Author Interview: Jason Surrell and The Haunted Mansion

To celebrate the Halloween season with a little Disney flair, Holly chatted with the author of "The Haunted Mansion: Imagineering a Disney Classic" about the beloved theme park attraction and balancing history and innovation.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from how
Stuff Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast.
I'm Holly Fry and I'm Tracy Vie Wilson, and it's
Halloween time. Uh. Two years ago in October, we did
a two parter on the history of Disney's Haunted Mansion

(00:23):
around Halloween and those are two of our most popular
episodes of all time. And then I have to make
a little true confession, which is the earlier this year
for my birthday, as a present to myself, I was
thinking that I would do another Disney related episode because
we do also get request for those, and that seems
like a good thing. Uh. So my birthday was actually
back in May, and I obviously never forgot around doing that. Uh.

(00:46):
And then at the end of this summer, the third
edition of Disney's Haunted Mansion book came out, and so
my brain just kind of went, you need to do
something about this. So I asked writer Jason Serell to
come and chat with us about the book. So it
made this perfect late birthday slash early Halloween present for me.
So he is now the creative director for Universal Creative,

(01:07):
but for fifteen years Jason was part of the Disney
Imagineering team, So that's right, we're talking to an actual,
real life imagineer. Today, he's worked as a senior show
writer and a show director as well, so you can
see why he is the perfect person to write a
book about a Disney attraction and why I, in particular,
would be super excited to talk with him. First, we

(01:28):
will hear about Jason start at Disney, how his career
developed and eventually landed him in imagineering, and how he
ended up writing a book about the Haunted Mansion. What's
really fun for me, and I think for any of
the hardcore Disney fans in the audience is that as
he's talking about sort of getting some of this stuff
up and running and whose mentors were, he's gonna be

(01:48):
name dropping people that you will find familiar first if
you listen to our two parter and if you're a
hardcore Disney fans. So it's very very cool to kind
of hear that those people are still mentoring other image
and years. Yes, it's also a totally different take from
what we talked about a couple of years ago. Yeah,
we're not really rehashing any of the history. We will
touch back on some of the things that happened along

(02:09):
the way that we talked about in that but it's
from definitely a different point of view. So this isn't
gonna be a rerun material. It is all new and exciting,
so let's hop rate it. So I am. I feel
insanely lucky today because I have Jason Surrell with me
to chat about, among other things, his new edition of

(02:32):
his book about the Haunted Mansion called The Haunted Mansion
Imagineering a Disney Classic. But first we're gonna talk a
little bit about have your time at Disney. So you
worked with Disney for a long time, though not in
a continuous stretch, because, if I am not mistaken, you
first worked as a Jungle cruise skipper in the college
program in the eighties. Am I right? Yes? And thank

(02:53):
you for using the word eighties that days of both
video now. Yeah, actually, I was on college program in
the summer of nineteen nine. Let's just get it out there, Uh,
the first Bush administration. Um, yeah, that's when I started.
And you know, to this day, it's it's something I'm
incredibly proud of because, as you might imagine, being a

(03:15):
Jungle cruise skipper is one of not only one of
the great Disney theme park jobs, but if you wind
up spending any time there as a career, it's a
great first job. You know, it was John Lasker's first job.
You know, there's this kind of lineage and it just
that it makes you feel good to be part of
that that history. I was going to mention that that

(03:35):
is apparently like the magical stepping stone, since Leicester also
did it. I have a friend that did it in
the college program recently. He is the son of one
of my friends. And I'm waiting for the great things
to happen next. Uh. Yeah, it's no, it's it's it's unbelievable,
and you know, it's still as a as a nineteen
year old kid. I think back on it, and well,
not a nineteen year old kids now, obviously, but when

(03:56):
I think back on you being nineteen years old spending
your summer in Walt Disney World. Uh, and then that
was the summer that Pleasure Island, Disney MGM Studios, and
Typhoon Lagoon all opened. It was just an amazing time
to be on the property and to have that job,
you know, to boot was just unbelievable, you know, because
I had we'd all, in addition to growing up with

(04:16):
the attraction, we'd all seen that iconic imagery from the
Sunday Night Show, and all of a sudden, I was like, there,
I was nineteen years old, you know, pulling out the
gun to fire at the hippo and still pull out
the fire at the hippo. Uh, and just all of
those iconic images, you know, pulling out of the temple
into the sacred bathing pool of the idea. It was
just a dream come true. I love that ride. Uh.

(04:37):
And later on you ended up working in imagineering, which
to most people sounds like an amazing dream situation as
both a senior show writer and a show director. So
can you talk about kind of how you ended up
there and what sorts of things you did. Yeah. Absolutely.
I actually began my career in live entertainment writing and directing,
which is the natural stepping stone in to creative direction

(05:01):
and a lot of the other things that I wound
up doing. I also found that it was a great
transition into imagineering, specifically because growing up like a lot
of Disney fans, that was always my dream job. But
for the For the longest time, I never thought I
could do it because I wasn't an artist and architect
or an engineer. And as I started doing creative work

(05:22):
on the entertainment side of the house, writing and directing,
I found that those skills were every bit as transferable
and every bit as ballad as being an artist an
architect for an engineer. So uh, that was pretty much
what allowed me to to break in. So I broke
in as a as a writer, and uh, you know,
I spent fifteen years there writing, producing, creative directing. Uh,

(05:46):
and it was an absolute dream come true the entire
time I was there. Now, when it comes to something
like the Haunted Mansion book, did you get tapped to
write that or was that something you had to pitch? Now,
that's kind of an interesting story. You know. It was
the summer of two thousand two. We knew that Pirates
of the Caribbean and the Haunted Mansion films were coming
in the following year, and it was really one of

(06:08):
those classic situations. You know. I grew up, like a
lot of us, just craving the next Disney book, you know,
whether it was the Bob Thomas autobiography or the Art
of Walt Disney by Christopher Finch, you know, but there
weren't as many titles as certainly as there are now.
So I stopped. I was literally walking down the hall
and I poked my head into our vice president's office

(06:28):
and I just said, how would we go about pitching
a book? And he just kind of shrugged. He's like,
I don't know, asked Marty. Marty of course being Marty
splar So, uh. I emailed Marty slar Um, you know
who obviously, being a former writer himself, was kind of
a mentor to a lot of us anyway, you know,
so I had a relationship and I just emailed Marty
and said, um, I would really love to write a

(06:51):
book about the Haunted Mansion, primarily because I'd really love
to read a book about the Haunted Mansion. So it
was a classic situation of writing it because you wanted
to have it, you wanted it on your shelf, and
no one else was doing it. So Marty wrote back
immediately and said, write up a book proposal. This is
a great idea, and I said, great, how do I

(07:12):
do that. I've never written a book proposal before, so
essentially approached it like a treatment that we would create
for an attraction, you know, just taking the the audience
through its step by step. I broke it up into chapters.
And the other thing I should point out about the
movie being on the horizon was in my mind that
was the hook that would allow it to happen, because

(07:33):
at the time I wasn't sure if the company would
go for a book about the making of an attraction alone.
But obviously we know how popular movies hie in merchandise.
This so I purposely piggybacked on the upcoming film. So
half or three quarters of the book would be about
the making of the attraction in all of its incarnations
around the world, and then the remaining half or quarter

(07:54):
would be about the making of the film, and then
you could bring it out with the film. Uh So, anyway,
I wound up writing up a full proposal that went
into the entire history of the attraction all over the world.
And then I always wanted that middle section, the scene
by scene, where I through really get into the nitty
gritty of each scene, you know, describing narratively what happens,

(08:16):
and then going into the making of material. And then
the last section, of course, would be about the making
of the film. So I sent that off to Marty.
He wrote back. Had a couple of weeks, I made
some revisions, and then finally I get an email saying,
this is great. I love it. Now write a letter,
a proposal letter to our publishing folks in New York.
So again I'm like, great, how do I do that.

(08:37):
I've never done that either. So just like I treated
the proposal like uh treatment or something we do for
an attraction, I treated the proposal letter like a pitch.
So instead of the verbal, in person pitch that I
would do for an attraction or a show, I put
that all into a letter to Wendy left On at
Disney Editions, and I got a response almost immediately. They said,

(09:00):
this is a great idea. We love it. We're going
to take it to our sales and acquisitions meeting on
Wednesday and we'll let you know. So I'm like, oh
my gosh, you know, because this was such a whirlwind thing.
So then by the end of the day Wednesday, I
get a call from Jody Rebinson, who would become my
editor on the book, and said, I have good news
and bad news, And you know that's always that always

(09:21):
sends up red flags, and she's like, the good news is,
we love this idea and we're going to do the book.
The bad news is, in order to bring it out
with the film, we need the manuscript by January. And
this was October exactly. Um what the good news is Now,
I know how else spend my Christmas vacation. Um, So

(09:43):
it was it was great news, but it was a whirlwind.
And then, as you can imagine, I dove into the
intense research and interviews immediately, and then January turned out
to be a little bit of a misnomer because January
was actually when the film was going into principal photography.
So I did wind up with a little extra time
because I got to fly out to California, spend a

(10:04):
lot of time on the set, you know, do all
my interviews with cast and crew and all that sort
of thing. And then we did wind up, you know,
putting the attraction portion in the film portion together and
then revising, rewriting and editing, and then I think by
early spring we had locked the manuscript and then you know,
we uh got to go through the process of selecting
all the wonderful artwork and photography, which for any Disney

(10:28):
fan inside or outside the company was a dream come true,
you know, having free reign in the Walt Walt Disney
Imagineering Art Library. And that's pretty much how the book
came together. That's so fabulous. And I know at that point,
of course, you're already very steeped in disney culture and
you had a lot of knowledge and clearly had a
love for it. Uh. But where's and you mentioned doing interviews,

(10:50):
But where did your research on the history of it
really start? Like how much did you already just have
in your head versus how much did you have to
go through the archives and look up. Well, I had
a good deal of history already in my head. And then,
to be honest with you, I think one of the
uh previously written books, which is a wonderful book if
you can get your hands on it, is Disneyland the

(11:12):
Nickel Tour by UH Bruce Gordon and David Mumford. Absolute
UH to me, it's one of the bibles on Disneyland.
It's not only filled with amazing art and photography and postcards,
but they really have one of the definitive histories of Disneyland.
And as I started reading through their Haunted Mansion section,
that was when I started to realize, oh, there's a
lot more to this story than I'm aware of, and

(11:34):
I thought I knew a decent amount about it. So
in addition to the interviews, I went into the Walt
Disney archives at the studios and go through all sorts
of folders, unearthing memos, you know, from from Dick Irvine
and Ken Anderson, memos from Walt Disney to members of
his staff. Uh. And that was when the real in

(11:57):
depth story started to emerge, and I I became aware
of the fact that the Haunted Mansion as a concept
actually predates the founding of Walt Disney imagineering. You know.
It's there's that old dark house on the hill, the
kind of Adam's family mansion in one of Harpard Gooff's
first pencil sketches for the earliest earliest concepts of Disneyland.

(12:19):
So it's a very old concept. And that really turned
me onto all of the things that I felt that
I needed to investigate. And I was actually a pretty
good word because it started to feel a little bit
like investigative reporting. You're reading these memos, you're reading I
read all of Ken Anderson's early treatments from the late
nineteen fifties, and then you would do your in it.

(12:40):
Sometimes the interview subjects would contradict each other, and you
had to try to you know, because decades have passed
and everyone has their own recollection of events, you know,
so I would have to compare the memories against one
of one another and then try to figure out what
the actual story was. And that was really one of
the most fun parts about it. He seeing together, you know,
the story like there's and they're like Angela Landsberger or something.

(13:03):
One of the things why I went with Angela lands Right,
I could have chosen a mail detective, but that's fine.
You know, the heart wants what it wants and nobody's
going to judge exact I'm living my one of the
things the first time I read the first edition of
the book, which um uh is kind of hilarious, and
that my husband bought it for me while we were
on vacation in Disney World, and I sat down on

(13:26):
the bed and just was kind of gone for hours,
where He's like, we have to get up and do
a race in the morning. You have to go to sleep,
I mean, but I was so uh taken by the
story of the creative differences that really emerged after Walt
passed away. It just surprised me because I think, you know,
as a consumer of Disney things, in a Disney fan,

(13:47):
even when you know a lot, you kind of imagine
it as this magical wonderland where everybody gets along and
creativity just flows and it's all good. But in fact, no, Um,
I mean, I'm a creative person. My husband is created.
We certain bicker over projects we do together. So I
don't know why I would think that magically other people
would not. Uh did that surprise you? Or were there

(14:08):
any other elements of the research that popped out the
way you went? WHOA? I did not know that happened.
The debate didn't surprise me because there was an episode
of Disney Family Album, an old Disney Channel TV series
which was wonderful that uh I grew up with U,
and one of the episodes that focused there were two episodes,
one focused on the imagineers, one focused on what they

(14:30):
called the Disneyland designers. And between those two episodes, I
can't remember, but uh, they told the story about the
great funny versus scary debate. You know, Mark Davis led
the camp that felt the attraction should be funnier because
he thought, well, it's the Haunted Mansion. You know, kids
in particular are already going to have a little trepidation
going in, so we don't want to tip the scales

(14:51):
and horrify them. And then on the other side you
had plot Coats saying same thing, Well, it's called the
Haunted Mansion. That brings with it a certain expectation, so
we have to pay off on the scary part of it.
And when Walt was alive, he was there to govern and,
as we all can imagine, quickly settle those debates. UM.
But I also think that that Walt, to some extent

(15:14):
would use that tension to try to arrive at the
best idea. And I think that is something that happened
even though he passed away in the middle of development
of the Haunted Mansion. UM. And then you asked about
other revelations. I think the single biggest revelation for me
was that Walt Disney was a lot more aware of
the Haunted Mansion in individual scenes, individual gags than we

(15:38):
ever thought before. And I think that's because Pirates of
the Caribbean has for so long been billed as a
quote last Attraction personally supervised by Walt Disney, and I
actually think that's a little bit of a misnomer because
there is a lot of Walt Disney in the Haunted Mansion,
which came along two years after Pirates, So that actually
made me feel a lot closer to the action knowing

(16:00):
how much of Walt was it. It just made something
that I already loved even more the loves And then
the other surprise would would be that Ken Anderson for me,
turned out to be the unsung hero of the Haunted Mansion,
because we all for years have heard about Mark Davis,
Claude Coats, ex Detensio, Blaine Gibson, but Ken Anderson did

(16:25):
so much too determine the outcome of the Final Attraction
would be with some of his treatments and sketches and
concepts that you know, date back to seven or so.
So those were the two biggest things, the fact that
there's a lot of Walt Disney and the Haunted Mansion,
and that we owe a lot of what we love
about the Haunted Mansion to Ken Anderson. Don't you wish

(16:45):
sometimes that you could see some of those alternate treatments
like as a fully realized ride. Yeah, absolutely, specifically, you
know the one version that famously had the headless horseman
galloping through a graveyard through the wind, you know, up
towards the house. The legend of Sleepy Hollow from these
centers of pick About Mr. Toad is one of my

(17:05):
all time favorite Disney things in any medium. So to
see even a sliver of that realized in a park
absolutely within a dream come true. And they're all sorts
of other things, even some of the spookier stuff, like,
you know, because I'm a Halloween guy, horror film guy,
you know, worked on Halloween horror nights for five years,
so that's definitely my world. So I would I would

(17:27):
actually say, love to see a theme park attraction, regardless
of the company that does it, truly set their sights
on horrifying people. Yeah, that's kind of my dream one day.
I don't know where I would do it or what
the circumstances would be, but to create an old dark
house on a hill that is truly terrifying, I love it.
One day we will go to the Jason Sorrel Park

(17:47):
and we will all have our pants scared off just
in case you did not know his reference to shooting
the hippo on the Juggle Cruise. Uh. The skippers on
the boats that take the guests through the Jungle Cruise
attraction used to shoot at this animatronic hippo that emerges
from the water as part of the the storyline of

(18:10):
the the attraction with this prop gun. But there was
a decision made at one point that the cast members
would no longer carry those props. Uh. And allegedly I
have read online that those prop guns have returned, but
the hippo shooting still does not take place, So I
haven't written that one recently to verify, but next time
I'm there, which will be next month, I will check.

(18:33):
There are also some great insights there about the process
of getting a book off the ground. Um, even if
you're working from within a company like Disney, there's still
so many hoops to jump through and so many steps
which the answer the question why are you and I
just don't spontaneously write a book about our show. Yeah.
And I'm also really glad that Jason brought up just

(18:54):
how much Walt really was involved in the mansion, since
it does sometimes get framed as though he really didn't
get very far on that project, but he really was very,
very involved. So if you want to take a second
to pause for a word from one of our sponsors
before we go on, I would love to. Next up,
we are going to talk about why this book has

(19:16):
needed two different updates and pretty rapid succession. And one
of the great things that comes up right away in
this segment is the source for the inspiration of the
exterior of the mansion. And if you recall from listening
to our two part around the Haunted Mansion a couple
of years ago, I got a detail wrong in our
original podcast about what that inspiration was because I was

(19:38):
using the first edition, And now you are going to
know why that was wrong and needed an update. So
let's jump right back into talking with Jason. You've just
released the third edition of this book because there have
been a lot of enhancements and developments related to the
Haunted Mansion in the recent past that in this sitated

(20:00):
some updates. Can you talk a little bit about the
updates that made those two subsequent editions have to happen
since the first came out. Yeah. Absolutely, And I think
you can trace it to the fact that the Disney
theme parks, as as Walts said of Disneyland, are always
in a state of becoming. You know, they're always changing,
They're always getting plused, you know, to use an imagineering term.

(20:21):
So almost immediately upon putting the book out, there were
things that were instantly outdated. Yeah. I think it was
literally within weeks of publication. Uh. But one of the
imagineers in the Glendale office stumbled upon this catalog, this
book of Victorian Architecture and Ornamentation, and and and in
that book, one of the imagineers found a picture of

(20:43):
the mansion in Baltimore that Ken Anderson used as a reference.
And it's the spitting image of the Disneyland haunt admagion.
I think it's called the shipley Lie Decker House. I
don't have it in front of me. Uh, you know,
as you get older. Um So, anyway, they tracked down
this photo. I'm like, you have got to be kidding me.
I just put out a book that talked about how

(21:03):
it was influenced by Evergreen House and you know, some
of these other locations. And as it turned out that
that wasn't untrue because Ken was influenced by a lot
of the Southern plantation houses, but it was clear that
this was the house. And then I was reminded as
soon as I saw it. I mean my interview with
Marty's fla where he kind of looked at me slyly
and said, well, you know, Ken just copied that house,

(21:27):
and H I kind of innocently going, I've seen pictures
of Evergreen House and there there's some similarities and and
there's some similarities to other mansions I've seen that I
wouldn't say he copied it. And then when I saw
this picture of the Shipley Live Decker House and like, yeah, so, um,
you know, things like that. Uh, there were things that

(21:47):
that I was regrettably not able to include in the
in the first edition. And uh, I also because of
the quick turnaround time, felt like there was a period
of development in the mid sixties around the time and
immediately after the fair. Uh that that got a little
bit short trips. So in the first um enhancement or
a updated addition in OH nine, I got to cover

(22:10):
the Shipley Lie Decker House. And then, uh, chronically, when
I was looking through that same catalog of Victorian architecture,
I found another illustration that was the spitting image of
the Walt Disney World Haunted Mansion, and you know, so
that was in the new addition because when you see that,
you're like, there's no way Quod Coats wasn't influenced. Um.
And then of course we covered the big enhancements, which

(22:32):
of course we're floating Liota and uh, you know, the
the Black Widow Bride in the attic. And then so
that was the oh nine edition, which we build as
the fortieth anniversary edition, and then of course in the
subsequent years we have the hat Box post, we have
an entirely new incarnation of the Haunted Mansion Mystic manner, uh,

(22:52):
and then of course the Walt Disney World que enhancement
and the new final scene with the interactive hitch hiking.
So the Haunted Mansion has gotten infusions of new blood
no pun intended over the years, and that's been the
motivation for these multiple editions and the fact that people
just loved the attraction, which has given the book lasting
life beyond what what I think any of us would

(23:14):
have expected. And one of the major updates that you
just mentioned in the book is the new section on
Mystic manner, and this is a major departure from the
Haunted House plotline that the Haunted Mansion embodies in other
Magic Kingdoms. Can you talk a little bit about how
the culture geographically had to inform the change to a
more mystic adventure theme. Yeah. Absolutely. I got a lot

(23:36):
of wonderful insight into that from Joe Lann Cicero, who was,
you know, the portfolio leader for the for the Asia
parts at the time, Hong Kong Disneyland in particular, and
Robert Coltran, who's a creative director at w d I
UH and he's one of the unsung heroes of present
day w d I and I think he's our modern

(23:57):
day answer to Quad Coasts. I've been in meetings with
him where he's just a genius at layout. You know,
this guy can sit down and you know, take the
ideas and story and story that you've been playing around
with for an attract and and sometimes it seems within
minutes put it in a show box in a way
that that makes perfect sense and works logistically, you know,
with the footprint you have to work with. And both

(24:19):
of those guys spoke of how initially the park said, oh, well,
you know, Hong Kong Disneyland was ready for expansion, it
needed additional attractions, and one of the comments for management was, oh, well,
why don't we do the Haunted mansion. And when they
got into it, they realized that the Chinese view of
ghosts and the afterlife was very different from our Western

(24:40):
views of it. And it's even very very different from
the Japanese view of it, which uh, you know, they
view it more in the realm of fables and fairy tales,
which is why it's in fantasy Land in Tokyo. So
they knew they couldn't uh. What they said was the
swinging Graveyard jamboree just wasn't going to fly with the
Chinese audience, and that's what tip them more towards towards

(25:02):
this idea of mystical objects that kind of bring the
house to life around you. So it's not ghosts per se,
it's it's other worldly forces, but it's definitely uh, something
that's more accessible to the Chinese audience, and that's what
motivated that change. And that attraction has a really cool
track list system versus like the doom Buggies that those

(25:25):
of us who grew up in the US going to
the U s parks are used to can you talk
about that just a little bit. Yeah, absolutely that. You know,
the track list system is something that's kind of swept
the industry a little bit because it's a it's a
new way to tell stories, and it seemed like a
perfect match for the Mystic Manner story with the you know,
the title character Mystic. You know, he came up with

(25:45):
this invention, this contraction that you could tour his house
and his collections with. And you know, the other thing
to bear in mind, and this is something Robert and
and and company took full advantage of with the ride system,
was you want to use it for what it's capable of,
which is you depart from the linear path of an
omnimover and you can kind of split guests up so

(26:09):
that you you could have as many, you say as
four vehicles in one show space having a different experience,
which again makes the attraction repeatable. It's a variable experience
because you know, you never know quite sure where your
particular vehicle is going to go. Uh, And it's perfect
for something like the Mystic Manner storyline where things get

(26:29):
out of control pretty quickly, and it just it supports
the story you're telling. So like anything in film, television
and what we do in theme park design. You want
to use the tool to tell the story and not
just use it for its own sake. And uh, I
think they captured that perfectly with mystic manner. They used
the track list system the way it's meant to be used.

(26:50):
And another big enhancement that's happened in fairly recent years,
which you also referenced a little bit earlier, is that
amazing interactive que at the Walt Disney World hone in Mansion,
which has new mausoleums and there's new statutory in really
fun ways for guests to engage with the haunts and
like the dread Family, which I never noticed until I
read this new edition of your book about the murder

(27:12):
clues that are on those But now I'm going to
have to pluck that apart. As I and you mentioned
in the book how delicately and carefully those kinds of
updates have to be handled. So what is the process
for ensuring that those new elements are integrated in a
way that feels natural and still on theme with the
existing attraction. Well, I think that goes back to something

(27:35):
I heard John hence Stay on one of those episodes
of Disney Family Album. When he was he was gesturing
to Disneyland around him and he said, whenever we introduce
something new to this system, we have to make sure
that and I'm paraphrasing a little bit, but that it
compliments it and adds to it and doesn't detract from it.
And I think that holds true to a UH. And

(27:57):
especially when you're talking about something like one of the
Crown jewels like Haunt ad Mansion, Pirates of the Caribbean,
you have to be really careful about how you integrate
new elements. And the creative director for the new Extended Que,
Pete Carsilo is Uh. I think he's one of the
most talented guys working in the business today. And like
the imagineers of old, he's a true renaissance guy. I

(28:19):
mean he can sketch, he can paint, he can sculpt.
He was at you have an apprentice to Blaine Gibson,
so you have an incredible lineage here, you know, with
with Pete at the helm Uh and it was um
he was the one that told me something that I
thought was very interesting. He said, you have to I'm paraphrasing,
but you have respectful of the heritage obviously, but you

(28:41):
can't be slavish to it. He felt very strongly that
it was the obligation of today's imagineers to create new content,
new characters, tell news stories, illuminate additional members of that
uh happy Haunt family. And that's really where that came from.
And the fans and and just general guests the Light

(29:05):
have really embraced that in in the in the Graveyard,
but it really opened my eyes because it's a really
important point. You don't want to just recycle elements that
people already know or be so slavish to it that
you're just paying homage and not paving new ground. And

(29:25):
he felt that was really important, and he felt it
was an important press the next generation of designers that
comes through, You know that that they should feel emboldened
or you know, obligated almost too create new characters and
uh and and set the tone for the next generation

(29:45):
of fans that are coming through. And speaking of some
of these new characters that we've met, so we have
the dread family, which is not their official name, but
you do call them out as that in the book.
But I did not know uh that the names that
are associated with the Hitch hiking ghosts or not. They're like,
those aren't officially recognized. Yeah, it's interesting, uh, I am,

(30:06):
And this is one of where the truth may actually
be kind of lost to the mists of time. But
when I did the research for the first book, that
was when I discovered that they have no official names
in the script and the steel that that x Atensio wrote. Uh.
And I was always under the impression what we had
always heard was that Ezra, August, and Phineas were names

(30:29):
that were actually generated by cast members over the years.
We're not even exactly sure when or who. And then
what wound up happening was it they became uh accepted
over time. The same thing with with Master Gracie. You know,
that was just a reference to Yale Gracie that that
x put into the family plot, you know, as you're

(30:49):
going into the attraction, But it became such an accepted
part of the lore that when they made the Haunted
Mansion film, they're like, all right, well, the master of
the house has to be named Gracie because that's what
people no one expect. So I think that's what happened
with with Ezra, Athmius and Gus and now we're to
the point where, uh, Disney merchandise and other areas within
the company, whether they know it or not, have helped

(31:13):
legitimize it by actually having those names show up on
pieces of merchandise and other things like that. Then they're
so beloved. I just love those guys. Oh yeah, those
that to this day, they're my my favorite characters in
any attraction ever. I really love the Antie leave of
Its photo that they did with them, But I would
have switched the casting on Phineas and Gus, I think.

(31:35):
But I agree, I agree, and it's like, well, you
have ane of them, but you just kind of switched
a couple of them around. It seemed like a weird
I mean, it looks fantastic. It's a gorgeous picture, of course,
but I was like, I would That's not how I
would have played that. But I'm not a famous, super
awarded photographer either. Oh, Tracy, can I tell you I

(32:01):
feel so vindicated that he agrees with me on the
any leave of a portrait of the Hitchhiking Ghost. Sure,
I really like the insights he scared about how they
couldn't just drop the haunted mansion and the Hong Kong
Disneyland and how the local culture really wound up shaping
the new version of the attraction. And it's not really surprising,
I don't think to anybody that knows much about Disney

(32:22):
and how they operate, but it is really fascinating to
hear about the extreme care that Imagineering takes when they're
integrating new elements into beloved attractions. That's got to be
such a fine line to walk, because I know like
the community gets very very twitchy, the Disney community about
when their favorite things change. So before we get to

(32:42):
the conclusion of this episode, let's take another moment for
a word from a sponsor. Alrighty, Next up, we're gonna
get to the last segment of our interview with Jason Serell,
and talk is going to turn to a subject that
comes up a lot in our correspondence with fans, particularly
this year, and that is the return of the hat
Box Ghost. And you're also going to hear what Jason's

(33:03):
favorite part of the mansion is. Now that we're into
some of the newer steps, what are your thoughts on
the return of hat Box. Oh. I think that's absolutely fantastic.
I actually got to experience it on a business trip
a couple of months ago. And uh, I mean, especially

(33:24):
when you consider the lore of the hat Box Ghost
over the years, to finally see him, you know, take
his rightful place in the attraction was just uh, it
was just a treat. And uh. I hope that spreads.
I hope we see him elsewhere. But for now, at least,
it's it's great to see that the hat Box Ghost
has finally come home. I think it's so gorgeously executed.
It looks amazing. Yeah, absolutely, And I think that's a

(33:48):
testament to you know, these later generations of imagineers having
such a reverence for the design work of of Mark Davis,
blot Coats, EXPTENSI, oh, Yelle, Gracie really Crump, Harriet Burns,
you know, the list goes on. Uh, and especially considering
that that is an element that was generated by the
first generation of imagineers. You you can definitely see the

(34:09):
absolute to get it right well, And listeners to our
show know that I really love the Haunted Mansion and
and really love hat Box. So I probably get a
photo that someone took on their vacation at least every
other day where they're like, look I saw which I love.
It delights me to no end and saw them get
really amazing pictures because I've never pulled it off. I

(34:30):
mean I got the ride stopped right in front of
him at one point, and I still couldn't get a
good shot. But again I'm no any leave of its. Well,
and in cameras there are so much more sophisticated today.
Not you know again not just sound old, but growing
up going to Walt Disney World in the seventies, you
still almost have that inclination you're not supposed to be
doing that with the camera away. Yeah, we won't get

(34:52):
into the person I almost yelled at for sitting there
with their smartphone illuminated through the Haunted Mansion. Last time
I was there, I was like, are you you're here?
You're not even looking up? What are you doing? Angry
birds couldn't wait for seven minutes? Um, what are your
thoughts on the Honey Mansion holiday overlay? Because some people
love it and some people do not. Well, it's interesting

(35:14):
because I remember seeing it the first year. Uh it
was in the show, which I believe was two thousand one,
and uh I was out there again on a business
trip and and and made the trek down to Disneyland,
braving the five at rush hour, but it was a
short trip and I had to see it, and I
remember being incredibly pleasantly surprised that that the overlay was

(35:36):
as extensive as it was. I thought, all right, there's
probably gonna be a couple of flats somewhere and the
picture of Jack Skellington and there you go. But I
was blown away by the by how immersive and an
extense of a transformation it was. And then I think
when they saw what they had, uh, you know, they
just let loose and kept adding elements over the years,

(35:57):
like Boogie Boogie and some of the other um element
that they added in subsequent years. And uh, I think,
you know, sometimes I worried that if if you're only
going to get one trip to Disneyland, uh and and
that's your one shot at seeing the haunted mansion, it's
come during that time of year, you're not going to
get the traditional experience. But knowing how that local market

(36:19):
operates and and how Disneyland has to constantly keep things
fresh for the for the locals, um, you know, it
makes perfect sense. But I think that my personal opinion
on it is that the traditional version and Haunted Mansion Holiday,
you know, comfortably coexists. Yeah, for the year. Yeah, I
love the first time I saw it. I don't remember
what year it was. It's probably been nine or ten

(36:40):
years ago, so it hadn't been going on for too
many years. But when the doom Buggy makes that comes
out of the attic window and makes that turn and
you see those beautiful giant snow angels with the pumpkinheads,
I was like moved to tears by that it was
so gorgeous. Well, it is magical, and when you think
about it, unless there's something out there that I'm not
aware of, it's really your only chance to feel like

(37:03):
you're immersed in the world of Tim Burton. And that's
really the magic of the graveyard scene. I had a
I had not only the reaction you describe that when
you get down to the bottom and you see a
full size animated Jack Skellington there with zero I mean
that took my breath away because you're like iconic character

(37:24):
that I loved since now he's alive so to speak.
Not really, and I will say this is such a
like nerdy thing, but that's the one part of it
that I probably prefer to the standard because that skinny
dog makes me so sad every time. Every time, Like literally,
my husband knows to like shield me if I've forgotten

(37:44):
to turn my head. He said, don't look at the
starving dog. Don't look at the starving dog. It's like,
I know you're afraid, but give your friends from ground round. Right.
So I was glad when they do the parade, when
they do the Halloween parades, they actually have a beautiful,
very well fed bloodhound in that roleous. He's fine, he's
not Malnuri. Right. Um, gonna we're gonna get the A

(38:08):
s p A in your What is your favorite part
of the Haunted Mansion? You know that is such a
difficult question to answer, and yet it's also even as
I said that, an answer came to mind. It's it's
two things. Really. If I had to pick one, it
would have to be the ballroom scene, because to this day,

(38:31):
after you know, pretty five plus years, uh, it is
unmatched in terms of that spectacle. When you glide out
onto that balcony and just take in that entire scene,
it's almost overwhelming. And the fact that you know, turn
of the twentieth century stage magic is responsible for it
still blows my mind. But the combination of that, this

(38:53):
those moving figures, you know, the kinetics of the scene,
and the haunting arrangement of grim Any Ghost with the organists.
It's to this day, I never you know, and this
is after decades and decades, never get tired of that
moment when you come out of say once circle and
in the ballroom seemed just kind of unfolds before you.
It takes your breath away, really, And then a close

(39:16):
second is passing into that exit crip and seeing those
amazing three hitchhikers just sitting there subtly, you know, waving
their thumbs in the air, you know. And it's again
it's because of the design of those of the characters,
you know, the characters that that Mark Daviss sketch, the
characters that Blaine Gibson sculpted. I never get tired of

(39:37):
that in it's either it's so beautiful. I I'm with
you on the ballroom scene. I never feel like I
get to look at everything like I feel like I'm
a little bit manic trying to glance around and see
all my favorites, and and I was like, yeah, I
just have to get on again. That's fine. Well, that's
the magic of that attraction, and that's that's actually the
secret of any great theme park design is that there's

(39:59):
just an abundance of details that make any great theme
park experience repeatable. You want to come back because you
know there are things, you know of, hundreds of things
that you couldn't possibly have kept have caught on on
one visit or two visits or three visits. You know.
Pirates of the Caribbean is the same way. A lot
of the Disney classics are that way. You know, you

(40:20):
you want to go back because the imagineers have have
taken such great care in telling that story and crafting
that experience. Um and as I'm sure you know, there
are people in the world that are hardcore, honed mansion fans,
like they live for the mansion. I'm I would categorize
myself as borderline in that arena. But I wonder if

(40:40):
there's like a piece of trivia or knowledge that you
like to just pull out and wow even hardcore fans
with you know what, I'm gonna be a hundred percent
honest with you, that is hard, if not impossible, especially
in the age of the Internet. I mean you know,
there's such wonderful fan websites dedicated to the mansion. Uh.

(41:02):
And if I'm being honest, you know, any time I
go to those websites, I learned something new. And you know,
I've had conversations with fans over the years, and uh,
I've given presentations, talks, you know, all sorts of things,
and most of them I have to open by saying,
I'm glad you came, guys, but I'm probably not going
to tell you anything you don't already know, because that's
simply the age that we live in. And I think

(41:23):
that's a wonderful thing you've got. Um, Because I mentioned
the tight deadline that I had for the book, and
I knew when that first edition was published, as I
alluded to that I didn't tell the whole story. And
I would still be hard pressed to say that my
book is the definitive story because it's not. Um. I
don't know that you could tell it unless the Haunted Mansion,

(41:44):
and and God bless the person that does it, but
unless the Hot Mansion gets a seven hundred page Neil
Gabler treatment, you're never going to have the definitive story.
But UM, part of me loves that. I love the
fact that the fans, we all get to be continually
surprised over the years with new nuggets that come up,
or um, you know something that Roley Crump suddenly remembered

(42:04):
and tells a story that he didn't tell before. Um,
So I I really there is no answer to that question,
I because I don't think I can stump people. It
might have been easier in the earlier days, but definitely
not now. Uh, this is a weird question and you
may just go nope, Uh, did you ever get to
see Phantom Manner, which is the one that's installed in
France and case any listeners didn't know with the Vincent

(42:26):
Price narration, No, And that's that is one of the
heartbreaking things, especially you know, growing up as I did
with Vincent Price films, uh, you know, and and being
in my late teens or early twenties when the park
was in development and then under construction and then opened.
The notion that we actually they actually got Vincent Price

(42:47):
to be the ghost host was mind blowing. Um. But
I understand why they had to swap it out. But
that's one of those things where you know, there's there's
a lucky segment of the audience of the fandom that
got to experience that, similar to the people that got
to grow up with the Disneyland at the fifties and sixties,
or people like us who got to grow up with

(43:08):
Walt Disney World in the seventies and early eighties with Apcot,
They're they're just certain kind of golden age periods. And
you know, I think you asking that question made me
realize the new that every generation seems to get their
own right, So there's a sliver of the audience that
gets to say, yes, I got to experience that. I
got to hear it. I got to see hat Box

(43:29):
on his first day back exactly, which I actually did
quite by accident. Yeah, it happened during the Tinkerbell half
marathon weekend, which I was already there for, and so
when I realized those two were um going to happen
at the same time, I was perfectly delighted. And it
was very very nice because you know, hat Box was

(43:51):
in the attraction for minutes in the grand scheme of things,
and yet so many people know about him and the
lines for Hanned Mansion, which usually tend to hover anywhere
between depending on how busy the park is suddenly we're
hours long. But it was so exciting to talk to
other people in line. I didn't even mind because they
were like, we're so excited for hat Box, and I

(44:12):
was like, how can all these people know about this
one thing that was barely part of the ride. I
think it's because the Haunted Mansion has has become legend.
I think what you just said hits it right on
the head. You know, one new element in the Haunted
Mansion takes an attraction that's forty five plus years old
and instantly gives it a line that is a couple

(44:34):
hours long. To me, that that's the secret, and that's
the That's kind of the legacy of the Haunted Mansion.
It's always going to elevant, it's always going to be
an evergreen story. It's always going to be there for us.
I love it. And now my final question is is
Haunted Mansion your favorite attraction or do you have another? Ah,
there is another. Honestly, you get triple points for pulling

(44:58):
out a Star Wars line there by the way, a
slight mixed metaphor, but I stand by it, um well Haunted.
If I had to pick Haunted Mansion would definitely have
the edge. It is closely followed, if not equaled, by
Pirates of the Caribbean. To me, those are the Pirates
and Mansion represent that. That's the twin engine that has
powered the entire Disney theme park experience for me to

(45:19):
this day. And in case people don't know, you also
did a book about Pirates of the Caribbean. Yes, I did.
I did a book on Pirates. I'm still trying to
lobby them for a new edition of of that to
do the same thing that we did with Mansion. Uh.
And then I did a book on the Disney Mountains
that I'm also trying to talk to them about updating
with some of the new mountains that have been added.

(45:41):
You know, the marketplace for for books, specifically non fiction
titles like that is a lot tighter than it was
in the years that we first did them, but I'm
still out there trying to trying to make it happen.
I'm also trying to lobby them for e book additions
of all of those titles so that people, especially if
they didn't manage to snag Pirates or the Mountains, can

(46:03):
have access to this wonderful artwork. Um you know that
we try to fill the books with and and some
of these behind the scenes stories. So uh, once again
the book is The Haunted Mansion imagineering, a Disney classic,
and it is in its third edition, and it got
a brand new cover this time around that glows in
the dark, um which I'm oddly excited by these things,
but it's so fantastic. I just I'm so in love

(46:25):
with this book. Well, thank you. That was the reason.
That was the reason. You know, it's uh, this book
came about because it didn't exist, and uh, I and
and as you can imagine, countless others wanted to to
read it, wanted to see these images and hear these stories.
It's fabulous. Jason Currell, thank you so much for spending

(46:47):
time with us. I feel like we kind of hit
the lottery jackpot on this one. Well, I appreciate that,
I appreciate the kind words. It's it's my pleasure because
anytime I can help tell the Haunt Haunted Mansion story
and get it out there. And you know, I'm a
fan too, That's why the book this, you know, So
it's just as much of a pleasure for me to
talk about it as it is any other man. Oh so, Tracy,

(47:17):
I think that's my favorite interview of all time. Well,
and you definitely had it on your wish list to
interview and imagineer to be on the show. I remember
when you and I were interviewed about about wish lists
for the show, that was your top thing. Yeah, and Uh,
in particular, he's someone who is because he is a
writer and comes at it from that point of view.
He's just someone I've really admired and I love that

(47:39):
he has always been a proponent of, Hey, you don't
have to be an artist, you don't have to be
a visual artist. You can contribute and be part of
something like this through different avenues, which I really like.
And we've had some really great guests along the way.
But getting to geek out about my beloved Hona Mansion
with one of the people who knows it so very
very well, it's just a little slice of heaven. And
I promise to you, I had no idea when I

(48:03):
started this interview that he too was a Vincent Price fan.
When I asked about that short lived narration that Vincent
Price did for the Disneyland Paris iteration of the attraction.
So one more time. That book is The Haunted Mansion Imagineering,
a Disney classic, and I highly recommended to everyone because
it is delightful. I love it. Do you also have

(48:25):
some listener mail I do. This particular piece is from
our listener, Heather uh and she sent us a lovely
card which I will talk about in a moment, and
some cool pictures. And she also included a letter and says,
I wanted to start by telling you that I absolutely
love your podcast. I started listening when I was on
maternity lead last September when my son was born, and
I have been listening ever since. She talks a little

(48:48):
bit about you know, things she likes. I'm always a
little uncomfortable reading crazy things, she says. I also wanted
to thank you for helping me get back in shape.
I too, am a runner like Holly, and I believe
you said you run or have run to correct Tracy.
That is correct all answer for Tracy. After having my son,
it took me a long time to get my feet
back on the pavement. But with your podcast, I feel

(49:08):
like I can step outside of mom mode for a
little while and get my run in while learning something new.
I sometimes even run with my son in to and
have the podcast in the stroller so he can hear it.
Even though he's only a year old, I feel like
he's learned so much more than kids ten times his age.
I know it's strange to some to listen to history
and not music while running, but it really helps my
long runs go by so much better. I just got

(49:30):
done with a ten mile run today while learning about
the Black Hole of Calcutta and Emily Nurder. That particular
episode was especially appreciated because I too, am a female mathematician.
I'm a mathematics professor at a private university, and I
love hearing about my people. Did you know that we
in America abbreviate mathematics differently than other English speaking countries.
I have learned this from my colleagues at different conferences

(49:52):
over the years. We say math, whereas most people from
other English speaking countries say maths plural. Since math is
short or mathematics, it does make sense that the abbreviation
would be plural as well. I always tell my students
that so they correctly refer to it as maths not math. Uh.
Sorry for going on so much, but I just wanted
to let you know how much. I appreciate what you do.

(50:13):
Please keep up the good work. More podcasts about mathematicians
would be great. And then she gives us some good
suggestions which I won't read in case they end up
being on it. And she also sent us a cute
picture of her and her little boy as they are
out and about and one that her husband photoshopped of
her son as part of a nineteen twenties skyscraper construction site,

(50:34):
which is pretty witty. And she sent us a really
really lovely card which is the representation of the golden spirals,
so Fibonacci sequence people, this card would make you happy.
It's absolutely gorgeous. Thank you so much, Heather. I love
that we get to hear from women mathematicians after we
talk about women mathematicians, and just any time that we

(50:55):
kind of touch on something that is vital to someone's
day to day life for their livelihood and they're not like, hey,
you jerks, you got it all wrong. It makes me happy. Uh.
If you would like to write to us, you absolutely can.
That is at History Podcast at house works dot com.
You can also connect with us at Facebook dot com,
slash mist in History on Twitter at mist in History

(51:15):
at pinterest dot com, slash mist in History, at misston
History dot tumbler dot com, and on Instagram. We are
at mist in History. If you would like to go
to our parents site, how stuff Works, and you can
type in the words Haunted Mansion in the search bar,
you will get ten classic amusement park rides, and the
Haunted Mansion is one of those. If you would like
to visit us on the web, our website is missed
in history dot com. We would love to see you visit.

(51:37):
You will find show notes for all of the episodes
since Tracy and I have been on the podcast. You
will find an archive of every episode of all time,
going back to the beginning of the show, and occasionally
some other little goodies. Once again, you can visit us
at our parents site, how stuff Works dot com and
at our personal site missed in history dot com. We're
here to see you there for more on this opens

(52:00):
of other topics, is it how stuff Works dot com.
E