June 28, 2011 • 28 mins
How did Albert Einstein's brain wind up on a road trip to hang with the author of "Naked Lunch?" In this episode, Robert and Julie give Einstein's head cheese a serious poking to discuss the secrets of all the brain matter inside that skull of yours.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie,
what do you want to happen to your brain when
you die? Oh? You know what I would really love?
What's that? I would love if someone would pack it
away in tupperware and take it on a road trip.
(00:28):
But only forty years after I'm dead and gone. Yeah, alright,
because why not? I mean, my brain might want to
see the Grand Canyon again, like purple ble tupperware like
purple you know how they would do the like it.
I mean I've just heard that back in the day
when they would do like tple tup aware parties. Like
one of the whole proofs that you would um that
(00:49):
you would put the tup aware through is the typeware
can be burped like somethingn do with like air escaping
the tupperware where you kind of go like you make
it open the lid like it's a little mouth and
it goes somehow. That's very fifties and tomato aspect and
burping tupperware very fifty stuff, because there's I mean, there's
a good reason why we're talking about that, right, because
we were talking about Albert Einstein's brain other. Yeah, and
(01:13):
not only all the weird things that happened to it
after it was done being Eidenstein, but also about some
of the really interesting stuff that we've learned from it
about everyone's brain, not just about his. Uh and you
know what was unique about it, because ultimately it wasn't
like super unique. It was a human brain. It's not
like they cut open his skull and found like a
(01:34):
little crab monster that flew here on a saucer and no, no,
but his long strange journey of his brain actually ended
up or it is contributing to the conversation about what
is genius. It really did end up illuminating some aspects
of Genius four, which is pretty exciting stuff because he
was undoubtedly a genius. Man was brilliant, no doubt, kind
(01:55):
of a klutz been in some respects, but but a genius.
Love the lays, but what are you gonna do? So
so yeah, he uh, after after he contributed so much
to the world, Um, he died and he just wanted
to be left alone in death, right, So yeah, supposedly
that was his His big request is like, just cremate me,
(02:16):
throw my ashes somewhere secrets, because I don't want people
worshiping my grave. I don't want, you know, any didn't want. Yeah,
don't deify me. I'm just Einstein. Um let me be.
So he's seventy six. He dies of a burst ortic aneurysm,
and the autopsy is performed by a guy, a pathologist
by the name of Dr Thomas Harvey. Alright, so Harvey
(02:38):
mostly kept to Einstein's wishes. He you know, he performed
his duties. But he I guess he's looking down at
that table and he's looking at that that big skull.
He wasn't even that big, just that average looking skull
of Einstein's, and he was like, you know, it is
a shame to let a good brain go to wet
and it's not uncommon to remove the brain during an outopsy. Right,
(02:59):
So yeah, can see how it's sitting out there on
the table and he just cannot help him. Yeah, Like
I see him like about to put it back in.
It's in his hand, you know, dripping, and he's like,
this is this is an important I mean, this is
his all argument is that this is scientifically an important brain.
This is a specimen that needs to be preserved, not
turned into ashes and hidden away. I should put this
(03:20):
in a tuppleware um container and uh and and save
it and and let allow it to be studied for
the good of science, for the good of science. Of course,
Einstein's family did not agree, but nonetheless, the Harvey's heart
took it. Yeah, and he stuck to his guns, even
though we got fired for it too, right. Yeah, And
there was apparently later our right rage when it was
(03:40):
revealed that another person, presumably at the same the same location,
removed removed Einstein's eyeballs as a souvenir, which is even
creep here, and I think a little harder to justify. Yeah,
I think I've seen those pop up on eBay that
the eyeball. I can't say, you can't authenticate it, but yeah,
(04:02):
you do wonder what happened to those eyeballs. So yeah,
I mean this is this is the beginning of what
would be a very strange journey for Einstein's brain. Right. Yeah,
It's kind of like Weakened at Bernie's, except with just
this dude in a brain in a tup aware driving
around the country at one point and doing stuff like
apparently Harvey's former neighbor was, uh, you know a famous
(04:24):
writer of you know, like Naked Lunch and uh, you
know William pretty well known heroin addict that William S Burrows. Yeah. Yeah,
And so they went to see Williams Burrows. So it's
like I'm pictured him like setting around like playing a
backgammon or something, and it's it's william S Burrows Harvey.
And then this tup aware with Einstein's brain in it. Yeah.
In just to back up a little bit, Thomas Harvey
(04:45):
did try to do the right thing in in his
mind right, and he uh, for for years, for something
like forty years, he would send a little samples off
to other neuroscientists because in mayonnaise jars, in mayonnaise jars,
because he felt like there was something that could be found,
and for years nothing was found. In fact, people were like,
you know what, stop sending me this, because you know,
(05:06):
what we're discovering here is that Einstein's brain doesn't look
unique to us. In fact, it's a little bit smaller
than the average brain. Um, they didn't see much that
would tell them that that this, you know, some sort
of markers of genius until he sent off in the
Mannad's Jar, uh, four sections of Einstein's brain, the most
that he had ever sent off to neuro researcher by
(05:29):
the name of Marion Diamond. So she requested this and
three years later, because you know, he's on it, he's
he's on a road trip. It's going to take him
a while, that the Manna's Jar arrived. And this was
a really big moment um for for science really but
still and we'll get to it um. You know, it
didn't become abundantly clear at first how significant this brain
(05:54):
to she was and what Marian Diamond found was so again,
Einstein was a genius. But what is a genius? What
makes genius is something you're you're born with the genius
brain or do you or does it come from like
having the right genius inspiring uh, you know nursery activity, Yes,
it acquired or is that inherent? Um? And according to
(06:15):
neuro researcher Douglas Fields, genius is kind of a grab
bag of genetic and environmental factors. But then you you
hear from people like Dean Keith Simonton and he says
attributes like your mental energy and your openness to new
experiences is genetic um. It's something you can cultivate, right,
like the sense of being open to new experiences. But
(06:35):
if if you're sort of born with this attribute, then
you're a lot more predisposed to go out and explore
new ideas and experiences. And we already know that when
you do that, you're putting your brain through the paces
and you're effectively increasing the white matter in your brain.
And turns out white matter is is really important stuff, right,
and uh, to to to settle exactly what he is
(06:58):
white matter and what is gray matter, because that we've
all heard gray matters used to just sort of a
generic term for your brain, like like to start using
your gray matter there, exercise your gray matter a little,
and you never hear white matter, of right, and in
fact white matter. Some people have made the analogy that
white matter to scientists has been like dark matter to
(07:18):
astrophysicists or a cosmologists, and that for so many years
white matter just was completely unknown. We didn't really know
what the deal was with white man. We know it's there,
but we don't really know what it is. Just cottage
cheese or what. Yeah, no, it turns out, is not
cottage cheese, yogurt goat cheese. I wonder if the zombie
(07:39):
would prefer the white or the gray or is it
like is it like a white and dark meat in turkey? Well,
it depends, it depends. Um, I've never heard this this
this post before. That's a good question. Let's let's answer
that at the end of this podcast. Let's perclate on that.
Let's let's not steer completely off of course. Another way
of thinking about gray matter that I ran across was
a scientific American had had this a bit where they
(08:00):
were comparing it to soil. They said, the gray matter
is and this is you know where a mental computation
takes plays, memories are stored. Um, this cortex is the
top soil of the brain, all right, densely packed neuron
all cell bodies, decision making making parts of the nerve
cells or neurons. Underneath it, you have the bedrock and
this is the white matter. And this feels nearly half
(08:22):
the human brain. And and this is a really important
thing that we'll discuss here in a minute, is that
this is a far larger percentage than found in the
brains of other animals like humans are really packing the
white matter. If they are packing the white matter and
the Yeah, the white matter consists of bundles of long
nerve fibers and they conduct electrical signals between nerve cells
(08:42):
and they connect different parts of the brain together. So
it's really important to remember that because within the the
white matter or something called glial cells, and we'll talk
about that, but again, Einstein's brain contributed to our understanding
today which is not even complete of what white matter
is and what glial cells are and why they're really
important to of genius or just even intelligent thought. UM.
(09:04):
I did want to say that that Rex Young he
is uh he is. I believe that he's a psychologist,
and he said that highly creative people usually have less
white matter integrity and less brain tissue in the frontal lobes.
And this is important to remember because when they looked
at Einstein's brain, they saw this correlated in there and
they say this could be UM disinhibiting, causing a down
(09:28):
regulation of the decision making judging center of the brain.
So we've talked about this before in a podcast about creativity.
Is that you kind of have to be able to
shut off that part of your brain that is saying no. Basically,
there have been some some situations where the the inhibiting
section of the brain becomes injured or diseased, and you
see at what may seem like a burst of creativity,
(09:50):
but it's really sort of like the creativity is suddenly
unchecked by this inhibition. So it's not it's like column
A doesn't increase, but column B decreases. That's right, that's right.
And so it's important to know that if you have
you know, white cells packed in one area, that's probably
pretty great. Like Enstein had a ton of them in
the area that correlates with mathematics, but not so much
(10:11):
in the frontal loope. Right, So this allowed him to
perhaps turn off that part of his brain that might
have made him feel, uh, you know, preoccupied with other
thoughts and allowed you know, this other part of his
brain to to computate at crazy levels, like to to
to just throw out like sort of genius stereotypes. Like
if you have like the type of person who forgets
(10:31):
to sleep or forgets to bathe because they're like so
into figuring something out, Like that's a situation where the
natural voice that comes in and says, hey, maybe we
should put this away in bathe, or maybe we should
put this away and get back to the other aspects
of our life that are important, like that that voice
is diminished. Is the laundry list choice? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely,
(10:52):
And um, this was interesting. Some of this came out
of a panel that I saw at in New York
at the World Science Festival and was called the Enigma
of Genius, and artist Julie Tamer was on the panel
along with some of the other folks that we were
talking about today. Described to me who Julie tam she
is responsible for, like the Lion King, that's probably something
(11:12):
you know on Broadway that a lot of people know.
It's incredible puppetry, all of that. Um, what she's interpreted
a lot of Shakespeare works. Um, Titus is one she
you know for film and for for Broadway. But she
has a very unique vision, and so she's gotten the
MacArthur Genius Grant. She's someone who a lot of people
feel like have has changed her field. Okay, cool, Yeah,
(11:35):
I think some of her lanking designs were on display
at the Atlanta Center for Puppetry Arts a few years back. Yeah,
and and she was sort of saying, well, you know,
I'm hesitant to to, you know, call myself a genius
or even define genius. But what she was saying is
that in her own creative process, she finds that some
of her best ideas come from early morning sleep. Um,
and it was interesting. I think it was Douglas Fields
(11:56):
who was on the panel, uh that the scientists who said, oh, well,
that is when in the frontal lobes are actually less active.
So again we're seeing this correlation with frontal lobes disinhibiting
and the percolating of ideas happening. And we're seeing that
Einstein had this this low white matter in the frontal lobe.
So that's why you inevitably have that dream that is
(12:17):
either so awesome that you wish could keep going or
it is so horrible that you're like, thank goodness, I
actually woke up from that, Because that's the time when
the inhibition shuts down in creativity is more likely to
just completely slam you with something unbelievable. Yeah, and I
don't have this confirmed, but I have I've heard before
that you tend to dream a lot more in the
(12:37):
early morning hours anyway, so it makes sense that you
know you would remember those dreams. But um, but again
you know, frontal lobes dimmed down, so you can perhaps
have your best ideas then, but we should probably get
back to white matter any fales, right, Um, so sciences
that you're my my white matter was just causing me
(12:58):
to just go off and forget the time time table
here and yeah, you're about to compose a high who
I can tell it was all about like glial self.
I saw you notating it there, um And so okay,
back to Einstein's brain. It's been hanging out for forty
plus years at this point. He quit traveling in UH
nine five. He died in nineteen forty I think is
(13:20):
when excuse me, forty years later he had his big
road trip ninety six. Yeah, he moved back to New
Jersey and he surrenders the remaining pieces of Einstein's brain.
He the pathologist Thomas Hartrty to Dr Elliott Krauss. Yeah,
and this is because his road trip was was not
really effective, because what he was attempting to do in
(13:41):
this road trip is to deliver back the brain to
Einstein's granddaughter Evelyn, who was not interested in it. So yes,
it returned back to Princeton um and Thomas Harvey actually
died in two thousand and seven ruling not even understanding
you know that, but what he did indirectly did have
some bearing on how we understand genius today. Well, he
(14:02):
hung on the brain for that long. I suspect he
really clung to the notion that what he was doing
was a good thing. So yeah, absolutely did Yeah. Uh.
So many scientists at this point they've tinkered with the
tissue from mind sciins brain, and most of them have
done it under a microscope, which isn't telling us a
whole lot um And historically neuro anatomous found no clues
to to his his brain right again, his brain to
(14:25):
the naked eye look like everybody else's because this is
the thinking to wear white matter. I don't know what
it's doing, but gray matter. That's where the neurons, the
neurons are. He doesn't have any more neurons than anybody
else's what they're what they're looking at. And this is
the nineteen eighties, and scientists still believe that, um, you know,
at this point when they're tinkering around with it. Uh,
scientists still believe the important work in the brain is
(14:45):
done by neurons. Right. These are the powerhouses. These are
the brains of the brain, and they're out there doing
you know, specific things, um and mary and diamond. Again,
she observes a disproportionately high number of brain cells. There
are not neurons. They're there again what they're called glia,
which means glue. Wow, And we will get to that
(15:06):
glib right out this quick. Right. That's right. This presentation
is brought to you by Intel sponsors of tomorrow. All right,
back to the glue, back in the glue goog. Yeah.
So this glue, this glia is found in regions of
(15:28):
Einstein cerebral cortex, which is involved in complex reasoning, mathematics
and imagery. And so she's seeing that like highly densely
packed glial cells. And so this shifts the focus from
neurons to glia, and it really upends the fundamental understanding
of how the brain works because heretofore we thought that
the glial cells were basically just the custodians of the brain.
(15:49):
They were clearing away like dead matter essentially, which is
like oversimplification of it um and they didn't seem to
have any electrical impulses. And it's not entirely crazy to
the idea to think that the brain isn't like a
perfect design because I've heard it the you know that
there might be something there that is kind of useless,
(16:09):
Like because I've heard it proposed before that the brain
is kind of like an evolutionary ice cream cone where, um,
each level of evolution it's just a new scoop of
ice cream cortex because evolution. Not to personify too much
is kind of lazy. It's gonna work with what it's got.
It's and it's not gonna I'm really personifying like nuts here.
But but but you get the idea. It's the process
(16:32):
is not going to go back and fine tune everything. Um.
So it's it's it's not ridiculous to think that the
white matter wouldn't be doing anything and at the time
that that was flying right and it was okay, the
white matter it must be helping out the neurotransmitter, right
and and just keeping things clean. Um. But glial cells
do communicate, not through synapses, but through gap junctions. That's
(16:54):
found there's protein channels that connect one cell to one
another like a spaceship talking at the mother station. Okay,
but it's non electric communication. Well, they it's they still
don't know everything about glia yet. UM, So I'm hesitant
to to say that in any certain terms. UM, but
I will say that, you know, in the nineteen nineties,
(17:16):
you had to two or excuse me, new techniques that
emerged from the development of lasers and personal computers grafted
it onto microscopes to better visualize the way that glia behave. Uh.
And then that's when Douglas Fields and other folks began
to describe the glia as the other brain at work,
because they were seeing that these brain cells that actually
were communicating with each other, and they were actually not
(17:38):
just communicating with each other at eavesdropping on neural cells. Right, So, Uh,
glia actually sense electrical activity in the neural circuits and
they can control it. And Field says that if glia
can do this, and it's not unreasonable to assume that
they are one of the reasons for the extraordinary capability
(17:58):
of the human brain, and ignoring them until now might
help explain why the cellular basis for a genius has
remained elusive. So what we're talking about here is that
the glial cells are giving you the sort of supercharged
um ability to communicate with the rest of your brain.
So it's really it's sort of like the motor of
(18:20):
the sort of like the engine of the car. It
provides the processor speed for yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So
in fields book The Other Brain, he says, here are
cells that can build the brain of a fetus, direct
the connection of its growing axons to wire up the
nervous system, repair it after it's injured, release neurotoxic or
neuroprotective factors, plug and unplug synapses, give birth to neowe neurons,
(18:42):
communicate with the vascular and immune systems, insulate the neuro
neural lines of communication, and control the speed of impulse
traffic through them. And some people ask could these cells
have anything to do with higher brain function? How could
they possibly not? But it's just how he said it. Okay, yeah,
So it's important to us though, because what they've discovered
(19:03):
is that glial cells are there, they continue to form
until like greatly to a certain degree, until you're okay,
So what is this point to that you need to
use those You need to grow these cells when you
have a chance. Yes, And that it's not it's not
just that you are born with a brain and there's
(19:24):
your brain. It means that your brain is developing rapidly
still up until you're twenty. But essentially that everything, all
the experiences, everything that you're doing until h twenty are
really going to highly determine this sort of brain that
you have for the rest of your life. But and
it doesn't even stop there. But we're just saying that
the bulk of the brain is being developed. Wow, So
I dare say, are under twenty listeners are doing exactly
(19:46):
the right thing by listening to this podcast right now? Yeah? Yeah,
And I mean this that's the other thing. You know.
I hope that you're playing chess. I hope that that
your mathlete um, you know. I hope that that you're
you're messing around with music, because these are again, all
these things, all these paces that you're putting your brain through,
all these new experiences, are really helping to shape what
(20:06):
your brain is wants to be, yes, yeah, or what
you wanted to be really yeah, just throw some stuff
at it, see what sticks and d open to new exactly.
I mean, it's it's all about like I mean, it's
kind of like beliefs. Try believing something new every day,
you know, learn about learn about something new every day
to find out about the different system and don't like
close your mind off to different visions of you know
(20:27):
what reality consists? Up? That's right, because I mean you
can actually see it. Um you know this, this sort
of this transformation take place in your brain. You see
new pathways being created. How cool? Is that? Cool? Now?
What happened now? After twenty though it's not necessarily it's
not closes because I know that the over twenty listeners
(20:48):
are like, well, great, what am I doing? Waste of
my time? And they like switch off and go straight
to I don't know whatever you listen to if you
don't want to learn anything, Um, I don't. Yeah, just silent.
That's just like Islands silence. No, I think it's not
Kardashian Kardashians. Yeah, not to be conclude fused with Kardassians
right from the start from Star Trek. No, yes, exactly. Yeah,
(21:09):
because I was talking with some people the other day,
what if there was a show meet the Cardassians. Surely
somebody has done a periody of that already. But anyway,
for over twenty, white matter over twenty, Yes, hope for
the future for people with brains that are older than
twenty because white matter continues to develop into our forties.
I get past forty, so you know, over the hill
not so much. Recent studies showed up versus teaching juggling
(21:33):
to healthy adults, showed that learning the new skill caused
white matter changes. So just just juggling alone and healthy
adults can can you know, so continue to exercise your brain,
you know, because you can still beef it up, That's right.
And we've talked about neural plasticity before too, and we
just keep learning more and more about this, and I
think this is the important takeaway with this well as well,
(21:55):
is that we still don't know everything about the brain.
We've talked about the Blue Brain Project, trying to map
the human in brain, trying to figure out, you know,
the seat of consciousness, all these really exciting cool things
that are happening. And just recently we saw an article
about how they're using skin cells to turn into brain cells.
Oh yeah, this was this is a pretty awesome idea. Yeah,
And and I mean basically what they're trying to do
(22:16):
is treat Parkinson's with us. But I mean the the
idea is that you could apply this to other areas
in the brain and actually help to repair, as you know,
parts of the brain that have been damaged. Yeah, and
it also really turns the whole question on its head
that we've asked before, like what happens what's it like
to have a three hundred, four hundred year old brain?
(22:38):
And and if we could live to be nine, like
we discussed in nine nine nine birthday candles, if you
could live to be eight hundred years old, would you
have like this cranky old eight hundred year old brain
in your you know, your your nice young body? Why
would I U? Why would I juggle your kids with juggling?
And you know you just set on a bunch of
money and hate everything. But non possibly not, because if
(23:01):
you could continue to um to liven up the your
white matter, um, you could continue to have this uh,
this changing brain. You can continue to have near plasticity,
you know, well into your eight hundreds at least, right,
which makes that proposition a lot be all right? Right,
when we talked about the downside about this is that
you know, of course you've talked about all sort of becoming,
(23:22):
you know, Charlie Sheen's at some point we're all too
given to our demons like I will become a horrible
person and live forever. No yeah, yeah, no, and he's
going to pull through. Okay, But but I mean the
point is is that, you know, if this technology bears
some fruit, and even if it's you know, longevity of
(23:42):
another fifty years, it's great to know that we have
these things that are at our fingertips. They're strying to
developed and actually help us live healthily, minded and literally
at our fingertips. Because yeah, there you go, nicely done.
All right. Well, Einstein's brain, um, which is not currently
(24:03):
on the road, but hopefully it'll go on to her
against it. Yeah yeah. And zombies, what do you did
you ever make a decision on them about great gray
meat versus white meat? I don't know. I just don't know.
Generally they don't seem to be that concern. But I
bet they're, like, I've explored the idea, there's some and
they're going to be particular about it. Yeah, they'll sit
(24:25):
around and critique the glia cells. Yeah cool. Well, I
have some listener mail here. Um, let's see which one
I want to read. You know these look good? Okay, Um,
here's one from Timothy. He says, hello, stuff to blow
your mind crew, that's us. During your iPod People podcast,
you had mentioned briefly how repetitive music can help during writing.
(24:48):
This used to be my experience during high school in
college when I would pocket my discmand remember those and
play trance music during chores. It would cause me to
enter the altered state you described where I would tune
out and go and go, and to quote autopilot, the
real life would become a dream like background in my thoughts.
I found that my most creative thinking would occur at
these times, and I often find myself stopping to run
(25:10):
off and scribble down my thoughts. Unfortunately, like a really
good dream, the written version usually lost something in translation. Incidentally,
at my current job as a digital artist, I've been
known to have a similar experience during your your podcast.
I'm a science and philosophy nuts, so I'd love to
hear a podcast about cellular automata, the holographic principle, or
(25:32):
the EPR paradox. Thanks, we will add those, sup, We'll
check it out. Uh. Well, that's awesome. I love I mean,
I especially love the idea that that people can listen
to what we're discussing. If some of these ideas were
bringing up and then turn that into something else, uh,
you know, creatively. Uh oh yeah. I always feel like
each podcast has, you know, possibilities with fiction, blank and age.
(25:56):
You can't take you pretty much any of this. And
I think there's actually is there a film or a
book about Einstein's branding on the road. Um, I don't know.
I don't know that it's nonfiction, but if if anybody
hasn't been there is, there is a nonfiction version for sure.
But for fiction, I don't know. I just keep thinking
the idea of it, like being put into a robot
like in RoboCop too, where they had the brain and
(26:18):
the big machine that battles robocops. But but he wouldn't
be battling robocot naturally, he'd be womanizing and working on relativity. Yeah. Um,
well cool, let's see, do we have anything else to
read here? Yes? Here's another one from Alex. Alex says,
I was recently introduced to your podcast by my best
friend as well as my sister, who both swore to
(26:40):
me that if I had a podcast, it would be
like this one. I travel a lot for work and
haven't seen many of my friends and months and haven't
seen my family since Thanksgiving, but in the last month
I have downloaded well over a hundred podcasts podcasts podcast
from you as well as your friends at How Stuff
Works UH and Stuff Missed in History, and spent hours
listening intently, a couple of times actually taking notes. Though
(27:03):
none of you ever got to hear me responding to
you in my car, hotel or my tiny coach seat.
I get strange looks now more than ever. I feel
like we would get along if you could uh. Though
the majority of my time is spent alone and away
from home, during the last few weeks, I've begun to
feel like I have friends with me wherever I go.
Thank you all for your company and your appreciation for
obscure knowledge. Your friend Alex ps, you two have the
(27:25):
best intro music. Look at that there was this great
stuff for everybody with an ear shot. I know that.
Yeah r music. Yeah, thanks Alex cool. So Hey, if
you guys have stuff you want to share with us,
especially if you have any thoughts. I don't know if
you have a chunk of mine Stun's brain in your
house in a Manna's jar of a lot of more
(27:47):
sent out maybe you do, um, but no any any
thoughts you have about the continued development of your own
brain or the brains of those around you, UH let
us know. You can share it with us on Facebook
or Twitter. We are blow the Mind on both of those,
and you can also drop us a line at blow
the Mind at how stuff works dot com. Be sure
(28:09):
to check out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future.
Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore the most
promising and perplexing possibilities of tomorrow.
Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff
Works dot Com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.
My name is Robert Lamb and I'm Julie Douglas. Julie,
what do you want to happen to your brain when
you die? Oh? You know what I would really love?
What's that? I would love if someone would pack it
away in tupperware and take it on a road trip.
(00:28):
But only forty years after I'm dead and gone. Yeah, alright,
because why not? I mean, my brain might want to
see the Grand Canyon again, like purple ble tupperware like
purple you know how they would do the like it.
I mean I've just heard that back in the day
when they would do like tple tup aware parties. Like
one of the whole proofs that you would um that
(00:49):
you would put the tup aware through is the typeware
can be burped like somethingn do with like air escaping
the tupperware where you kind of go like you make
it open the lid like it's a little mouth and
it goes somehow. That's very fifties and tomato aspect and
burping tupperware very fifty stuff, because there's I mean, there's
a good reason why we're talking about that, right, because
we were talking about Albert Einstein's brain other. Yeah, and
(01:13):
not only all the weird things that happened to it
after it was done being Eidenstein, but also about some
of the really interesting stuff that we've learned from it
about everyone's brain, not just about his. Uh and you
know what was unique about it, because ultimately it wasn't
like super unique. It was a human brain. It's not
like they cut open his skull and found like a
(01:34):
little crab monster that flew here on a saucer and no, no,
but his long strange journey of his brain actually ended
up or it is contributing to the conversation about what
is genius. It really did end up illuminating some aspects
of Genius four, which is pretty exciting stuff because he
was undoubtedly a genius. Man was brilliant, no doubt, kind
(01:55):
of a klutz been in some respects, but but a genius.
Love the lays, but what are you gonna do? So
so yeah, he uh, after after he contributed so much
to the world, Um, he died and he just wanted
to be left alone in death, right, So yeah, supposedly
that was his His big request is like, just cremate me,
(02:16):
throw my ashes somewhere secrets, because I don't want people
worshiping my grave. I don't want, you know, any didn't want. Yeah,
don't deify me. I'm just Einstein. Um let me be.
So he's seventy six. He dies of a burst ortic aneurysm,
and the autopsy is performed by a guy, a pathologist
by the name of Dr Thomas Harvey. Alright, so Harvey
(02:38):
mostly kept to Einstein's wishes. He you know, he performed
his duties. But he I guess he's looking down at
that table and he's looking at that that big skull.
He wasn't even that big, just that average looking skull
of Einstein's, and he was like, you know, it is
a shame to let a good brain go to wet
and it's not uncommon to remove the brain during an outopsy. Right,
(02:59):
So yeah, can see how it's sitting out there on
the table and he just cannot help him. Yeah, Like
I see him like about to put it back in.
It's in his hand, you know, dripping, and he's like,
this is this is an important I mean, this is
his all argument is that this is scientifically an important brain.
This is a specimen that needs to be preserved, not
turned into ashes and hidden away. I should put this
(03:20):
in a tuppleware um container and uh and and save
it and and let allow it to be studied for
the good of science, for the good of science. Of course,
Einstein's family did not agree, but nonetheless, the Harvey's heart
took it. Yeah, and he stuck to his guns, even
though we got fired for it too, right. Yeah, And
there was apparently later our right rage when it was
(03:40):
revealed that another person, presumably at the same the same location,
removed removed Einstein's eyeballs as a souvenir, which is even
creep here, and I think a little harder to justify. Yeah,
I think I've seen those pop up on eBay that
the eyeball. I can't say, you can't authenticate it, but yeah,
(04:02):
you do wonder what happened to those eyeballs. So yeah,
I mean this is this is the beginning of what
would be a very strange journey for Einstein's brain. Right. Yeah,
It's kind of like Weakened at Bernie's, except with just
this dude in a brain in a tup aware driving
around the country at one point and doing stuff like
apparently Harvey's former neighbor was, uh, you know a famous
(04:24):
writer of you know, like Naked Lunch and uh, you
know William pretty well known heroin addict that William S Burrows. Yeah. Yeah,
And so they went to see Williams Burrows. So it's
like I'm pictured him like setting around like playing a
backgammon or something, and it's it's william S Burrows Harvey.
And then this tup aware with Einstein's brain in it. Yeah.
In just to back up a little bit, Thomas Harvey
(04:45):
did try to do the right thing in in his
mind right, and he uh, for for years, for something
like forty years, he would send a little samples off
to other neuroscientists because in mayonnaise jars, in mayonnaise jars,
because he felt like there was something that could be found,
and for years nothing was found. In fact, people were like,
you know what, stop sending me this, because you know,
(05:06):
what we're discovering here is that Einstein's brain doesn't look
unique to us. In fact, it's a little bit smaller
than the average brain. Um, they didn't see much that
would tell them that that this, you know, some sort
of markers of genius until he sent off in the
Mannad's Jar, uh, four sections of Einstein's brain, the most
that he had ever sent off to neuro researcher by
(05:29):
the name of Marion Diamond. So she requested this and
three years later, because you know, he's on it, he's
he's on a road trip. It's going to take him
a while, that the Manna's Jar arrived. And this was
a really big moment um for for science really but
still and we'll get to it um. You know, it
didn't become abundantly clear at first how significant this brain
(05:54):
to she was and what Marian Diamond found was so again,
Einstein was a genius. But what is a genius? What
makes genius is something you're you're born with the genius
brain or do you or does it come from like
having the right genius inspiring uh, you know nursery activity, Yes,
it acquired or is that inherent? Um? And according to
(06:15):
neuro researcher Douglas Fields, genius is kind of a grab
bag of genetic and environmental factors. But then you you
hear from people like Dean Keith Simonton and he says
attributes like your mental energy and your openness to new
experiences is genetic um. It's something you can cultivate, right,
like the sense of being open to new experiences. But
(06:35):
if if you're sort of born with this attribute, then
you're a lot more predisposed to go out and explore
new ideas and experiences. And we already know that when
you do that, you're putting your brain through the paces
and you're effectively increasing the white matter in your brain.
And turns out white matter is is really important stuff, right,
and uh, to to to settle exactly what he is
(06:58):
white matter and what is gray matter, because that we've
all heard gray matters used to just sort of a
generic term for your brain, like like to start using
your gray matter there, exercise your gray matter a little,
and you never hear white matter, of right, and in
fact white matter. Some people have made the analogy that
white matter to scientists has been like dark matter to
(07:18):
astrophysicists or a cosmologists, and that for so many years
white matter just was completely unknown. We didn't really know
what the deal was with white man. We know it's there,
but we don't really know what it is. Just cottage
cheese or what. Yeah, no, it turns out, is not
cottage cheese, yogurt goat cheese. I wonder if the zombie
(07:39):
would prefer the white or the gray or is it
like is it like a white and dark meat in turkey? Well,
it depends, it depends. Um, I've never heard this this
this post before. That's a good question. Let's let's answer
that at the end of this podcast. Let's perclate on that.
Let's let's not steer completely off of course. Another way
of thinking about gray matter that I ran across was
a scientific American had had this a bit where they
(08:00):
were comparing it to soil. They said, the gray matter
is and this is you know where a mental computation
takes plays, memories are stored. Um, this cortex is the
top soil of the brain, all right, densely packed neuron
all cell bodies, decision making making parts of the nerve
cells or neurons. Underneath it, you have the bedrock and
this is the white matter. And this feels nearly half
(08:22):
the human brain. And and this is a really important
thing that we'll discuss here in a minute, is that
this is a far larger percentage than found in the
brains of other animals like humans are really packing the
white matter. If they are packing the white matter and
the Yeah, the white matter consists of bundles of long
nerve fibers and they conduct electrical signals between nerve cells
(08:42):
and they connect different parts of the brain together. So
it's really important to remember that because within the the
white matter or something called glial cells, and we'll talk
about that, but again, Einstein's brain contributed to our understanding
today which is not even complete of what white matter
is and what glial cells are and why they're really
important to of genius or just even intelligent thought. UM.
(09:04):
I did want to say that that Rex Young he
is uh he is. I believe that he's a psychologist,
and he said that highly creative people usually have less
white matter integrity and less brain tissue in the frontal lobes.
And this is important to remember because when they looked
at Einstein's brain, they saw this correlated in there and
they say this could be UM disinhibiting, causing a down
(09:28):
regulation of the decision making judging center of the brain.
So we've talked about this before in a podcast about creativity.
Is that you kind of have to be able to
shut off that part of your brain that is saying no. Basically,
there have been some some situations where the the inhibiting
section of the brain becomes injured or diseased, and you
see at what may seem like a burst of creativity,
(09:50):
but it's really sort of like the creativity is suddenly
unchecked by this inhibition. So it's not it's like column
A doesn't increase, but column B decreases. That's right, that's right.
And so it's important to know that if you have
you know, white cells packed in one area, that's probably
pretty great. Like Enstein had a ton of them in
the area that correlates with mathematics, but not so much
(10:11):
in the frontal loope. Right, So this allowed him to
perhaps turn off that part of his brain that might
have made him feel, uh, you know, preoccupied with other
thoughts and allowed you know, this other part of his
brain to to computate at crazy levels, like to to
to just throw out like sort of genius stereotypes. Like
if you have like the type of person who forgets
(10:31):
to sleep or forgets to bathe because they're like so
into figuring something out, Like that's a situation where the
natural voice that comes in and says, hey, maybe we
should put this away in bathe, or maybe we should
put this away and get back to the other aspects
of our life that are important, like that that voice
is diminished. Is the laundry list choice? Yeah? Yeah, absolutely,
(10:52):
And um, this was interesting. Some of this came out
of a panel that I saw at in New York
at the World Science Festival and was called the Enigma
of Genius, and artist Julie Tamer was on the panel
along with some of the other folks that we were
talking about today. Described to me who Julie tam she
is responsible for, like the Lion King, that's probably something
(11:12):
you know on Broadway that a lot of people know.
It's incredible puppetry, all of that. Um, what she's interpreted
a lot of Shakespeare works. Um, Titus is one she
you know for film and for for Broadway. But she
has a very unique vision, and so she's gotten the
MacArthur Genius Grant. She's someone who a lot of people
feel like have has changed her field. Okay, cool, Yeah,
(11:35):
I think some of her lanking designs were on display
at the Atlanta Center for Puppetry Arts a few years back. Yeah,
and and she was sort of saying, well, you know,
I'm hesitant to to, you know, call myself a genius
or even define genius. But what she was saying is
that in her own creative process, she finds that some
of her best ideas come from early morning sleep. Um,
and it was interesting. I think it was Douglas Fields
(11:56):
who was on the panel, uh that the scientists who said, oh, well,
that is when in the frontal lobes are actually less active.
So again we're seeing this correlation with frontal lobes disinhibiting
and the percolating of ideas happening. And we're seeing that
Einstein had this this low white matter in the frontal lobe.
So that's why you inevitably have that dream that is
(12:17):
either so awesome that you wish could keep going or
it is so horrible that you're like, thank goodness, I
actually woke up from that, Because that's the time when
the inhibition shuts down in creativity is more likely to
just completely slam you with something unbelievable. Yeah, and I
don't have this confirmed, but I have I've heard before
that you tend to dream a lot more in the
(12:37):
early morning hours anyway, so it makes sense that you
know you would remember those dreams. But um, but again
you know, frontal lobes dimmed down, so you can perhaps
have your best ideas then, but we should probably get
back to white matter any fales, right, Um, so sciences
that you're my my white matter was just causing me
(12:58):
to just go off and forget the time time table
here and yeah, you're about to compose a high who
I can tell it was all about like glial self.
I saw you notating it there, um And so okay,
back to Einstein's brain. It's been hanging out for forty
plus years at this point. He quit traveling in UH
nine five. He died in nineteen forty I think is
(13:20):
when excuse me, forty years later he had his big
road trip ninety six. Yeah, he moved back to New
Jersey and he surrenders the remaining pieces of Einstein's brain.
He the pathologist Thomas Hartrty to Dr Elliott Krauss. Yeah,
and this is because his road trip was was not
really effective, because what he was attempting to do in
(13:41):
this road trip is to deliver back the brain to
Einstein's granddaughter Evelyn, who was not interested in it. So yes,
it returned back to Princeton um and Thomas Harvey actually
died in two thousand and seven ruling not even understanding
you know that, but what he did indirectly did have
some bearing on how we understand genius today. Well, he
(14:02):
hung on the brain for that long. I suspect he
really clung to the notion that what he was doing
was a good thing. So yeah, absolutely did Yeah. Uh.
So many scientists at this point they've tinkered with the
tissue from mind sciins brain, and most of them have
done it under a microscope, which isn't telling us a
whole lot um And historically neuro anatomous found no clues
to to his his brain right again, his brain to
(14:25):
the naked eye look like everybody else's because this is
the thinking to wear white matter. I don't know what
it's doing, but gray matter. That's where the neurons, the
neurons are. He doesn't have any more neurons than anybody
else's what they're what they're looking at. And this is
the nineteen eighties, and scientists still believe that, um, you know,
at this point when they're tinkering around with it. Uh,
scientists still believe the important work in the brain is
(14:45):
done by neurons. Right. These are the powerhouses. These are
the brains of the brain, and they're out there doing
you know, specific things, um and mary and diamond. Again,
she observes a disproportionately high number of brain cells. There
are not neurons. They're there again what they're called glia,
which means glue. Wow, And we will get to that
(15:06):
glib right out this quick. Right. That's right. This presentation
is brought to you by Intel sponsors of tomorrow. All right,
back to the glue, back in the glue goog. Yeah.
So this glue, this glia is found in regions of
(15:28):
Einstein cerebral cortex, which is involved in complex reasoning, mathematics
and imagery. And so she's seeing that like highly densely
packed glial cells. And so this shifts the focus from
neurons to glia, and it really upends the fundamental understanding
of how the brain works because heretofore we thought that
the glial cells were basically just the custodians of the brain.
(15:49):
They were clearing away like dead matter essentially, which is
like oversimplification of it um and they didn't seem to
have any electrical impulses. And it's not entirely crazy to
the idea to think that the brain isn't like a
perfect design because I've heard it the you know that
there might be something there that is kind of useless,
(16:09):
Like because I've heard it proposed before that the brain
is kind of like an evolutionary ice cream cone where, um,
each level of evolution it's just a new scoop of
ice cream cortex because evolution. Not to personify too much
is kind of lazy. It's gonna work with what it's got.
It's and it's not gonna I'm really personifying like nuts here.
But but but you get the idea. It's the process
(16:32):
is not going to go back and fine tune everything. Um.
So it's it's it's not ridiculous to think that the
white matter wouldn't be doing anything and at the time
that that was flying right and it was okay, the
white matter it must be helping out the neurotransmitter, right
and and just keeping things clean. Um. But glial cells
do communicate, not through synapses, but through gap junctions. That's
(16:54):
found there's protein channels that connect one cell to one
another like a spaceship talking at the mother station. Okay,
but it's non electric communication. Well, they it's they still
don't know everything about glia yet. UM, So I'm hesitant
to to say that in any certain terms. UM, but
I will say that, you know, in the nineteen nineties,
(17:16):
you had to two or excuse me, new techniques that
emerged from the development of lasers and personal computers grafted
it onto microscopes to better visualize the way that glia behave. Uh.
And then that's when Douglas Fields and other folks began
to describe the glia as the other brain at work,
because they were seeing that these brain cells that actually
were communicating with each other, and they were actually not
(17:38):
just communicating with each other at eavesdropping on neural cells. Right, So, Uh,
glia actually sense electrical activity in the neural circuits and
they can control it. And Field says that if glia
can do this, and it's not unreasonable to assume that
they are one of the reasons for the extraordinary capability
(17:58):
of the human brain, and ignoring them until now might
help explain why the cellular basis for a genius has
remained elusive. So what we're talking about here is that
the glial cells are giving you the sort of supercharged
um ability to communicate with the rest of your brain.
So it's really it's sort of like the motor of
(18:20):
the sort of like the engine of the car. It
provides the processor speed for yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So
in fields book The Other Brain, he says, here are
cells that can build the brain of a fetus, direct
the connection of its growing axons to wire up the
nervous system, repair it after it's injured, release neurotoxic or
neuroprotective factors, plug and unplug synapses, give birth to neowe neurons,
(18:42):
communicate with the vascular and immune systems, insulate the neuro
neural lines of communication, and control the speed of impulse
traffic through them. And some people ask could these cells
have anything to do with higher brain function? How could
they possibly not? But it's just how he said it. Okay, yeah,
So it's important to us though, because what they've discovered
(19:03):
is that glial cells are there, they continue to form
until like greatly to a certain degree, until you're okay,
So what is this point to that you need to
use those You need to grow these cells when you
have a chance. Yes, And that it's not it's not
just that you are born with a brain and there's
(19:24):
your brain. It means that your brain is developing rapidly
still up until you're twenty. But essentially that everything, all
the experiences, everything that you're doing until h twenty are
really going to highly determine this sort of brain that
you have for the rest of your life. But and
it doesn't even stop there. But we're just saying that
the bulk of the brain is being developed. Wow, So
I dare say, are under twenty listeners are doing exactly
(19:46):
the right thing by listening to this podcast right now? Yeah? Yeah,
And I mean this that's the other thing. You know.
I hope that you're playing chess. I hope that that
your mathlete um, you know. I hope that that you're
you're messing around with music, because these are again, all
these things, all these paces that you're putting your brain through,
all these new experiences, are really helping to shape what
(20:06):
your brain is wants to be, yes, yeah, or what
you wanted to be really yeah, just throw some stuff
at it, see what sticks and d open to new exactly.
I mean, it's it's all about like I mean, it's
kind of like beliefs. Try believing something new every day,
you know, learn about learn about something new every day
to find out about the different system and don't like
close your mind off to different visions of you know
(20:27):
what reality consists? Up? That's right, because I mean you
can actually see it. Um you know this, this sort
of this transformation take place in your brain. You see
new pathways being created. How cool? Is that? Cool? Now?
What happened now? After twenty though it's not necessarily it's
not closes because I know that the over twenty listeners
(20:48):
are like, well, great, what am I doing? Waste of
my time? And they like switch off and go straight
to I don't know whatever you listen to if you
don't want to learn anything, Um, I don't. Yeah, just silent.
That's just like Islands silence. No, I think it's not
Kardashian Kardashians. Yeah, not to be conclude fused with Kardassians
right from the start from Star Trek. No, yes, exactly. Yeah,
(21:09):
because I was talking with some people the other day,
what if there was a show meet the Cardassians. Surely
somebody has done a periody of that already. But anyway,
for over twenty, white matter over twenty, Yes, hope for
the future for people with brains that are older than
twenty because white matter continues to develop into our forties.
I get past forty, so you know, over the hill
not so much. Recent studies showed up versus teaching juggling
(21:33):
to healthy adults, showed that learning the new skill caused
white matter changes. So just just juggling alone and healthy
adults can can you know, so continue to exercise your brain,
you know, because you can still beef it up, That's right.
And we've talked about neural plasticity before too, and we
just keep learning more and more about this, and I
think this is the important takeaway with this well as well,
(21:55):
is that we still don't know everything about the brain.
We've talked about the Blue Brain Project, trying to map
the human in brain, trying to figure out, you know,
the seat of consciousness, all these really exciting cool things
that are happening. And just recently we saw an article
about how they're using skin cells to turn into brain cells.
Oh yeah, this was this is a pretty awesome idea. Yeah,
And and I mean basically what they're trying to do
(22:16):
is treat Parkinson's with us. But I mean the the
idea is that you could apply this to other areas
in the brain and actually help to repair, as you know,
parts of the brain that have been damaged. Yeah, and
it also really turns the whole question on its head
that we've asked before, like what happens what's it like
to have a three hundred, four hundred year old brain?
(22:38):
And and if we could live to be nine, like
we discussed in nine nine nine birthday candles, if you
could live to be eight hundred years old, would you
have like this cranky old eight hundred year old brain
in your you know, your your nice young body? Why
would I U? Why would I juggle your kids with juggling?
And you know you just set on a bunch of
money and hate everything. But non possibly not, because if
(23:01):
you could continue to um to liven up the your
white matter, um, you could continue to have this uh,
this changing brain. You can continue to have near plasticity,
you know, well into your eight hundreds at least, right,
which makes that proposition a lot be all right? Right,
when we talked about the downside about this is that
you know, of course you've talked about all sort of becoming,
(23:22):
you know, Charlie Sheen's at some point we're all too
given to our demons like I will become a horrible
person and live forever. No yeah, yeah, no, and he's
going to pull through. Okay, But but I mean the
point is is that, you know, if this technology bears
some fruit, and even if it's you know, longevity of
(23:42):
another fifty years, it's great to know that we have
these things that are at our fingertips. They're strying to
developed and actually help us live healthily, minded and literally
at our fingertips. Because yeah, there you go, nicely done.
All right. Well, Einstein's brain, um, which is not currently
(24:03):
on the road, but hopefully it'll go on to her
against it. Yeah yeah. And zombies, what do you did
you ever make a decision on them about great gray
meat versus white meat? I don't know. I just don't know.
Generally they don't seem to be that concern. But I
bet they're, like, I've explored the idea, there's some and
they're going to be particular about it. Yeah, they'll sit
(24:25):
around and critique the glia cells. Yeah cool. Well, I
have some listener mail here. Um, let's see which one
I want to read. You know these look good? Okay, Um,
here's one from Timothy. He says, hello, stuff to blow
your mind crew, that's us. During your iPod People podcast,
you had mentioned briefly how repetitive music can help during writing.
(24:48):
This used to be my experience during high school in
college when I would pocket my discmand remember those and
play trance music during chores. It would cause me to
enter the altered state you described where I would tune
out and go and go, and to quote autopilot, the
real life would become a dream like background in my thoughts.
I found that my most creative thinking would occur at
these times, and I often find myself stopping to run
(25:10):
off and scribble down my thoughts. Unfortunately, like a really
good dream, the written version usually lost something in translation. Incidentally,
at my current job as a digital artist, I've been
known to have a similar experience during your your podcast.
I'm a science and philosophy nuts, so I'd love to
hear a podcast about cellular automata, the holographic principle, or
(25:32):
the EPR paradox. Thanks, we will add those, sup, We'll
check it out. Uh. Well, that's awesome. I love I mean,
I especially love the idea that that people can listen
to what we're discussing. If some of these ideas were
bringing up and then turn that into something else, uh,
you know, creatively. Uh oh yeah. I always feel like
each podcast has, you know, possibilities with fiction, blank and age.
(25:56):
You can't take you pretty much any of this. And
I think there's actually is there a film or a
book about Einstein's branding on the road. Um, I don't know.
I don't know that it's nonfiction, but if if anybody
hasn't been there is, there is a nonfiction version for sure.
But for fiction, I don't know. I just keep thinking
the idea of it, like being put into a robot
like in RoboCop too, where they had the brain and
(26:18):
the big machine that battles robocops. But but he wouldn't
be battling robocot naturally, he'd be womanizing and working on relativity. Yeah. Um,
well cool, let's see, do we have anything else to
read here? Yes? Here's another one from Alex. Alex says,
I was recently introduced to your podcast by my best
friend as well as my sister, who both swore to
(26:40):
me that if I had a podcast, it would be
like this one. I travel a lot for work and
haven't seen many of my friends and months and haven't
seen my family since Thanksgiving, but in the last month
I have downloaded well over a hundred podcasts podcasts podcast
from you as well as your friends at How Stuff
Works UH and Stuff Missed in History, and spent hours
listening intently, a couple of times actually taking notes. Though
(27:03):
none of you ever got to hear me responding to
you in my car, hotel or my tiny coach seat.
I get strange looks now more than ever. I feel
like we would get along if you could uh. Though
the majority of my time is spent alone and away
from home, during the last few weeks, I've begun to
feel like I have friends with me wherever I go.
Thank you all for your company and your appreciation for
obscure knowledge. Your friend Alex ps, you two have the
(27:25):
best intro music. Look at that there was this great
stuff for everybody with an ear shot. I know that.
Yeah r music. Yeah, thanks Alex cool. So Hey, if
you guys have stuff you want to share with us,
especially if you have any thoughts. I don't know if
you have a chunk of mine Stun's brain in your
house in a Manna's jar of a lot of more
(27:47):
sent out maybe you do, um, but no any any
thoughts you have about the continued development of your own
brain or the brains of those around you, UH let
us know. You can share it with us on Facebook
or Twitter. We are blow the Mind on both of those,
and you can also drop us a line at blow
the Mind at how stuff works dot com. Be sure
(28:09):
to check out our new video podcast, Stuff from the Future.
Join how Stuff Work staff as we explore the most
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