September 26, 2025 • 15 mins
Holly talks about the many survivor accounts of the Medusa shipwreck, which were questioned regarding bias and intent. There's also a follow-up on what happened to Géricault's son.
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Fry and
I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about shipwrecks, which are
often people's favorite stories, although I don't know how much
(00:23):
they'd love this one. It's a particularly gruesome one. It's grizzly,
it's rough, and I mean I cut for time a
lot of grizzly things. So yeah, and then we talked about,
you know, the aftermath of that shipwreck and Teyo Doorgerico,
who's work I'm in love with anyway, and got to
talk about him in his own little grizzly fascination with
(00:44):
this whole thing, yeah, which is a little bit yucky. Well,
I mean I understand like becoming kind of morbidly fixated
on something like this. Yeah, Like I'm sort of thinking
about how when the submersible imploded, Yeah, everybody wanted all
(01:05):
the details. Everyone wanted all the details. And then when
the hearings happened about the implosion of the submersible with
the Titan, is that what it was called, Like the
hearings happened, and like everyone wanted all the details from
the hearings. Not everyone obviously, we know what I mean,
and like, yeah, then you know documentary is about it people.
(01:27):
I feel like this, if the Medusa had happened now similarly,
would have been like a thing that everybody was fixated
on trying to detail of for sure. I mean it's
really interesting too because we do have very detailed survivor accounts. Right.
(01:48):
We didn't explicitly mention it in the episode, but we
did talk about there being counter accounts and whatnot and
people trying to put forth their own version of it events.
But like all of these accounts have been questioned in
terms of the bias of the narrative, Like there are
even people who have accused Couryer and Savignye of making
(02:14):
the raft sound worse than it was, even though everyone
found these men skin and bones like a absolute mess
when they finally were rescued, like there was no doubting
that they had been through this terrible ordeal, But there
are still people that question the accuracy of their version
of events. Yeah. Yeah, I was struck by just the
(02:40):
kid falling overboard near the beginning, and how people still
fall off ships today and it can be really hard
to find people because ships move fast. Here are on
a ship. You see somebody fall overboard, you need to
point at them and look at them and el to
someone else that someone has gone over, Like don't take
(03:04):
your eyes off them. Yeah, don't break your visual line. Yeah,
avoid it because it's really hard to find people in
the ocean. So like, it doesn't surprise me at all
that they couldn't find them and they had to give up. Yeah,
me either. It's just heartbreaking though, Like the many things
that happen on this whole thing, the one thing that
is I think really compelling about the various survivor accounts,
(03:29):
right like Charlotte Picard's account, which she wrote a little
bit later down the road. She didn't write it right
after they were rescued because she was still quite young.
Then really does validate the experience of like the crew
member's account. M And it's good because it's from a
very different point of view, you know what I mean.
It's like one of the wealthier families that was going
(03:49):
to be part of this like new you know, poorly intended,
but you know, this new colony set up for her
to be like, oh yes, we all recognized that Chow
Marae was like dicey as hell was very good. It
made it seem not just like people that were maybe
bristling against command or you know, not right, like for
(04:11):
her to also be like he trusted this guy that
we all knew was a crazy loser, Like we knew
he did not have any kind of actual information or expertise,
but he trusted him even though we all were like,
what are you doing. Yeah, that's the other thing that
really really gets me in this and we mentioned it
a little bit, but there were so many people saying
to chow marae, yo, we're in trouble, Like I am
(04:37):
a you know, lifelong sailor. I have been on a
lot of ships. I'm telling you right now, we're in trouble,
and him going, no, we're not. My friend Reshore says fine,
We're not fine. I'm like, you know, in a world
where people are disregarding experts in things in favor of
(04:59):
their own opinions being made into what they think is fact.
It was a little a bit of a gut punch
at times in some of those accounts. I also feel
like I've obviously never been in a situation like this
where we were on a ship with people's lives in
our hands at all. Right, My jobs have always been
(05:21):
way more inconsequential in terms of the chair, in terms
of life and limb. But I have one thousand percent
and had many occasions where there was a decision being
made or a change being contemplated, and a lot of
people have been like, hey, this is a bad idea
(05:41):
and here's why, and that was like just not listened
to or heard. Yeah, yeah, it stinks. One thing that
I did not include that is also harrowing. Even after
the raft group was rescued and they were put aboard
the Argus, the Argus was still carrying people from the boats,
(06:04):
the other lifeboats, so it was quite crowded and some
of them had to sleep in like these makeshift quarters
that were like down in the you know, lower parts
of the ship. There was actually a fire on board
that threatened their lives, and like they mentioned in the
(06:25):
crew account, like so they we kind of got saved
twice because some of their crew was on it and
like put out the fires. But they were literally not
put in like cushy, Oh my gosh, you've been through
so much, like let's make sure you're taking care of conditions.
It was literally like, there's a corner over there by
the boiler. You could probably curl up over there if
you want, like these poor men. It's interesting that book
(06:50):
that we mentioned by Jonathan Miles, if you want an
in depth dig in on that. I was kind of
using that to triangulate, Like I was going off a
lot of the coryar and seven year and the Charlotte
Pcard accounts, and then I would triangulate with that and
be like, is he interpreting this the same way I am,
so that I would like kind of get like the
(07:10):
whole thing with guns versus cannons. That book says it's
canons that they were trying to shoot off and that
didn't have powder, but I don't. I said that was
one of the things that I was looking at. But
one of the big things that he points out is
that there had been prior to this instances of shipwrecks
(07:32):
or similarly harrowing circumstances where people had turned to cannibalism
to survive, and how there was like this precedent that like,
obviously that's not great, but people give a little bit
of grace understanding the situation. But I think that too
added this whole other layer of like grim fascination to
the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, And even in the coryar
(07:56):
and seven year account, there's a really really upsetting passage
where they talk about having to survive off of the
body of a person who had been holding their hands
like two days earlier, and it's just so upsetting. Yeah,
like that he was one of their crewmates that was like,
we're going to get through this. We're going to you
(08:17):
know that they were all trying to and it didn't
work out. There's an interesting story here about Jericho and
abolition that I also didn't get into because he was
an abolitionist. And what's very interesting is his choice because
(08:43):
he did study this whole case so in depth, as
we noted, he talked to the survivors, he made diagrams
of the rafts, so he understood what he needed to paint.
But he made a very deliberate choice in changing up
the details of what went on when he created his painting,
which is that in the painting raft of the Medusa,
there are three black men on the raft. There was
(09:06):
only one black man on the raft, and that has
long been perceived as part of his effort to draw
attention to the need for abolition, and as we said,
he was planning to do a large scale painting, possibly
as big as this one, about the slave trade. So
(09:31):
that was kind of an interesting, yeah, interesting thing. And
he had actually hired a model. I didn't write it down,
and I don't remember where he was from, but he
hired a black man to model for him, who is
the model of two of the people on the boat,
but like they're at different angles, so it doesn't look
like a repeat person. But that was kind of interesting,
just an interesting detail about him. Yeah, there's another interesting
(09:55):
thing about his son. Okay, So he and Alexandrine had
this son that was surrendered as unknown parents, but of
course people knew and when Jericho and some people had
clearly kept up with what was going on with that boy.
(10:15):
Because when Jericho knew that he was dying, he made
his will, and he made his will so that his father,
who was still alive, would inherit everything. But his father
in turn made a new will of his own where
everything that Jericho had willed him went to that boy. Oh,
(10:38):
so that even though there had been a disconnect, he
still got his father's legacy, which is kind of cool. Yeah,
it's a cool little trip. There is a very sad
detail about Coriard that was also fascinating to me. Okay,
as we said seven year, it seemed like wanted to
(10:58):
not even though he was he was a participant in
the multiple editions of the book that kept being published
year after year after year, but he just was not
as like, he did not get as politically active as
Courard and whatnot. So I feel like I don't have
as much information about what his life turned out to be.
But apparently Coriard had gotten married, clearly adored his wife,
(11:22):
but he did this very weird thing after his wife
died where he had like a dress mannequin that he
kept in his room and he changed her clothes like
with his wife's clothes all the time, Okay, because he
just wanted to feel like she was close to him. Yeah.
And it's so sort of odd and a little like
(11:42):
from a Hitchcock film and an also sort of endearing
in a strange way. Well, based on the gruesomeness of
the episode. When you started describing this, I took it
to a very different You were worried that it was
going to be a different thing. Yeah, Yeah, And when
you said benign in that regard. It hurts no one,
you said, clothes, I was relieved this is not the
(12:05):
cook to thief his wife and her lover in any
kind of way. Yeah. Yeah, it's so sweet and sad
and a little creepy, but also I can understand it.
Mm hmmm. I don't know. I just he did not
have an easy life, and like there was I mean,
he got called in front of the court so many
times for you know, his treasonous printings. Like his life
(12:28):
was not easy and he clearly. I mean, that's the
thing that isn't talked about much in any of these
even though it's discussed in some ways, but not at
the depth that we would understand it today. These people
that survive this experience like trauma that will change your
brain mm hmm. And like there isn't a ton of
(12:50):
discussion about their mental condition and their mental health in
the years that follow. But that's where I really like,
that whole three years in prison and then you get
to go live your life in the country. I'm like, cool, cool, cool.
(13:11):
There are other people that are never gonna outlive like
the hell you put them through, right, Because sometimes inept
people don't actually get as punished as they should be,
which is frustrating to all of us. Anyway, I'm fascinated
by this case, and we'll probably keep reading more things
(13:31):
about it because I can't stop because I'm fascinated. And
also the art. And I will say, if you get
a chance to go to the loop and you see
this piece of art, it will rock you back. It
is so striking and so moving and also just huge. Listen,
I'm a girl who loves huge art. I love it,
(13:52):
and so this is very much up. Anyway. I remember
studying this in high school and being like, what is that? Like?
I immediately was obsessed with it in my r glasses.
So I'm glad I got a chance to talk about
it because it's very good. And then you find out
why it's so good, and it's like, ooh, still really good.
So now I want to go back to Paris just
(14:13):
to see it again, because it's been a minute. That's
what's up. May we never live through such heroic moments.
That's a good wish we all have goodness. Yeah, if
you are coming up on your weekend where you have
time off, I hope that quite the opposite happens that
you have delightful moments, and you have time of joy
and laughter and rest and relaxation and hopefully fun with
(14:34):
your friends or whoever's close to you, And that you
pet a kiddy if that's your thing, and that you
eat delicious stuff. Maybe have some cake. Cake is delicious.
If it's not your weekend coming up, I bet you
could still sneak a piece of cake in there, or
whatever it is that you eat that makes you feel
very happy and that delights your palette. We will be
(14:56):
right back here tomorrow with a classic episode, and then
on Monday we will have something brand new. Stuff you
missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class, a production
of iHeartRadio, Hello and Happy Friday. Am Holly Fry and
I'm Tracy V. Wilson. We talked about shipwrecks, which are
often people's favorite stories, although I don't know how much
(00:23):
they'd love this one. It's a particularly gruesome one. It's grizzly,
it's rough, and I mean I cut for time a
lot of grizzly things. So yeah, and then we talked about,
you know, the aftermath of that shipwreck and Teyo Doorgerico,
who's work I'm in love with anyway, and got to
talk about him in his own little grizzly fascination with
(00:44):
this whole thing, yeah, which is a little bit yucky. Well,
I mean I understand like becoming kind of morbidly fixated
on something like this. Yeah, Like I'm sort of thinking
about how when the submersible imploded, Yeah, everybody wanted all
(01:05):
the details. Everyone wanted all the details. And then when
the hearings happened about the implosion of the submersible with
the Titan, is that what it was called, Like the
hearings happened, and like everyone wanted all the details from
the hearings. Not everyone obviously, we know what I mean,
and like, yeah, then you know documentary is about it people.
(01:27):
I feel like this, if the Medusa had happened now similarly,
would have been like a thing that everybody was fixated
on trying to detail of for sure. I mean it's
really interesting too because we do have very detailed survivor accounts. Right.
(01:48):
We didn't explicitly mention it in the episode, but we
did talk about there being counter accounts and whatnot and
people trying to put forth their own version of it events.
But like all of these accounts have been questioned in
terms of the bias of the narrative, Like there are
even people who have accused Couryer and Savignye of making
(02:14):
the raft sound worse than it was, even though everyone
found these men skin and bones like a absolute mess
when they finally were rescued, like there was no doubting
that they had been through this terrible ordeal, But there
are still people that question the accuracy of their version
of events. Yeah. Yeah, I was struck by just the
(02:40):
kid falling overboard near the beginning, and how people still
fall off ships today and it can be really hard
to find people because ships move fast. Here are on
a ship. You see somebody fall overboard, you need to
point at them and look at them and el to
someone else that someone has gone over, Like don't take
(03:04):
your eyes off them. Yeah, don't break your visual line. Yeah,
avoid it because it's really hard to find people in
the ocean. So like, it doesn't surprise me at all
that they couldn't find them and they had to give up. Yeah,
me either. It's just heartbreaking though, Like the many things
that happen on this whole thing, the one thing that
is I think really compelling about the various survivor accounts,
(03:29):
right like Charlotte Picard's account, which she wrote a little
bit later down the road. She didn't write it right
after they were rescued because she was still quite young.
Then really does validate the experience of like the crew
member's account. M And it's good because it's from a
very different point of view, you know what I mean.
It's like one of the wealthier families that was going
(03:49):
to be part of this like new you know, poorly intended,
but you know, this new colony set up for her
to be like, oh yes, we all recognized that Chow
Marae was like dicey as hell was very good. It
made it seem not just like people that were maybe
bristling against command or you know, not right, like for
(04:11):
her to also be like he trusted this guy that
we all knew was a crazy loser, Like we knew
he did not have any kind of actual information or expertise,
but he trusted him even though we all were like,
what are you doing. Yeah, that's the other thing that
really really gets me in this and we mentioned it
a little bit, but there were so many people saying
to chow marae, yo, we're in trouble, Like I am
(04:37):
a you know, lifelong sailor. I have been on a
lot of ships. I'm telling you right now, we're in trouble,
and him going, no, we're not. My friend Reshore says fine,
We're not fine. I'm like, you know, in a world
where people are disregarding experts in things in favor of
(04:59):
their own opinions being made into what they think is fact.
It was a little a bit of a gut punch
at times in some of those accounts. I also feel
like I've obviously never been in a situation like this
where we were on a ship with people's lives in
our hands at all. Right, My jobs have always been
(05:21):
way more inconsequential in terms of the chair, in terms
of life and limb. But I have one thousand percent
and had many occasions where there was a decision being
made or a change being contemplated, and a lot of
people have been like, hey, this is a bad idea
(05:41):
and here's why, and that was like just not listened
to or heard. Yeah, yeah, it stinks. One thing that
I did not include that is also harrowing. Even after
the raft group was rescued and they were put aboard
the Argus, the Argus was still carrying people from the boats,
(06:04):
the other lifeboats, so it was quite crowded and some
of them had to sleep in like these makeshift quarters
that were like down in the you know, lower parts
of the ship. There was actually a fire on board
that threatened their lives, and like they mentioned in the
(06:25):
crew account, like so they we kind of got saved
twice because some of their crew was on it and
like put out the fires. But they were literally not
put in like cushy, Oh my gosh, you've been through
so much, like let's make sure you're taking care of conditions.
It was literally like, there's a corner over there by
the boiler. You could probably curl up over there if
you want, like these poor men. It's interesting that book
(06:50):
that we mentioned by Jonathan Miles, if you want an
in depth dig in on that. I was kind of
using that to triangulate, Like I was going off a
lot of the coryar and seven year and the Charlotte
Pcard accounts, and then I would triangulate with that and
be like, is he interpreting this the same way I am,
so that I would like kind of get like the
(07:10):
whole thing with guns versus cannons. That book says it's
canons that they were trying to shoot off and that
didn't have powder, but I don't. I said that was
one of the things that I was looking at. But
one of the big things that he points out is
that there had been prior to this instances of shipwrecks
(07:32):
or similarly harrowing circumstances where people had turned to cannibalism
to survive, and how there was like this precedent that like,
obviously that's not great, but people give a little bit
of grace understanding the situation. But I think that too
added this whole other layer of like grim fascination to
the whole thing. Yeah. Yeah, And even in the coryar
(07:56):
and seven year account, there's a really really upsetting passage
where they talk about having to survive off of the
body of a person who had been holding their hands
like two days earlier, and it's just so upsetting. Yeah,
like that he was one of their crewmates that was like,
we're going to get through this. We're going to you
(08:17):
know that they were all trying to and it didn't
work out. There's an interesting story here about Jericho and
abolition that I also didn't get into because he was
an abolitionist. And what's very interesting is his choice because
(08:43):
he did study this whole case so in depth, as
we noted, he talked to the survivors, he made diagrams
of the rafts, so he understood what he needed to paint.
But he made a very deliberate choice in changing up
the details of what went on when he created his painting,
which is that in the painting raft of the Medusa,
there are three black men on the raft. There was
(09:06):
only one black man on the raft, and that has
long been perceived as part of his effort to draw
attention to the need for abolition, and as we said,
he was planning to do a large scale painting, possibly
as big as this one, about the slave trade. So
(09:31):
that was kind of an interesting, yeah, interesting thing. And
he had actually hired a model. I didn't write it down,
and I don't remember where he was from, but he
hired a black man to model for him, who is
the model of two of the people on the boat,
but like they're at different angles, so it doesn't look
like a repeat person. But that was kind of interesting,
just an interesting detail about him. Yeah, there's another interesting
(09:55):
thing about his son. Okay, So he and Alexandrine had
this son that was surrendered as unknown parents, but of
course people knew and when Jericho and some people had
clearly kept up with what was going on with that boy.
(10:15):
Because when Jericho knew that he was dying, he made
his will, and he made his will so that his father,
who was still alive, would inherit everything. But his father
in turn made a new will of his own where
everything that Jericho had willed him went to that boy. Oh,
(10:38):
so that even though there had been a disconnect, he
still got his father's legacy, which is kind of cool. Yeah,
it's a cool little trip. There is a very sad
detail about Coriard that was also fascinating to me. Okay,
as we said seven year, it seemed like wanted to
(10:58):
not even though he was he was a participant in
the multiple editions of the book that kept being published
year after year after year, but he just was not
as like, he did not get as politically active as
Courard and whatnot. So I feel like I don't have
as much information about what his life turned out to be.
But apparently Coriard had gotten married, clearly adored his wife,
(11:22):
but he did this very weird thing after his wife
died where he had like a dress mannequin that he
kept in his room and he changed her clothes like
with his wife's clothes all the time, Okay, because he
just wanted to feel like she was close to him. Yeah.
And it's so sort of odd and a little like
(11:42):
from a Hitchcock film and an also sort of endearing
in a strange way. Well, based on the gruesomeness of
the episode. When you started describing this, I took it
to a very different You were worried that it was
going to be a different thing. Yeah, Yeah, And when
you said benign in that regard. It hurts no one,
you said, clothes, I was relieved this is not the
(12:05):
cook to thief his wife and her lover in any
kind of way. Yeah. Yeah, it's so sweet and sad
and a little creepy, but also I can understand it.
Mm hmmm. I don't know. I just he did not
have an easy life, and like there was I mean,
he got called in front of the court so many
times for you know, his treasonous printings. Like his life
(12:28):
was not easy and he clearly. I mean, that's the
thing that isn't talked about much in any of these
even though it's discussed in some ways, but not at
the depth that we would understand it today. These people
that survive this experience like trauma that will change your
brain mm hmm. And like there isn't a ton of
(12:50):
discussion about their mental condition and their mental health in
the years that follow. But that's where I really like,
that whole three years in prison and then you get
to go live your life in the country. I'm like, cool, cool, cool.
(13:11):
There are other people that are never gonna outlive like
the hell you put them through, right, Because sometimes inept
people don't actually get as punished as they should be,
which is frustrating to all of us. Anyway, I'm fascinated
by this case, and we'll probably keep reading more things
(13:31):
about it because I can't stop because I'm fascinated. And
also the art. And I will say, if you get
a chance to go to the loop and you see
this piece of art, it will rock you back. It
is so striking and so moving and also just huge. Listen,
I'm a girl who loves huge art. I love it,
(13:52):
and so this is very much up. Anyway. I remember
studying this in high school and being like, what is that? Like?
I immediately was obsessed with it in my r glasses.
So I'm glad I got a chance to talk about
it because it's very good. And then you find out
why it's so good, and it's like, ooh, still really good.
So now I want to go back to Paris just
(14:13):
to see it again, because it's been a minute. That's
what's up. May we never live through such heroic moments.
That's a good wish we all have goodness. Yeah, if
you are coming up on your weekend where you have
time off, I hope that quite the opposite happens that
you have delightful moments, and you have time of joy
and laughter and rest and relaxation and hopefully fun with
(14:34):
your friends or whoever's close to you, And that you
pet a kiddy if that's your thing, and that you
eat delicious stuff. Maybe have some cake. Cake is delicious.
If it's not your weekend coming up, I bet you
could still sneak a piece of cake in there, or
whatever it is that you eat that makes you feel
very happy and that delights your palette. We will be
(14:56):
right back here tomorrow with a classic episode, and then
on Monday we will have something brand new. Stuff you
missed in History Class is a production of iHeartRadio. For
more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Stuff You Missed in History Class News
Hosts And Creators
Holly Frey
Tracy Wilson
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