five and a quarter days in the Gregorian calendar,
which a kind of every time we say it's them ridiculous,
which is of course based on the solar system, and
that gap increases to a month over a period of
three years. So for that very reason, the Hindu lunar
(12:37):
calendar has an extra month similar to the Jewish calendar
every three years called adik Adik. During that month, very
important religious events and going z ons like weddings are
should be avoided.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, I mean, and think about that too practical terms, Right,
how are you going to celebrate your first few wedding
anniversaries when the month you were married in doesn't exist?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, it's a tricky one.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
It's a tough one, right, More vibe based.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
It also shows us an interesting difference in approach. Whereas
Western clindrical systems tried to minimize discrepancies over time, you
could argue the Hindu lunar calendar accelerated the pattern of
discrepancy by building in a more frequent adjustment period. So
(13:35):
we're not saying one's better than the other. We're just
saying they never say that, right, They're approaching the same
concern through very different ways. And the Hindu calendar system,
by the way, folks, is so much more complex would
be the right word than the Western calendar.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, that's true, and this could be considered a feature,
not a bug. It offers a very precise, multi dimensional
approach to the structuring of time, and it combines a
lot of different layers of information, including lunar days, solar days,
lunar months, solar months, and the movement of the Sun
and moon in relation to other celestial bodies, as well
(14:20):
as other spans of time that are defined by astronomy.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, they said, we're gonna take everything into account, whereas
the humble Western calendar is built around two primary units
of time, solar days and solar years.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Bit of a dummy calendar compared, it's.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
A bit of a passage of the heavens for dummies. Yes,
to complicate things a little bit more. If you guys
heard about If you guys are just learning about this
and you're saying, hey, I wish this was more confusing.
There's also not one single Hindu calendar, which is why
you've been hearing us refer to it in the plural.
Sometimes each country and region uses its own variant and
(15:05):
interpretation of this ancient system. The Indian national calendar we
mentioned earlier, was standardized since nineteen fifty seven, also known
as the Sokka calendar, and it represents only one of
the many variations of the Hindu calendar. So again, you
could be a practicing Hindu in this part of the world,
(15:30):
and you could follow the Indian national calendar with its
Hindu influence, and then you could follow the Gregorian calendar
for business, and then you could follow your family or
community's own personal Hindu calendar, which may be a little different.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I'll take passage of time for dummies, please.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right right, It's a looney solar calendar.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Luni and lunar. And speaking of those things, or at
least one the lunar part, why don't we move on
to the Chinese lunar calendar, which you may or may
not have heard of.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Love it, love it. It is essentially a lunar calendar.
As you said, modern day China, like so many other countries,
heavily relies on the Gregorian calendar. But this traditional lunar
calendar is still our go to authority on when to
celebrate things like the lantern festival, when to fined it auspacial,
(16:24):
this New Year, yeah, Chinese New Year, When to find
an auspicious date for a wedding, a funeral, moving anything.
You can imagine. This calendar has twelve months or twenty
nine or thirty days, and each of them begins on
the first day of a new moon. And then if
you need to correct the calendar drift, you just add
(16:45):
a leap month. When a leap month now, well, they
had a leap month in the earlier in the Indian
calendar too.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I guess that's true. That's true. We got leap months
rather than days that are Yeah, of course that's exactly right. Then,
but that is the first time I think we've seen
it referred to as a leap month.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I think also just added as needed. They have a
little willy nilly ad hoc. It feels like a great
way to get out of meetings.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
By the way, it sure does. Just add a leap
month in each of these months can be referred to.
A month of the Chinese calendar can be referred to
by an animal name or a number that corresponds to
hours of the day as well gues. It's another super
layered calendar as well as the zodiac cycle, and in
(17:31):
order of occurrence, animals are again, these are pretty popular
in Western culture as well, the rat, the ox, the tiger,
the hare, the snake, the dragon, the horse, the sheep,
the monkey, the foul, the dog, and the pig. And
aren't there like you can be like a metal pig.
There's like different add ons to each of these animal
(17:52):
deities as well.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, and this is something that's really common in a
lot of our favorite restaurants here in the United States
who might get a placement with the Chinese horoscopes on it, right,
and then you'll be able to calculate based on not
just your month of birth, but also the year. So
you know, Western astrology will typically after twelve once upon
(18:15):
a time, thirteen sun signs and those are all based
on a specific period of rising signs right right in
the Chinese calendar. It's not just based on the month,
it's also based on the year you're born. And it's
pretty interesting stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, And there are different versions of this as well,
even within the region. We see different variations in Vietnam
and Korea as well as the Ryuku Islands.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
We mentioned the zodiac system. One other thing to know
is that in this twelve year zodiac cycle, each year
is assigned an animal. Each animal is associated with a
personality that is supposed to be representative of the year
and those born during that year. So, for instance, as
(19:04):
we're recording here in twenty twenty five, this is the
year of the snake.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Watch out, watch you right.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, the story goes that the Jade Emperor, once upon
a time declared the first animal to cross a river
will be the first in the calendar. The second r arbitrary. Yeah,
the second animal will be second. And then you guys
get the pattern I'm putting down, and they were like, yes, Emperor.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Okay the rest. So yeah, this is a parable Of course,
there was the cat and the rat who asked the
ox for a little little bit of a piggyback ride.
This is like the tortoise and the hair situation where
the squarey ox reached the bank and then the crafty
rat pushed the cat into.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
The river and then the rat jumps off the ox,
and that's how the rat gets to be first because
he's a cheater. And then the tiger comes after the
who's followed by the rabbit. And then the rabbit has
this adventure kind of like Frogger, jumping from rock to
rock and leaps on a log that gets blown to
the shore. Then the dragon shows up, and the dragon, Look,
(20:12):
the interpretation of reptilian creatures is way different in Chinese mythology.
So the snake's not necessarily bad. Neither is the dragon.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, the dragon doesn't give them right like he's got
he's out there dragoning, you know, like controlling the laws
of nature and whatnots because of him that the rabbit's
little log got blown ashore in the first place. So
one could argue the dragon is kind of the Diosex
Makina of the whole affair.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
One hundred percent. And also right, yes, yes, fusta, the
dragon here is a good guy, is doing a little
bit of a rescue mission. This dragon has stopped to
bring rain to a village. The snake takes sixth place.
The horse shows up in seventh place. The rooster sometimes
(21:02):
identified as the fowl as mentioned earlier, finds a raft
and rides the raft with the monkey and the goat
across the river. Yeah yeah, and so the goat is
the eighth month, the monkey the ninth, the rooster of
the tenth.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yep, what about the dog. The dog had distracted, didn't
he He was splashing around picking up sticks and rocks
just chasing his tail, not a care in the world.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, it's like watching golden retrievers try to race, you
know what I mean, they're just having.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Too much fun, they are. Yeah, why not? He did, however,
beat the pig. It was apparently wallowing in his own.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Shit and stopped for a meal and then had a nap.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Had a wallow, a meal, and a nap in that order.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Classic Saturday. But even the pig did better than the cat.
Here's where it takes a dark turn. When the rat
pushed the cat into the river. The cat drowned. Save
for the cat, it's a pretty interesting story.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I don't buy it cats are to go that would happen. Yeah,
I don't know. I guess cats are freaked out by water,
though we.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Need to know a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah, but the myth that cats can't swim, Cats are
actually pretty competent swimmers. They hate it every second that
they're not. Also are actually kind of go at swimming
because they get out.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I mean the amazing animated film Flow for evidence.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Love it. Flow is so good. Or if you want
to disassociate, just watch some YouTube clips of tigers swimming.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Man, they're amazing tigers might be my favorite cats. Sorry,
I'm apologizing to my own cats now, Oh no, they know,
they know you. Yeah, we'll see. So uh. We know
then that the Chinese calendar has this deep lore and
as does the Chinese zodiac, they play a heavy role
in modern Chinese life. This calendar also marks the country's
(22:49):
biggest holiday. If you talk to any average Chinese national,
they're going to know their zodiac, the sign under which
they were born. What they might I not know is
that each side also matches a month of the year
and a season of the year like the Western astrological signs.
So it's interesting. But we're already you know, as we're continuing,
(23:11):
we're seeing a pattern. A lot of these alternative calendars
are lunar based. So with that, since we've mentioned the
Hebrew and the Chinese and the Hindu calendars, we've got
to mention the amazing accomplishments of the Islamic calendar because
they don't use leap months, they don't use leap days,
(23:33):
they don't play that game.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Much like the Dragon and the Chinese calendar, the Islamic
calendar don't give it sh They don't care about the
drifts they're fine with it.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
They embrace the drift. The named months slowly retrogress throughout
the solar year, taking thirty two and a half years
to reoccur at the same seasonal time. So there's a
thirty two and a half year I guess.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
What could call it a drift cycle, but it repeats
could on that period, and I fully support you doing so, Ben.
It does still, however, have an important religious benchmark that
it isn't necessarily trying to achieve or trying to get
to work backwards to get to it just uses that
as the start date of the whole damn thing.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Right, Yes, yeah, the prophet Mohammad's prais Beyantoo journey from
Meta to Medina, the Higeira, that's the start date of
the calendar. And so in all modern Muslim countries as
we know you will see the Islamic calendar often used
for religious or ceremonial or personal spiritual purposes, and the
(24:47):
Gregorian calendar is used for civil purposes. Like when we
can say this, when we were in Cutter not too
long ago, just like everybody else in the region, people
are using the Gregorian calendar. But then when you go
to the mosque or when you enter certain holy sites.
The Islamic calendar is your main guy.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Makes sense, it makes sense, and it's it's common. Uh.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I mean, it doesn't make sense, but it makes sense
that they would choose.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
To do it, Okay, I mean that hybrid approach makes
sense in that so many other places do something similar, right, right,
And the Islamic calendar is based on twelve months, but
they're lunar months, and they begin when the thin crescent
moon is actually sighted in the western sky after sunset
(25:40):
a day or so after the new moon. And this
is important for the purposes of the Islamic calendar. This
sighting must be made with the unaided eye.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Gopy.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
That. Yeah, it's something that differentiates it from a lot
of other lunar calendars. Now we know that the twelve
lunar months add up to three fifty four or three
hundred and fifty five days, so the Islamic calendar will
drift about ten days a year, and that means that Ramadan,
the month of fasting, can happen either in summer or winter,
(26:13):
depending on its cycle in the calendar.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
You know, I dig. The flexibility of this setup not
gonna lie The Islamic calendar is also generally only used
for religious holidays like you said, Ben and not civil events.
In most Islamic countries, Gregorian calendars are used to track
these public events. Iranian and Afghan countries, however, use something
called the solar Hezrii calendar, which is an exception to
(26:37):
the whole civil event rule. And this comes from calendar
dot com, which, of course it's a thing that exists.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yes, yes, which we've referenced in the past. You know,
let's go back to this idea of observing the rise
of the new moon. This is a bit of a
bag of badgers. There's a bit of a pickle because
you are required to cite that passage of the moon
with the unab did i. Each country makes its own observation,
(27:04):
and it gets tricky when you realize that the sun
sets later as you head farther west, and the conditions
might make the moon easier or harder to see in
one particular place instead of another. So the result can
be that two Muslim countries who are on the same
page about literally everything else, maybe in different months of
(27:25):
the calendar, at the same time.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, now you lost me. Yeah, we you know, it
is that I like the setup of flexibility, but that
started to get.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
You might win some, but you just have. So we
know that this is something that countries are actively putting
their heads around in the modern day because these kinds
of calendars, this kind of practice made a lot of
sense when the world was less connected. Right when you when.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It's true, when you got your own kind of bubble, right,
that's all really matter.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
If you're living in Connecticut, you don't need to make
sure you're on the same page with Malaysia in the
seventeen hundreds, because you're never going to go to Malaysia.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Probably not. Probably are low. Chances are low.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Chances are low unless you're like a whaler America or
a teleporter or teleporter quite common in Connecticut in the
seventeen hunder.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, Connecticut Yankee. He kind of was a teleporter traveler.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Anyway, think about it. We're just saying, think about it.
So there are some signals that different countries practicing the
Islamic calendar may start using calculations instead of observations with
the unaided eye, but not everyone's agreed on the best
way to do that, and not everyone's agreed that they
(28:49):
actually want to do that.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And you'll also probably remember when we were in Cutter
we visited the Museum of Islamic Culture and some of
the most incredible, like illuminated texts I've ever seen. Just
think that the script that is used, of course is gorgeous,
and the calligraphy and all of that. But there were
also a lot of exhibits regarding astronomy.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Oh one hundred percent. And we owe the scientists and
the scholars of that period, especially in the days of
the automance, we owe them a.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Great deal, for sure, no question about it. We could
go on about the Islamic calendar, and we have, but
for the purposes of time, we're going to move on
to the international fixed calendar. This one is one that
I honestly was not aware of, at least in these terms.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah. It's kind of like how Esperanto is the universal
language that no one speaks. So we have tried to
fix the calendar. The fixed calendar is an alternative system
for keeping time. And here's our pitch. Every month has
exactly twenty eight days. Okay, no extra log or extra
(30:02):
short months.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Twenty eight days. That's so all you get.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
The idea here is consistency. Every month also has four
weeks that always begin on a Sunday the first and
end on Saturday, the twenty eighth. Every month's days are
the same number. Every single seventeenth is a Tuesday. The
first Friday of the month is always the sixth.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Now, okay, I don't mind this so far. Is there
any reason it didn't take off? Because it seems that
it would make scheduling and planning kind of a breeze
from mine. I do have a twist for you, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Of course, Max Shoes, I will.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Say, like, I'm pretty sure this is the same one
I wrote about this one in the Leapier episode where
it's like this guy and he's just like very angry
about this thing, and everything I read about him was
him just angry about the Greg Gorning calendar. So I
was like, I'm gonna stick with Greg Goring calendar out
of spite to this guy.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So yeah, let's keep you going. Here's the twist. Here's
the twist. So far, so good, it says our compatriot nol.
The issue is twenty eight days in each month. That's
more fair to the individual months. It only adds up
to three hundred and thirty six days total in the year.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So to fix the fixed calendar you have to add
a new thirteenth month between June and July.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
So it's not fixed at all. I mean, I think
in the context of the title, wouldn't fix refer to
like being immovable rather than like repaired?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Right, right? Right? Well, I think maybe in both senses
is the ambition. But they added that month between June
and July, which throws our whole summer baby thing way off.
You have soul sweet summer child right to represent the summer,
so like the old word for the sun. So now
(31:41):
that we have this extra month, the total goes to
three hundred and sixty four. We only have one day still,
one short leftover. It's always the one day, right, And
so here's what the fixed calendar says. They say, Look
forget it, guys, school's out once a year. We're just whatever.
We'll call it a celebration day. It's after Saturday.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
It's after Saturday's December twenty eighth, because remember all months
or twenty eight now, but both.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Swimming will wear party hats. I think pink lemonade, pint
grown tights.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yes, the rise of cloud bits will have you know,
we'll have bingo, We'll have the file Day. You know, Yeah,
we'll have a field Day. It is literally a celebration
that occurs after the last official day of the year,
but before the beginning official day of the next year, Sunday,
(32:36):
January first, and they call it year Day.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I think I'm into this still. I think I'm on
board with the International Fixed Calendar.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Because of your day, because there's a party. Is that, yes, yes,
your day.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
It sounds like a hoot. It sounds like a hoot.
I'm just being contrarian.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I like my calendar being confusing. I like my calendar
being extra I watch to be challenge.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Some I'm being positively contrarian. Death I thing.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I like. It reminds me of the kind of logic
in some of my favorite young adult books, Sideways Stories
from which it was Sideway Stories from Wayside high Wayside
for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah remember those This stuff was all wacky wayside high.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Right sometimes took a dark turn. That's kind of what's
happening with your day because the day falls on December
twenty ninth, logically, but the calendar's official line is it
falls on no day.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Of the week. It's just saying school not even high.
It was just Wayside School by Lewis Sacker. I remember
that book from the Book Fair. There's like a creepy,
witchy looking teacher with like elf ears on the front.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, there's a there's a story in the school that
doesn't exist. This was cool because this was a sleeper
hit right up there with scary stories to tell in the.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Dark bro book Fair books when a kid were a mad,
like irresponsibly dark.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I think it wrecked us in some ways. Scary stories
of telling the dark. Illustrations alone, which were pretty beautifully
captured in that Guillemo del Toro produced. Yeah, adaptation which
wasn't like great, but like I thought, they did a
cool job of translating those freaky drawings into you know,
character design. But yeah, that book messed me up.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Man, I loved it.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
It probably did affect the way there then her head
fell off.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, the worms crawled in, the worms crawled out. Yeah,
Oh I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
They played pein what even his pe knuckle?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's a card game also like winks, It's just it's
a card game that I really don't want us to
have to try to get into explain it Is it
like pog It's like pog. Okay, I'm played up the
definition from Britannica. It's like a trick taking ace ten
card game for the forty eight card deck. It's derived
from the card game busique.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Oh yes, of course, bisique h with Middle Eastern roots.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
It's the wait I thought you would be sarcastic. Oh
you know, phsique? Is it not?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I think it seems like it would. It's I don't know,
it seems like it would be an ancient card game.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Oh gosh, I'm derailing us.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We're derailing, derailing all the way to a close. We
got a episode. I think I think that's time we
got to.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Get back on the rails here. This newly proposed fixed
calendar is meant to overcome a lot of the challenges
we talked about earlier. The advantages are obvious, but it
has not been adopted because of kind of a time
measurement version of path dependence. People are just really committed
(35:44):
to the existing calendars they practice, regardless of how imperfect
those may be.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, brand loyalty, you know, I mean, if I can
jump in here, this is this is my honest thick
actually is a greg Woring calendar is not very far off.
I think it's the year's like forty nine one hundred
is when we'll actually have to make an adjustment for
the first time. But the other one is it feels
like it might be one of these things where it's
gonna cost more pain to instituted in.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Right, then, just keep with what we got.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, We've seen it in so many other industries and fields.
You know. Honestly, it's the reason Japan still uses fax
machines all the time because we already have the fax machines, right,
so how much will it cost to replace them?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
You know?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Or maybe Big Calendar is entering the fray. Maybe they
just don't want things to change. Or Noel, I'm going
to say it. Maybe Max is anti year day.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Hey, Max is anti fun and Max's anti birthday.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Your day is like one of the best holidays. We
could get Hawaiian shirts that say no day of the week.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Uh, I don't know why your day seems Hawaii thing
to me. At this point, I'm spitballing. We'll figure out
your day. Tell us how you want to celebrate it.
We are going to wrap up by telling you that.
There have, of course been multiple other less successful attempts
at calendars. One of my favorite, of course is the
Jucha calendar of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea DPRK.
(37:14):
Street named North Korea and got their own calendar.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Hell yeah, go weird different calendar, and weird is the
wrong word. These are all very much tied to culture
and tradition and myth making and all of that. It's
a complex cosmic gumbo that yields all these fascinating different calendars.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, we used to say that on set. It's kind
of a cosmic gumbo. We did. We know that there
are some calendars that were very much motivated by political changes.
The French Republican calendar the Soviet calendar both purposely created
to move society away from the influence of monarchs and religion,
(37:56):
and the Soviet calendar to expressly make where output levels
were high. That's that's how that's how they got to
get a good yield. You got to get a good yield.
There are so many other things we could talk about.
I'd love maybe to do a history in the future
about the various self created calendars occult leaders.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Why not they don't take great. Yeah, but did Apple
White have a calendar?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
He had a calendar with an end date.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
The Heaven's Gate guy, yeah, the bald guy in the sky. Yeah. No, No,
this is interesting, Ben, It's not occurred to me. I
would love to go into this sometime, maybe on stuff
they don't want you to know.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Yeah, it's good, we'll see. We'll check what day it is.
And as we're gearing up to celebrate our first year
day together, I just love the name.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, I'm all for it. Sign me up for the
International Fixed Calendar.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
And please site us up as some of your biggest fans,
ridiculous historians. Thank you so much for tuning in and
supporting the show. Big shout out to our super producer,
mister Max Williams. Big shout out to Jeff Factor, G Bartlett,
our research associate, and of course, our guy who created
his own calendar, Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Every day is Jday Long, May he rain. We'll see
you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows,
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear for our super producer,
mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Has a has a uh huh.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Yes, zoom zoom zoom. That's mister Noel Brown. They call
me Ben bowling around this neck of the global woods.
Speaker 2 (00:46):
Indeed they do. And boy, oh boy, do we have
a bit of a follow up for you today, also
from the mighty mental coffers of our research associate Exchurinair,
Jeff the G Train Bartlet, Jeff the g Sauce G
Love and Special Trained Sauce.
Speaker 1 (01:05):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Gene Factor Unit factor G is.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
What is what Jeff has has chosen as his hallowed.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
I'm sorry, I'm making a bit out of it.
Speaker 1 (01:15):
Oh, it's fantastic. We love Gene Unit.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
Wasn't that fifty cents crew?
Speaker 1 (01:21):
Gregorian? Yeah? G Unit is fifty cents crew of of old.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
Speaking of fifty cent have you seen the new Happy
Gilmour movie?
Speaker 1 (01:31):
I have not.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
No, Yeah, it's some people are not super fond of it,
but it does have a pretty funny cameo from Eminem
who apparently introduced the world to fifty cent very well.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Yes, and if you have tuned into our earlier episode
this week, you know that we already had a very
strange exploration of the origin of the current calendar. The
Gregorian calendar. It's the one that everybody used, is for
international coordination. So if it's the reason someone can say
(02:07):
Wednesday in Kazakhstan and there still also be a Wednesday
in July in Kazakhstan, and someone in the US can
agree there is a July and there is a Wednesday.
But as we alluded to, the Gregorian calendar, despite being
the de facto world's calendar, is far from the only
calendar still in use. People are going to use the
(02:38):
Gregorian calendar for all kinds of things, but then for
all sorts of other reasons they may use other calendars.
And some of the most famous and well known alternate
calendars we could call them, come from religious beliefs. Maybe
we start with the Hebrew calendar.
Speaker 2 (02:55):
We must. Both the Gregorian and the Hebrew calendar are
used in surprise, surprise, Israel, but secular activities and schedulings
are measured using the Gregorian calendar.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Yeah, so this would be like your school holidays, your
business meetings, a lot of birthday celebrations, Grigorian calendar stuff. Festivals, however,
are determined by the Hebrew calendar, and there's usually going
to be a Jewish holiday every month in that calendar.
This calendar also determines the Torah portion of each Shabbat.
(03:32):
In addition, it's used to plan memorial services when a
loved one passes. The Hebrew calendar is heavily influenced by
the Jewish exile in Babylon in the sixth century BCE.
Speaker 2 (03:45):
And just out of my own curiosity, I just want
to clarify that a Torah portion just refers to the
readings that are selected for those particular chabots.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yes, yeah, absolutely so. According to the Bible, there were
ten months of thirty days each before this exile. There
are only four months in the Bible a Ev which
means spring, Zev, Ethane, and.
Speaker 2 (04:09):
Bull, which are like these are seasons. We still have these,
We just refer to them as seasons rather than months.
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Yeah, we know that calendar days in the Gregorian system
are measured differently than calendar days in the Hebrew system.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Correct. According to the Hebrew calendar sunsets starts the day.
We talked a little bit about this in the previous episode.
So soon as the sun sets on Friday evening, Shabat
begins and as soon as the sunsets Shabat ends.
Speaker 1 (04:38):
And the Jewish calendar has its own system of months,
we don't need to list them all for you because
we will get in over our heads very quickly. We
say that with deep respect. So we do have the
entirety of the breakdown and the list and how it
coordinates with the Gregor calendar, how you'd interpret it through
(05:02):
the Gregorian system. But the thing you need to know
is that these are different calendars. The people who practice
both of these calendars do constantly have to compare and
contrast them. The length of the months, for instance, chez
Vaon and Kislev, they're determined by these pretty sophisticated calculations
(05:25):
that are all meant to make sure Rashashana falls.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
On the right day. Yeah, so they're using those high
holy days as benchmarks to hit. The Jewish calendar is
a lunar calendar, with each month beginning with the new moon.
And the problem, however, with you holding a strictly lunar
calendar is that there are approximately twelve point four lunar
(05:51):
months in each solar year. So a twelve month cycle
or twelve month calendar is just a little bit too short,
and that's when you start really getting those hiccups in
offsets of time.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah, we're in a real Goldilocks parable. So, as he said,
an old twelvemonth calendar a little too short, thirteen month
calendar a little too long. And if we hold to
either of those calendars absolutely, then the year will drift
in relation to the season. So it's the same problem
(06:24):
we saw in the Julian calendar. So for example, if
we're only using a twelvemonth lunar calendar, the Hebrew calendar's
month of Nissan, which is supposed to occur in the spring,
would eventually fall back to the winter, the fall, and
then the summer. And this is a huge deal. It's
(06:45):
something you want to avoid because most holidays and festivals
have traditionally been tied to the seasons as well as
to the dates during which they're celebrated. So if we
go to the fourth century, we meet a guy named
I Lelle the second who said he was going to
fix it.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
Yep, and he created a remedied a Jewish calendar in
which the month of Adar is repeated every third, sixth, eighth, eleventh, fourteenth, seventeenth,
and nineteenth year in a nineteen year cycle. These are
just words that I'm saying to you in order for
(07:23):
Passover to always occur during the month of Nissan, while
the Jewish New Year happens during the month of Tisstree.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, did you hear me? Under my breath? They say,
here we go.
Speaker 2 (07:35):
Because we're here, We're there.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Someone said what about the twelfth and they were hellled
the second and said get him out of here.
Speaker 2 (07:43):
Yeah, this does not sound like a fix to me.
Speaker 1 (07:45):
That sounds absurd, But you nailed it absolutely when you said, hey,
this is because of the purpose of the calendar. All
these fixes are to ensure the correct commemoration celebration of
these holy days. Also, so that's why we have a blend.
(08:07):
And I love a blend.
Speaker 2 (08:13):
Love a blend. No, No one more than Ben loves
a blend. No, what's your what's your favorite fabric blend?
I'm like a rayon cotton kind of guy myself.
Speaker 1 (08:22):
I like that. I like a rayon cotton. Gosh, I
don't know, you're asking someone with synaesthesia. That's gonna take forever.
Speaker 2 (08:29):
Okay, okay, get back to us.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, yeah, okay, let's get back to the calendar. So
there's also a different kind of origin point or starting
point for this calendar. The year number on the Hebrew
calendar represents the number of years since the creation of humanity,
and that is calculated by adding up the ages of
(08:52):
people in the Bible all the way back to the
time of creation.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Stop it. That's who it is that talk about arbitrary.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Well, it depends on how solid the calculations are and
how literally or figuratively we interpret the ages of people
in the Bible, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
So that we're talking about the ages of humans represented
in the Bible, the number of years they're meant to
have been, that just seems so odd to choose that metric.
But I guess you got to choose something. Isn't that
kind of what it amounts to?
Speaker 1 (09:29):
You do have to choose something. Yeah, if you want
an origin point, and you also have to figure out
how much importance and trust you place in this religious text,
you know what I mean? This doesn't necessarily mean the
universe overall has only existed for five seven hundred years
(09:51):
in change. Many people who practice Judaism, including Orthodox Jews,
will readily acknowledge that the first six days of creation
are not necessarily twenty four hour days.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
He was still figuring it out.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
There were still yet, they were still in the ideation brainstorming.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Phase, spitballing.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
Yeah, the argument here does seem pretty logical. It's the
idea that before the sun was created on the fourth
wish Wish Day, twenty four hour day as a concept
would be meaningless.
Speaker 2 (10:25):
That is very true.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Ben right, that's not all right idea, But I the lot.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
Yeah, no, no, God, God was a smart fellow. So
let's move on to the Hindu calendar, the Indian calendar
that operates in three major forms, all in parallel, and
that's apart from the Islamic calendar, which is used by
(10:52):
Indian Muslims. So the Gregorian calendar is the default calendar
again for non religious purposes. However, the d national calendar
is used by the government. It seemed problematic if you're
trying to sink things up with the rest of the
world and several Hindu calendars as well.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
Yeah, exactly so. Again we see this hybrid approach for
people on the ground. If you have a zoom call
for your business, you're scheduling that with a Gregorian calendar.
If you have a zoom call for government purposes, it's
on the Indian National calendar, and which.
Speaker 2 (11:30):
To be clear, isn't the same as the Gregorian calendar,
which sure was a misreading. Okay, yeah, different things.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
And if you are a celebrating religious holiday, you would
use a Hindu calendar. The Hindu calendar, as we understand
it was developed in antiquity by various scholars on the
Indian subcontinent, so multiple people contributed to this over time.
We know the earliest mention of this reckoning of time
(11:58):
can be found in the Veda, which date back as
far as twelve hundred BCE, So it's.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
They've been very important religious text.
Speaker 1 (12:06):
Yeah, yeah, yes, absolutely, they've been workshopping this for quite
a while. And just like other calendars, this system is
based on the motion of the moon.
Speaker 2 (12:16):
Correct, the lunar year is made up of three hundred
and fifty four days. That's compared to three hundred and
sixty five and a quarter days in the Gregorian calendar,
which a kind of every time we say it's them ridiculous,
which is of course based on the solar system, and
that gap increases to a month over a period of
three years. So for that very reason, the Hindu lunar
(12:37):
calendar has an extra month similar to the Jewish calendar
every three years called adik Adik. During that month, very
important religious events and going z ons like weddings are
should be avoided.
Speaker 1 (12:56):
Yeah, I mean, and think about that too practical terms, Right,
how are you going to celebrate your first few wedding
anniversaries when the month you were married in doesn't exist?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Yeah, it's a tricky one.
Speaker 1 (13:07):
It's a tough one, right, More vibe based.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
There we go.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
It also shows us an interesting difference in approach. Whereas
Western clindrical systems tried to minimize discrepancies over time, you
could argue the Hindu lunar calendar accelerated the pattern of
discrepancy by building in a more frequent adjustment period. So
(13:35):
we're not saying one's better than the other. We're just
saying they never say that, right, They're approaching the same
concern through very different ways. And the Hindu calendar system,
by the way, folks, is so much more complex would
be the right word than the Western calendar.
Speaker 2 (13:55):
Yeah, that's true, and this could be considered a feature,
not a bug. It offers a very precise, multi dimensional
approach to the structuring of time, and it combines a
lot of different layers of information, including lunar days, solar days,
lunar months, solar months, and the movement of the Sun
and moon in relation to other celestial bodies, as well
(14:20):
as other spans of time that are defined by astronomy.
Speaker 1 (14:26):
Yeah, they said, we're gonna take everything into account, whereas
the humble Western calendar is built around two primary units
of time, solar days and solar years.
Speaker 2 (14:39):
Bit of a dummy calendar compared, it's.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
A bit of a passage of the heavens for dummies. Yes,
to complicate things a little bit more. If you guys
heard about If you guys are just learning about this
and you're saying, hey, I wish this was more confusing.
There's also not one single Hindu calendar, which is why
you've been hearing us refer to it in the plural.
Sometimes each country and region uses its own variant and
(15:05):
interpretation of this ancient system. The Indian national calendar we
mentioned earlier, was standardized since nineteen fifty seven, also known
as the Sokka calendar, and it represents only one of
the many variations of the Hindu calendar. So again, you
could be a practicing Hindu in this part of the world,
(15:30):
and you could follow the Indian national calendar with its
Hindu influence, and then you could follow the Gregorian calendar
for business, and then you could follow your family or
community's own personal Hindu calendar, which may be a little different.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
I'll take passage of time for dummies, please.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Right right, It's a looney solar calendar.
Speaker 2 (15:52):
Luni and lunar. And speaking of those things, or at
least one the lunar part, why don't we move on
to the Chinese lunar calendar, which you may or may
not have heard of.
Speaker 1 (16:02):
Love it, love it. It is essentially a lunar calendar.
As you said, modern day China, like so many other countries,
heavily relies on the Gregorian calendar. But this traditional lunar
calendar is still our go to authority on when to
celebrate things like the lantern festival, when to fined it auspacial,
(16:24):
this New Year, yeah, Chinese New Year, When to find
an auspicious date for a wedding, a funeral, moving anything.
You can imagine. This calendar has twelve months or twenty
nine or thirty days, and each of them begins on
the first day of a new moon. And then if
you need to correct the calendar drift, you just add
(16:45):
a leap month. When a leap month now, well, they
had a leap month in the earlier in the Indian
calendar too.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
I guess that's true. That's true. We got leap months
rather than days that are Yeah, of course that's exactly right. Then,
but that is the first time I think we've seen
it referred to as a leap month.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I think also just added as needed. They have a
little willy nilly ad hoc. It feels like a great
way to get out of meetings.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
By the way, it sure does. Just add a leap
month in each of these months can be referred to.
A month of the Chinese calendar can be referred to
by an animal name or a number that corresponds to
hours of the day as well gues. It's another super
layered calendar as well as the zodiac cycle, and in
(17:31):
order of occurrence, animals are again, these are pretty popular
in Western culture as well, the rat, the ox, the tiger,
the hare, the snake, the dragon, the horse, the sheep,
the monkey, the foul, the dog, and the pig. And
aren't there like you can be like a metal pig.
There's like different add ons to each of these animal
(17:52):
deities as well.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, and this is something that's really common in a
lot of our favorite restaurants here in the United States
who might get a placement with the Chinese horoscopes on it, right,
and then you'll be able to calculate based on not
just your month of birth, but also the year. So
you know, Western astrology will typically after twelve once upon
(18:15):
a time, thirteen sun signs and those are all based
on a specific period of rising signs right right in
the Chinese calendar. It's not just based on the month,
it's also based on the year you're born. And it's
pretty interesting stuff.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah, And there are different versions of this as well,
even within the region. We see different variations in Vietnam
and Korea as well as the Ryuku Islands.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
We mentioned the zodiac system. One other thing to know
is that in this twelve year zodiac cycle, each year
is assigned an animal. Each animal is associated with a
personality that is supposed to be representative of the year
and those born during that year. So, for instance, as
(19:04):
we're recording here in twenty twenty five, this is the
year of the snake.
Speaker 2 (19:10):
Watch out, watch you right.
Speaker 1 (19:13):
Yeah, the story goes that the Jade Emperor, once upon
a time declared the first animal to cross a river
will be the first in the calendar. The second r arbitrary. Yeah,
the second animal will be second. And then you guys
get the pattern I'm putting down, and they were like, yes, Emperor.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Okay the rest. So yeah, this is a parable Of course,
there was the cat and the rat who asked the
ox for a little little bit of a piggyback ride.
This is like the tortoise and the hair situation where
the squarey ox reached the bank and then the crafty
rat pushed the cat into.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
The river and then the rat jumps off the ox,
and that's how the rat gets to be first because
he's a cheater. And then the tiger comes after the
who's followed by the rabbit. And then the rabbit has
this adventure kind of like Frogger, jumping from rock to
rock and leaps on a log that gets blown to
the shore. Then the dragon shows up, and the dragon, Look,
(20:12):
the interpretation of reptilian creatures is way different in Chinese mythology.
So the snake's not necessarily bad. Neither is the dragon.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, the dragon doesn't give them right like he's got
he's out there dragoning, you know, like controlling the laws
of nature and whatnots because of him that the rabbit's
little log got blown ashore in the first place. So
one could argue the dragon is kind of the Diosex
Makina of the whole affair.
Speaker 1 (20:40):
One hundred percent. And also right, yes, yes, fusta, the
dragon here is a good guy, is doing a little
bit of a rescue mission. This dragon has stopped to
bring rain to a village. The snake takes sixth place.
The horse shows up in seventh place. The rooster sometimes
(21:02):
identified as the fowl as mentioned earlier, finds a raft
and rides the raft with the monkey and the goat
across the river. Yeah yeah, and so the goat is
the eighth month, the monkey the ninth, the rooster of
the tenth.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
Yep, what about the dog. The dog had distracted, didn't
he He was splashing around picking up sticks and rocks
just chasing his tail, not a care in the world.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, it's like watching golden retrievers try to race, you
know what I mean, they're just having.
Speaker 2 (21:30):
Too much fun, they are. Yeah, why not? He did, however,
beat the pig. It was apparently wallowing in his own.
Speaker 1 (21:36):
Shit and stopped for a meal and then had a nap.
Speaker 2 (21:41):
Had a wallow, a meal, and a nap in that order.
Speaker 1 (21:44):
Classic Saturday. But even the pig did better than the cat.
Here's where it takes a dark turn. When the rat
pushed the cat into the river. The cat drowned. Save
for the cat, it's a pretty interesting story.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I don't buy it cats are to go that would happen. Yeah,
I don't know. I guess cats are freaked out by water,
though we.
Speaker 1 (22:04):
Need to know a lot.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
Yeah, but the myth that cats can't swim, Cats are
actually pretty competent swimmers. They hate it every second that
they're not. Also are actually kind of go at swimming
because they get out.
Speaker 2 (22:12):
I mean the amazing animated film Flow for evidence.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
Love it. Flow is so good. Or if you want
to disassociate, just watch some YouTube clips of tigers swimming.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
Man, they're amazing tigers might be my favorite cats. Sorry,
I'm apologizing to my own cats now, Oh no, they know,
they know you. Yeah, we'll see. So uh. We know
then that the Chinese calendar has this deep lore and
as does the Chinese zodiac, they play a heavy role
in modern Chinese life. This calendar also marks the country's
(22:49):
biggest holiday. If you talk to any average Chinese national,
they're going to know their zodiac, the sign under which
they were born. What they might I not know is
that each side also matches a month of the year
and a season of the year like the Western astrological signs.
So it's interesting. But we're already you know, as we're continuing,
(23:11):
we're seeing a pattern. A lot of these alternative calendars
are lunar based. So with that, since we've mentioned the
Hebrew and the Chinese and the Hindu calendars, we've got
to mention the amazing accomplishments of the Islamic calendar because
they don't use leap months, they don't use leap days,
(23:33):
they don't play that game.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Much like the Dragon and the Chinese calendar, the Islamic
calendar don't give it sh They don't care about the
drifts they're fine with it.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
They embrace the drift. The named months slowly retrogress throughout
the solar year, taking thirty two and a half years
to reoccur at the same seasonal time. So there's a
thirty two and a half year I guess.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
What could call it a drift cycle, but it repeats
could on that period, and I fully support you doing so, Ben.
It does still, however, have an important religious benchmark that
it isn't necessarily trying to achieve or trying to get
to work backwards to get to it just uses that
as the start date of the whole damn thing.
Speaker 1 (24:24):
Right, Yes, yeah, the prophet Mohammad's prais Beyantoo journey from
Meta to Medina, the Higeira, that's the start date of
the calendar. And so in all modern Muslim countries as
we know you will see the Islamic calendar often used
for religious or ceremonial or personal spiritual purposes, and the
(24:47):
Gregorian calendar is used for civil purposes. Like when we
can say this, when we were in Cutter not too
long ago, just like everybody else in the region, people
are using the Gregorian calendar. But then when you go
to the mosque or when you enter certain holy sites.
The Islamic calendar is your main guy.
Speaker 2 (25:10):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Makes sense, it makes sense, and it's it's common. Uh.
Speaker 2 (25:16):
I mean, it doesn't make sense, but it makes sense
that they would choose.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
To do it, Okay, I mean that hybrid approach makes
sense in that so many other places do something similar, right, right,
And the Islamic calendar is based on twelve months, but
they're lunar months, and they begin when the thin crescent
moon is actually sighted in the western sky after sunset
(25:40):
a day or so after the new moon. And this
is important for the purposes of the Islamic calendar. This
sighting must be made with the unaided eye.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Gopy.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
That. Yeah, it's something that differentiates it from a lot
of other lunar calendars. Now we know that the twelve
lunar months add up to three fifty four or three
hundred and fifty five days, so the Islamic calendar will
drift about ten days a year, and that means that Ramadan,
the month of fasting, can happen either in summer or winter,
(26:13):
depending on its cycle in the calendar.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
You know, I dig. The flexibility of this setup not
gonna lie The Islamic calendar is also generally only used
for religious holidays like you said, Ben and not civil events.
In most Islamic countries, Gregorian calendars are used to track
these public events. Iranian and Afghan countries, however, use something
called the solar Hezrii calendar, which is an exception to
(26:37):
the whole civil event rule. And this comes from calendar
dot com, which, of course it's a thing that exists.
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yes, yes, which we've referenced in the past. You know,
let's go back to this idea of observing the rise
of the new moon. This is a bit of a
bag of badgers. There's a bit of a pickle because
you are required to cite that passage of the moon
with the unab did i. Each country makes its own observation,
(27:04):
and it gets tricky when you realize that the sun
sets later as you head farther west, and the conditions
might make the moon easier or harder to see in
one particular place instead of another. So the result can
be that two Muslim countries who are on the same
page about literally everything else, maybe in different months of
(27:25):
the calendar, at the same time.
Speaker 2 (27:29):
Yeah, now you lost me. Yeah, we you know, it
is that I like the setup of flexibility, but that
started to get.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
You might win some, but you just have. So we
know that this is something that countries are actively putting
their heads around in the modern day because these kinds
of calendars, this kind of practice made a lot of
sense when the world was less connected. Right when you when.
Speaker 2 (27:56):
It's true, when you got your own kind of bubble, right,
that's all really matter.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
If you're living in Connecticut, you don't need to make
sure you're on the same page with Malaysia in the
seventeen hundreds, because you're never going to go to Malaysia.
Speaker 2 (28:10):
Probably not. Probably are low. Chances are low.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Chances are low unless you're like a whaler America or
a teleporter or teleporter quite common in Connecticut in the
seventeen hunder.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Well, Connecticut Yankee. He kind of was a teleporter traveler.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Anyway, think about it. We're just saying, think about it.
So there are some signals that different countries practicing the
Islamic calendar may start using calculations instead of observations with
the unaided eye, but not everyone's agreed on the best
way to do that, and not everyone's agreed that they
(28:49):
actually want to do that.
Speaker 2 (28:52):
And you'll also probably remember when we were in Cutter
we visited the Museum of Islamic Culture and some of
the most incredible, like illuminated texts I've ever seen. Just
think that the script that is used, of course is gorgeous,
and the calligraphy and all of that. But there were
also a lot of exhibits regarding astronomy.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Oh one hundred percent. And we owe the scientists and
the scholars of that period, especially in the days of
the automance, we owe them a.
Speaker 2 (29:22):
Great deal, for sure, no question about it. We could
go on about the Islamic calendar, and we have, but
for the purposes of time, we're going to move on
to the international fixed calendar. This one is one that
I honestly was not aware of, at least in these terms.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
Yeah. It's kind of like how Esperanto is the universal
language that no one speaks. So we have tried to
fix the calendar. The fixed calendar is an alternative system
for keeping time. And here's our pitch. Every month has
exactly twenty eight days. Okay, no extra log or extra
(30:02):
short months.
Speaker 2 (30:03):
Twenty eight days. That's so all you get.
Speaker 1 (30:05):
The idea here is consistency. Every month also has four
weeks that always begin on a Sunday the first and
end on Saturday, the twenty eighth. Every month's days are
the same number. Every single seventeenth is a Tuesday. The
first Friday of the month is always the sixth.
Speaker 2 (30:22):
Now, okay, I don't mind this so far. Is there
any reason it didn't take off? Because it seems that
it would make scheduling and planning kind of a breeze
from mine. I do have a twist for you, okay.
Speaker 1 (30:33):
Of course, Max Shoes, I will.
Speaker 3 (30:35):
Say, like, I'm pretty sure this is the same one
I wrote about this one in the Leapier episode where
it's like this guy and he's just like very angry
about this thing, and everything I read about him was
him just angry about the Greg Gorning calendar. So I
was like, I'm gonna stick with Greg Goring calendar out
of spite to this guy.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
So yeah, let's keep you going. Here's the twist. Here's
the twist. So far, so good, it says our compatriot nol.
The issue is twenty eight days in each month. That's
more fair to the individual months. It only adds up
to three hundred and thirty six days total in the year.
Speaker 2 (31:06):
Damn.
Speaker 1 (31:06):
So to fix the fixed calendar you have to add
a new thirteenth month between June and July.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
So it's not fixed at all. I mean, I think
in the context of the title, wouldn't fix refer to
like being immovable rather than like repaired?
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Right, right? Right? Well, I think maybe in both senses
is the ambition. But they added that month between June
and July, which throws our whole summer baby thing way off.
You have soul sweet summer child right to represent the summer,
so like the old word for the sun. So now
(31:41):
that we have this extra month, the total goes to
three hundred and sixty four. We only have one day still,
one short leftover. It's always the one day, right, And
so here's what the fixed calendar says. They say, Look
forget it, guys, school's out once a year. We're just whatever.
We'll call it a celebration day. It's after Saturday.
Speaker 2 (32:04):
That's fun.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
It's after Saturday's December twenty eighth, because remember all months
or twenty eight now, but both.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
Swimming will wear party hats. I think pink lemonade, pint
grown tights.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Yes, the rise of cloud bits will have you know,
we'll have bingo, We'll have the file Day. You know, Yeah,
we'll have a field Day. It is literally a celebration
that occurs after the last official day of the year,
but before the beginning official day of the next year, Sunday,
(32:36):
January first, and they call it year Day.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
I think I'm into this still. I think I'm on
board with the International Fixed Calendar.
Speaker 1 (32:44):
Because of your day, because there's a party. Is that, yes, yes,
your day.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
It sounds like a hoot. It sounds like a hoot.
I'm just being contrarian.
Speaker 3 (32:53):
I like my calendar being confusing. I like my calendar
being extra I watch to be challenge.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
Some I'm being positively contrarian. Death I thing.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
I like. It reminds me of the kind of logic
in some of my favorite young adult books, Sideways Stories
from which it was Sideway Stories from Wayside high Wayside
for sure.
Speaker 2 (33:14):
Yeah remember those This stuff was all wacky wayside high.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Right sometimes took a dark turn. That's kind of what's
happening with your day because the day falls on December
twenty ninth, logically, but the calendar's official line is it
falls on no day.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Of the week. It's just saying school not even high.
It was just Wayside School by Lewis Sacker. I remember
that book from the Book Fair. There's like a creepy,
witchy looking teacher with like elf ears on the front.
Speaker 1 (33:45):
Yeah, there's a there's a story in the school that
doesn't exist. This was cool because this was a sleeper
hit right up there with scary stories to tell in the.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
Dark bro book Fair books when a kid were a mad,
like irresponsibly dark.
Speaker 1 (34:03):
I loved it.
Speaker 2 (34:04):
I think it wrecked us in some ways. Scary stories
of telling the dark. Illustrations alone, which were pretty beautifully
captured in that Guillemo del Toro produced. Yeah, adaptation which
wasn't like great, but like I thought, they did a
cool job of translating those freaky drawings into you know,
character design. But yeah, that book messed me up.
Speaker 1 (34:24):
Man, I loved it.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
It probably did affect the way there then her head
fell off.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
Yeah, the worms crawled in, the worms crawled out. Yeah,
Oh I love it.
Speaker 2 (34:34):
They played pein what even his pe knuckle?
Speaker 1 (34:35):
It's a card game also like winks, It's just it's
a card game that I really don't want us to
have to try to get into explain it Is it
like pog It's like pog. Okay, I'm played up the
definition from Britannica. It's like a trick taking ace ten
card game for the forty eight card deck. It's derived
from the card game busique.
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Oh yes, of course, bisique h with Middle Eastern roots.
Speaker 1 (35:02):
It's the wait I thought you would be sarcastic. Oh
you know, phsique? Is it not?
Speaker 2 (35:07):
I think it seems like it would. It's I don't know,
it seems like it would be an ancient card game.
Speaker 1 (35:11):
Oh gosh, I'm derailing us.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
We're derailing, derailing all the way to a close. We
got a episode. I think I think that's time we
got to.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Get back on the rails here. This newly proposed fixed
calendar is meant to overcome a lot of the challenges
we talked about earlier. The advantages are obvious, but it
has not been adopted because of kind of a time
measurement version of path dependence. People are just really committed
(35:44):
to the existing calendars they practice, regardless of how imperfect
those may be.
Speaker 3 (35:49):
Yeah, brand loyalty, you know, I mean, if I can
jump in here, this is this is my honest thick
actually is a greg Woring calendar is not very far off.
I think it's the year's like forty nine one hundred
is when we'll actually have to make an adjustment for
the first time. But the other one is it feels
like it might be one of these things where it's
gonna cost more pain to instituted in.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Right, then, just keep with what we got.
Speaker 1 (36:13):
Yeah, We've seen it in so many other industries and fields.
You know. Honestly, it's the reason Japan still uses fax
machines all the time because we already have the fax machines, right,
so how much will it cost to replace them?
Speaker 2 (36:28):
You know?
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Or maybe Big Calendar is entering the fray. Maybe they
just don't want things to change. Or Noel, I'm going
to say it. Maybe Max is anti year day.
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Hey, Max is anti fun and Max's anti birthday.
Speaker 1 (36:42):
Your day is like one of the best holidays. We
could get Hawaiian shirts that say no day of the week.
Speaker 3 (36:49):
You know.
Speaker 1 (36:50):
Uh, I don't know why your day seems Hawaii thing
to me. At this point, I'm spitballing. We'll figure out
your day. Tell us how you want to celebrate it.
We are going to wrap up by telling you that.
There have, of course been multiple other less successful attempts
at calendars. One of my favorite, of course is the
Jucha calendar of the Democratic People's Republic of Korea DPRK.
(37:14):
Street named North Korea and got their own calendar.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Hell yeah, go weird different calendar, and weird is the
wrong word. These are all very much tied to culture
and tradition and myth making and all of that. It's
a complex cosmic gumbo that yields all these fascinating different calendars.
Speaker 1 (37:34):
Yeah, we used to say that on set. It's kind
of a cosmic gumbo. We did. We know that there
are some calendars that were very much motivated by political changes.
The French Republican calendar the Soviet calendar both purposely created
to move society away from the influence of monarchs and religion,
(37:56):
and the Soviet calendar to expressly make where output levels
were high. That's that's how that's how they got to
get a good yield. You got to get a good yield.
There are so many other things we could talk about.
I'd love maybe to do a history in the future
about the various self created calendars occult leaders.
Speaker 2 (38:19):
Why not they don't take great. Yeah, but did Apple
White have a calendar?
Speaker 1 (38:24):
He had a calendar with an end date.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
The Heaven's Gate guy, yeah, the bald guy in the sky. Yeah. No, No,
this is interesting, Ben, It's not occurred to me. I
would love to go into this sometime, maybe on stuff
they don't want you to know.
Speaker 4 (38:34):
Yeah, it's good, we'll see. We'll check what day it is.
And as we're gearing up to celebrate our first year
day together, I just love the name.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, I'm all for it. Sign me up for the
International Fixed Calendar.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
And please site us up as some of your biggest fans,
ridiculous historians. Thank you so much for tuning in and
supporting the show. Big shout out to our super producer,
mister Max Williams. Big shout out to Jeff Factor, G Bartlett,
our research associate, and of course, our guy who created
his own calendar, Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister.
Speaker 2 (39:11):
Every day is Jday Long, May he rain. We'll see
you next time, folks. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows,
Ridiculous History News
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