September 2, 2025 • 41 mins
Do you have a number you love, or a number you hate? As Ben, Noel and Max discover in today's episode, people have always assigned symbolic meaning to the everpresent existence of math -- and created some frankly ridiculous associations along the way.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own
lucky number. Our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
M Max Lucky Number, Sleven Williams.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, yeah, you're no Brown. I am Ben Dollan in
these parts. Yeah, and our pal Max is very big
into fantasy football, so much so that Max, you told
Noel and yours truly that your group chat text messages
(01:06):
would be blowing up.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, I mean yeah, No. I always tell people am like, hey,
if you have something important to send me during the
football season, do not text that to me, which is
the inverse what most people say. But it's like because
if you said it to me, text it just gets
into the giant pile of fantasy football stuff. By the way,
my favorite number forty one.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And that's where we're going with this. This is an
episode all about numbers. So Noel Max has a favorite
lucky number forty one or just a favorite number for
his own personal mythology. Do you find yourself possessing a
personal favorite lucky or unlucky number?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Yeah, I do, and it's nonsense. I don't remember when
I was a young lad writing bad poetry that was
very esoteric and you know, pretentious.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
I've I got focused on this number, eight hundred and
forty five because I would do these sort of like
cut up experiments where I would just like take words
from random pages that I would find friends' houses. And
I think there was like a crossword or something where
someone had written the number and the margins, and of course,
you know, with what's the word baiter Mainhoff situation. I
just see the number everywhere, and it's in all my passwords,
(02:21):
and I'm kidding, it's not. It's in a handful of
my usernames though, but yeah, it's irrelevant. It's just my
mind glommed onto that number for some reason.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And there's nothing wrong with that now, of course, fellow
ridiculous historians, I am not going to reveal my own
personal mythology of lucky or unlucky numbers. But for a
lot of folks, just like you were saying, Noel, this
can be a whimsical icebreaker type of question. But for
other people, as we're gonna find, this is very serious,
(02:53):
deadly serious. Habitual lottery players often have lucky numbers, as
do other gamblers, even professional athletes.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Right, how you choose.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Your jersey number, business tycoons, how you close the deal?
This concept goes across every imaginable demographic. Interesting fun fact
speaking to personal preference. Stephen King, the lionized author of
American literature, he is obsessed with the number nineteen, and
(03:25):
he will talk about it at length.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What's the hotel room from the Shining.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh, oh, from the Shining, not from the in the
first story?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, well, I think in the book it's three seventeen,
and then in the Kubrick film he changes the number.
But then no, maybe it's two seventeen. Anyway, it's something
like that. It's different in the book in the number.
But then in the new Zach Kreeger horror film that's
quite good weapons he uses that number that he claims
and interviews he just must have internalized it.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
It wasn't meant to be. But again, it's funny how
we glom onto these kind of numbers. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You know, some special numbers are again a matter of
personal preference. Others can be cultural events, you know, like
part of Asia's deep belief in the good vibes of
the number eight, and we see this similar pattern with
unlucky numbers. Assigning good or bad fortune to numbers. It's
(04:34):
a time honored human hobby and it can seem like
a relic of superstition from ages gone, but there's still
a lot of legacy to this. There's this quasi spiritual
belief that some numbers are better or worse than others.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
For sure.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
I mean, I know we're going to get into a
lot of this, but I'm always reminded of the very
cool early Darren Aaronofski movie Pie that talks about this
kind of cabal of Hasidic Jewish mystics that practice the
numerology of Kabbala, where in certain numbers are assigned to
(05:14):
certain letters in the Hebrew alphabet used to kind of
uncover these hidden secrets and connections with the universe. And
in the film it takes a real dark turn, but
it's real cool.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, especially with the high dollar corporate interests that play
another antagonistic role in that amazing film. We are fun
at parties. Let's start exploring lucky and unlucky numbers by
doing what we'll call a hilariously brief history of numbers one, two,
(05:48):
three to the four?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
How do we get there? How do we like?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
How do we do numbers?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Well, they have to excuse me because Snoop Doggy Dog
and Doctor Dre are at the door. I'll be right back. No,
I'm just kidding. Yeah, I don't know, man, it's interesting.
I thought when you said you were going to do
a history of numbers, I thought you were just going
to name all the numbers and that would have made
for very interesting content. And I was here for it.
And thanks Ben for this excellent research brief. I know
this is a pet subject for you, and I think
(06:16):
all of the ridiculous historians out there are going to
enjoy it too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So let's talk a little bit about numbers.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
So, despite the fact that humans are pretty bad at
agreeing with one another on most things, most of modern
civilization has agreed on not only the concept of numbers,
but also a universal ish way of communicating them in
written form. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, Like, wherever you go nowadays, with a few exceptions,
the people you run into, even if you don't speak
the same language, they are going to use the same
number system zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
zero again repeated to infinity. No, that's kind of a
(07:03):
success story, is it not.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I think it is.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
I mean, we certainly can't agree on an alphabet, we
certainly can't agree on a language. And I've always wondered that,
you know, why is it the numbers are so universal?
I guess because there exist in the natural world observable,
kind of quantifiable things that these numbers represent. So it
sort of makes sense that, you know, we would need
(07:28):
to kind of have a standard for this, right, I mean,
have you ever maybe you could say it or how
you see it? Ben, What do you think that reason
is for the universality of a number system?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
It's crazy, man. I think you're on I think you're
on the money with the idea of universal observance. Right,
people have different words for the concept of gravity, but
everyone acknowledges gravity exists.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
There's no.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Uncontacted commune you could go to that doesn't understand things
fall down when you throw them into the sky. But
the weird thing is, back in the day, all these
disparate human communities, language groups like you described, empires, civilizations,
they had their own written version of numbers. What you're
(08:21):
using today folks is called the Arabic neural system, and
it's a misnomer because it's from an ancient Indian numerical
system and it spread via trade. It was the easiest
way to talk math, to talk finance, to talk money,
and then the Arabic Boffins adapted this and it propagated
(08:47):
throughout the Islamic world for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
And we can't not mention the Persian mathematician our Quared
Semi he is, to your point, Ben, one of the
aforementioned Boffin's slash nerds who helped popularize this number writing
system way back in the ninth century. So if we
fast forward in time one hundred years or so, we've
(09:14):
got Europeans encountering the Arabic numeral system, and because of
this trade that's around the tenth century. Up until that time, however,
they all been using really really bonkers inefficient, yet you know,
well intentioned system of Roman numerals, which as you know, Ben,
it still mystifies me to this day, and it is
(09:34):
you know, still used obviously in the naming of kings
and things like that. But also you'll see Roman numerals
as a tradition at the bottom of motion pictures the credits,
you'll see like a really long Roman numeral that represents
a year. And when you see that written now you
kind of understand why it's not the best system because
real hard to parse out what exactly it's saying. I
(09:57):
can't hardly do it with just like four characters own
like twenty yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
By the way, let's throw to Max real quick. Here,
Hey Max, what super Bowl is it?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
They go? Another one that uses the romans. Yeah, it
is a number between one and sixty.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Okay, great, How would you how would you, Parson? How
would you spell it out with Roman numerals?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
It might be what's l L L was a couple
of years ago, which is fifty, So it's like.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
L L l i X l i X super Bowl
licks sounds dirty?
Speaker 4 (10:34):
No, sorry, yeah, yeah, February the most recent one, February
of twenty five was.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
So we're going to be at l LX then next
because that's sixty then, right, LX is fifty nine oh
ten years away from having a really good super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So Roman numerals, right, and thank you, that's a Max
with the facts. If we can add a null tag
on it, that.
Speaker 5 (10:59):
Seek in the Fonda and he's fallen log it's just for.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You right now for sure.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
But like, for example, if you, let's see, if you,
if you combine different Roman numerals with standard Roman numerals,
you can form these longer numbers, and like, here's an
example of an obnoxious one, like M D C C
C C l x x x x v iii, which
apparently means nine ninety nine thousand.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Now what if you could just write that an easier way.
Fast forward another several centuries. A guy named Fibdacci who
is low key famous for a couple other things, including
a few sequences uh one in particular, he publishes something
called liber Abakshi in the twelve hundreds, and, just like
(11:52):
al Karzimi before him, this popularizes the Arabic numeral system
in the niscent Western world. Fast forward one more time.
It's a modern day. It's the twenty first century. Everybody
except for the Super Bowl and studio moguls, are using
the Arabic numeral system. Linguistic systems languages across the world
(12:16):
are still as you said, Noel, quite divided one versus
um versus you know, a zhai eines, you know, et cetera.
They all will generally and consistently use this single brilliant
system of numeric notation to agree on basic math.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
For sure.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
And that's not even to mention like the idea of
binary code and the ones and zeros that make up
digital you know, delivery of information. That's a whole other concepts,
and I'd love to get more into that. I think
we've done some stuff around. We definitely did one about
like the turning you know, code breaking machines and all
of that. But it would be fun to talk a
little bit about the history of coding, because it is becoming, gosh,
(13:02):
the thing that they've told you to go to school
for and that is now seemingly being made part of
history being replaced by AI. Not to put too fine
a point on it, but I think that's maybe worth
an episode. So math alone can't define, however, that human experience.
To our previous point, though these observable phenomena that can
(13:24):
ultimately be drilled down into mathematically, even math cannot fully
explain everything, right, So as a result, depending on where
you go and how you experience the world, some numbers
are defined in terms beyond their actual facts. To quote
Lauren quantitative value. So some numbers good, other numbers bad.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And that's why today, fellow ridiculous historians, we want to
explore some of those numbers called unlucky. We're gonna take
two examples, just to be clear, your mileage may vary.
We're gonna learn some origin stories, some fun superstitions, and
legacy of culture, and then we're also going to go
into some downright ridiculous examples of real life dangerous consequences
(14:13):
based on those beliefs. For now, we're not gonna focus
on thirteen examples. We'll focus on two examples, but we
will start with the number thirteen, because come on, folks,
we're a US based Western podcast, and the most unpopular
(14:34):
number in all of Western discourse is the number thirteen.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Yeah, it always reminds me of the excellent Pixies song
number thirteen. Baby, let's see standing in her chinos, sure
pulled off clean, got a tattooed breast, say number thirteen.
He doesn't use that word, he uses a different word.
But it is a song about I don't know who
knows what the Pixies songs are about, but it definitely
(15:07):
has a certain doom saying quality to it, which is
where we're going with this, The number thirteen does not
bode well when it pops up Theoretically. Earlier research indicse
that up to teen percent of the US has a
fear of that very number, even in the modern day,
and that cultural fear is so deeply built into society.
(15:29):
There's even a specific word for this phobia. Ben you
found this one. I'm having a hard time even wrapping
my eyeballs around it. Can you give us a reading phobia?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Trisca de caaphobia? Wow, fear of the number thirteen?
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Wait a minute, wasn't there a movie with Jim Carrey
about the number thirteen?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Or was it Jim Carrey Hotel One?
Speaker 4 (15:52):
No, it's Jim Carrey Scary number movie, Number movie.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
It is called the number twenty three, not the number.
They did a little spin on it. Interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Apparently he sees it everywhere and it causes him to
have some psychological break and there's apparently a twist ending.
And it is based on something called the twenty three enigma,
which is a real world concept where people perceive connections
to the number twenty three in real life.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
But that also happens pretty often to individual humans. The
idea of seeing connections no question.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
We're connection making machines.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
We like to see it better, and don't we Max,
you wanted to jump in here? You got a thirteen thing?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
No, I just want to piggyback on something Noel said
about the Pixies recently. When I was coming back from Portland,
I was on vacation out there, some Pixies came on.
I was listening to it, and you know, it's good
when I hear the Pixies. But I'm like, I was like,
man when I started listening to Pixies in high school.
I'm being like, man, I can't wait tell them an adult.
And I understand what these lyrics mean, mean nothing, they
made nothing, nobody.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
It's a vibe based lyric, Yeah, Frank, vibe based lyric.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Credible lime logic of the Stone Temple pilots for sure,
or even like Radiohead.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And that's one thing I really dig about, certain lyrics
that are less to be interpreted or have an exact
outright meaning. But it's more what you bring to it,
which is exactly what we do as patterns seeking humans
with them.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Humans are the first thing to look at the heavens
and the mechanisms of reality and say how does this
apply to me? How could I make this about?
Speaker 4 (17:33):
When you put it like that, we kind of sound
like a holes. But I guess you know, fairpoint, fairpoint.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, accurate too, no kidding, friends and neighbors. People now
in twenty twenty five in the Western world will genuinely
avoid occasions of auspice. We could call them avoiding marriages, reunions,
significant business handshakes, travel on days this, I'll say it.
(18:00):
Beat me, Max bullshit calendar calls the thirteenth, especially Friday
the thirteenth.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Buddy, I'm such a dang dong.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I did not even think about Friday the thirteenth in
this very clear discussion of unlucky numbers and the number thirteenth.
Of course, it's not like it's the halloweenius non Halloween,
you know, day of the year.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You're okay, careu. It happens all the time. There's even
a whole horror movie franchise literally called Friday the thirteenth.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Well, yeah, that's certainly the most popular pop cultural use
of that. And I don't know, if I don't know,
do you know people that freak out about Friday the
thirteenth or talk about it in hushed tones?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Not a series of films, but the day. I know
a few, I know a few.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Most people I know talk about the franchise talk about
it in a very excited way because they're horror film
fanatics and they love.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Pace of warhies, Chasing's great. Yeah, don't what the camper? Yeah,
they love it.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
When my favorite Jason kill in an early movie, it
might be the first one, is when he just takes
a camper who's in a sleeping bag and like cinches
it up at the top and just slams them into
a tree repeatedly. I thought that was very clever. But
if I'm not mistaken, Friday the thirteenth maybe correct us
out there, horror bofens. But does it actually is? Is
(19:22):
that a meaningful event in the film or is it
just kind of referring to just the concept of unluckiness
and a bad day?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I can't recall. I actually can't recall.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I think regardless of how the franchise begins, they lose
touch over the course of the franchise. With Friday the Thirteenth.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
It says here on the Internet that the date does
not consistently to your point bend feature in the series.
The first film and only a few subsequent films actually
take place on that specific date, so the movie series
has a confusing timeline and doesn't always adhere to the
date mentioned in the title.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Fair enough, speaking of confusing, shout out to Crystal Lake.
While all the hubbub bubbs over Friday the thirteenth, or
thirteen in general, let's travel all the way back to
the first pitch of why this number became bad. It
goes to the Code of Hamaabi, and the idea is
and the speculation goes that Hama Rabbi's Code the first
(20:25):
written or the first documented measure of law that humans know.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Now.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
It has a list of things right that are going
to be crimes and legally punishable, and it purposely omits
a thirteenth law from its legal rules. So this might
sound like some ancient precedent and super easy to walk
around and say, oh, these folks of old were also
(20:53):
really scared of the number thirteen, But it turns out
the reality of this is kind of ridiculous and classic
human It was probably a typo based on the earliest translations.
They accidentally skipped a line of text.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
I love like when doomsday prophecies are based on like
typos or just that that historical game of telephone that
we always talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
It just it brightens my day.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Shout out to twenty twelve. Yeah, one hundred percent. And
I'm certain that that that this is something that you
found as well. But I'd love to explore it more.
The idea of I don't see this always. Do you
see buildings not having a thirteenth floor all the time anymore?
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Ooh, I'm excited that we're going to get to that. Yes, yeah, yeah,
because it still continues. The thing about the surviving Code
of Hamarabi, to make it even more ridiculous, is that
that translation is not numbered. There's a list of crimes
and you know, legal rulings, but they are they're like
(22:00):
the things in an email with a dot instead of
a one and a two, so there's no number thirteen
to miss. It means that none of these folks were
frightened by some mystical mathematical power. Instead, they were in
a hurry. Stuff fell through the cracks. And maybe another
(22:22):
theory is that because of the base ten Arabic numeral system.
Maybe it's because of that early Mesopotamian societies were super
dupes into what we would call base twelve math. That's
part of why we measure days in twenty four hour cycles, right,
(22:43):
twelve times two, or why the modern international calendar, which
is again malarkey, has twelve months. The idea there is.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
That thirteen is just too spoopy.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's omination, it's unnatural.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Now that, if I'm not mistaken, when we did calendar stuff,
it was definitely not for that reason, right, It was
more of like it. They needed the math to add up,
so twelve made the most sense. You're right, and I've
never claimed to fully wrap my head around any of that.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Either. I am not good at math. That's a weed.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Mutually, are both buffoonishly confused when Thanksgiving or Easter occur
in the West. I think both of us just assume
someone will tell us these rotating holidays, and that is
unfortunately true ridiculous historians. Then we have the other stories
(23:37):
about thirteen. They're very spiritually based. Judas is Carriaut famous
in certain religious circles. He's the thirteenth guest at the
Last Supper. He betrayed the guy who repeatedly helped him
out and saved his life, Jesus Christ, Jesus H.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Christ. If you like, and there's no age, And Harold,
where does that even come from?
Speaker 4 (24:01):
He was sorry, really no think anyway, maybe that's something
worth exploring to absurdly Hank then with the dubious facts.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And there's an earlier example of this, Loki from Nordic lore,
who was again the thirteenth guide and important party and
kind of a pill in those stories. This carries on
in multiple forms today. Uh, this is where we're getting
to what you alluded to so beautifully earlier, Noel. It
is even now in twenty twenty five not uncommon to
(25:01):
find an elevator with no thirteen floor button on it,
especially in airports, hospitals, institutions of higher learning, which is
funny to me. It just skips straight from twelve to fourteen.
Have you run into any of this, you guys.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I do always try to look for it, and what
I was mentioning earlier, the reason.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I brought it up, I feel like I don't see it.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
As much anymore in terms of there not being a thirteen,
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I can't really say for certain.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
I definitely have witnessed such things, but in my mind
I always seem to try to look for it, and
be like, we wait, no, there's a thirteen.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Why is there a thirteen?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So yeah, I put you off, like, are you going
to stay on that floor the hotel?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Da da da da? Duh? It's so weird, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
It's so weird, right because even if, like most people
in a secular world, even if you don't actively practice superstition,
we all have a thing where we kind of err
on the side of caution. Right, if it is convenient
for me to not put myself in a situation that
superstition tells me is disadvantageous, then I'll avoid that situation.
(26:18):
I will stay on floor fifteen just to be safe.
This is the wildest part of the unlucky number. Reckoning
thirteen as a bad number is primarily overwhelmingly a Western phobia.
If you went back to ancient Egypt, certain dynasties saw
the number thirteen as kind of lucky. So the fear
(26:42):
of this number is not a cross cultural phenomenon. It
is culturally dependent. No one is absolutely sure how it
came about, but everybody heard it to your point about
the game of telephone and repeated it to each other.
So if you are not from Western in society and
you're looking in on the benighted Europeans, Americans, Canadians, a
(27:07):
little bit of Mexico as well, then you will probably
think it somewhere between cute and weird that people care
so much about what floor of the hotel they're sleeping on.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, and if we're doing another musical ref if you
don't mind, there is a really cool, influential psych rock
band from Austin, Texas called The Thirteenth Floor Elevators with
Rocky Erickson, a famous oddball front person who I believe
passed away and he had some mental health issues, but
a very very talented dude.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I highly recommend checking out their work. But it's not
a clever name.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
It's this the thirteenth Floor Elevators, the elevators that only
go to the scary floor.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Love it, Love it. And that's an excellent example. We
can also say, for example, thirteen is kind of a larchy,
as in, there is no real world consequence for ending
up with thirteen on your license plate or thirteen guests
at your dinner party. But speaking of for example, let's
(28:15):
get to one of the most infamous unlucky numbers. Half
a world away. Way more people are frightened of the
number four.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Yeah, I had no idea about this one, Ben, This
is fascinating. It is considered super unlucky throughout large parts
of Asia, very similar if not more so in terms
of the paranoia surrounding it to the way the West
looks at number thirteen. So even today you will find
elevators that won't list the fourth floor going from three
(28:53):
directly to five, or having like a subheading on three,
so like the floor between three and would be three.
A I can't wait three and a half reminds me
of the tiny floor from being John Malcolmvich.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Oh, perfect reference. Yeah, I can't wait till we make
it over to that part of the world together for
Ridiculous History Live. You're absolutely correct. No, throughout China to one,
the Korean Peninsula and Japan, the number four is treated
with even more suspicion than we in the West treat
the number thirteen. Again, it's so common that there is
(29:31):
an entire word for the fear of the number four
in English. It's pretty predictable. It's tetraphobia, and that is
unfortunately not related to tetris phobia, which would have big fun.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
So cool that these very niche. Yeah, maybe it's not
niche if enough people believe it. Fears have their own phobias,
just like in the West, elevators and hospitals and airports
and apartment buildings, office buildings are going to skip the
fourth floor in Beijing, for example, license plates avoid using
that number. Though I do wonder, like, how is this
(30:06):
implemented systematically? Like a lot of those numbers are sort
of randomly generated, or they're generated based on pre existing sequences,
like what if your number comes up as they say,
you know, is someone gonna like complain? Are they gonna say, uh,
I don't want that one?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah? What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
License plate issuing authority? Are you telling me to die?
Are you final destinationing me? I'm gonna make it a
verb anyway over over in Singapore, dude, the legendary Alpha
Romeo had the Model one four and they had to
change the name to sell it to these high rolling,
(30:45):
very fancy tycoons.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
It reminds me of the way American movies often have
to be re edited for Asian markets to remove mentions
of overtly supernatural stuff. And I mean, maybe I'm overstate
over simplifying that, but I do recall that a Ghostbusters
movie was very very heavily edited, and that mentions of
ghosts in general, and you know, spiritual entities are kind
(31:09):
of frowned upon over there because of very similar cultural sensitivities.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
M one hundred percent. Yeah, And do check out our
earlier gosh, what was it stuff they don't want you
to know episodes about American studios sort of tailoring their
products to Chinese markets, who are, by the way, folks,
the biggest theatrical market out there.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Oftentimes movies will make their budget or become profitable even
if they're a flop here at home, because they do
well abroad.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Shout out to specific specific grim. I think it's a
great movie.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
I didn't see any of the sequels, and I did
also want to point out a recent ish episode we
did on Ridiculous History about some international, uh let's say,
events negative that were caused by miss prints, you know,
in products and various American kind of things that you know,
created quite a kerfuffle abroad because of you know, mistranslations.
(32:09):
It's not exactly the same, but I think it's a
good spiritual kind of partner to this episode.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Right on you know, it may astound a lot of
us listening to realize that multiple international brands will purposefully
and preemptively retouch their products entirely to avoid using the
number four in Asian markets. So we have to ask,
(32:36):
why is this tetraphobia so much stronger than triskdea of
phobia which I am stumbling through the fear of the
number thirteen. The true answer here, folks, which we can
give you the straight poop, is this The number four
as a fearful number is rooted in language. It goes
(32:57):
way way back. It's often misreport like. Think about it
this way. The number thirteen in English is a relatively
singular word. You can slant rhyme it with phrases like
the third teen or thirstteen, but the actual word thirteen
(33:17):
is just what it means. It means three more units
past ten. That's not the case here. In multiple languages
across East Asia, the word for four sounds distressingly similar
to the word for death. Thank you for the sound You're.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
There next, Oh yes, oh no, death, Sweet embrace.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Picture being a.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Kid over in the mainland Middle Kingdom and you're learning
to count you got eh song.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Death, Oh no, it's so metal, it's sure uh so,
well that doesn't sound quite a scary but.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Well, without going into the weeds, Chinese, as we know,
is a tone language, or it's a collection of tonal languages.
Mandarin has four tones, Cantonese has too many for us
to learn. And it means that the pronounced tone of
a vocalization indicates the concept the content you are communicating.
If if we could, this might just be fun for us.
(34:20):
Can we play a weird poem that shows us how
bizarre this total language can become?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Only if we can all listen to it together. Ben,
that sounds lovely so.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
In English, this is the lion eating poet in the
Stone Den, or you could say the story of mister
she eating lions. Every word in here is a different
total pronunciation of shit.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
The title sessh ish, the contentesh suh.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
You see what I'm saying makes your head spin in
the best way I hear it. But boy, oh boy,
it's about the inflection, right, It's about the tonality of
the upward or downward, and then sometimes the length of
the sound. It seems like some are shorter, some are
a little longer, some have it's interesting tones yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah, no, I love it. It's really cool. Ben.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Well, we're not the ones who came up with it, Noel,
but it gives us a sense as non native speakers
about the concept. And then we say, what about the
languages in nearby regions that do not rely on tones?
Speaker 2 (35:47):
In Japan and.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Korea, the words for for and for death are likewise similar.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Correct In Japanese, for or she and death she share
the same pronunciation, okay, that makes sense. In Korean, however,
both are pronounced saw. So people in Japan particularly do
not like the number forty nine double whammy, as it
sounds sort of like saying pain until death.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Happy birthday, everybody, exactly. Not cool, man.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
The kids are really into some numerology stuff these days.
There's a new brain rot kind of term that's like
sixty seven.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I want to say six seven seven. Hold on, let's
see slang.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Sixty seven means to abruptly, reject, dismiss, or leave someone
or something, often used to tell somebody to go away.
So it seems like it's part of a meme and
kids are saying that now. But then I remember eighty six,
which meant in restaurant parlance that something was out that
you were out of something.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
I'm very curious about where some of these numbers come from.
Maybe it's like from like walkie talkie or something like that.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
But I digress.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Now, who are we to eighty six superstition? It does
make me wonder about the old stories of unfortunately named
automobiles in different linguistic markets. It also makes me wonder
about how films like The Fantastic Four are going to
play in Asia, again, with China being the largest theatrical market.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Well oftentimes, though, like those types of movies, numbers aside
get a much more culturally under recognizable name. It'll be
like the Magic Family, the Magic Family, Yes, thank you, Ben,
thank you one hundred percent, the Stretchy Boy and the
Fireman you know.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah yeah, perfect, I mean and joking aside, there's a
great deal of xenophobia on either shore the proverbial pond here,
so we have to keep in mind that the vast
majority of modern humans are not actively terrify of numbers
that just exist without opinions or powers of their own.
(38:05):
A ton of Eastern and Western literature over the centuries
has practiced othering, and it's portraying people that the authors
have never met as slaves to some sort of superstition.
But look, also, if all things equal, right, if you
are in the West and you have the opportunity to
(38:29):
choose between floor twelve and floor fifteen, you might not
go for thirteen if you don't have to try extra
you know.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, that's true. Then maybe maybe well maybe you get
a deal on thirteen.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Maybe you get a deal on thirteen. We're revealing a
lot about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
In that case.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, we are down to sleep on floor thirteen as
well as floor four. Maybe we do an episode on
lucky numbers in the future. What do you think, what.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
A great idea. Yeah, the Yen and the Young. Yeah,
what I know, eight.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Is seen as a fortuitous number in some parts of
the world.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I mean the obvious one is lucky number seven, I think, yeah, yeah,
I don't know. Let's see three Trinity three, Yeah, the
Holy Trinity wouilch.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
I probably would would be a reasoning behind that being
a lucky number. But I am also fascinated about we
briefly mentioned it up top, but like, what makes numbers
have power?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
In that Kabbala tradition of Jewish mysticism. I need to
read that.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
I need Yeah, I need to revisit PI to maybe
answer some of those questions or just do a little digging.
But man, Ben, what a great research doc you put
together on this one. It's such a cool topic and
I had a lot of fun talking about.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It with you.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Well, we're going to spin this out so we don't
end on forty four. Big big thanks to our super producer,
mister Max Williams. Big thanks to our Brotherred Arms Alex Williams,
who composed this slap and bop. Have you checked in
with them? Miss him a little?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I miss him quite a lot. I haven't talked to
him in a.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Hot minute, but I do owe him a poke to
use the antiquated Facebook parlance.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, and huge thanks to Rachel Big Spinach Lance will.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Be joining us soon if if she has anything to
do with it, because we're really bad at email, but
we really are excited to have her talk about some
underwater explosiony type stuff. Big thanks to Jonathan Strickland, the
Quiztor a j Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Medium thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiztor. Big thanks
to Eve's Jeffcoat Christopher hasiotis here in spirit, The Rude Dudes,
that Ridiculous Crime Big thanks to Doctor Venkman, Apollo and
the Cat with a Thousand Names. Also, don't think I
forgot Max Big thanks to Sylvia mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
See you next time, folks.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our own
lucky number. Our super producer, mister Max Williams.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
M Max Lucky Number, Sleven Williams.
Speaker 1 (00:44):
Yeah, yeah, you're no Brown. I am Ben Dollan in
these parts. Yeah, and our pal Max is very big
into fantasy football, so much so that Max, you told
Noel and yours truly that your group chat text messages
(01:06):
would be blowing up.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Yeah, I mean yeah, No. I always tell people am like, hey,
if you have something important to send me during the
football season, do not text that to me, which is
the inverse what most people say. But it's like because
if you said it to me, text it just gets
into the giant pile of fantasy football stuff. By the way,
my favorite number forty one.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
And that's where we're going with this. This is an
episode all about numbers. So Noel Max has a favorite
lucky number forty one or just a favorite number for
his own personal mythology. Do you find yourself possessing a
personal favorite lucky or unlucky number?
Speaker 4 (01:45):
Yeah, I do, and it's nonsense. I don't remember when
I was a young lad writing bad poetry that was
very esoteric and you know, pretentious.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
I've I got focused on this number, eight hundred and
forty five because I would do these sort of like
cut up experiments where I would just like take words
from random pages that I would find friends' houses. And
I think there was like a crossword or something where
someone had written the number and the margins, and of course,
you know, with what's the word baiter Mainhoff situation. I
just see the number everywhere, and it's in all my passwords,
(02:21):
and I'm kidding, it's not. It's in a handful of
my usernames though, but yeah, it's irrelevant. It's just my
mind glommed onto that number for some reason.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
And there's nothing wrong with that now, of course, fellow
ridiculous historians, I am not going to reveal my own
personal mythology of lucky or unlucky numbers. But for a
lot of folks, just like you were saying, Noel, this
can be a whimsical icebreaker type of question. But for
other people, as we're gonna find, this is very serious,
(02:53):
deadly serious. Habitual lottery players often have lucky numbers, as
do other gamblers, even professional athletes.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Right, how you choose.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Your jersey number, business tycoons, how you close the deal?
This concept goes across every imaginable demographic. Interesting fun fact
speaking to personal preference. Stephen King, the lionized author of
American literature, he is obsessed with the number nineteen, and
(03:25):
he will talk about it at length.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
What's the hotel room from the Shining.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
Oh, oh, from the Shining, not from the in the
first story?
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Yeah, well, I think in the book it's three seventeen,
and then in the Kubrick film he changes the number.
But then no, maybe it's two seventeen. Anyway, it's something
like that. It's different in the book in the number.
But then in the new Zach Kreeger horror film that's
quite good weapons he uses that number that he claims
and interviews he just must have internalized it.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
It wasn't meant to be. But again, it's funny how
we glom onto these kind of numbers. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
You know, some special numbers are again a matter of
personal preference. Others can be cultural events, you know, like
part of Asia's deep belief in the good vibes of
the number eight, and we see this similar pattern with
unlucky numbers. Assigning good or bad fortune to numbers. It's
(04:34):
a time honored human hobby and it can seem like
a relic of superstition from ages gone, but there's still
a lot of legacy to this. There's this quasi spiritual
belief that some numbers are better or worse than others.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
For sure.
Speaker 4 (04:53):
I mean, I know we're going to get into a
lot of this, but I'm always reminded of the very
cool early Darren Aaronofski movie Pie that talks about this
kind of cabal of Hasidic Jewish mystics that practice the
numerology of Kabbala, where in certain numbers are assigned to
(05:14):
certain letters in the Hebrew alphabet used to kind of
uncover these hidden secrets and connections with the universe. And
in the film it takes a real dark turn, but
it's real cool.
Speaker 1 (05:26):
Yeah, especially with the high dollar corporate interests that play
another antagonistic role in that amazing film. We are fun
at parties. Let's start exploring lucky and unlucky numbers by
doing what we'll call a hilariously brief history of numbers one, two,
(05:48):
three to the four?
Speaker 2 (05:50):
How do we get there? How do we like?
Speaker 1 (05:52):
How do we do numbers?
Speaker 4 (05:54):
Well, they have to excuse me because Snoop Doggy Dog
and Doctor Dre are at the door. I'll be right back. No,
I'm just kidding. Yeah, I don't know, man, it's interesting.
I thought when you said you were going to do
a history of numbers, I thought you were just going
to name all the numbers and that would have made
for very interesting content. And I was here for it.
And thanks Ben for this excellent research brief. I know
this is a pet subject for you, and I think
(06:16):
all of the ridiculous historians out there are going to
enjoy it too.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
So let's talk a little bit about numbers.
Speaker 4 (06:20):
So, despite the fact that humans are pretty bad at
agreeing with one another on most things, most of modern
civilization has agreed on not only the concept of numbers,
but also a universal ish way of communicating them in
written form. Right.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Yeah, Like, wherever you go nowadays, with a few exceptions,
the people you run into, even if you don't speak
the same language, they are going to use the same
number system zero, one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine,
zero again repeated to infinity. No, that's kind of a
(07:03):
success story, is it not.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I think it is.
Speaker 4 (07:05):
I mean, we certainly can't agree on an alphabet, we
certainly can't agree on a language. And I've always wondered that,
you know, why is it the numbers are so universal?
I guess because there exist in the natural world observable,
kind of quantifiable things that these numbers represent. So it
sort of makes sense that, you know, we would need
(07:28):
to kind of have a standard for this, right, I mean,
have you ever maybe you could say it or how
you see it? Ben, What do you think that reason
is for the universality of a number system?
Speaker 1 (07:39):
It's crazy, man. I think you're on I think you're
on the money with the idea of universal observance. Right,
people have different words for the concept of gravity, but
everyone acknowledges gravity exists.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
There's no.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Uncontacted commune you could go to that doesn't understand things
fall down when you throw them into the sky. But
the weird thing is, back in the day, all these
disparate human communities, language groups like you described, empires, civilizations,
they had their own written version of numbers. What you're
(08:21):
using today folks is called the Arabic neural system, and
it's a misnomer because it's from an ancient Indian numerical
system and it spread via trade. It was the easiest
way to talk math, to talk finance, to talk money,
and then the Arabic Boffins adapted this and it propagated
(08:47):
throughout the Islamic world for sure.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
And we can't not mention the Persian mathematician our Quared
Semi he is, to your point, Ben, one of the
aforementioned Boffin's slash nerds who helped popularize this number writing
system way back in the ninth century. So if we
fast forward in time one hundred years or so, we've
(09:14):
got Europeans encountering the Arabic numeral system, and because of
this trade that's around the tenth century. Up until that time, however,
they all been using really really bonkers inefficient, yet you know,
well intentioned system of Roman numerals, which as you know, Ben,
it still mystifies me to this day, and it is
(09:34):
you know, still used obviously in the naming of kings
and things like that. But also you'll see Roman numerals
as a tradition at the bottom of motion pictures the credits,
you'll see like a really long Roman numeral that represents
a year. And when you see that written now you
kind of understand why it's not the best system because
real hard to parse out what exactly it's saying. I
(09:57):
can't hardly do it with just like four characters own
like twenty yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
By the way, let's throw to Max real quick. Here,
Hey Max, what super Bowl is it?
Speaker 2 (10:07):
They go? Another one that uses the romans. Yeah, it
is a number between one and sixty.
Speaker 4 (10:13):
Okay, great, How would you how would you, Parson? How
would you spell it out with Roman numerals?
Speaker 3 (10:19):
It might be what's l L L was a couple
of years ago, which is fifty, So it's like.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
L L l i X l i X super Bowl
licks sounds dirty?
Speaker 4 (10:34):
No, sorry, yeah, yeah, February the most recent one, February
of twenty five was.
Speaker 3 (10:39):
So we're going to be at l LX then next
because that's sixty then, right, LX is fifty nine oh
ten years away from having a really good super Bowl.
Speaker 1 (10:50):
So Roman numerals, right, and thank you, that's a Max
with the facts. If we can add a null tag
on it, that.
Speaker 5 (10:59):
Seek in the Fonda and he's fallen log it's just for.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
You right now for sure.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
But like, for example, if you, let's see, if you,
if you combine different Roman numerals with standard Roman numerals,
you can form these longer numbers, and like, here's an
example of an obnoxious one, like M D C C
C C l x x x x v iii, which
apparently means nine ninety nine thousand.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
Now what if you could just write that an easier way.
Fast forward another several centuries. A guy named Fibdacci who
is low key famous for a couple other things, including
a few sequences uh one in particular, he publishes something
called liber Abakshi in the twelve hundreds, and, just like
(11:52):
al Karzimi before him, this popularizes the Arabic numeral system
in the niscent Western world. Fast forward one more time.
It's a modern day. It's the twenty first century. Everybody
except for the Super Bowl and studio moguls, are using
the Arabic numeral system. Linguistic systems languages across the world
(12:16):
are still as you said, Noel, quite divided one versus
um versus you know, a zhai eines, you know, et cetera.
They all will generally and consistently use this single brilliant
system of numeric notation to agree on basic math.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
For sure.
Speaker 4 (12:38):
And that's not even to mention like the idea of
binary code and the ones and zeros that make up
digital you know, delivery of information. That's a whole other concepts,
and I'd love to get more into that. I think
we've done some stuff around. We definitely did one about
like the turning you know, code breaking machines and all
of that. But it would be fun to talk a
little bit about the history of coding, because it is becoming, gosh,
(13:02):
the thing that they've told you to go to school
for and that is now seemingly being made part of
history being replaced by AI. Not to put too fine
a point on it, but I think that's maybe worth
an episode. So math alone can't define, however, that human experience.
To our previous point, though these observable phenomena that can
(13:24):
ultimately be drilled down into mathematically, even math cannot fully
explain everything, right, So as a result, depending on where
you go and how you experience the world, some numbers
are defined in terms beyond their actual facts. To quote
Lauren quantitative value. So some numbers good, other numbers bad.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
And that's why today, fellow ridiculous historians, we want to
explore some of those numbers called unlucky. We're gonna take
two examples, just to be clear, your mileage may vary.
We're gonna learn some origin stories, some fun superstitions, and
legacy of culture, and then we're also going to go
into some downright ridiculous examples of real life dangerous consequences
(14:13):
based on those beliefs. For now, we're not gonna focus
on thirteen examples. We'll focus on two examples, but we
will start with the number thirteen, because come on, folks,
we're a US based Western podcast, and the most unpopular
(14:34):
number in all of Western discourse is the number thirteen.
Speaker 4 (14:46):
Yeah, it always reminds me of the excellent Pixies song
number thirteen. Baby, let's see standing in her chinos, sure
pulled off clean, got a tattooed breast, say number thirteen.
He doesn't use that word, he uses a different word.
But it is a song about I don't know who
knows what the Pixies songs are about, but it definitely
(15:07):
has a certain doom saying quality to it, which is
where we're going with this, The number thirteen does not
bode well when it pops up Theoretically. Earlier research indicse
that up to teen percent of the US has a
fear of that very number, even in the modern day,
and that cultural fear is so deeply built into society.
(15:29):
There's even a specific word for this phobia. Ben you
found this one. I'm having a hard time even wrapping
my eyeballs around it. Can you give us a reading phobia?
Speaker 2 (15:38):
Trisca de caaphobia? Wow, fear of the number thirteen?
Speaker 4 (15:42):
Wait a minute, wasn't there a movie with Jim Carrey
about the number thirteen?
Speaker 2 (15:48):
Or was it Jim Carrey Hotel One?
Speaker 4 (15:52):
No, it's Jim Carrey Scary number movie, Number movie.
Speaker 2 (15:59):
It is called the number twenty three, not the number.
They did a little spin on it. Interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:06):
Apparently he sees it everywhere and it causes him to
have some psychological break and there's apparently a twist ending.
And it is based on something called the twenty three enigma,
which is a real world concept where people perceive connections
to the number twenty three in real life.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
But that also happens pretty often to individual humans. The
idea of seeing connections no question.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
We're connection making machines.
Speaker 1 (16:32):
We like to see it better, and don't we Max,
you wanted to jump in here? You got a thirteen thing?
Speaker 3 (16:38):
No, I just want to piggyback on something Noel said
about the Pixies recently. When I was coming back from Portland,
I was on vacation out there, some Pixies came on.
I was listening to it, and you know, it's good
when I hear the Pixies. But I'm like, I was like,
man when I started listening to Pixies in high school.
I'm being like, man, I can't wait tell them an adult.
And I understand what these lyrics mean, mean nothing, they
made nothing, nobody.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
It's a vibe based lyric, Yeah, Frank, vibe based lyric.
Speaker 2 (17:03):
Credible lime logic of the Stone Temple pilots for sure,
or even like Radiohead.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And that's one thing I really dig about, certain lyrics
that are less to be interpreted or have an exact
outright meaning. But it's more what you bring to it,
which is exactly what we do as patterns seeking humans
with them.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Humans are the first thing to look at the heavens
and the mechanisms of reality and say how does this
apply to me? How could I make this about?
Speaker 4 (17:33):
When you put it like that, we kind of sound
like a holes. But I guess you know, fairpoint, fairpoint.
Speaker 1 (17:38):
Yeah, accurate too, no kidding, friends and neighbors. People now
in twenty twenty five in the Western world will genuinely
avoid occasions of auspice. We could call them avoiding marriages, reunions,
significant business handshakes, travel on days this, I'll say it.
(18:00):
Beat me, Max bullshit calendar calls the thirteenth, especially Friday
the thirteenth.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
Buddy, I'm such a dang dong.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I did not even think about Friday the thirteenth in
this very clear discussion of unlucky numbers and the number thirteenth.
Of course, it's not like it's the halloweenius non Halloween,
you know, day of the year.
Speaker 1 (18:23):
You're okay, careu. It happens all the time. There's even
a whole horror movie franchise literally called Friday the thirteenth.
Speaker 4 (18:31):
Well, yeah, that's certainly the most popular pop cultural use
of that. And I don't know, if I don't know,
do you know people that freak out about Friday the
thirteenth or talk about it in hushed tones?
Speaker 2 (18:42):
Not a series of films, but the day. I know
a few, I know a few.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Most people I know talk about the franchise talk about
it in a very excited way because they're horror film
fanatics and they love.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Pace of warhies, Chasing's great. Yeah, don't what the camper? Yeah,
they love it.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
When my favorite Jason kill in an early movie, it
might be the first one, is when he just takes
a camper who's in a sleeping bag and like cinches
it up at the top and just slams them into
a tree repeatedly. I thought that was very clever. But
if I'm not mistaken, Friday the thirteenth maybe correct us
out there, horror bofens. But does it actually is? Is
(19:22):
that a meaningful event in the film or is it
just kind of referring to just the concept of unluckiness
and a bad day?
Speaker 2 (19:32):
I can't recall. I actually can't recall.
Speaker 1 (19:34):
I think regardless of how the franchise begins, they lose
touch over the course of the franchise. With Friday the Thirteenth.
Speaker 4 (19:42):
It says here on the Internet that the date does
not consistently to your point bend feature in the series.
The first film and only a few subsequent films actually
take place on that specific date, so the movie series
has a confusing timeline and doesn't always adhere to the
date mentioned in the title.
Speaker 1 (20:01):
Fair enough, speaking of confusing, shout out to Crystal Lake.
While all the hubbub bubbs over Friday the thirteenth, or
thirteen in general, let's travel all the way back to
the first pitch of why this number became bad. It
goes to the Code of Hamaabi, and the idea is
and the speculation goes that Hama Rabbi's Code the first
(20:25):
written or the first documented measure of law that humans know.
Speaker 2 (20:30):
Now.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
It has a list of things right that are going
to be crimes and legally punishable, and it purposely omits
a thirteenth law from its legal rules. So this might
sound like some ancient precedent and super easy to walk
around and say, oh, these folks of old were also
(20:53):
really scared of the number thirteen, But it turns out
the reality of this is kind of ridiculous and classic
human It was probably a typo based on the earliest translations.
They accidentally skipped a line of text.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
I love like when doomsday prophecies are based on like
typos or just that that historical game of telephone that
we always talk about.
Speaker 2 (21:19):
It just it brightens my day.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Shout out to twenty twelve. Yeah, one hundred percent. And
I'm certain that that that this is something that you
found as well. But I'd love to explore it more.
The idea of I don't see this always. Do you
see buildings not having a thirteenth floor all the time anymore?
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Ooh, I'm excited that we're going to get to that. Yes, yeah, yeah,
because it still continues. The thing about the surviving Code
of Hamarabi, to make it even more ridiculous, is that
that translation is not numbered. There's a list of crimes
and you know, legal rulings, but they are they're like
(22:00):
the things in an email with a dot instead of
a one and a two, so there's no number thirteen
to miss. It means that none of these folks were
frightened by some mystical mathematical power. Instead, they were in
a hurry. Stuff fell through the cracks. And maybe another
(22:22):
theory is that because of the base ten Arabic numeral system.
Maybe it's because of that early Mesopotamian societies were super
dupes into what we would call base twelve math. That's
part of why we measure days in twenty four hour cycles, right,
(22:43):
twelve times two, or why the modern international calendar, which
is again malarkey, has twelve months. The idea there is.
Speaker 2 (22:51):
That thirteen is just too spoopy.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
It's omination, it's unnatural.
Speaker 4 (22:57):
Now that, if I'm not mistaken, when we did calendar stuff,
it was definitely not for that reason, right, It was
more of like it. They needed the math to add up,
so twelve made the most sense. You're right, and I've
never claimed to fully wrap my head around any of that.
Speaker 2 (23:11):
Either. I am not good at math. That's a weed.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
Mutually, are both buffoonishly confused when Thanksgiving or Easter occur
in the West. I think both of us just assume
someone will tell us these rotating holidays, and that is
unfortunately true ridiculous historians. Then we have the other stories
(23:37):
about thirteen. They're very spiritually based. Judas is Carriaut famous
in certain religious circles. He's the thirteenth guest at the
Last Supper. He betrayed the guy who repeatedly helped him
out and saved his life, Jesus Christ, Jesus H.
Speaker 2 (23:55):
Christ. If you like, and there's no age, And Harold,
where does that even come from?
Speaker 4 (24:01):
He was sorry, really no think anyway, maybe that's something
worth exploring to absurdly Hank then with the dubious facts.
Speaker 1 (24:38):
And there's an earlier example of this, Loki from Nordic lore,
who was again the thirteenth guide and important party and
kind of a pill in those stories. This carries on
in multiple forms today. Uh, this is where we're getting
to what you alluded to so beautifully earlier, Noel. It
is even now in twenty twenty five not uncommon to
(25:01):
find an elevator with no thirteen floor button on it,
especially in airports, hospitals, institutions of higher learning, which is
funny to me. It just skips straight from twelve to fourteen.
Have you run into any of this, you guys.
Speaker 4 (25:22):
I do always try to look for it, and what
I was mentioning earlier, the reason.
Speaker 2 (25:25):
I brought it up, I feel like I don't see it.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
As much anymore in terms of there not being a thirteen,
But I don't know.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
I can't really say for certain.
Speaker 4 (25:36):
I definitely have witnessed such things, but in my mind
I always seem to try to look for it, and
be like, we wait, no, there's a thirteen.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Why is there a thirteen?
Speaker 1 (25:45):
So yeah, I put you off, like, are you going
to stay on that floor the hotel?
Speaker 2 (25:49):
Da da da da? Duh? It's so weird, exactly.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
It's so weird, right because even if, like most people
in a secular world, even if you don't actively practice superstition,
we all have a thing where we kind of err
on the side of caution. Right, if it is convenient
for me to not put myself in a situation that
superstition tells me is disadvantageous, then I'll avoid that situation.
(26:18):
I will stay on floor fifteen just to be safe.
This is the wildest part of the unlucky number. Reckoning
thirteen as a bad number is primarily overwhelmingly a Western phobia.
If you went back to ancient Egypt, certain dynasties saw
the number thirteen as kind of lucky. So the fear
(26:42):
of this number is not a cross cultural phenomenon. It
is culturally dependent. No one is absolutely sure how it
came about, but everybody heard it to your point about
the game of telephone and repeated it to each other.
So if you are not from Western in society and
you're looking in on the benighted Europeans, Americans, Canadians, a
(27:07):
little bit of Mexico as well, then you will probably
think it somewhere between cute and weird that people care
so much about what floor of the hotel they're sleeping on.
Speaker 4 (27:22):
Yeah, and if we're doing another musical ref if you
don't mind, there is a really cool, influential psych rock
band from Austin, Texas called The Thirteenth Floor Elevators with
Rocky Erickson, a famous oddball front person who I believe
passed away and he had some mental health issues, but
a very very talented dude.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
I highly recommend checking out their work. But it's not
a clever name.
Speaker 4 (27:47):
It's this the thirteenth Floor Elevators, the elevators that only
go to the scary floor.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Love it, Love it. And that's an excellent example. We
can also say, for example, thirteen is kind of a larchy,
as in, there is no real world consequence for ending
up with thirteen on your license plate or thirteen guests
at your dinner party. But speaking of for example, let's
(28:15):
get to one of the most infamous unlucky numbers. Half
a world away. Way more people are frightened of the
number four.
Speaker 4 (28:32):
Yeah, I had no idea about this one, Ben, This
is fascinating. It is considered super unlucky throughout large parts
of Asia, very similar if not more so in terms
of the paranoia surrounding it to the way the West
looks at number thirteen. So even today you will find
elevators that won't list the fourth floor going from three
(28:53):
directly to five, or having like a subheading on three,
so like the floor between three and would be three.
A I can't wait three and a half reminds me
of the tiny floor from being John Malcolmvich.
Speaker 1 (29:06):
Oh, perfect reference. Yeah, I can't wait till we make
it over to that part of the world together for
Ridiculous History Live. You're absolutely correct. No, throughout China to one,
the Korean Peninsula and Japan, the number four is treated
with even more suspicion than we in the West treat
the number thirteen. Again, it's so common that there is
(29:31):
an entire word for the fear of the number four
in English. It's pretty predictable. It's tetraphobia, and that is
unfortunately not related to tetris phobia, which would have big fun.
Speaker 4 (29:45):
So cool that these very niche. Yeah, maybe it's not
niche if enough people believe it. Fears have their own phobias,
just like in the West, elevators and hospitals and airports
and apartment buildings, office buildings are going to skip the
fourth floor in Beijing, for example, license plates avoid using
that number. Though I do wonder, like, how is this
(30:06):
implemented systematically? Like a lot of those numbers are sort
of randomly generated, or they're generated based on pre existing sequences,
like what if your number comes up as they say,
you know, is someone gonna like complain? Are they gonna say, uh,
I don't want that one?
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah? What are you doing?
Speaker 1 (30:23):
License plate issuing authority? Are you telling me to die?
Are you final destinationing me? I'm gonna make it a
verb anyway over over in Singapore, dude, the legendary Alpha
Romeo had the Model one four and they had to
change the name to sell it to these high rolling,
(30:45):
very fancy tycoons.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
It's very interesting.
Speaker 4 (30:48):
It reminds me of the way American movies often have
to be re edited for Asian markets to remove mentions
of overtly supernatural stuff. And I mean, maybe I'm overstate
over simplifying that, but I do recall that a Ghostbusters
movie was very very heavily edited, and that mentions of
ghosts in general, and you know, spiritual entities are kind
(31:09):
of frowned upon over there because of very similar cultural sensitivities.
Speaker 1 (31:13):
M one hundred percent. Yeah, And do check out our
earlier gosh, what was it stuff they don't want you
to know episodes about American studios sort of tailoring their
products to Chinese markets, who are, by the way, folks,
the biggest theatrical market out there.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:34):
Oftentimes movies will make their budget or become profitable even
if they're a flop here at home, because they do
well abroad.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
Shout out to specific specific grim. I think it's a
great movie.
Speaker 4 (31:45):
I didn't see any of the sequels, and I did
also want to point out a recent ish episode we
did on Ridiculous History about some international, uh let's say,
events negative that were caused by miss prints, you know,
in products and various American kind of things that you know,
created quite a kerfuffle abroad because of you know, mistranslations.
(32:09):
It's not exactly the same, but I think it's a
good spiritual kind of partner to this episode.
Speaker 1 (32:15):
Right on you know, it may astound a lot of
us listening to realize that multiple international brands will purposefully
and preemptively retouch their products entirely to avoid using the
number four in Asian markets. So we have to ask,
(32:36):
why is this tetraphobia so much stronger than triskdea of
phobia which I am stumbling through the fear of the
number thirteen. The true answer here, folks, which we can
give you the straight poop, is this The number four
as a fearful number is rooted in language. It goes
(32:57):
way way back. It's often misreport like. Think about it
this way. The number thirteen in English is a relatively
singular word. You can slant rhyme it with phrases like
the third teen or thirstteen, but the actual word thirteen
(33:17):
is just what it means. It means three more units
past ten. That's not the case here. In multiple languages
across East Asia, the word for four sounds distressingly similar
to the word for death. Thank you for the sound You're.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
There next, Oh yes, oh no, death, Sweet embrace.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Picture being a.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
Kid over in the mainland Middle Kingdom and you're learning
to count you got eh song.
Speaker 4 (33:49):
Death, Oh no, it's so metal, it's sure uh so,
well that doesn't sound quite a scary but.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
Well, without going into the weeds, Chinese, as we know,
is a tone language, or it's a collection of tonal languages.
Mandarin has four tones, Cantonese has too many for us
to learn. And it means that the pronounced tone of
a vocalization indicates the concept the content you are communicating.
If if we could, this might just be fun for us.
(34:20):
Can we play a weird poem that shows us how
bizarre this total language can become?
Speaker 2 (34:27):
Only if we can all listen to it together. Ben,
that sounds lovely so.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
In English, this is the lion eating poet in the
Stone Den, or you could say the story of mister
she eating lions. Every word in here is a different
total pronunciation of shit.
Speaker 5 (34:50):
The title sessh ish, the contentesh suh.
Speaker 4 (35:09):
You see what I'm saying makes your head spin in
the best way I hear it. But boy, oh boy,
it's about the inflection, right, It's about the tonality of
the upward or downward, and then sometimes the length of
the sound. It seems like some are shorter, some are
a little longer, some have it's interesting tones yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:30):
Yeah, no, I love it. It's really cool. Ben.
Speaker 1 (35:32):
Well, we're not the ones who came up with it, Noel,
but it gives us a sense as non native speakers
about the concept. And then we say, what about the
languages in nearby regions that do not rely on tones?
Speaker 2 (35:47):
In Japan and.
Speaker 1 (35:48):
Korea, the words for for and for death are likewise similar.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
Correct In Japanese, for or she and death she share
the same pronunciation, okay, that makes sense. In Korean, however,
both are pronounced saw. So people in Japan particularly do
not like the number forty nine double whammy, as it
sounds sort of like saying pain until death.
Speaker 2 (36:13):
Happy birthday, everybody, exactly. Not cool, man.
Speaker 4 (36:18):
The kids are really into some numerology stuff these days.
There's a new brain rot kind of term that's like
sixty seven.
Speaker 2 (36:27):
I want to say six seven seven. Hold on, let's
see slang.
Speaker 4 (36:35):
Sixty seven means to abruptly, reject, dismiss, or leave someone
or something, often used to tell somebody to go away.
So it seems like it's part of a meme and
kids are saying that now. But then I remember eighty six,
which meant in restaurant parlance that something was out that
you were out of something.
Speaker 2 (36:54):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (36:55):
I'm very curious about where some of these numbers come from.
Maybe it's like from like walkie talkie or something like that.
Speaker 2 (37:01):
But I digress.
Speaker 1 (37:02):
Now, who are we to eighty six superstition? It does
make me wonder about the old stories of unfortunately named
automobiles in different linguistic markets. It also makes me wonder
about how films like The Fantastic Four are going to
play in Asia, again, with China being the largest theatrical market.
Speaker 4 (37:25):
Well oftentimes, though, like those types of movies, numbers aside
get a much more culturally under recognizable name. It'll be
like the Magic Family, the Magic Family, Yes, thank you, Ben,
thank you one hundred percent, the Stretchy Boy and the
Fireman you know.
Speaker 1 (37:43):
Yeah yeah, perfect, I mean and joking aside, there's a
great deal of xenophobia on either shore the proverbial pond here,
so we have to keep in mind that the vast
majority of modern humans are not actively terrify of numbers
that just exist without opinions or powers of their own.
(38:05):
A ton of Eastern and Western literature over the centuries
has practiced othering, and it's portraying people that the authors
have never met as slaves to some sort of superstition.
But look, also, if all things equal, right, if you
are in the West and you have the opportunity to
(38:29):
choose between floor twelve and floor fifteen, you might not
go for thirteen if you don't have to try extra
you know.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Yeah, that's true. Then maybe maybe well maybe you get
a deal on thirteen.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Maybe you get a deal on thirteen. We're revealing a
lot about ourselves.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
In that case.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, we are down to sleep on floor thirteen as
well as floor four. Maybe we do an episode on
lucky numbers in the future. What do you think, what.
Speaker 2 (39:00):
A great idea. Yeah, the Yen and the Young. Yeah,
what I know, eight.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Is seen as a fortuitous number in some parts of
the world.
Speaker 2 (39:09):
I mean the obvious one is lucky number seven, I think, yeah, yeah,
I don't know. Let's see three Trinity three, Yeah, the
Holy Trinity wouilch.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
I probably would would be a reasoning behind that being
a lucky number. But I am also fascinated about we
briefly mentioned it up top, but like, what makes numbers
have power?
Speaker 2 (39:33):
In that Kabbala tradition of Jewish mysticism. I need to
read that.
Speaker 4 (39:38):
I need Yeah, I need to revisit PI to maybe
answer some of those questions or just do a little digging.
But man, Ben, what a great research doc you put
together on this one. It's such a cool topic and
I had a lot of fun talking about.
Speaker 2 (39:50):
It with you.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Well, we're going to spin this out so we don't
end on forty four. Big big thanks to our super producer,
mister Max Williams. Big thanks to our Brotherred Arms Alex Williams,
who composed this slap and bop. Have you checked in
with them? Miss him a little?
Speaker 2 (40:10):
I miss him quite a lot. I haven't talked to
him in a.
Speaker 4 (40:12):
Hot minute, but I do owe him a poke to
use the antiquated Facebook parlance.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
Yeah, and huge thanks to Rachel Big Spinach Lance will.
Speaker 4 (40:21):
Be joining us soon if if she has anything to
do with it, because we're really bad at email, but
we really are excited to have her talk about some
underwater explosiony type stuff. Big thanks to Jonathan Strickland, the
Quiztor a j Bahamas Jacobs the Puzzler.
Speaker 1 (40:35):
Medium thanks to Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiztor. Big thanks
to Eve's Jeffcoat Christopher hasiotis here in spirit, The Rude Dudes,
that Ridiculous Crime Big thanks to Doctor Venkman, Apollo and
the Cat with a Thousand Names. Also, don't think I
forgot Max Big thanks to Sylvia mm hmm.
Speaker 2 (40:58):
See you next time, folks.
Speaker 4 (41:06):
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Ben Bowlin
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