July 31, 2025 • 41 mins
In this episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind, Robert chats with Egyptologist, author and educator Colleen Darnell about ancient Egyptian religion, warfare and of course vintage fashion.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My
name is Robert Lammon. Today I'm chatting with Egyptologist doctor
Colleen Darnell, author and co author of multiple books on
ancient Egypt, who many of you may know from her
Vintage Egyptologist Instagram account that's vintage underscore Egyptologist, and her
popular Zoom classes on various Egyptology topics. So about further ado,
(00:36):
Let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Colleen, welcome to
the show.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Hello, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
A lot of your work, you know, I'm thinking about
your excellent Instagram feeds, but also your Zoom classes. This
work is aimed at making learning about hieroglyphics and ancient
Egypt more accessible. How did these projects come together and
how's it going.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I have always felt like one of my main goals
as an academic is to take all of my research,
to take the scholarship that has been done in Egyptology
for well over one hundred years and make it something
that people can understand, while at the same time not
leaving off the nuance. I feel like a lot of
times things get oversimplified, and I don't think that's fair either.
(01:23):
So I've been very lucky through Instagram and just because
I was on a lot of documentaries before, to be
a part of Lost Treasures of Ancient Egypt on the
Natio Channel and a lot of other documentaries, and with
the lockdowns and COVID, I started a Zoom Egyptology program
teaching how to read hieroglyphs in twenty twenty one. I
(01:45):
have been doing that ever since and the program has
grown tremendously. Hundreds of people from twenty countries have taken
hieroglyphic courses and even more the lecture classes.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Wow, what is the experience level tend to be for
folks taking your classes? Are there a lot of newcomers?
Are there academics, people in college and so forth?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's really everybody. I even have a genius eleven year
old who takes the hieroglyphic classes, and it really runs
from high school students. Occasionally I do get someone who's
actually studying in a program for a master's or bachelor's
(02:30):
and just wants a little bit more hieroglyphic experience or
is particularly interested in a topic them offering as a
lecture class, say something on magic and religion or not,
nor the pre dynastic periods, something that they can't get
as part of their program. So it has actually supplemented
some people's actual academic coursework. And then just a tremendous
amount of people adults and they're working, they have kids,
(02:54):
they want to take Zoom classes, or they're retired. And
I love it when sisters, where husbands and wives do
it together. It's a lot of fun. It can become
a family experience awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So especially I'm guessing with newcomers and general audience folks,
what are some of the key preliminary ideas you like
to stress about ancient Egypt and or the ancient Egyptian
language when they enter into these classes.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
In terms of the language, the first thing that I
always have to stress is that no matter how artistic
each individual hieroglyphic can be, and they truly can be
miniature works of art, the majority of signs are phonetic
in usage. So there are signs that are direct representation
or word signs. There are signs that are classifying signs
that we called determinatives that have no phonetic value, but
(03:43):
the majority that you see in a hieroglyphic inscription, are
going to actually write the sounds of the ancient Egyptian language.
And what I do in the hieroglyphic classes is take
people from that very beginning and then build up bit
by bit by bit. I think sometimes people are a
little surprised about grammar because you expect Greek and Asia Latin,
you're gonna have to memorize a lot of grammar, and
(04:05):
the same is true with the Egyptian although in some
ways the grammar's a little bit less complex simply because
of the way the conjugation system works. In terms of
the lecture classes, something that I try to always stress
is the ancient Egyptian civilization was not perfect. No civilization
ever has been or will be. But their ideal was
(04:28):
something called mot cosmic justice, define balance and order. And
their sense of mot basically right and wrong, is shockingly
similar to our own. And so even if they didn't
live up to that idea, it's really interesting and very important,
(04:48):
and very rarely emphasized the extent to which the Egyptians
wanted to follow this moral code and prided themselves, from
kings all the way down to farmers that they acted
in a morally upright and compassionate way to both people
who were in positions of authority. But they also talk
(05:11):
about giving bread to the hungry, taking care of the
orphan and the widow. And then because it's ancient Egypt,
they talk about farrying the boatless person. And there's a
word boatless that's actually a single word in ancient Egyptian.
So in terms of the writing, the phonetic aspects, and
in terms of overall ancient Egyptian civilization, emphasizing something that
(05:34):
I think the ancient Egyptians themselves would really want us
to have as the first thing we know when we
are approaching their history and society and religion.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Now, I was looking at a book that you co
wrote with John Coleman Darnell, Egypt's Golden Couple When Natan
and Nephertidi were gods on Earth explores the impact that
this ancient power couple had on the Egyptian kingdom. Can
you give us just a little taste of this? How
did this couple change the world.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
One of the unusual aspects of the reign of Achnan
and Efertiti is the extent to which they concentrated political
religious and economic power in their capital city of ahid
Aaden and seem to have been directly responsible for the
mean religious rituals. Where in the tombs even of the
(06:25):
High Priest of Aten, we don't see the high priest
doing his day to day activities or directly worshiping the
Sun God, which is what we would expect both before
and after the reign of Aughnan and Efertiti. Instead, we
see the royal family worshiping Aughten and going about their
day to day lives, which are themselves transposed into this
(06:45):
ritual setting. What this means then is that not Neverrititi
have interposed themselves between people and the gods. And while
a king is supposed to mediate between mankind and the
celestial realm, it is to facilitate that interaction. People in
(07:06):
ancient Egypt could make prayers, could address the gods directly,
even outside temple ritual What's unusual then about Aknan and
Evertiti is the extent to which they put themselves in
that role of gods to be worshiped, and then they
can interact with the ultimate solar deity, who is Atten.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Now. I love the way that this book opens up
discussing examples of just very contradictory historical interpretations of Acnaton
and at his queen Nephrititi. You know, on one hand,
just a savior that changes the world for the better,
like almost like a Jesus or Buddha type figure, as
(07:47):
you discuss, and then on the other hand, views that
he's an incestuous, twisted monster that brings a reign of terror.
Why have these two been viewed in such extreme ways
and where where does the truth seem to lie?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Some of those extreme perspectives on Acnaton and Evertdy have
to do with the chronological development of scholarship. So a
lot of the christ like interpretation of Achnaton is earlier
in the twentieth century James Henry breasted Arthur Weigel, and
as you move forward in time, there is an increasingly
(08:20):
cynical perspective, and I think it had reached at certain
points a true fever pitch of Achnaton as twisted monster.
And we diagnose this essentially as a problem with not
going back to the primary sources, and that when you
do go back to the primary sources, a lot of
(08:41):
scholarship still relies on interpretations of earlier Egyptologists. And one
of the best examples of this, and the longest chapter
in the book, is there's an inscription from the very
beginning of within the first five years of Achnaton's Raim,
where all earlier translations, in every single reference to this
text was that the gods, the statues of the gods ceased,
(09:07):
they stopped. But that doesn't make sense. The ancient Egyptians
know that statues don't move. Now, rituals can stop, statues
can fall down, but the Egyptians wouldn't expect a statue
to move, So how could a statue just stop? And
as it turns out, it's a much more common verb,
(09:28):
a homophone that means to desire. And what I'm not
is actually saying is that he's doing what the gods desire. Now,
ultimately he's only going to do what Aunton desires and
deny the existence of other gods. But in that particular text,
he's not yet as radical as he's going to be.
But because when you're looking at the rain of Aknaton,
(09:51):
almost everybody looks at him through the perspective of what's
happening than in their own time. And that's been true
ever since People have discussed doc mount in ebertity or
assumptions that have previously been made, and where we thought
we could really contribute to the scholarship of achnant in
epertity was re examining every single primary source and questioning
(10:13):
the exact meaning of every word in order to arrive
at new conclusions that might have been missed simply because
of the bias of this is how the word has
been translated, this is how it must continue to be translated,
and not thinking, wow, there might be a totally different
way to view this particular action.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That's fascinating, But I thought I might might go ahead
and ask what does the name mean? Ocnoton how do
we translate this?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
The first word in Achnaton's name is this root ach
that means luminosity or effectiveness, and those two concepts are
related in each Egyptian because of the very fact that
sunlight causes changes, they were well aware of bad effect.
The next that n actually means four is a preposition,
(11:08):
and Aten is the name of the god. So if
we were to break it apart in ancient Egyptian grammatical terms,
it would be Ah and Aten and the vowels themselves.
The fact that is ah n auten achnaton rather than
achna tone with an oh at the end. They didn't
write the vowels in Egyptian in what sounds like vowels
(11:30):
when I say ah, for example, that ah is actually
not a vowel. It's an olive, which is a semi
vocal consonant, and that that can get a little bit confusing,
but that's the best sort of approximation.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, we when we cover ancient Egyptian topics on the
show here, I feel like I'm always wrestling with exactly
how I should be saying any any particular name, Like
even with some of the more well known gods, like
is it ray? Is it raw? Is there like a
of agreed upon standards in Egyptology today?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
There isn't, So ray raw. Both are the same in
terms of how you're gonna see or pronounced the A
or a is that we say actually comes from an ion.
So if you're pronouncing the I in correctly, say in Arabic,
then you're getting a little bit closer to the ancient Egyptian.
(12:27):
But because that's a sound that doesn't exist in Indo
European languages, we just fudget and do a vowel. But
when you're reading hieroglyphs, you not only look at the
hieroglyphs themselves, but before you get to an English translation,
we do an extra step, and it's an artificial step.
It's not something the Anian Egyptians would have done, which
is called transliteration. So there are actually specific characters. A
(12:50):
lot of them are just consonants in you know that
we have R, B, M and those days the same.
But for these sounds that don't exist, say in English,
although they do exist in other Afroisiatic languages, there are
particular characters that you use. So when we're actually looking
at something written that's mostly agreed upon and consistent, but
(13:14):
everyone pronounces it a little bit differently, and it doesn't
because it doesn't affect the clarity of what we're actually saying,
it tends not to be a big problem.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Now, as you're also co author in the book Tutan
Commons Armies, I thought i'd ask a couple of ancient
military questions. When it comes to the aesthetics often associated
with ancient Egypt, I've always found that that Kepish sword
very striking, this kind of long curved sickle like blade,
I think you know, no matter you know where the
(13:54):
listener falls into the Egyptology Egypt Domania sort of spectrum.
I've probably seen some depiction, be it realistic or exaggerated,
of this, and it may, I guess, be easy to
just look at it as being like overly stylized. But
what was the purpose of this design and how is
it used?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
The ancient Egyptian hepesh sword looks like a sickle, as
you say, it's it's very striking esthetically, but the cutting
blade is actually on the outside. This is a weapon
that we first really see come into common use in
the New Kingdom. There are several examples buried in the
tomb of Chion Common, including one smaller one that has
(14:34):
a sharper blade that might have been used a little
bit more as when you would use a sword. The other,
a larger hebesh sword, has more of a chisel white blade.
It might have been used more like an axe, not
something that would have had as much slicing power as
a sword. There are also thinner, rapier type swords that
(14:57):
were probably used by chariot tears, but those are relatively
uncommon in the archaeological record.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, this is I found all this fascinating because I
guess you know, from like a you know, modern and
then European perspective, we we we look at these weapons
and we think about them in terms of tools or
weapons that we're familiar with, like the sickle or like
the sword, when the way you describe it, yeah, maybe
an axe is actually a better comparison to make here.
(15:23):
Now you mentioned the chariot, I wanted to ask a
question about the chariot as well, because I feel like
this is such an icon of ancient Egyptian art and
certainly you see it in and depictions of ancient Egypt
be accurate or not. And uh, I often feel like
this is a technology that we're very far removed from
in the modern world, you know, like how do we
(15:45):
how do we look at the chariot and how do
we appreciate it, you know, in comparison to things like
maybe a person riding a horse on a modern saddle
or uh, you know, some manner of kart. Can you
tell us just a little bit about how important the
development of the cheir it was to ancient Egyptian warfare.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
The cherio comes into Egypt about sixteen hundred BC and
domesticated horses, possibly a little bit earlier, so it takes
quite some time to go from the domestication of the
horse around four thousand BC on the steps of Kazakhstan
all the way into the ancient Eies. Horses and chariots
transform warfare into ancient Egypt. It becomes the third branch
(16:25):
of the Egyptian military. They had a very well developed
infantry and navy. And because that adoption of the horse
around sixteen hundred BC coincides with the expulsion of the
foreign dynasty ruling over the northern part of Egypt, the
so called Hixos dynasty, they are expelled around fifteen fifty BC,
(16:46):
and at that point, with the founding of the New Kingdom,
the Egyptians make a decision to expand their empire both
to the north and to the south. They had to
the south before, but they go even further to the north,
not only to gain resources and greater access to trading routes,
but also to have a buffer zone so to prevent
(17:07):
further foreign conquest. So there's a number of reasons for
that empire, and the chariot is part of that. The
big set piece battles of the Bronze Age are battles
bought between chariots with infantry support. You mentioned how we
conceptualize ancient battles and ancient weapons through comparisons with what
(17:30):
we know, right, and sometimes you will read I don't
think this happens as much anymore, but that the chariot
was like the tank of the ancient world. And that's
not true at all, because horses do not like to
crash into one another, nor will they run in charge
into infantry, and certainly you don't want to do that
(17:50):
with the chariot because chariots were very expensive. That's another
interesting aspect of the move towards chariot work in the
Bronze is it's a warfare for highly developed and wealthy
civilizations because you have to be able to invest in
the horses themselves, the pasturage, the training facilities, training the
(18:13):
crews building the chariots. They were the really advanced vehicles,
advanced technology of the dead. And the use of a
chariot in battle is as a mobile archers platform. So
there are other civilizations, for example, the hit Heights who
fight against the Egyptians at this famous Battle of Kotash
(18:37):
during the reign of Ramsey's The second, the hit Heights
view the chariot, or have outfitted their chariots with three people,
essentially more like mobile infantry and moving people from one
place to another and then fighting more as ground troops.
The classic Egyptian chariot, which was much lighter, you could
(18:58):
carry it a single person and could carry the cab
of the chariot. It's remarkable, And with the archers inside
the cab and then one person driving, you could essentially
deliver projectiles all across the front of the opposing force
and then circle back around and then the infantry could
(19:20):
be brought in.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Wow. So it sounds like if one were too roughly
compare it to some piece of modern military technology, it
would actually maybe be more accurate to compare it to say,
like a jet fighter or something, or obviously not in
the air, but more of a certainly a ground attack scenario.
But in terms of being something expensive, mobile and arranged
(19:43):
in nature.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I like that comparison.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Well, thank you, Yeah, you've given me a whole new
way to think about the chariot here. Now, a number
of our listeners here in Stuff to Blow your Mind
are film fans, and I was excited to see that
you have conducted zoom classes on ancient Egypt as depicted
in film. So I have a couple of questions about this,
starting certainly more on the Egypt Domania side of things.
(20:09):
Do you have a particular guilty pleasure from Egypt Domania cinema?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I do like some movies set in ancient Egypt, although
I would say less guilty pleasure, only because the ancient
Egyptians themselves cast their history in entertaining fictional terms. In
a book I wrote in twenty thirteen called Imagining the Past,
I identified four works of ancient Egyptian historical fiction, meaning
(20:37):
they actually wrote the fiction set three hundred years for example,
Rain of Ramsey's the second about twelve fifty, and then
they're setting something three hundred years, two or three hundred
years earlier. I think the at Egyptians would appreciate, at
least that people are trying now some of those details. Yes,
very annoying, and that's actually one of the reasons why
I decided to teach the class is not so much
(21:01):
enjoying all the movies, but using them as a jumping
off point, because the visual nature, the dialogue, the sets,
the characters, everything about that gives you a starting point
for them saying, Okay, what about this is accurate? What
about this is based on something but has been manipulated
(21:21):
in a way that actually works to support the story
and doesn't go against generally what we know about ancient
Egypt And where is it just flat out wrong and
they should have never done it. So that was that
was how I approached the class. And the ancient Egyptian
film was so much fun to prepare. We did mummy movies,
we did epics so Cleopatra, Tank Commandments, and then some
(21:46):
movies that are much less well known, such as the
Polish film Pharaoh, which is by far the best in
terms of costumes and sets. Costumes especially, it's incredible and
those were designed by an Egyptian costume set designer and
(22:07):
director named Shadi Afto Salam. And so I highly recommend
the Polish film Pharaoh.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Oh wow, this is so this is from nineteen sixty six. Yes, excellent. Yeah,
I have not seen this, but this looks this looks remarkable.
Now I'm a film that I know that you're a
fan of. I wanted to ask about as well, because
I was not familiar with this. I have to admit
to my own inexperience with Egyptian cinema as an actual
(22:34):
Egyptian cinema. Yeah, I was very interested in mentioned of
this nineteen sixty nine film, The Night of Counting the Years.
Can you tell us a little bit about this film
and why it's important.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Absolutely. It's also called The Mummy, so a couple of
different titles there, and it was directed by Shadi aftal Salam,
the same man who did the costume signs for Pharaoh,
and he also did some costume designs for Cleopatra for
the Great Makowitz disaster, that is Cleopatra, although sadly many
(23:08):
of them were not incorporated as much as they should
have been into the movie. Night of Counting the Years
is a fictionalized version of what happened in the eighteen
eighties with an Egyptian family living on the west bank
of Luksor called the Abbetol Russuls, and they had found
a royal cache, so not just a single royal tomb,
(23:31):
but a place where dozens of mummies from the New
Kingdom in early third Interviewedia period had been re ramped
and then cashed put into a single burial which is
a little bit to the south of the Temple of
Hotch episode at darl Bahri and John and I actually
(23:51):
got to go down there. It's not open to the public.
It had not been opened, i think for fifteen years.
They knocked away the concrete and we got to go
down there to film an episode of Lost Treasures of Egypt.
It was one of my favorite experiences. So it's absolutely
it's based on a real event, although the names are
changed in Shadi albal Salam's movie. And the Egyptologists, the
(24:13):
French Egyptologists who were in charge of the antiquity service
at the time, had realized that this was going on,
that some royal toom have been found because various antiquities
were popping up on the market, and two of the
brothers turned on one another and that's how everything was
found out. And then the material was taken in much
haste from Luxor to the Chiro Museum the Bulock Museum
(24:37):
in Cairo at the time, and that was news all
over the world, very very dramatic, and the mummies ended
up being the mummies of the New Kingdom pharaohs. So
those are the mummies that you can see now beautifully
displayed in the National Museum of Egyptian civilization through the
movie Night of County in the Years then, Shadiy Alvdala
(24:58):
Salam uses this movie as a commentary on the view
of the past by the present and doing this through
the lens of neorealism. The other part that I really
loved about this movie in the context of my Ancient
Egyptian film class, is that there were ancient Egyptian tomb
robbers that actually moved the mummies from their original burials
(25:22):
into this cash it's called the Deerro Bahri cash. And
those tomb robbers weren't working just on their own for
their own profit. They were actually sponsored by the Paronic government.
At the end of the New Kingdom, the Varonic government,
the king lost control over Nubia. There was a revolt
(25:43):
by a Nubian general named pana Hesse, and because of that,
Egypt lost control over the main gold mining regions and
they needed the gold. There was an economic crisis at
the time, and realized that there was lots of gold
to be had in the Valley of the Kings. And
so we know the names of the ancient tomb robbers.
(26:05):
We have their letters, three thousand year old letters talking
about keeping their activities private because even though they were
state sponsored, they still didn't want everybody else in their
village to know what was going on. So it's this
murder mystery scandal, and it's their actual letters. It just
(26:27):
blows my mind. We even have one of the men's
houses in a temple. It's a man named Bhutahamen. So
the story both of what actually happened in the eighteen
eighties with the discovery of the cash and the story
from three thousand years previously with how the mummies made
it there is incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Oh wow, So the Night of counting the Years? Would
you frame it as a neo realistic drama like an
art house drama? A certainly not? To be clear, even
though it is sometimes titled the Mummy, is this has
nothing to do with the supernatural Mummy films?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Correct? So it is. It is absolutely a drama about
that family and about the relationships between the brothers and
also coming to terms with the moral implications of robbing
ancient tubes. The mummy in the title. The term mummy
in the title references the ancient mummies that are then
(27:28):
being used for modern profit for the family.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
And there is a.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Murder and so it's all of this family drama but
shot in just a beautiful, beautiful way.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, I'll have to check this one out. I think
in the past it's been featured on the Criterion Channel,
but I'll have to hunt around to see where I can.
I can find it today now, serious Egyptology and entertaining
(28:03):
Egypt Domania share a history of a foreign interpretation in
both time and space, as well as legacies obviously of
conquest and colonialism. Where do you feel like we are
today in terms of international fascination with and study of
the ancient Egyptian world? What has changed and what still
needs to change?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
It is amazing to see the new museum, the Grand
Egyptian Museum, which will be opening by the end of
this year, becoming an international sensation, the largest museum in
the world dedicated to a single civilization. Half of it,
a little less than half of it, is already open.
The Grand Staircase set in this dramatic architectural setting. When
(28:51):
you come up to the second floor, you have one
of the most beautiful vistas of the Giza Pyramids, and
then three entire galleries that takes you through from the
pre Dynastic period all the way to the Roman era,
but in three different tracks, so you can look at
daily life, you can look at religion, and then the
(29:12):
king and the political system. And I just I think
that is so brilliant because you can go across them
then and look at all three features in the pre
Dynastic period or in the Middle Kingdom, or you can
essentially go through the chronology of Egypt three different times.
So even before the two oncomon material is open and
(29:33):
again that should be the last quarter of the years
is where it's been announced. It is something that is
beautiful and such an amazing presentation of ancient Egyptian cultural
heritage and history. The Tahariir Museum, the Egyptian Museum at
Taker Square is also should absolutely still be on everybody's
(29:54):
muscy list. Some of the most famous artifacts from ancient Egypt,
the normal talent, the burials of YuYu and Tuyas with
the gold from the Tanis tombs are still on display.
So what I love about fascination with Egypt as it
then is bringing more and more people to Egypt, and
I love that trend, and I love trying to be
(30:17):
just a little bit of a part of that trend.
Knowing so many people who have been in my classes
have then gone to Egypt and seen all of this firsthand.
But there are more sites being opened every year, and
really exciting places and tombs as well as these new museums.
And in terms of what needs to change, I think
(30:39):
it is the public fascination often with things that are
entirely unfounded in facts, and in terms of who constructed
the pyramids, how they constructed the pyramids, the date of
the sphinx. We could go on and on, but that
I think is the thing about the fascination with ancient
(31:02):
Egypt that most needs to change is the primary sources.
And I think the story I told just now about
ancient tim rubbers, that's way more exciting than anything that
is made up. So getting out there the actual information
that is so much more unbelievable in some ways than
(31:27):
just imagining, well, people couldn't have built the pyramids, but
this much must have happened, even though we have not
only the names of the people who build the pyramids,
the barracks of the people who built the pyramids, and
on other pyramids and temples, the remains of mud brick ramps,
which tells us exactly how they built the pyramids, and
(31:48):
a papyrus journal found a little over a decade ago
by a French Egyptologist that is actually a diary of
the man who brought some of the stones that were
the last to put on the top of the Great Pyramid.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Okay, as we're reaching the end of the interview, I
have to ask a couple of vintage clothing questions, because
you are, of course per Instagram the vintage Egyptologists. A
lot of listeners know you from that Instagram account, Vintage Egyptologists,
Vintage Underscore Egyptologists. Could you tell us how your passions
for vintage clothing and ancient Egypt live together on the feed.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
I love being able to put vintage fashion and ancient
Egypt together because it helps not only me get doing
express it two of my main passions in both topics,
but also use the visual medium of Instagram as well
as the general interest in fashion to present a lot
(32:44):
of details about ancient Egypt. And I can do that
both through my reels where I'm actually explaining hieroglyphs and
talking about an ancient Egyptian topic very specifically, or use
the visuals of a particular item of vintage fashion, whether
it be in nineteen thirties evening down or in eighteen
fifteen Empire style dress, and then discuss how this might
(33:04):
relate to ancient Egyptian fashion or just a jumping off
point for another topic. My interest in vintage fashion actually
comes from a little bit different place than my interest
in ancient egypt And it's a coincidence that my favorite
silhouette happens to be the same decade that the tumor
common was discovered. Through vintage fashion and collecting, that's also
(33:28):
given me new perspectives on studying ancient Egyptian fashion and clothing.
And I'm in the process of doing some additional work
on how there might be an interaction between the way
fabrics are used, for example in the nineteen thirties, and
how that might inform the way a single rectangular piece
of cloth could be wrapped around the body and maybe
(33:50):
have a different silhouette than is often imagined.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And how about in the field do do vintage fabrics
hold up well if you were a say, you know,
exploring a tomb or out in a desert environment, out
in the field.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I wear the vintage clothing I wear in the field
are typically seventies, eighties, nineties khakis and tons, and I
mean every now and then it'll be something new, but
pretty much for that it's used clothes out in the field.
And where in attention to vintage makes a difference is
(34:25):
just being able to check absolutely certain that what you
were wearing is one hundred percent conton because even two
percent of an artificial fiber in one hundred and twenty
degree heat makes a huge difference. So looking for those
older fabrics can be really important, But what's mostly about
(34:47):
is just the composition of the fabric and that it
has to be one hundred percent cotton. Linen is also
pretty cool, but cotton cotton is always the best and
light colored fabrics, so that that's the connection with the feel.
But otherwise it's used clothes, not vintage clothes for the
(35:07):
archeological work.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
All right, I want to zoom back out and ask
a broader question here. I've been asking about Egyptomania, serious
interest in ancient Egypt. I feel like all of the
sesuss at one point or another, Like you know, maybe
we watch a Mummy movie when we're a kid, but
then that leads to a more serious interest in ancient
Egyptian topics. So when did any of this sees you
(35:32):
for the first time, and how did you decide to
pursue Egyptology as your profession.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
I've been interested in ancient Egypt ever since I was
a child. I know that's a really common phenomenon, a
little less common to pursue it professionally. It was really
from reading books, and a lot of it was looking
at images of hieroglyphs and really wanting to be able
to read them. So that was that was the driving passion,
(35:59):
was wanting to read hieroglyphs, wanting to read the cursive
version on the virus hiratic and I have been so
lucky to be able to do that and pursue it.
And I decided to pursue it professionally when before I
applied to Yale University and then going for my bachelor's
and my PhD. And it's been amazing then getting to
(36:21):
not only have taught in a university environment, but also
now to be able to take that love of teaching
and people's love of learning and do it in such
a pure way where there aren't any grades, there isn't
any pressure, and you just get to have fun. And learn,
and I love that about my zoom classes and what
(36:44):
I'm able to do now.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Well, speaking of your zoom classes, for listeners who are
interested in these, who want to learn more about Ancient
Egypt and hieroglyphs in the Ancient Egyptian religion, among other topics,
where can they learn more? Where can they find more
information about these classes?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Can find me on Instagram as you mentioned before, at
Vintage Underscore Egyptologists, and my website call lead Darnell dot com,
which is where I put up information about my classes,
and you can subscribe to my newsletter and be the
first to find out. And I am excited to announce
that in September I will be doing a news section
of how to Read Hieroglyphs Unit one, and that is
(37:22):
a five hour class. It meets one hour a week
for five weeks and it goes from the very basics
of how to read hieroglyphs all the way to being
able to read a funerary formula so that even if
you only do five hours of Ancient Egyptian, you can
make an Ancient Egyptian spirit happy. I mean, yeah, I
teach everyone enough hieroglyphs so obviously, and then you can continue.
(37:43):
I have students who have been doing this for one year,
two years, all the way from the beginning of four
years ago, and they can read entire literary texts not
only in hieroglyphs, and religious texts not only in hieroglyphs,
but directly from pup hyarate. So it's not like you
just do a couple things and then oh, there's nothing
more to move on to you. Really it's a serious program,
(38:07):
and when you get to the upper levels, it's the
same sort of work you would be doing in a
university setting. In terms of lecture classes. For those people
who don't want to dive into or necessarily learn a
new language, the lecture classes don't require any previous knowledge.
And the next one coming up is going to be
on demons and exorcism and magical practices, which will be
(38:31):
a lot of fun, and we'll be reading some direct
ancient Egyptian spells and talking about what a demon really
is in Ansian Egypt because it might not be what
everybody thinks.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Oh well, I know that we have listeners that are
going to be very interested in that. Well, excellent Collen,
thanks for coming on the show. With me today, taking
time out of your day to chat about Ancient Egypt,
hiweraglyphs and all of these exciting opportunities.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Thanks again to doctor Colleen Darnell for taking time out
of her day to chat with me. This one is
a real treat again. You can follow her on Instagram
at Vintage Underscore Egyptologist and learn more about her classes
and books at her website Colleen Darnell dot com. Oh hey,
and I have one more thing to add here. In
post production, Colleen asked that we passed this along. If
(39:23):
you've ever wondered what is fact and what is fiction
about Indiana Jones and his quest for the Arc of
the Covenant, well you can tune into her ninety minute
webinar Ancient Egypt at the Movies Indiana Jones. This is
going to meet live on Zoom on Thursday, August twenty first,
from two to three thirty pm and eight to nine
thirty pm US Eastern Time. It's going to be a
(39:44):
vividly illustrated presentation. She's going to introduce you to the
first recorded Egyptian archaeologist, real ancient tomb robbers and the
intact royal tombs that were found at Tennis So it
sounds like a good time. You can find out more
about that at her website. Just your reminder to everyone
out there that's Stuff to Blow your Mind is primarily
(40:05):
a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays
and Thursdays wherever you get your podcasts. On Fridays, we
also set aside most serious matters to discuss a weird
film on Weird House Cinema. Thanks as always to the
excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you'd
like to get in touch with us, drop us a
line at contact at stuff to blow your Mind dot com.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind production of iHeartRadio.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
Hey you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My
name is Robert Lammon. Today I'm chatting with Egyptologist doctor
Colleen Darnell, author and co author of multiple books on
ancient Egypt, who many of you may know from her
Vintage Egyptologist Instagram account that's vintage underscore Egyptologist, and her
popular Zoom classes on various Egyptology topics. So about further ado,
(00:36):
Let's jump right into the interview. Hi, Colleen, welcome to
the show.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Hello, I'm so happy to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
A lot of your work, you know, I'm thinking about
your excellent Instagram feeds, but also your Zoom classes. This
work is aimed at making learning about hieroglyphics and ancient
Egypt more accessible. How did these projects come together and
how's it going.
Speaker 3 (01:00):
I have always felt like one of my main goals
as an academic is to take all of my research,
to take the scholarship that has been done in Egyptology
for well over one hundred years and make it something
that people can understand, while at the same time not
leaving off the nuance. I feel like a lot of
times things get oversimplified, and I don't think that's fair either.
(01:23):
So I've been very lucky through Instagram and just because
I was on a lot of documentaries before, to be
a part of Lost Treasures of Ancient Egypt on the
Natio Channel and a lot of other documentaries, and with
the lockdowns and COVID, I started a Zoom Egyptology program
teaching how to read hieroglyphs in twenty twenty one. I
(01:45):
have been doing that ever since and the program has
grown tremendously. Hundreds of people from twenty countries have taken
hieroglyphic courses and even more the lecture classes.
Speaker 2 (01:58):
Wow, what is the experience level tend to be for
folks taking your classes? Are there a lot of newcomers?
Are there academics, people in college and so forth?
Speaker 3 (02:09):
It's really everybody. I even have a genius eleven year
old who takes the hieroglyphic classes, and it really runs
from high school students. Occasionally I do get someone who's
actually studying in a program for a master's or bachelor's
(02:30):
and just wants a little bit more hieroglyphic experience or
is particularly interested in a topic them offering as a
lecture class, say something on magic and religion or not,
nor the pre dynastic periods, something that they can't get
as part of their program. So it has actually supplemented
some people's actual academic coursework. And then just a tremendous
amount of people adults and they're working, they have kids,
(02:54):
they want to take Zoom classes, or they're retired. And
I love it when sisters, where husbands and wives do
it together. It's a lot of fun. It can become
a family experience awesome.
Speaker 2 (03:07):
So especially I'm guessing with newcomers and general audience folks,
what are some of the key preliminary ideas you like
to stress about ancient Egypt and or the ancient Egyptian
language when they enter into these classes.
Speaker 3 (03:20):
In terms of the language, the first thing that I
always have to stress is that no matter how artistic
each individual hieroglyphic can be, and they truly can be
miniature works of art, the majority of signs are phonetic
in usage. So there are signs that are direct representation
or word signs. There are signs that are classifying signs
that we called determinatives that have no phonetic value, but
(03:43):
the majority that you see in a hieroglyphic inscription, are
going to actually write the sounds of the ancient Egyptian language.
And what I do in the hieroglyphic classes is take
people from that very beginning and then build up bit
by bit by bit. I think sometimes people are a
little surprised about grammar because you expect Greek and Asia Latin,
you're gonna have to memorize a lot of grammar, and
(04:05):
the same is true with the Egyptian although in some
ways the grammar's a little bit less complex simply because
of the way the conjugation system works. In terms of
the lecture classes, something that I try to always stress
is the ancient Egyptian civilization was not perfect. No civilization
ever has been or will be. But their ideal was
(04:28):
something called mot cosmic justice, define balance and order. And
their sense of mot basically right and wrong, is shockingly
similar to our own. And so even if they didn't
live up to that idea, it's really interesting and very important,
(04:48):
and very rarely emphasized the extent to which the Egyptians
wanted to follow this moral code and prided themselves, from
kings all the way down to farmers that they acted
in a morally upright and compassionate way to both people
who were in positions of authority. But they also talk
(05:11):
about giving bread to the hungry, taking care of the
orphan and the widow. And then because it's ancient Egypt,
they talk about farrying the boatless person. And there's a
word boatless that's actually a single word in ancient Egyptian.
So in terms of the writing, the phonetic aspects, and
in terms of overall ancient Egyptian civilization, emphasizing something that
(05:34):
I think the ancient Egyptians themselves would really want us
to have as the first thing we know when we
are approaching their history and society and religion.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
Now, I was looking at a book that you co
wrote with John Coleman Darnell, Egypt's Golden Couple When Natan
and Nephertidi were gods on Earth explores the impact that
this ancient power couple had on the Egyptian kingdom. Can
you give us just a little taste of this? How
did this couple change the world.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
One of the unusual aspects of the reign of Achnan
and Efertiti is the extent to which they concentrated political
religious and economic power in their capital city of ahid
Aaden and seem to have been directly responsible for the
mean religious rituals. Where in the tombs even of the
(06:25):
High Priest of Aten, we don't see the high priest
doing his day to day activities or directly worshiping the
Sun God, which is what we would expect both before
and after the reign of Aughnan and Efertiti. Instead, we
see the royal family worshiping Aughten and going about their
day to day lives, which are themselves transposed into this
(06:45):
ritual setting. What this means then is that not Neverrititi
have interposed themselves between people and the gods. And while
a king is supposed to mediate between mankind and the
celestial realm, it is to facilitate that interaction. People in
(07:06):
ancient Egypt could make prayers, could address the gods directly,
even outside temple ritual What's unusual then about Aknan and
Evertiti is the extent to which they put themselves in
that role of gods to be worshiped, and then they
can interact with the ultimate solar deity, who is Atten.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
Now. I love the way that this book opens up
discussing examples of just very contradictory historical interpretations of Acnaton
and at his queen Nephrititi. You know, on one hand,
just a savior that changes the world for the better,
like almost like a Jesus or Buddha type figure, as
(07:47):
you discuss, and then on the other hand, views that
he's an incestuous, twisted monster that brings a reign of terror.
Why have these two been viewed in such extreme ways
and where where does the truth seem to lie?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Some of those extreme perspectives on Acnaton and Evertdy have
to do with the chronological development of scholarship. So a
lot of the christ like interpretation of Achnaton is earlier
in the twentieth century James Henry breasted Arthur Weigel, and
as you move forward in time, there is an increasingly
(08:20):
cynical perspective, and I think it had reached at certain
points a true fever pitch of Achnaton as twisted monster.
And we diagnose this essentially as a problem with not
going back to the primary sources, and that when you
do go back to the primary sources, a lot of
(08:41):
scholarship still relies on interpretations of earlier Egyptologists. And one
of the best examples of this, and the longest chapter
in the book, is there's an inscription from the very
beginning of within the first five years of Achnaton's Raim,
where all earlier translations, in every single reference to this
text was that the gods, the statues of the gods ceased,
(09:07):
they stopped. But that doesn't make sense. The ancient Egyptians
know that statues don't move. Now, rituals can stop, statues
can fall down, but the Egyptians wouldn't expect a statue
to move, So how could a statue just stop? And
as it turns out, it's a much more common verb,
(09:28):
a homophone that means to desire. And what I'm not
is actually saying is that he's doing what the gods desire. Now,
ultimately he's only going to do what Aunton desires and
deny the existence of other gods. But in that particular text,
he's not yet as radical as he's going to be.
But because when you're looking at the rain of Aknaton,
(09:51):
almost everybody looks at him through the perspective of what's
happening than in their own time. And that's been true
ever since People have discussed doc mount in ebertity or
assumptions that have previously been made, and where we thought
we could really contribute to the scholarship of achnant in
epertity was re examining every single primary source and questioning
(10:13):
the exact meaning of every word in order to arrive
at new conclusions that might have been missed simply because
of the bias of this is how the word has
been translated, this is how it must continue to be translated,
and not thinking, wow, there might be a totally different
way to view this particular action.
Speaker 2 (10:36):
That's fascinating, But I thought I might might go ahead
and ask what does the name mean? Ocnoton how do
we translate this?
Speaker 3 (10:44):
The first word in Achnaton's name is this root ach
that means luminosity or effectiveness, and those two concepts are
related in each Egyptian because of the very fact that
sunlight causes changes, they were well aware of bad effect.
The next that n actually means four is a preposition,
(11:08):
and Aten is the name of the god. So if
we were to break it apart in ancient Egyptian grammatical terms,
it would be Ah and Aten and the vowels themselves.
The fact that is ah n auten achnaton rather than
achna tone with an oh at the end. They didn't
write the vowels in Egyptian in what sounds like vowels
(11:30):
when I say ah, for example, that ah is actually
not a vowel. It's an olive, which is a semi
vocal consonant, and that that can get a little bit confusing,
but that's the best sort of approximation.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
Yeah, we when we cover ancient Egyptian topics on the
show here, I feel like I'm always wrestling with exactly
how I should be saying any any particular name, Like
even with some of the more well known gods, like
is it ray? Is it raw? Is there like a
of agreed upon standards in Egyptology today?
Speaker 3 (12:04):
There isn't, So ray raw. Both are the same in
terms of how you're gonna see or pronounced the A
or a is that we say actually comes from an ion.
So if you're pronouncing the I in correctly, say in Arabic,
then you're getting a little bit closer to the ancient Egyptian.
(12:27):
But because that's a sound that doesn't exist in Indo
European languages, we just fudget and do a vowel. But
when you're reading hieroglyphs, you not only look at the
hieroglyphs themselves, but before you get to an English translation,
we do an extra step, and it's an artificial step.
It's not something the Anian Egyptians would have done, which
is called transliteration. So there are actually specific characters. A
(12:50):
lot of them are just consonants in you know that
we have R, B, M and those days the same.
But for these sounds that don't exist, say in English,
although they do exist in other Afroisiatic languages, there are
particular characters that you use. So when we're actually looking
at something written that's mostly agreed upon and consistent, but
(13:14):
everyone pronounces it a little bit differently, and it doesn't
because it doesn't affect the clarity of what we're actually saying,
it tends not to be a big problem.
Speaker 2 (13:34):
Now, as you're also co author in the book Tutan
Commons Armies, I thought i'd ask a couple of ancient
military questions. When it comes to the aesthetics often associated
with ancient Egypt, I've always found that that Kepish sword
very striking, this kind of long curved sickle like blade,
I think you know, no matter you know where the
(13:54):
listener falls into the Egyptology Egypt Domania sort of spectrum.
I've probably seen some depiction, be it realistic or exaggerated,
of this, and it may, I guess, be easy to
just look at it as being like overly stylized. But
what was the purpose of this design and how is
it used?
Speaker 3 (14:14):
The ancient Egyptian hepesh sword looks like a sickle, as
you say, it's it's very striking esthetically, but the cutting
blade is actually on the outside. This is a weapon
that we first really see come into common use in
the New Kingdom. There are several examples buried in the
tomb of Chion Common, including one smaller one that has
(14:34):
a sharper blade that might have been used a little
bit more as when you would use a sword. The other,
a larger hebesh sword, has more of a chisel white blade.
It might have been used more like an axe, not
something that would have had as much slicing power as
a sword. There are also thinner, rapier type swords that
(14:57):
were probably used by chariot tears, but those are relatively
uncommon in the archaeological record.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Yeah, this is I found all this fascinating because I
guess you know, from like a you know, modern and
then European perspective, we we we look at these weapons
and we think about them in terms of tools or
weapons that we're familiar with, like the sickle or like
the sword, when the way you describe it, yeah, maybe
an axe is actually a better comparison to make here.
(15:23):
Now you mentioned the chariot, I wanted to ask a
question about the chariot as well, because I feel like
this is such an icon of ancient Egyptian art and
certainly you see it in and depictions of ancient Egypt
be accurate or not. And uh, I often feel like
this is a technology that we're very far removed from
in the modern world, you know, like how do we
(15:45):
how do we look at the chariot and how do
we appreciate it, you know, in comparison to things like
maybe a person riding a horse on a modern saddle
or uh, you know, some manner of kart. Can you
tell us just a little bit about how important the
development of the cheir it was to ancient Egyptian warfare.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
The cherio comes into Egypt about sixteen hundred BC and
domesticated horses, possibly a little bit earlier, so it takes
quite some time to go from the domestication of the
horse around four thousand BC on the steps of Kazakhstan
all the way into the ancient Eies. Horses and chariots
transform warfare into ancient Egypt. It becomes the third branch
(16:25):
of the Egyptian military. They had a very well developed
infantry and navy. And because that adoption of the horse
around sixteen hundred BC coincides with the expulsion of the
foreign dynasty ruling over the northern part of Egypt, the
so called Hixos dynasty, they are expelled around fifteen fifty BC,
(16:46):
and at that point, with the founding of the New Kingdom,
the Egyptians make a decision to expand their empire both
to the north and to the south. They had to
the south before, but they go even further to the north,
not only to gain resources and greater access to trading routes,
but also to have a buffer zone so to prevent
(17:07):
further foreign conquest. So there's a number of reasons for
that empire, and the chariot is part of that. The
big set piece battles of the Bronze Age are battles
bought between chariots with infantry support. You mentioned how we
conceptualize ancient battles and ancient weapons through comparisons with what
(17:30):
we know, right, and sometimes you will read I don't
think this happens as much anymore, but that the chariot
was like the tank of the ancient world. And that's
not true at all, because horses do not like to
crash into one another, nor will they run in charge
into infantry, and certainly you don't want to do that
(17:50):
with the chariot because chariots were very expensive. That's another
interesting aspect of the move towards chariot work in the
Bronze is it's a warfare for highly developed and wealthy
civilizations because you have to be able to invest in
the horses themselves, the pasturage, the training facilities, training the
(18:13):
crews building the chariots. They were the really advanced vehicles,
advanced technology of the dead. And the use of a
chariot in battle is as a mobile archers platform. So
there are other civilizations, for example, the hit Heights who
fight against the Egyptians at this famous Battle of Kotash
(18:37):
during the reign of Ramsey's The second, the hit Heights
view the chariot, or have outfitted their chariots with three people,
essentially more like mobile infantry and moving people from one
place to another and then fighting more as ground troops.
The classic Egyptian chariot, which was much lighter, you could
(18:58):
carry it a single person and could carry the cab
of the chariot. It's remarkable, And with the archers inside
the cab and then one person driving, you could essentially
deliver projectiles all across the front of the opposing force
and then circle back around and then the infantry could
(19:20):
be brought in.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Wow. So it sounds like if one were too roughly
compare it to some piece of modern military technology, it
would actually maybe be more accurate to compare it to say,
like a jet fighter or something, or obviously not in
the air, but more of a certainly a ground attack scenario.
But in terms of being something expensive, mobile and arranged
(19:43):
in nature.
Speaker 3 (19:44):
I like that comparison.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
Well, thank you, Yeah, you've given me a whole new
way to think about the chariot here. Now, a number
of our listeners here in Stuff to Blow your Mind
are film fans, and I was excited to see that
you have conducted zoom classes on ancient Egypt as depicted
in film. So I have a couple of questions about this,
starting certainly more on the Egypt Domania side of things.
(20:09):
Do you have a particular guilty pleasure from Egypt Domania cinema?
Speaker 3 (20:13):
I do like some movies set in ancient Egypt, although
I would say less guilty pleasure, only because the ancient
Egyptians themselves cast their history in entertaining fictional terms. In
a book I wrote in twenty thirteen called Imagining the Past,
I identified four works of ancient Egyptian historical fiction, meaning
(20:37):
they actually wrote the fiction set three hundred years for example,
Rain of Ramsey's the second about twelve fifty, and then
they're setting something three hundred years, two or three hundred
years earlier. I think the at Egyptians would appreciate, at
least that people are trying now some of those details. Yes,
very annoying, and that's actually one of the reasons why
I decided to teach the class is not so much
(21:01):
enjoying all the movies, but using them as a jumping
off point, because the visual nature, the dialogue, the sets,
the characters, everything about that gives you a starting point
for them saying, Okay, what about this is accurate? What
about this is based on something but has been manipulated
(21:21):
in a way that actually works to support the story
and doesn't go against generally what we know about ancient
Egypt And where is it just flat out wrong and
they should have never done it. So that was that
was how I approached the class. And the ancient Egyptian
film was so much fun to prepare. We did mummy movies,
we did epics so Cleopatra, Tank Commandments, and then some
(21:46):
movies that are much less well known, such as the
Polish film Pharaoh, which is by far the best in
terms of costumes and sets. Costumes especially, it's incredible and
those were designed by an Egyptian costume set designer and
(22:07):
director named Shadi Afto Salam. And so I highly recommend
the Polish film Pharaoh.
Speaker 2 (22:13):
Oh wow, this is so this is from nineteen sixty six. Yes, excellent. Yeah,
I have not seen this, but this looks this looks remarkable.
Now I'm a film that I know that you're a
fan of. I wanted to ask about as well, because
I was not familiar with this. I have to admit
to my own inexperience with Egyptian cinema as an actual
(22:34):
Egyptian cinema. Yeah, I was very interested in mentioned of
this nineteen sixty nine film, The Night of Counting the Years.
Can you tell us a little bit about this film
and why it's important.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
Absolutely. It's also called The Mummy, so a couple of
different titles there, and it was directed by Shadi aftal Salam,
the same man who did the costume signs for Pharaoh,
and he also did some costume designs for Cleopatra for
the Great Makowitz disaster, that is Cleopatra, although sadly many
(23:08):
of them were not incorporated as much as they should
have been into the movie. Night of Counting the Years
is a fictionalized version of what happened in the eighteen
eighties with an Egyptian family living on the west bank
of Luksor called the Abbetol Russuls, and they had found
a royal cache, so not just a single royal tomb,
(23:31):
but a place where dozens of mummies from the New
Kingdom in early third Interviewedia period had been re ramped
and then cashed put into a single burial which is
a little bit to the south of the Temple of
Hotch episode at darl Bahri and John and I actually
(23:51):
got to go down there. It's not open to the public.
It had not been opened, i think for fifteen years.
They knocked away the concrete and we got to go
down there to film an episode of Lost Treasures of Egypt.
It was one of my favorite experiences. So it's absolutely
it's based on a real event, although the names are
changed in Shadi albal Salam's movie. And the Egyptologists, the
(24:13):
French Egyptologists who were in charge of the antiquity service
at the time, had realized that this was going on,
that some royal toom have been found because various antiquities
were popping up on the market, and two of the
brothers turned on one another and that's how everything was
found out. And then the material was taken in much
haste from Luxor to the Chiro Museum the Bulock Museum
(24:37):
in Cairo at the time, and that was news all
over the world, very very dramatic, and the mummies ended
up being the mummies of the New Kingdom pharaohs. So
those are the mummies that you can see now beautifully
displayed in the National Museum of Egyptian civilization through the
movie Night of County in the Years then, Shadiy Alvdala
(24:58):
Salam uses this movie as a commentary on the view
of the past by the present and doing this through
the lens of neorealism. The other part that I really
loved about this movie in the context of my Ancient
Egyptian film class, is that there were ancient Egyptian tomb
robbers that actually moved the mummies from their original burials
(25:22):
into this cash it's called the Deerro Bahri cash. And
those tomb robbers weren't working just on their own for
their own profit. They were actually sponsored by the Paronic government.
At the end of the New Kingdom, the Varonic government,
the king lost control over Nubia. There was a revolt
(25:43):
by a Nubian general named pana Hesse, and because of that,
Egypt lost control over the main gold mining regions and
they needed the gold. There was an economic crisis at
the time, and realized that there was lots of gold
to be had in the Valley of the Kings. And
so we know the names of the ancient tomb robbers.
(26:05):
We have their letters, three thousand year old letters talking
about keeping their activities private because even though they were
state sponsored, they still didn't want everybody else in their
village to know what was going on. So it's this
murder mystery scandal, and it's their actual letters. It just
(26:27):
blows my mind. We even have one of the men's
houses in a temple. It's a man named Bhutahamen. So
the story both of what actually happened in the eighteen
eighties with the discovery of the cash and the story
from three thousand years previously with how the mummies made
it there is incredible.
Speaker 2 (26:48):
Oh wow, So the Night of counting the Years? Would
you frame it as a neo realistic drama like an
art house drama? A certainly not? To be clear, even
though it is sometimes titled the Mummy, is this has
nothing to do with the supernatural Mummy films?
Speaker 3 (27:06):
Correct? So it is. It is absolutely a drama about
that family and about the relationships between the brothers and
also coming to terms with the moral implications of robbing
ancient tubes. The mummy in the title. The term mummy
in the title references the ancient mummies that are then
(27:28):
being used for modern profit for the family.
Speaker 2 (27:31):
And there is a.
Speaker 3 (27:32):
Murder and so it's all of this family drama but
shot in just a beautiful, beautiful way.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
Yeah, I'll have to check this one out. I think
in the past it's been featured on the Criterion Channel,
but I'll have to hunt around to see where I can.
I can find it today now, serious Egyptology and entertaining
(28:03):
Egypt Domania share a history of a foreign interpretation in
both time and space, as well as legacies obviously of
conquest and colonialism. Where do you feel like we are
today in terms of international fascination with and study of
the ancient Egyptian world? What has changed and what still
needs to change?
Speaker 3 (28:24):
It is amazing to see the new museum, the Grand
Egyptian Museum, which will be opening by the end of
this year, becoming an international sensation, the largest museum in
the world dedicated to a single civilization. Half of it,
a little less than half of it, is already open.
The Grand Staircase set in this dramatic architectural setting. When
(28:51):
you come up to the second floor, you have one
of the most beautiful vistas of the Giza Pyramids, and
then three entire galleries that takes you through from the
pre Dynastic period all the way to the Roman era,
but in three different tracks, so you can look at
daily life, you can look at religion, and then the
(29:12):
king and the political system. And I just I think
that is so brilliant because you can go across them
then and look at all three features in the pre
Dynastic period or in the Middle Kingdom, or you can
essentially go through the chronology of Egypt three different times.
So even before the two oncomon material is open and
(29:33):
again that should be the last quarter of the years
is where it's been announced. It is something that is
beautiful and such an amazing presentation of ancient Egyptian cultural
heritage and history. The Tahariir Museum, the Egyptian Museum at
Taker Square is also should absolutely still be on everybody's
(29:54):
muscy list. Some of the most famous artifacts from ancient Egypt,
the normal talent, the burials of YuYu and Tuyas with
the gold from the Tanis tombs are still on display.
So what I love about fascination with Egypt as it
then is bringing more and more people to Egypt, and
I love that trend, and I love trying to be
(30:17):
just a little bit of a part of that trend.
Knowing so many people who have been in my classes
have then gone to Egypt and seen all of this firsthand.
But there are more sites being opened every year, and
really exciting places and tombs as well as these new museums.
And in terms of what needs to change, I think
(30:39):
it is the public fascination often with things that are
entirely unfounded in facts, and in terms of who constructed
the pyramids, how they constructed the pyramids, the date of
the sphinx. We could go on and on, but that
I think is the thing about the fascination with ancient
(31:02):
Egypt that most needs to change is the primary sources.
And I think the story I told just now about
ancient tim rubbers, that's way more exciting than anything that
is made up. So getting out there the actual information
that is so much more unbelievable in some ways than
(31:27):
just imagining, well, people couldn't have built the pyramids, but
this much must have happened, even though we have not
only the names of the people who build the pyramids,
the barracks of the people who built the pyramids, and
on other pyramids and temples, the remains of mud brick ramps,
which tells us exactly how they built the pyramids, and
(31:48):
a papyrus journal found a little over a decade ago
by a French Egyptologist that is actually a diary of
the man who brought some of the stones that were
the last to put on the top of the Great Pyramid.
Speaker 2 (32:02):
Okay, as we're reaching the end of the interview, I
have to ask a couple of vintage clothing questions, because
you are, of course per Instagram the vintage Egyptologists. A
lot of listeners know you from that Instagram account, Vintage Egyptologists,
Vintage Underscore Egyptologists. Could you tell us how your passions
for vintage clothing and ancient Egypt live together on the feed.
Speaker 3 (32:24):
I love being able to put vintage fashion and ancient
Egypt together because it helps not only me get doing
express it two of my main passions in both topics,
but also use the visual medium of Instagram as well
as the general interest in fashion to present a lot
(32:44):
of details about ancient Egypt. And I can do that
both through my reels where I'm actually explaining hieroglyphs and
talking about an ancient Egyptian topic very specifically, or use
the visuals of a particular item of vintage fashion, whether
it be in nineteen thirties evening down or in eighteen
fifteen Empire style dress, and then discuss how this might
(33:04):
relate to ancient Egyptian fashion or just a jumping off
point for another topic. My interest in vintage fashion actually
comes from a little bit different place than my interest
in ancient egypt And it's a coincidence that my favorite
silhouette happens to be the same decade that the tumor
common was discovered. Through vintage fashion and collecting, that's also
(33:28):
given me new perspectives on studying ancient Egyptian fashion and clothing.
And I'm in the process of doing some additional work
on how there might be an interaction between the way
fabrics are used, for example in the nineteen thirties, and
how that might inform the way a single rectangular piece
of cloth could be wrapped around the body and maybe
(33:50):
have a different silhouette than is often imagined.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And how about in the field do do vintage fabrics
hold up well if you were a say, you know,
exploring a tomb or out in a desert environment, out
in the field.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I wear the vintage clothing I wear in the field
are typically seventies, eighties, nineties khakis and tons, and I
mean every now and then it'll be something new, but
pretty much for that it's used clothes out in the field.
And where in attention to vintage makes a difference is
(34:25):
just being able to check absolutely certain that what you
were wearing is one hundred percent conton because even two
percent of an artificial fiber in one hundred and twenty
degree heat makes a huge difference. So looking for those
older fabrics can be really important, But what's mostly about
(34:47):
is just the composition of the fabric and that it
has to be one hundred percent cotton. Linen is also
pretty cool, but cotton cotton is always the best and
light colored fabrics, so that that's the connection with the feel.
But otherwise it's used clothes, not vintage clothes for the
(35:07):
archeological work.
Speaker 2 (35:09):
All right, I want to zoom back out and ask
a broader question here. I've been asking about Egyptomania, serious
interest in ancient Egypt. I feel like all of the
sesuss at one point or another, Like you know, maybe
we watch a Mummy movie when we're a kid, but
then that leads to a more serious interest in ancient
Egyptian topics. So when did any of this sees you
(35:32):
for the first time, and how did you decide to
pursue Egyptology as your profession.
Speaker 3 (35:37):
I've been interested in ancient Egypt ever since I was
a child. I know that's a really common phenomenon, a
little less common to pursue it professionally. It was really
from reading books, and a lot of it was looking
at images of hieroglyphs and really wanting to be able
to read them. So that was that was the driving passion,
(35:59):
was wanting to read hieroglyphs, wanting to read the cursive
version on the virus hiratic and I have been so
lucky to be able to do that and pursue it.
And I decided to pursue it professionally when before I
applied to Yale University and then going for my bachelor's
and my PhD. And it's been amazing then getting to
(36:21):
not only have taught in a university environment, but also
now to be able to take that love of teaching
and people's love of learning and do it in such
a pure way where there aren't any grades, there isn't
any pressure, and you just get to have fun. And learn,
and I love that about my zoom classes and what
(36:44):
I'm able to do now.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
Well, speaking of your zoom classes, for listeners who are
interested in these, who want to learn more about Ancient
Egypt and hieroglyphs in the Ancient Egyptian religion, among other topics,
where can they learn more? Where can they find more
information about these classes?
Speaker 3 (37:00):
Can find me on Instagram as you mentioned before, at
Vintage Underscore Egyptologists, and my website call lead Darnell dot com,
which is where I put up information about my classes,
and you can subscribe to my newsletter and be the
first to find out. And I am excited to announce
that in September I will be doing a news section
of how to Read Hieroglyphs Unit one, and that is
(37:22):
a five hour class. It meets one hour a week
for five weeks and it goes from the very basics
of how to read hieroglyphs all the way to being
able to read a funerary formula so that even if
you only do five hours of Ancient Egyptian, you can
make an Ancient Egyptian spirit happy. I mean, yeah, I
teach everyone enough hieroglyphs so obviously, and then you can continue.
(37:43):
I have students who have been doing this for one year,
two years, all the way from the beginning of four
years ago, and they can read entire literary texts not
only in hieroglyphs, and religious texts not only in hieroglyphs,
but directly from pup hyarate. So it's not like you
just do a couple things and then oh, there's nothing
more to move on to you. Really it's a serious program,
(38:07):
and when you get to the upper levels, it's the
same sort of work you would be doing in a
university setting. In terms of lecture classes. For those people
who don't want to dive into or necessarily learn a
new language, the lecture classes don't require any previous knowledge.
And the next one coming up is going to be
on demons and exorcism and magical practices, which will be
(38:31):
a lot of fun, and we'll be reading some direct
ancient Egyptian spells and talking about what a demon really
is in Ansian Egypt because it might not be what
everybody thinks.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Oh well, I know that we have listeners that are
going to be very interested in that. Well, excellent Collen,
thanks for coming on the show. With me today, taking
time out of your day to chat about Ancient Egypt,
hiweraglyphs and all of these exciting opportunities.
Speaker 3 (38:55):
Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed
this conversation.
Speaker 2 (39:01):
Thanks again to doctor Colleen Darnell for taking time out
of her day to chat with me. This one is
a real treat again. You can follow her on Instagram
at Vintage Underscore Egyptologist and learn more about her classes
and books at her website Colleen Darnell dot com. Oh hey,
and I have one more thing to add here. In
post production, Colleen asked that we passed this along. If
(39:23):
you've ever wondered what is fact and what is fiction
about Indiana Jones and his quest for the Arc of
the Covenant, well you can tune into her ninety minute
webinar Ancient Egypt at the Movies Indiana Jones. This is
going to meet live on Zoom on Thursday, August twenty first,
from two to three thirty pm and eight to nine
thirty pm US Eastern Time. It's going to be a
(39:44):
vividly illustrated presentation. She's going to introduce you to the
first recorded Egyptian archaeologist, real ancient tomb robbers and the
intact royal tombs that were found at Tennis So it
sounds like a good time. You can find out more
about that at her website. Just your reminder to everyone
out there that's Stuff to Blow your Mind is primarily
(40:05):
a science and culture podcast with core episodes on Tuesdays
and Thursdays wherever you get your podcasts. On Fridays, we
also set aside most serious matters to discuss a weird
film on Weird House Cinema. Thanks as always to the
excellent JJ Possway for producing the show, and if you'd
like to get in touch with us, drop us a
line at contact at stuff to blow your Mind dot com.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
Stuff to Blow your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.
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