October 1, 2025 • 34 mins
Alice Kyteler's witchcraft trial shocked 14th century Ireland. Today, the charges against her are seen largely as nonsense, and more about personal vendettas and struggles for power.
Research:
- Bailey, Michael D. “HISTORICAL DICTIONARY of WITCHCRAFT.” Scarecrow Press. 2003.
- Callan, Maeve Brigid. “The Templars, the Witch, and the Wild Irish: Vengeance and Heresy in Medieval Ireland.” Cornell University Press. 2015.
- “Dame Alice Kyteler.” Historic Kilkenny. https://www.historickilkenny.com/alice-kyteler
- Iribarren, Isabel. “Black Magic to Heresy: A Doctrinal Leap in the Pontificate of John XXII.” Church History , Mar., 2007, Vol. 76, No. 1 (Mar., 2007), pp. 32-60. Cambridge University Press on behalf of the American Society of Church History. https://www.jstor.org/stable/27644923
- “Kilkenny Witch Trials.” Kilkenny Heritage Forum and Kilkenny Heritage Plan. https://kilkennyheritage.ie/2024/12/kilkenny-witch-trials/#:~:text=On%203rd%20November%201324%2C%20Petronilla,world%20for%20centuries%20to%20come.
- Pavlic, Brian A. “Lady Alice Kyteler Is Found Guilty of Witchcraft.” EBSCO. 2022. https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/law/lady-alice-kyteler-found-guilty-witchcraft
- Ledrede, Richard. “A contemporary narrative of the proceedings against Dame Alice Kyteler, prosecuted for sorcery in 1324.” London. Printed for the Camden Society, by John Bowyer Nichols and Son. 1843. https://archive.org/details/b33096831/page/n11/mode/2up
- “A Medieval History.” Kyteler’s Inn. https://www.kytelersinn.com/history-of-the-inn/
- Murphy, Mrs. C.J. “Alice Kyteler.” Old Kilkenny Review. 1953. https://kilkennyarchaeologicalsociety.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/OKR1953-09-Claire-Murphy-Alice-Kyteler.pdf
- Neary, Anne. “The Origins and Character of the Kilkenny Witchcraft Case of 1324.” Proceedings of the Royal Irish Academy: Archaeology, Culture, History, Literature , 1983, Vol. 83C (1983), pp. 333-350. https://www.jstor.org/stable/25506106
- Riddell, William Renwick. “First Execution for Witchcraft in Ireland.” Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology. Vol. 7, Issue 6. 1917. https://scholarlycommons.law.northwestern.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?params=/context/jclc/article/1500/&path_info=83_7JAmInstCrimL_Criminology828_May1916toMarch1917_.pdf
- Seymour, John Drelincourt. “Dame Alice Kyteler the Sorceress of Kilkenny A.D. 1324 (Folklore History Series).” Read Books. 2011.
- Walsh, James. “The Popes and Science: THE HISTORY OF THE PAPAL RELATIONS TO SCIENCE DURING THE MIDDLE AGES AND DOWN TO OUR OWN TIME.” NEW YORK
FORDHAM UNIVERSITY PRESS. 1915. Accessed online: https://www.gutenberg.org/files/34019/34019-h/34019-h.htm - Williams, Bernadette. “The Sorcery Trial of Alice Kyteler.” History Ireland, vol. 2, no. 4, 1994, pp. 20–24. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/27724208
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly
Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. It's officially Halloween season. Yep. Listen,
It's always Halloween season for me. But I understand that's
(00:22):
not how the rest of the world works. I think
the rest of the world is incorrect. But that's fine.
Here we are. It's October. It is just a heads
up for everybody. I have a couple of witchy things
in this mix this year that aren't really all that
halloweeny in my opinion, because it really becomes a deconstruction
of like social problems, right, the way religion has been
(00:48):
used to torture people. Yeah, that happens with a lot
of the witch episodes, honestly, Yeah, there's no way around it.
And in the second one that we're going to talk
about in an upcoming episode, in particular, we talk a
lot there is a lot of research done into it
from a psychological perspective, so we talk a lot about that.
But today we are talking about Alice Kitler, who was
(01:12):
accused of witchcraft and Kilkenny, Ireland. And although the witchcraft
allegations against her are generally seen as nonsense today and
really born out of this interlocking family arguing in a
personal vendetta that she was pulled into and probably some
jealousy for her success in life. Alice Killer often does
(01:35):
not escape suspicion entirely, even through the modern lens, because
a good many people think she may have been essentially
a black widow, so a serial killer who murdered her
husband's for financial gain. You'll see why and you can
come to your own conclusion. But the real tragedy in
the case of Alice Kitler and the witchcraft trial that
(01:56):
really shocked fourteenth century Ireland, in my opinion, has more
to do with a woman she employed, who paid a
very steep price for her association with Alice, and that's
what we're talking about today. In March of thirteen twenty four,
Richard Ladredd, the Bishop of Ossory in Kilkenny, opened an
inquisition into heresy and ossary, claiming a quote diabolical nest
(02:20):
had been uncovered. At the center of that alleged nest
was a woman named Alice Kittler, So the woman that
a lot of people saw as suspicious. This is an
accusation of witchcraft that predates the more commonly known witch
trials by several hundred years. For example, the Salem witch
(02:42):
trials didn't happen until the end of the seventeenth century,
and Norway's Varda witch trials, which we've covered on the
show before, took place a few decades earlier than the
trials in Salem, but that was still in the seventeenth century.
And one of the things that has to be considered
and remembered in this case is the way that heresy
and witchcraft became conflated as instances of heresy, by which
(03:07):
we mean just the rejection of Christianity and or the
Church's influence in people's lives grew in the twelfth to
the fourteenth centuries, Church officials increasingly characterized anyone criticizing the
Church as clearly evil, and that characterization escalated to include
an assumption of association with demons, and witchcraft was soon
(03:30):
part of that mix. The definition of heresy also expanded
from people who actually were working to counter the Church
to basically anyone who expressed any sort of eccentricity or
seemed odd or lived outside a pretty narrow boundary of
societal morese. Additionally, there's an element of time and place
(03:50):
here that is less about people lumping things together and
more about legal definitions. In his twenty twelve book of
Bewitched Land, Witches and Morlocks of Ireland, doctor Robert Kerin
makes the point that this was before Ireland had any
witchcraft laws on the book, so it fell under the
auspices of ecclesiastical law, in which witchcraft was defined specifically
(04:13):
as heresy rather than as a criminal act. So keep
all of that in mind as Alice's story unfolds. Regarding
the Kittler family in Kilkenny, Missus C. J. Murphy, writing
for the Old Kilkenny Review in nineteen fifty three, stated
quote among the Norman families who had settled in the
city was a family named Kittler. Robert le Kitler was
(04:37):
a trader with Flanders toward the end of the thirteenth century.
There was also a William Kittler, but nothing of note
seems to be known of him. The only member of
this family whose name is remembered through the mists of
six centuries is Dame Alice Kittler, whose famous trial for
witchcraft must have shaken all Ireland and had repercussions as
(04:57):
far away as London and Rome. So Alice was born
circa twelve sixty. That was a little more than ninety
years after Kilkenny was officially founded by Charter. Alice's year
of birth is a little wonky if you look it up.
It's sometimes given as twelve eighty. It makes more sense
if that is actually the year of her first marriage,
(05:19):
which is also often listed as twelve eighty. If you
do the math, that makes sense. Another year that popped
up for her birth was twelve sixty three. So it
seems like somewhere along the line a typo or a
misread happened that has proliferated through a lot of write
ups regarding these events. Because twelve eighty gets listed a lot,
just know that Alice's first husband, probably married in twelve eighty,
(05:42):
was William Outlaw. The couple had a son with the
same name as his father, and her husband, William was
a banker, and he did very well for himself. In
thirteen oh two, her husband, William Outlaw Senior, died and
the details of that death are pretty sketchy, but it
seems as though it was considered to be pretty sudden
(06:03):
Alice may have been accused of murdering him, although it's
unclear if that's the case, and there don't appear to
have been any official legal actions taken, so it might
have been a rumor or an accusation that never manifested
in any kind of actual action. But when William Senior died,
their son William took over his father's banking business, and
(06:24):
the younger William became both very wealthy and very influential.
And this was also in part because the Outlaw family,
which if you look it up is sometimes written as
Utlaw ut Lagh, was very well positioned and influential in Dublin.
In the alleged rumors, she was accused of murdering William
(06:44):
Outlaw with the help of a man named Adam Deblund.
Sometimes we're also referenced as Adam Blunt, who she married
soon after William Outlaw's death. While she was with Adam,
she started to work alongside him and his money lending business.
Alice and Adam's marriage didn't last especially long, although they
(07:06):
may have had children together. There's a lack of clarity
about whether William Outlaw was Alice's only biological child, and
that perhaps other children often listed as hers, were actually
step children that had been born during her husband's prior marriages.
Adam Blund, like William Outlaw Senior, died unexpectedly after a
(07:29):
strange illness. In thirteen oh nine. Alice was married to
a third husband, Richard Deval, and after seven years of marriage,
Alice was widowed for a third time, once again, after
her husband developed a sudden illness. Richard died in thirteen sixteen.
After Deval's death, Alice became embroiled in a financial dispute
(07:52):
with his children over his estate. She fought to get
her dour that's some of money that was normally set
aside as a sort of insurance to be paid out
to a widow if her husband should die. She did
eventually get the money. This made it the third fortune
that she had inherited. Alice had become so incredibly wealthy
(08:12):
that she lent money to King Edward. The second one
of her business ventures was an inn which had been
in the family since she was a child, and that
inn still operates today. Yeah, it's actually a popular tourist attraction.
You can go have a drink at the pub that
was owned by the killers. She married her fourth husband,
John Lapour, in thirteen sixteen, and like her other spouses,
(08:37):
Lapour was a man of means. He owned a lot
of property. Eight years into Alice in John's marriage, John
became seriously ill and he was apparently aware that he
might not recover from this illness and wanted to update
his will. And this update left a lot of his holdings,
some say all of his holdings to Alice and her
(08:59):
oldest son, William, and diminished or eliminated what his own
children would receive. When his children visited Alice in John's
home to check in on their father, they were very
distraught at what they saw. He was incredibly gaunt. He
looked as though he had been wasting away for some
time and maybe had not been administered any help. They
(09:22):
got very suspicious, particularly when they realized that their father
had been in the process of amending his will to
leave everything to Alice and William. And at that point
they contacted Bishop Richard Ladredd regarding their suspicions that foul
play was involved and that Alice was the perpetrator. And
coming up, we're going to talk about Richard Ladredd, but
(09:43):
first we will pause for a sponsor break. The year
after Alice had married John Lapour, a new bishop had
moved to the Osary diocese in Kilkenny. That was the
aforementioned Richard the Dread and soon Ladred actually had conflict
(10:08):
with another member of the Lapour family. That was Arnold Lapour,
who was Seneschal of kil Kenny, Wexford and Carlow. The
Lapour family had been in Ireland for at least one
hundred and fifty years. At this point they had become
quite powerful, So a seneschal in this instance is a
government official appointed by the King of England to serve
(10:28):
as an administrator and sort of like substitute ruler in
an area. Because bishops also held a place of political
power and often were in charge of legal matters, this
meant that if a seneschal and a bishop in an
area did not agree, it could cause a lot of strife,
and it definitely did in this instance. One reason there
(10:50):
was this level of tension and overlap was in part
because kil Kenny had grown up around a monastery to
become an important hub for both trade and governance, so
both the church and the secular government felt that they
should have primary say over the way the town was run.
Another issue was that from thirteen oh seven to early
(11:10):
thirteen twenty seven, King Edward the second was the ruler
of England. England had claimed lordship over Ireland, but Edward
the Second was miirred in so many conflicts, both at
home and abroad, that he was ineffectual in a lot
of ways, and a lot of Ireland was just kind
of indifferent to rebellious when it came to anyone from England,
whether from government or the church. So Ledredd right out
(11:33):
of the gate was just viewed as an interloper. Richard
Ledredd was born circa twelve eighty somewhere in England, though
specifics are unknown. His early life in general is not
very well documented. We know he became a Franciscan friar
at some point, and that he eventually made his way
to Avignon when the papal court was there during the
(11:53):
papacy of John the twenty second. There have been some
interpretations of his ride where he describes himself as quote
brought up, educated and promoted under the wings of the
Holy Apostolic see as meaning that he literally grew up
at the papal court. But we don't know that for certain.
(12:15):
It's also been theorized that when la Dread was sent
to the Osary Diocese in thirteen seventeen, that he might
have been tasked with seeking out witchcraft, as that was
something that John the twenty second was concerned about. John
the twenty second was the pope who would write the
doctrine that made witchcraft a form of heresy in the
eyes of the church. Pope John the twenty second was worried,
(12:38):
or at least claimed to be worried about people attacking
him with magic. He had Bishop Hughes Jureau arrested and
charged with attempted murder through sorcery, and other members of
the papal court had similar accusations made against them. We
couch that to say he may have been concerned about it,
(12:58):
because there is plenty of information that suggests this was
a little bit more calculated than actual fear. Some of
these accusations were very likely calculated moves to discredit enemies.
So though the Pope might have genuinely worried about things
like witchcraft and demons, he was also really skilled at
(13:19):
deploying such accusations with very little real concern. Regarding demons,
Kilkenny does seem to have been perceived by the Church
as a potential hotbed for sorcery or some sort of
cultish behavior involving the devil at this time. And this
could have been as simple as it having become an
area of prosperity that was not especially beholden to the Church.
(13:41):
And it seems that Ledread may have certainly learned from
John to twenty seconds example when it came to exploiting
these concerns, real or not, for his own benefit. When
he started his work in Osrey, his first move was
to assemble all the clergy of the area for a
formal meeting, and during that meeting the real lax church
leadership of Kilkenny was informed of all the ways that
(14:04):
it would be tightening up and enforcing new rules, and
that included keeping an eye out for heretics. Meanwhile, Ladread
and Arnold Dupour were at odds just about from the
moment Ladrede arrived. According to an article from the Old
Kilkenny Review that is archived by the kil Kenny Archaeological Society,
(14:24):
Lapour referred to Ladread as quote that vile, rustic peasant
from England. In an argument, Ladred told Lapour that he
did not fear him, and Lapour replied with quote, well, well,
you will meet obstacles wherever you go, indicating that nobody
in the area was going to be especially cooperative. So,
(14:46):
in this atmosphere of conflict, and specifically conflict with the Seneschal,
the Bishop Ledread was very eager to hear the story
that the Lapour family had to tell him about John
Lapour's condition. They described their father's truly troubling state of illness,
which they suspected might be poisoning or even the result
(15:07):
of some sort of bewitching, and they also hinted it
how suspicious it was that Alice's previous three husbands had
also fallen ill. Suddenly, Ladredd charged Alice, her son William Outlaw,
and ten other people that Alice was associated with three
men and seven women with heresy. The specifics of these
(15:28):
charges sound pretty bananas. Soon Alice had been accused of
things like sacrificing animals, of using magic on her husband's
to cause their demises, and of mixing potions in the
skull of a robber. Even the ingredients she was suspected
of using in her skull concoctions were listed, and they
were things like clothes from unbaptized children, hair from buttocks,
(15:52):
yes you heard that correctly, men's fingernails, and even worms.
And with these elixirs, Alice and her associate were accused
of manipulating people's behaviors. The seven accusations leveled at Alice
were one denying the power of Christ and the church.
Two sacrificing animals to a demon named Robert, who she
(16:14):
also had a sexual relationship with. Three asking demons to
advise her in witchcraft. Four having that sexual relationship with
the demon Robert sometimes also called Robin Artisan. This accusation
even describes the shape shifting of the demon, indicating that
it sometimes appeared as an animal and at other times
as an Ethiopian man. Five having covent meetings in the church.
(16:40):
Six making powders and ointments or potions from ingredients, including
those who mentioned a moment ago. The subtext on this
one indicated that it was these potions used in the
seventh accusation, which was seven bewitching her husbands and killing
them for their money. There have been scholarly papers written
(17:00):
that suggests that it was actually Richard Ledredd who introduced
these ideas of demonic interactions into Ireland, as similar stories
had existed in France prior to his assignment at Ossary,
but don't really appear to be part of any Irish
records before he was there. Witchcraft and occult practice had
been known of in the years before Ladread, throughout Europe,
(17:23):
of course, and in Ireland, but it wasn't considered a crime,
either civilly or ecclesiastically. It was only perceived as evil
if it was used to harm, and any charges regarding
it had to do a specific instances in which someone
had wronged someone else, So you could be charged with
using witchcraft to cause someone trouble, like spoiling their crop,
(17:44):
but you'd only be facing the consequences for the damage
to the crop, not for being involved in the occult
or witchcraft. But the time of Ladread in Ireland and
Alice's case are in the early phase of that changing
in Europe as the concept begun, and to include this
idea that in order to achieve some level of proficiency
(18:05):
or power in witchcraft, a person just had to have
made a pact with the devil. There are, of course,
theories that all of the wild accusations thrown at Alice
Kitler were actually catalyzed by Ladred's vendetta against her husband's relative,
Arnold Lapour, because Arnold and Alice were good friends, and
(18:25):
Ladred was frustrated he had been assigned to Ossory but
didn't know anybody or have any friends there, and the
locals were not interested in his authority. Kilkenny was too
remote in terms of the English King to have a
higher up step in to settle these kinds of disputes,
so Ladred didn't have a lot of tools at his
disposal when it came to this ongoing beef with Arnold Lapour,
(18:48):
but he could do what Pope John the twenty second
had done to his enemies, which was take legal action
against people in Arnold Lapour's circle. In the case gets
convoluted almost instantly. When Ledred became concerned that he could
not manage the situation and kill Kenny, he wrote to
the Chancellor of the King in Dublin. This was the
(19:11):
normal order of operations for escalating a situation, but the
chancellor for the King was a man named Father Roger Outlaw,
a relative of Alice's first husband and a cousin of
her son William, and at this point, William, who had
become quite influential, reached out to his cousin Roger and
discussed the matter, and soon both father Roger Outlaw and
(19:33):
Arnold Lapour had written to Richard Ledredd telling him that
he really should just drop the matter. Bishop Ledread was
unwilling to just let it go, though, and he was
insistent that this was an issue of faith that should
not be ignored. He told the Chancellor Roger Outlaw as much,
and the Chancellor's reply, which was intended it would seem
(19:55):
to put an obstacle in Richard's path, said that a
person could not be detained by the church unless they
had been excommunicated for a period of forty days. But
to Ladread, this was not an obstacle exactly. It was
more like a fresh project. He was adamant that heretics
didn't fall under that rule because they were flight risks.
(20:17):
He issued a citation to Alice which came with a
court date, and she promptly did exactly what Ladredd said
that she would, which is that she fled Kilkenny. Her
court date, though went ahead is planned. The Chancellor actually
sent a defense team to handle Alice's case, saying that
she was not required to personally appear to answer a
(20:39):
charge of heresy, so to be clear. The person Ledred
had turned to for help in this matter instead sided
with the accused and used the power of his office
to provide her with legal assistance. But Ladred still went
ahead with the case and he declared Alice excommunicated. The
period of her excommunication was set to more than forty days,
(21:02):
and then he charged her formally with heresy. But since
Arnold Lapour had a significant amount of power in kill Kenny,
he was able to stifle the trial by having Ladread arrested.
He did not want to give witchcraft accusations any oxygen
and he was hoping to just shut the whole thing down.
Bishop Ladread was taken to the prison at Kilkenny Castle
(21:25):
and he was in custody for seventeen days before he
was released. During that time, Arnold Lapour and William Outlaw
offered an open forum for anyone in Kilkenny who had
issues with Ladredd to state those with the assurance that
their complaints would be heard and also pursued. The pair
were surely hoping that enough people would bring them complaints
(21:48):
that they could make a case that la Dread should
be recalled by the Pope, but nobody else filed any complaints.
Realizing that no one was going to come forward, Lapour
had the Bishop released. When he got out, the Bishop
was not especially interested in letting things go. He went
right back to his accusations and even decided he could
(22:09):
issue a judgment against Alice and her associates and his
opinion the matter was settled and she was guilty. Ladred
issued another summons for both Alice Kitler and William Outlaw
to appear before him in ecclesiastical court on these charges,
but Alice's friends and relations once again intervened. King's Chancellor,
(22:29):
Roger Outlaw summoned Bishop Ledread to appear in Dublin in court,
and the date for his hearing just happened to be
the exact same date that Ladred had called Alice and
William to come in to see him. Ladred actually thought
initially that all of this might work out in his favor.
He was at last going to get to lay out
his case against Alice before a higher authority, which is
(22:51):
something he had wanted all along. Arnold Lapour is said
to have waited along the road for Ladred to pass
so he could once again arrest him. But Ladred learned
of this plan and avoided it. But when Richard Ladredd
arrived in Dublin, he found that another trap of sorts
had been laid. Alice Kitler was there and she had
(23:12):
prepared a defamation case against the bishop for accusing her
of heresy and sentencing her to excommunication without a fair trial.
Alice had a lot of money and so she had
a lot of resources, and she had appealed the bishop's
ruling and it went to the parliament in Dublin. Had
she been making this appeal a couple hundred years later,
(23:33):
she might have been in trouble with higher officials. But
her case was before the fevered witch hunts of Europe
and other parts of the world really got into swings.
So a lot of officials came away from these proceedings
thinking that maybe Ladred was not really in touch with reality. Yeah,
they were, like, these charges seem Cokammie to us worked
(23:55):
in Alice's favor, that she is on the early side
of things. Bread had been trying the entire time he
had Alice in his sights to get the authorities in
Dublin to issue a warrant for her arrest so that
he could legally detain her. And now all of the
people he had been trying to get help from were
allied with Alice against him. Now in the King's Court
(24:18):
and as part of the proceedings, Arnold Lapour addressed the
court saying, quote, you know that in Ireland there never
was found heretics, for it is wont to be called
the island of saints. But now a stranger from England
comes and says, we are all heretics and excommunicated, alleging
for this certain papal constitutions which we never heard of.
And since the Infamia of that land touches the person
(24:40):
of us all, it becomes you all to take a
part against him. And Ladred's early rulings were dismissed and
he was sent back to his diocese. But once he
got back to Kokenny, he continued to pursue his case
against Alice. He was so obsessed and so dogged trying
to convince higher ups in the church and in the
(25:02):
government that he was on to something that he eventually
managed to convince a handful of those people to come
to kil Kenny for a court session. He had called
for distance reference. Kill Kenny is about one hundred and
twenty eight kilometers or eighty miles southwest of Dublin. In
a car today, that would take maybe ninety minutes, but
(25:23):
in thirteen twenty four it was a much more time
consuming journey to convince somebody to make They really must
have been hoping they could just show up and put
the matter to rest once and for all, so that
they could get some peace from Richard Ladredd. This hearing
took place in Saint Mary's Church, and the people in
attendance included Chancellor Roger Outlaw, as well as other officials
(25:45):
from Dublin. In this time, Ladredd formally accused William Outlaw
of harboring heretics. In a somewhat odd detail, William appeared
at this hearing in a full suit of armor. And
there is a plot twist coming, So we're actually gonna
pause right here for a sponsor break. During the hearing
(26:15):
on July second, thirteen twenty four, and Kill Kenny, in
which Richard Ledrette accused William Outlaw the Younger of heresy,
things got very heated. The accusers and William's defenders argued
back and forth until Suddenly, all of that bickering was
ended when William confessed to harboring heretics. Part of the
(26:37):
preparations for this event was the questioning of a woman
named Petronilla of Meath, who worked for Alice. Petronella was
one of the people accused of being part of Alice's
nefarious group of witches, and Petronilla was questioned while being whipped.
This is often described as being questioned under torture, and
(26:58):
while whipping would certainly be torturous, just for clarity, this
was not the same kind of torture that would later
be used to question suspected witches. At the time, England
had a law in place against using torture to gain confessions.
Whipping was allowed because Petronilla was a servant and servants
(27:19):
could be whipped according to the law. The whipping was
certainly enough. Petronilla told authorities that she watched Alice practice
witchcraft and had participated and acted as a go between
for Alice and her demon lover. Her recorded testimony was
brought into the court proceedings against William. In fact, her
(27:39):
whole case was based on Petronilla's torture induced confession. Although
William had confessed he was imprisoned only briefly. His negotiated sentencing,
which was issued by Ladred, was surprisingly not all that harsh.
To make penance, he had to agree to attend Mass
three times a day for a year. He also had
(28:02):
to feed the poor and kill Kenny, and he needed
to pay for some needed upkeep to the cathedral and chapel,
specifically the laying of a new lead roof. And William
agreed to the sentence, but he didn't actually follow through
and do those things, and that made Richard Ladredd I rate.
(28:23):
William's disregard for his penance put ladredde in the position
of weakness. He had worked so hard to get to
a point where he had successfully prosecuted at least one
person from the heretic nest he believed was operating and
kill Kenny, only to have his judgment ignored. He wanted
(28:43):
to punish Alice Kitler once and for all, but the
problem was he couldn't find her. He could, however, find
her servant, Petronella, and she would have to serve as
an example. On November three, thirteen twenty four, Petronella became
the first person in Ireland to be burned at the
stake for witchcraft. William, though was once again able to
(29:05):
avoid any harsh punishment, undoubtedly due to his status as
a wealthy and powerful man, he did have to finally
pay for that church roof. As for the other people
that La Dread sentenced alongside Alice, because others in their
group were convicted, there isn't much information regarding their lives
after the trial, and there are actually, undoubtedly because this
(29:29):
is from seven hundred years ago, a lot of really
unsatisfying loose ends in this story. So when did Alice's
fourth husband, John Lapour die? We don't know what happened
to his kids who started all of this with their
accusations unclear? And the big question where did Alice Killer
end up? Because she vanishes and it is generally believed
(29:52):
that she used her vast wealth and connections to escape
to England and she probably lived out the rest of
her life there. She did take Petronella's daughter Basilia, who
had also been accused with her kill. Kenny seemed to
be stuck with Ladredd, though he remained the bishop there
until his death in thirteen sixty. He published his account
(30:13):
of the trial in Latin several years after it was concluded.
In his time in Ireland he was embroiled in witchcraft
and heresy, accusations, claims that people were plotting to kill him,
and complaints sent by various officials, including King Edward the
Third to the Pope asking him to please recall Ladread.
(30:34):
By the time he died, he had a reputation for
terrorizing his parishioners with baseless accusations. Yeah, he was not
satisfied with any of this and really just kept going
to the point that people were like, somebody, come and
get your boy, Ladredd, because more problems than helping any
(30:55):
of us. Uh. In twenty twenty four, Kill Kenny commemorated
the trial and the death of Petronilla with a full
program of events including lectures. They did tours, they had
a reenactment of the trial, and they had a civic
service of atonement and forgiveness in Saint Kanis's Cathedral. Dad
(31:17):
is the story of the first witch burned in Ireland. Yeah,
I have many thoughts that we could talk about on Friday,
and in the meantime I also had a fun email
about sewing. This is from our listener Kelly, who writes
(31:37):
Allow Holly and Tracy. I'm behind, but I've just listened
to your podcast on paper sewing patterns. I wish I
had heard it early, as there was a convention on
sewing patterns in Charlotte, North Carolina in July or August
of this year that I could have told y'all about.
Check out patterncon dot com for more information. She mentions
that it is supposed to be in Atlanta in twenty
twenty six, so I will be on the lookout for
(31:59):
that because that would be fun. It's a brand new convention,
so that's why I had never heard of it. Kelly writes,
Below are my two rescue dogs, Abby, the gray mastive mix,
and Hefner, the tan Staffordshire Terrier mix. Hefner passed away
in January, and we believe Abby is thirteen or even fourteen.
We've had her since twenty thirteen. Also attached is a
(32:19):
dress sewing pattern that I will attempt to make for
my daughter's wedding and the material I will be making
it out of, which is sharmus. Take care, and at
least I will be happy to hear more about home
sewing history any aspect will be interesting to me. Kelly. Okay,
First of all these dogs, those are kissable faces. They're
good ones. Second, the pattern that she shared with us
(32:41):
is when I was very familiar with already. It's a
pattern by charm Patterns, which is a pattern company run
by a woman who goes by Gerty who does like
retro style patterns with some you know, modern cuts and techniques,
and they're amazing. I love them. If you are a
(33:03):
pattern person and you're dismayed at how commercial patterns are
playing out right now, this is a great option. I
have no reason to tout this other than I love
charm Patterns and I follow her Patreon and you get
a free pattern every month with it, and I love it.
I don't make them all, but I love them all.
I cannot wear this particular dress. It is like a
halter thing of the very open back, and I just
(33:24):
am not built for that. But I love it. And
I also want to applaud your bravado in making this
out of Charmus, because Charmus is a pain and that
took us to work with in my opinion, but it
gives me a lovely memory of watching Project Runway this
season that Nick Verios was on and him being in
mood Fabrics and the way he pronounced charmus when speaking
(33:45):
Spanish was chamuz and I will never forget it and
I love it forever. So Kelly, I hope your dress
turns out beautiful, and I also hope you send me
a picture of it, because I really want to see it.
This particular pattern I have met, Like I said, I've
never used, but I stole a technique from it on
a wedding dress that I just made. So I hope
(34:07):
only great success for you, and thank you for sharing
both your project and your pups with us. And I'm
glad that you like our sewing stuff. If you would
like to write to the podcast, you can do that
at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. And if you
haven't subscribed to the show, you can do that EASYPC.
It's easier than sewing. I promise you can do it
on any podcast platform that you listen on or on
(34:29):
the iHeartRadio app. Stuff you missed in History Class is
a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Holly
Frye and I'm Tracy V. Wilson. It's officially Halloween season. Yep. Listen,
It's always Halloween season for me. But I understand that's
(00:22):
not how the rest of the world works. I think
the rest of the world is incorrect. But that's fine.
Here we are. It's October. It is just a heads
up for everybody. I have a couple of witchy things
in this mix this year that aren't really all that
halloweeny in my opinion, because it really becomes a deconstruction
of like social problems, right, the way religion has been
(00:48):
used to torture people. Yeah, that happens with a lot
of the witch episodes, honestly, Yeah, there's no way around it.
And in the second one that we're going to talk
about in an upcoming episode, in particular, we talk a
lot there is a lot of research done into it
from a psychological perspective, so we talk a lot about that.
But today we are talking about Alice Kitler, who was
(01:12):
accused of witchcraft and Kilkenny, Ireland. And although the witchcraft
allegations against her are generally seen as nonsense today and
really born out of this interlocking family arguing in a
personal vendetta that she was pulled into and probably some
jealousy for her success in life. Alice Killer often does
(01:35):
not escape suspicion entirely, even through the modern lens, because
a good many people think she may have been essentially
a black widow, so a serial killer who murdered her
husband's for financial gain. You'll see why and you can
come to your own conclusion. But the real tragedy in
the case of Alice Kitler and the witchcraft trial that
(01:56):
really shocked fourteenth century Ireland, in my opinion, has more
to do with a woman she employed, who paid a
very steep price for her association with Alice, and that's
what we're talking about today. In March of thirteen twenty four,
Richard Ladredd, the Bishop of Ossory in Kilkenny, opened an
inquisition into heresy and ossary, claiming a quote diabolical nest
(02:20):
had been uncovered. At the center of that alleged nest
was a woman named Alice Kittler, So the woman that
a lot of people saw as suspicious. This is an
accusation of witchcraft that predates the more commonly known witch
trials by several hundred years. For example, the Salem witch
(02:42):
trials didn't happen until the end of the seventeenth century,
and Norway's Varda witch trials, which we've covered on the
show before, took place a few decades earlier than the
trials in Salem, but that was still in the seventeenth century.
And one of the things that has to be considered
and remembered in this case is the way that heresy
and witchcraft became conflated as instances of heresy, by which
(03:07):
we mean just the rejection of Christianity and or the
Church's influence in people's lives grew in the twelfth to
the fourteenth centuries, Church officials increasingly characterized anyone criticizing the
Church as clearly evil, and that characterization escalated to include
an assumption of association with demons, and witchcraft was soon
(03:30):
part of that mix. The definition of heresy also expanded
from people who actually were working to counter the Church
to basically anyone who expressed any sort of eccentricity or
seemed odd or lived outside a pretty narrow boundary of
societal morese. Additionally, there's an element of time and place
(03:50):
here that is less about people lumping things together and
more about legal definitions. In his twenty twelve book of
Bewitched Land, Witches and Morlocks of Ireland, doctor Robert Kerin
makes the point that this was before Ireland had any
witchcraft laws on the book, so it fell under the
auspices of ecclesiastical law, in which witchcraft was defined specifically
(04:13):
as heresy rather than as a criminal act. So keep
all of that in mind as Alice's story unfolds. Regarding
the Kittler family in Kilkenny, Missus C. J. Murphy, writing
for the Old Kilkenny Review in nineteen fifty three, stated
quote among the Norman families who had settled in the
city was a family named Kittler. Robert le Kitler was
(04:37):
a trader with Flanders toward the end of the thirteenth century.
There was also a William Kittler, but nothing of note
seems to be known of him. The only member of
this family whose name is remembered through the mists of
six centuries is Dame Alice Kittler, whose famous trial for
witchcraft must have shaken all Ireland and had repercussions as
(04:57):
far away as London and Rome. So Alice was born
circa twelve sixty. That was a little more than ninety
years after Kilkenny was officially founded by Charter. Alice's year
of birth is a little wonky if you look it up.
It's sometimes given as twelve eighty. It makes more sense
if that is actually the year of her first marriage,
(05:19):
which is also often listed as twelve eighty. If you
do the math, that makes sense. Another year that popped
up for her birth was twelve sixty three. So it
seems like somewhere along the line a typo or a
misread happened that has proliferated through a lot of write
ups regarding these events. Because twelve eighty gets listed a lot,
just know that Alice's first husband, probably married in twelve eighty,
(05:42):
was William Outlaw. The couple had a son with the
same name as his father, and her husband, William was
a banker, and he did very well for himself. In
thirteen oh two, her husband, William Outlaw Senior, died and
the details of that death are pretty sketchy, but it
seems as though it was considered to be pretty sudden
(06:03):
Alice may have been accused of murdering him, although it's
unclear if that's the case, and there don't appear to
have been any official legal actions taken, so it might
have been a rumor or an accusation that never manifested
in any kind of actual action. But when William Senior died,
their son William took over his father's banking business, and
(06:24):
the younger William became both very wealthy and very influential.
And this was also in part because the Outlaw family,
which if you look it up is sometimes written as
Utlaw ut Lagh, was very well positioned and influential in Dublin.
In the alleged rumors, she was accused of murdering William
(06:44):
Outlaw with the help of a man named Adam Deblund.
Sometimes we're also referenced as Adam Blunt, who she married
soon after William Outlaw's death. While she was with Adam,
she started to work alongside him and his money lending business.
Alice and Adam's marriage didn't last especially long, although they
(07:06):
may have had children together. There's a lack of clarity
about whether William Outlaw was Alice's only biological child, and
that perhaps other children often listed as hers, were actually
step children that had been born during her husband's prior marriages.
Adam Blund, like William Outlaw Senior, died unexpectedly after a
(07:29):
strange illness. In thirteen oh nine. Alice was married to
a third husband, Richard Deval, and after seven years of marriage,
Alice was widowed for a third time, once again, after
her husband developed a sudden illness. Richard died in thirteen sixteen.
After Deval's death, Alice became embroiled in a financial dispute
(07:52):
with his children over his estate. She fought to get
her dour that's some of money that was normally set
aside as a sort of insurance to be paid out
to a widow if her husband should die. She did
eventually get the money. This made it the third fortune
that she had inherited. Alice had become so incredibly wealthy
(08:12):
that she lent money to King Edward. The second one
of her business ventures was an inn which had been
in the family since she was a child, and that
inn still operates today. Yeah, it's actually a popular tourist attraction.
You can go have a drink at the pub that
was owned by the killers. She married her fourth husband,
John Lapour, in thirteen sixteen, and like her other spouses,
(08:37):
Lapour was a man of means. He owned a lot
of property. Eight years into Alice in John's marriage, John
became seriously ill and he was apparently aware that he
might not recover from this illness and wanted to update
his will. And this update left a lot of his holdings,
some say all of his holdings to Alice and her
(08:59):
oldest son, William, and diminished or eliminated what his own
children would receive. When his children visited Alice in John's
home to check in on their father, they were very
distraught at what they saw. He was incredibly gaunt. He
looked as though he had been wasting away for some
time and maybe had not been administered any help. They
(09:22):
got very suspicious, particularly when they realized that their father
had been in the process of amending his will to
leave everything to Alice and William. And at that point
they contacted Bishop Richard Ladredd regarding their suspicions that foul
play was involved and that Alice was the perpetrator. And
coming up, we're going to talk about Richard Ladredd, but
(09:43):
first we will pause for a sponsor break. The year
after Alice had married John Lapour, a new bishop had
moved to the Osary diocese in Kilkenny. That was the
aforementioned Richard the Dread and soon Ladred actually had conflict
(10:08):
with another member of the Lapour family. That was Arnold Lapour,
who was Seneschal of kil Kenny, Wexford and Carlow. The
Lapour family had been in Ireland for at least one
hundred and fifty years. At this point they had become
quite powerful, So a seneschal in this instance is a
government official appointed by the King of England to serve
(10:28):
as an administrator and sort of like substitute ruler in
an area. Because bishops also held a place of political
power and often were in charge of legal matters, this
meant that if a seneschal and a bishop in an
area did not agree, it could cause a lot of strife,
and it definitely did in this instance. One reason there
(10:50):
was this level of tension and overlap was in part
because kil Kenny had grown up around a monastery to
become an important hub for both trade and governance, so
both the church and the secular government felt that they
should have primary say over the way the town was run.
Another issue was that from thirteen oh seven to early
(11:10):
thirteen twenty seven, King Edward the second was the ruler
of England. England had claimed lordship over Ireland, but Edward
the Second was miirred in so many conflicts, both at
home and abroad, that he was ineffectual in a lot
of ways, and a lot of Ireland was just kind
of indifferent to rebellious when it came to anyone from England,
whether from government or the church. So Ledredd right out
(11:33):
of the gate was just viewed as an interloper. Richard
Ledredd was born circa twelve eighty somewhere in England, though
specifics are unknown. His early life in general is not
very well documented. We know he became a Franciscan friar
at some point, and that he eventually made his way
to Avignon when the papal court was there during the
(11:53):
papacy of John the twenty second. There have been some
interpretations of his ride where he describes himself as quote
brought up, educated and promoted under the wings of the
Holy Apostolic see as meaning that he literally grew up
at the papal court. But we don't know that for certain.
(12:15):
It's also been theorized that when la Dread was sent
to the Osary Diocese in thirteen seventeen, that he might
have been tasked with seeking out witchcraft, as that was
something that John the twenty second was concerned about. John
the twenty second was the pope who would write the
doctrine that made witchcraft a form of heresy in the
eyes of the church. Pope John the twenty second was worried,
(12:38):
or at least claimed to be worried about people attacking
him with magic. He had Bishop Hughes Jureau arrested and
charged with attempted murder through sorcery, and other members of
the papal court had similar accusations made against them. We
couch that to say he may have been concerned about it,
(12:58):
because there is plenty of information that suggests this was
a little bit more calculated than actual fear. Some of
these accusations were very likely calculated moves to discredit enemies.
So though the Pope might have genuinely worried about things
like witchcraft and demons, he was also really skilled at
(13:19):
deploying such accusations with very little real concern. Regarding demons,
Kilkenny does seem to have been perceived by the Church
as a potential hotbed for sorcery or some sort of
cultish behavior involving the devil at this time. And this
could have been as simple as it having become an
area of prosperity that was not especially beholden to the Church.
(13:41):
And it seems that Ledread may have certainly learned from
John to twenty seconds example when it came to exploiting
these concerns, real or not, for his own benefit. When
he started his work in Osrey, his first move was
to assemble all the clergy of the area for a
formal meeting, and during that meeting the real lax church
leadership of Kilkenny was informed of all the ways that
(14:04):
it would be tightening up and enforcing new rules, and
that included keeping an eye out for heretics. Meanwhile, Ladread
and Arnold Dupour were at odds just about from the
moment Ladrede arrived. According to an article from the Old
Kilkenny Review that is archived by the kil Kenny Archaeological Society,
(14:24):
Lapour referred to Ladread as quote that vile, rustic peasant
from England. In an argument, Ladred told Lapour that he
did not fear him, and Lapour replied with quote, well, well,
you will meet obstacles wherever you go, indicating that nobody
in the area was going to be especially cooperative. So,
(14:46):
in this atmosphere of conflict, and specifically conflict with the Seneschal,
the Bishop Ledread was very eager to hear the story
that the Lapour family had to tell him about John
Lapour's condition. They described their father's truly troubling state of illness,
which they suspected might be poisoning or even the result
(15:07):
of some sort of bewitching, and they also hinted it
how suspicious it was that Alice's previous three husbands had
also fallen ill. Suddenly, Ladredd charged Alice, her son William Outlaw,
and ten other people that Alice was associated with three
men and seven women with heresy. The specifics of these
(15:28):
charges sound pretty bananas. Soon Alice had been accused of
things like sacrificing animals, of using magic on her husband's
to cause their demises, and of mixing potions in the
skull of a robber. Even the ingredients she was suspected
of using in her skull concoctions were listed, and they
were things like clothes from unbaptized children, hair from buttocks,
(15:52):
yes you heard that correctly, men's fingernails, and even worms.
And with these elixirs, Alice and her associate were accused
of manipulating people's behaviors. The seven accusations leveled at Alice
were one denying the power of Christ and the church.
Two sacrificing animals to a demon named Robert, who she
(16:14):
also had a sexual relationship with. Three asking demons to
advise her in witchcraft. Four having that sexual relationship with
the demon Robert sometimes also called Robin Artisan. This accusation
even describes the shape shifting of the demon, indicating that
it sometimes appeared as an animal and at other times
as an Ethiopian man. Five having covent meetings in the church.
(16:40):
Six making powders and ointments or potions from ingredients, including
those who mentioned a moment ago. The subtext on this
one indicated that it was these potions used in the
seventh accusation, which was seven bewitching her husbands and killing
them for their money. There have been scholarly papers written
(17:00):
that suggests that it was actually Richard Ledredd who introduced
these ideas of demonic interactions into Ireland, as similar stories
had existed in France prior to his assignment at Ossary,
but don't really appear to be part of any Irish
records before he was there. Witchcraft and occult practice had
been known of in the years before Ladread, throughout Europe,
(17:23):
of course, and in Ireland, but it wasn't considered a crime,
either civilly or ecclesiastically. It was only perceived as evil
if it was used to harm, and any charges regarding
it had to do a specific instances in which someone
had wronged someone else, So you could be charged with
using witchcraft to cause someone trouble, like spoiling their crop,
(17:44):
but you'd only be facing the consequences for the damage
to the crop, not for being involved in the occult
or witchcraft. But the time of Ladread in Ireland and
Alice's case are in the early phase of that changing
in Europe as the concept begun, and to include this
idea that in order to achieve some level of proficiency
(18:05):
or power in witchcraft, a person just had to have
made a pact with the devil. There are, of course,
theories that all of the wild accusations thrown at Alice
Kitler were actually catalyzed by Ladred's vendetta against her husband's relative,
Arnold Lapour, because Arnold and Alice were good friends, and
(18:25):
Ladred was frustrated he had been assigned to Ossory but
didn't know anybody or have any friends there, and the
locals were not interested in his authority. Kilkenny was too
remote in terms of the English King to have a
higher up step in to settle these kinds of disputes,
so Ladred didn't have a lot of tools at his
disposal when it came to this ongoing beef with Arnold Lapour,
(18:48):
but he could do what Pope John the twenty second
had done to his enemies, which was take legal action
against people in Arnold Lapour's circle. In the case gets
convoluted almost instantly. When Ledred became concerned that he could
not manage the situation and kill Kenny, he wrote to
the Chancellor of the King in Dublin. This was the
(19:11):
normal order of operations for escalating a situation, but the
chancellor for the King was a man named Father Roger Outlaw,
a relative of Alice's first husband and a cousin of
her son William, and at this point, William, who had
become quite influential, reached out to his cousin Roger and
discussed the matter, and soon both father Roger Outlaw and
(19:33):
Arnold Lapour had written to Richard Ledredd telling him that
he really should just drop the matter. Bishop Ledread was
unwilling to just let it go, though, and he was
insistent that this was an issue of faith that should
not be ignored. He told the Chancellor Roger Outlaw as much,
and the Chancellor's reply, which was intended it would seem
(19:55):
to put an obstacle in Richard's path, said that a
person could not be detained by the church unless they
had been excommunicated for a period of forty days. But
to Ladread, this was not an obstacle exactly. It was
more like a fresh project. He was adamant that heretics
didn't fall under that rule because they were flight risks.
(20:17):
He issued a citation to Alice which came with a
court date, and she promptly did exactly what Ladredd said
that she would, which is that she fled Kilkenny. Her
court date, though went ahead is planned. The Chancellor actually
sent a defense team to handle Alice's case, saying that
she was not required to personally appear to answer a
(20:39):
charge of heresy, so to be clear. The person Ledred
had turned to for help in this matter instead sided
with the accused and used the power of his office
to provide her with legal assistance. But Ladred still went
ahead with the case and he declared Alice excommunicated. The
period of her excommunication was set to more than forty days,
(21:02):
and then he charged her formally with heresy. But since
Arnold Lapour had a significant amount of power in kill Kenny,
he was able to stifle the trial by having Ladread arrested.
He did not want to give witchcraft accusations any oxygen
and he was hoping to just shut the whole thing down.
Bishop Ladread was taken to the prison at Kilkenny Castle
(21:25):
and he was in custody for seventeen days before he
was released. During that time, Arnold Lapour and William Outlaw
offered an open forum for anyone in Kilkenny who had
issues with Ladredd to state those with the assurance that
their complaints would be heard and also pursued. The pair
were surely hoping that enough people would bring them complaints
(21:48):
that they could make a case that la Dread should
be recalled by the Pope, but nobody else filed any complaints.
Realizing that no one was going to come forward, Lapour
had the Bishop released. When he got out, the Bishop
was not especially interested in letting things go. He went
right back to his accusations and even decided he could
(22:09):
issue a judgment against Alice and her associates and his
opinion the matter was settled and she was guilty. Ladred
issued another summons for both Alice Kitler and William Outlaw
to appear before him in ecclesiastical court on these charges,
but Alice's friends and relations once again intervened. King's Chancellor,
(22:29):
Roger Outlaw summoned Bishop Ledread to appear in Dublin in court,
and the date for his hearing just happened to be
the exact same date that Ladred had called Alice and
William to come in to see him. Ladred actually thought
initially that all of this might work out in his favor.
He was at last going to get to lay out
his case against Alice before a higher authority, which is
(22:51):
something he had wanted all along. Arnold Lapour is said
to have waited along the road for Ladred to pass
so he could once again arrest him. But Ladred learned
of this plan and avoided it. But when Richard Ladredd
arrived in Dublin, he found that another trap of sorts
had been laid. Alice Kitler was there and she had
(23:12):
prepared a defamation case against the bishop for accusing her
of heresy and sentencing her to excommunication without a fair trial.
Alice had a lot of money and so she had
a lot of resources, and she had appealed the bishop's
ruling and it went to the parliament in Dublin. Had
she been making this appeal a couple hundred years later,
(23:33):
she might have been in trouble with higher officials. But
her case was before the fevered witch hunts of Europe
and other parts of the world really got into swings.
So a lot of officials came away from these proceedings
thinking that maybe Ladred was not really in touch with reality. Yeah,
they were, like, these charges seem Cokammie to us worked
(23:55):
in Alice's favor, that she is on the early side
of things. Bread had been trying the entire time he
had Alice in his sights to get the authorities in
Dublin to issue a warrant for her arrest so that
he could legally detain her. And now all of the
people he had been trying to get help from were
allied with Alice against him. Now in the King's Court
(24:18):
and as part of the proceedings, Arnold Lapour addressed the
court saying, quote, you know that in Ireland there never
was found heretics, for it is wont to be called
the island of saints. But now a stranger from England
comes and says, we are all heretics and excommunicated, alleging
for this certain papal constitutions which we never heard of.
And since the Infamia of that land touches the person
(24:40):
of us all, it becomes you all to take a
part against him. And Ladred's early rulings were dismissed and
he was sent back to his diocese. But once he
got back to Kokenny, he continued to pursue his case
against Alice. He was so obsessed and so dogged trying
to convince higher ups in the church and in the
(25:02):
government that he was on to something that he eventually
managed to convince a handful of those people to come
to kil Kenny for a court session. He had called
for distance reference. Kill Kenny is about one hundred and
twenty eight kilometers or eighty miles southwest of Dublin. In
a car today, that would take maybe ninety minutes, but
(25:23):
in thirteen twenty four it was a much more time
consuming journey to convince somebody to make They really must
have been hoping they could just show up and put
the matter to rest once and for all, so that
they could get some peace from Richard Ladredd. This hearing
took place in Saint Mary's Church, and the people in
attendance included Chancellor Roger Outlaw, as well as other officials
(25:45):
from Dublin. In this time, Ladredd formally accused William Outlaw
of harboring heretics. In a somewhat odd detail, William appeared
at this hearing in a full suit of armor. And
there is a plot twist coming, So we're actually gonna
pause right here for a sponsor break. During the hearing
(26:15):
on July second, thirteen twenty four, and Kill Kenny, in
which Richard Ledrette accused William Outlaw the Younger of heresy,
things got very heated. The accusers and William's defenders argued
back and forth until Suddenly, all of that bickering was
ended when William confessed to harboring heretics. Part of the
(26:37):
preparations for this event was the questioning of a woman
named Petronilla of Meath, who worked for Alice. Petronella was
one of the people accused of being part of Alice's
nefarious group of witches, and Petronilla was questioned while being whipped.
This is often described as being questioned under torture, and
(26:58):
while whipping would certainly be torturous, just for clarity, this
was not the same kind of torture that would later
be used to question suspected witches. At the time, England
had a law in place against using torture to gain confessions.
Whipping was allowed because Petronilla was a servant and servants
(27:19):
could be whipped according to the law. The whipping was
certainly enough. Petronilla told authorities that she watched Alice practice
witchcraft and had participated and acted as a go between
for Alice and her demon lover. Her recorded testimony was
brought into the court proceedings against William. In fact, her
(27:39):
whole case was based on Petronilla's torture induced confession. Although
William had confessed he was imprisoned only briefly. His negotiated sentencing,
which was issued by Ladred, was surprisingly not all that harsh.
To make penance, he had to agree to attend Mass
three times a day for a year. He also had
(28:02):
to feed the poor and kill Kenny, and he needed
to pay for some needed upkeep to the cathedral and chapel,
specifically the laying of a new lead roof. And William
agreed to the sentence, but he didn't actually follow through
and do those things, and that made Richard Ladredd I rate.
(28:23):
William's disregard for his penance put ladredde in the position
of weakness. He had worked so hard to get to
a point where he had successfully prosecuted at least one
person from the heretic nest he believed was operating and
kill Kenny, only to have his judgment ignored. He wanted
(28:43):
to punish Alice Kitler once and for all, but the
problem was he couldn't find her. He could, however, find
her servant, Petronella, and she would have to serve as
an example. On November three, thirteen twenty four, Petronella became
the first person in Ireland to be burned at the
stake for witchcraft. William, though was once again able to
(29:05):
avoid any harsh punishment, undoubtedly due to his status as
a wealthy and powerful man, he did have to finally
pay for that church roof. As for the other people
that La Dread sentenced alongside Alice, because others in their
group were convicted, there isn't much information regarding their lives
after the trial, and there are actually, undoubtedly because this
(29:29):
is from seven hundred years ago, a lot of really
unsatisfying loose ends in this story. So when did Alice's
fourth husband, John Lapour die? We don't know what happened
to his kids who started all of this with their
accusations unclear? And the big question where did Alice Killer
end up? Because she vanishes and it is generally believed
(29:52):
that she used her vast wealth and connections to escape
to England and she probably lived out the rest of
her life there. She did take Petronella's daughter Basilia, who
had also been accused with her kill. Kenny seemed to
be stuck with Ladredd, though he remained the bishop there
until his death in thirteen sixty. He published his account
(30:13):
of the trial in Latin several years after it was concluded.
In his time in Ireland he was embroiled in witchcraft
and heresy, accusations, claims that people were plotting to kill him,
and complaints sent by various officials, including King Edward the
Third to the Pope asking him to please recall Ladread.
(30:34):
By the time he died, he had a reputation for
terrorizing his parishioners with baseless accusations. Yeah, he was not
satisfied with any of this and really just kept going
to the point that people were like, somebody, come and
get your boy, Ladredd, because more problems than helping any
(30:55):
of us. Uh. In twenty twenty four, Kill Kenny commemorated
the trial and the death of Petronilla with a full
program of events including lectures. They did tours, they had
a reenactment of the trial, and they had a civic
service of atonement and forgiveness in Saint Kanis's Cathedral. Dad
(31:17):
is the story of the first witch burned in Ireland. Yeah,
I have many thoughts that we could talk about on Friday,
and in the meantime I also had a fun email
about sewing. This is from our listener Kelly, who writes
(31:37):
Allow Holly and Tracy. I'm behind, but I've just listened
to your podcast on paper sewing patterns. I wish I
had heard it early, as there was a convention on
sewing patterns in Charlotte, North Carolina in July or August
of this year that I could have told y'all about.
Check out patterncon dot com for more information. She mentions
that it is supposed to be in Atlanta in twenty
twenty six, so I will be on the lookout for
(31:59):
that because that would be fun. It's a brand new convention,
so that's why I had never heard of it. Kelly writes,
Below are my two rescue dogs, Abby, the gray mastive mix,
and Hefner, the tan Staffordshire Terrier mix. Hefner passed away
in January, and we believe Abby is thirteen or even fourteen.
We've had her since twenty thirteen. Also attached is a
(32:19):
dress sewing pattern that I will attempt to make for
my daughter's wedding and the material I will be making
it out of, which is sharmus. Take care, and at
least I will be happy to hear more about home
sewing history any aspect will be interesting to me. Kelly. Okay,
First of all these dogs, those are kissable faces. They're
good ones. Second, the pattern that she shared with us
(32:41):
is when I was very familiar with already. It's a
pattern by charm Patterns, which is a pattern company run
by a woman who goes by Gerty who does like
retro style patterns with some you know, modern cuts and techniques,
and they're amazing. I love them. If you are a
(33:03):
pattern person and you're dismayed at how commercial patterns are
playing out right now, this is a great option. I
have no reason to tout this other than I love
charm Patterns and I follow her Patreon and you get
a free pattern every month with it, and I love it.
I don't make them all, but I love them all.
I cannot wear this particular dress. It is like a
halter thing of the very open back, and I just
(33:24):
am not built for that. But I love it. And
I also want to applaud your bravado in making this
out of Charmus, because Charmus is a pain and that
took us to work with in my opinion, but it
gives me a lovely memory of watching Project Runway this
season that Nick Verios was on and him being in
mood Fabrics and the way he pronounced charmus when speaking
(33:45):
Spanish was chamuz and I will never forget it and
I love it forever. So Kelly, I hope your dress
turns out beautiful, and I also hope you send me
a picture of it, because I really want to see it.
This particular pattern I have met, Like I said, I've
never used, but I stole a technique from it on
a wedding dress that I just made. So I hope
(34:07):
only great success for you, and thank you for sharing
both your project and your pups with us. And I'm
glad that you like our sewing stuff. If you would
like to write to the podcast, you can do that
at History Podcast at iHeartRadio dot com. And if you
haven't subscribed to the show, you can do that EASYPC.
It's easier than sewing. I promise you can do it
on any podcast platform that you listen on or on
(34:29):
the iHeartRadio app. Stuff you missed in History Class is
a production of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit
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Tracy Wilson
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