November 20, 2025 • 42 mins
Do you have a favorite tree? In today's episode, Ben, Noel and Max head over to the famous college town of Athens, Georgia where -- legend has it -- one guy was so enamored with his childhood oak that he ultimately deeded it to itself. How much of the story is true? Can a tree really "own itself"?
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer,
mister Max Williams. WHOA, I am secretly a tree in disguise.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What a good disguise it is to sway in the breeze.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And that's mister Noel Brown. Let's give it up for him.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I'm more of a stump kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Oh, don't do it. I can see you as a willow,
not a weepy one. From time to time. I've been
known to weep. Is you Ben by the way, Yes, yeah,
Ben Bullen from earlier today, Folks, we wanted to let
you know that we love trees and we hope that
(01:14):
isn't a hot take. Could I tell you, guys a
quick little anecdote, and this is something that's been on
my mind. A treetail, a tree tail? Yes, okay, So
you know, Max, I don't know if you're aware of this.
You probably are because I'm insufferable, but uh, Noel, you're
well aware that I have been in a long term
(01:35):
relationship with a murder of crows.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh I thought you were going to say, with a
field of widows a growth murderer. So here's I mean,
I am familiar with this devil's pact you've made with
these corvids.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yes, yeah, oh corvid it's nice. We got a whistle
and everything. So, uh, local scoop here on the ground
is that they are these awesome trees, these awesome, magnificent
trees right in my area, and I befriended crows who
lived in those trees. However, the people who owned those
(02:13):
trees recently did some tree cutting work. They didn't cut
down the whole tree, they didn't stump it, but they
cut off the branches of these trees for safety and
power lines and stuff. They look what they've done to
our boy. Yeah, they mutilated it. And this scared away
our local murder of crows. However, as we were coming
(02:38):
into record today, Noel, the crows have returned and they
left me a thing shiny.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Objects perchance it's I mean it's object.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
It's a button they found and they were like humans, right,
our favorite human from earlier, that guy is human, so
clearly he likes buttons.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Also, I mean, it's very clear that he's missing a
key button on his signature blazer.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That's what I'm sure, that's their thought process.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
They clocked it. They're thoughtful creatures.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
They're thoughtful and avengeful, and they're the best friends you
can have or the worst enemy, similar to like the mafia.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And that's because much like the Mafia, the crows remember.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
The Crows remember. And so why are we telling you
this anecdote, folks, fellow ridiculous historians. It's because of this.
This is what occurred to us watching our tree friends
get dismembered. It wouldn't have happened if that tree owned itself.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Wait a minute, I don't understand now, I'm kidding, I'm
being coy.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I donder. Actually that's not sure.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I don't fully understand the logistics of it. We are,
in fact talking about a very particular tree, a legendary
located in our fair state of Georgia, in nearby Athens,
Georgia of University and football and of course music fame,
the University of Georgia Go Dogs is there. It's where
bands like R. E. M. And the B fifty two's
(04:15):
and more recently like the Elephant six collective Olivia Trimmer
control nutrient hotel, our buddy Ben Hackett. He lives there,
and he's big, he's legendary in his own right, and
he also owns himself, which makes sense from a human perspective.
We have agency as humans. Our lives are our own.
But how does that work for a tree? And is
(04:37):
a tree a living thing in this context or is
it like an inanimate object like can a couch own itself?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, that's a great question, Noel, And I'm going to
lean on you for part of this because you've spent
more time in Athens, Georgia than I have. You know,
you're well acquainted with the music, seeing you move in
and out. We also want to give a shout out
to our pal Christopher Hasiotis, who is here in spirit.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Could I bury the lead and work in reverse and
never get to the thing. There's a tree there in
Athens that owns itself.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I'm just making sure.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I don't know if I dropped that particular breadcrumb yet,
so I did things a little out of order. But yes, indeed,
that is the question here. How does this tree actually
own itself?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Is it just the stuff of legend?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
If it were to be true, how is it possible
We're going to get right into this little known legend
of the tree that owns itself, the story, whether true
or a tall tale, of the tree that owns itself.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
There in Athens, Georgia. All right, here's this story, and
we want to shout out all of our fellow ridiculous
historians who have ever seen a tree that we really loved.
If you go to Athens, Georgia, over at the corner
(05:57):
of South Finley and Deering Street, you will see a
white oak. Or get this man, the technical name for
it quirkus alba.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It's quirky. Athens is quirky. Keep Athens weird, y'all.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So quirkus alba. This white oak, somehow, apparently, according to
the lore, has legal ownership of itself and all of
the land within eight feet of its base.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Now you know, this makes me think of immediately this
idea of like wealthy people dating their you know, as
their estates to their beloved pet or something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Wasn't there a televangelist who deeded stuff to their dog.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
That seems like something one of them might do. The
original tree in question here is thought to have begun
its lifespan, which, as we know, for trees can be
quite long in the mid sixteenth and late eighteenth century,
so the tree in question, the original tree in question,
is thought to have started its tree life, which as
we know, can be quite long. And Ben, I'm sure
(07:01):
that you're on the same page with me about this.
One thing I think we dig about trees is this
idea of there being a living history. You know, it's
this idea of just picturing what it was like all
around it, you know, lo those many years ago, when
it was just a little sapling. It was thought to
have begun its life in the mid sixteenth to late
eighteenth century, but was felled in nineteen forty two.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah. Yeah. However, as we'll see here a bit of
a spoiler, folks, a new tree was grown from one
of its acorns and then planted in the same location.
This current tree, as well fined, is sometimes referred to
as the sun of the tree that owns itself, which
feels like such a ful horror movie.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Hammer hammer horror horror, exactly like Brida Frankenstei And again,
so Athens, they're so quirky over there. And like I
was saying earlier, trees do tend to have quite long
lifespans along with their descendants, because every one of those
little acorns that get dropped has the potential to be carried,
you know, hither and yon and start a whole new tree.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Every acorn can become a great oak, just like you folks.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I know, isn't that like one of those like you're
doing great kind of cat hanging from the off of
a tree posters you'd see in like choir class when
you're in.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
School, or like Andre three thousand said in the recent
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction for Outcast, it
starts in little rooms.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
There you go. Yeah, we can relate to that. We've
started in little rooms too. Remember the little room we
used to podcast in with boarded up windows.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Where podcasts begun.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Heck, to this day, a lot of podcasts happen in
the littlest of rooms aka closets. And to give some
lifespan stats, a lot of these types of trees can
live up to four hundred and fifty years. So it
is a safe bet that the first tree had been
in that spot for quite a very long time, way
before there was any need for legal loopholes.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And Shenanigan ring Oo mentioned that part. Yes, So for
anybody who is not familiar, Yes, folks. Here in the
United States and indeed the world overall, it is unusual
for a tree to quote own itself. Trees are considered
like pretty much all other plant life, meaning they're not
(09:20):
typically recognized as legal entities with agency in the United States. Instead,
they're considered part and parcel of the land itself. So,
for instance, if like Max Nol and I decide to
buy a few acres in Tennessee as we build our
fallout bunker, our purchase is not just going to include
(09:43):
the actual surface, but the land beneath it, as well
as all of the plants and trees growing on it.
They don't get a say no, it's sort of a
packaged deal. Can we go in on this parcel of
land with our buddy, the Tennessee pal Yeah, yeah, of
course we'll include Dylan. Yes, yes, we must.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
We're going to start our fallout doomsday bunker slash commune,
you know, for the end times.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, we should have started a year ago. That was
the best time, but the second best time is today.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The second best time is always the present. There's no
second best better time than the present.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
There we go so why is this story different. Well,
we looked into it, and as far as we can tell,
the earliest primary source confirmed record of this tale dates
back to a front page article in the Athens Weekly
(10:40):
Banner August twelfth, eighteen ninety, written by someone will never know,
an anonymous author. So someone just posted as anon, they're
in the Weekly Banner.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Which is just the most wholesome name for a small
town newspaper.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
If I might say, I would say my favorite, my
favorite wholesome local newspaper name is picka yune. I don't
know what's good.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I also liked the plane dealer is another fun one,
and I think I like picka yun because it's just
such an unusual specific word. Anyway, So, according to this
anonymous author, who may have had a horse in the race,
here the tree what the tree in question was on
the property of a guy named Colonel William Henry Jackson.
(11:32):
And William Henry Jackson was a real person, is kind
of murky and was super duper duper connected. He was
the son of James Jackson, a Revolutionary War soldier who
later went on to become a congressman and then a senator.
And in the you know typical Southern trajectory of politics.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
He then became the governor. Yeah, as you do. And
so our old Colonel Willie was also the brother of
another congressman. I need help on this name, Jebez Young Jackson,
jab e Z. I haven't met a Jebez.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
In real haven'ts And in my mind I want to
make the jay a soft j and how to be
a Jabez?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It just sounds like fun. It could go either way.
Jebez is another perfectly good version. And Colonel William Willy
Willy boy I was also the father of another James Jackson,
who himself would have quite the meteoric rise in politics.
He became a congressman and eventually the chief Justice of
George's Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, these things we can prove. However, these things we
can prove not necessarily the providence of the tree. But
to understand the story this pitch from the Athens Weekly banner,
we got to look a little closer into Colonel Willie.
So Colonel Willie's sounds like a euphemism.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Right, sounds like something that what Big Jumbo would have said.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Now, who was that?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Who was who was the big jumbo guy Lyndon Johnson,
Lyndon B. Johnson President, his old fella as big Jumbo.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's jugo. And would he have been
it was? It was definitely not Dumbo, You're right, it
was Jumbo. Would he have if he had not become
a politician or a president? Would Lyndon Johnson just have
been some creepy guy in his local town? So I
had a name for his Australia. Absolutely, absolutely he was.
(13:37):
He was a character consistent. So all right, here's the thing, folks.
We know that Colonel Willie was allegedly apparently a professor
at Uga. He was sometimes referred to as doctor Jackson
in reporting of the day, but we haven't proved that yet.
We have reached out to the University of Georgia who
(14:00):
asked them if they can verify any sort of tenure
or time spent teaching students. So we'll catch you up
when when we hear back. You know, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I have been actually going to Athens a great deal
lately of a good friend of mine in front of
the show, Eric Kinlaw recently moved there and I.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Lived there years ago.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
My kid went to school there for some years, and
I also grew up going to shows there, so it
is a really near and dear place to me. But
there's a lot of little legendary things there in Athens
that are connected to history, that are connected to the university,
and that are connected.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
To music lore.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
One of which was this really cool little soul food
restaurant called Weaver Deese, whose motto to this day it's
on their handwritten little sign is Automatic for the People,
which is of course the title of one of the
most popular and famous RAM albums. And I all the
time I've spent there, I only just when Eric moved there,
(14:58):
went and ate there, and it was phenomenal. Had a
Meeting three situation, the dude that runs it like the
guy in the Kitchen Classic, you know, southern soul food
Meeting three type joint.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And then I just found out a week or so
ago that it closed.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
It is but at least I got to eat there once,
but legendary and sad that it went away.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So there are a lot of local legends in Athens
because it is such a phenomenal college town. You know,
there's the double barreled cannon, the university arch arsh, yeah,
and the tree that owns itself now is part of
this Well, another thing we can't prove about our buddy
Willie Jackson is the nature of his military service, nor
(15:40):
any publicly available records of how he attained the rank
of colonel.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Oh, Ben, you know it's another kind of facet of
Southern gentry. Your calling yourself the colonel. Well, of course, yeah,
you don't have to actually have obtained a rank of
colonel militarily speaking to go by the colonel, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, they used to call me. They used to call
me colonel Angus. Don't we call your pops the colonel
sometimes he is?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Actually yeah, okay, he did attain the rank, so he
came by it honestly. But it's true we do think
of colonel as being somewhat of a Southern gentlemanly nicknames
And that's.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Isn't that weird how that happens in specifically the Southeastern
United States, not just with military rank, but with religious rank,
Like there will be people who call themselves Bishop so
and so, but you're not Catholic. I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's also like the murkiness of the term cousin when
it gets thrown around a lot as well, but that's
not just the same thing.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So what we do know is that our boy will
will H.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Jackson aka Colonel Willie, who definitely had big Willie style,
which I only just recently realized is somewhat of a euphemism.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
In its own right.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Even though will Smith didn't need a cuss in his
radit cell records, he did love a good innuendo.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah it's okay, man. It took me forever to figure
out the main ingredient in soy sauce is indeed soy.
It's true. Yeah, and you know, will goody sauce, most
of it's weak.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Now that's true. You know what I love is a
good mushroom soy sauce. I have one that I've been using.
And will Smith might might argue that he had had
no ill intent with that title, and then it was
entirely clean.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
He had a will intent. I think you did so.
William H.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Jackson did own the property on the opposite side of
Deering Street that was adjacent to that tree. The plot
included the address two twenty six Deering Street as it
stands today, and in the early nineteenth century, it was
at that point just a lot with the designation of
number fourteen. The tree is located on a portion of
(17:58):
what had been lot number fifteen.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah yeah, so there was proximity, right, And Colonel Willie
is living in his area with his wife Mildred, and
eventually along with a character named Ja Cobb. Don't memorize
the name because he never shows up again. Along with
(18:21):
this guy, they sold their property collectively. There's a lot
to a dude named doctor Malthus Ward, doctor Malthus. He
sounds like a necromancer.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
He does a little Malthusian perhaps, Yeah yeah, yeah, that
was in.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Eighteen thirty two, yeah, yeah, yeah, And this is the
same year that is cited on a local plaque as
being the date the tree got deeded to itself. If
you go to the Clark County real estate records, you'll
see there is no indication of when or from whom
(18:58):
Colonel Willie originally purchased the property. Of course, this helps
inform the legend.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So, according to the story, our buddy will really loved
this frickin' tree. If you can, we do, let's give
it to you, you know, can you give us a
real like Colonel Angus seen shoeing voice get get your
Juli stars, get your jul up together and let's h
(19:25):
can we share this clip from the Athens Weekly banner.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Giving me the vapors there ben talking about Colonel Ankus.
Colonel Jackson had watched the tree grow from his childhood
and grew to love it almost as he would a human.
It's luxuriant foliage and sturdy limbs that often protected him
from the heavy rains. I'm mixing it up here a bit,
but I know you're nill out and out of its
(19:52):
highest branches. He had many a time gotten the eggs.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Of the feathered songstess.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
He watched it growth, and when on reaching a rap
old age, he saw the tree standing and it's magnificent propultions.
And now I'm doing a little bit of a British thing.
I'm gonna coming back and coming back. He was pined
to think that after his death it would fall into
the hands of them what might destroy it.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I added, I liked it, so the God right, so
testify there So, according to this article, our boy, due
to his close childhood association with this white oak or
Quercus alba, he he deeds the tree ownership of itself
(20:41):
and the surrounding land, and he does it in an
attempt to ensure that no one, including future family members,
will ever be able to knock it down.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, here's the question, and we might get into this,
We are going to get into this, the legal loophole
of it all. But it's like, if you don't leave
your property to an air, and you don't have an air,
what happens to it?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Does it just like.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Go to the county, like if there's no one there
to keep it up or because obviously this would also
require some dispensation or footnote for upkeep right, like if
the tree owns itself, the tree can't trim itself or
take care of the land around it. But yeah, maybe
back to my original question, what does happen if, like
I guess, is it then sold off? It's bitted on?
(21:34):
Like I guess, I don't know the details of what
happens when there is no air to pass property onto.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, it's a little outside our scope because it varies
from country to country and indeed from state to state.
There are actually online just for a tangent here, there
are websites you can check that will tell you if
you are the rightful biological inheritor of the things. So
(22:04):
usually it goes to the closest living relative before the
state or big government takes possession. That can't happen if
that doesn't end up working out like you said, with
the closest you know, living relatives. And there's a term
here that is getting used that it's new to me
in in instasy, intestacy, intestacy. Yes, and the process, the
(22:29):
legal process you're talking about of transferring it to this.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Day is called escheatment. We're learning so many new, very
esoteric legalese words today.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yes, just like ja copy. They may not come up again.
But let's see if we can give ourselves bonus points
for using those terms in cheatment and instensasy, in testasy, intestacy.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
In cheatment, okay, ineste the enn.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
If we can, if we can use those phrases, Max,
I need you in on this. If we can use
those phrases again organically like a tree by the end
of this episode, we give ourselves eight hundred and twenty
to eight hundred and thirty two bonus points.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah. I don't know if it's possible, Ben, it's so specific,
but hey, I'm on board.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Let's see if it can happen. Look forward to it.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I'm willing to play your redeer reindeer games.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I love it. And I'm still mad at Matt for
nagging me on a recent episode of stuff they don't
want you to know what. I was like, I'll play
your reindeer games. He's like, no, these are reindeer games too.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, I mean, maybe he was just dead serious, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, he's a serious guy, and please do check out
stuff they don't want you to know. You'll if you
dig our show, you'll hopefully love that show. I usually
say that NOL, but it's weird because we host that
and create that show as well.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Sure, yeah, but I think there's some truth to that.
If you dig this, you'll probably dig that. And actually,
the next episode we're about to record for Ridiculous History
very much would be right at home on stuff they
don't want you to know. We're talking to a little
a little bit of a true crime murder mystery, which
is a little out out of the scope of what
we usually do here, So look forward to that. I
also involve something that's been in the news lately, Tail
and all, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, it's in the zeitgeist now. If you go to Athens,
according to the story which and we could confirm this,
you'll see this idea of deating a tree legal ownership
of itself took place somewhere between eighteen twenty and eighteen
thirty two. How do we know that there is a
(24:41):
commemorative plaque on the tree's retaining wall that claims had
attained an independence in eighteen thirty two? If I could
chew a bit of scenery and sip a jewlup on
this one, we'll give you the text. M Oh, that's mean, Julip.
I'm kidding. It's iced coffee. But there we go. Four
(25:01):
And in consideration, great little Bell, this tree and the
great desire have for its protection fall time a colay,
entire possession all itself and old land within eight feet
of this tree roll side William heh Jackson h really.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Odd to the way the lines are broken up in
this one.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
It's just funny.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
We got four and in consideration and then line two
of the Great Love I bear line three this tree
and the Great's almost like it reads like a poem,
and it is poetry, especially the way you recited it.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Ben.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
So per that article, the actual deed in question uses
the following language.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I W. H.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Jackson of the County of Clark in the Stathens Clark
County of the one part, and the oak Tree of
the County of Clark of the other part.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Witness, I witness if that's the said W. H.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Jackson for and in consideration of the great affection which
she bears said tree, as stated in the Blackard, and
his great desire to see it protected, has conveyed and
by these presidents do convey unto the said oak tree
entire possession of itself and of all land within eight
feet of it on all sides or.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Two point four meters. Right. Yeah, this is weird, Okay,
So this is a thing that confused us. And just
to be clear if this is an actual deed, what
he's saying is that when he says Clark County Clerk
of the one part, he's talking about one party and
a negotiation, and he is the other part, Colonel Willie.
(26:47):
So this art, this all comes to us from Athens
Weekly Banner, and it was again written anonymously decades after
this purported dedication back in the eighteen in eighteen thirty two.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I love this idea of the oak tree having residency
in Clark County. Like I just all of this reads
like an elaborate prank.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Also, I love the Southern idea to this field. Okay,
so we discover all sorts of weird turns of phrases
that we make up here. Seahorse teeth shut straight, seahorse teeth,
shut your wet mouth, et cetera. One thing that I
think would be really great for us to whip out
(27:31):
if somebody's getting big for their breeches at a party
is to say, tell me what you think of this
stole is to say you still have lost possession of yourself?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
You know it's funny, man.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That makes that makes me think I meant to bring
this up earlier. The idea of owning oneself or a
self own is typically negative. It sort of means you
like played yourself or you I use it a lot
in playing Mario Kart, where if you hit yourself with
your own green shell that is self.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Own, or have an own goal when they bounce. Oh
he bouncing. We're bouncing into a question that we've been
teasing for a moment. Now, is this story actually true? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And I maybe tipped my hand a little bit where
I fall on the issue. It does feel it does
have big prank vibes to it or just kind of.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Again, Athens is a kooky place, even as back far
back as this hit this history, So this idea of
sort of like a quirky bit of a almost like
a piece of satire. Right, So we do love a story,
as do the people of Athens. The story of the
tree that owns Itself is widely known, at least in
the area, and is almost presented as fact. You know
(28:51):
about the tree that owns itself? There, it is right there.
It's like a bit of a tourist attraction. However, only
one person, the anonymous author of the article in the
Athens Banner Herald, I believe deeded to itself. He's the
only one who ever apparently saw the deed to the tree,
(29:11):
or claimed to claim to have seen that bit of paperwork,
which is odd. And certainly if it isn't filed with
the county or in some way you know, acknowledged and
like the land records, then surely now this is going
to hold up in court.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Not to be a party pooper, but we'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So most writers acknowledge the deed has either been lost
or no longer exists, which I guess is the same
as being lost. Maybe it was it was burned or something,
you know, flushed shredded, if it ever did in the
first place.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, that's the badger the bag, that's the pickle of it.
Because we're we're not gonna doct anybody, but a good
friend of ours, good friend of the show, makes a
living hunting down old deeds and this.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Lot of history in them, in them.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Papers, a lot of weird names too.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, we love it when Frank sends us a screenshot
of some weird and take. Just no, it didn't docks
them too hard, unless you worry he's doing anybody. Whatever
he sends us, he redacts, he.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Does, he does.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Information, but sometimes there's some cookie names that he comes across.
And some of these deeds are so old that they
haven't even been scanned into digital resources or into digital
you know, searchable libraries. So a lot of times for
super old stuff, our buddy will have to go to
you know, a physical courthouse and like dig through these archives.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
And find, you know, an old scroll of parchment that's
I love always said part.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Of it I love it and we should keep it,
and I'm astly going to say it that way from
this day. Hence, this is where a thing like this
where it to existed, which should should have been filed right.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Right right, unless there was a courthouse fire or something.
But regardless, even if you find the deed, it would
not have legal grav toss. They wouldn't have legal bearing
because under common law or what we just say, let's
just say it as commonly understood law. To be a
(31:17):
recipient of a piece of property in the United States,
one must have the legal capacity to receive such property.
It has to be delivered to and accepted by the recipient.
This is impossible for a tree to do at present.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Oh, I should have talked to that doctor Seusky what's
his name. He speaks for the trees. He had a axe.
He could have been their interpreted because he speaks for
the trees and he could have represented them in the
court of law.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, he's like doctor Doolittle for plants. Anyway, we do
know Jackson. Here's where it gets even more murky. So
we do know that Colonel Willie Jackson did live near
the White Oak. We can prove that he lived there
for at least four years when he was a young
(32:07):
man and he was married, because we know he was
living there with his wife, but he had actually not
grown up there. He grew up nearby in Jefferson County.
So it is diplomatically put extremely unlikely that he would
have any cherished child who are memories of the oak
because he simply was not there.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, that would typically be reserved for a stately tree
that might have grown in the backyard or at the
very least in a nearby, you know, meadow from a
young kid, because he is not going to be wandering
off to other counties as.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
A young lad. So this wouldn't hold up in court.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But the question then becomes, where is the benefit of
like really openly challenging a lot of this stuff? Oh yeah,
it would be kind of a move, a grinch like move, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, be so means spirited. Everybody would be confused and
irritated by you, including the judge. By the way, if
it went to if it went to that level, if
you go to Athens Clark County today, you'll see that
they confirmed the tree is in what they call the
right of way and is quote accepted for care by
(33:22):
municipal authorities. So to your earlier questional the tree clean
sun of Tree, the tree is taken care of by
the local city and county government. And if you go
to the adjacent property there you'll see everybody is kind
(33:43):
of pitched in. They're stewards who help take care of
the tree that owns itself. I want to give a
weird specific shout out to something called the Athens Junior
Ladies Garden Club. They're the primary advocate of the tree.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
They tend to its needs and make sure it's trimmed
and watered and all that there are lacks. They are indeed,
they speak for the tree that owns itself. And they also,
you know, tracked down another small tree that was grown
from an acorn taken from the original tree, and that
was what led to if I'm not mistaken, then the
(34:21):
son of tree.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Right. Yeah, So even before the original tree that owns
itself passed away, the local government said, you know what,
is this technically legal? Who cares? We all love trees.
And this carried on after the death of the original tree,
(34:45):
which is sometimes called the Jackson Oak. As we sat
up in the beginning on October ninth, nineteen forty two.
This tree, which was estimated to be two hundred to
four hundred years old. We need some dendo chronology to
verify this, which is the study of tree rings. The
rumor has it, isn't it a Dell Song study of
(35:10):
tree rings? Rumor has it? I'm sure it is, and
her other off her album Dendo Chronology. So yeah, So
the tree was not hewn down by humans. It fell
as a result of a windstorm, or it may have
already died and its roots were routing. And as you said,
(35:30):
our friends at the Junior Ladies Garden Club, about four
years later they tracked down a smaller tree, kind of
a sapling status tree that was grown from an acorn
taken from the original tree. And then they teamed up
with a boffin at the College of Agriculture, Yeah, real aghead,
(35:53):
and a tree aficionado named Roy Bowden, and.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
This little tree, little sap as you said, Ben, was
transplanted to the location of the original tree that owned itself.
It's for bear. A couple months later, there was a
ceremony hell featuring the mayor of Athens at the time,
Robert L. McWhorter, and to commemorate the occasion. They established
a new plaque that is there to this day.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
You want to read that one for us man, Absolutely,
the tree that owns itself And this is in the
same weird formatting that we talked about earlier. The lines
are odds, right, it must they must be writing it
in a well, in a way that suits the designer
of the Yeah, I don't like we have to write
into the cube versus that's probably true. Yeah, yeah, the
tree that owns itself Quercus alba, deeded to itself by
(36:44):
Colonel William H. Jackson circa eighteen thirty two. This sciad
of the original tree was planted by the Junior Ladies
Garden Club in nineteen forty six. National Register of Historic
Places nineteen seventy five, Athens Historical Landmark nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Now we've got landmark status, historical landmark status that people
are now referring to this, I mean people in the
know as the sun of the tree that owns itself,
assuming and believing the tale that it is. In fact,
I think this is the part that likely is true.
The original trees air. So now you can take a tour.
(37:26):
There's a couple of fun self guided tours that you
can take in Athens. The Athens Clark County Welcome Center
will hook you up with the literature to do that.
You might also see there's a famous train trestle, The
Murmur Trestle has something to do with ra Em again.
And then there's also like an Athens Music Walk of Fame,
(37:46):
much like the Hollywood Walk of Fame, with like plaques
of different musical luminaries from there. It's really really rich
in its history and its culture and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I want to go back. We should call Christopher Osiota,
so I want to go hang out there. Back out.
Also catch up with Eric about Force Ghost. Yeah that's
a band, right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, and we're actually doing a new music project together
we have started messing with and that's part of the
reason I've been going there a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
So it's been a lot of fun, dope. And we
also want to note folks that while there is one
official the sun of the tree that owns itself, a
lot of people took acorns from the original tree and
from its air and planted their.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Own such as trees. Right, so cool, super cool. Yeah,
I love the idea. Of like an heirloom thing, right,
that's sort of what that means. I think if you
take seeds from a tomato or a plant and then
you replant them, that becomes.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Like an heirloom version.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, and that's so neat the way that stuff can
again be part of history.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Did you know that for a few decades back, or
this continues now for quite some time, especially in the
southern US, there have been people who, of their own
volition did deep forensic food way research to recover lost
(39:09):
types of rice for tomatoes. Carol, how does that work?
It's an episode for a New Day Science and a
lot of legwork, a lot of detective stuff. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts about this, folks. We do
want to shout out little town in Alabama where another
(39:33):
tree owns itself. And I'm not rolling my eyes too
hard here. I think it's really cool that the local
government said technically no, legally nah, but everybody be cool.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
This is why we can't have nice things, or if
you live in Athletes, Georgia, why we can have nice
things because people are just cool.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So here's a question as we end for you, Max
and all our fellow ridiculous historians. Gentlemen, if you could
give one non human, non animal thing or object the
right to own itself, what would it be? Now? It
could be a plant. It could also be an inanimate
(40:17):
object that you love.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You said it in the top bend couch, the couch,
this couch, this couch.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Here, ye, here, I know Christian Brown hereby here by? Uh?
What emancipates my couch?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
That way they can press charges against jd Vance when
he gets up to Canery.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Oh, here we go, Uh all right, Max? What about you? Oh?
In my car is Sylvia? There you go? Okay, I
love a car with the name. Okay, first chair Sylvia. That's, however,
refer to her.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
As long as it's fully paid off, Max, Okay, until
that point belongs to the bank.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I ran into Sylvia back. We did our research for
the waffle House episode, which is on the way right, folks,
you're gonna larn a lot about Waffle Alie, and we
can't wait to be there with you. We also can't
wait too, as Noel so beautifully teased explore the strange
story of the Tayland All murders with our research associate
(41:21):
Dylan in the meantime, big big thanks to you for
tuning in. Big thanks to our super producer Max Williams
and all our friends in Athens, Georgia or in Athens, Tennessee,
or in Athens, Greece, or in Athens, Ohio or in Athens, Ohio.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Which is also a college town. I believe I went
there once. Yeah, and tease thanks to Christoph Fraciotas. We
would love to come kick it with you there in Athens,
Georgia and East Jeff Coats both here in spirit, Alex
Williams who composed our theme.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance, as well as a J
Bahamas Jacobs, and our own guy that owns himself pretty often,
pretty regularly in a Mario Kart sense, that is Jonathan
Strickland Ak the Quiztor. We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to
(00:27):
the show, fellow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so
much for tuning in. Let's hear it for our super producer,
mister Max Williams. WHOA, I am secretly a tree in disguise.
Speaker 2 (00:42):
What a good disguise it is to sway in the breeze.
Speaker 1 (00:47):
And that's mister Noel Brown. Let's give it up for him.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
I'm more of a stump kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
Oh, don't do it. I can see you as a willow,
not a weepy one. From time to time. I've been
known to weep. Is you Ben by the way, Yes, yeah,
Ben Bullen from earlier today, Folks, we wanted to let
you know that we love trees and we hope that
(01:14):
isn't a hot take. Could I tell you, guys a
quick little anecdote, and this is something that's been on
my mind. A treetail, a tree tail? Yes, okay, So
you know, Max, I don't know if you're aware of this.
You probably are because I'm insufferable, but uh, Noel, you're
well aware that I have been in a long term
(01:35):
relationship with a murder of crows.
Speaker 2 (01:38):
Oh I thought you were going to say, with a
field of widows a growth murderer. So here's I mean,
I am familiar with this devil's pact you've made with
these corvids.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Yes, yeah, oh corvid it's nice. We got a whistle
and everything. So, uh, local scoop here on the ground
is that they are these awesome trees, these awesome, magnificent
trees right in my area, and I befriended crows who
lived in those trees. However, the people who owned those
(02:13):
trees recently did some tree cutting work. They didn't cut
down the whole tree, they didn't stump it, but they
cut off the branches of these trees for safety and
power lines and stuff. They look what they've done to
our boy. Yeah, they mutilated it. And this scared away
our local murder of crows. However, as we were coming
(02:38):
into record today, Noel, the crows have returned and they
left me a thing shiny.
Speaker 2 (02:48):
Objects perchance it's I mean it's object.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
It's a button they found and they were like humans, right,
our favorite human from earlier, that guy is human, so
clearly he likes buttons.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Also, I mean, it's very clear that he's missing a
key button on his signature blazer.
Speaker 1 (03:13):
That's what I'm sure, that's their thought process.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
They clocked it. They're thoughtful creatures.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
They're thoughtful and avengeful, and they're the best friends you
can have or the worst enemy, similar to like the mafia.
Speaker 2 (03:26):
And that's because much like the Mafia, the crows remember.
Speaker 1 (03:30):
The Crows remember. And so why are we telling you
this anecdote, folks, fellow ridiculous historians. It's because of this.
This is what occurred to us watching our tree friends
get dismembered. It wouldn't have happened if that tree owned itself.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
Wait a minute, I don't understand now, I'm kidding, I'm
being coy.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
I donder. Actually that's not sure.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
I don't fully understand the logistics of it. We are,
in fact talking about a very particular tree, a legendary
located in our fair state of Georgia, in nearby Athens,
Georgia of University and football and of course music fame,
the University of Georgia Go Dogs is there. It's where
bands like R. E. M. And the B fifty two's
(04:15):
and more recently like the Elephant six collective Olivia Trimmer
control nutrient hotel, our buddy Ben Hackett. He lives there,
and he's big, he's legendary in his own right, and
he also owns himself, which makes sense from a human perspective.
We have agency as humans. Our lives are our own.
But how does that work for a tree? And is
(04:37):
a tree a living thing in this context or is
it like an inanimate object like can a couch own itself?
Speaker 1 (04:43):
Yeah, that's a great question, Noel, And I'm going to
lean on you for part of this because you've spent
more time in Athens, Georgia than I have. You know,
you're well acquainted with the music, seeing you move in
and out. We also want to give a shout out
to our pal Christopher Hasiotis, who is here in spirit.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Could I bury the lead and work in reverse and
never get to the thing. There's a tree there in
Athens that owns itself.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I'm just making sure.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
I don't know if I dropped that particular breadcrumb yet,
so I did things a little out of order. But yes, indeed,
that is the question here. How does this tree actually
own itself?
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Is it just the stuff of legend?
Speaker 2 (05:23):
If it were to be true, how is it possible
We're going to get right into this little known legend
of the tree that owns itself, the story, whether true
or a tall tale, of the tree that owns itself.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
There in Athens, Georgia. All right, here's this story, and
we want to shout out all of our fellow ridiculous
historians who have ever seen a tree that we really loved.
If you go to Athens, Georgia, over at the corner
(05:57):
of South Finley and Deering Street, you will see a
white oak. Or get this man, the technical name for
it quirkus alba.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It's quirky. Athens is quirky. Keep Athens weird, y'all.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
So quirkus alba. This white oak, somehow, apparently, according to
the lore, has legal ownership of itself and all of
the land within eight feet of its base.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
Now you know, this makes me think of immediately this
idea of like wealthy people dating their you know, as
their estates to their beloved pet or something like that.
Speaker 1 (06:34):
Wasn't there a televangelist who deeded stuff to their dog.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
That seems like something one of them might do. The
original tree in question here is thought to have begun
its lifespan, which, as we know, for trees can be
quite long in the mid sixteenth and late eighteenth century,
so the tree in question, the original tree in question,
is thought to have started its tree life, which as
we know, can be quite long. And Ben, I'm sure
(07:01):
that you're on the same page with me about this.
One thing I think we dig about trees is this
idea of there being a living history. You know, it's
this idea of just picturing what it was like all
around it, you know, lo those many years ago, when
it was just a little sapling. It was thought to
have begun its life in the mid sixteenth to late
eighteenth century, but was felled in nineteen forty two.
Speaker 1 (07:24):
Yeah. Yeah. However, as we'll see here a bit of
a spoiler, folks, a new tree was grown from one
of its acorns and then planted in the same location.
This current tree, as well fined, is sometimes referred to
as the sun of the tree that owns itself, which
feels like such a ful horror movie.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Hammer hammer horror horror, exactly like Brida Frankenstei And again,
so Athens, they're so quirky over there. And like I
was saying earlier, trees do tend to have quite long
lifespans along with their descendants, because every one of those
little acorns that get dropped has the potential to be carried,
you know, hither and yon and start a whole new tree.
Speaker 1 (08:07):
Every acorn can become a great oak, just like you folks.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
I know, isn't that like one of those like you're
doing great kind of cat hanging from the off of
a tree posters you'd see in like choir class when
you're in.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
School, or like Andre three thousand said in the recent
Rock and Roll Hall of Fame induction for Outcast, it
starts in little rooms.
Speaker 2 (08:28):
There you go. Yeah, we can relate to that. We've
started in little rooms too. Remember the little room we
used to podcast in with boarded up windows.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
Where podcasts begun.
Speaker 2 (08:39):
Heck, to this day, a lot of podcasts happen in
the littlest of rooms aka closets. And to give some
lifespan stats, a lot of these types of trees can
live up to four hundred and fifty years. So it
is a safe bet that the first tree had been
in that spot for quite a very long time, way
before there was any need for legal loopholes.
Speaker 1 (08:57):
And Shenanigan ring Oo mentioned that part. Yes, So for
anybody who is not familiar, Yes, folks. Here in the
United States and indeed the world overall, it is unusual
for a tree to quote own itself. Trees are considered
like pretty much all other plant life, meaning they're not
(09:20):
typically recognized as legal entities with agency in the United States. Instead,
they're considered part and parcel of the land itself. So,
for instance, if like Max Nol and I decide to
buy a few acres in Tennessee as we build our
fallout bunker, our purchase is not just going to include
(09:43):
the actual surface, but the land beneath it, as well
as all of the plants and trees growing on it.
They don't get a say no, it's sort of a
packaged deal. Can we go in on this parcel of
land with our buddy, the Tennessee pal Yeah, yeah, of
course we'll include Dylan. Yes, yes, we must.
Speaker 2 (10:02):
We're going to start our fallout doomsday bunker slash commune,
you know, for the end times.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Yeah, we should have started a year ago. That was
the best time, but the second best time is today.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
The second best time is always the present. There's no
second best better time than the present.
Speaker 1 (10:20):
There we go so why is this story different. Well,
we looked into it, and as far as we can tell,
the earliest primary source confirmed record of this tale dates
back to a front page article in the Athens Weekly
(10:40):
Banner August twelfth, eighteen ninety, written by someone will never know,
an anonymous author. So someone just posted as anon, they're
in the Weekly Banner.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Which is just the most wholesome name for a small
town newspaper.
Speaker 1 (10:57):
If I might say, I would say my favorite, my
favorite wholesome local newspaper name is picka yune. I don't
know what's good.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
I also liked the plane dealer is another fun one,
and I think I like picka yun because it's just
such an unusual specific word. Anyway, So, according to this
anonymous author, who may have had a horse in the race,
here the tree what the tree in question was on
the property of a guy named Colonel William Henry Jackson.
(11:32):
And William Henry Jackson was a real person, is kind
of murky and was super duper duper connected. He was
the son of James Jackson, a Revolutionary War soldier who
later went on to become a congressman and then a senator.
And in the you know typical Southern trajectory of politics.
Speaker 1 (11:54):
He then became the governor. Yeah, as you do. And
so our old Colonel Willie was also the brother of
another congressman. I need help on this name, Jebez Young Jackson,
jab e Z. I haven't met a Jebez.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
In real haven'ts And in my mind I want to
make the jay a soft j and how to be
a Jabez?
Speaker 1 (12:18):
Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
It just sounds like fun. It could go either way.
Jebez is another perfectly good version. And Colonel William Willy
Willy boy I was also the father of another James Jackson,
who himself would have quite the meteoric rise in politics.
He became a congressman and eventually the chief Justice of
George's Supreme Court.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Yeah, these things we can prove. However, these things we
can prove not necessarily the providence of the tree. But
to understand the story this pitch from the Athens Weekly banner,
we got to look a little closer into Colonel Willie.
So Colonel Willie's sounds like a euphemism.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Right, sounds like something that what Big Jumbo would have said.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Now, who was that?
Speaker 2 (13:06):
Who was who was the big jumbo guy Lyndon Johnson,
Lyndon B. Johnson President, his old fella as big Jumbo.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's jugo. And would he have been
it was? It was definitely not Dumbo, You're right, it
was Jumbo. Would he have if he had not become
a politician or a president? Would Lyndon Johnson just have
been some creepy guy in his local town? So I
had a name for his Australia. Absolutely, absolutely he was.
(13:37):
He was a character consistent. So all right, here's the thing, folks.
We know that Colonel Willie was allegedly apparently a professor
at Uga. He was sometimes referred to as doctor Jackson
in reporting of the day, but we haven't proved that yet.
We have reached out to the University of Georgia who
(14:00):
asked them if they can verify any sort of tenure
or time spent teaching students. So we'll catch you up
when when we hear back. You know, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (14:11):
I have been actually going to Athens a great deal
lately of a good friend of mine in front of
the show, Eric Kinlaw recently moved there and I.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Lived there years ago.
Speaker 2 (14:23):
My kid went to school there for some years, and
I also grew up going to shows there, so it
is a really near and dear place to me. But
there's a lot of little legendary things there in Athens
that are connected to history, that are connected to the university,
and that are connected.
Speaker 1 (14:36):
To music lore.
Speaker 2 (14:37):
One of which was this really cool little soul food
restaurant called Weaver Deese, whose motto to this day it's
on their handwritten little sign is Automatic for the People,
which is of course the title of one of the
most popular and famous RAM albums. And I all the
time I've spent there, I only just when Eric moved there,
(14:58):
went and ate there, and it was phenomenal. Had a
Meeting three situation, the dude that runs it like the
guy in the Kitchen Classic, you know, southern soul food
Meeting three type joint.
Speaker 1 (15:07):
And then I just found out a week or so
ago that it closed.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
It is but at least I got to eat there once,
but legendary and sad that it went away.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
So there are a lot of local legends in Athens
because it is such a phenomenal college town. You know,
there's the double barreled cannon, the university arch arsh, yeah,
and the tree that owns itself now is part of
this Well, another thing we can't prove about our buddy
Willie Jackson is the nature of his military service, nor
(15:40):
any publicly available records of how he attained the rank
of colonel.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
Oh, Ben, you know it's another kind of facet of
Southern gentry. Your calling yourself the colonel. Well, of course, yeah,
you don't have to actually have obtained a rank of
colonel militarily speaking to go by the colonel, wouldn't you agree?
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Yeah, they used to call me. They used to call
me colonel Angus. Don't we call your pops the colonel
sometimes he is?
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Actually yeah, okay, he did attain the rank, so he
came by it honestly. But it's true we do think
of colonel as being somewhat of a Southern gentlemanly nicknames
And that's.
Speaker 1 (16:23):
Isn't that weird how that happens in specifically the Southeastern
United States, not just with military rank, but with religious rank,
Like there will be people who call themselves Bishop so
and so, but you're not Catholic. I don't know. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
It's also like the murkiness of the term cousin when
it gets thrown around a lot as well, but that's
not just the same thing.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
So what we do know is that our boy will
will H.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
Jackson aka Colonel Willie, who definitely had big Willie style,
which I only just recently realized is somewhat of a euphemism.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
In its own right.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Even though will Smith didn't need a cuss in his
radit cell records, he did love a good innuendo.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Yeah it's okay, man. It took me forever to figure
out the main ingredient in soy sauce is indeed soy.
It's true. Yeah, and you know, will goody sauce, most
of it's weak.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
Now that's true. You know what I love is a
good mushroom soy sauce. I have one that I've been using.
And will Smith might might argue that he had had
no ill intent with that title, and then it was
entirely clean.
Speaker 1 (17:32):
He had a will intent. I think you did so.
William H.
Speaker 2 (17:35):
Jackson did own the property on the opposite side of
Deering Street that was adjacent to that tree. The plot
included the address two twenty six Deering Street as it
stands today, and in the early nineteenth century, it was
at that point just a lot with the designation of
number fourteen. The tree is located on a portion of
(17:58):
what had been lot number fifteen.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Yeah yeah, so there was proximity, right, And Colonel Willie
is living in his area with his wife Mildred, and
eventually along with a character named Ja Cobb. Don't memorize
the name because he never shows up again. Along with
(18:21):
this guy, they sold their property collectively. There's a lot
to a dude named doctor Malthus Ward, doctor Malthus. He
sounds like a necromancer.
Speaker 2 (18:32):
He does a little Malthusian perhaps, Yeah yeah, yeah, that
was in.
Speaker 1 (18:36):
Eighteen thirty two, yeah, yeah, yeah, And this is the
same year that is cited on a local plaque as
being the date the tree got deeded to itself. If
you go to the Clark County real estate records, you'll
see there is no indication of when or from whom
(18:58):
Colonel Willie originally purchased the property. Of course, this helps
inform the legend.
Speaker 2 (19:04):
Right.
Speaker 1 (19:04):
So, according to the story, our buddy will really loved
this frickin' tree. If you can, we do, let's give
it to you, you know, can you give us a
real like Colonel Angus seen shoeing voice get get your
Juli stars, get your jul up together and let's h
(19:25):
can we share this clip from the Athens Weekly banner.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
Giving me the vapors there ben talking about Colonel Ankus.
Colonel Jackson had watched the tree grow from his childhood
and grew to love it almost as he would a human.
It's luxuriant foliage and sturdy limbs that often protected him
from the heavy rains. I'm mixing it up here a bit,
but I know you're nill out and out of its
(19:52):
highest branches. He had many a time gotten the eggs.
Speaker 1 (19:56):
Of the feathered songstess.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
He watched it growth, and when on reaching a rap
old age, he saw the tree standing and it's magnificent propultions.
And now I'm doing a little bit of a British thing.
I'm gonna coming back and coming back. He was pined
to think that after his death it would fall into
the hands of them what might destroy it.
Speaker 1 (20:18):
I added, I liked it, so the God right, so
testify there So, according to this article, our boy, due
to his close childhood association with this white oak or
Quercus alba, he he deeds the tree ownership of itself
(20:41):
and the surrounding land, and he does it in an
attempt to ensure that no one, including future family members,
will ever be able to knock it down.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Well, here's the question, and we might get into this,
We are going to get into this, the legal loophole
of it all. But it's like, if you don't leave
your property to an air, and you don't have an air,
what happens to it?
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Does it just like.
Speaker 2 (21:12):
Go to the county, like if there's no one there
to keep it up or because obviously this would also
require some dispensation or footnote for upkeep right, like if
the tree owns itself, the tree can't trim itself or
take care of the land around it. But yeah, maybe
back to my original question, what does happen if, like
I guess, is it then sold off? It's bitted on?
(21:34):
Like I guess, I don't know the details of what
happens when there is no air to pass property onto.
Speaker 1 (21:41):
Yeah, it's a little outside our scope because it varies
from country to country and indeed from state to state.
There are actually online just for a tangent here, there
are websites you can check that will tell you if
you are the rightful biological inheritor of the things. So
(22:04):
usually it goes to the closest living relative before the
state or big government takes possession. That can't happen if
that doesn't end up working out like you said, with
the closest you know, living relatives. And there's a term
here that is getting used that it's new to me
in in instasy, intestacy, intestacy. Yes, and the process, the
(22:29):
legal process you're talking about of transferring it to this.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Day is called escheatment. We're learning so many new, very
esoteric legalese words today.
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Yes, just like ja copy. They may not come up again.
But let's see if we can give ourselves bonus points
for using those terms in cheatment and instensasy, in testasy, intestacy.
Speaker 2 (22:58):
In cheatment, okay, ineste the enn.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
If we can, if we can use those phrases, Max,
I need you in on this. If we can use
those phrases again organically like a tree by the end
of this episode, we give ourselves eight hundred and twenty
to eight hundred and thirty two bonus points.
Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah. I don't know if it's possible, Ben, it's so specific,
but hey, I'm on board.
Speaker 1 (23:24):
Let's see if it can happen. Look forward to it.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I'm willing to play your redeer reindeer games.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
I love it. And I'm still mad at Matt for
nagging me on a recent episode of stuff they don't
want you to know what. I was like, I'll play
your reindeer games. He's like, no, these are reindeer games too.
Speaker 2 (23:42):
Well, I mean, maybe he was just dead serious, you know.
Speaker 1 (23:44):
Yeah, he's a serious guy, and please do check out
stuff they don't want you to know. You'll if you
dig our show, you'll hopefully love that show. I usually
say that NOL, but it's weird because we host that
and create that show as well.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Sure, yeah, but I think there's some truth to that.
If you dig this, you'll probably dig that. And actually,
the next episode we're about to record for Ridiculous History
very much would be right at home on stuff they
don't want you to know. We're talking to a little
a little bit of a true crime murder mystery, which
is a little out out of the scope of what
we usually do here, So look forward to that. I
also involve something that's been in the news lately, Tail
and all, yeah.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
Yeah, it's in the zeitgeist now. If you go to Athens,
according to the story which and we could confirm this,
you'll see this idea of deating a tree legal ownership
of itself took place somewhere between eighteen twenty and eighteen
thirty two. How do we know that there is a
(24:41):
commemorative plaque on the tree's retaining wall that claims had
attained an independence in eighteen thirty two? If I could
chew a bit of scenery and sip a jewlup on
this one, we'll give you the text. M Oh, that's mean, Julip.
I'm kidding. It's iced coffee. But there we go. Four
(25:01):
And in consideration, great little Bell, this tree and the
great desire have for its protection fall time a colay,
entire possession all itself and old land within eight feet
of this tree roll side William heh Jackson h really.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Odd to the way the lines are broken up in
this one.
Speaker 1 (25:30):
It's just funny.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
We got four and in consideration and then line two
of the Great Love I bear line three this tree
and the Great's almost like it reads like a poem,
and it is poetry, especially the way you recited it.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Ben.
Speaker 2 (25:41):
So per that article, the actual deed in question uses
the following language.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
I W. H.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Jackson of the County of Clark in the Stathens Clark
County of the one part, and the oak Tree of
the County of Clark of the other part.
Speaker 1 (25:57):
Witness, I witness if that's the said W. H.
Speaker 2 (26:02):
Jackson for and in consideration of the great affection which
she bears said tree, as stated in the Blackard, and
his great desire to see it protected, has conveyed and
by these presidents do convey unto the said oak tree
entire possession of itself and of all land within eight
feet of it on all sides or.
Speaker 1 (26:22):
Two point four meters. Right. Yeah, this is weird, Okay,
So this is a thing that confused us. And just
to be clear if this is an actual deed, what
he's saying is that when he says Clark County Clerk
of the one part, he's talking about one party and
a negotiation, and he is the other part, Colonel Willie.
(26:47):
So this art, this all comes to us from Athens
Weekly Banner, and it was again written anonymously decades after
this purported dedication back in the eighteen in eighteen thirty two.
Speaker 2 (27:02):
I love this idea of the oak tree having residency
in Clark County. Like I just all of this reads
like an elaborate prank.
Speaker 1 (27:09):
Also, I love the Southern idea to this field. Okay,
so we discover all sorts of weird turns of phrases
that we make up here. Seahorse teeth shut straight, seahorse teeth,
shut your wet mouth, et cetera. One thing that I
think would be really great for us to whip out
(27:31):
if somebody's getting big for their breeches at a party
is to say, tell me what you think of this
stole is to say you still have lost possession of yourself?
Speaker 2 (27:41):
Oh yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:42):
You know it's funny, man.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
That makes that makes me think I meant to bring
this up earlier. The idea of owning oneself or a
self own is typically negative. It sort of means you
like played yourself or you I use it a lot
in playing Mario Kart, where if you hit yourself with
your own green shell that is self.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
Own, or have an own goal when they bounce. Oh
he bouncing. We're bouncing into a question that we've been
teasing for a moment. Now, is this story actually true? Yeah?
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And I maybe tipped my hand a little bit where
I fall on the issue. It does feel it does
have big prank vibes to it or just kind of.
Speaker 1 (28:30):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (28:30):
Again, Athens is a kooky place, even as back far
back as this hit this history, So this idea of
sort of like a quirky bit of a almost like
a piece of satire. Right, So we do love a story,
as do the people of Athens. The story of the
tree that owns Itself is widely known, at least in
the area, and is almost presented as fact. You know
(28:51):
about the tree that owns itself? There, it is right there.
It's like a bit of a tourist attraction. However, only
one person, the anonymous author of the article in the
Athens Banner Herald, I believe deeded to itself. He's the
only one who ever apparently saw the deed to the tree,
(29:11):
or claimed to claim to have seen that bit of paperwork,
which is odd. And certainly if it isn't filed with
the county or in some way you know, acknowledged and
like the land records, then surely now this is going
to hold up in court.
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Not to be a party pooper, but we'll get to that.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
So most writers acknowledge the deed has either been lost
or no longer exists, which I guess is the same
as being lost. Maybe it was it was burned or something,
you know, flushed shredded, if it ever did in the
first place.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, that's the badger the bag, that's the pickle of it.
Because we're we're not gonna doct anybody, but a good
friend of ours, good friend of the show, makes a
living hunting down old deeds and this.
Speaker 2 (29:58):
Lot of history in them, in them.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
Papers, a lot of weird names too.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, we love it when Frank sends us a screenshot
of some weird and take. Just no, it didn't docks
them too hard, unless you worry he's doing anybody. Whatever
he sends us, he redacts, he.
Speaker 1 (30:13):
Does, he does.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Information, but sometimes there's some cookie names that he comes across.
And some of these deeds are so old that they
haven't even been scanned into digital resources or into digital
you know, searchable libraries. So a lot of times for
super old stuff, our buddy will have to go to
you know, a physical courthouse and like dig through these archives.
Speaker 1 (30:39):
And find, you know, an old scroll of parchment that's
I love always said part.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
Of it I love it and we should keep it,
and I'm astly going to say it that way from
this day. Hence, this is where a thing like this
where it to existed, which should should have been filed right.
Speaker 1 (30:55):
Right right, unless there was a courthouse fire or something.
But regardless, even if you find the deed, it would
not have legal grav toss. They wouldn't have legal bearing
because under common law or what we just say, let's
just say it as commonly understood law. To be a
(31:17):
recipient of a piece of property in the United States,
one must have the legal capacity to receive such property.
It has to be delivered to and accepted by the recipient.
This is impossible for a tree to do at present.
Speaker 2 (31:35):
Oh, I should have talked to that doctor Seusky what's
his name. He speaks for the trees. He had a axe.
He could have been their interpreted because he speaks for
the trees and he could have represented them in the
court of law.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Yeah, he's like doctor Doolittle for plants. Anyway, we do
know Jackson. Here's where it gets even more murky. So
we do know that Colonel Willie Jackson did live near
the White Oak. We can prove that he lived there
for at least four years when he was a young
(32:07):
man and he was married, because we know he was
living there with his wife, but he had actually not
grown up there. He grew up nearby in Jefferson County.
So it is diplomatically put extremely unlikely that he would
have any cherished child who are memories of the oak
because he simply was not there.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
Yeah, that would typically be reserved for a stately tree
that might have grown in the backyard or at the
very least in a nearby, you know, meadow from a
young kid, because he is not going to be wandering
off to other counties as.
Speaker 1 (32:43):
A young lad. So this wouldn't hold up in court.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
But the question then becomes, where is the benefit of
like really openly challenging a lot of this stuff? Oh yeah,
it would be kind of a move, a grinch like move, absolutely.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, be so means spirited. Everybody would be confused and
irritated by you, including the judge. By the way, if
it went to if it went to that level, if
you go to Athens Clark County today, you'll see that
they confirmed the tree is in what they call the
right of way and is quote accepted for care by
(33:22):
municipal authorities. So to your earlier questional the tree clean
sun of Tree, the tree is taken care of by
the local city and county government. And if you go
to the adjacent property there you'll see everybody is kind
(33:43):
of pitched in. They're stewards who help take care of
the tree that owns itself. I want to give a
weird specific shout out to something called the Athens Junior
Ladies Garden Club. They're the primary advocate of the tree.
That's right.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
They tend to its needs and make sure it's trimmed
and watered and all that there are lacks. They are indeed,
they speak for the tree that owns itself. And they also,
you know, tracked down another small tree that was grown
from an acorn taken from the original tree, and that
was what led to if I'm not mistaken, then the
(34:21):
son of tree.
Speaker 1 (34:22):
Right. Yeah, So even before the original tree that owns
itself passed away, the local government said, you know what,
is this technically legal? Who cares? We all love trees.
And this carried on after the death of the original tree,
(34:45):
which is sometimes called the Jackson Oak. As we sat
up in the beginning on October ninth, nineteen forty two.
This tree, which was estimated to be two hundred to
four hundred years old. We need some dendo chronology to
verify this, which is the study of tree rings. The
rumor has it, isn't it a Dell Song study of
(35:10):
tree rings? Rumor has it? I'm sure it is, and
her other off her album Dendo Chronology. So yeah, So
the tree was not hewn down by humans. It fell
as a result of a windstorm, or it may have
already died and its roots were routing. And as you said,
(35:30):
our friends at the Junior Ladies Garden Club, about four
years later they tracked down a smaller tree, kind of
a sapling status tree that was grown from an acorn
taken from the original tree. And then they teamed up
with a boffin at the College of Agriculture, Yeah, real aghead,
(35:53):
and a tree aficionado named Roy Bowden, and.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
This little tree, little sap as you said, Ben, was
transplanted to the location of the original tree that owned itself.
It's for bear. A couple months later, there was a
ceremony hell featuring the mayor of Athens at the time,
Robert L. McWhorter, and to commemorate the occasion. They established
a new plaque that is there to this day.
Speaker 1 (36:21):
You want to read that one for us man, Absolutely,
the tree that owns itself And this is in the
same weird formatting that we talked about earlier. The lines
are odds, right, it must they must be writing it
in a well, in a way that suits the designer
of the Yeah, I don't like we have to write
into the cube versus that's probably true. Yeah, yeah, the
tree that owns itself Quercus alba, deeded to itself by
(36:44):
Colonel William H. Jackson circa eighteen thirty two. This sciad
of the original tree was planted by the Junior Ladies
Garden Club in nineteen forty six. National Register of Historic
Places nineteen seventy five, Athens Historical Landmark nineteen eighty eight.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Now we've got landmark status, historical landmark status that people
are now referring to this, I mean people in the
know as the sun of the tree that owns itself,
assuming and believing the tale that it is. In fact,
I think this is the part that likely is true.
The original trees air. So now you can take a tour.
(37:26):
There's a couple of fun self guided tours that you
can take in Athens. The Athens Clark County Welcome Center
will hook you up with the literature to do that.
You might also see there's a famous train trestle, The
Murmur Trestle has something to do with ra Em again.
And then there's also like an Athens Music Walk of Fame,
(37:46):
much like the Hollywood Walk of Fame, with like plaques
of different musical luminaries from there. It's really really rich
in its history and its culture and all that stuff.
Speaker 1 (37:55):
I want to go back. We should call Christopher Osiota,
so I want to go hang out there. Back out.
Also catch up with Eric about Force Ghost. Yeah that's
a band, right, Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yeah, and we're actually doing a new music project together
we have started messing with and that's part of the
reason I've been going there a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:12):
So it's been a lot of fun, dope. And we
also want to note folks that while there is one
official the sun of the tree that owns itself, a
lot of people took acorns from the original tree and
from its air and planted their.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Own such as trees. Right, so cool, super cool. Yeah,
I love the idea. Of like an heirloom thing, right,
that's sort of what that means. I think if you
take seeds from a tomato or a plant and then
you replant them, that becomes.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
Like an heirloom version.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
Yeah, and that's so neat the way that stuff can
again be part of history.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Did you know that for a few decades back, or
this continues now for quite some time, especially in the
southern US, there have been people who, of their own
volition did deep forensic food way research to recover lost
(39:09):
types of rice for tomatoes. Carol, how does that work?
It's an episode for a New Day Science and a
lot of legwork, a lot of detective stuff. We can't
wait to hear your thoughts about this, folks. We do
want to shout out little town in Alabama where another
(39:33):
tree owns itself. And I'm not rolling my eyes too
hard here. I think it's really cool that the local
government said technically no, legally nah, but everybody be cool.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
This is why we can't have nice things, or if
you live in Athletes, Georgia, why we can have nice
things because people are just cool.
Speaker 1 (39:55):
So here's a question as we end for you, Max
and all our fellow ridiculous historians. Gentlemen, if you could
give one non human, non animal thing or object the
right to own itself, what would it be? Now? It
could be a plant. It could also be an inanimate
(40:17):
object that you love.
Speaker 2 (40:19):
You said it in the top bend couch, the couch,
this couch, this couch.
Speaker 1 (40:25):
Here, ye, here, I know Christian Brown hereby here by? Uh?
What emancipates my couch?
Speaker 2 (40:36):
That way they can press charges against jd Vance when
he gets up to Canery.
Speaker 1 (40:41):
Oh, here we go, Uh all right, Max? What about you? Oh?
In my car is Sylvia? There you go? Okay, I
love a car with the name. Okay, first chair Sylvia. That's, however,
refer to her.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
As long as it's fully paid off, Max, Okay, until
that point belongs to the bank.
Speaker 1 (40:58):
I ran into Sylvia back. We did our research for
the waffle House episode, which is on the way right, folks,
you're gonna larn a lot about Waffle Alie, and we
can't wait to be there with you. We also can't
wait too, as Noel so beautifully teased explore the strange
story of the Tayland All murders with our research associate
(41:21):
Dylan in the meantime, big big thanks to you for
tuning in. Big thanks to our super producer Max Williams
and all our friends in Athens, Georgia or in Athens, Tennessee,
or in Athens, Greece, or in Athens, Ohio or in Athens, Ohio.
Speaker 2 (41:38):
Which is also a college town. I believe I went
there once. Yeah, and tease thanks to Christoph Fraciotas. We
would love to come kick it with you there in Athens,
Georgia and East Jeff Coats both here in spirit, Alex
Williams who composed our theme.
Speaker 1 (41:50):
Doctor Rachel Big Spinach Lance, as well as a J
Bahamas Jacobs, and our own guy that owns himself pretty often,
pretty regularly in a Mario Kart sense, that is Jonathan
Strickland Ak the Quiztor. We'll see you next time, folks.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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