Ann Swanson: Science of Yoga

What is yoga? How can it heal our bodies and minds? And where do we draw the line between spiritual models of the human condition and proven biology? In this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Ann Swanson, author of “Science Of Yoga: Understand the Anatomy and Physiology to Perfect your Practice” drops in for a chat about yoga research and the benefits of mindfulness.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of I
Heart Radios How Stuff Works. Hey, you welcome to Stuff
to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb and
I'm Joe McCormick. And on the day we're recording this,
I just got back from a vacation. While I was out, Robert,
you've been busy. You had a chat with quite a

(00:23):
few people. Uh. Yeah, I decided to log a few
interviews since I couldn't sit here and chat with you.
Uh and uh. I happened to be in a yoga
boot camp right now where I'm I'm I'm going three
days a week and doing yoga at a ridiculous hour
of the morning, like really really in intense sweaty yoga.
So my mom, I've been thinking about yoga a lot.
And I was like, well, if I can't talk to Joe,

(00:44):
I want to talk to somebody about yoga. So I
called up An Swanson of an Swanson Wellness. She's the
author of Science of Yoga, Understand the Anatomy and Physiology
to Perfect Your Practice, And so oh, yeah, this is good.
It's just me chatting with Anne about yoga, about about

(01:05):
you know, what yoga is, what yoga isn't what happens
when when science and spirituality come together and occasionally like
butt heads in yoga practices. And also what the research
is telling us and what it's not telling us about
yoga and its benefits to UH to our mind to
our body to the mind body connection. Awesome. Well, I

(01:26):
am really excited to hear this one. I'm sure the
listeners out there, you folks, are too, so maybe we
should dive right in. Let's get in that pose, hi,
and welcome to the show. Can can you just introduce
yourself to our audience here? Yeah? Absolutely, I'm so glad
to be here, Robert. My name is Ann Swanson and

(01:49):
I am a total science nerd and spiritual nerd. I'm
also a yoga therapist and meditation teacher by trade. I
have a Masters of Science in Yoga therapy. I'm an
I o T certified yoga therapist and I studied yoga
and India, where it is from. I am also a
science educator, so I teach people about the real science

(02:12):
supporting yoga. So I take out the wu factor of
yoga that intimidates a lot of people, but I still
strongly believe in respecting the rich tradition of this ancient
practice that has really stood the test of time. So
we're gonna be talking about about yoga in this uh,
this interview. So but before we get going, I thought, well,
I might ask you to just stop and uh and

(02:33):
just answer the question, especially for people or maybe not
that familiar with it, what is yoga? Yeah? Absolutely, because
I think it's not what most people think it is.
Most people see these billboards and covers of magazines and
they think it's been people doing pretzel like poses. But
really you don't have to be been inflexible to do yoga,

(02:56):
And the poses are only a small part of this practice.
So like that's the part that made it popular and famous,
but really there's so much more. So they're the poses
is the first part. But also we have breath work,
controlled breathing practices for a specific physiological results. We have

(03:17):
focused exercises that train your brain, meditation, and a rich
philosophical underpinning that you can study that integrates into your lifestyle.
So a lot of people describe yoga as an entire
lifestyle and the word yoga loosely means union, So really
it's about feeling connected to ourselves, united, to others and

(03:40):
the world and feeling this greater sense of like compassion. Ultimately,
these practices they build space in your mind and in
your body for compassion. Yeah, I feel like the sort
of the billboard idea of yoga like for for me, well,
when I first started doing yoga, that was something that
thankfully got to a road way pretty quickly when I

(04:01):
went to like a y m C A yoga class
and I got to experience it, you know, amid different
age age levels, different ability levels, different body types, and
and realized that, you know, the sort of stereotypical billboard
version of yoga was was not going to be what
I was going to experience absolutely, And I think one

(04:21):
of the things from a scientific perspective is that the
research on yoga is not on how to have a
bikini body or you know, how to been like a pretzel.
Really the researcher on yoga is on therapeutic population. So
people like older adults, people that are OBEs, with diabetes,

(04:45):
with heart disease, with breathing issues. These are the people
that are getting the most benefits from the practice of yoga,
and that's what the research is showing. So I hope
that the image of yoga starts to change because the
people that can benefit most, or regular folks with anxiety,
with stress, with the common issues that we deal with

(05:06):
modern day. And we're gonna get into some of the
details of this here in a bit better, but I
do want to go ahead and highlight your book. Uh,
you're the author of the two thousand nineteen books Science
of Yoga. Understand the anatomy and physiology to perfect your practice. Naturally,
there are a lot of yoga books out there. Is
anyone who's ever done a search on Amazon or or browsed,

(05:29):
you know, through the bookstore can attest to what sets
this one apart. Yeah, I would say that this is
not the typical how to yoga book. Really, I describe
it as a how it works yoga book. It's for
those curious people who are going to yoga classes and
constantly asking why why is this pose affecting my kidneys

(05:50):
or squeezing out my toxins? Or even why do I
feel so relaxed and leap so much better after class?
So I did bunkle a lot of those woom myth
um and also I worked with a world class illustration
team to not only tell you why, but to show
you why, Yeah, I have to say that the layout
and the illustrations in this book are are just really gorgeous.

(06:12):
It's it's very readable, very browsable, very consumable, and uh
and I love the way that it's divided up to
so at beginning with just sort of an overview of
human anatomy, you know, what are the different parts and
systems of the body before going into the austina is
the poses and discussing how those affect those systems. And
then you have this very robust Q and a section

(06:32):
at the end where you also engage in some myth
busting as well, but but also just you know, uh,
discuss some of the scientific studies out there and what
they're saying and what they're not saying in some cases. Yeah,
it's really great for visual learners, but also for those
kinesthetic learners, like people that are body based learners that
have to move, because you can look at the picture
and I think it invites you to actually move and

(06:55):
see is that the effect I'm feeling? Can I visualize
my muscle as my organs working in that pose? So
I hope it appeals to both of those audiences. Another
big difference between my book um in so many other
yoga books is that I'm not just talking about the
muscles and bones, so I am talking about all the

(07:18):
systems of the body and the benefits of yoga. So
from studying Western science myself, from doing premed course load
and then earning my Master of Science and yoga therapy,
I have basically had ten years of tedious notes in
my notebooks that was about how our body is affected

(07:38):
through these stress management practices. And I compile those to
be in the most simple format, digestible format of the
top benefits, and I cover all the systems of the body,
because those most profound benefits are to the cardiovascular system,
which is showing that we can reduce blood plot pressure

(07:59):
and and reverse heart disease with a yogic lifestyle, or
the immune system reducing inflammatory of markers called cytokine, which
are really important because most of the major killers that
we are society suffers from have to do with inflammation.
And then, oh my gosh, the effects on your brain
are so amazing. Weekre to have an entire show on

(08:22):
that itself. So I think it's important to emphasize how
yoga affects all the systems of the body, not just
that gross level. Yeah. I love how throughout the book
you keep coming back to the mind body connection. And
in some cases, uh, I mean we discussed the mind
body connection on this show a lot, because I mean,
I think that's been one of the the real the
real take comes from a lot of a lot of

(08:42):
research over the past of several decades, is that we
we realize that we're not just this this brain in
a body, were not this rider on a horse or
disintegrated system and uh and and all of our mental
processes are not just you know, dependent on things that
are bottled in there, but they're and you know, some poses,
some systems you're discussing, you you bring in the mind

(09:04):
portion of the equation. Sometimes in cases where I had
never thought about it before, you know, like, oh, I
tend to just focus on what this muscle is doing
or what this muscle seems to be doing, and I'm
not thinking about my mental state. Yeah. Absolutely, I mean
we are a integrated whole. And the thing about yoga
that makes it so magical, that makes it work so well,

(09:29):
is that it is a whole person approach to well being.
So therapeutic yoga looks at the entire person, and yes,
we move because this profound benefits to movement and exercise,
but we're also being aware of that movement, being mindful
and present, feeling the vibrations of your thirty seven truly
in cells are more in your body. You're you're acknowledging

(09:51):
that like life, that aliveness that you have. And I
think it's important that we acknowledge the whole person, the
emotional being, the the person that has stressors, the person
that has triggers and issues that are stored in their tissues.
So I think that's one of the great strengths of

(10:11):
yoga is that it has that whole person approach. I
wanted to touch on research for a second here. Up,
you signed a number of studies in the book, especially
you know, towards the end of the the Q and
A section UM, and then you also have you do
have a wonderful bit here too where you're talking about
how to how to tell um you have a a

(10:32):
particular study is reliable and discussing things like sample size
and in the use of a control group, some things
that you know, folks who are used to maybe teasing
apart a scientific study might be aware of, but others
not so much. Uh. In general, though, taking in all
of this this scientific research, how much research is there

(10:53):
into yoga, Well, you know, compared to pharmaceuticals, we don't
have the same lettl of funding, so that is an issue. However,
there has been an exponential growth of yoga research in
the past decade twenty years, so there is a decent
amount of research in certain categories. So areas like mental

(11:15):
health that would be the top area, along with chronic pain,
there's a lot of research. When we talk about yoga research,
we're also talking about meditation research, so that both of
those categories have a lot for depression anxiety PTSD along
with chronic pain. And another area of research that is

(11:35):
growing is for cardiovascular health and for other other chronic
pain conditions like arthritis and things that affect our daily
life with disabilities. So those areas are absolutely growing because
the resource was promising. And I do want to say
one reason I put that hierarchy of evidence in the

(11:58):
book is because I feel like there is a lack
of research literacy and the yoga community and the yoga
teacher community, but also enthusiastic yogi's and I don't think
that they want to be spreading um kind of woo
woo claims. I think they really want to be telling

(12:19):
people about the profound benefits. They just don't know how.
And so if we can start to be critical about
how we come about explaining the claims, the benefits, of
the warnings, of the yoga poses and practices that we
teaches yoga teachers, I think that's going to benefit the
practice overall, making it more accepted in the mainstream by

(12:42):
medical professionals, making it more accessible to those who can
really benefit the most. Because I mean when I'm in
a yoga class and they say a claim like this
is stimulating your kidneys, and they go on about that,
I'm in my head. I'm out of my body, and
I'm in my head, and I know that the doctor
and the nurse next to me are too. So if

(13:03):
we can, as yoga teachers and yoga professionals um actually
spread actual true claims, I think that's going to make
a big difference. It is fascinating to to to think
about yoga and the sort of opposing ideas that are
sometimes present there. You know, you have something that has
ancient roots and yet so much of it is actually

(13:23):
quite modern. A particular class or teacher might InVogue to
your point, both both modern health and science, but also
perhaps some elements of of Hinduism or New age spiritualism.
Uh so, I I guess it's it's kind of a
challenge to um to sort of balance all of that, right,
I mean to like, you know, you mentioned that you're,

(13:46):
you know, both a science nerd and a spiritualism nerd,
and like to to what extent do you sort of
have to have sort of two views of the yoga
and have to sort of switch from one to the
other during a practice. Yeah, I don't think we should
deny that yoga has its roots and India alongside Hinduism,
but they brilliant things about the practice can be adapted

(14:06):
to the modern day, to the culture, to the individual
and their beliefs. So for example, if you're not religious
at all, you can have a completely secular yoga practice
and have the profound benefits, have the brain changes and
the physiological health benefits. Or if you're religious, you can
incorporate prayer. Like I'm working with a Catholic woman right
now and she's doing her meditative practices with a rosary.

(14:30):
So I think it's okay to adapt it because ultimately,
if you are becoming a healthier and more peaceful and
connected human being, then that's a good thing for the world. However,
what does bother me Where I do have a bone
to pick is when teachers and yoga professionals don't fess
up to their modern adaptations of mixing these modalities. So,

(14:51):
for example, I mean, use my example of the kidneys.
I feel like I hear that a lot from teachers
that have a Chinese medicine base. They're saying, this is
affecting your kidneys. Well, scientifically, we can't claim that your
kidneys are being affected from some stretch or another. There's
no research supporting that. It doesn't even really make sense
with my understanding of anatomy and physiology. I mean, all

(15:13):
your organs are benefited from a yoga practice in general,
but we can't say that it's this particular pose versus
that particular poses affecting this organ um for the most part.
But I think that what could be done is, rather
than just saying this is affecting your kidneys, which is
confusing people, is say something like, well, according to Chinese medicine,

(15:34):
this would affect your kidney moor Ridian, Right, Like, then
you're actually describing the source of it so that the
people aren't thinking, well, actually, our modern day conception of
the kidney in the West is being affected. I think
that that's where it gets confusing and where it could
be a little clearer and why we should, as yoga
practitioners constantly ask why wait, why what do you mean? Oh,

(15:57):
you mean the kidney already and I got it. Yeah,
it's kind of like I guess, um, with with the body,
we're sometimes engaging with metaphorical or semi metaphorical sort of
spiritual models for what our bodies are doing and how
we're experiencing our our bodies and our and our mind.
Uh so you're saying, it's sort of a good idea

(16:18):
to be able to to state, like which model we're
dealing with for a particular claim, right, I think so
like where you got it from? Be able to know
where you where you got it from. That's just the
basic Also back to that scientific literacy is like where
did I hear that from? Can I look it up
and confirm? Because our memories will start to fade and
change things over time. Oh? Absolutely, Uh, you know, another

(16:41):
thing that comes up here. We've we we spoke with
a researcher on the show in the past who's a
focus was mindfulness, and they brought up how to study
meditation in some in some of these studies they were conducting,
you know, obviously they stripped away some of the more
spiritual aspects of the meditative practices. I think they were

(17:02):
looking at Tibetan models, and then they're stripping away any uh,
spiritualism from that. But then also even even removing the
word meditation from it, to referring it to something else
during the study so as not to you know, you know,
ignite any biases among the participants. But then they acknowledge that,

(17:24):
you know, is there is there a you know, at
risk there and removing some of the the ideas the
spiritual idea is not to you know, say that there
is you know, some sort of of magical practice going
on here. But but if we remove sort of the
spiritual fluff from the mechanics of something that it, perhaps
we're taking away something that helps it work. Do you

(17:45):
do you ever think that's that might be the case
with some of these yoga practices. You know, from my experience,
of reading research. A lot of yoga researchers are not
stripping away that essence, that that profound part of it.
So with meditation and with yoga, so I'll give it

(18:05):
as a two part answer. So with meditation, a lot
of the researchers themselves are meditators, so they want to
maintain the essence of the practice. So let me give
you an example. The there is a study that's my
favorite study of meditation of all time is at wake
Forest School of Medicine, and they had four different groups.

(18:27):
One group was a mindfulness meditation group. They were taught
mindfulness meditation by an experienced expert. They were taught the process,
a little bit of the history, and guided through a
traditional practice. Now and this particular research study was evaluating pain,

(18:48):
so they gave them a little shock in their leg
before they learned meditation, before they got the treatment, and
then after they were getting the treatment. Another group got
it plus seaboat cream, so they didn't learn any meditation
or any processes, but instead they got a cream. They said,
this is going to really help, but has an analgesic
effect even though it didn't. The third group got the

(19:12):
control of listening to a book like not even related.
That was the control group. Now the fourth group is
my favorite. The fourth group got sham meditation. Yes you
heard that right, fake meditation. So instead of being taught
the traditional mindfulness techniques as the first group got, they

(19:34):
were here, let's do it together. You can do it
at home. If you're listening to so sit all. Imagine
you're in a group of people. You're you're sitting on
the floor in a circle. Okay, I am the instructor,
and I'm saying, all right, everybody, take a deep breath.
We're sitting here and we are meditating. Keep breathing, keep meditating.

(20:03):
That's it. So what they found was pretty amazing. All
the groups improved except the control The book listening did nothing,
but the sham meditation, the placebo cream, and the mindfulness
meditation group they all improved. But the mindfulness group significantly

(20:25):
reduced pain compared to the others. That's pretty powerful and
I think that researchers really do care about keeping that
essence of the practicing. Now, I'd like to talk about
a yoga example if I can. Yes, So I also
used to think that about yoga. Well, if we if
we do research on yoga, then we're going to lose

(20:48):
that essence, lose that whole person approach to well being.
So a seven year clinical trial, randomized controlled trial on
yoga for arthritis at Johns Hopkins University by Dr Muna's
showed significant improvements and arthritis symptoms, including reduced joint swelling
as measured by rheumatologists, which is a very objective measure,

(21:12):
improved health related quality of life, which is this like
broad measure, but it is a validated instrument that shows
that overall quality of life improved from doing yoga. And
also the huge finding is that pain was reduced by
about which is significant. That's similar to what many pharmaceuticles do.

(21:36):
So this particular trial by Dr Muna was not just
you know, ten poses to help you with your knee
arth rightis it was a well rounded practice, a well
rounded yoga practice that included awareness and focus exercises, chanting,

(21:57):
chanting the sound of how I was really impressed by
some of the details you shared about about chanting home
as well, because that's something when when I practice yoga
by myself, sometimes I have this moment of doubt where
I'm like, do I really need to say, Oh, if
there's no there's nobody else here. Uh And I found
your answer interesting. Yes, Actually I'll get back to that.

(22:18):
Because this particular researcher, Dr Munas taught yoga or taught
meditation to Congress and had them sneakily chant om like
circle back around to that. So the entire practice that
she taught for earth rightists had all these elements like
them that are required, Like I teach this as a
teacher training. People can come as yoga teachers and learn

(22:40):
how to teach this evident based program yoga for Earth Rightists,
and a lot of teachers come and they think they're
going to learn some magical sequence, but instead they get
a basic halfa which is that basic style of yoga class,
and they get bill philosophy that's pulled from the rich
tradition of yoga that's integrated through the US that makes

(23:01):
it really rich and specific to arthritis and chronic pain
and dealing with pain and all the things that come
with arthritis. That's what the real magic, the essence of
that practice it. And you have to teach a well
rounded yoga class in order to have this evidence race program,
Like you can't just go in and take those elements

(23:22):
out and not chant home and not incorporate the philosophy,
then it's not yoga for arthritis. Based off of a
seven year clinical trial, and a lot of yoga researchers
are doing that. When you look at their actual protocols,
it is a well rounded practice that includes a lot
of traditional elements. So back to the sound of home
and why that's important. Well, we know that singing and

(23:46):
verbalizing has great benefits for your health. If you do
sing in the shower, you know that it makes you
feel good. But also in the modern day, we know
that it stimulates the vegas nerve, which is a nerve
that is coming off from the base of the brain
and it's the only one that goes to other areas

(24:08):
of the body. It goes to your heart and your gut,
and it's connecting your mind and the vital organs of
your body. So it is responsible in essence for that
mind body connection, or greatly responsible for it. And when
you chant, the vibrations are stimulating that nerve, which puts

(24:29):
you in the rest, digest and rejuvenate state of your
nervous system, that parasympathetic nervous system state, that place where
you're healing at the highest capacity. All your organs are
functioning at their optimal level. In that place, your heart
rate slows, your blood pressure goes down, your digestion improves.

(24:52):
So chanting the sound home is doing that. And according
to yoga tradition, the sound of o specifically is sacred.
It has these three parts that represent a sense of beginning,
middle and end, a sense of life and connection. I

(25:13):
mean they say that before the universe, before the before
the Big Bang, there was only the sound of olm,
and that's where we all came from, right, that's the mythology,
the tradition. But what I find interesting in the research,
of course, is like a small trial. Not many people
have money to research something so esoteric as this. But

(25:33):
they compared people chanting the sound of home versus people
just going making a sound yeah uh huh, and the
sound of home changed their brain waves more into that
relaxed state of alpha when the sound of studn't. The
sound of home had more uh going into the parasympathetic

(25:54):
nervous system that rest and digest than the sound of
So maybe the Yogis were onto something or not. You
want to believe the mythology of the beautiful mythology of
before the Big Bang, there was only the sound of
or not. The sound of home does have physiological benefits
and it feels good to do it. So back to

(26:15):
that researcher Dr Munas who did the yoga for arthritist trial.
She was asked to teach meditation, a meditation like to
open an event for chrome Gress, and she asked them
if she could chant home and she was told no.
So she's a little bit of a rebel. Actually, I'd
like you to do this with me. What she did,

(26:37):
she didn't ask permission to do this. She just went
on the stage and she said, Okay, everybody, we're going
to side together. So Robert, you can do it with me.
If you're at home, you can try it out with me,
because you're gonna get the same benefits. So notice your breath,
notice your posture. We'll do three size together, repeat after me.

(26:58):
Ah oh oh m. So basically Congress, and that's this beautiful.

(27:18):
I love the idea of of getting you know, everyone
in Congress to um to sort of have their their
neurons fire on the same wavelength for for once, for
at least for a moment there Absolutely all right, It
looks like it's time for a break, but we will
be right back with more of this interview and we return. So, uh,

(27:40):
you touched a little bit on this already, but I
wanted to to ask you about something you discussed in
the book here, and that's mirror neurons, because one of
the things that I often find with with yoga is
that you know, I can I can do yoga on
my own and have sort of a standard routine, probably
too standard that I fall into, uh, and and then
I can do a video and get a little more

(28:01):
out of it. But you know, there's nothing like going
to a class, and a large part of that is,
like I feel, it's it's following somebody's instruction. It's doing
what they tell me to do, doing what they show me.
And then also sort of you know, looking around and
seeing what other people were doing, and you know what
I need reminders about which arm is in the air
and which one's on the floor, etcetera. But but you

(28:22):
you you mentioned your mirror neurons is being a key
to what's going on here. Yeah, I think actually there's
several components I'd like to mention, mirror neurons being one
of them. You know, you are connecting with what the
teacher is doing and you're physically moving your arm in
a similar way and you're thinking that out. But you're
also probably connecting with your teachers compassion or present moment awareness,

(28:48):
and same with the people present with you in the room,
the people next to you. So that absolutely is a
contributing path factor to those group classes. But also I
would say that there's something quite special or magical about
a group setting. We are herd animals, we are social creatures,

(29:09):
and isolation is the new smoking. So to come into
a group of people and to practice something that's healthy
and positive and connect with people is really profound for
our health. And I want to come back to something
that you mentioned earlier, Um, and this is something that
a claim about yoga or just something you hear about

(29:31):
yoga a lot that that always kind of raised my doubts, uh,
And that was the idea that there's you have like
emotions stored in your body and then they're released during yoga.
And yet at the same time, like I've I've had
experiences during yoga where this felt very true. Uh, you know,
where I'll suddenly have some sort of you know, negative

(29:54):
emotion that seems to sort of be released from inside
me or maybe i'm you know, I end up even
hearing up during the practice. So where do you stand
on this, this idea of emotional release during yoga practice. Well,
it's undeniable. Like you said, if you practice yoga for
a certain amount of time, eventually you'll feel something like

(30:15):
this and like that. Are your Vedic saying which is
that Indian medical system? Are your Veda? If I mentioned earlier,
the issues are stored in the tissues. So I'm also
a licensed massage therapist and I see this all the time.
People will cry or even laugh when you release a muscle.
Now I think it's even more powerful when somebody can
do that for themselves. So you're on your island of

(30:37):
a yoga matin I as a teacher or yoga therapist
and just guiding you through that awareness im movement. So
I am teaching you how to release those stored emotions
that maybe have been ignored. And when you release that
that there's a relief of letting go of that tension

(30:58):
that's held in your body. But also there is a
psycho emotional release that may help you live to your
fullest and That's really what I want to do is
empower people to learn how to use these practices so
they can do that from themselves. They don't have to
come to me or go get a massage. They now
have the tools to be able to do this for themselves.

(31:21):
And that brings me to something that I think is
interesting to explain from both a spiritual and a scientific perspective,
is that concept of prama. So prana is vital energy
or life force. You may have heard it as Chi
and Chinese tradition and different Asian philosophies and Native philosophies.

(31:43):
There's this like vital energy that makes us us and
that surrounds us and connects us a life force. Well, I,
as I was studying the premed courseload and doing physics
and anatomy and geology, has started to conceptualize prana is

(32:03):
maybe something that ancient yogis who like devoted their whole
life to this practice, observing their bodies, feeling it, observing
writing these observations down. They were basically feeling the physiology
and the physics of their own body. So there's these
different types of energy that we have in our body,

(32:25):
and perhaps perhaps prana is all of those put together.
Now this is just like my theory. Maybe it will
change in time, but this is how I feel about it.
So we have these emotional charges, We have these uh
held emotional energies in our body, and they change, they
evolve and turn into electrical energy right through our nervous network,

(32:49):
this eloquent electric language that we have within us, so
that now it's in our nervous system, and how our
brains fire, and how are muscles are connected to our
nerves and maybe how they hold tension. And then there's
also this mechanical energy and us we have these vibrating
cells within us that are all communicating through our body,

(33:12):
and they are affected by our lifestyle changes. So noga
affects your biochemistry, changes the way your cells released chemicals,
the way your brain releases chemicals. And then there's this
like sense of potential energy within us that that is
released from kinetic energy from movement from the poses or aucinas,
and we feel this flowing energy, this the blood and

(33:34):
the fluids circulating in our body. So maybe praana is
all of this, all these types of energy that I
learned about in physics class. Maybe the ancient yogis were
just feeling it and put a word to it and
called it vital life force energy. Yeah, I think I
think that's a that's a great point because obviously, you know,

(33:54):
sometimes we think about people in the ancient past and
we have we have a reluctant to attribute like, um,
you know, really modern consciousness to them and to to
realize that they would have you know, that they're obviously
capable of having you very deep thoughts and insights into
and to say what the body is doing even if
they don't have certainly the modern terminology or the the

(34:17):
English language terminology for for what's going on. I like
how you emphasize the Hans Saliers ninety six concept of
not only stress, but but you stress. Um, can you
explain the distinction and how it factors into yoga. Yeah,
we think stress is bad. Let me get rid of stress, right,
But I will tell you, although I do believe in

(34:40):
the power of yoga, it will not get rid of
your stress. What it will do is help change how
you perceive, experience and deal with stress, so that you
can deal with stress with a better attitude and more resilience.
So Hans Celier coined the term stress in ninety six,

(35:04):
and he described that as the body's response to change,
So not necessarily a bad thing as we talk about
it in the modern day. Now, there's two different types
of stress. There's you stress like the word euphoria that
that same thing root words like a good stress. And
then there's distress. That's what we think of in the
modern day. Right does that bad stress or I don't

(35:27):
even necessarily want to say bad stress. It's like a
real or imagine stress that puts pressure on your system,
that weighs down your system and puts this greater load
on it, that makes your organs work harder, that degrades
your brain tissue that ultimately leads to these lifestyle diseases.

(35:51):
These lifestyle diseases like heart disease and diabetes and um arthritis,
these things that start to affect not just start to
that are deeply affecting our society. So I say that
yoga can help you deal with that distress better and

(36:13):
not have as much imagined distress. So it's real or
imagined stressors. Right like the paper tigers, right like we
feel like we're being chased by a saber tooth tiger
and we have the same physiological stress response as if
we are when we're about to go into a meeting,

(36:36):
and instead like it's probably going to be fine, your
your life is not in danger. You do not need
to release the same level of cortisol, a, stress hormones
or adrenaline, yes, throughout the day. Not to criminalize adrenaline
or stress hormones, because throughout the day those go up
and down and we need to have them. We don't

(36:58):
want to be stress free. We actually need to have
stress to rise to the occasion. So instead, when I'm
about to go into a meeting or I'm about to
do a talk, maybe I can observe my heart beating
and my sweat as an indicator that this is something
that's important to me. Now, can I use my tools

(37:20):
of yoga to clear my mind to breathe deeply, make
sure I'm getting the proper breath for the awareness that
i need in the moment. Kelly McGonagall, a researcher, talks
about this that you can observe that stress response as
a good thing as your body rising to the occasion

(37:43):
to be able to handle that stress. So I think
that yoga and the mindset shift from yoga is that,
oh I can deal with the stress, and now I
have tools to not get into a spiraling down anxiety
in this stressful state. Instead, I can observe it and say, Okay,

(38:04):
this is hard, but like this could be turned into
a good type of stress, or maybe I can minimize
those those imagined stresses here in the moment through awareness,
through mindfulness, through deep breathing or opposed That helps me
feel more connected and aware. So in discussing the mind

(38:24):
and our you know, and and all sorts of perceptions
of stress and so forth, the brain itself. Can yoga
change the brain? Yes, it sure does. The electrical activity
and our brains changes, like in the moment when you
are meditating or when you're doing mindful practice like yoga,

(38:45):
like movement with awareness. So you go from that alert
state where your mind is constantly balancing around that beta
brain waves to more alpha brain waves, which is relaxed
state of the mind where it's like you're about to
fall asleep. Yeah, the mind wanders a little here and there,

(39:07):
but it's lesser. So and then sometimes meditative practices can
even put us in a different electrical state, the data waves,
which are associated with creativity. And this is something really
common in kids they have a lot of theta waves,
but adults don't as much. But meditators can go into

(39:27):
that creative space more beyond that, Yoga in the short
term and in the long term affects what parts of
your brains are are firing. So in the short term
we can look and see that the areas of your
brain through these these awareness practices that are firing are,
for example, your prefrontal cortex that has to do with

(39:49):
that's the essence that makes us us as humans. It
helps us plan and evaluate and regulate our emotions, and
that area yet increases with a lot of these practices
because we're focused, and over a long term that area
becomes measurably thicker, like we can look at it in

(40:11):
a scanner and see that you have more brain tissue
because you have more connections in that area. And to
maintain the brain connections in our prefrontal cortex is huge
because as we age, there's a natural degradation that occurs
with age. But if we can maintain that, then we
are basically like Sarah Lazar's researcher her she's a Harvard researcher,

(40:37):
and she shows that fifty year old meditators have key
brain structure similar to that of twenty five year old
non meditators. So this suggests, yeah, that meditation may slow
or even prevent some of the natural degradation of brain
tissue that happens with aging. So that is pretty huge.

(40:57):
Some other areas of your brain are down regular it,
so areas like your your fear center is down regulated.
And then your memory area, your hypocampus, builds more connections,
so you have more of a sense of being able
to recall things from the far past, but more of

(41:18):
a working memory, I think is what's really important to
a lot of people that improves through these meditative practices.
So through yoga and through meditation, see, all of these
changes are pretty profound. I don't know. I also like
the biochemical effects because we are seeing changes in the
chemistry of your brain. Uh. There is a type of

(41:43):
neurotransmitter called gabba that is basically something that counteracts anxiety
and stress symptoms. So when we are depressed or anxious,
a lot of the medications actually are increasing our gap levels.
They're affecting those Well, meditation does that and yoga does

(42:05):
that on its own. It increases gaba, which means that
you are more relaxed and you have less of those
stress and anxiety sort of symptoms. Also, serotonin one that
we we've all heard of that medications affect for depression
and anxiety, Well, that goes up from meditation and yoga,

(42:26):
and dopamine is a reward chemical that's regulated, that's regulated
through yoga and meditation, and then cortisol overall is reduced
that stressed hormone, and nor epinephrine or the adrenaline basically
is reduced overall from from yoga and meditation. So all
of these chemicals change. That's pretty awesome. I mean, that's

(42:49):
what the pharmaceutical companies don't want you to know is
that you can do a lot of this on your own.
And I'm not suggesting that we should not take medications.
We need it. There's a lot of additions that absolutely
need it or times in your life where you may
need it in order to get at that funk. But
yoga is being shown through the research to be excellent

(43:11):
agunt therapy to be used alongside whatever your medical team
and you decide is appropriate for you because it has
these same grain chemistry changes. I know. I want to
go back to discussions of of the the yoga community
and uh, you know, spiritualism and science and sometimes the

(43:33):
sort of budding of heads between the two. Uh. In
two thousand twelve, Put Prize winning New York Times science
writer William J. Broad's book The Science of Yoga, The
Risks and Rewards came out, and I thought it was
a very illuminating book. I read it when it came out,
and I appreciated the attention to historic and scientific detail.

(43:53):
But he also caught some criticism from some of the
yoga community. Uh do I think in large part two
discussions of injuries and uh and and really the risk
portion of that subtitle. What's what's your take on this? Well,
first of all, I agree that the historical aspects of
the book were really fascinating. It drew me in. But

(44:14):
it's funny. I was actually at a conference soon after
that book came out, and I was at the Symposium
of Yoga Research at Kripalu. So that's where all the
yoga researchers and the world get together. A nerd out
about the recent yoga research. And some of the researchers
who were interviewed in his book or whose researcher was
referred to in his book definitely felt misconstrued. The yoga community,

(44:40):
whether it be the mainstream yoga community or also the
yoga research community, felt misconstrued. And I would say the
reason being that that uh, yoga researchers tend to be
quite conservative in their claims and reasonable. And this book
is an editorial book versus mind was just like a
reference book and an educational resource. So in this editorial

(45:03):
style often comes some sensationalizing, which I won't want lie
it really makes it interesting, and it makes it a
New York Times bestseller. So he actually put out an
article in the New York Times right when the book
was released called how Yoga Will Wreck Your Body? And
he does practice yoga, so he's not saying yoga is

(45:24):
actually bad, but that's sort of villain in station or
that sensationalizing. I don't think it's overall helpful for getting
yoga to the masses. So I think that that is
part of it. Um. I mean, there's a systematic review
on the safety of yoga. That a review is when
there's enough research so that we can look at it
and be like, Okay, here's what all of that research says.

(45:47):
And it shows that yoga is as safe, is not
safer than other forms of exercise. And I would argue
it's safer because we have that sense of present moment
awareness and and the philosophy of not harming yourself. So
that's one aspect of it. It's just kind of sensationalizing
any harm that could happen from yoga. There are some
some injuries with yoga, and I think it's important that

(46:10):
yoga teachers no ways to be safer. And I have
some things that you can as a practitioner or teacher
be able to understand the safety. In my book Science
of Yoga Compared to the Science of Yoga, I think
it confused a lot um, but in my book I
talk about that because I think it is important. However,
the number of injuries is pretty darn low. When we

(46:33):
look at how much yoga is practiced. It is overall
of really safe practice. Um And he was also pretty
critical of yoga therapy, which is my field, and it
is an emerging field. But now we have a clear
scope of practice and Veterans Affairs hospitals, the A hospitals

(46:55):
are hiring full time yoga therapists due to those success
and they search on PTSC and chronic pain, two issues
that veterans really can benefit from. So there is a
shift happening towards integrative and preventive health care, and the
International Association of Yoga Therapist has a seat at the table.

(47:16):
So since Broad has written that book, things have changed rapidly,
and they're continuing to change as more and more research
comes out now on the on the topic of of
of risks, You do have a section in your book
about cautions and uh that I found very insightful because
I think back to times where, you know, only a

(47:37):
couple of really mainly one or two times where I've
had some sort of minor um you know, uh, injury.
I guess from yoga. It's generally from times where I
was over zealous and I wasn't really approaching it with
the right mindset where I'm like, oh, I really, I've
got to have that bind. Like that bind looks so

(47:58):
so so great. I feel like if I could just
connect my my hands in this particular pose, I'll be
so happy. And then of course I pull something because
my body is not ready to do that. Uh. So
that that seems to be a part of the scenario,
right that we should just knowing what to do and
what not to do for our bodies. Right. Yeah, absolutely,

(48:18):
And that's why I work with a lot of people
are one on one because as a yoga therapist, I
am working with more the at risk populations, people with
joint replacements, chronic pain, severe arthright is, back issues, And
so I would suggest to people to if you feel

(48:38):
like you're not sure to get a one on one
teacher or a yoga therapist, but if you feel like
you can go to a group class, don't compare yourself
to other people in the room. Try to make sure
that you are on your little island of a yoga
mat and you were doing what is right for you.
You're not harming yourself. I think that is really important.

(49:01):
There are some key things you can do to not
get hurt, and I like to outload those things and
I teach teachers those things because I think it is important.
But I also don't want to sensationalize that aspect of
yoga because overall yoga is safe. Just don't push yourself
to your hard Now you already touched on at least
one yoga myth, and like I said in the in

(49:22):
the book, you you you do a bus of myths
here and there. You mentioned the kidneys already. Do you
have another great example that that you feel comes up
a bit too often. Yeah. I hear in yoga classes
sometimes it's said we're doing this twist to help you
ring out the toxins, or they describe a yoga class

(49:43):
like detoxifying after Thanksgiving or a night of drinking. And
I do not think that you were ringing out your
toxins by twisting. I I think also that I don't
like the philosophy of considering myself toxic. My body is
able to deal with toxins efficiently through the liver, filtering

(50:07):
them and by movement. I'm not stimulating my liver, not
as far as we know. Like, a liver is not
an organ that works by like squeezing it, Like that's
not what encourages this function. However, the digestive organs are.
They work by movement and squeezing them that helps the
process of parastalsis or the movement of food through the

(50:30):
digestive track through your rowels. So instead I might replace
that when we're twisting, as you are encouraging good digestion
and a flow to have good proper elimination. You're encouraging
that parastalsis. That is a true benefit. But I don't
know if I buy that you are ringing out to

(50:52):
the toxin, nor do I buy that that you are
toxic and you need to do something about it. I
think you are and perfect just as you are. You
do not need to detoxify yourself, And that is the
philosophy of yoga, is recognizing that fullness. Your body does
that naturally, So I think it's just best to focus

(51:14):
on what's actually happening. And what's actually happening is pretty
darn cool, so why not. So for anyone out there
who who has heard heard this interview and they're like, Okay,
I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna finally try yoga, and
they're going to go out somewhere and try it for
the first time, what advice do you have for them?
Don't feel like you need to be flexible or have

(51:34):
a certain body type. Most of the yoga research is
on the profound benefits for older adults and people's chronic diseases, Like,
anybody can do this, That's what their research is showing.
So it's not about you know, being able to put
your feet behind your ears. Like the research, if anything
is shows that it's about what's in between your ears

(51:57):
that is most profoundly affected. So I would say just
try it. Take a ten minute break of yoga at
work and do something in your chair. I have some
three videos on my website and Swanson Wellness dot com.
You can do these things right at work. Do yoga breaks.
So instead of going on a smoking break, take a

(52:19):
yoga break. You're gonna have even more benefits from doing
small practices throughout the day rather than a full sixty
minute practice. If that feels overwhelming to you, so actually
you're gonna get more from it if you can take
a five minute meditation here or two minute meditation there.
So I would say try it. If you don't like

(52:40):
a specific class, try another. Maybe get a one on
one teacher so that you can adapt it for your body.
And I feel like you can do small things because
the small things make a big difference. All right, looks
like it is time for a quick break, but we
will be right back with more. And we're back now.

(53:01):
Of course, when when someone tries out yoga for the
first time, at the second time, the third time, as
they tried different options. You know, they're again they're going
to encounter those you know, that intersection of science and spiritualism,
which which again is is I think one of the
most fascinating things going going on with yoga. Yeah. I'm
of the mind that you know that both are important.

(53:22):
The science has to be uh, you know, our skeptical bedrock,
but the spiritual modes of thinking can greatly improve the
human condition. How do how do you integrate the two
in your practice? Yeah? Absolutely, I want to emphasize that
science and spirituality do not have to be mutually exclusive. So,
like I said, I am a total hashtags science nerd,

(53:45):
hashtex cerial toil nerd. Get my millennial side in there. Um.
I work with people with chronic pain, anxiety, and sleep
issues because yoga therapy is so well student for these multifaceted,
complex lifestyle conditions, and it's that spiritual component that I
think really does serve people. So it's not only does

(54:07):
the scientific research suggest but that these these practices have benefits,
but also that their life changing. And that's what people
tell me, and that's my experience myself. People say to me,
this simple practice that you gave me, it literally changed
my life. And when somebody says life changing to me,

(54:29):
that represents a spiritual shift. But you may not be
comfortable towards spiritual and that's cool, Like you can replace it.
I mean, I'm embracing it, but you can replace it
to a mindset shift or a life of more purpose
and meaning. That's what I think yoga provides us or
can provide us. And one of my favorite quotes is

(54:50):
by Einstein. If I can read that, he says that
a human being is a part of a whole called
by us as a universe, a part limited in time
and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings, is
something separate from the rest, a kind of optical delusion

(55:12):
of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison
for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to
affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task
must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening
our circle of compassion, to embrace all living creatures and

(55:32):
the whole of nature in its beauty. Yeah. To me,
that's what yoga helps me realize, is is that that interconnectedness,
that union, and I think that it can be both
science based and have research to support it and have
that spiritual component, that deeper sense of connection simultaneously. Well,

(55:57):
we we talked about this before we went to went
on the air. Here, if you will, you gave us
this example of the fake meditation, the fake mindfulness exercise earlier. Um,
so we're gonna see if you can close out here
for us with an example of an actual mindfulness exercise
that our our listeners can also participate in. Absolutely And

(56:18):
you mean remember me mentioning earlier that the sound of
home stimulates the biggest nerve and puts you in that
rest to digest state. Well, ancient Yogi is also intuited
that elongating your exhales puts you into that relaxed state,
and it actually does. It stimulates your biggest nerve also,

(56:40):
so you can go into a deeper relaxation state quicker
if you along at your exhales. I think it's pretty
cool they intuited that. And now we have a name
for respiratory scinus or with meia like not that you
need to know the name, but that I have an
actual name for it in the modern scientific day. So
let's practice it for ourselves. You if you're like driving
are out in the world. You can have your eyes

(57:01):
open and continue on your day doing this, or if
you are comfortable at home, you're welcome to sit or
stand tall and pause for a moment, maybe even close
your eyes if that's comfortable. Notice your natural breath to begin. Now,
I'd like you to bring your breath down. What I

(57:26):
mean by that is allow your belly to move more
with your breath, to expand with the inhales and release
down and in with the exhales. Maybe want to put
your hands on your belly to feel and allow that.

(57:47):
Begin to elongate your exhale, trying to let as much
of the breath out with each exhale without forcing m
You may be deepening your breath. That's good. Maybe even

(58:15):
listen to your breath as you do this. You may
hear all the sounds around you and whatever environment you're in,
but focus on your breath in the foreground, feeling it,

(58:36):
sensing it, hearing it as you elongate your exhales for
five more deep breaths, finishing off these breaths. As you

(59:06):
finish them, notice how your body feels in the state
of your mind from just a minute or two of
awareness and simply elongating your exhales. Your eyes are closed,
you can gently open them. Thank you so much, Robert

(59:32):
for having me on the show. Oh, thank you for
joining us and discussing yoga and discussing your book. Absolutely,
And if people are interested in the research, I have
a reference guide on my website, Science of Dot Yoga,
and you can download it and click right to these
research studies. So if you're interested in not only my

(59:53):
book the Simple Ways, but being able to dive in
and see for yourself as you ask why why why,
I have those on www jot Science of Dot Yoga. Excellent.
All right, thanks, all right, good bye, all right, So
there you have it, um again. The book is Science
of Yoga, Understand the anatomy and physiology to perfect your practice.

(01:00:14):
It came out this year, in twenty nineteen, and it's
available I think pretty much all formats and in different languages. Again,
it's a gorgeous book. The layout in illustration and the
content itself is fabulous. And you can check out Anne's
website at and Swanson Wellness dot com. And if you
want more episodes of Stuff to Blow your Mind, heading
overs Stuff to Blow your Mind dot com, that's where
you'll find our show. If you want to check out Invention,

(01:00:36):
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(01:00:58):
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(01:01:18):
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