Of Humans and Squids, with Martin Wallen

In this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Robert chats with Martin Wallen about his 2021 book “Squid,” which covers the history of humanity’s scientific, folkloric and literary interest in cephalopods – from Aristotle’s understanding of the creatures to their treatment in weird fiction of the 20th and 21st centuries.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of My
Heart Radio. Hi, welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind.
My name is Robert Lamb, and it's just me today.
Joe is away from work, so I reached out to
Martin Wallen, Professor emeritus at Oklahoma State University, an author

(00:25):
of numerous books, including the one book Squid, part of
the Reaction Animal series that will be discussing here today.
The book is out in both digital and physical forms,
and I highly recommend it as it dives into not
only science and natural history, but also mythology, folklore, and literature.
So without further ado, let's jump right into the interview

(00:48):
and discuss all of this with Martin. Hi, Martin, welcome
to the show. Thank you very much. Your book, Squid,
part of Reactions Animal series, came out last year, and uh,
as I started reading in our ease, this is exactly
the sort of book that we'd love to discuss on
the show. So if I make cobble together a couple
of questions here, where did your interest in cephalopods come from?

(01:11):
And how did this book come together? Right? Well, that's
that's a nice question to be good with. UM. I
had written UM two other books about animals UM, one
about foxes, which is also part of the Reaction Animal series.
UM and I've written a book about dogs UM. The

(01:33):
book but dogs I actually started before the fox book,
and that really arose out of UM relationships I've had
with horses UM. Oddly enough, but because I've been around
horses for a long time, I've increasingly begun to wonder
how to engage with UM or how to write about

(01:57):
an animal UH with whom we half engaged in a
completely non verbal way UM and most effectively UH through
touch UM and other forms of sensory perception. UM. And
there's a mode of being on horses as known as
being quiet UM. But I could never quite work out

(02:21):
our way to deal with that, So UM and I
began thinking more pointedly about my relationship with dogs and
how we interact with dogs generally, which led me to
think about relationships with non domestic animals like foxes and
so on. UM and then UM I began to think, well,

(02:45):
what about preachers that are even more UM alien to
us creatures We probably don't interact with UM on a
daily level UH the way we interact with UM domestic
animals or even the wild animals that might be passing
through our neighborhood UM, and I really began to question

(03:11):
what animal might I um explore just in a perhaps
a theoretical way uh that would enable me to at
tackle questions like, umbly, what is it like to be
in a world with unknown, unknowable creatures not only once

(03:33):
we have to remain quiet about, but once we can
barely even begin speaking about. Um. And so I started
exploring squids uh and found them enticingly bizarre uh and
enticingly weird um and really just took up a series

(03:56):
of questions about about those strange, odd animals and how
um human cultures have over the millennia tried to describe them,
or account for them, or express their anxieties about them
and so on. And that's where I is up. Yeah.
I really love the way that you you tackle the

(04:18):
subject of of the of the animal of the squid
in this book, because you you know, you approach it
from the you know, the philosophical and the naturalist viewpoint.
You get into the scientific research both um current and
UM and and of the previous century and so forth,
and then then you get into this idea of of
of literary treatment mythological treatment, etcetera. So it's a it's

(04:42):
I love the net that you cast in this. But
you begin with Aristotle in the fourth century BC philosopher's
attempts to understand and chronicle cephalopods. What did Aristotle get
right and what did he get wrong? Well, first of all,
I by push someone an ancient writer like Aristotle is

(05:04):
that he's really working within his cultural context. So in
his view and in the view of let's say, the
classical Greek world, he got pertually everything right. Um. What
we would see that he got uh wrong in that
regard is when he describes the semple plods um as bluntless,

(05:28):
because of course they're not bloodless. They simply have a
different color of blood than um most of those terrestrial
animals um. And um. What he makes uh references to
certain qualities, like the fact that they lay imperfect eggs um,

(05:49):
because we think, well, those are squid eggs, and they're
appropriate to squids, and they're like squids, uh, And that
they're aquious. But by imperfectly means um that's the term
he uses it in reference to other animals as well.
By perfect he really means that the eggs um don't

(06:10):
remain uh, don't stay keep the same appearance um that
they have when they're first laid by the mother squid.
O the way, let's say chicken eggs are UM. Lizard
eggs basically are laid as hard shelled eggs, and say
that way until they're hatched. UM. So that seems like, um,

(06:33):
something incorrect in our thinking, UM, but it's actually appropriate
to Aristotle's um uh conceptual view of the world. Well,
we generally UM say that Aristotle got right, of course,
UH his physical descriptions of of really all the animals

(06:58):
and everything he he writes about UH. And that's that's
that's really what UM puts him at the very foundation
of modern um natural philosophy and ultimately modern science, because
he does pay a lot of attention and great care

(07:22):
to the physical appearance of squids UH. And and that
enables him to make certain rudimentary uh classifications among the
different kinds of squids. UM. It's also important to bear
in mind, and maybe this is on the wrong side,

(07:42):
but UM, it's more of a qualification that Aristyle, being
a Greek and a Greek of the fourth century BC, UM,
really stayed pretty close to shore Um. He most of
his observations of squids were done on the Isle of

(08:03):
Lesbos from the Gulf of kolani Um, rather than out
in the deeper waters. So that means that the squids
he saw were the smaller inshore varieties of squids, and
possibly some of the some of the larger varieties which

(08:24):
he probably would have seen on fisherman's boats or as
uh dead specimens that floated ashore um, and those would
have been less common to him. Uh. And so it
doesn't offer that many accounts of us those squids, and

(08:44):
nor does he really dealt into the differences between inshore
and the offshore squids. So uh no, that's that's what
I would say, is let's say right and wrong gish
about um accounts. Now you mentioned the fisherman, of course,

(09:05):
and that leads to the question like, what was the
culinary view of of of squids and their relatives during
Aristotle's time? Well, that's that's intriguing view. I think almost um,
everyone um who doesn't vegan has had calamari on our

(09:27):
different kinds of squid. Um. Squids are nice to eat, um,
and they were nice to eat then, except that the
ancient Greeks had a much more emp different view of
of what we call seafood um than than we do.
And that in biblemence comes from uh general general revolver

(09:51):
towards the sea, which was commonly referred to as being
simply perfidious because it was a dangerous place. Uh and
uh you could think you, being a human, could think
um down below the surface and never be seen again. Uh.

(10:11):
And fish, including squids um, were known to eat humans.
And so the idea of eating an animal that eats
humans uh just tends to stir the stomach, but also
tends to um rub against the philosophical if you have
madam madam psychosis, which would suggest that if um squids

(10:34):
eating humans, then we are essentially eating humans that have
been transformed and so squids by their digestive tract uh.
And that's something that that seemed to be immoral um
and and um culpable, so that people who did eat squids,
and they're numerous references to the um ethicals. Do people

(10:59):
who did squizz worse somehow morally suspect uh and somehow Um,
we're either indulgent or not to be frosted um. Part
of that sew I think it's gets um um exacerbated
later on by the high morality of someone like Plato

(11:24):
who really lives sort of titanical or had a puritanical
view of the world. Uh, and so he would keep
really condemned U. Some of the UM writers who focused
on their their diets and um what they enjoyed eating

(11:46):
like squids. So all it was it was people people
ate them almost certainly, but um they were unhappy about
eating them, at least in the Greek world. Uh. And notably,
there are very few um visual despictions of squids or

(12:09):
even marine life UM, apart from the sat dolphins until
pretty late in the Greek world. Now, why is there
so much terminological confusion concerning squids, octopuses, and cuttlefish and
classical literature? This is something you discussed in the book
right right. Well again that that largely comes from Aristotle

(12:34):
UM and who Aristotles, when he was describing the cephalopods
UM really grouped them all under the general general heading
of malakoi was basically means um um soft bodied creatures
or as I like to think, squishy, squishy creatures UM.

(12:57):
And he didn't go into that much detail, and distinguishing,
as I said earlier, the inshore from the offshore UMU squids.
He distinguishes UH squids from cuttlefishes and octopuses, but even
there he refers to UH polly plods UH. And then

(13:20):
he'll refer to the cuttle fishes, sometimes using the term
cps um UH and other times as polypus um and
other times as tooth is or other times still as
truth oaths UH. And as as later commentators and translators

(13:41):
UM are obviously confused about exactly which creature he was
referring to. UM. The confusion has us to do with
um occupuses, that does with the two decapods cuttle fishes
and squids UM and there um Aerosold say that the

(14:02):
he does, he does allow for a certain distinction, and
that is based on the quality of their flesh. So
cuttle fishes, which swim closer to shore, he says, UM
absorb more of the heart um surface hard substances of

(14:22):
the earth, so they have um a bone running through
their um bodies with the cuttle bone UM, and that
he referred to as the um cbi or the phobia
bone UM. And then the the squids He then just

(14:43):
referred to the tooth and the tooth tooth, And it's
hard really to know again what he meant by the
tooth is which has the ending i s and tooth oath,
which has the ending o s UM. But it does
seem that that that's largely my deduction as based on

(15:06):
UM lexicons and UH simply the fact that gave more
attention to the truth is UM that that one truths
refers to the instore crystals refers to the up floor UM.
So there's really a confusion of what he The confusion
is partly due to his his vagueness UM and his accounts,

(15:29):
and to the later confusion of UH of commentators and translators,
largely again because those commentators would themselves not have ventured
out into the sea to look at squids or for
that matter, of cold fishes or occupuses. But we're probably
writing and unlocked the libraries UH, copying or summarizing um

(15:56):
Aristotle's texts, so that that confusion does become pretty much
um um a quality of squid or even m squishy
um uh. Natural history for the next many years, let's say,

(16:18):
the next thousand or so years, and as as you
later discussed in the book, and we still have what
what would encounter cases where something we're calling a squid
is actually not technically a squid. Right you mean the
um wasn't there? Uh when when you start talking about
the vampire squid. Oh yes, yes, yes, of course, um right,

(16:41):
technically that it is not a squid. That's it's actually
more of an octopod because it doesn't um, it doesn't
really have the same layout of of arms and testicles
that squids do. Uh so yeah, so you're right us
that's one of the strangest um creatures um and also

(17:06):
a creature was one of the most delightful names of
the vampire squid from hell um. Uh yes, but almost
certainly as are let's at least possibly it's not actually
as squid. Yeah. I love the the illustrations we see
of this particular cephalobod in the book. One of them

(17:30):
I was really taken with. I hadn't seen there seen
this particular illustration before, but the artist almost it seemed
like they were trying to make the squid appear like
a skull. Am I alone in uh interpreting it this way? Yes,
I think that's that's sort of appropriate. That's that's I
believe carl Um illustration Um, oh no, I have right here.

(17:52):
It does look like skull um because it's it's black,
and it's it's in this particular stration, it's upside down,
so it has the sort of duelish mouth that seems
to be in sort of a hideous grin underneath two eyes.
And then there's a no socket. Right. That's that's that's

(18:15):
sort of a fastful rendition of vampires than now, going
back to the two ancient writings here Plenty of the Elder.
Of course, his accounts inevitably come up when anytime we're
discussing Western understandings of the natural world. And I was

(18:36):
really taken by a bit from Plenty that you discussed
in the book. Can you explain the proposed connection between
the quote lavish nature of liquid and large marine animal sizes? Well,
plenty um very much an air of Aristotle was describing

(18:57):
the world as as he thought, uh and describing the
world very much as a Roman. So when he looked
out onto bodies of water, lakes, rivers, and the sea, um,
he saw that there there there was a large form
that was basically being fed continually by rainfall and other

(19:21):
forms of precipitation. So that's that's the nourishment that he
sees taking place UM. And then he draws a basic
analogy between h two different realms of the world. On
the one hand, there's the terrestrial realm populated by humans
and land animals, and then the um aqueous world uh.

(19:46):
And she says every form of of of um uh
life that exists on land must also have its counterpart
in the sea uh and the cious realm. But because
the ocurious realm is more obviously nourished by precipitation uh

(20:08):
and is by precipitation, which is like uh, the acicus
realm than land is like precipitation UH. That means then
that the animals are nourished themselves more um than land
animals are, so they grow to greater uh scientists, even
monster sizes. And because water is more fluid, they also

(20:32):
are liable to take uh more varied shapes uh and
even diverged into a completely different animals that do not
exist on land. UM. So that analogy is central to
plenty kind of thinking about natural history UM. And it's

(20:57):
also a clear indication that he's thinking specilatively, since of
course you didn't have a bathosphere uh and couldn't see
the below the surface of the dark sea. Um. But
it's also on the basis of that that um uh

(21:18):
that later accounts of sea monsters of claimed to have
some basis in um natural history. In fact, I also
love a bit that you from Plenty that you share,
because this is one of those quotes that I guess
when you're when you're looking at things Plenty shared, I
guess sometimes you know second or third hand about things

(21:40):
in the world. Sometimes they may feel a bit detached
from the actual reality. But this is one of those
quotes that that I feel like actually after just speaks
across the ages and and matches up with like my
experience of seeing octopi in the wilder or any cephalopods
in an aquarium. And that is quote that squids are

(22:00):
virtually incomprehensible to those who have never seen one because
they continually shift their appearance by moving their arms and
changing colors. UM. I don't know about you, but I
thought that really had a real ring of solid truth
to it. Absolutely uh. And as I mentioned at the
very beginning, would my interests uh and squids Uh, it's

(22:23):
just that incomprehensibility, how can there be such an animal?
The simple the basic word supple pod the official term
for those whole group of animals, really means the head
of feet, right suffalo and then pod for feet. That
makes no sense, and that name encapsulates the oddness and strangeness,

(22:49):
the alien quality of of these these creatures. Um. And
they they really do challenge our basic sense So what
an animal should be like m or act like? Because
indeed they do change shape continually, they change colors continually, UM.

(23:11):
And they in many ways they should not exist. Uh.
There even questions that at various times in history about
whether they should be categorized as animals or instead as plants. Uh.
And so they've always been a real mystery uh and

(23:31):
a real challenge to our ability to create um taxonomies,
UM and explanations and based on categories of animals and
their relations to one another, because there's always the troublic
question of how do we do this head of feet

(23:52):
in relation to ourselves? Um? And who's backwards? Are we
built backwards or are they m Now you mentioned the mysterious,
and of course you spent a lot of time in
the book discussing mythologies and folklore concerning various cephalopods, and
of course you get into the into the giant squid

(24:12):
quite a bit as well. UM. So so getting more
into the scientific realm here, can you tell us what
role Japterese Steamstrup played in bridging squid myth and squid
science of the nineteenth century. Yeah, that's that's a great
question for UM. Lots of reasons UM stage up. It's

(24:34):
really the turning point from the tradition of UH, let's say,
squid lower based on legends and UM uncertainty UH and
the terminological vagueness that we were talking about two modern

(24:54):
classifications that UM made possible scientific studies about squid since
cephalopods UM. So for a number of years, especially in
the North Atlantic area, there had been UM. Of course,
there were the legends of the creek and the big

(25:16):
monsters that swallowed up UM ships or that people would
mistake as islands and land on and perform religious rituals
and and then be swallowed up and dragged down to
the sea. UM. And those legends were intermixed with a

(25:37):
number of beachings of giant squids UH, the Artitude of
ducks UM and other sightings of squids UH. And there
were recorded as historically evince uh really starting um uh
and let's say the sixteenth century by Guillame Brondelas who

(26:00):
uh described um uh strange creatures that he referred to
as um monkfish are episcopal fish, and he uh illustrated
his roll delayed, that is, illustrated his accounts with drawings
of of um preachers that had fins instead of feet

(26:24):
and hands. But we're wearing a monk's habit or cardinals
miter um and that those sorts of accounts really verd
on on um uh my and uh fabulous accounts um.

(26:45):
But there was still an effort to provide some kind
of empirical credence to the existence of the unbelievable monsters um.
So as a number of sightings and beach things occurred.
By the middle of the nineteenth century, uh stain stroke
came along um and fortuitously no one gave him a

(27:12):
beak from one of the um uh giant squids that
had beached um and Uh. He delivered a lecture in
eighteen fifty four where he went through all the different
accounts of sea monsters by Rondelay Uh and others, and

(27:34):
he people are in the kind of a literary analysis
of all the descriptions um which had probably been um
um gathered by Rondalay and others from from fisherman's accounts
who tried to describe these bizarre creatures they had seen
UM and on the Statestrup then concluded that all these

(27:58):
accounts were referred to one very real creature. Uh. And
so after a lengthy series of extra jesys of these
various accounts, he quite dramatically um presented to his audience,
Uh this beak he had been given a very imposing

(28:22):
uh beak. A squid speak is like a hawk's beak
or a parents beak, So it's really sharp and curved
and mekets to tear flesh. Uh. So this is a
good size speak Uh. And he with that sort of

(28:43):
dramatic flourish of showing his audience to speak um, he
was really to to change the accounts of seafarers and
and let's say the legends of monsters into a verifiable
uh animal that could be given a scientific name. And

(29:07):
uh he's the one who then gave it the name
Arctutus ducks. Uh. And with that name, uh, he basically
cleared up the ambiguity that existence Aristotle and he uh
allowed for a focused and discipline study of UM of

(29:30):
squids based on UM, a real taxonomy, and a taxonomy
that lays out UM different genera of squids, different species
of squids, and is able to map their locations around
the world. So m in in short stage really marks

(29:52):
the transition from the world of myth and uncertainty and
ambiguity to the world of modern empirical study. Now, speaking
of modern study, one of the big topics that comes
up in all this, and you discussed in the book
of course, is the is the our attempts to understand
cephalopod intelligence UM, and you bring up some of our

(30:16):
responses to cephalopod intelligence and even the idea that they
could be quote the primates of the sea. What are
what are the challenges and limits in play when it
comes to understanding the mind of the squid? Well, the
cheligence a player or or are great. Even even though

(30:36):
UH there is such thing as uh scientific study of
squids and uh um the science of squids is growing.
The taxonomy of squids is UM expanding exponentially as more
and more species in general are being discovered continually UM.

(30:56):
But on the other hand, exactly what these creatures on
her still remains UM cheezing, because they're these strange creatures
whose heads consists of feet UM. But they also have
sizeable brains UM, and they show a real intelligence UM.

(31:18):
The marine biologists differ. Mather, as pointed out, I think
most valuable, valuably UM that squids exist in on courting
her hair worlds away from us UM. And even though
she says, even though their their brains may not have
quite the same UM structure as ours, they can still

(31:41):
be seen to work in analogous ways to our brains,
and therefore their intelligence can be seen to be somewhat analogous,
albeit bizarre. UM. It's worth noting that the squid brains
UM regulate movement through visual cues UM. That makes UM

(32:05):
their perception UM and their movement their response to that
perception almost simultaneous. In fact, so simultaneous has to be
virtually the same event. Whereas let's say, in humans, most
land creatures, UM, we perceived something and it might take

(32:31):
a second or two to to respond UH, squids perceive
and UH respond instantaneously. UH. Scientists have focused UM, particularly
on what they call it the giant act on a
very large nerve fiber that radiates throughout the wall of

(32:56):
the mantle the tubular part of the squid. UH. This
this nerve about a millimeter and diameter UH, really the
largest nerves of any any animal in the world. And
it's the size of the nerves that is able to

(33:18):
enables the squid to transmit um as perceptions from its
eyes and other receptors around this body instantaneously into as
musculature to move UH so that they can UM. They
can propel themselves by by shooting out streams of water

(33:40):
within milliseconds of of UM perceiving something that they want
to attack UH and UM their intelligence that really is
I think can cannon should be described as want of
movement onto one hand and predation on the other hand.
Or really that's that's us the same as well, because

(34:02):
they really are predators UH. And they are hyper sensitive
UM to the UM their environment. UM. They have a
number of organs and mechanisms for perception, not just their
eyes but long their their entire bodies UM that are

(34:26):
able to perceive well beyond our five sences. They don't
have hearing almost certainly, but they are able to perceive
um motion uh and motion and a very very fine
degree um. And they also then can uh famously change

(34:47):
colors um flash colors brilliantly illuminate themselves through chromatic fours,
which are essentially um facts of of pick miants that
cover their entire body uh and that can be um
contracted and um opened um will to change the color

(35:13):
of the skin UM. And as these sacs open and shut,
expand and contract um, they reveal uh some routiforms underneath,
and the routifors reflect light back uh as a kind
of iridescence that's a different kind of light, is more

(35:35):
of a polarized light, which we humans aren't really geared
to perceive. That we can see a kind of sheen
the way you would see on a soap bubble. And
these changes, these chromatophores are really controlled again by the
squid's eyes. So movement color changes are all instantaneous and

(36:00):
um very much part of squid intelligence, governed by astonishing
powers of perception, uh very dominant and and uh impressive
nervous system uh and a brain so to do them
as primates of the see they are again predators um

(36:24):
and they pretty much live not at the top of
the food chain, because of course they're eaten by many
other creatures. But uh, their intelligence uh and their athleticism
certainly makes them formidable. Uh so UH definitely puts them
at the top of many people's hierarchy than now. One

(36:51):
of the one of the things that you mentioned here
that really blew me away. You discuss handling and messengers
research into quote unquote squid talk in touch on their
idea that that the squid in particular may engage in
not only play, but dishonesty in communication. What are we
to make of this? Right? Right? That's that's that is

(37:13):
a delightful UM discovery by the scientists. UM. First of all,
uh zniverer Mather again UM has studied um what she
refers to as squiddish, the language of squids. UM just
categorized that through studying um various postures and light flashes

(37:37):
that squids uh make, so that she's able to come
up with something approaching a lexicon. UM. And for the
most part, UM, scientists and others UH look at the
lexicon as as UM simply being informational the way we

(37:57):
usually think of animal communication being informational. UM. Birds UM
UH squawk and chirp, perhaps to say, um, um, good morning,
or you and I are boyfriend and girlfriend, or there's
a predator close by or something like that. UM. And

(38:19):
if we think of if we start to think as
Roger Hanlon and John Messenger suggests that perhaps squids are
not simply communicating information, but they're creating misinformation UM disinformation UH.
That suggests that there's something else going on a higher

(38:42):
level of communication. And it suggests that there might even
be a let's say, a performative quality to uh squiddi
ish uh to squid communication, which is say, it's it's
not literal, it's not simply um informational um, but it's

(39:04):
something else UM. And that this honesty play a big role.
And let's say literary allusions. So the very very much
of literature UM does not simply consist of information UM
relayed about something. It's not simply uh the empirical um

(39:28):
descriptions of Aristotle, but it's suggestive UM, it's elusive UM.
It relies on puns um, and it can rely on jokes. UH.
So that suggestions that UM. Squids are not simply um,

(39:52):
let's say, unimaginative animals who are merely saying food here.
Pred sure there, but UM perhaps have the capacity for
UM joking UM or UM imagination. But then since qui

(40:14):
squids are undeniably major predators UM and even cannibals, we
have to ask, UH, what are there jokes or what
are they imagining? UM? Are they making jokes about us,
which is discomforty um UM? Or are they making jokes

(40:39):
with a punchline I will you um? Or if they're
jokes are not found funny by other squids, will they
be eaten? UM? That's a poling room for UM jokes
of our own. And also, UM worry that's that's amazing. UM.

(41:02):
Now a lot of that, I guess we're talking about information,
you know, bicephalopods for cephalopods. But but coming back to
the topic of what cephalopods can do for us. UH,
that's something that that certainly drives a lot of the
research you point out, UM, what are the brightest possibilities
here and what are the arguments for for eating cephalopods

(41:25):
even if they might be primates of the sea. Because
I know that, UM. I know people who, for instance,
are pastytarians but don't eat cephalopods or make a distinct
choice not to eat them. Based on some of the
intelligence research out there, well, the argument for UM eating

(41:45):
UM self pods is simply they're enormous numbers UM they
they UM they swarmed throughout personally UM all UH oceans
and ease except for the Black Sea UM and and
alive quantities, and they are highly are the fisheries UH

(42:13):
years around squids are very successful in catching large quantities
of them UM and that's important UM in this time
of industrial fishing, when many species of a qualtify life

(42:33):
are being simply wiped out through the drag netting and
other forms of industrial fishing, so that um it really
has become a mass produced kind of of food which
are depleted, specially everything squids seems to be impervious to that,

(42:57):
or at least so far UM and UM. That's that's
really the argument. I'm I'm gonna hold off on what
it means to something of intelligence for just a second,
because there are other possibilities or um ways humans have

(43:20):
sought to use to exploit UH squid UH. One of
course is they're the giant axon um, so that scientists
have begun to harvest squids just for that nerve UM
and the hopes of using them to uh read juvenate

(43:45):
UM humans who have become paralyzed, who have lost neurological functions. Uh.
And that's that's a big hope for the pharmaceutical industry,
or even suggestions that because of the squids um a
capacity change colors that maybe um, some UM genius will

(44:10):
find a way of transferring that used by the military
industrial complex to allow UM let's say, camouflage in the battlefield,
so that um um just as in phil Kate Dick's
novels Scanner Darkly, where the policemen where these scanner suits

(44:33):
that change their physical configuration completely. Uh. So let's say
warriors could change the films completely so that nobody could
see them. UM. So that sounds pretty far fetched, but
UM it's it's perhaps on at least the table um

(44:55):
as for eating them, or let's say it's loading them
in any sense UM for the military or U for
um uh medical uses. I think those arguments really wrestled
doing them as resources UM, overlooking at intelligence UM or

(45:18):
best as or at least disqualifying UM squid intelligence being
less than human intelligence. UM. It's long been our tendency
to say, uh, whatever is alien to us. Whatever is
different from me. Uh, it cannot be as good as

(45:41):
I am. Um And um, it can't even be real
because it's not human, it's not really intelligent. Uh. And
I might I might even mentioned that. Um. I submitted
my books to the press. One of the editors took
real issue with my prossses to the squid humor. Um.

(46:06):
She said, Uh, that's impossible. There's no such thing as
humor in the animal world. Has never been documented. Um. Well, UM,
I don't know. I disagree, as I said, I spent
plenty time around forces, and I know that they could
be real jokesters. Um. And I know dogs can be jokesters.

(46:27):
And uh, fox hunters around the world will tell you
about foxes playing real tricks. Um. And So there is
such thing as humor um. But it's hard to fathom
of what self podh sepopod intelligence would be. But UM,
I think it's also important to recognize. I'll just um

(46:51):
challenge your farshating friends UM further and say, well, certainly
all kinds of fish, all creatures of intelligence. Um. And
we have to ask ourselves if it's just different from ours,
or if it really is lesser than ours, which would

(47:12):
justify as eating a lesser being. UM. I don't know. Now,
you of course get into cephalopod evolution, uh, taking us
back six hundred million years. But but then something special
seems to have occurred during the struggle with fish and
marine reptiles. Can you describe what what what what we

(47:33):
think happened here? UM? Well, of course at all highly expectative, UM.
But around four hundred and fifty million years ago, I
believe this is what you're referring to, UH, what is
always been called as the Devonian extinction, when UM pretty
much all almost all life UM disappeared UM, and slowly

(48:01):
animals began to reappear UM in in various parts of
the world, but decidedly not in the deepest oceans because
oxygen levels there are are low. But stuffle pods seem
to do okay. Uh. They moved offshore. UM. Squids in particular,

(48:28):
UM moved into the deeper water. So that UH we
again look back to Aristotle's to um accounts of the
inshore and the offshore squids. Uh. The offshore squids grew
bigger because squids generally lost UM, their shells, their molusky

(48:51):
and shells UM. They UH we're able to move faster
UM and they didn't have the bones that fishes had, UH,
so that they were able to um prey upon the
fish that previously preyed upon them because boneless squids were

(49:13):
able to move much faster and react more quickly than
bony fishes could UM. So that was that was one
of the theoretically one of the key steps in the
development of of or squids to somewhat modern squids that

(49:34):
we see fairly recently, relatively speaking. And I've already alluded
to changes going on in the oceans today. Is there
a cephalopod explosion happening in the world today? Are we
seeing changes in cephalopod populations? Well, it certainly seems so
in many ways um UH. Popular presses around the world

(49:58):
have referred to squid blooms or squids invasions, where large
populations of supple pods show up in a particular area
UM and it seems that that could be happening because
of of UM climate change, so that UM the occurrence

(50:23):
are shifting. That that's one explanation for why UM humble
squids have shown up in large numbers in certain years
around Monterey Bay, California. UM uh and have social large
numbers that they have washed ashore UH and and and

(50:46):
you know, along by the by the millions UM, causing
course um serious sidetic issues. UM. It's also possible because
of which to say that the explosion of squids also
possible UM because of of the depletion of other fish UM,

(51:08):
of fish that might be eating squids or competing with
squids for um other food. UM. Maybe um whales have
been uh depopulated enough to allow for explosions of squid.
But it's also possible that people are starting to pay

(51:31):
more attention to squids um. Uh. When there are putitive
squid bloom somewhere, then fishing fleets will swarm to a
particular area um and of fish that area heavily UM.
And Since squids have a fairly short line of very

(51:52):
short life, generally about a year UM, they can disappear
and then reappear again uh later on, and as they
move through the currents, they can appear in a different
place uh and again in large numbers UM I just
mentioned uh squid breed infant large numbers that scientists have

(52:15):
referred to them as the protein pump of the sea.
So that ass say UH breed in one part of
the sea and then moved to another part of the sea,
die and decompose. UH. They provide nutrients for other fish,
other aquatic live forms UM so that UM they moved

(52:40):
around in that way as well, UM so UM. At
any rate, it seems that squids are highly adaptable if
as climate change happens. UM. Squids, more than bony fish
UM and other UM aquatic creatures UM, are very willing

(53:02):
to change. UH. They're very willing to move into areas
that had previously been thought to be incompatible with squids
or cephalopods or really any form of life UM. And
I think that the bottom line there's we see that

(53:22):
almost certainly squids will endure than now. Obviously, I love
the section in the book on folklore e squids and
how interconnected the folklore is with our our just basic
understanding of the various species. And I think our listeners

(53:42):
will particularly enjoy this section of the book as well.
And I can't possibly ask you about all of it,
but one example I wanted to bring up. It was
the the idea you share of the North Sea Reek,
and the idea that the Sea Reek might be linked
to ammonia in the giant squid body. Can you describe this?
That's a a slight um connection UM that I hope

(54:05):
I'm not um making too much of. But it is
the case that the giant squid, artitude of ducts made
famous by stains, ropen and others um, possesses um um
um ammonia chloride and in its um um and it's

(54:26):
flesh uh. And the reason for that is that these
are animals that live very deep in the ocean um
and the ammonia chloride provides buoyancy so that they don't
um float to the surface where they wouldn't want to
be because they be eaten by birds or whatever. UM,

(54:48):
and also prevents them from sinking down to the bottom.
All squids have ammonia chloride um. Really just a giant
squid and a few other species in general. But in
much of the folklore of squids uh folklore extending up

(55:10):
into the novels of the modern era, the reek of
ammonia is very much an aspect of an encounter worth
a craken or half gufa or one of these monsters

(55:31):
of the seas that would supposedly um uh wrapped their
arms around the entire ship and drag it to the
to the bottom of the ocean. Um. So I think
that the cea Reek and as a possible literal account

(55:51):
of um uh, this this feared um, mythic and yet
real monster that everyone dreaded um and always left kind
of of tell tale odor uh. And it's weak. Throughout
this section, I was just you know, trying to you know,

(56:13):
put myself in the mindset, possible mindset of let's say,
you know, a Norse seamen. Uh, you know, witnessing this,
smelling these creatures, you know, and encountering uh, you know,
firsthand and then secondhand knowledge of them. Uh. It's really
really remarkable. Well and and um frightening. Yes, of course

(56:36):
the city is frightening enough, since we all know that
humans aren't meant to be able to see in the
natural sense. We tend to sink uh. And we else
know that way down deep there are monsters like the
vampire squids from Hell and giants, squids, cools attack our ships. Yeah.
And I love how this is a recurring theme in

(56:58):
the book, talking about our relationship with the sea, our
relationship then with squid, and then the idea of the squid,
and of course that leads us to the squid gods.
So when when even when I say squid gods, I
know many listeners are probably thinking of of a certain
fictional deity that will mention in a moment here. But
there is a squid deity in Polynesian traditions, right well. Um,

(57:22):
I hesitate to speak authoritatively about another culture, UM, but
Polynesian culture is very close to the ocean UM. And
from what I was able to UM understand from my

(57:43):
own very amateurish UM investigation, is that there are prayers
to Knola, who described as a god of the squid. UM.
Does not seem that that god is actually a squid,

(58:03):
but is perhaps represented by a squid us, since it
would be inappropriate to say uh the god's name directly literally.
But it is the case that also that, as in
many UH cultures, UM, there are certain um beings that

(58:28):
serve as family guardians UH, which can ward off threats
on bring um good fortune UH to particular families. These these,
of course, these guardians would be revered among those would
be the squid UM, and in that regard, one of

(58:51):
my happiest discoveries UM. But I was researching UM for
the book UH. Well the modern New Zealand poet there
in Kamali Um, who invokes um agents polity Nesian traditions
in his poetry. UM, he called upon guardian squids um

(59:16):
to rejuvenate UM his culture UH that has been has
subsuved by the Western views by commercial exploitation of non
human life UM. And so his his songs about UH

(59:38):
squids UM, about a squid becoming a man whose tentacles
then become dreadlocks, who then chances these these rejuvenating songs UM,
they've become chance calling up this this, this agents UM

(59:58):
UH life, this ancient um um um familiarity UH. And
UM let's say companionship or guardianship among animals, or let's
let's just put this way, an ancient community among humans
and other creatures UH that perhaps can um rectify some

(01:00:23):
of the ills caused by UM western exploitation UM and
Western views that that UM squid intelligence cannot be UM
compared to human intelligence. That has to be less than
intelligence to enable us uh to exploit them just for

(01:00:45):
their nerve fibers or for their flesh. Well, I feel
like that that would that would almost be a fitting
end to the interview right there. But I have to,
of course ask you about about the squid in in
literature in particular, and some of the the the weirder
weird fiction of of of the twenty and the twenty

(01:01:06):
one century. And again there's a lot in the book.
I'm not gonna ask you about everything. I encourage our
our listeners to pick up a copy and dive in themselves.
But Uh, one of the big ones you, of course,
discusses Jules Vernes treatment of the giant squid in twenty
tho Leagues under the Sea. How essential is this novel
to pop culture visions of the giant squid? Oh, well,

(01:01:27):
it's it's enormously important. Um. In anyways, Verne uh does
just the reverse of what uh stadings group uh did.
Um so that and the narratives. The main character, Professor
Aronnax who was a natural historian UM, gives an account
of the giant squids that she sees from inside the

(01:01:51):
submarine that um uh led by the evil captain Nemo
UM and he gives Aaron Axes descriptions very um accurate, empirical,
uh dispassionate description. But then almost immediately that scene turned

(01:02:12):
into um uh very exciting, dramatic account where the squids
are attacking the Nautilus um and uh they become the
um repellent embodiment of the old myths um and who
who are who trying to pull on Aaronax's companion, the

(01:02:36):
harpoonist ned Land from the from the strip until Captain
Nemo hacks off the tentacle of the squid um and
so on. Uh. Ned Land is almost topped in two
by the the the beak, the giant beak of the
monsters squid. So really, what Verne is able to accomplish

(01:02:58):
there is making something seem something seems scientific uh into
a uh a rejuvenation of the old myths of the
craken of the sea monsters. Uh. So we end up
with UM a decidedly modern, empirical kind of dread on

(01:03:25):
a modern kind of anxiety. That so that we can
name what these creatures are uh and still feel that
that oh yikes, if I've been rowed into the sea,
they'll definitely rap hole of me and shot me in
half with their giant beak. UM. So that that's really
uh lay the groundwork, as as yourself set for much

(01:03:50):
of the later kinds of stories that describe UM space
aliens coming to the world and destroying the world. Um
and of course those aliens all or squits. Yeah that
that you of course you have bring up HP Lovecraft's

(01:04:10):
Cthulhu and The Call of Cthulu, which I think most
of our listeners are probably familiar with. But then you
also touched on a work by William Hope Hodgson, The
Boats of Glenn Carrigg. And I've read Hodgson's The Night Land,
but I wasn't familiar with this one. Can you tell
us a little about it? And it's rolled in squid
related weird fiction. First of all, I really have to

(01:04:31):
give a shout up to my um great friend Tim Murphy,
who is not only a lover of squid of back
to almost as much as I am, but also an
expert on Hodgson, this book and weird fixing fiction generally. Uh.
And he's he's just finishing a book on Hodgson. UM

(01:04:55):
and the short the story of the Books of Glenn
Carrig um uh come from the the voice of John Winterstraw,
who's the narrator who's basically telling a kind of sailor's
story of having once um uh encounters strange monsters at sea. UM. Basically,

(01:05:20):
what happens in in his strange his sailor's story is
that his ship UM, the Glenn Carrick, gets caught in
a big field of seaweed let's say, probably something like
the Sargasso Sea. And it's worth noting parenthetically that Hodgson

(01:05:41):
UM just spent quite a good time and the merchant marine.
So he was familiar with ships UM. He was worried
familiar with UM ship war uh and with these kinds
of tales that sailors telemone another UM. But he also

(01:06:01):
was interested in UM that the category of of fiction UH,
it's called weird weird fiction. UM. So while the game
terrig is caught in um this Sargassas Sea or just
a field of seaweed um UM, the sailors began to

(01:06:23):
to um threat because they encounter other ships that have
been obviously trapped there so long they've just become uh
skeleton ships. Until finally they drift towards of what seems
to be an island UH, and they try to um

(01:06:44):
set up a residence on the island UM. And then
UH winter Strong notices of a few times he looks
over the side of a boat um. And the title
of the uh novel comes from the fact that the
sailors escape from the ship from the land Carrick and

(01:07:08):
the ships and boats which they rode towards the island.
So while he's in one of these boats, winter Straw
looks over the side and he sees a white human
like face staring back up at him. Uh. The course
um scares the Jesus out of him. Uh. And then

(01:07:30):
once they get on the island, the sailors begin to
encounter other beings. Uh. There seem to be encampments of
squid like characters. UM seems that perhaps these squid monsters
are traveling underneath the island and subterranean caverns and showing

(01:07:53):
up on land uh and attacking the fortified of the sailors. UH.
And the the attacks happened um uh nightly over a
standard time UH, even to the point that that the

(01:08:14):
sailor has become exhausted. UH. And they said look out,
hoping to to war off more attacks. Winter Straw numerous
points looks out to sea and he can see the
uh squid monsters swarming into the island and um what
he describes as discipline formations. So it's the squid army

(01:08:38):
coming to attack the marooned sailors uh and the disturbing
faulty there and they're really intriguing paulity. And I think
this is what Hodge and what makes Hodges and such
an interesting writer and much of his work um uh

(01:08:59):
is that he really probes the question of alien intelligence. UM.
What what a lot of what you and I have
been talking about in the past few minutes. UM. In
this regard, we could even think back, perhaps to the
squid jokes. UM. That might not be funny to us,

(01:09:19):
because these disciplined military formations of squids uh would seem
to demonstrate uh high intelligence, very sophisticated intelligence, and an
intelligence that's directed at us humans in a way that
is about as discomforting as I think is possible, and

(01:09:44):
that is thinking of us humans as the resources for
a squid economy. UH. So the question would be what
use would humans be to a squid sibilant zation? How
can humans be exploited by squid intelligence? UM? And that

(01:10:10):
really goes against everything that UM we want to say
about ourselves and relation to our fellow creatures uh and
about our view of ourselves as UH. The only dominant
intelligent force on the planet. And I think it's it's

(01:10:32):
as my Tim Murphy suggests and brought his discussion of
weird fiction, UM, since weird fiction is pretty far removed
from let's a mainstream fiction, that's the kind of question
that weird fiction can ask that other forms of of

(01:10:53):
literary inquiry or other forms of scientific um or just
oracle inquiry really cannot venture into. UH. And that's I
think the value of weird fiction and UM the value
of learning how to read um the myths and legends

(01:11:15):
of ancient uh times and the um uh theological accounts
of other cultures in a less skeptical way, perhaps in
a more open minded sense of of seeing that maybe
we're not the only intelligence and maybe there are other

(01:11:37):
ways of of engaging intelligently with the world. Excellent. Well, uh,
you know. Finally, one last question here after reading the book,
I have a couple of guesses about what your answer
might be. But do you have a favorite squid species? Oh? Absolutely,
I don't even have to have state. UM my favorite
squid UM is a little apart from the traditional favorite

(01:12:01):
squid um. The favorite squid I think it generally is um.
The giant squid because of all the lore uh that's
growing up around over the millennia. But I really became
fascinated by the Humboldt squid UM the um, the filicus

(01:12:22):
gigas right, which is about five ft long. UM. It's
also referred to as the red devil because it has
plenty of lore of its own. UM. So that we
hear over over again. UM. Sailors fall from the boats UM,
they're fishing boats, and they're immediately devoured by swarms of

(01:12:44):
of the Humboldt squids who chumped them to pieces. UM
and UH. There there are videos on YouTube of of
underwater cameraman being attacked by uh one of these five
ft long squids coming after him and ripping his oxygen
hose and and so on. UM. And of course, these

(01:13:07):
these are the squids that um defy explanation and their
ability to pass through UM areas of the ocean where
there is there is no action uh and and where
they're not supposed to be able to go, and yet
they do. UM. And they're also hunted in large numbers

(01:13:30):
for their giant axons UH and UM and their flesh
and their fears. And I think because of their adaptability, uh,
their voraciousness. Um. And I'll just add this one detail. Um,
there's one um weird weird lead of delightful video of

(01:13:54):
sub scientists putting a camera on a humble squid to
see how it interacts with other humbold squids or what
it does way down and the ocean depth. Uh. But
the video only lasts a few seconds because you can
tell the squid is descending and then immediately another squid

(01:14:16):
approaches and Egypt. So the three blank um. So that
that aggression, even to um, cannibalism of of one's um schoolmates,
of maybe one even once family, that's consumable. Um. All

(01:14:37):
that is alien and it's right to the heart of
why I wanted to write the book. Excellent. Well again
for everyone out there that the book is Squid. It
is part of Reactions Animal series. It's available in physical
and digital formats. And and now that I know that
you also have one on the Fox, I'm gonna have
to pick that up as well. Uh. I'm instantly thinking

(01:14:57):
of all the various folklores funding the Fox and it's
secretive nature. Oh great, right, and just just go to
plug out. Let me say that, Uh, there are hundreds
um different animals covers and Reactions series. Um. And really
all those books have have a great deal to offer. Um.

(01:15:20):
They all all the different authors have their own approaches
to particular animals. Um. Not everyone who's trained in literature
as I am. There, scientists, sociologists, historians, um, journalists, um
you name it. Uh. So many people have been intrigued

(01:15:41):
by how to how to talk about an animals and
what it means to try to understand the relevance of
one animal to human life and culture. Excellent. Well, than
thanks for being on the show, Martin. Sure, thank you
are inviting me. I really appreciate it. All right, Thanks

(01:16:03):
again to Martin Wallon for taking time out of his
day to chat with me again. The book is Squid
from one part of the Reaction Animal series, which also
includes Wallon's book on the Fox. Wallon's other works include
Whose Dog Are You? The Technology of Dog Breeds and
The Aesthetics of Modern Human Canine Relations and A City

(01:16:24):
of Health, Fields of Disease, Revolutions in the Poetry, Medicine,
and philosophy of Romanticism. As always, if you want to
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you can find them in the Stuff to Blow Your
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Core science and culture episodes published on Tuesdays and Thursdays,

(01:16:44):
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on Wednesdays, and on Friday, we set aside most serious
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(01:17:14):
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