From the Vault: The Rat King

The nightmare vision of black rats tangled by the tail continues to intrigue and revolt us, but what is its origin? In this classic episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Robert and Joe venture into the sewers of history to seek answers. (originally published 12/12/2023)

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name
is Robert Lamb. It is, of course Saturday, so we
have a vault episode for you. This is going to
be one of our holiday episodes from last year, titled
The Rat King, originally published twelve twelve, twenty twenty three.
Let's dive right in.

Speaker 2 (00:27):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

Speaker 1 (00:36):
Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is.

Speaker 3 (00:40):
Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick. And on today's
episode of Stuff to Blow your Mind, we are going
to be talking about the wonderful, the Glorious Rat King, which,
believe it or not, this is a Christmas episode, isn't it.

Speaker 1 (00:53):
Rob? That's right? This is one of a pair of
Christmas Core episodes we're busting out this week. You can
probably guess what the next one's going to be. But yeah,
I mean, the Holidays bring on an abundance of traditions, right,
I mean, we have the Christian Nativity, we have Santa Claus,
we have other things like Crampus, we have Marley's Ghost,
we have the nineteen ninety sci fi action film I

(01:14):
Come in Peace, and of course we have The Nutcracker.

Speaker 3 (01:18):
Oh okay, here's the tie in.

Speaker 1 (01:20):
So most of you are probably familiar with Tchaikovsky's ballet
The Nutcracker. If you haven't seen it, if you haven't
seen it many many times, this basically this is how
it plays out. The first half is a rather imaginative
tale of a nutcracker prince coming to life and with

(01:41):
the help of a little girl, waging a battle against
an evil mouse king, culminating in a cool sword fight.
And then the rest of the ballet, which feels about
usually about like three or four hours long. It is
just a victory lap of dancing, just one dance after
the other, no more stay, no more conflict, just dancing.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
What do I remember about the Nutcracker. I remember like
a grandfather clock and like a sort of creepy, mysterious
grandfather figure. I remember a lady with a giant dress
that a bunch of children come out of. And I remember, yeah,
I guess the rat king.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Yeah yeah, or I guess it's specifically it's a mouse king,
but it's very closely tied no pun intended with the
concept of the rat king. Now. The ballet was based
upon German romantic author Eta Hoffman's eighteen sixteen short story
The Nutcracker and the Mouse King, in which the titular

(02:41):
mouse king is described as follows. This is the This
is from the LRC translation. Marie was not afraid of mice,
and she could not help being amused by this sight.
She stood watching the mice come from all directions, when
suddenly there came a sharp and terrible piping noise, and
seven mouse heads with seven shining crowns upon them, rose

(03:04):
through the floor. And behind them wriggled a mouse's body,
on which the seven heads had all grown. Then the
whole army of my shouted in full chorus, and went trot,
trot right up to the cupboard. In fact, to Marie,
who was standing beside it.

Speaker 3 (03:21):
Wait a minute, I don't remember that this is a
single mouse's body, but it's got seven mouse heads.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Yes, this is commonly not depicted in performances of the ballet,
though sometimes it is. Sometimes ballets will decide to get creative,
get a little dark, and dive back into these roots.
But I have more passages to read here. There's more
of this. It's great, okay. Later on in the text,
Hoffman writes, but that moment two enemy marksmen took hold

(03:51):
of nutcrackers wooden cloak and held him fast. Squeaking in
triumph from seven throats, the mouse King sprang forward to
take his kill.

Speaker 3 (04:00):
Whoa, oh, and.

Speaker 1 (04:01):
Get this one, This one may be the best. She
could only watch as the mouse King squeezed himself out
through a hole in the wall. His fourteen eyes and
seven crowns glistened as he bounded through the room and
made a huge leap up to the top of Marie's nightstand.

Speaker 3 (04:18):
Yikes, I'm getting flashes of Stephen King's cat's eye.

Speaker 1 (04:22):
Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean this is a creature of horror.

Speaker 3 (04:26):
Yeah, less cute than I recall from the ballet. So
this is a monster creature that is a mouse with
seven heads on a single body.

Speaker 1 (04:35):
That's right, And there are other descriptions in the text
that emphasize the horror of multiplicity into a mouse. Cumig
Now Hoffman, who of seventeen seventy six through eighteen twenty two,
was a dark romantic. One of his early novels, eighteen
fifteen's The Devil's Elixirs, concerns a doppelganger. He didn't originate
the term or the concept but his work may have

(04:57):
helped popularize the concept. He is also well known for
his eighteen seventeen story The Sandman, which references a folkloric
entity and kind of a horror spin, and it also
features a female automaton. He's apparently noted for often employing
optical motifs, which include not only the doubling of one's

(05:17):
identity as with the Doppelganger, but also the multitude of
heads on The Mouse King. And I think he makes
use of other more direct uses of optical technology in
places as well, like telescopes and so forth.

Speaker 3 (05:29):
You're saying optical motifs because like the doubling might be
like a kind of multiplicity of images you would see
through like a prism or some kind of thing a
lens or thing like that.

Speaker 1 (05:41):
Yeah, yeah, Like, for instance, in these passages from the
Nutcracker in the Mouse King, you get a sense of
like almost like that of a kaleidoscope. You know, there's
something just optically out of line with this thing that
is moving towards you the reader, or towards Marie, the character.

Speaker 3 (05:58):
I understand now.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Of course, Hoffman would have been acquainted with folklore, which
we also see in his referencing of the sandman. The sandman,
of course, typically sprinkles sand or dust upon a sleeper's eyes.
I think we all know that basic idea. But in
Hoffman's work, the sandman is said to steal the eyes
of children who refuse to go to bed. The sand
he puts on their eyes causes their eyeballs to fall out,

(06:21):
and then he collects set eyeballs and takes them to
the moon to feed his children.

Speaker 3 (06:25):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, And of course Hoffman would have definitely been familiar
with the concept of the rat king, which seemingly plays
into his invention here as well. Now, I was looking
at a couple of sources, both by an author by
the name of David Blameyer's. One of them is Telling
Tales the Impact of Germany on English Children's Books, seventeen
eighty through nineteen eighteen. This is a two thousand and

(06:47):
nine publication, and he points out that Hoffman's description of
the mouse king references both folkloric tales of multi headed
dragons as well as the dragon from the Book of Revelation.
Be clear, the author doesn't make any mention of rat kings,
as we'll be discussing them later As an inspiration here.

Speaker 3 (07:07):
Right, Okay, but you can clearly see how knowledge of
the biological or alleged biological entity the rat king would
have would have or could have inspired the idea of
a mouse with seven heads.

Speaker 1 (07:21):
Yeah. Yeah, Now there's another example. This is sort of
folk little bit more, I guess specifically literature. There's another
work by the same author, the Folklore Tradition in Germany,
where he mentions a rat king by the name of
Berlibby that pops up in what Longreads author Adrian Dobb
describes as a kunsmachen quote, an art fairy tale, a

(07:44):
narrative that a writer fashions to resemble something you might
hear from a farm hand at your father's estate. Okay, So,
according to Dobb, here again this excellent piece on Longreads.
I recommend it if you want some more rat king action.
Here he points out that the rat king in this
work is described as a king of all rodents. He's

(08:06):
like a literal ruler of the rodent world, but is
singular in body and in head, though it is implied
that his tale is nodded with that of his wife,
the rat Queen. Aw that's sweet, I guess, kind of sweet.
It was this particular work. In this particular creation, Berlibby

(08:27):
was the creation of Ernst mountst Arndt, who lives seventeen
sixty nine through eighteen sixty a German nationalist, historian, writer
and poet who in this tale seems to have been
largely commenting on the rise of Napoleon, critiquing the idea
that some might want to rise above their station within
their own nation via the interference of a foreign power.

(08:51):
And this, according to Dobb, was two years after Hoffman's tale.
I don't know that there's any indication that like Hoffman's
tale inspired this one. I think it's more probably the
idea that like the rat King, was like a general
concept already that was established. And we see two different
authors exploring things with the idea, but for different purposes.

Speaker 3 (09:10):
Ah okay. So even in these slightly altered or just
different forms, we see that the idea of the rat
king is often used to symbolize something. It means something
about religious life, or political life, or morality.

Speaker 1 (09:26):
That's right. Doab, writing about the example in Arnt's work, writes, quote,
the rat King appears like an almost perfect parody of
the community building ambitions that dominated German public life during
and following the Napoleonic Wars. So he says, you know,
the community building we're talking about here. This would have

(09:47):
been things like community singing, community storytelling, various community minded
efforts that were present in the culture of the time period.
And the mouse king is presented perhaps as the unpleasant
under belly of social cohesion. Quote the rat represented the
dark side of community, the dark side of dependency, the
dark side of proximity, tied.

Speaker 3 (10:09):
So closely to one another that you, in the end,
are all doomed, doomed to a common fate.

Speaker 1 (10:14):
Yes, yeah, And so all of this would have been
during a century in which Germany was transitioning from a
largely rural society to a largely urban one. But of
course these literary treatments did not invent the concept. Rather,
again they find imaginative and or metaphorical uses of something
that was already present in the public mindset. So what

(10:36):
could that be? What could they have possibly been commenting
on what had been seen, what had been witnessed, what
was alive and the zeitgeist of the time.

Speaker 3 (10:46):
Right, So I guess this brings us to the question
many listeners probably already know the basic idea. But what
is a rat king In the common modern understanding, it
is a group of rats who are joined at the tail,
usually described or represented with the tails entangled in a
huge not ball, and going all the way back to

(11:08):
the sixteenth century, there have been dozens of documented accounts
of rats discovered in this state, multiple rats three or
more joined by the tail, sometimes hiding underneath floorboards, inside walls,
protruding from earthen burrows, often with the rats still alive,
arranged like the spokes of a wheel. And there are

(11:31):
also physical specimens of alleged rat kings preserved and photographed
with their tails entwined in this way, though of course
in these cases the rats are generally already dead, so
it can be hard to rule out hoaxes in the
case of like a rat king that's actually kept in
a museum somewhere that we'll have some educated commentary on
the plausibility of hoaxes versus natural origin later on.

Speaker 1 (11:55):
I will say that you can certainly do some image
searches and see some rat kings are like rat kings,
but these are not pleasant images to look at, like
a lot of like monstrous curiosities or alleged curiosities of
the natural world or even the unnatural world, are interesting
to look at or cool looking. The rat king not

(12:15):
so much. I feel like it kind of seems to
catch on as an idea more so than it is
an actual symbol. Like, I don't know there are a
lot of say, bands that use the rat king as
their logo or anything of that nature.

Speaker 3 (12:28):
Oh, I didn't even consider that, but I bet there
are some.

Speaker 1 (12:31):
I bet there are some, but they're probably kind of,
you know, going for something outrageous and gross.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
So we wanted to look at the question what are
these masses of mutually doomed rodents? Are they something that
actually forms in nature or merely a legendary cryptid that
inspired some taxidermy hoaxes, And if they do occur in nature,
why and how so? First of all, I want to
mention a major source that I'm going to be using

(12:59):
in this exploration, one of the best things I came across,
which is a book called Rats by an author named
Martin Hart, published by Alison and Busby, Originally published in
Dutch in nineteen seventy three, but with an English translation
by Arnold Palmeranz in nineteen eighty two, and this book
has an entire chapter devoted to ratkings and is just

(13:21):
generally an excellent resource on this topic. So to get
a flavor of what an encounter in the wild with
a ratking looks like, I'm going to share an account
from the beginning of Hart's chapter. So the setting is
a cold day in February nineteen sixty three, and this
is actually the most recent discovery of a rat king

(13:41):
that Hart recounts in his book, though there have been
other ones since then. This took place at a farm
in the Dutch town of Rukfenn. A farmer named Peeve
van Ninatten was out in his yard and he noticed
a squealing sound coming from the direction of the barn.
The farmer followed the squealing to its source, and when

(14:02):
he got to it, he noticed a black rat peering
out from under a heap of bean poles. The farmer
killed the rat, but then when he tried to pull
it out from under the poles, it wouldn't budge. It
was stuck to something, and further uncovering revealed that the
rat he had killed was somehow tied by the tail
to six other rats. He killed the other rats as well,

(14:26):
and then was left with this wheel of rats, consisting
of seven apparently well fed adults, two males, and five females.
They were of the species Rattus ratus, the black rat.
They were not brown rats or the species Ratus norwegicus,
which was a bit strange because they were found in
the barn and chicken coop area of the farm, which,

(14:49):
according to the farmer, was normally inhabited by brown rats
and not black rats, though the farmer knew that he
had black rats living in the loft of his house
some distance away. On closer examination of the tail knot,
most of the rats were tied only by the tips
of their tails, though one rat had basically its entire
tail tangled up. The knot also contained external material, like

(15:14):
some straw. The flesh of the tails appeared compressed where
it had been tied against the others, and an X
ray revealed that there were some bone fractures in the
tails and in the rats of their vertebrae. Examination indicated
that the tails appear to have been joined like this
for a while, which is a little perplexing because the

(15:35):
rats did appear to have eaten well like they didn't
appear emaciated and rob I've attached some pictures for you
to look at of the rat King of Rukfinn. Here's
the whole rat king with the seven individuals, and then
there's a close up of the tail knot. It does
look very grizzly.

Speaker 1 (15:52):
Yeah, yeah, Worth noting, of course that rats tails are
I belief, semi prehensile. But you can imagine in a
situation that's if they were to come intertwined and certainly broken,
there'd be very little that rats could do to free themselves.

Speaker 3 (16:06):
That's right. There are some accounts of people witnessing or
claiming to witness a rat here or there breaking out
of the tangle, like actually getting out, either by detaching
like part of its tail coming off, injuring itself to escape,
or managing to untangle and get out, but this seems rare.
Mostly the rats appear stuck this way, and to summarize

(16:29):
a large later section of Heart's chapter, a lot of
the accounts of rat king discoveries from history take basically
the same form as the story I just told. Someone
is attracted to the sound of squealing, and then they
discover behind or underneath something a single rat and then
they attack it and then later discover that it is

(16:49):
joined to at least two others in extreme instances dozens
of others.

Speaker 1 (16:55):
Yeah. Yeah, And in a lot of time, I've seen
multiple accounts where it's something you know, it's taking place at,
say a barn or perhaps an urban environment. I guess
you could point out that these would be you know,
human spaces, human places. Rats, of course, their populations growing

(17:16):
in the very places where human populations grow and living
alongside us in the shadows.

Speaker 3 (17:23):
I think that is significant. And let's come back to
that when we talk about the conclusions of a paper
I'm going to get to later. So another section of
Heart's chapter here is an interesting diversion on the origin

(17:45):
of the name rat king. It is a kind of
weird thing to call a collection of rats tied together
by the tail, Like, what is especially kingly about this?

Speaker 1 (17:55):
Right? Right? I mean, a king, by its very nature
is an individual room over the mini. We tend not
to think of a king as being a composite.

Speaker 3 (18:05):
Of multiples exactly, But the way Heart lays it out,
I think you can kind of see the way the
the meaning applied to this term has has sort of
crept and morphed over time. So, according to Hart, the
term rat king is a direct translation of the medieval
German ratten koenig, though in this usage it originally had
nothing to do with tailknots. It meant quote, one who

(18:27):
lives well on the backs of others, So you can
think of a sort of opulent parasite, or in a
way one might argue any king somebody who you know,
lives off the labor of others. They live well, they're
you know, they're they're well fed, they get all the
luxury they desire with other people doing the work. And
that sort of social human association with the term rat

(18:49):
king is explained somewhat by its usage in the sixteenth
century text by an author named Conrad Gesner called Historia Animalium.
From what I can tell, this scene to be a
kind of a kind of great source document of like cryptozoologists.
They'll love looking back to Conrad Gessner's entries in this
But the point Gessner makes in this book, as summarized

(19:13):
by Heart, is quote, some would have it that the
rat wax is mighty in its old age and is
fed by its young. This is what's called the rat king. Okay,
So the idea is that like, some rats get like
old and venerable as rats go, and then the other
rats will start to serve it as a king. They'll

(19:33):
bring it food, they'll bring it little baubles and like
pieces of velvet or luxury items. You know, they're coming
to serve their rat king. So that rat king is
living well by doing nothing off of the labor of
the other rats in its nest.

Speaker 1 (19:49):
Of course, you could easily tell the same fancy old
story and point out that, hey, rats look after their elders,
how honorable.

Speaker 3 (19:56):
Yeah, yeah, you could exactly say that. Though to be clear, I,
in featuring this story, I do not mean to endorse
the idea that there's biological evidence for this. This seems
to be more like a you know, an early modern
story about how rats work, not anything that's backed up
by research. Another early usage of the term rat king,
though apparently having nothing to do with the the you know,

(20:18):
the the wheel of rats tied together by the tail,
is a quote from the founder of the Protestant Reformation,
Martin Luther, in a passage attacking the Catholic Church. Luther says, quote,
the archbishops have a primate above them the primate's a patriarch,
and finally there is the pope, the king of the
rats right at the top.

Speaker 1 (20:40):
Kind of kind of complicated here we have primates and rats.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
Well, the primate's that's like a position in the Catholic Church.

Speaker 1 (20:48):
Oh okay, sorry, I'm just picturing an actual primate. So
he's like Martin Luther is talking about apes, he's talking
about rats. He might be if flinging something at a devil.
He's just sees his.

Speaker 3 (21:00):
That usage of primate can be confusing and has confused
me in the past. Yeah, but no, he's just talking
about like the positions and like, yeah, the worst one
who's like sort of the the evil king at the
top of this institution that Luther hated, that's the rat
king the pope, And that Luther quote would have been
sixteenth century as well. Heart writes that after this the

(21:22):
term ratt and Koenig came to refer to a king
rat who sat on a throne made of knotted tails.
So this seems like there's some morphing now where you're
getting halfway to the rat king idea we have today.
And I guess in this formulation, if I'm picturing picturing
it right. It's not just that there are multiple rats

(21:44):
with their tails nodded, but there's a king rat riding
that knot of tails, like a palanquin or a litter.
You know, it's like sitting upon the throne of tails.

Speaker 1 (21:55):
I'm a little hazy on where I saw this, but
there was an old bit. I think Robert Snegel had
something to do with this, the comedian behind Triumph the
insult comic dog. But oh ok, the sketch. Perhaps listeners
can write in about where I'm remembering this from, but
the sketch was always the same. Here's a snake and
it has a sizeable lump in its body. It's like
an anaconda or something. And you have to guess what

(22:17):
the lump is based on the shape of it, And
so looking at the snake, the lump appears to be
an old woman in a rocking chair. And then they reveal,
after everyone's had a chance to guess, they reveal what
the contents of the rat stomach happens to be, and
it is a pile of dead rats in the shape
of a woman in a rocking chair.

Speaker 3 (22:37):
That's good, But to come back to this image, it
is a striking image, though Heart says it is not
known where this idea first came from. But okay, so
that's like a rat king on a throne of knotted tails.
You take away the king and then what you've got
left is just rats with knotted tails. And according to Heart,
the first source to visually depict a rat king in

(23:00):
any form and this is I think, in the form
that we now understand it as just a group of
rats with noted tails. The first publication to contain this
was an edition of a sixteenth century book called the
Emblemata by a Hungarian author named Johannes Sambucus or I
think in his original language, janosh Zamboki. And this was

(23:24):
an emblem book, which was a genre of literature that
used to be quite popular, which would be essentially a
catalog of allegorical illustrations or images. So in one common format,
each page of this book would have a picture like
a drawing that has some weird stuff going on in it,
and then a Latin motto, and then some text, often poetry,

(23:48):
explaining or interpreting the image. So for a modern example
that people can understand, I'm just making this up, imagine
a book that's got a page that has an illustration
of Lady Justice blindfold blindfolded holding a sword in scales
and a Latin motto that means to give everyone their due.

(24:09):
Then there would be some texts describing what the image means,
and that the scales mean the weighing of the evidence,
and the blindfold means impartiality, and so forth. In the
case of the Rat King in the Emblemata by Johanna Sambucus,
the book depicts a scene with seven rats in a street,
tied together by the tail, though none of them appears

(24:30):
to be particularly elevated or king like. It just looks
like seven common rats tied together. And in fact, they
don't even look like rats. They look more like a
cross between ferrets and wiener dogs. And there is a
man looming over all of them, raising a baton, presumably
to beat them to death.

Speaker 1 (24:46):
But then there's another man raising a baton or something
that's facing away from them, like, yeah, I guess almost
like he's leading them, or maybe he's saying, hey, come
beat these rats.

Speaker 3 (24:57):
I don't know that's a good point. I don't understand
what the other guy's doing. Yeah, his backs to them.
He almost looks like they're both raising the sticks, and
this other guy looks like he's going to like whack
a big flower bush with it. I don't know. I've
got more on this page in a second, but I
just briefly did want to say that in early symbolic usage,
the idea of rats tied together by the tails seems

(25:22):
to be symbolically loaded significant to people. The image meant
something about the structures or causes that bound people inextricably
to one another. Now in the Emblemata, Johanna Simbucus explains
that there's like a poem underneath the illustration, saying that
there was once a man who was plagued by rats

(25:43):
for many years, and then one day a servant came
across a group of seven rats stuck together by the tail. Now,
at this point Hart didn't say anything else about the emblemata,
but I got really interested. I wanted to know what
the book said about this illustration, so I did some
real digging. I found on a full scan and transcription
of the Latin text of the Emblemata. I have no

(26:06):
idea what most of the text in this book is about,
but searching through the pages, I found some really good
pictures I just wanted to share with you. Rob One
is like a guy who's going out to I think,
pick some berries off of a bush, but he looks
like Exeter from this island Earth, and there's some storm
clouds in the background. Another one is I don't even
know how to describe this. There's like a giant baby

(26:29):
holding up these horns underneath his arms, but they're also
kind of snakes and they've got fruit coming out of them,
and he has a giant, I don't know, thread spool
on his head, and then there's some other guys looking
at him, like get a load of this guy. A
lot of the images in this book have the energy
of like my bird is better than your bird, or
this guy with a dog head is bothering my dog.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Yeah, yeah, Like there's something going on, there's some sort
of drama or or interaction, but it's all trapped in
some sort of cryptic imagery.

Speaker 3 (27:04):
There's one I really like of a guy who's got
like a fishing net and he's kneeling beside the water's
edge and he's like, yes, I'm going to touch this squid.
There's like a dead looking squid in the water.

Speaker 1 (27:15):
Yeah. And the sheep are watching on kind of I
guess with disapproval or approval. It depends if he's about
to grab that squid or if he's letting the squid go.
It does remind me of something that came up in
a past episode, like different ideas about whether it is
right to eat squid or if they should not be eaten.
So maybe this concerns that, but it could concern various things.

Speaker 3 (27:37):
I guess that may well be the subject matter. Another
one I liked is there's a dude in a very
wide brimmed hat approaching a man who appears to be sick,
laying on like a cot on the floor, and he's
coming at him with severed heads in each hand. Is like,
which of these heads is yours?

Speaker 1 (27:54):
Oh? This one is frightening.

Speaker 3 (27:56):
But anyway, coming back to the Ratking, Okay, I found
the page that it's on, and God help me, I
tried to manually translate this passage from the Latin via
Google Translate, at extremely rough results somewhat funny. I'm sure
I'm doing a horrible job getting the meaning here, but
here's the best I could come up with. So the
motto at the top of this image says capput seditionies tolendum,

(28:20):
which means to remove the head of the rebellion. And
here's the translation that I was able to come up with.
It is not a fictional story that the shrew mice
harassed the patrons and dug up the house too much,
don't a safe battle? That many had hid for years
being treated badly by the enemy. While the servant beholds

(28:42):
the seven hidden, their tails firmly tied. The lord tried
to torture all these with poison, but the labor was
long in vain. While the plan was slaughtering something behind
the treachery, not a single one appeared from it. In
this way, also the connections of the wild animals, these
traps must first be removed, for peace is a result

(29:03):
of the gods. When the author of the evil is slain,
so the good flows now. Notice it's interesting that this
is the first visual depiction of a rat king in
the way we understand it. But it doesn't use the
term rat king or any equivalent term. It just says,
you know, the rats, and then shows them tied together
this way and explains that they're tied by the tail.

(29:25):
As far as interpreting this text, I'm fumbling in the
dark because you know, bad translation. But the moral allegory
might be something about how the conjoined rats cannot be
defeated until like the author of the evil is undone
or the thing from which the evil flows is undone,
which maybe means, I guess, could refer to a so

(29:46):
called king of these rats, though there doesn't appear to
be one pictured, Or maybe it means just by maybe
it means like the nodding of the tale is the
author of the evil here, though in that case it
would seem kind of counterproductive to untie their tails if
you wanted to fight the rats. But honestly, I do
not know. I admit failure in discovering the meaning of this, because.

Speaker 1 (30:08):
One of the things about alleged real life encounters with
ratkings is that their tangled tales make them significantly easier
to kill. Yeah, because that is almost always what happens next,
or has happened to some degree as they are discovered.

Speaker 3 (30:26):
That's yeah, exactly right. So there is an interesting thing
I uncovered by this translate exercise, which is the line
about how this is not a fictional story. That's the
first thing it says, and I guess this means that
it is supposed to refer to a specific sighting of
a real rat king known to the author, but it
doesn't specify who, where or when.

Speaker 1 (30:47):
Hmm. You know. This also touches on something that I'll
mention in tomorrow's Monster Fact episode. The tying of a
knot has been a part of human magic since prehistoric times.
We see it in some of the most ancient records rituals.
We see it in the magics of the ancient Egyptians,
for instance. It seems to be pretty common to tie
a knot is to bind something, and in the case

(31:10):
of the rat king, perhaps to transform something. There seems
to be something inherently magical about knots.

Speaker 3 (31:17):
Yeah, yeah, I agree. And that so maybe the knot
in the tails is the thing from which the evil
flows in this poem, I'm not sure.

Speaker 1 (31:27):
Yeah, Or it's the person who tied the knot, or
or you know, there's so many ways to interpret it,
you know, certainly when you get into these other treatments
as well. If the not something that just occurs via proximity,
via overcrowding, via the complexities of urban living, or whatever
the you know, however one ends up interpreting it. I
also like how the image, the specific image, kind of

(31:47):
implies that the rats, all of them are running away
from each other, like all of them have a totally
different idea about which direction they should go. Almost kind
of a cartoonish situation where they all are trying to
solve the problem but cannot because they're not actually addressing
the problem at the root, their tails being tied to
get interesting.

Speaker 3 (32:06):
Yeah. Yeah, though, on the other hand, from what I
can tell, sources from this period do not really display
any propensity for understanding the plight of a rat from
the rats perspective. They pretty much all view rats as
just like a disgusting evil that must be destroyed.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
It's understandable, I mean, that is essentially the case, and
the tail of the rat is the most disgusting part.
I mean, I know we probably have some rat fans
out there. We're not talking about your pet rats. We're
talking about rats encountered in the wilds of human habitats
and agriculture and cities and so forth.

Speaker 3 (32:44):
Yeah, I mean, these were people who part of their
daily life was battling rat infestation. Coming back to Heart's
history here, so he describes a few other things in
the development of this idea of the rat king. The

(33:06):
term rat king in its modern usage, referring to rats
joined together by a knot of the tales, appeared more
and more in print after this. Hart mentions a seventeen
fifty seven dictionary by nol Gommel that included the term ratking,
defining it as a number of rats joined together by
their tails. There are also equivalent terms in French which

(33:27):
are usually thought to be related to the German rat
and koenig, though some have offered competing etymologies there. But
beyond the evidence of people using the term and evincing
knowledge of the concept going back to the sixteenth century,
there are also allegedly factual accounts of rat king finds,

(33:49):
so not just people saying, hey, here's what a rat
king is, but actual like I saw ratking. There was
one here at this time. So Hart says that from
fifteen sixty four to nineteen sixty three he was able
to turn up a total of fifty seven accounts of
distinct rat kings, though he says that some of these

(34:10):
cases are clearly deliberate forgeries or otherwise less than fully authentic.
So This certainly doesn't mean fifty seven instances where yes,
there was a real rat king the fifty seven claims,
with some subset of those being seemingly credible. The majority
of the accounts come from Germany. To name a few
early ones, there was a rat king of Donzig allegedly

(34:33):
made of nine rats found alive in sixteen twelve in
the loft of a house, mentioned in a letter from
a professor to a colleague. There was a rat king
of Strasbourg consisting of six live rats, which was reported
and depicted in illustration in the French gazette Mercury Galant
in sixteen eighty three. Apparently some of these reports came

(34:55):
with helpful explanations, for example, the knowledge that God sends
rat kings to me mankind to remind us of our wickedness,
and then like listing out the sins that the rat
king might be useful in calling to your attention, Like
remember when you did this, Yeah, here's a rat king
to remind you. And so heart goes on to chronicle
a bunch more of these fifty something odd accounts of

(35:17):
people stumbling upon ratkings. I'm not gonna go into all
these stories here because most of them have details that
are or at least in most cases where details of
the discovery are available, the details are pretty similar to
anecdotes we've already discussed, though often with additional just sad
grizzly details about the ways the rats were killed, often

(35:40):
involving boiling water. People just like pour boiling water into
a hole that they thought rats were in, and then
also religious explication of the various finds relating to sin
or deliverance from evil. Some of these rat kings were preserved,
often pickled in alcohol, and a few can actually still
be seen in museum collections today.

Speaker 1 (36:00):
And we're still finding rat kings apparently or allegedly. There
was one as recently as twenty twenty one in Estonia,
as reported by the rat King Desk at the Daily Mail,
of course, allegedly found in a chicken coop. There was
a I've got a paper about that one late, you've
got a story, okay, good about this one. Yeah. So
they are still allegedly occurring, and the details of their

(36:23):
discovery are still basically the same as they've always been.

Speaker 3 (36:27):
Now this brings us back to the question of where
do these things come from? Are these really things that
occur in nature. Does this just happen to rats sometimes?
Or are these hoaxes? Are these like the Ginny hannovers
that people would make out of the remains of like
rays and sea animals? Is this like the Fiji mermaid?

(36:48):
Some investigators have claimed that all rat kings are artificial,
practical jokes. They're all just like people taking dead rats
and tying the tails together. Heart However, after his instigation
does not agree with this. He does think that rat
kings occur naturally and are not all hoaxes. Though obviously
some of the ones that have been attested are hoaxes,

(37:11):
and we'll come back to arguments for that. But one
argument in favor of this is something that really is
kind of sad to relate but does inform our knowledge
on this, which is experimental rat kings. Hart said he
would not reproduce these experiments because he considers them cruel
and unethical, but he recounts attempts by a couple of

(37:32):
other researchers to create rat kings in the lab. And
I'm not going to describe the experiments in detail, but
the gist of the findings is that, first of all,
if you tie up the tales of already dead rats,
they do not look like the tail knots of allegedly
natural rat kings. So you just compare the rat kings

(37:52):
that are preserved or people have taken pictures of with
like you take dead rats and tie their tails together,
it doesn't look the same. They need to be alive
when their tails are joined together in order to create
the rat king knot ball. However, these rat king experiments
did find that if you anesthetize rats, put them to sleep,

(38:13):
and then glue their tail tips together, then you allow
them to wake up and run around and do their
thing for a period of time, their tails end up
tangled in a ball that does pretty much exactly resemble
the tails of ratkings.

Speaker 1 (38:30):
So kind of the difference to some extent between being
given the assignment of hey, go get your computer cable,
go get your mouse cable, and just go ahead and
tangle all that up, versus just leave it alone in
your backpack for a while, see what happens, you know,
and you know, maybe just tug at it loosely. You know,
it's like you're going to have a different sort of

(38:52):
not than the one that you might intentionally.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
Tie that's right. And in these these experiments, once the
glue was removed, after the rat king table not had
been created by live rats, mostly the tails stayed stuck together.
They had become tangled enough that they could not get
free even though the glue was dissolved.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Again, horrifying that this was someone's choice in experimentation. There's like, well,
we've got to We've got to create these rat kings
in order to fully test this. Like, it doesn't seem
like this was necessary. It's nice to have this information,
I guess, but it was certainly not ethically created.

Speaker 3 (39:31):
Yeah, our heart discusses these experiments with what feels like
some degree of scorn, and again he says he won't
reproduce them to check the results for himself. But if
these results are in fact accurate, this does give us
some information that we can use. It does make it
seem like ratkings could be created in nature if rats

(39:52):
tails were somehow initially stuck together while the rats were
still alive. And Heart goes on to offer another argument
and in favor of the idea of ratkings being a
real natural phenomenon, which is that with one exception, all
discovered rat kings are of one species, the black rat

(40:12):
Ratus ratus, in places where rats of other species exist,
So you might have brown rats and black rats occupying
the same farm, but if you find a rat king,
it's always the black rat. So if they were all hoaxes,
why wouldn't people be equally making them out of brown rats.

Speaker 1 (40:31):
That's a good point.

Speaker 3 (40:33):
And the black rat, of course has a longer and
more flexible tail than the brown rat, which seems again
like it would make a lot of sense that it
could become more likely entangled under the right or wrong circumstances. Also,
there are examples of so called kings being observed in
other animals, for example, squirrel kings that have been reported.

(40:56):
One example of this was in a zoo in South
Carolina in nineteen fifty one. Now, there have been a
number of hypotheses offered throughout history to explain rat kings
if they are natural phenomena. One idea is that they're
simply born that way. Heart does not think that's very likely,
because they're born with shorter tails, the tails grow longer

(41:18):
over the course of the lifespan, and also it's hard
to imagine how the rats would survive and do so
well until they get older. With their tails all tied
together in that way. Another idea is that the tails
might entwine as part of a fear response. As rats
huddle together, maybe when they're terrified by something, they have

(41:38):
a reaction that causes their tails to entwine, and then
they get tangled and stuck together. Another example. Another hypothesis
is the idea of rats huddling for warmth and somehow
allowing their tail tips to become frozen or stuck together
by a substance, perhaps frozen urine or some other kind

(41:59):
of liquid that freezes the tales together, or a sticky
substance that sticks the tales together, and then being initially
stuck together by that external adhesive material or frozen material,
they could entwine them crawling around, as we saw in
one of those experiments, crawling around and creating a natural
not just with their own activity and movement. But I

(42:22):
mentioned I was going to get to an actual scientific
paper about rat kings, and I want to talk about
that now. So this one was published in the Proceedings
of the Estonian Academy of Sciences, Biology and Ecology in
two thousand and seven by Andre Miluton, called rat kings
in Estonia. I looked up the author of this paper
and he's a zoologist and curator at the University of

(42:44):
Tartu National History Museum in Estonia. So the author begins
this paper by looking at the literary record of evidence
for the rat king and he cites Hart actually is
a major resource and notes that at the time of
this paper in two thousand and seven, there was still
significant question over whether rat kings are ever created naturally,
or they are they all hoaxes, and if they are

(43:07):
created naturally, what the cause is. By Miluton's count as
of the year two thousand and five, there were fifty
eight reliable accounts of rat kings, six of which were
physically preserved in some way, and across these accounts, the
number of animals joined within a rat king varies from
three to thirty two. The greatest number of rat king

(43:29):
claims come from Germany, followed by France, Poland, the Netherlands, Belgium,
and then finally one account from Indonesia, and with one exception,
all of the rat kings the author was able to study.
Rat king accounts the author was able to study consisted
of a single species, again, Ratus ratus the black rat.

(43:49):
The one rat species exception is the report from Indonesia,
which was allegedly made of the species Radus argentivanter, which
is commonly known as the rice field rat. Miliwton also acknowledges,
as Heart did, that outside of rats, there are a
few claimed observations of similar quote kings made of animals

(44:10):
like mice and squirrels, but the vast majority of alleged
rodent kings are agglomerations, specifically of Rattus ratus, the black rat.
But the recent discovery of a rat king at Saaru,
which is a small village in Estonia, in January two
thousand and five, seems to have prompted this new investigation,
and the author believes this rat king may shed some

(44:31):
light on how these masses of creatures are formed. Warning,
of course, about this story there will be some moderately
gruesome details about rat corpses and rat injuries to read
from the author's report about this Estonian incident quote. On
sixteen January two thousand and five, farmer Ray and Kuieve
discovered a huddle of squeaking rats on the sandy floor

(44:53):
of his shed in Saaru village, mon East Parish Voru County, Estonia.
The animals were unable to escape, and the farmer's son
killed them with a stick. After that, a cluster of
sixteen rats were excavated from the frozen sand. Their tails
were tangled in a knot that contained frozen sand. At
the time of discovery, only about nine of the rats

(45:15):
were alive. Obviously, the animals tried to dig themselves out
of the narrow tunnel, and the first rats buried the
last ones under the sand. The crater in the sandy
floor could still be seen even two months later.

Speaker 1 (45:29):
I do want to note that the article that I
referred to earlier about an Estonian rat king is actually
from years later.

Speaker 3 (45:36):
Oh, but the.

Speaker 1 (45:39):
Same individual is commenting on it. This is so it's
no uton in both cases.

Speaker 3 (45:43):
Okay, so there was another Estonian rat king after this,
I see. Yeah, So to pick up on this story,
So the farmer had no idea what he was looking
at here, didn't know anything about ratking legends, or so
he says, but no reason to doubt him, really, but
he thought it was weird. So he put this tangle
of rats out on a pile of planks so the

(46:03):
neighbors could come by and gawk at it, and then
about two months later a relative of the farmer's wife,
who was a journalist, was like, hey, what's up with this?
You know, maybe you should contact some experts. So this
relative guid in contact with some zoologists to see if
the find was significant, and this led to a bunch
of reports in local media and investigation in Estonian academic journals.

(46:29):
On March tenth of that year, the rat King was
taken to the Natural History Museum at the University of Tartu,
where it was submerged in alcohol for preservation and put
on display. And it consisted of thirteen adult black rats,
seven males and six females. There were originally sixteen, but
one was removed and discarded by the farmer, and then

(46:51):
two more were removed by a scavenger. The paper says
probably a pole cat, this, I guess. Seemingly while the
rat king was, you know, on neighborhood display on the
pile of planks.

Speaker 1 (47:03):
It is kind of humorous that his first inclination was like, oh,
I better put this out on the plank for the
neighbors to see. When, of course, we have these other
traditions and interpretations of the rat king as like a
dire omen or as a punishment from God. But you know,
as he said, he wasn't really familiar with any of
these traditions. He's just like, it's kind of neat. I

(47:24):
guess I'll put it out on the plank.

Speaker 3 (47:26):
Yeah, it's a low key spirit of curiosity. I appreciate it. So,
of the two rats that were scavenged taken away by
some kind of predator or animal, one of the tails
remained attached to the not so I guess by the
time the museum got the rat king there were thirteen rats,

(47:46):
but fourteen tails left. The remaining thirteen bodies have undergone
various types of damage and decay. Two of the rats
had their brains eaten by what no speculation here in
the paper, and it just says brains eaten. Another one
seems to have had its hind legs nod on, and
as the rat king dried out, the knot appears to

(48:09):
have loosened. So at the museum during examination, some of
the rats separated from the rest. But if you look
at the flesh in the parts of the tail that
were trapped in the knot, that flesh is highly compressed.
So the author concludes that the tail knot was originally
very tight when the animals were alive and the flesh
was higher pressure in it, I guess the rat was

(48:33):
more hydrated. The author compares this to two other rat
king reports from Estonia, both of which lack physical evidence.
One the so called rat King of Tartu, which allegedly
consisted of three rats and was found sometime around nineteen
fifteen to nineteen twenty. The other was found in a
place called Roika in the early seventies in the winter time,

(48:55):
made of eighteen black rats. So coming to the conclusions
the author draws from this examination and after reviewing the
literature and the others from history, including hearts observations, he's
raising the question how are these things made? A few options.
Number one, it's a hoax. These are artificially manufactured by people.

(49:17):
Number two, the knot is created naturally by chance due
to tail movements. Sometimes maybe you know, the rats are
wiggling around each other, so they end up with their
tails nodded. This could be related to the idea that
rats become frightened, you know, like heart rays, they become
frightened in their tails. In twine and then the third
option is the knot is created naturally when tails are

(49:39):
stuck together by some external binding process, such as by
gluing or freezing, and after examining the Saru Village rat king,
the author suggests that this probably is a natural phenomenon,
giving several reasons for doubting it was created artificially. First
of all, by all accounts, none of the family of
farmers who found it had ever heard of rat kings,

(50:02):
and they received no tangible benefits for their find except
I guess maybe the attention of neighbors who came by
to see the thing. And this doesn't rule it out,
but it does make it seem less likely. The next
one is a good point, as was raised by Heart.
It's impossible to tie the tails of living rats in

(50:22):
a knot without anesthesia, and it is not plausible that
this kind of rat anesthetic surgical procedure was carried out
on a rural farm. It's also not plausible that anesthesia
was used to create so many of these attested rat
kings from long ago. Also, remember about how the rats
they dried out and the tail knot became loose. The

(50:44):
author points out that the finder made no attempt to
tighten the knot of the dried tales, which you might
imagine someone would do if they were trying to carry
out a hoax. You know, they might try to tighten
it make it look better.

Speaker 1 (50:56):
Because they would have initially tightened the tails of perhaps
dead rats, and would have needed to do so again
to make sure that they're fined was still presentable.

Speaker 3 (51:06):
Right, so, the author does not think it's very likely
these rats were tied together artificially. Now, coming to that
second hypothesis, did the rats simply get their tails wrapped
around one another until an formed? Under this hypothesis, rats
that are nervous will attempt to wrap their tails around
one another, and maybe this happens until then forms. The
rat king at Tsaru, though, was discovered partially in its burrow,

(51:29):
where there's no reason to think the rats would be
especially nervous, and the story of the rat king at
Roika was found inside a wall, also a sheltered place,
And then the author in fact it doubts this could
even happen in principle, He writes, quote, I've kept wild
black rats in captivity for about eight years. Over this period,

(51:50):
hundreds of animals were disturbed by people every day during
the cleaning of cages, feeding, catching, or observing the animals.
But an entangling of tails has never been observed, So
Milutin is saying, I don't even think this happens. Much
less would be the explanation of how the tails end
up knotted in a ball. But then, coming to the

(52:10):
last hypothesis about the external binding process, Milutant writes, quote,
according to the third hypothesis for the formation of a
rat king, rats should first huddle together, as they usually
do when sleeping in the nest chamber, especially when it
is cold. If their tails become glued or frozen together,
animals try to free themselves by moving in different directions.

(52:33):
These chaotic movements may result in their tails becoming entangled
in a tight knot. Even after removal of the initial cause,
sticky substance or ice, they are no longer able to
escape from the knot. The sticky substance may be blood,
food items, nesting material, et cetera. And I would add
to that that Heart mentioned the possibility of just frozen urine.

Speaker 1 (52:56):
It's about to say, must we add to this list,
but I guess we should for science now.

Speaker 3 (53:03):
Miliuton argues that this last hypothesis about the freezing or
sticking together and then that leading to the knot is
the best explanation for the rat kings found in Estonia.
Reasons for this argument. First of all, ratkings in question
appear to have formed within the shelter, not outside of it,
so you know places where they would huddle together for warmth.

(53:24):
In stories of rat kings in which details about the
weather are known, it tended to be frosty weather. In fact,
the rat king of Soru was found right after the
village had experienced sub zero temperatures. Adding to this, apart
from the story attributed to Indonesia, basically all the stories
of rat king sightings are traceable to colder climates, especially

(53:44):
in Central and Eastern Europe, where there are two things,
cold winters and Rattus ratus. Ratus ratus is more common
in southern Europe where the winters are more temperate, and
in Northern Europe. In Canada, where the winters are colder,
the brown rat ratus or vegicus is the more common species.
So rat kings have and again to emphasize what I

(54:06):
said earlier, rat kings have really not been reported in
the brown rat. They have shorter, thicker, and less flexible tails.
So the author argues that rat kings are in fact
to genuine natural phenomena, though of course sometimes they may
be created by people, especially out of already dead rats.
They occur within the nest of the black rat during

(54:27):
cold weather via the gluing freezing process described earlier, and
finally says, most of the time we will never find
out about them.

Speaker 1 (54:36):
Quote.

Speaker 3 (54:36):
Not all rat kings that arise are found by people,
and not all finds are reflected in the press, much
less in scientific papers.

Speaker 1 (54:44):
Yeah, this is an idea that I saw discussed in
some other works as well, Like, not every rat king
that could assuming that rat kings do occur naturally, not
everyone that occurs naturally is going to turn up. Because
even though there are accounts of them seeming to be
well fed, and these tend to be, you know, the
ones that have been found, and they've been found in

(55:05):
say agricultural or urban environments where there's perhaps an abundance
of food, for the most part, they're doomed. They're going
to die, and in many cases they would die without
humans ever laying eyes on them. And then you may
have other cases where they're not reported. You know, perhaps
they it is seen as a dire omen and they're like,
better cover this up. I'm not going to put this

(55:26):
on a plank for the neighbors to see. But I
kept coming back, and I guess we've partially answered this.
But I was thinking, well, Okay, if all we need
are black rats, cold weather, and the presence of human
agriculture and or urbanization, then why do we not have
accounts of them from before around fifteen seventy six, Like,

(55:49):
certainly observations of a rat king would be novel, and
it makes sense that you would maybe hear about them,
say during the Roman period. But maybe indeed it does
have to do with it just not being like the
perfect combination of all these forces like again, cold weather,
black rats, human agriculture, urbanization, Like you have to have

(56:11):
everything clicking along just right, and then there's still going
to be a rare occurrence.

Speaker 3 (56:16):
Yeah, that all sounds right to me, though, I think
it is actually a good question you raise. Yeah, why
do these accounts first pop up in the sixteenth century,
especially when the term rat king with a different meaning
was already in common parlance.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
Yeah. Interesting, And again, knots have always been of interest
to human beings, and rats have been with us a
long time as well, you know, often seen in a
more ominous light, but also sometimes celebrated for various aspects
of the organism. So it again, it's the kind of
thing that, if observed, would surely be novel enough to

(56:54):
bear repetition in the written record, which of course is
inherently incomplete. We have to acknowledge that as well.

Speaker 3 (57:01):
Yeah, so I would say where I sit with this
is I think Heart and Milluton make good arguments, and
I would say, if I had to guess one way
or another, I would agree with them that rat kings
probably are naturally created, probably along the methods that the
Milluton highlights. But on the other hand, I would admit
that questions still remain and there are some reasons to

(57:23):
be skeptical.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
Now, I want to come back briefly to rat kings
and pop culture, sort of get some of the realistic
horror perhaps off the palette. Here we've touched on a
couple of the major examples of rat kings and pop culture,
at least the major one as far as the modern
audiences are concerned, but a couple of other ones that
I thought are worth mentioning the idea of a rat king,

(57:50):
particularly as possessing a collective intelligence, is one that has
fascinated me for a while. This idea originates, as far
as I'm aware, in the pages of the Bridge Is
comic two thousand and a d, specifically in the Adventures
of Halo Jones. These were written by the legendary comics
author Alan Moore and illustrated by the legendary comics artist

(58:11):
Ian Gibson, who sadly passed away earlier this week. One
of the greats. But in Halo Jones, the rat king
is displayed as using its advanced intelligence to control all
the rats in the world and then take over the
world in the process. I included an illustration from the
comic book here for you, Joe in black and white.

Speaker 3 (58:32):
Is it typing on a computer?

Speaker 1 (58:34):
I believe so. Yeah. These are mass communicating rat kings
right here.

Speaker 3 (58:39):
You never know when you're talking to somebody on the internet.
They could be a rat king.

Speaker 1 (58:43):
It could have no way. It absolutely could be. Now
related but separate concept is that of the cranium rats
and dungeons and dragons. These are psionically enhanced rats. So
these are rats that the e lithids or the mind
flares have toyed with and they've changed their brains in
order to use them as spies to go out and
especially into like the human world and see what's up.

(59:05):
But the thing I always liked about cranium rats is
the idea that one of these is essentially just a rat.
If you encounter one cranium rat, you're just encountering a rat.
But if you have two cranium rats, well, they have
the collective intelligence, the psionically connected brain of two rats together,
and it builds from there. So in great numbers, cranium
rats have a vast collective intelligence. And in the world

(59:28):
of dungeons and Dragons, they have enhanced psionic abilities, so
they'd be able to like basically like lash out at
you with scanner powers.

Speaker 3 (59:36):
WHOA, So you really don't want to let them get
on the computer less like Cameron Vail, they hack into
your mainframe mainframe via scanner powers through the phone lines.

Speaker 1 (59:45):
Yeah. Another frequently cited use of of of rat kings
in pop culture. I believe Liz Lemon's old boyfriend Dennis
Duffy on Thirty Rock claims in one episode to have
seen a rat king perhaps in the sub or what
have you. That one definitely stuck in my mind, But
I'd forgotten about this one. It's been a long time

(01:00:06):
since I've read Stephen King's nineteen eighty six novel It,
but there is mention of a rat king, and it's
vast pages. I had to look it up to see
exactly what is said. But on page eight hundred and
seventy two of the kindle edition, you have the kids
exploring the Nyebolt House. This is the you know, the

(01:00:26):
Haunted House. If you've seen the movie, you know what
I'm talking about, the dark, decayed house that they go
to and Ritchie opens up a cupboard, looks inside, and
then reports what he has seen. He says, quote, there's
hundreds of them in there, their tails, they were all
tangled up, bill nodded together like snakes.

Speaker 3 (01:00:45):
Creepy. So page eight seventy two is that near the
end of chapter one.

Speaker 1 (01:00:50):
Yes, I have a physical copy around here somewhere, but
there's no way I was going to like scan through
it and find one mention of a rat king. So
I had to pony up by the can edition, do
a word search and find out exactly where King mentions
rat Kings because there's a lot of horror, plenty of
horror in that book to go around.

Speaker 3 (01:01:08):
Oh yeah, so.

Speaker 1 (01:01:09):
That's just a taste of some uses of the rat
king and pop culture. But there are others. So if
there are any that are near and dear to your
heart do you think are particularly insightful, write in. We
would love to hear from you. Do not send us
your ratkings, though. If you find a rat king, please
find an acceptable local authority to report this. All right,
we're going to go ahead and close this episode out again,

(01:01:30):
look to the Monster Fact tomorrow from a little more
from me regarding rat king esque matters. But then we'll
be back on Thursday with an episode on you Guessed
It The Nutcracker.

Speaker 3 (01:01:41):
Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.
If you would like to get in touch with us
with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest
a topic for the future, or just to say hello,
you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow
your Mind dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:02:04):
Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For
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